Controversy In Fort Myers
Posted on March 3rd, 2008 – 9:22 AMBy La Velle
The Twins aren’t happy with the Red Sox.
They want today’s B-game at City of Palms Park to count in the Mayor’s Cup standings. Red Sox officials, however, claim that the game won’t count because admission isn’t being charged.
But concession stands are open, there’s a small crowd on hand and the national anthem has been played. Smells official to this well-traveled, well-worn scribe.
“They’ll say it counts if they win,” Twins manager Ron Gardenhire said. “If they lose, they’ll say it doesn’t count…and we’ll do the same.”
The Red Sox lead the series 2-1 and another win clinches the cup.
The only thing different was that I was in the Twins dugout seconds before the first pitch. A coach asked me if I was dressing out. Jason Kubel said I could sit next to him on the bench if I promised not to say anything.
Me? Be quiet? “Fat chance of that,” I said to myself as I headed for the press box.
Here’s the Twins’ lineup. Josh Beckett is starting for the Red Sox. He’s already swearing on the mound in the first inning. He needed 26 pitches, nine to Matt Tolbert, as the Twins scored an unearned run to take a 1-0 lead.
1. Denard Span, CF. 2. Matt Tolbert, SS.3. Jason Kubel, DH. 4. John Knott, 1B. 5. Garrett Jones, LF. 6. Alejandro Machado, 2B. 7. Jose Morales, C. 8. Howie Clark, 3B. 9. Jason Pridie, RF. Pitching: Baker, then Crain and a little Rincon.
134 Responses to "Controversy In Fort Myers"
Lavelle sounds angry, like he was personally slighted. What did we miss, Lavelle? Kubel got you down?
Is Pridie going to get more time in CF or does it look like Gomez is going to get handed the job?
Baker: Three scoreless innings. Crain entering the game now.
Twins lead 2-0 heading into bottom of the fourth.
Jason Pridie has a RBI double…
I hope it’s Pridie or even Span. Here’s why.
Pridie is a fully developed player, that is, his skills are about as good as they’re going to get. More ML at bats will refine things but he’s really got nothing left to learn.
Gomez on the other hand, may be the better player right now, but has much to learn skillwise as a hitter. Were we a legitimate contender (like the Mets of last year) and were he our best CF (he probably is) then you let him learn at the ML level. But we really shouldn’t be playing for this year. Let him work hard on his fundamental hitting skills in Rochester where the pressure will be less and where his service time clock will not be running.
Thanks so much for the update, LaVelle! I wanted to know how the “B” game was going. 
LaValle…What can you tell us about the reports that Liriano is overweight?
Crain, in his first outing of the spring, gave up a run but, based on the sound of the catcher’s mitt, he was throwing fairly hard.
Rincon is in. Twins lead 2-1.
Yes, thanks. I can’t get a box score online. So it’s nice to get some news. How’s Machado doing?
Lavelle, how do you think span is doing so far in spring training do you see alot more confidence in him so far last year down in rochester he seemed to lose a bit of his confidence. thanks.
“Rincon is in.”
There goes the lead!
LaVelle,
Over on the Vikings Blog, they have links to the hometown team pages for all the teams in the NFL. It’s pretty slick, any chance we could get hooked up with something similar here?
Seems like a good intern job to me!
another hour til the A game w/ the reds-lavelle ..whats your read on the cf battle…seems like pridies bat is pretty solid…span hasnt looked bad either…but im betting and i hope they send gomez to AAA to develop and learn “twins”baseball….at least to start the year..if he develops quick, then bring him back, but start down there
Red Sox score a run off of Amando Gabino to tie the game at 2-2.
All three CF’s have had good moments in camp. I like what I see in Pridie. I think the coaching staff watches Gomez’s skills and wonder if they can take him north and develop his hitting as the season goes along. The arm and the wheels have them drooling, but he’s got to make adjustments to hit breaking balls.
Right now, I’d rank them Gomez, Pridie then Span - and Span hasn’t played poorly at all. Pridie intrigues me…
To heck with that, `learn to play Twins Baseball.’ stuff. You want Gomez to use that 6-4 frame and clobber balls all over the league. You want him to become a power-speed monster. And as soon as he adjusts his approach, he’ll take off.
I’m confused i thought the Twins were playing the reds at noon today
Amen to that La Velle…let him grow to his full potential, don’t reel him in for the short term.
As for the options in CF. I find it interesting that Span and Gomez are getting all the primary playing time in CF. Gomez getting the primary look. Almost feels like Pridie is being left behind, even though he is playing really good ball right now.
Yeah what is Twins Baseball? Is it like Punto’s offense? Punto thinks he can be a candidate to lead off to demonstrate what Twins Baseball would be!
I agree with LaVelle. It’s the same debate every year with a phenom. Will he learn more in AAA or in the majors? I think every case is a little different. It depends on the kid’s attitude, his work habits, his desire, his tools. Lots of stuff. I think Gomez is the kind of kid who will thrive against tougher competition and will learn more with major league coaches than he can learn with the minor league staff against inferior pitching.
The only thing that worries me is hitting lead-off. That’s a lot of pressure to put on him right out of the gate. Ideally, he’d hit eighth for a while until he gets his feet wet. I would say the same thing about Pridie or Span. None of these kids is an OBP machine, at least judging from their minor league records. But who bats lead-off if not the CF?
Game ends in a 2-2 tie.
The best part was getting Crain on the mound. He did give up a run but results are secondary in this case. He said he felt good and threw all his pitches.
How about…
1. Mauer
2. Kubel
3. Cuddyer
4. Morneau
5. Young
6. Lamb
7. Harris
8. Gomez
9. Everett
Gomez needs to go back to AAA to learn how to hit. It has nothing to do with Twins Baseball.
Dave,
On what do you base your opinion? I look at the numbers and he looks ready to put up a .750 OPS. I think he’s more ready than Pridie or Span as a hitter, not to mention fielding and base running. I’d like to hear from you why you think otherwise. Anybody can express an opinion. Let’s see some reasoning.
Gomez is a super(over?)confident kid.
I don’t think he will accept instruction from Minor League coaches and batting instructors as readily as he would from the MLB staff.
If the Twins’ brass agrees with that personality assessment, they should keep him with the Twins.
If they disagree, they can send him to AAA and get the same results.
cmathewson
LEN wrote exactly why Gomez should go back down to AAA. He can’t hit an off speed pitch.
The real reason I like sending him down to AAA for half the season is that it will save a year of FA elgibility. I know that seems like a dumb reason, but the Twins aren’t going to push for the playoffs anyway so why not think logically and look to the future.
Snepp,
I like that lineup against RHP, except I would flip Everett and Gomez.Cuddyer and Young can eventually be flipped.
it seems like most aaa players have trouble hitting a ml breaking pitch at first after being able to hit the aa/aaa breaking pitch. the reason most pitchers are in the ml’s is they have a real breaking pitch not a aa/aaa caliber one. how long did it take hunter? the angels might still be waiting! stick him in the lineup and take the good with the bad the only way he’ll ever learn if he will learn.
IF Gomez won’t listen to his AAA coaches and hitting instructors, he will not learn to hit anything.
Do you not think the Mets coaches tried to fix his problems with the same instruction as will be dispensed by the Twins coaches?
It takes teachers AND A WILLING STUDENT for the learning process to succeed.
He can’t hit an off speed pitch.
See, he might struggle with off-speed pitches. But show me a hitter who doesn’t. Mauer, perhaps. But just about everyone else on the team struggles with offspeed pitches. I just look at his line from last June in the majors: .299/.351/.403, before he broke his hammate bone, and I see a kid who has some ability to hit offspeed pitches.
To say Gomez should go down is to claim that either Pridie or Span should stay. That means they can hit MLB offspeed pitches. Neither has played a game in the MLB. At least Gomez has demonstrated some ability at the MLB level.
If the Twins had a veteran center fielder in camp, I could see people’s arguments. But none of these kids is a polished product. From my vantage point, Gomez is the most polished.
There’s a difference between struggling and not being able to do something.
It’s like saying Mauer and Punto both struggled hitting last year. The difference is Mauer can still hit and Punto can’t.
sane; are you basing your assessement that he won’t listen to coaches on hearsay or some facts. and he is only 22 still very young.
Punto can’t hit a breaking ball or a fastball and started for the team all last year.
On a serious note, do you think the twins will carry two of (Gomez, Span, Pridie) on the major league roster or just the one who wins the starting spot?
gobble,
IMO the difference between an MLB breaking ball an a Minor League breaking ball is LOCATION ONLY.
Breaking balls thrown by established MLB pitchers end up in the strike zone (and not in the middle of it) forcing the hitters to DEAL WITH IT.
Breaking balls thrown by Minor League pitchers often end up outside the strike zone, so minor league hitters can take the pitch and are not FORCED to learn how to hit them.
gobble,
As I said in my 12:12 post, the Twins brass has to evaluate his willingness to listen to AAA coaches.
My evaluation is very cursory from reading his quotes and watching his interviews. I know nothing for sure.
I’m listening to the radio. Harris bobbled a hard hit potential doubleplay ball by Griffey that would have ended the inning. Got Grif at first. Run scores on the play. Next play another run scores. Muff cost Twins 2 runs. LNP?
sane that would be the same as saying you wouldn’t be forced to learn how to hit it in the minors so spending another yr there isn’t going to do much.
hunters first yr he was 24 hit .255 in 384 ab’s with .309 obp and a so every 5.3 ab’s
gomez in 1/3 the ab’s hit .232 with .288 obp and so every 4.6 ab’s
not a significant difference considering he is 2 yrs younger.
give the kid a chance.
did the mets cut santana yet?
gobble,
Exactly. My only point is:
If the Twins think Gomez will more readily accept MLB instruction than AAA instruction, then keep him in MLB.
If the Twins think Gomez will accept instruction equally from AAA instructors, than they CAN send him to AAA.
LNP isn’t always the fielding savior. Made a boneheaded play yesterday missing the tag on the runner going to 2nd instead of trying for the DP.
For what it’s worth, Gomez walked on six pitches to lead off the game, went to second on a Mauer ground out, stole third, and came home on an error. In his second at bat, he worked the count full before lining one just foul the opposite way, and then flying out to deep left on the eighth pitch of the at bat. It’s not worth much because it’s just two good at bats early in spring. But that’s part of the point, since when does a guy get sent down after going 1-8?
Jama, again, you say Gomez can’t hit off-speed pitches, but you provide no evidence for it. Neither do you provide evidence that Span or Pridie can hit off-speed pitches. I’m not personally invested in Gomez. But why say stuff like “he can’t hit off-speed pitches at all” without any evidence?
1. Mauer
2. Kubel
3. Cuddyer
4. Morneau
5. Young
I dunno if Mauer is a leadoff guy (unless you’re only doing this until Gomez matures). Number two works, but yeah…who hits in front?
Also, I’d switch Cuddy and Young. I STILL think Young would be better served with Morneau behind him than vice versa.
Uh oh….Here’s two quotes from Gardy in yesterday’s Pioneer Press:
Gardenhire said he didn’t mind Gomez’s eagerness to clobber the ball, even if his Paul Bunyon technique needs to be refined. In fact, the manager had practically encouraged Gomez to attack that way.
“We’re an aggressive team by nature, and we like to see guys swing,” Gardenhire said. “(I told him) ‘Let’s take some rips, get our swings in early in the spring,’ and he took it to heart.
“I think he looked at me and said, ‘Boy, I like this guy,’ ” Gardenhire said, “because he was hacking.”
And then this about Delmon Young:
“I think it’s going to be pretty exciting when he swings,” Gardenhire said of Young, his new left fielder. “He’s dangerous when he lets that thing fly and gets fastballs. We’re going to want him to swing this year, more than take a lot of pitches and watch them go by.”
That was followed in the story by this:
Joe Mauer, hitting second in the lineup, let a few go by, drawing a pair of walks and singling in his third trip, creating opportunities for Young every time up.
I hesitate to criticize Gardenhire because he’s a lifetime baseball guy with no losing record until last season, and four division titles in six years. But this attitude is so antithetical to so many other baseball experts that it makes me really feel a lack of confidence for how the Twins do things regarding hitting.
I dunno if Mauer is a leadoff guy (unless you’re only doing this until Gomez matures). Number two works, but yeah…who hits in front?
I don’t see Mauer as a leadoff guy either, but until Gomez shows he can reach base as a reasonable rate there really isn’t anyone else to fill that role (unless Pridie shows he can do it, but then Gomez would be in AAA anyway).
Also, I’d switch Cuddy and Young. I STILL think Young would be better served with Morneau behind him than vice versa.
Young is in roughly the same situation as Gomez, highly talented but needs to show the ability to consistently get on base. He would likely see some better pitches to hit in front of Morneau, but if he doesn’t show that he’s becoming more selective he’ll still get fed a diet of junk off the plate. Cuddyer, at least for the time being, is a better option to hit third given that his OBP will likely be higher.
Dennis,
I don’t think we have to worry. I think Gary wants to have these 22 yr olds go
“balls to the wall” to see their potential. Remember TK’s mistake with Ortiz.
Gary? No Gardy.
Dennis,
Good to have you back online.
Would you say that Gardy is a calm, patient personality?
I would say that his personality mirrors his approach to hitting which is why he was a scrappy good field, NO HIT player.
Apparently Mauer can ignore Gardy’s advice on hitting approach.
We can only hope that Delmon and Gomez can develop Mauer’s immunity.
Dennis-
If you’re just now starting to lose confidence in the Twins approach to hitting, then you haven’t been paying attention. From Ortiz to Mauer we’ve been preaching a backwards approach at the plate for a while. That’s why I really hope Carew makes a lasting impact on some of these guys (especially Young).
I don’t mind Gomez taking huge whacks at the ball, but if he wants to bat 3rd eventually then he has to be able to get on base.
Sane, you would know this. Is my memory faulty or are ML catcher’s ability to throw out base stealers eroding? I don’t remember the success percentage acceptability ever being so low accross the leagues. I hear about the low 30’s being perfectly acceptable. What’s your view? In any event I’m exited about the Twins speed.
Gobbledygookguy,
I am not saying that you CAN’T learn to hit the breaking ball in the minors.
I AM saying that you can succeed in minors without learning to hit the breaking ball.
AND you CAN’T succeed (as a hitter) in MLB without learning to hit the breaking ball.
Patrick - No, I haven’t just recently developed a lack of confidence in the Twins approach. But I’d kind of hoped that they were learning their lesson, partly by losing Hunter and having Mauer become more of an established presence, and partly by hope that common sense would eventually prevail. All the stories about Delmon had been about how good he could be if he learned to not swing at everything. It was highly discouraging to read that Gardy not only isn’t following through on that, but is actually encouraging the reverse.
How Gardenhire handles Gomez(if he makes the ML roster)and the Young pitching staff is probably the biggest question of the ‘08 season.If you look at his track record,Cuddy and Kubel come to mind,he doesn’t seem to have the mindset to let the youngsters develope on the job.The Strib article yesterday about him having a tough time accepting losses underlines that.Granted this is the first season he has managed that the expectations are quite a bit lower,but if these players are going to be asked to develope at the ML level,Gardenhire needs to change his ways IMO.
Paul,
That throw-out rate is acceptable if your catcher hits like Mike Piazza, Paul LaDuca or Victor Martinez.
If he is a not a great hitter, than he had better improve on that rate or he will be bagging groceries next summer.
The tendency is to give up some defense to keep a good hitter in the lineup if you are playing a team that doesn’t play little ball.
Matthew Pouliot of Rotoworld recently did a story on the top 10 prospects for the AL Central teams. For the Twins he had Parmalee at #2. Here’s a scary quote that echoes what I quoted earlier about the Twins approach to hitting:
Parmelee, the 20th overall pick in the 2006 draft, was overmatched at times in his first full pro season, and it was discouraging that he actually got worse as the year went on (.237/.310/.360 after the break). Still, he oozes power potential and everything prior to 2007 suggested he was going to be a quality OBP guy. That the Twins have encouraged him to be more aggressive might be working against him.
Maybe that explains why the Twins position players never develop. They’re screwed by the minor league instruction that not only doesn’t TEACH them patience, but encourages the reverse….
Sane,
Has it eroded in the past 40 yrs or so?
Paul,
Another factor in decreased throw-out rates.
More splitters and sinkers (two-seam fastballs) and fewer four-seam fastballs being thrown by the pitchers.
Splitters and sinkers are more difficult for catchers to turn over (catch-transfer) quickly than are four-seam fastballs.
I’m with ya, Dennis. Very discouraging. You’d think there’d be some kind of awakening that, “hey, this approach isn’t working. maybe we should try something else…” but it doesn’t seem likely.
Paul,
Another factor.
Pitchers now want to get more on the pitch so they don’t get their heads knocked off by a come-backer.
More on the pitch means more hip rotation and slower delivery to the plate out of the stretch.
This leads to more stolen bases but fewer hits.
Thank you sane.
I bet David Ortiz would disagree with you Dennis. His arguement was that the Twins didn’t allow him to be agressive enough as a hitter… it turns out he was correct.
At this point Gomez has been the most impressive CF in camp. Yeah, he’s over swinging but has so much potential. He made a great catch in CF the other day, banged the ball all over the park today and he seems to have the ability to turn a single into a triple with ease. He is a superstar in the making who will benefit from learning on the job far more than being demoted. The Twins have not had a player with his combination of potential basestealing ability and flat out speed in the last two decades. CF has to be his job to lose and I’ll be very surprised if he isn’t the opening day CF for the Twins. He could very well be the next Rickey Henderson. Between Gomez and Guerra I think this trade doesn’t look bad at all.
Gomez today: Four good at bats. 1-2 with a sac fly, a walk, a stolen base, a run scored and a booming double off the wall that should have been a triple but he tripped rounding second and failed to get back to the bag safely.
It should be noted that Jason Pridie replaced him in the field after the trip and later made a great running catch in center.
I am actually OK with Gardy not mandating certain things from hitters. There aren’t a lot of Mauer’s out there. Not everyone is comfortable at the plate with two strikes. There are guys like Alfonso Soriano and a young Vlad Guerrero who are better by being aggressive. Most players are somewhere in the middle.
I don’t think the job of a manager or hitting coach is to make everyone the same or think the same, it is to find the way that gives that player the best chance to succeed.
it is the change in managers that has changed the way the game is approached imo. when kelly had dick such the pitching was (nearly)always the weak part of the team but they hit decent. when anderson and gardy took over the pitching improved drastically but the hitting has struggled. maybe someone knows if the minor league coaching changed at all during that time from kelly to gardy. we do seem to have a problem producing hitters on a regular basis. and don’t say mauer he was the #1 pick in draft he should hit.
Re: Aggressive hitting. The Twins have always stressed swinging the bats. This is nothing new. Think of how many swings Jones and Hunter took in their heyday. Not all baseball men believe in a patient approach at the plate. Some say the best pitch you’ll get is the first fastball. And a tentative approach leads to a tentative swing. The Twins aren’t the only org that has this general philosophy. The Cardinals also use it.
The only guy on this team who is patient is Mauer. And not everyone is real happy with his approach. He’ll take a close 3-1 fastball with ducks on the pond. Sometimes it works, as it did today, when he later doubled in two runs. Sometimes it doesn’t.
It’s no surprise that they acquired to free swingers in Young and Gomez. They fit the mold.
I wish the Twins would have turned me loose. I had to work on hitting the other way and behind runners.
You can go back to Puckett, Gaetti and Shane Mack on the agressive swingers… while Kent Hrbek was more patient.
It’s funny though… Many get upset on here for Mauer taking too many pitches and not being aggressive enough. Then many, maybe some the same, get upset at other guys for being aggressive and use Mauer as the poster child. In reality, there is no one right answer.
I think we can look at the Twins using Pridie in all three OF spots this spring, Monroe down with an injury, and Gomez playing at least somewhat well…
There is a chance both Pride and Gomez make the team and Monroe gets cut in ST.
Sending a guy to the minors to learn how to hit major league breaking balls is usually not very effective. If the pitchers in the minors are throwing major league breaking balls they wouldn’t be in the minors.
I’m suprised that they have used Pridie as they have. Makes me think (as RyanW says) they are think of him more in the 4th OF role.
I personally would like Monroe to be the 4th OF and be able to come off the bench. It will be nice to have someone like that at the end of games.
I think if Monroe gets and stays healthy, and shows that he can hit at least somewhat like his 06 year he will stick.
But after two years of Rondell, I think the twins have little patience for an injury prone OF. If he has even one more ST injury, he is in trouble.
Pridie has done pretty much everything he can do in AAA, there is little reason to send him back there. Besides, if Gomez slumps, Pridie can take a couple games in CF…
What was the final in the game today?
The bench is going to be a tough decision for Gardy do they want the versatility of Pridie who can play all the OF positions or the bat of Monroe who’s hurt again.
How did the pitchers do today?
jama 8-6 final Chris Basak hit a walk of two run homer
seth i agree. it seems that maybe they are trying to hard to make hitters into a certain mold rather than let them do what they do best and build on it. vavra talks a lot about hitting the other way and now gardy with this free swinging, maybe to many hitting coaches in the kitchen.
To be fair, it looks like Monroe has only been on the DL once in his career (2004). So maybe I am reading into it a little too much.
Minnesota IP H R ER BB SO HR ERA
Perkins 2.0 2 1 1 2 0 0 12.00
Daigle 2.0 3 2 2 1 1 0 6.00
Bass 2.0 2 0 0 0 0 0 2.70
Humber (H, 1) 1.0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.00
Day (BS, 1) 1.0 2 3 3 1 1 1 13.50
Gomez, M (W, 1-0) 2.0 2 0 0 0 0 0 9.00
Call me crazy, but what do you guys think about just letting the team roll with Gomez, Tolbert, Casilla and Buscher?
CF Gomez
C Mauer
RF Cuddyer
1B Morneau
LF Young
DH Kubel
3B Buscher
2B Tolbert
SS Casilla
Think about it like this, we are not going to contend and we might as well see if these guys can grow into something. Lamb is an alternate and we will soon realize that he is a great bench/part time player but not a starter. Bushcer has been smoking the ball so lets give him a chance to start. Everett is gold glove defensively but can’t hit air. Casilla will make mistakes in the field, but he will also make spectacular plays and has great speed. Bartlett used to mishandle rountine plays too, but would make spectacular ones too. As for Tolbert lets see what he can do at second with the bat. If he is not good or ready you can just let Everett play SS for the defense and give 2B to Casilla. I like the idea of Gomez’s and Casilla’s speed at the top and bottom of the order. I think this is the opening day lineup.
CF Gomez
C Mauer
RF Cuddyer
1B Morneau
RF Young
DH Kubel
3B Lamb
2B Harris
SS Everett
That being said, I bet you in not too long that the lineup turns into this for most of the season.
2B Punto
C Mauer
RF Cuddyer
1B Morneau
LF Young
DH Kubel
CF Monroe
3B Buscher
SS Everett
Gomez is not ready and if he can’t hit, he can’t start let alone hit leadoff. Monroe could play CF decently and provide a much better bat than the young trio vying for the job. I think Buscher can play and we will all soon find out Lamb is a great PART TIME player. Punto is a sparkplug and has the speed to hit leadoff if he can get back to his ‘06 form and hit at least .275. Not to mention both Harris and Punto are bench players, but if I have to pick between them I pick Punto because he gives you gold glove defense and good speed. Harris has a little better bat but it doesn’t overcome his other shortcomings.
P.S Liriano is going to be a stud again and he will win the Cy Young next year. I’m not going to lie I am getting very used to having the best left handed pitcher in the league and I like it.
Monroe = 4th OF
Pridie = 5th OF
Is there room for him with the limited bench space after 12 pitchers?
PRIDIE: Why does everyone say he’s done all he can in AAA? He’s played a half season there and he did well but the numbers were way higher than his career averages. Maybe he turned a corner but if he doesn’t perform well this spring there’s no reason to just hand him the job because he had one hot half season at AAA.
I’m not against Pridie being the possible starter but I wouldn’t crown him based on what the Twins know right now, he still has to come out and outperform Gomez.
You guys keep getting worried about Gomez, he looks to be very aggresive watching him here in Florida. Just keeps making rookie mistakes, like missing the cutoff man, tripping over his feet on the basepaths, etc. Nothing you haven’t seen other Twins doing in the past. He swings hard, but is likely headed to AAA as he will overswing on the curve and changeup. What bothers me more is Morneau. He did poorly the last two months of 2007. His Spring so far in Florida is terrible. Keeps hitting ground balls to the second baseman. Something is wrong with his swing. Watch it on MLB.com if you can’t watch him in Florida.
Also:
Monroe = PH
Pridie = PR/defensive replacement
Zach- I think we would loose 90 games with that lineup.
Tolbert will never be a regular position player in the majors. To say that Brenden Harris is a bench player (when he started like 120 games as SS last year and hit .286) while advocating for a starting role for Tolbert is silly.
Buscher and Lamb are both pretty bad in the field, so Buscher will have to prove that he can consitantly hit better than Lamb (who by the way is hitting the ball pretty well himself in ST).
Casilla showed us what he could do last Aug and Sept… it wasnt pretty. He needs to get better both in the field and at the plate before he gets another chance.
I can’t wait to see them play the Yankees on Wednesday. I hope Hughes starts, I would like to see how he is looking this spring and imagine what could have been. I hope the Twins give the #5 spot to Blackburn and keep Perkins as the 12th pitcher to be a long guy and give them a second left handed arm out of the pen. Humber seems to be junk and will be a AAA starter this year. I like Slowey, but he is still young (23 I think) so he can spend another half or full season in the minors and work on some things. Blackburn is already 26 so he is not a young prospect and after dominating the AFL a few months ago now is his time. If he doesn’t take this shot and run with it he probably never will. I also like Perkins a lot and think he hasn’t really ever gotten a shot until now. Although I think he is more useful as a second lefthander out of the pen and with this young rotation he will have a lot of opprtunities to throw innings this year as a long guy out of the pen. I think he will be ready to jump into the rotation next year with Liriano,Baker,Slowey and Blackburn or hopefully a real FA acquistion.
has cuddy been giving gomez base running lessons?
Ryan - The Big Papi problem with agressiveness was a different thing than I’m talking about. With him, the problem was Kelly making him go the other way and hit singles as opposed to pulling and going for power. I’m talking more about looking for a good pitch rather than hacking at everything. Remember all the times that Hunter or Jones would come up facing a guy having control troubles, and then swinging at the first pitch out of the strike zone and hitting into a double play or popping up?
Or remember Hunter’s worst trait: swinging at bad pitches to get to two strikes, and then swinging at the low sinker in the dirt and having no chance.
halfchest: I say it because as a 23 year old he hit .318/.375/.539/.914 in 245 ABs there last year. I don’t see how sending him there for another season will make him a better player. When you hit that well at a level, you should move up.
Bob,
Morneau has had 10 at bats, I wouldnt’ get too worried yet.
Dear numbermunchers:
There is more to baseball than stats.
Really.
Seth - Yes, guys like Vlad and Kirby were great bad ball hitters, but they’re the exception. I believe in swinging at the first pitch, but only if it’s a really good pitch. But a basic plan of looking for good pitches rather than swinging at everything is hard to beat. Some guys aren’t comfortable with that, but generally it’s a skill that can be taught and learned, especially at the minor league level. It’s worrisome to read about Parmelee being touted as a high OBP guy, and then seeing him go down hill as he tries to adopt the Twins’ aggressiveness.
Look at the stats of how batters do with the count in their favor vs. the count in the pitcher’s favor. It’s jaw dropping.
Dennis- I was a frustrated as anyone watching Hunter and Jones, but I am just as frustrated watching Jason Kubel (who used to be agressive) watch strikes go by. Some hitters are blessed with a good eye, and some are not. If a hitter has quick hands and the ability to adjust his swing, he can be a very good hitter and still swing at a lot of pitches (see Vlad or Soriano). It really just depends on the player…
Ryan-
You’re right about the Tolbert thing. He probably will never be a major league starter. But I am all about letting the young guys play when you have a team that is going to need a miracle to compete. Harris had a nice little year last year, but if you don’t believe that both him and Punto should be utility players than you are crazy. Casilla at least has MLB starter type talent and he has speed and has great range. He needs more plate discipline and hone his fundamentals. Weird sounds like some of the same attributes and problems of one Carlos Gomez who we are all ready to hand over the CF keys to. I just would much rather see Casilla get a chance to play and fail or succeed than watch Punto and Harris switch off playing time. Also we all know that Lamb is not a starter. I loved the signing, but as a 90 to 100 game a year type player. Maybe Buscher could be a starter, who knows? I’ve read that Gardenhire has said that Buscher seems to be the most determined guy at camp this year. I think that means a lot and I bet the Twins do too.
Parmelee was a high OBP guy in HS because he hit like .450. It is easy to have a good OBP when you are getting a hit every other at bat.
Harris just turned 27, he is a year younger than Jason Bartlett…
RyanW,
I realize he killed there, I mentioned that. What I’m saying is the numbers were way better than the rest of his stats. If he had done it for a full season there I would be more of a believer.
Whatever happens I’m hoping for both Gomez and Pridie to have starting CF jobs this year and Span on the bench in MLB or maybe in a corner in AAA.
Dennis,
Taking pitches early in the count doesn’t necessarily lead to favorable counts, ie taking STRIKES.
Brian Buscher is 6 months younger than Harris, Tolbert is 19 months younger than Harris.
Hey, I think if Buscher keeps it up he will make the big club… too bad he wasnt right handed… he would get more ABs (as Lamb, Kubel and Morneau are all also Lefty)
I believe that Pridie hits lefty too…
that is a lot of lefties, Monroe might make the team becasue of that.
zach the casilla thing is puzzling because last fall the twins are out of the race and he sits on the bench while punto, having one of the worst hitting yrs in ml history, is playing. i don’t understand at that point why casilla wasn’t playing every day mistakes, stupid play or whatever so he could learn. we all know how gardy feels about young (less experienced) players. he’ll probably want to send them all down and pick up a few more re-treads to play.
I think that I am having a 1987 flashback and the Twins win the World Series as a 84-78 team. Oh wait, this isn’t the National League. Let the young guys play and stop the Twins mantra of hording service time and making guys pitch out of the bullpen when they should be starter. Also somebody mentioned on here one time about Boof being a possible closer to replace Nathan. I actually really like that idea because Boof has really good stuff in short spurts but can’t make it last over 100 pitches. Although I don’t know if he has the velocity to be a closer, I think he can only hit like 93. He does have a wicked slider and curveball though. Make Boof a closer, trade Hernandez and Nathan at mid season and go with Liraino, Baker, Slowey, Blackburn, Perkins. I think that could be a good rotation by sometime next year. Add a FA after 08 or 09 and have Swarzak and Robertson coming down the bunny trail and we would be in pretty good shape for a run in 2010.
You guys keep getting worried about Gomez, he looks to be very aggresive watching him here in Florida. Just keeps making rookie mistakes, like missing the cutoff man, tripping over his feet on the basepaths,
Typical. A guy goes 1-2 with a walk, a stolen base, a sac fly, a run scored and a booming double and all you focus on is his tripping. He never missed the cutoff man. Gardy said the infielders got crossed up and there was no one to take the throw.
Sane - I couldn’t agree more. To me a proper agressiveness would entail having a good eye and going strong after the strikes, but holding off on the balls or close ones (the “pitcher’s pitches”). The exception would be the guys who just aren’t comfortable unless they see a pitch first. Wade Boggs comes to mind. Also, if a pitcher is having control problems don’t help him out.
Ryan - With Parmelee, beyond the BA his scouting report said he had a good eye and knew how to take a walk. I remember when reading about him after he was drafted that I was excited they were finally drafting Jason Giambi type guys. Maybe he’s the reverse Kirby: his game suffers if he can’t play the patience game.
It will be very interesting to see who has a better career between Ellsbury and Gomez. I am going to spend a lot of time watching Ellsbury,Hughes and Lester to see how this decision of the Twins panned out. I think Ellsbury is better right now and will score a ton of runs atop that lineup, but Gomez will be much better in the long run. He is already faster on the basepaths and better defesively (which is the entirety of Ellsbury’s game) and also has a tremendous arm and the physical potential to hit for power. I still can’t get over thinking that Hughes is going to be a top 10 starter within 2 years and I am having a difficult time letting go of watching Liriano and Hughes pitch back to back for the next five years. Although he is never going to be good enough to beat Johan in say a Game 1 of an ALDS, so maybe the actual trade wasn’t such a bad thing.
Zach,
I just keep thinking how crazy it would be if the Twins had Liriano, Hughes, Garza, Slowey and Boof as their rotation. Now that would have to be the best young rotation in the league. 3 potential Aces on top with a number 2 and number 3 potential guy pitching in the 4 and 5 slots. Given we’d still be losing games 1-0 and 2-1 but man that would be a crazy talented rotation.
I’ve already watched the Twins lose games 1-0 and 2-1 on a regular basis, and I’m glad I’m not going to have to do it this year.
The Garza/Young trade was great for both teams. They will both probably turn out to be studs.
I was thinking along the lines of RyanW’s comment that Pridie was really battling with Monroe for the 4th OF spot. However, the lack of a righthanded bench bat argues strongly for Monroe.
I think a Pridie/Monroe CF platoon to start the year would be the strongest lineup - with Gomez taking over if he proves he’s ready in aaa. Then hopefully we can go to 11 pitchers so monroe and pridie can both be on the bench.
Ellsbury has been terrible so far this spring and hasn’t even gotten a hit yet. He’s been outplayed by Crisp so far. I think Ellsbury is the most overrated prospect in the majors. I mean Gammons said he’s like Grady Sizemore. Ellsbury has an 1/8 of Sizemore’s power and is basically a slightly more powerful Juan Pierre.
A lot of guys on here aren’t going to like that Ellsbury line. They still can’t believe the stupid Twins didn’t get him and a couple Schmoes for Santana. However, I completely agree about his overratedness. Nobody has more hype. When you slug for a whopping .380 in AAA, just don’t see much power up in the bigs.
Ellsbury is much more of a sure thing. He will be a high BA/ high OBP guy for a long time in the majors. He fields well, but his arm is average (maybe even below for a CF). Gomez could become a better ML player if he develops some power (he will never have as high of a BA or OBP), but odds are Ellsbury will be the better player.
The real question is who will be the better pitcher, Delios Gurra or Jon Lester?
It is very early yet. I would really like to see Gomez be the Twins CF, given his outstanding tools and power potential. The way I see the roster shaking out right now is 12 pitchers, 5 OF (Kubel, Monroe, Young, Cuddyer and the winner of the CF derby), 5 IF (Morneau, Harris, Punto, Everett, and Lamb), 2 catchers and ???. I could see Pridie, Busher, G Jones (ugh!), Macri, or Machado winning that spot. I see Machado played in the “B” game today so apparently he is ready to play now?
Correction: Ellsbury is a high BA/moderate OBP guy. He doesn’t walk much. This is his line as a 23 year old in AAA last year:
403 PA 32 BB 47 SO .298/.359/.380/739
Notice the low SLG. He only had 21 XBH in AAA, 2 of which were homers. That’s better power than Pierre, but no where near Sizemore. This was Sizemore’s line as a 21 year old in AAA:
664 PA 42 BB 72 SO .287/.360/.438/798 39XBH with 8 HRs.
For reference, this is what Gomez did as a 21 year old in AAA:
157 PA 15 BB 23 SO .286/.363/.414/777 12 XBH 2 HRs.
Small sample size, I know. But the majors called, and what are you going to do? If you extrapolate Gomez out over a whole season (multiply by 4), his numbers look a lot more like Sizemore’s than Ellsbury’s do.
Ellsbury’s overrated because he was a star in September and October last year. He’s not that good otherwise. Look at his numbers: Jacque Jones with a fraction of the power. And his defense and speed don’t come close to Gomez. I wouldn’t trade Gomez for Ellsbury straight up right now. In two years time, nobody would.
I would really like to see
gomez
casilla
mauer
mourneau
Cuddyer
Young
Kubel
Lamb
Harris
Speed and power. I dont have worries about lineup as much as pitching. Wish we had someone like Radke who could be leader and throws strikes. I like our defense too. Man how many days till opening day. We need one experienced pitcher.
A couple of random thoughts from the game today.
- first and foremost, NOTHING beats being at the ballpark during Spring Training. Those of you back in MN won’t want to hear this, but the only problem was it was a little too warm — needed a few more Gulf breezes…
- I was really impressed with Gomez, both offensively and in the field. Really opened my eyes.
- The bobble by Harris on the potential GDP…that was a tough play and no guarantee that he’d have gotten both runners even with a perfect pick.
- Impressed with Bass - he was the first 1-2-3 inning the Twins pitchers threw. There’s probably no room for him in the rotation, but he’d seems to add to the stellar Rochester lineup.
- Even more impressed with Humber. Did he even sweat?
- Ruiz seems to have one thing in mind every time he swings. Good thing it finally happened in the 9th!
- Adam Dunn is an obscenely large human being. Remind me never to insult him…
I had to leave in the 7th to take my wife to the airport, so I missed all the pyrotechnics at the end. Sure, I was mad that I had to leave the game, but my wife had to leave the whole state, so I can’t complain too much!
Regarding Parmelee losing the “good eye” he had in 2005 before he was drafted.
In 2005, he was playing HS baseball in California.
A pro slider can make a hitter look like he doesn’t know the strike zone.
He probably didn’t see many pro sliders at Chino Hills HS.
Ellsbury posted a .389 OBP in his minor league career. Gomez has a career .339 OBP.
In 116 ABs last year in the majors Ellsbury posted a .394 OBP. Gomez posted a .288 OBP in 125 major league ABs last season.
Ellsbury has 0 stops out of 6 with an OBP below .360, Gomez has one stop out of 8(36 games) with an OBP over .360.
Age? Ellsbury had an OBP over .450 in college, including a .495 OBP his senior year… As a 21 year old, Ellsubry posted a .418 OBP in 35 games in his first professional season.
There is no evidence that Gomez will ever be compariable to Ellsbury when talking about OBP or BA. Again, if Gomez is going to become a better CF than Ellsbury he will have to develop a little power and hit for a decent average.
Thanks to cmath and GBG for their useful and non-boring reports. From them both, we keep hope high for Gogomez!
Moving on, is it at all possible that any of Lamb, Harris or Everett won’t be in the starting lineups? I mean, Gardy isn’t about to overrule Bill Smith, right? Even if any of Buscher, Casilla or Punto have comparative undeniably dandy spring trainings, right?
So I have to conclude that — with or without Gomez — this year’s running game will be way down. No pirhana fun this year.
But it’s not unreasonable that Boof can now possess the stamina to eat a lot of innings. So Baker/Boof/Livan could eat 550+…….
So why the automatic need for 12 pitchers on opening day? Why do we accept a 4-man bench?
And are Lamb, Everett, and Harris the last word on acquisitions in their positions at SS, 2B and 3B?
I like the players in bmick’s lineup above. But I’m hoping it’s Buscher, not Lamb. And I’m hoping for a bench of Redmond, Punto, Lamb, Monroe, and Pridie.
And a bullpen of……
Perkins
Gurrier
Crain
Reyes
Neshek
Nathan
By the way, Ellsbury’s career minor league OBP (.389) and his major league OBP (.394) would have lead the Twins team last season as our leading OBP guy was Mauer with .382.
To say Ellsbury is a “moderate OBP” guy is silly.
So I’m hoping it’s Casilla and Everett is gone.
I know, dream on……..
romer,
The reason for 12 pitchers early is that the starters and long relievers have not stretched out to their maximum innings or pitches.
They begin with two innings at the start of ST and gradually increase to 5-6 innings by Opening Day.
By about May 1, they have reached their maximums and the pitching staff can be reduced to 11 pitchers.
RyanW,
IMO Gomez’s power potential FAR exceeds Ellsbury’s.
You are probably correct that Ellsbury is (and will be) the better BA and OBP guy, but power, arm strength and speed will go to Gomez.
Then it’s about time for the 26-man squad in MLB — if pitchers’ arms are too tenuous.
I mean, the obligatory backup catcher and just 3 others on the bench. Boring.
Maybe Selig will fart and smell the future. lol
Maybe Livan can go 8 innings and bat as well. Real baseball.
“So I have to conclude that — with or without Gomez — this year’s running game will be way down. No pirhana fun this year.”
Potentially with Gomez and Casilla,
I disagree, although potential is just potential.
Losses in stolen bases:
Bartlett 23
Castillo 9
Tyner 8
Hunter 18
Total 58
gains in SB
Young 10
Everett 14(average2004-2006 full years)
Harris 4
Gomez 50 (potential)
Casilla 30 (potential)
Total 108
I project Casilla for 30 SB because he had 50 SB in the minors in 2006.
I project Gomez for 50 SB because he had 12 SB in 125 AB in the NL last year which projects to 48 per 500 AB.
Castillo had 19 SB’s last year in the bigs. So to be fair, add 10 more, making it 68 SB losses.
With 28 new ones coming in, it’s a net loss of 40 — until we figure in the Gomez and/or Casilla contribution.
It’s reasonable to assume Gomez will start (but not Casilla) and make up that 40 SB loss.
But we lost three good base stealers, and we’re getting one back.
And it’s about the same when considering base runner. Hunter, Punto, Castillo, and Bartlett used to fly around the bases. None of them are starters here.
Gomez maybe probably will start. And Everett helps a little.
But not close to the multidimensional offense of 2006-7.
I was also thinking that DH isn’t usually a base-stealer type. So that leaves the other 8 guys to get the running game going.
We had 4 or 5 of those guys — half or so of the lineup. Now it’s down to a quarter or so of the lineup.
Which leads me back to my comment at 10:33 asking of Gardy could “overrule” Bill Smith.
Smith has set the offense strategy when he got Lamb and Harris. What can Gardy do about any of that?
Looks like the strategy is Detroit-lite or Cleveland-lite.
It might work, but it all depends on Gomez, doesn’t it.
Gardy and Co have some tough decisions to make in next few weeks but truly I think we go with Gomez and Casilla and get rid of PUNTO. I want speed with the power we have. We have TOO many utility guys who can play 2b/3b/ss. I like the harris kid and everret with buschner. But where does that put punto, lamb?
Sane- I actually agree with your Gomez/Ellsbury assessment. It is too early to tell, but if Gomez can hit even 10+ HR a year and even a modest amount of XBH while putting up a decent average .280+ he will be a better player due to his speed (although Ellsbury is pretty darn fast as well), arm and glove.
But even a modest .280/.350/.410 line seems generous (but not out of the question) for a guy who hit .278/.339/.399 in the minors. The jury is still out.
bmick,
I hear what you are saying, but I think it is wishful thinking. While I never thought I would be sticking up for him, Punto has some value on this team. He is a defensive upgrade at every position he can play (except SS now with Everett) and can run. If used correctly, he can be an asset for the Twins. Casilla already showed us last season that he has some work to do to be a good ML player. His defense can be suspect and he isnt a good enough hitter to make up for it. In fact, you could make the argument that for the big club last year, Punto was actually a better hitter than Casilla:
Punto .210/.291/.271
Casilla .222/.256/.259
Besides, I would like to see Casilla move back to AAA and establish himself as the starting SS for the Twins in 09. He isnt going to do that pinch running every 4 days.
Anybody else hope they keep 2 left-handed RPs? Reyes can be great, but he seems to be overused.
If the Twins are out of the running by the break, I expect Casilla (or even Punto) to take over at SS, since Everett only has a 1 yr deal.
romer,
Maybe we have to look forward to 2009 when Casilla could be the full-time SS.
And Pridie had 26 SB in the minors last year.
Plus Ben Revere and Joe Benson on the horizon.
Shaitan,
I would rather the Twins keep the best seven relief pitchers even if NONE of them are LHP’s.
Wow, RyanW you got Ellsbury having a higher OBP than guys like Ichiro. Thats quite a stretch for a guy who didn’t even have a .400 OBP while hitting .351 last year. I seriously doubt his OBP will be anything higher than .360. Gomez had a higher OBP last year at AAA so don’t get carried away here.
2007 OBP for top of the order types
Ichiro .396
Figgens .393
Sizemore .390
Pedrioa .380
Michael Young .366
Except for Sizemore, nobody here hit for any power at all. To say that Ellsbury is going to come in and run with this crowd, some of the best hitters in the league, is quite optimistic.
And if we are comparing pitchers , Lester isn’t the guy, he was headlining his own deal, you have to compare Masterson. Add in Jed ‘i’m and average 2nd baseman’ Lowrie and I’m pretty sure the Mets had the better deal
“RyanW you got Ellsbury having a higher OBP than guys like Ichiro. Thats quite a stretch for a guy who didn’t even have a .400 OBP while hitting .351 last year. I seriously doubt his OBP will be anything higher than .360. Gomez had a higher OBP last year at AAA so don’t get carried away here.”
Um, no. I never said Ellsbury would have a higher OBP than Ichiro. You are just flat out incorrect. Ellsbury has never had an OBP below .360, his career minor league OBP is .389. There is little reason to believe that his OBP will drop 30 points in the majors when when given a chance to play in the majors he posted a .394 OBP.
