What else can be said about Liriano?
Posted on August 4th, 2008 – 10:14 AMBy La Velle
I’m just glad Francisco Liriano is up here so we all can see what type of pitcher he is after relying on the reports of Twins officials and boxscores.
We kept hearing about how his slider was back, how his fastball was improving and that it seemed like he was getting close to the pitcher he once was. When Rochester manager Stan Cliburn told me during a radio show that Liriano hit 99 on the gun during one outing this season, part of me was like, `O.K., the gun had to be malfunctioning at the time.”
I think he’s close to what he once was. A fastball that topped out at 93 on Sunday, a slider in the low-to-mid 80’s instead of the slider from hell two years ago, and a change up that’s pretty good. Can he gain a mile an hour or two with time? Sure. But there’s always a chance he won’t be more than he is now - which means he can still be a pretty good pitcher.
The Twins were very impressed with his bullpen outing on Friday. They saw late movement on his pitches, which is important. And pitching coach Rick Anderson saw a more confident pitcher.
“It was a good thing to pitch all those innings in Rochester,” Anderson said. “He doesn’t think about it anymore, His bullpen (Friday) showed a whole different guy than we saw earlier.”
At the beginning of the year, Liriano threw his slider with more of a overhand motion, which differed from how he threw his fastball and changeup. Not only can hitters pick up on that, Liriano was throwing sloppy curves half the time with it. He told me Rochester pitching coach Stu Cliburn worked with him patiently to get him to throw his slider with the same three-quarters motion as his other pitches. And we all saw the results on Sunday.
“I think he was a little tentative with (throwing the slider),” Anderson said. “Now all three pitches are coming out of the same slot.”
It’s been very interesting to cover Liriano’s return from Tommy John surgery. He had to recover from surgery. He had to get his arm ready to pitch again. And he had to regain the confidence to throw all his pitches while avoiding the same mistakes that led to the injury.
62 Responses to "What else can be said about Liriano?"
Bring me back some discounted Supersonics apparel please!
Lavelle
I believe you mean a slider in the low to mid 80s.
I believe his next outting is going to be much better. I realize you can’t do better than scoreless, but he will have more command. He had to command the baseball better in AAA to put up those numbers. I suspect he was a little too jacked up and that impacted his control. Not sure how accurate the gameday is for AAA, but he was right on the knees and corners consistently.
As you pointed out, his overall velocity is down. However, it is still way above average and I actually think his movement is better! His changeup and fastball bit hard. The slider was still very nasty. Right handers gotta hate facing him as he just pounds inside with that pitch and his fastball.
I look forward to seeing him pitch the rest of the year, because I think he has a lot of room for improvement. His delivery was effortless compared to a couple years ago.
As an out-of-towner, I was unable to watch Sunday’s game. Was Liriano’s delivery rough like ‘06 or is he throwing a little easier. I am really excited he is back, but I am concerned about him lasting through September. I don’t know how many of you read that ESPN article about him when he was called up earlier this year, but the writer seemed concerned he would never be able to pitch with that delivery for a full season.
But I am glad he is up and really pumped for the Twins. This will at least equal out the Casilla lose, and probably do better. No reason we can’t hold off the Sox. We have an easy schedule coming up.
Liriano’s delivery is smoother
If you wanna watch out of market, then get mlb.tv. Its a good value because you can watch almost all of the games from across the league. As far as the smoothness of his delivery, he is definitely better in that department. Not nearly as violent as he was in 2006. True, his performance could have been better. He could have thrown more first pitch strikes and more strikes in general. But still, Cleveland never came close to touching him. The worst jam, in the third, was a result of a couple walks and an error. Absent the error or one of the walks, there would have been no problem. Still, he got out of it. He had Cleveland eating out of his hands most of the day. Next start, hopefully he sheds his nervousness, gains more control, maybe a little more velocity (not that he needs it, but it would be nice), little more consistent bite on the slider (again, not that he needs it), and then watch out! Stick with the Twins!
I am in Madison WI and strongly recommend MLBTV. Can’t wait to move back in a couple years.
Is it worth buying the premium MLBTV or is the regular adequate?
Displaced…. i have been too cheap to buy the premium on Directv.
I’d like more HD, but i already pay for HD and i already pay fore MLB
so, i think regular is adequate
These next 2 nights are going to be tough. I hate living on the east coast when the team plays out west…..
lets score early runs guys 
Let’s not just to rash conclusions. Just because he pitched one good game does not equate to him being back in ‘06 form. Give him a few more starts before we rush to judgement
It seemed his delivery is a lot smoother but his slider still looked pretty wicked. He has room to get better, mostly command wise, but he’s instantly the best pitcher on our staff.
This has been a great week and a half for me. I got to travel back home to watch the Twins-Sox series last week and now the Twins came back to the Northwest with me and I get to watch a 3 game set in beautiful Safeco.
LEN III
What slider were you watching on Sunday? Liriano’s slider was not even close to low to mid 90’s. It was low to mid 80’s. I hope that was a typo because a mid 90’s slider would be virtually unhittable.
Patrick
He is instantly the best pitcher on the staff? Right now I would take Baker ten out of ten times before Liriano. Liriano still lacks control of his pitches and tends to overthrow in big situations. I’m not saying Liriano can’t eventually be the ace but right now he is not on Baker’s level.
Even if Liriano never gets back his former speed, his first outing showed that he will be a formidable pitcher. Even so, Cleveland helped him out by swinging at a lot of balls well out of the zone. In his next outing Liriano will probably face batters determined to make him throw more strikes.
Can Liriano relax, find his rhythm and strike out batters that display more plate discipline? I will certainly be watching to find out!
If yesterday’s game had been against the Yankees, Boston, or any other patient team, Liriano would’ve gotten rocked. He needs to throw more pitches for strikes if he’s going to have long-term success up here and help the Twins beat tougher teams.
As HoSink pointed out. Liriano doesn’t have to be as good as his ‘06 numbers he just has to be better than Livan Hernandez’s 2008 numbers. Which will be hard for him not to do.
I got to watch the 4th, 5th and 6th innings and what I saw was very good command with all his misses well out of the strike zone. I think most of his misses were purposeful to keep hitters from getting too comfortable. I can’t recall even one miss in someones wheelhouse. But, I don’t think we can expect a showing like this every time. He’s gonna have better days and worse days. But it sure looks like he’s back and will be able to really help out.
Just got back from a walk, and, yes, I meant a slider in the 80’s. Sorry about that. I was in a rush to get out this morning and didn’t do a great job of self-editing.
“If yesterday’s game had been against the Yankees, Boston, or any other patient team, Liriano would’ve gotten rocked. He needs to throw more pitches for strikes if he’s going to have long-term success up here and help the Twins beat tougher teams.”
Agreed and I’m sure thats a focus for the next few starts. With so many people calling for his return the past 2-3 wks, you raise a good point that the Twins picked a good opponent to match him up with. At Yankee Stadium or v. either Sox may have been ugly.
I’m in Des Moines with DirecTV and lucky enough that six midwest teams all consider my part of Iowa their territory. That means by buying the premium sports channel package, I can see all the games from the Twins, Brewers, Royals, White Sox, Cardinals and Cubs for about $14 a month. (The Sunday Twins games not on Fox Sports North are on a spillover channel). It’s about territory, so it won’t all necessarily apply to other regions, such as in Wisconsin. I also have the MLB Extra Innings package, which picks up the other major league teams — but can black out the six regional teams if they’re not available on their regular channels. In any event, DirecTV is so much better than cable just for the baseball.
Liriano looked good. A little rough around the edges and not quite the control he should have; but all in all a very encouraging outing.
He probably will get some velocity back by next season barring any setbacks. If you add a 1 or 2 miles per hour to the fast ball and slider, he will be really good. That being said, I think this is a good thing for him. Since he can’t just blow everybody away, he has to learn to pitch. When to hump up on a fastball or when to locate it. I think this sets up well for 2010. Go twins!
Why people (especially people paid money I’d love to be making to write about the Twins!) keep saying they couldn’t watch him in AAA I don’t understand. TV coverage of a bunch of his AAA starts was and is available on minor league baseball’s website for free (you only have to pay to watch games live — as soon as they’re archived watch all you like). Having actually taken the time to watch him pitch several games at Rochester (including the last time he supposedly got hit hard back in June, which in fact featured him getting killed by bush league defense while pitching fairly well), I feel good in saying he was far from his (contemporary) best yesterday: after one pitch I thought he looked REALLY, obviously nervous and continued to think so throughout. His control issues were in large part due to nerves and I will be surprised if they don’t diminish dramatically in the next start or two. His post-game remarks (that he was, indeed, a nervous wreck) were no surprise to me.
As to the rest of the performance, it was good that he mostly missed down and nice to see a Twins starting pitcher inducing groundballs in bunches. If not for the defensive issues (I love Brendon Harris, actually, but he is NOT an MLB-quality defensive shortstop, and Brian Buscher should be the Twins’ DH — not 3rd baseman — against RH pitching with Andy LaRoche at third, but unfortunately for us Bill Smith lacks the wherewithal to notice a silver platter when it’s laid out for him) things would’ve looked a lot smoother, with him going into the 7th inning with a pitch count in the 70s.
I thought his first two innings went smoothly because the Indians were jumping out at the first few pitches. Once they shouldered the bats in the 3rd inning, he looked less dominant despite not allowing any runs.
I hope he does well, but don’t expect “the Franchise” to be an ace this year, expect him to compete at about the same level as the other 4 young pitchers.
He was effectively wild, but to say he couldn’t do that against other “quality” teams isn’t right. His “misses” were at the knees or a hard slider inside. Misses like that are ok with me. And Cleveland was patient, but with 2 strikes a ball that starts at thigh high down the middle and then breaks in and off the plate… a lot of guys are bound to swing through that. His slider isn’t supposed to be a strike, it’s supposed to be a swinging miss at a ball.
jama-
wanted to amend that statement that Baker is up there as a better starter (at the moment) and of course Nathan as a pitcher in general, but I thought it too late. Still, he instantly becomes ONE of the best pitchers on the staff even with the rust and recovery.
Punto’s tremendous DP in the 4th saved Liriano and the Twins yesterday.
Put any of our 5-core on just about any other team and they will not have the success they’re having.
My eyes will be on Beltre and BS tonight. Don’t try and hide from me, Smith.
LENIII-
You definitely have the weather to do some walking. Where’d you go? How does Seattle rate on your MLB city scale? To me, when the weather is like it is now, not many cities beat it.
How much better are we having Liriano instead of Livan? Just to jump off of Francisco for a second what are your thoughts on this? When Cuddyer gets back play him at 3B against RH pitchers and DH him against lefties with Buscher playing 3rd. This keeps Span in the lineup all the time. I don’t know if playing him at 3B again is even a consideration but this is just a thought.
While Liriano did not throw consistent first pitch strikes and had some control issues.
My impressions were he was nervous (and he admits that), but his pitches were not missing by much and for the most part, his ball was kept down.
Also, the fielding behind him was terrible. Mistakes by Busher, Harris and Kubel made him have to work harder to get out of jams.
But, what I liked most out of this start was that when Cleveland hit the ball, they were ground balls and weak bloop hits. No one hit him hard.
So we can obsess about how fast his pitches were and he is not throwing as hard as he once was. Big deal.
He struck out a fair number of batters, had a good number of ground ball outs and gave up weak hits. I will take that for his first start.
Can he improve his control? Yep, but to me he does not need to jack up the radar gun to be effective.
Displaced in Milwaukee says:
August 4th, 2008 at 11:32 am
Is it worth buying the premium MLBTV or is the regular adequate?
I get premium. It’s much better in my opinion. premium gets you the HD feeds when available. Since most games are in HD these days, it’s an outstanding value considering premium doesn’t cost much more.
On second thought just keep Cuddy at 3B all the time. He would be better out there than Buscher:)!
Keep in mind though with MLB.TV Premium the feeds are NOT in HD-but you may get widescreen. You get to watch either an 800k or 1.2 meg stream; unfortunately the latter has not worked for a lot of people recently.
this was against a very bad hitting team where he had many 3 ball counts and un disciplined batters swinging at many pitches that were not strikes while also getting a couple questionable strike calls, but you have them in every game, to help bail him out - and his next game is against a bad hitting KC squad - maybe this is a good way to break him in but he was not dominant - lets see what he can do when he faces a team that actually has some good hitters
The biggest thing about Liriano’s outing yesterday was that he pitched 6 SO innings and got his first major league win after his operation.
A very big milestone to build upon. The details about velocity, slider brake and control are secondary.
and his next game is against a bad hitting KC squad
That’s what Mark Buerhle and Clayton Richard thought.
Whattodo, you have a short memory. Cruddy was horrible at 3b. Worse than Buscher (which is saying some thing, cause he cannot throw and has no range).
6 shutout innings isn’t dominant? The biggest thing I seen from him is his confidence. When he got into a little trouble he focused and got the outs. These weren’t Triple A hitters these guys are in the majors, his slider was nasty, and his fastball had some pop. Frankie is just what we need right now, a ace..
I also get mlb.tv premium and it is well worth the extra money. We use our plasma TV as a monitor when the games are on, and the clarity is similar to regular tv. There is no way we could do that with the standard mlb.tv package. It’s black and white TV vs. color TV as far as the viewing experience in my opinion.
can anybody who went to the game on sunday tell me how the crowd reacted to liriano’s first appearance home. considering the drama this past month, i would love to know that he understands we’ve all been waiting for him for a long time.
uz - The crowd gave a nice ovation when he was introduced in the lineup. Probalby the loudest of all the starters. After he struck out the final out in the 1st, some people stood and clapped. It was a good time!
Whose spot did he take in the rotation? Is it permanent or is someone injured?
The Twins and Sox have played almost even to this point of the season, both having equal amount of losses. They both play poorly on the road and win at home.(like the pattern for most MLB teams this season). Most objective observers predict the division to be won by the Sox based on the home/road ratio for the rest of the season. The teams now switch places. The Twins play a majority of their games on the road, the Sox a majority at home. And the Twins play a 14 game, 15 day road trip, not 2 normal 7 game trips. History suggest that both teams will not change very much in the last 2 months. Emotion by the fans will not overcome the schedule that that awaits the Twins. Playerwise, the Sox may want it a bit more because of age and veteran status. Younger players admit later on that they thought it would always be there. Sox win the division this year. Twins look to the future.
LIRIANO DID GREAT,DO YOU WANT BLOOD THE 1ST TIME AROUND?
Chico, I’d rather go with the Twins remaining schedule over W Sox remaining schedule still
Sooooo excited that he’s back! When he went down with the injury in ‘06 he was poised to become the rookie of the year and win over 20 games. It was such a sad day when we realized that wouldn’t happen. Liriano has great stuff, reminiscent of that Santana power. I remember being so happy back then that we had not one-but two-of the best pitchers in baseball. Happy day in MN for us all!!!
Twins have an easier schedule based on won/lost record. However the still play the Yankees, Angels and TB as do the Sox. The CWS do play Boston. Still that 14 GAME ROAD trip will do the Twins in. They have had the Dome advantage. Now it’s time to play in real major league parks. Not by a lot, but Sox prevail.
Liriano had a good outing, but whats going to happen when he faces a good line up. The Cleveland line is nothing to write home about.
The one thing that I saw when Liriano pitched was how low he got when he delivered. That might be due to the camera angle though.
Real major league parks? Last I checked, line drive hits work in any park. 2 out hits with runners in scoring position work in any park. It’s easier to bunt on real grass. Oh, and the bases are still 90 feet apart. I’m cool with it. The Twins are like most winning teams, win more at home, but not terrible on the road.
I am going to cut and paste Chico’s comments into a word file so when the season is over he can eat crow, assuming he is wrong. His writings here make it seem like he has a crystal ball, what with his seeming statements of “fact.” Yet despite his feigned confidence, they are nothing more than opinion, just like one predicting a division title for the Twins would be. We all know about opinions.
The W. Sox have a MUCH tougher schedule than we do. Twins:
SEA- 9 times (3 home) Last Place
KC- 9 times (6 home) 4th Place
NYY- 3 times (3 home) 3rd Place
LAA- 4 (0) 1st
CHI- 3 (3) 2nd
OAK- 7 (3) 3rd
BAL- 3 (0) Last
CLE- 3 (0) Last
TB- 4 (0) 1st
TOR- 3 (0) 4th
DET- 3 (3) 3rd.
Pretty easy schedule.
(Below Is A Repost)
Liriano looked pretty good. Not 2006 good mind you, but pretty good.
The positives: He didn’t allow a run. He over came an error and a bad play. He only gave up 3 hits. He made pitches when it counted.
The negatives: He walked 3. He struggled with control at times. He had many 3 ball counts. Had a (somewhat) high pitch count in the 6th inning. His velocity was down slightly. And, lest we forget, he was facing a (very) bad and (honestly) weak lineup.
Overall: Definitely a solid outing, and while it could have gone better, went about as well as one could hope for a first outing. Major points for a shut out. A very promising start, and I believe that he will get better as the season goes on- which is good because he will have to get better to beat playoff teams. Has the potential to be very dominating once again- and Possibly by the end of the season too. A major step forward today.
One man’s assessment and grade: B+
(Not A- because of the -’s I pointed out and the difficulty of team faced)
**The Twins should have made some kind of trade**
Johnnyonthe spot: I’ll be here to report on the Sox first round opponent. If the Twins make it, give me a fork. Respectfully, Chico
Sox beat the tough teams at home. Road /home ratio much better indicator this season all across MLB. No different with Twins / Sox. Sox win the thing by 5 games.
I agree: Too many Twins fans doing too much predicting. Give me some salt and pepper if I am wrong Johnny! Chico
Sorry, I realized I should have posted this too. Chicago Sox shedule:
SEA- 3 times (3 home) Last Place
KC- 6 times (3 home) 4th Place
NYY- 4 times (0 home) 3rd Place
LAA- 3 (3) 1st
MIN- 3 (0) 2nd
OAK- 3 (0) 3rd
BAL- 3.5 (.5) Last- Suspended game pickup
CLE- 6 (3) Last
TB- 3 (3) 1st
TOR- 4 (4) 4th
DET- 6 (6) 3rd
BOS- 7 (4) 2nd
Pitching is about location, confidence, deception, and movement. Velocity isn’t that big of a thing, highly overrated.
I think Liriano did a great job, nervous, yes, but there was fire in his eyes and confusion on many of the Cleveland faces as they walked to the dugout.
Tongue-in-cheek comment …
It’s about time they brought Liriano back. The banner on the Twins section of the Star Tribune web site showed his picture along with Morneau & Mauer all summer long. They didn’t take it down, even though he was gone for 3 months. Way to stay up-to-date, Star Trombone.
Don’t the Twins have other marquee players to highlight while Mr. Lights Out was away? Time to hire a new Sports web director at the Strib.
Kevin, in general you are correct, but when you have the kind of velocity that he had before it is a big deal. Similar, Livan’s velocity, or lack of, is also very critical.
In general most mlb pitchers throw between 85-92 mph. Players are used to that velocity and all of the other factors way in bigger.
Don’t want to harsh anyone’s buzz, but that was an OK job yesterday. Velocity OK, not great, command not even OK (first 17 batters, 4 saw 1st pitch strikes). I do like the idea of putting him in place of Levan, can’t get ANY worse than that, but juries still out for now.
I don’t see any mea culpas from the flamethrowers who said the FO didn’t handle the Franchise properly this year.Even Lirano admits they brought him at the right time.Someone stated that one start is not enough of a sampling to draw conclusion from.Tough crowd!
