Live From The Bay Area
Posted on April 21st, 2008 – 9:17 PMBy La Velle
Walked out of my home at 9:30 this morning. Pulled up at the San Francisco Marriott at 7 p.m. Just a normal travel day, as normal as flying through Phoenix to get to the Bay Area can be.
I got the most out of the day. Read the sports section and a read a few selected stories in the other sections of the Strib. Grabbed an Arizona Republic during the layover and read that sports section (my man Paul Coro covers the Suns). The big achievement was finishing the final 107 pages of a book I’ve been trying to finish since I-don’t-know-when.
It’s in the 50’s here, the sun is out and I’ll be on the hunt for some blackened halibut tonight.
Anyway, just wanted to let everyone know that we’re gonna try to big back the weekly minor league report to the Sunday sports section (cue McFadden and Whitehead). Not sure what form it will be in, but keep an eye out for some sort of update on Twins prospects. We’re aware how much you crave that info, so we’re going to try to give you what you want. Somewhere, Seth Stohs is steaming…
Here’s the box score from Kevin Slowey’s rehab start today for Class A Fort Myers. Looks like the Miracle came to hit, especially Johnny Woodard.
189 Responses to "Live From The Bay Area"
First…
Don’t forget about the Mitchell Brothers!
That would be great. The Twins are an organization, not just a team. Thanks.
“If his next three or four starts aren’t any better than his first two, Gardenhire said Liriano will go back to the minors.”
Quote from the linked story below:
http://www.minnpost.com/patborzi/2008/04/21/1582/twins_feel_need_to_baby-sit_liriano_and_keep_him_on_task
ROMO:
Romo says: “I am worried about Young. He doesn’t look that athletic sometimes, the way his legs are hooked up or something. And his BA is now lower the Gomez’s”
Did anybody hear his interview on Sid and Dave Mona’s show? They compared it to a Randy Moss type of interview. They didn’t even brown nose him.
Great story sane. Thanks for the link.
just curious, is there a reason we have Danny Graves (a former 2 time NL All-Star) in our organization, but only at single-A ball? did he have a major surgery at some point? I remember him being very good a few years ago in the bigs…
Did anyone else see the quotes from Gardy that the only reason they called up Liriano was because they didnt’ trust him to work out hard on his own down in the minors?
He basically said they called him up because they need to babysit him. And he insinuated that Liriano was really out of shape, even after Spring Training. If this is true, I now understand why the Twins haven’t offered this guy a long term deal. By the sounds of it, he isn’t real motivated.
If it’s true Jama, it’s unfortunate. The kid’s got talent, we all saw it.
But now that he’s got to work to get back where he was…oh man…I hope he can do it.
—-
On a side note, these mid-week West Coast trips are KILLER! 9pm start time? I loves me some Twins baseball, but I dunno if I’ll be able to do two games with potentially midnight finishes.
What the heck!!! Just kidding. I’m thrilled that there will be minor league info back in the Strib!! That is great news!
I think that Danny Graves was brought in primarily as a just in case. he hasn’t actually been serviceable for about four years or so. Even last year with an independent league team, he wasn’t very good. But, it’s for just in case something crazy happens and he finds the light again. I can’t imagine he’ll last the whole season in the organization, and he certainly won’t stay in Ft. Myers.
Don’t worry Seth. Some of us will continue to read you most every morning.
You know, the bored at work, the out of work and the running from work. You know, your people. (Like me)
I’m ready for some late night Twins…I got caught up on sleep when I turned in early during all those Wild games (knowing full well investing a lot of viewing time in that series would be a wasted exercise).
Seriously? They brought Liriano up because they don’t trust him to work hard? That is pathetic on three levels:
1. The fact he is lazy and won’t work out to improve at his craft is sad. He’s been given a gift, and he should use that gift.
2. They don’t think their AAA coaches have sufficient influence to get a player to work hard.
3. They are willing to sacrifice MLB games, playing a guy they now admit is lazy and out of shape, so they can get him in shape. What does that say to the rest of the guys? don’t work hard, and we’ll keep you up here if you have talent?
I’m confused on all the fuss over Liriano…he hasn’t even blown up yet….he was late getting into camp and doesn’t have the same amount of innings as our other starters…where’s the big tragedy, here?
If you ask me, the guy to be concerned about is Boooo
I share your concern over Boof’s long term ability to be a starter.
But I think any organization that:
1. basically admits that the player they’ve said is their best pitcher is lazy
2. they don’t trust him to work hard
3. they call him up to the majors when they admit he isn’t ready….
has a big problem.
sane first I rip Liriano yesterday and you show me some interesting stats that made me think twice about Franchise then you throw this at me!! The kid doesn’t like his new delivery then let him go back to the old way. Maybe then he’ll have control of his fastball and we’ll see that devestATING SLIDER AGAIN!
Jason
At best Boof projects to be an average MLB pitcher. He is a lot easier to replace than Liriano. If the Twins are serious about contending in the next few years, they are goig to need an ace like Liriano has the potential to be.
Right, saam, but how are we any more hurt by having him start for the Twins than bringing up some AAA pitcher for a few starts so he can get rocked?
I just don’t think Liriano’s pitching devastatingly bad right now…
hernandez might teach franchise how to pitch and change speeds, but he’s not an ideal role model if your want frankie to buy into the Twins way of working hard and staying in shape!!
Hernanadez is guy who knows how to win his way and cares little about the “teams” way after all his way made him world series MVP. Beyond doing things his way Hernandez is a little overweight!lol
Is Hernandez the only one in the club house who can fluently talk to the Dominican superstar
regarding the Liriano comments, I just don’t trust the source (Gardy). Compare those comments with Anderson’s comments about Liriano…
Jason just because he walks everyone doesn’t mean that if he does throw strikes that the other team won’t crush that weak fastball he throws 50% of thr time.
The Twins need to find a way to keep Blackburn! Boof has indeed been the most inconsistent…unfortunately seems to be his hallmark. But I’m impressed at Blackburn’s dependability SO FAR. At least they need Slowey to really show he is ready to perform at that level, although it indeed sucks to lose a slot due to injury.
If that story is true it’s a big rip on Larianos work ethic and commitment. I’m curious as to how he’s going to feel if he hears about this story. I would think that most players would be very pissed at Gardenhires comments.
They don’t think their AAA coaches have sufficient influence to get a player to work hard.
If Liriano’s problem is motivation…sending him to AAA-ball isn’t going to change that.
What does that say to the rest of the guys? don’t work hard, and we’ll keep you up here if you have talent?
I’d view it as “We see promise, we’ll work with you. But you’ve got to work with us.”
A more important thing for other players will be how the team reacts if Liriano fails to respond to these comments, and the continued watching over by Anderson.
That may or may not be true, but they sent Bartlett down when they didn’t think he was working hard enough. Many teams send players down to remind them that if they don’t work hard there are others that can replace them.
As for not pitching badly, isn’t his ERA 6.52? If he had enough innings he’d be 91st out of the 95 pitchers with enough innings to qualify.
The Twins have Liriano’s poor mechanics, Liriano’s poor conditioning, Liriano’s poor 2008 stats and Gardy’s comments to help evaluate Liriano’s short term performance outlook.
That is sufficient information.
The Twins have only Kevin Mulvey’s AAA stats (2-1, 1.02 ERA, 20K, 3BB) to project his MLB performance outlook. Not enough information.
Why not bring up Mulvey for 2-3 starts to see where he is in his development?
Maybe he is MLB ready but just being delayed like Santana and Liriano were delayed.
If Mulvey struggles, by then Liriano’s mechanics and his conditioning may have improved. There is litle reason to expect immediate improvement from Liriano if his mechanics and conditioning are currently subpar.
Anybody notice that all three starters this week are former SF Giants’ property? Kind of a homecoming.
BC,
“I’m curious as to how he’s going to feel if he hears about this story. I would think that most players would be very pissed at Gardenhires comments.”
If Gardy’s face to face suggestions to Liriano were being ignored, then a public scolding becomes necessary.
If Gardy doesn’t blow him up, then nothing changes.
What’s ironic is that several people who frequent the strib blogs were so confident that if the Twins had kept Santana, we would “make a run” this year with a 1-2 punch of Santana and Liriano.
it is troubling that they don’t trust the aaa coaches to get him where he needs to be.
imo the problem isn’t pitching overall with the exception of some bad relief in a few games it has been very good. hitting continues to be very bad. in 07 we were near last in most hitting #’s; ave. .264, runs gm 4.43, obp .330 and slg .391
now in 08 we are even worse; ave .257, runs gm 3.73, obp .302 and slg .356
without a couple gms with big run totals this would be even worse.
imo this has slid to far and vavra has to go. need a new fresh approach to get these guys going.
PDX, interesting observation. However, the Twins are loaded with guys they didn’t draft now, so most visits will be reunions of some kind.
Young, Gomez, Lamb, Everett, Harris.
Liriano, Boof, Hernandez, Nathan.
Those are just the key players or starters that weren’t drafted by the Twins. You also have Monroe and whomever else in the bullpen (mind blank right now). So much for building through the draft.
gobble,
Hitting usually improves with warm weather. Is there a way to compare the batting stats with 2007 up to April 22?
You may still be right.
Sane I have no problem with Gardy calling him out in public if he needs it I’m just questioning the validity of these comments. If what he’s said is true it makes Frankie look very bad in my eyes.
I love how Twins fans expect all the players on our squad to be perfect little Angels when it comes to dotting all of Gardy’s i’s and crossing all of his t’s…
You know what you get when you strive for that kind of perfection? You get Nick Punto.
Look, folks, Fransisco Liriano is an amazing talent–head and shoulders our best long-term pitching prospect. I don’t know about you, but I’m not in the mood to quibble over whether he got his daily dose of Vitamin C or Zinc in the morning, whether he did 50 jumping jacks or only 33, or whether he not he had an extra doughnut when he should’ve been throwing long-toss with the boys…the bottom line is he’s our guy and he’s damn good and all of this high school nit-picking is going to look pretty silly down the line when (and, yes, if) he’s back to form.
In the meanwhile, I say we all calm down and let the kid pitch.
The AAA manager was quoted as saying that Liriano wasn’t ready to get called up after his last start there and the Twins did it anyway. That tells you how much say he has in what happens.
BC,
You are right.
If Gardy’s comments are not valid, then he should have not gone public.
The issue I have with these comments of Gardy about Liriano, is that the timing and the nature could not have been more inappropriate
The guy is trying to work on a mental block to regain control of his fastball and his manager is putting additional pressure on him? Isn’t it obvious that Liriano is pressing himself too much already?
Good to know that Gardy looks after the least talented player in the organization (Punto), while publicly lashes the most talented pitcher in the organization…
Good job, Gardy, hope the front office gives you and yours a “wake up call” sooner than later
I wonder some day’s how the Twins knew that Nathan would make a good closer. I believe that when he was with SF he was a starter the whole time
jb
You would be wrong again. I guess I shouldn’t be suprised. The year before the Twins traded for Nathan he was a setup guy.
sane it is worse they started out much better last yr.
25 gms march/april 07;
ave .271, obp .330, slg .401 15hrs and 4.6 runs a gm.
this site has massive stats:
jama nice as usual and never judgemental. Thank you I actually thought he was a starter the whole time. Maybe Gardy just put him in as a closer for an experiment and the rest is history
Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association (JAMA)
“Isn’t it obvious that Liriano is pressing himself too much already?”
I agree.
He would have much less pressure pitching in Rochester until he builds his confidence to a high level.
His mechanics and conditioning would also have a chance to improve.
Is Liriano suffering from atrophy:
Decrease in size or wasting away of a body part or tissue; also : arrested development or loss of a part or organ incidental to the normal development or life of an animal or plant
even without santana, silva and garza the pitching has been better than last yr,
march/april 07; era 3.98, 31 hrs, 81 bb in 25 gms
08; era 3.8, 20 hrs, 37 bb in 19 gms.
= rick anderson, very good
vavra, very bad!
Just a little bit off subject but I think we are getting paid back in full for the Santana trade by the annoying ways of Carl Peterson and the Jared Allen trade
gobbledygookguy says:
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:21 am
even without santana, silva and garza the pitching has been better than last yr,
march/april 07; era 3.98, 31 hrs, 81 bb in 25 gms
08; era 3.8, 20 hrs, 37 bb in 19 gms.
= rick anderson, very good
vavra, very bad!
I agree i was looking at our team stats and we are at the bottom in almost every hitting category. Who was our hitting coach in 87 and 91 i can’t remember now. Can we offer Paul Molitor more money than Gardy just to be our hitting coach?
Lavelle
by me a beer tonight or wednesday nite. will be at the game. Cann you find out if any interest in get big hurt?
I know all the other bloggers have their insight.
Win Twins!
BC of ND, gobbledygookguy
Hey guys, while you are looking at our hitting ranks look where we rank at BA w/ runners in scoring position.
Jared BA w/ runners in scoring position is great if you have runners in scoring position but if your team OBP is .302 your not getting a lot of risp.
I still don’t know why Gomez has no power being 6′4 and all. Can someone please explain this to me. He surprises me being that quick for someone 6′4 also
jimmy bee it’s hard to hit homeruns when your told to pound the ball in the dirt every AB.
I was just getting to the point we lead the leauge until Sunday’s game. We still might I havn’t checked. The Twins have always won with pitching, defence and timley hitting. I don’t see why it’s a big surprize where we are ranked on those other statistics.
Gomez doesn’t try to pound the ball into the dirt. He either bunts or swings out of his a$$. He dosn’t have power becasue he hasn’t hit a ball on the screw’s yet. The one foulball be hit that left the yard in Chicago was a rocket. No power=can’t hit yet
it’s not a surprise this is into the 2nd yr of bad hitting it’s time to dump vavra and find a real hitting coach.
Some day, perhaps, Gomez will be the Twins’ #3 hitter. Swinging for power will be just fine when that day comes. But I really don’t want my leadoff hitter up there swinging for the fences. As already pointed out, this team’s OBP is pretty putrid already. Having your leadoff guy trying to go yard isn’t going to improve that.
BC of ND From what I have seen from Gomez is that he just has no bat speed. It is just interesting that he runs fast like someone allot smaller and hits with no power like someone allot smaller. When Gomez swings sometimes I am surprised he doesn’t spin in a 360 because the bat’s momentum
Jared i agree that the Twins have won recently with small ball but the fact that there last in OBP shows that they lack plate discipline.
Does anyone know any Batting coaches that are out there and are available that we might consider
for a man with his talent, gomez sure lacks the ability to bunt…its amazing to watch him lunge and wave at the damn ball. you would think hed catch on by watching one video or even just a couple times in the cage to let the ball come to him..this is not rocket science, so why he has so much trouble really puzzles me..is he that bad a student…he is an automatic 300 plus hitter if he learns to bunt properly for base hits and sacrficing…
Jimmy i noticed that as well. In tonights game look at the diferance in AB’s between Harris and Gomez. Harris is almost like a statue he just stands there very calm, watches the pitch and waits for something good to hit. Gomez on the other hand swings like he’s shoveling out of a Minnesota blizzard.
BC,
I think the hitting coach(es) were Terry Crowley and Tony Oliva.
I don’t know if Oliva was full-time.
I also don’t think MLB hitting coaches are able to change much in the approaches and swings of players that have already succeeded in reaching the Big Leagues without their help.
Morneau’s slump & Cuddy’s injury have a great deal to do with the OBP. Now that Morneau is hitting and Cuddy is almost back I hope that will help us. Mauer and lamb aren’t exactly hitting right now either. I bet by seasons end we’ll be about middle of the pack in OBP.
Can’t the Twins approach to the plate be somewhere between Mauer and Gomez/Young? Everyone except for Mauer is so far to one side while Mauer is so far to the other. It would be great if they could have some guys with a nice balance of having a good eye but also putting the bat on the ball.
I’m just wondering why the dailies stayed away from some of the more unpleasant elements of the Liriano saga while a website freelancer, albeit a gifted one, was able to tell the whole story, complete with on-the-record attribution?
Jared
There is no way this team is middle of the pack in OBP. Other than Mauer there isn’t a guy on this team that likes to walk. Guys like Young and Gomez are going to pull OBP down the entire year. Until they learn to lay off a pitch the teams OBP is going to be near the bottom.
Gomez on the other hand swings like he’s shoveling out of a Minnesota blizzard.
ha ha ha ha ha ha right on BC
anyone know why theres no tv on thursdays game..?
BC does Gomez look like he is swinging a barbell out there and should possibly try a lighter/smaller bat?
Jimmy
I think you are way off on Gomez. His bat speed is rather good in my opinion. He pulls almost everything. The reason he looks like he is going to fall over is because he swings too hard most of the time. Hopefully over time he will realize that balance at the plate is important.
Regarding Liriano: Could some of the reason he was recalled relate to service-time issues? If he had been optioned for a full month, it would set the clock back a whole year for free agency. I think the Twins try to stay on the good side of those guys who figure to be stars in the future, so maybe FL and his agent were saying they wanted him back up.
so does punto continue to hold down the ss spot (hes been doing well both in the field and plate) or does gardy switch up to tolbert now and then…as much as i love tolbert, i cant see taking punto away from ss…the more i watch him and have watched punto for years now, his glove work gets more impressive- i know he has alot of detractors but i have to admit, he is one of the best ever with the glove… tough spot for tolbert right now, as harris is playing a good 2nd and hitting well also…
sane thanks for the info so if you don’t think a hitting coach can help then why do teams have them? Does that also mean Anderson is not helping the pitchers?
jimmy bee says:
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:25 pm
BC does Gomez look like he is swinging a barbell out there and should possibly try a lighter/smaller bat?
I agree with jimmy maybe a heavier bat instead of a lighter one would help.
mj1 says:
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:33 pm
so does punto continue to hold down the ss spot (hes been doing well both in the field and plate) or does gardy switch up to tolbert now and then…as much as i love tolbert, i cant see taking punto away from ss
mj do you think Tolbert is playing bad defensivly because i haven’t seen it.
it’s not a surprise this is into the 2nd yr of bad hitting it’s time to dump vavra and find a real hitting coach.
Except Vavra’s been the hitting coach for three years. (The first of which was the 2006 season)
—–
mj1, I think Tolbert is the best option at SS. Go young this year if the goal is to rebuild. Punto can play three infield positions and a couple of outfield, which makes him a better bench player than Everett by far.
If Buscher is going to be with this team past all of the guys coming off the DL, he should also start over Lamb.
The Twins are rebuilding, so if a young guy is producing he should get play time over a fill in.
That’s why Thomas would likely only be a platoon guy with Kubel, and Bonds would essentially be an expensive bench option (Kubel’s the lefty DH)
bc - no, tolbert has been playing wonderful, just where do you play him and when…does gardy platoon the three of them or what…usually you want some cohesion between ss & 2nd from a defensive standpoint …and i wonder if everett will ever get his job back…
t are you saying that they hit good in 06 so vavra should get a free pass for how many years?
mj your right the SS situation is going to be ugly when Everett comes back and what if Buscher starts hitting like he was in AAA? That 3b situation could get sticky as well. I agree with what you said about Punto i’m not a big fan of his bat but if we could merge his skill with Harris you’d have a solid player on your hands.
i am surprised by lambs slow start at the bat, and hopefully he gets it going soon, as its too early to completely give up on lamb, but i do think buscher is going to push lamb and i actually think buschers has a better bat than lamb…will be interesting…all i really know is that these twins need to hit the damn ball, and if they had been hitting all year, they would be leading this division as crazy as its been-im not totally sold on rebuilding-more on competeting…
Pitching coaches have more impact on game situations. Shoot, sometimes they call the pitches. The hitting coach’s main job is to throw bp and look for any technical problems with the swing. He can’t make them drive the ball or make them change there approch once they are in the box. A pitching coach can make a vist to the mound or call a pitch he thinks will get a hitter out.
I actually like Lamb quite a bit and I have faith he will be a solid hitter soon. I still think he is going through culture shock with no sun and playing indoors. Jama do you think a different bat weight would help Gomez to not overswing and come off of the ball. He swings with a bat that seems to be to heavy for him and when he misses it gives him a corkscrew into the ground look
I just noticed that former Twin Christian Guzman is having another good year with the National’s. Last year he was above .300 also
Jared ZZZZZZZ says:
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:05 pm
The hitting coach’s main job is to throw bp and look for any technical problems with the swing. He can’t make them drive the ball or make them change there approch once they are in the box.
A hitting coach works with players to improve their hitting techniques and form. His job is to get them to change there approach before they get into the box and if he can’t then he’s not doing his job.
Batting coaches coordinate the video systems which record opposing pitchers and the Twins hitters. They compile tendency charts which corelate type of pitch, location, ball-strike count, left-right hitters, late in game-early in game for each opposing pitcher.
They make those resources available to all the hitters, but the individual hitter may choose which resource to use.
He also works with the hitters that ask him for help or the hitters he can convince they need his help.
He can do that by showing them videos (past and present) of their own swings or by giving them real-time instruction during BP, soft toss, tee-hitting and dry swings.
What are the names of some of the available hitting/batting coaches available out there currently we would consider
I know the Twins realy wanted Molitor but he turned them down. The best hitting coach you can get is a proven MLB hitter. I have a great idea can we sign Frank Thomas as a player/coach?
what about someone like Edgar Martinez? I don’t know what would be better to get as a batting coach. One who hit for a high avg in the show with no power or one that had a ton of power and a low avg
I’ve always liked Edgar when he played and man what a Twin killer he was. He would be a great influence especially for Gomez.
Pitchers are more dependent on pitching coaches, because pitchers are so diverse in their arm angles, pitches, velocity, movement, successful locations, position on the rubber, job (starter, long RP, middle RP, setup, closer) and on, and on and on.
It is difficult for pitchers to get as much help from other pitchers. So the pitching coach is every pitcher’s friend.
Hitter’s problems are often similar for multiple hitters so hitters share information more often with each other than do pitchers.
IMO that is why hitters are less dependent on hitting coaches.
I watched a special on Edgar Martinez and how he would practice hitting. He would write down numbers on the balls and not try to hit them but actually try to read the #’s he had written on them as they came over the plate at 90mph. Crazy eye at the plate
Good (bad) hitters sometimes become bad (good) hitting instructors and everything in between.
jimmybee that is good stuff.I honestly believe that great players like him just have a natural ability to see the ball better than us mere mortals.
Just because a player is a good hitter, it doesn’t mean he would make a good hitting coach. The ideal hitting coach is someone who had success at the mlb level and is a student of hitting. Two good examples are Tony Gwynn and Rod Carew. There are other hitters that were good, but they were good because of raw talent, not because they studied hitting. Examples would be Kirby Puckett and Dave Winfield. Vavra has no business being a mlb hitting coach. He certainly has no experience as a hitter in the major leagues, so what respect can players have for him.
Did Dave Winfield ever try to become a batting coach. He may a good choice being a local and all. I don’t really remember Joe Vavra playing
ES16 Boggs has to be mentioned surely as well when you say Gwynn
Of course, I was just giving examples.
no prob
That’s because Vavra didn’t play at the major league level. He did coach at UW-Stout though, which I’m sure was great preparation for being a hitting coach at the major league level.
Ortiz has said many times that the hitting appraoch preached in Minnespta held him back.
Whatever that’s worth!
jimmy bee….you could argue the Twins would be just as good with their 2003 infield (except for Morneau over Mientkiewicz) this season…
C-Pierzynski
1B-Morneau
2B-Rivas
SS-Guzman
3B-Koskie (injured….insert whichever failed attempt at replacing him from 05-08 you desire)
it would be interesting for len3 or joe to ask everette and lamb what gaetti was like as a hitting coach. not sure he did everette much good. did he get a job anywhere?
Jason says:
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:11 pm
jimmy bee….you could argue the Twins would be just as good with their 2003 infield (except for Morneau over Mientkiewicz) this season…
you could have Ortiz in the early lineup instead of Morneau. I would have to agree with you that I like the older lineup better. Hunter is way better then anyone in our outfield.
Hey, Anybody! What’s Cruddier’s status?
Questions:
Approximately how many of the commenters who want Vavra’s head, have been in attendance at one of his hitting lectures, lessons or discussions?
How many of those who answered “yes”, have attended the hitting lectures, lessons or discussions of other MLB hitting instructors?
How many of those with two “yes” answers have written down the differences in techniques being taught between Vavra and the other MLB hitting instuctors?
How many of those can explain why Vavra’s techniques are inferior?
Answers: Nobody, nobody, nobody and nobody.
The results are seldom TOTALLY the fault of the process.
Vavra’s performance is evaluated constantly by people who can answer yes to some of those questions.
sane…
Question: How many of those who have an opinion on the quality of Joe Vavra’s work base it on the quality of the Twins’ offense during his tenure?
All that other junk you cite pales in comparison to the above question, which is the bottom line question asked by every sports executive in America when it comes to whether or not they will make a coaching change.
There’s a reason Rick Anderson continues to have his job and no one questions it, and it’s not because he has a likeable, flamboyant personality…it’s because the Twins win with pitching.
results sane!
so how bad does the hitting have to get before a change is ok? explain how the results we see are good!
are you defending him based on your expertise as a professional hitter or because he is getting good results?
Sane i do understand your point but i agree with Jason and Gobble i honestly haven’t seen any of the current Twins players become better hitters under his tutelage.
Sane look at Ortiz’s average and HR’s when he was traded to Boston. He went to a new park and had a new hitting coach added. Also don’t try to tell me it is because it is a band box I know this already. But Fenway is only a bandbox if you bat right handed
sane
I think the problem goes beyond the hitting coach, so I’m not going to pile on Vavra. The fact that the Twins never seem to change personnel makes me skeptical that he is being evaluated “constantly” in amy meaningful way or with any real consequences one way or the other.
to defend vavra he wasn’t the hitting coach when ortiz was here.
waiting for your reply sane!
“All that other junk you cite pales in comparison”
“All the other junk” is totally independent of non-Vavra factors.
There are other variables in the process which Vavra doesn’t control which affect the results.
Everything I brought up is TOTALLY dependent on Vavra’s part of the process.
It’s like blaming your children’s behavior on your wife.
I was watching Neshek the other day and he looked like his wind up was a little more herky jerky to me from previous years. His ERA is up a bit and I wonder if this is causing it. My wife and I think he looks like the Tin Man in the Wizard of OZ during his wind up or like Elaine’s dancing style from Seinfeld during his windup
gobble,
Sorry.
I type slowly and think even more slowly.
Plus, I stop to eat lunch.
I’ll try not to let that happen again.
Okay Joe Vavra. Very funny passing yourself off as a fan with the name Sane. Let me ask you this Sane or Joe V. or whatever you want us to call you. During spring training, many of the Twins’ hitters were seeking out advice from the coaches that were in camp and commonly commented on how great it was to have such coaches to get advice from. Why is it I heard them mention Harmon, Carew, Molitor and Oliva, but I have never heard a player praise Joe V. for helping him improve his swing. Vavra had to feel like a junior high science teacher in a room full of Noble Prize winners. The guy is worthless.
BC,
How do the stats for Cuddyer, Harris, Bartlett, Hunter and Morneau compare to that under their previous MLB hitting instructors.
Here’s the problem, sane: All those things you say we don’t ‘know’ about Vavra, you don’t know either. You don’t know if he’s the Albert Einstein of hitting or not, if his techniques, seminars, methods, etc. are world reknown or not….but what we do know is the team isn’t hitting. Take Morneau off this team and their offense would be the worst in baseball; in ‘07 they were pretty much the worst in baseball.
So the point is, the coaches’ get too much credit and good times and too much blame in bad times–unfortunately for Vavra, we’re in bad times. He’ll have at least half this season to turn it around, but pretty soon Gardy/Bill Smith will have to make a choice–either make a change at hitting coach, or risk having the change made on them.
Maybe the hitters should have said “Harmon, Carew, Molitor and Oliva” don’t know cr-p about hitting. That will give the hitters real credibility.
Also, check the Twin ST batting stats.
Maybe, those guys didn’t help much.
it’s still results sane. the team was near last in hitting last yr and worse this year. you can’t change all the hitters so the only option is to try a new coach. they started out ok last yr and steadily went down toward the bottom. this year continues the steady decline.
sorry thought you were mad and left.
Sane if the Twins ERA was a combined 6-7 would you say that Anderson was doing his job then
Jason,
My point is that I don’t KNOW how good or bad Vavra is either. I don’t rip him or defend him because I DON’T KNOW.
His critics DON’T KNOW EITHER, but they call for his job anyway.
See if you can find where I said he is a good coach - NEVER!!
My whole point is HIS CRITICS KNOW NOTHING about what he teaches.
They judge on results ONLY and bad results don’t always equal a bad process.
Someone on the blogs over the weekend blasted Boof. I have no idea why.
After losing Garza, Santana and Silva, Boof’s response was 3 quality starts his first 3 games this year. Much needed.
His last start was a bust, because his curve was missing. So we’ll be watching him tomorrow.
But how can you knock the guy the way he started this year?
Someone mentioned Anderson as a good example of good coaching. This is a great point, because since he has been here the Twins have had strong pitching. He’s taken guys who were marginal (Reyes as an example) and worked to improve their skills and the results are measurable. Vavra has shown no ability to improve the Twins’ offense.
gobble,
I’m seldom angry, but I may be mad in the other sense of the word.
I know firing coaches for results is a fact of life, but it shouldn’t be.
I can evaluate a coach very well if I see him work and compare him to other coaches - if I am close enough to observe them.
There are too many variables affecting results to use results as the sole criteria when evaluating a coach.
sane says:
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:07 pm
BC,
How do the stats for Cuddyer, Harris, Bartlett, Hunter and Morneau compare to that under their previous MLB hitting instructors.
Sane let me answer your question with a question when’s the last time the Twins as a “team” lead the league in any offensive category?
ES16,
How did Anderson do with Ramon Ortiz, Ponson, Rincon, JD Durbin, Kevin Cameron, Lohse and Joe Mays?
I love Anderson, but all coaches have their successes and failures.
the reality is bad results get front office and coaches fired, with the exception of mcfail & co.
a lot of good people, coaches, managers, congress man everyday working people have lost jobs when the reqults were bad even when it wasn’t their fault.
BC,
They led the league in hitting the last time they brought in high-priced free agent hitters. That was the same year they drafted hitters (instead of pitchers) and had good hitters in the farm system.
The year was……….NEVER.
gobble,
You are 100% correct.
But I don’t like making judgements on results alone.
That’s why I lose these arguments.
You can always look at an aspect of a team and find individual failure/success stories. But to evaluate the success of a coach you have to look at the overall results. Over the course of Anderson’s time here the pitching staff as a whole has been strong. Have there been bad pitchers? Of course, but I would argue that there have been far more successes than failures on the pitching staff.
You hire a coach for results. You don’t hire him because he’s a good guy who tries hard.
ES16,
How about hiring him because he is a good coach who can make chicken salad out of chicken sh-t.
my final point is we are getting better pitching then last year and overall wasting it. hitting has declined steadily over the last yr plus, i see no other option replace the hitting coach and hope the change is positive.
sane,
I don’t consider lohse, mays or durbin Rick Anderson failures.
Durbin never made it to the majors with Minnesota to learn from Anderson. Mays was a TJ failure, he never recovered from the surgery. Lohse had an attitude problem and didn’t take instruction.
Back after 2 hours and we’re still on the hitting coach. Put Molitor in there or anyone else. Fire Vavra it isn’t going to make that much of a difference. Once they step in the box it’s up to them. Vavra simply gives them advice on how the pitchers have approched hitter this season and looks for obvious flaws and bad habits that are developing. These are MLB ball players. He can’t hold there hand like it is little leauge. Even my college hitting coach let us swing the way we wanted to because he figured we had gotten to this level becasue we knew what we were doing. But as soon as we got into a bad habit he was on us hard about it. But once we got into that box we could either listen to his instruction or go right back to the old habits again.
Who was/were our hitting coach(es) between Crowley and Vavra?
Crowley left in 98 and Vavra became the hitting coach in 2006.
Molitor was here for 2 seasons (2000-2001), but I don’t know if he was the hitting coach during that time.
sane–
The point is, no one cares what his methods, techniques, motivational tools, etc. are…we never claimed to know them, we don’t care…it’s not the measuring stick.
The fact is the measuring stick I cited (on-the-field results) is the one every baseball exec. in America uses in evaluating coaches. So your point about what we do or don’t know on his techniques, etc., is, to me, irrelevant.
sane says:
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:37 pm
ES16,
How about hiring him because he is a good coach who can make chicken salad out of chicken sh-t.
ha ha ha ha ha I like that one sane
sane i want you to know that i don’t think he’s completly worthless as a hitting coach and your right i have no idea what techniques he uses. Can you honeslty say that while playing sports you’ve never had a really good coach? I know i have and as a result i was able to learn more from them. Like you said it definetly helps to have the talent to begin with but were not the Yankees and never will be.
I wasn’t thrilled when Vavra got the job, although I certainly was in favor of finding someone other than Ullger to fill the role of hitting coach. The problem is that the guys most of us would have liked to see in the position didn’t want the job (e.g. Molitor).
I do think the problem goes deeper than Joe Vavra, whatever his knowledge/talents may be. It’s not like the Twins’ minor league coaches are developing boatloads of offensive talent that make it to the big club and suddenly can’t hit.
There seems to be a definite need for a new organizational strategy for developing hitters at all levels.
Sweet one,
You left out Ullger.
sane,
Ullger’s bio never lists him as a hitting coach. It only lists him as a 1B and 3B coach.
Are you saying that Ullger was the hitting coach between 1999-2005?
it’s funny when dick such was pitching coach we were mostly not a very good pitching team. when anderson took over pitching became our strong point. may be an organizational change in philos. or lucky timing for anderson.
Jason,
“the measuring stick I cited (on-the-field results) is the one every baseball exec. in America uses in evaluating coaches”
That’s because it is the EASIEST measuring stick to use.
It is not the BEST, unless you can factor out ALL other factors which are independent of the coach who is being evaluated.
No, sane…this is what you’re not getting…they don’t use it because it’s the EASIEST measuring stick to use, they use it because it’s the most RELEVANT measuring stick.
sweet one,
Yes, Ullger was the hitting coach, but maybe not the entire period.
Most coaches have multiple duties like Jerry White is 1B coach along with coaching OF and baserunning.
Many have practice assignments and gameday assignments.
Jason,
One of us is not getting it, but I am sure we disagree on who that is.
Thanks sane,
You would think that hitting coach would be listed as it is one of the top coaching positions.
If I coach Ohio State football this year and Gopher football next year, will I be a better coach this year?
How much will my IQ go down next year?
Which team would fare better in a 162 game schedule - assuming they both played in the same divison (i.e. same schedule) and everyone on the DL is healthy (i.e. Cuddyer, Everett)?
C - Mauer
1B - Morneau
2B - Harris
SS - Everett
3B - Lamb
LF - Young
CF - Gomez
RF - Cuddyer
DH - Kubel
Bench: Redmond, Tolbert, Punto, Monroe
SP: Livian, Boof, Blackburn, Baker, Liriano
Pen: Guerrier, Bass, Reyes, Rincon, Crain, Neshek, Nathan
OR…
C - A.J.
1B - Mencavich
2B - Castillo
SS - Bartlett
3B - Casey Blake
LF - Jacque Jones
CF - Torii
RF - Stewart
DH - Big Papi
Bench: Chad Moeller, Guzman, Rivas, Kielty
SP: Santana, Silva, Lohse, Garza, Kenny Rogers
Pen: Redman, Hawkins, Guardado, Romero, Durbin, Todd Jones
Discuss…
I’ll say that you aren’t getting it Sane, If you are the CFO at a corporation and the company has to file for bankruptcy, it doesn’t matter that you are good with numbers and you think you have a good approach to finances, you are going to get canned. Results are the measuring stick, not the effort.
dude, you’re not getting it….your argument is premised on amazing deferences that you are handing to Vavra…you’re basically assuming his skills as a hitting coach are defacto far superior to any other (as if it were Phil Jackson trying to coach the Timberwolves or something)…
We’re not talking about how well Joe Blow would do as the Twins’ hitting coach…we’re talking about Joe Vavra–a hand-picked coaching professional. The team, which is also a group of hand-picked professionals, is not responding to his coaching. Therefore, performance becomes the most relevant factor in this equation.
ES16,
I KNOW that is the measuring stick.
I don’t think it measures CORRECTLY, the REAL VALUE of the CFO/coach.
LOL Brasky…who’s Mencavich?
I think Mencavich would probably hit .470 with 50 HR and 130 RBI.
sane-bad example to be the coach of Ohio State you would actually need to know quite a bit about football. To be the coach of the U of M you would need to look like a cheesy used car salesman like current coach and total failure Brewster
Bill Brasky the second one Mauer is Overrated
I was going to go even further and suggest that sane’s football hypo would be off the map because the Buckeyes’ record would go down but the Gophers’ record would probably improve…
sane says:
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:02 pm
If I coach Ohio State football this year and Gopher football next year, will I be a better coach this year?
How much will my IQ go down next year?
Sane if you left Ohio State to go to the UofM your IQ may have hit rock bottom already.
So sane if i was a math teacher and i used all the techniques and tools required by the board of education it wouldn’t matter if my class finished at the bottom of every standadized test right?
We gotta get this Mencavich guy….is he available?
What is the real value? He’s a swell guy? He’s a crackup in the clubhouse? He’s a sharp dresser? He knows the names of all the major league teams and can find their cities on a map? Tell us please, what is the true value of Joe V.?
I would tell the Twins to get a batting coach from Boston or the Yankee’s but Pohlad is so tight on a penny he could crush one in his Burns like penny pinching finger tips
I assume nothing about Vavra’s skills because I know nothing about his skills.
Ullger was just as (un)successful before him and the next guy will probably be the same. If Vavra coached the Yankees, would he then become a great coach because the Yankees hit the cr-p out of the ball?
RESULTS!!
But Vavra would still be the same coach.
Sane-bad example to be the coach of Ohio State you would actually need to know quite a bit about football. To be the coach of the U of M you would need to look like a cheesy used car salesman like current coach and total failure Brewster
BC,
“Sane if you left Ohio State to go to the UofM your IQ may have hit rock bottom already”
GREAT COMEBACK!!!!
OK, so if you know nothing about his skills, but you do know that our offense has regressed during his tenure, then you’re arguing for him to stay why again?
At least with Gardy we know he has 4 division titles under his belt and with Anderson we see the results on the field…
Tell us please, what is the true value of Joe V.?
Maybe he can make chicken salad out of chicken… I guess I said that already.
Maybe he can teach hitters to hit better than they can without him.
Joe Vavra is the Brewster of the Twins coaching staff!!!
Jason,
Because Gardy hired him and sees him work every day.
If he was a bad coach, his bosses and his peers would replace him.
He won’t get fired by a bunch of guys looking over their keyboards into a monitor.
sane says:
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Jason,
Because Gardy hired him and sees him work every day.
If he was a bad coach, his bosses and his peers would replace him.
He may work for allot less $$$ then others would and that is eye catching to Pohlad
The true value of Joe Vavra is:
2007:
.264 avg. / 118 HR / 671 RBI
2006:
.287 avg. / 143 HR / 754 RBI
2005:
.259 avg. / 134 HR / 644 RBI
JimCriccket has it correct. The organization has failed to develop hitters for about a decade. It is not all on Vavra (though some could be).
Current starters in the field drafted by the tiwns:
Mauer, Morneau, Cuddeyer, Kubel
Current starters in the field not drafted by the twins:
Lamb, Everret, Harris, Young, Gomez.
Also, no one came up last year from the minors as a hitter. No one came up the year before, or the year before that. Now, they had a decent run with mauer and morneau and probably Kubel and maybe Cuddeyer, but that is it. No 3B or DH for, what, 5 years?
This is an organizational issue, not just/mostly a Vavra issue.
Gentlemen,
I’ve enjoyed talking with you, but its 2:24 here in SoCal and I have to go
f-ck up my own team.
Have a good one!
sane where in socal u from I am a pasadena and glendora local
Go Dodger Blue
Sane, so Gardy should have kept the pitching coach that was there before? TK saw Such coach for years, and not one pitcher EVER got better under him. Just because someone has their job for some time, and just because he hasn’t been fired yet, doesn’t mean he shouldn’t be.
Now, I’m just attacking your latest piece of logic, not your conclusion.
sane- where in socal
and kevin mchale is a great gm at least to the one person that matters the guy who signs his checks! nobody hear has a ticket to the game tonight so nothing said today has any validity anyway! have a nice night.
giving sane every benefit, he’s basically running with the Sid Hartman line here in saying that there can never be a basis for a coach to be fired because they don’t play the games themselves…
I am going to give Vavra all the benefit of the doubt and say he knows his s—, he works hard, he’s easy to work with, likeable, and strives to get better….but at the end of the day if it still adds up to negative results, I’m going to pat the guy on the back and say ‘business is business, hope you enjoyed the opportunity’ and move on…but that’s just me. Baseball is big business–we’re not talking about a Little League coach…you don’t earn your keep through being a hard worker (unless you’re Punto, of course), you earn your keep through wins and losses…period.
mike,
To steal from an earlier post:
The Twins led the league in hitting the last time they brought in high-priced free agent hitters. That was the same year they drafted hitters (instead of pitchers) and had good hitters in the farm system.
The year was……….NEVER.
I’m pissed I wish I was back home in So-Cal
I’m out and have a nice game watching night everyone….
in 01 the twins lead the league and probably 92. 91; ave .280 #1, obp .342 #1, slg .420 #2, 4.80 runs a gm. wouldn’t that look good with this pitching staff! been a while!
mike wants wins says: “JimCriccket has it correct. The organization has failed to develop hitters for about a decade. It is not all on Vavra (though some could be).”
This could be true. And at the same time it could also be true that the Twins have had 2 bad hitting coaches in a row.
How about we all look and see what Vavra does with Young. Should be a good litmous test.
i want to invite everyone to check out my Twins Blog website i have a minor league update every morning and any other news i can come up with so hopefully everyone will check out my website. travistwinstalk.blogspot.com
Thanks
Young, Gomez, Tolbert… maybe even Buscher and Span. At various points in the year perhaps Buscher, Casilla, Pridie and others. There will be no shortage of young hitters in the Twins’ batting cage this summer for Vavra to work with.
I agree, seeing what sort of improvments the young hitters show over the course of this season will be a fair test.
I’ve read most of the comments. Sane I agree with some of what you say. But lets not assume Vavra is still here because of his performance. As a Twins fan WE KNOW how loyal this organiztion is. While it is complimentary on many levels it is a very painful situation if the employee is of lesser quality. The Twins are loyal to a fault. We’ve seen that with coaches like Ulger. We’ve seen it with players, like Punto. And IMO if this team doesn’t hit better than last year when you’ve traded a top prize pitcher for a top prize hitter. Added Harris. And sacrificed defense for hitting (Lamb). Plus gotten rid of a lot of dead weight (Tyner, Ford, Rodriguez). Given time to Kubel. THEN you have to question Vavra regardless of the job he does. If there is not significant improvement this year, then he has to go.
Period.
Thanks Travis. Looks like good stuff. I’ve added you to my favorites.
romer,
Two bad MLB hitting coaches in a row would not cause the hitting problems which reach from AAA all the way down to Rookie League and has lasted since Mauer and Morneau reached MLB.
It has come about from years of pitcher-first drafting and pitcher-first trade returns. (when the Twins trade veterans for prospects)
JP,
I agree.
If this year’s upgrades in MLB hitting talent is not reflected in MLB batting stats, then a shakeup will be warranted next offseason.
