Twins Postgame: Good night and good morning.
Posted on August 5th, 2008 – 4:19 AMBy La Velle
Sorry this is so late. I was ready to post a hour after the game but the system shut down, my post was erased and I couldn’t access the system for awhile. I’ve been up stewing about it ever since.
Anyway, the best thing that happened on Monday was that Jason Kubel’s six-month old son is fine.
Kubel received word about 30 minutes before game time from his wife, Blake, that their son, Owen was having a scary reaction to something - they are still trying to find out what. Owen was rushed to a hospital in Minneapolis while Kubel took himself out of the game.
Kubel spent more than two hours at Safeco Field trying to monitor the situation from afar. Needless to say it was nerve-racking for him. But Owen’s condition improved and he was released. “They’re going to do tests to find out what happened,” Kubel said.
I don’t have kids, but it had to be tough for Kubel to be more than 1,000 miles away when his son was having trouble breathing. He looked like he had been through a lot.
On to regular programming….
Mike Redmond looked at me in the clubhouse and asked, “What happened?”
Whatever happened, it happened fast. The Twins seemed to be in full control of Monday’s game before the Mariners scored 10 runs in the seventh off of four pitchers. Everyone is to blame, but let’s start with Glen Perkins.
Perk got out of a bases-loaded jam in the sixth with just one run given up. But he loaded the bases again in the seventh before giving up a grand slam to Raul Ibanez, who had six RBI in the game. Perkins, facing the eight, nine and leadoff hitters, got ahead in the count but couldn’t finish the first two off. And it got worse from there.
“They found the holes,” he said. “I jammed (Yuniesky) Betancourt but he found a hole. Andy (pitching coach Rick Anderson) came out and talked about (Willie) Bloomquist and said throw him a good pitch down and away. Get him to hit a ground ball…..found a hole. Then I make a bad pitch to Ibanez and that sours the night.”
Perk wanted to go away with the pitch, but it went right down the runway. Grand Slam.
“That’s the last thing you want, a 6-5 game,” Perkins said. “Really disappointing.”
As Perk said, it was a game the Twins had in the bag before he made some bad pitches.
But the bullpen couldn’t bail him out.
Brian Bass faced two batters and gave up two hits.
Craig Breslow came in because Dennys Reyes was sent back to the hotel with food poisoning. He couldn’t get through the inning. In came Matt Guerrier, who gave up three earned runs in one-third of an inning.
“Our bullpen couldn’t get anybody out,” Twins manager Ron Gardenhire said. “Just terrible pitches and balls flying out all over the place.”
Gardenhire said the bullpen is beginning to get worn out. That’s why Perkins losing his grip on the game was so disappointing. But the bullpen has a 5.59 ERA on the road and 3.29 ERA home, which can’t be ignored.
The Twins need another reliever. I sense that they have lost faith in Bass and are worried that Guerrier and Jesse Crain are getting worn down. If Perkins gets through the seventh, the game is different. If the Twins score more runs - like they should have against a poor Mariners team - the game is different.
But if IF was a fifth we’d all be you-know-what. The reality is that Twins PR maven Dustin Morse will get up this morning and research the last time the Twins gave up 10 runs in one inning.
The game should have been in the bag.
135 Responses to "Twins Postgame: Good night and good morning."
I like how the Twinkies complain about how they found a hole here and found a hole there ….. thats how the Twins get 3/4 of their hits mixed with a bloop here and a little infield chopper there …… and these impressive pitchers … we couldn’t give up one of them for Beltre(other than Bonser but he’s garbage and any team knows that) ….. Bonser and Bass don’t even belong on a MLB roster …. and quit with all the IFS and SHOULD haves … every team can say that … just say THEY BLEW IT …. the Twins pitchers give up more hits than any team so sooner or later it will come back to BITE YA
typical letdown this team has had from time to time this year.. though another example was given as to why this bullpen needs help, it’s not that good
The twins must have somebody better then Bass or Bonser in triple A!
Cuddyer will not help the team when he returns, he will hinder it. He is a really ineffective player who thrives on diving for routine catches in the outfield and then watching himself on the big screen at the statiums. Cuddyer is an over rated player whose mind in stuck at the little league level and his playing performance is stuck at the minor league level. It is too bad for the Twins that they cannot trade him. He is excess baggage. Every time you watch him bat with runners in scoring position, he strikes out, then slams his bat down. Cuddyer is very clumsy for a professional athlete and often falls down for no apparent reason. I think the Twins would trade him, but they could only get an average minor league prospect for him.
A bad night, but it happens. What matters is how they bounce back.
The bullpen arm situation does need to be addressed, though, even more so now that Livan is gone and they have another young arm (coming off of TJ surgery) to protect.
Wally…WTF are you talking about? Cuddyer has a .950 OPS with runners in scoring position this year (in 75 AB’s), and for the three years before that he has an .821 OPS (in 439 AB’s).
Your perception doesn’t match reality. Not even close.
Craig Breslow came in because Dennys Reyes was sent back to the hotel with food poisoning.
Combine this with Kubel’s emergency (glad to hear everything’s okay) and you’ve got the makings for trouble. But that explains a lot.
And I have to agree on concerns regarding Guerrier’s usage. I think he’s got the second most appearances this season of any bullpen guy?
Isn’t that what happened to Nesehk last year? He was such a good reliever that Gardy was using him a lot and his arm just quit.
Gardy’s trying to avoid that here, and with Reyes out and three bullpen guys labeled as “Moppers” by the Vocal Majority, there’s really not too many options left.
The Twins fielding in the sixth also blew. It was like the players were throwing the ball with their eyes shut- just hoping they’d get lucky … and they didn’t.
Good to hear Kubel’s son is doing well.
Pipeline, don’t mind wally/herb/tom/dick/harry.
10 runs by the bullpen (including Johan) in game 5 2002 ALCS.
“and three bullpen guys labeled as “Moppers” by the Vocal Majority, there’s really not too many options left” - the results speak for themselves these guys should work in a fireworks factory 
All I can say is WOW. Pat Neshek is really missed
Good call LEN. The bullpen is badly flawed, and they’re overusing Guerrier and Crain. I believe Bass is out of options. Tough, get rid of him and try Korecky. The weak bullpen is going to cost them the division title. Look what mediocre bullpens have done to Cleveland and I can’t complain too much, though, I expected around .500 this year. Contending into August is gravy.
The Kubel baby and Dennys Reyes were sick before the game. Everyone else was sick after the game. But the Twins have done the same thing to First Place teams to open a series. Forget about it and take care of business today.
Last 10-run inning against the Twins I can remember was Game 5 of the 2002 ALDS when Santana got rocked by the Angels. A 5-3 lead went to a 13-5 deficit. This seemed just as painful.
Korecky hasn’t exactly been Mr. Consistent in Rochester lately, so I’m not sure he’s the answer, but clearly the team needs to find someone to help out that bullpen. You just can’t give games away after you’ve got them all but sewn up.
so much for yesterdays euphoria!
bringing in bass in a one run game has backfired before and gardy should know that. may be time to try humber, the guy will be out of options after this yr and they need to find out if he’s worth keeping. i’m not sure why bass is still here?
Good point on Korecky JC. I’ve been watching a few of the Rochester Squeeze Plays and I think Bobby boys blown a couple of saves in the last week. With Neshek out, Gardy’s in a tight spot with the pen.
But it’s funny. Following the Chicago and Tribe losses, this team’s most glaring need was a 3B bat.
Now today’s its bullpen help.
That’s why this team is going to have a hard time closing out the division, or going anywhere in the playoffs. They’re more than “one piece” away and with the youth movement in full effect they just don’t have the resources to trade for help in BOTH categories (unless they want to settle for a Rich Aurilla or LaTroy Hawkins type player)
The bullpen is badly flawed, and they’re overusing Guerrier and Crain.
They’re being overused because (as demonstrated by the Vocal Majority) Breslow, Bass, Bonser, and to a lesser extent Reyes can’t be trusted in tight ball games.
Which means if they play three straight one run games those three are likely burned out by the end of the week (provided the starter goes only 6-7.
Bass came in with the bases empty and one out. There’s no excuse for not being able to get at least ONE out in that situation.
He pulled a JC Romero and laid a friggin’ egg on the mound.
How ’bout a little blame for Gardy who kept Perkins in way too long and put Bass in at a high leverage situation (again)?
They’ve lost faith in Bass? I can’t imagine why they had faith in him to begin with.
I think the Bass decision was based on the fact that we had a 6-1 lead when they warmed him…. by the grand slam it was too late, he was the only one warm and he kind of had to try Bass. I’d have pulled Perkins at bases loaded if not sooner but Bass probably lets those runs score anyway. Too bad we have no relief help really in AAA.
I hope Gardy thought he had to keep Perky in because Reyes was sick and the pen was short handed. Maybe not, but Livan was released after a poor outing against a first place team. Bass had another poor outing, this time against the worst team in baseball. Time to try somebody new.
Pull Perkins earlier with this bullpen? It’s a no-win situation.
Why can’t Boof do short inning work?
Its hard for Breslow to come in and throw strikes when he is never used.
It’s not how the game was lost, that’s history. It’s how the team reacts to the loss that’s important now.
How is it that the Twins weren’t able to get Hawkins? Houston got him for essentially nothing. I know his value was hotly debated on the blogs but at least he would have been another arm and would not have been worse than Bass or Boof.
It might have been Game 5 of the 2002 ALCS when I had 3 HR’s. We scored 10 runs against the Twins in the 7th that day
Gardy is a terrible manager. Joe nathan should relieve the starting pitcher every game of the season. Can’t the bum pitch 2 to 4 innings every day? Why do the twins pay this pansy 16 million $ a year if the pansy can’t pitch 350 innings out of the bullpen?
What ever happened to the good old days when Shooty Babbit played the game the way it was meant to be played.
If they’re so worried that Crain and Guerrier are getting worn down, why did Gardy pitch them both on Sunday with the game easily in hand? For gods sake, why waste them in blowout games only to have them too tired to pitch well in close games?
The reality every team in the American League with the possible exception of the Angels have bullpen issues. In fact, check with Ozzie Guillen to see what his thoughts are on his bullpen’s efforts last weekend in Kansas City. It’s a long season and these things are bound to happen. It’s how the team reacts that will count. The past 3 or 4 times the bullpen and startes have blown-up the team has always reacted positively with a good effor the next night.
In response to everyone saying I’m over using Gurrier and Crain. Screw off. What the H’ else should I do? So what if Gurrier is on pace to make 140 appearances out of a possible 162. As far as Crain goes, the little cry baby, what is he saying? That his shoulder hurts? Get tough Crain. Grow some and go get warm because your going in next inning.
JayTEE, I’m thinking that the Yankees would not have given up Hawkins to the twins for as little as they got from Houston. Houston is in a different league, the Twins are competing with the Yanks for the wildcard. Just because they got him on the cheap doesn’t mean we would have.
I don’t think Nathan should pitch every day. I don’t think Nathan should pitch 2-3 innings every time. But, the manager who is brave enough to put his best pitcher in during the highest leverage situations, and change the way the game is managed forever, will be remembered for generations. Nathan should have come in with the bases loaded there, gotten them out of the inning with a good lead, and then they could have moved on with life.
However, I don’t expect the Twins and Gardy to be that team that is brave enough to fly in convention’s face. Your best relief pitcher should come in at the most crucial time, not just in the 9th to get a stat, er, save.
Bullpen isn’t as good as advertised. Twins need at least 1 other big stick. Playoff success is will be a surprise more than an expectation.
I remember a commentater(?) earlier this year- Morris maybe- saying something to the extent of: I’m glad that the bullpen is in the game. The games in the bad now. (They went on to blow the lead and maybe the game after he said that too).
The only way they win the WS is if they get HOT. Not just hot, burning hot. Scalding hot. Some number or thing I can’t even think of hot. Otherwise…it just doesn’t look good. This kind of game is inexcusible. It just is. You don’t have the worst team in the league down by 6 in the 7th inning and lose. You just don’t. Do I really have to explain that one? Seattle is bad. Actually they’re worse than bad. They’re so far beyond bad that they can’t even see the terrible line (which is the line after bad). You get them down by 4, and the game is Over. They don’t care anymore. They quit when they’re losing.
Reguardless of how bad the team is, however, you can’t allow 10 runs in one inning. Even for Seattle to allow 10 in an inning to the Twins would be horrible.
I’m tired. No more now. Bye.
**The Twins should have made a trade of kind**
Perfect example of how important the pitch count is. Was anyone else surprised when Perkins came out to pitch the 7th?? I couldn’t believe it, as it looked to me by his performance in the 6th that he was done. Then the telling stat came on the screen. Perkins pitch count was in the low 80’s. I will guarantee to you in the exact same game, if Perkins had thrown 95 pitches, no matter how good he was doing at the time, he would have been out of there. But, for some reason, since he only threw 80+ pitches, he was good to go. I’ll blame this loss on Gardenhire. I agree that you don’t want your pitchers throwing 120-130 pitches in a night, but just because they haven’t thrown 100 doesn’t mean their not done either.
Breslow was supposed to warm up with Bass in the 7th but did not.
As a result no LHP was ready in the bullpen and Perkins had to be left in to face Ibanez, even though Perkins was already cooked.
Result - grand slam plus Bass is the only pitcher available in the 7th.
Add Reyes and Kubels’ absences and the bullpen meltdown and it falls under the category of “SHIT HAPPENS!”
Gardy was the Captain of the Titanic and all the lifeboats had left.
If Crain and Reyes were unavailable and Perk had only thrown 75-80 pitches…. you had to try him another inning…. it just failed
“Gardy was the Captain of the Titanic and all the lifeboats had left.”
Funny, that’s how I feel following the Twins and Vikings every year!!
btw, someone was using my moniker last night.
If the comment is insightful, funny and you agree with it, that’s me!
If the comment is boring, stupid, and you disagree with it, that’s the imposter!
Its simple!
lol
as an east coast guy who is trying to stay awake, i think i have to take the night off… or at least have a nap…. Go Baker!!
Worn out bullpen with the starters going over 6 to 7 innings and we even had some 8 or 9 inning outings the past 3 weeks? This team is FULL of EXCUSES - are they afraid of success??
The Twins bullpen is putrid. These kind of games are going to happen, get used to it. It usually has very little to do with Gardy’s managerial skills. The front office is more to blame, for not shoring up this team’s most glaring weakness at the trade deadline. As unlikely as it is, let’s hope some good relievers make it through waivers, and are available shortly.
no just afraid that their bad bullpen is catching up to them..
On the bright side, I look for baker to give the twins a solid eight innings tonight. I don’t think the M’s care enough to go crazy with the bats 2 nights in a row.
“As unlikely as it is, let’s hope some good relievers make it through waivers, and are available shortly.”
You’re right… it’s very unlikely. “Good relievers” aren’t likely to make it through waivers. Every contender is either needing bullpen help or wanting to prevent their rivals from getting bullpen help.
Seriously… when people are up in arms over the Twins missing out on LaTroy Hawkins (has nobody been following this guy’s career the last 3 years?), you know it’s a tough market for “good relievers.”
“I don’t think the M’s care enough to go crazy with the bats 2 nights in a row.”
I don’t think it’s so much about not caring… I suspect that after all that hitting and running around the bases last night, they’re likely to be pretty tired tonight.
I was at the game last night, and boy, let me tell you, hard being the loud obnoxious Twins fan for 6 innings and then Ibanez doing that. Gahh.
But the big mistake here, and I do love Gardy 95% of the time, was leaving Perkins in to face Ibanez. Perkins had trouble getting out of the 6th and then the first 3 guys got on in the 7th. Gardenhire should have thought “if Ibanez comes to the plate in this inning, I’m bringing in Breslow.” He didn’t, and boom it went.
However, Gardy could have fixed his mistake with using Guerrier and Crain in the 7th/8th like he usually does, but Bass failed.
Also, Mauer looked really really lazy behind the dish last night. He looked tired and had a couple bad passed balls. Also, that throw from Span was RIGHT on the money and Mauer should have had that.
Mike … I agree that Nathan could be used a little more creatively, but then again I am glad that they don’t burn him out. I do think its funny how “by the book” Gardy is when it comes to using Nathan. Unless its against the White Sox, Yankees, or Red Sox, if Nathan is warming up to close a game and the Twins score to make it a 4 run game he is sat down. I guarantee you if the stat for saves was a pitcher coming in the game in the 9th with a 4 run lead he would always be in there or if the stat for saves was having a pitcher come in with a 2 run lead (and not a 3 run lead or less), then Nathan wouldn’t be put in if we were leading by 3.
Perkins has all the tools but needs to grow up and FOCUS. He drifts off every game and has the rough spots.
fire gardy for sending perk out in the 7th.
Lavelle, this is a poorly written blog post. What happened? You did not tell what happened or the end result??? I was frustrated reading this blog. Please tell us the end result. You start with Kubels kid and then get into the game. Should be the other way around. Yikes
PAINTING BY THE NUMBERS
Gardy manages by the book just like some people manage their lives by some so-called holy book. An original thought is beyong his aptitude and creative managing beyond his comprehension. To save himself from the hand of fate, he should insist that pitchers remove themselves when they lose confidence in their ability to pitch well. Bass and Boof should have the option to remove themselves from baseball, for the good of the team and for the good of the game. Boof has always been more concerned with his appearance than his game and Bass is now numb to failure. Effective player and game management goes far beyond painting by the numbers, although Gardy pretends that it does not.
Fully concur the front office shares in the blame for the weak bullpen. It’s been a glaring problem for months now, and yet Smith has done nothing…for months now. There has to be an easily obtainable option better than Brian Bass.
None of which excuses Gardy for last night–he managed that game poorly–but some effort by the front office to shore up the bullpen should’be been made, long ago.
I never understand all the excuses about a bullpen getting worn down. How difficult is it for a guy to throw one inning a day? If he tosses 15 pitches on average, how in the world does this wear someone out? The non-ptchers play 9 innings nearly every day, and despite the fact that starters only go every 5th day, I fail to understand how these guys can’t cut it. Seems like an easy job for several million dollars.
did anyone notice that on sat soria was brought in when the chi sox were coming back with one out in the 8th. got the royals out of the jam and got the save in the 9th. and he pitched sunday and got a save. i didn’t know a closer could pitch in the 8th. what’s going on anyway?
The Twins bullpen looks like this:
3 moppers (Bass, Bonser, Breslow)
1 situational lefty (Reyes) who doesn’t throw too many innings.
1 closer (Nathan) who rarely pitches outside of save situations.
2 other guys (Crain and Guerrier)
Given that, it makes sense that Gardy uses Bass more than we would like.
Remember when Soria was brought into a non save situation in one game of the KC sweep, went two innings…and then was unavailable to pitch the next day and thus KC lost?
Yeah. It goes both ways.
PS: Bonser pitched a pretty good 8th, unless your suggesting that Nathan should’ve been pitching in the 7th.
Now THAT would just be crazy.
Any chance we start converting Boof into a 1-2 inning relief role instead of mop up duty. He seems like he’s in the same boat as Guardado and Hawkins were early in their career - decent stuff (94-96 mph fastball and decent curve) but just couldn’t cut it as a starter. Both Guardado and Hawkins had era’s well above 5 as starters, were moved to the bullpen and were told to let it loose and found their niche.
“did anyone notice that on sat soria was brought in when the chi sox were coming back with one out in the 8th. got the royals out of the jam and got the save in the 9th. and he pitched sunday and got a save.”
If we want to succeed in the post-season, we need to follow the lead of the Kansas City Royals.
You would think the Royals would be more afraid that Soria might get burned out BEFORE THE PLAYOFFS!
Why not give Casey Daigle a shot? He can’t be any worse than Bass or Bonser! Is there any chance of us adding another reliever through the waiver wire?
Everyone was so excited about Liriano coming back that we let Billy Boy off the hook for failing to make a trade for a right handed bat. Did you see Lamb and Buscher’s swings against lefties? Putrid. Lamb struck out twice and looked like a litle leaguer and then hit a weak 20 hopper in the infield. Buscher struck out twice and grounded out against the lefties.
This one was all on Gardenhire. I don’t care that Lamb had a miracle hit early, when a lefty comes in with men in scoring position and a chance to put the game away, you pinch hit Redmond in to the DH spot. But gardy goes by the book because Lamb had such a great batting average lifetime against the Mariners????? He wasn’t facing these guys and he wasn’t facing lefties.
Gardy blew it. Smith deserves his share of blame too because we are going to continue to lose games because we have no right handed bat available.
P.S. I agree Cuddyer will come back, screw up the OF rotation and hit .215 with 3 HRs for the rest of the year.
t it’s to bad you can’t read! i didn’t suggest nathan should be brought in the 7th and didn’t suggest he should pitch 2 innings in a non save situation. i don’t understand why you need to take things out of context and twist them around? i was, however, pointing out some managers do use the closer in the 8th when the game is on the line, unlike gardy who doesn’t. fairly simple point of comparison of 2 different styles.
The Twins need to “waive” bye-bye to Bass. He looked horrible last night. It looked like he was aiming his pitches, which is always a disaster. Breslow did not look sharp, but they never use him, so how is he supposed to stay sharp. At least the guy doesn’t get rocked like Bass. They can’t depend on Crain and Guerrier all the time. Both have been inconsistent recently. Crain looks so scared on the mound, I’m surprised he hasn’t wet his pants out there. He has no confidence, which is a receipe for disaster. The Twins have a decent crew of pitchers in Rochester. Give one or more of them a shot at the bullpen. It can’t be any worse than what we experienced last night.
I hope the team considers last nights game a culmination of bad luck, timing, and bad games and doesn’t take it as hard or as seriously as we all do… otherwise, they are boned!
the Blog Monitor never lets facts get in the way of discipling us for our comments!!
I agree with Joker about getting the bullpen worn down. These guys are professional athletes. They should be able to go a MINIMUM of 1 inning per night. I don’t get it.
Truth is, that was the opposite of what we’ve come to expect from Twins baseball last night. They got a big lead and the entire team packed in in. They stopped hitting, didn’t field well and, obviously, the pitching let them down. When the whole team loses it’s edge, that has to fall on the manager. He’s get plenty of credit for their successes, he must take the blame when it’s due.
Colleen, please note the 4:19 am posting time and give the guy a break.
We needed som MR inning eaters. I cant believe no one would give us any MR help for Livan or Monroe. I am just very surprised. LaPanta LOL.
love gardy and think he is a great manager, but he just had a bad day at work yesterday. was disappointing that he was pointing fingers at everyone but himself after the game. he missed 2-3 chances to all but secure that game. could have landed the knockout blow (or at least continued the mariner bleeding with 1 or 2 more runs) early in the game with a bunt here and pinch hitter there. and, a clearly tiring perk should not have pitched past ichiro, if that far, regardless of the pitch count. even with a worn bullpen, in a pennant race you gotta find five outs with some margin for error from 2-3 arms and then on to a fresh nathan for the last three outs. just one game, though, and hope it will be a good lesson for the rest of the season as far as putting away games that should be won. go gardy, go twins!!!
You could see the Twins let up. I was sitting just behind the dugout and the normal hustle and focus coming off the field gave way to the “this one is wrapped up” attitude after the fifth. Bottom line is you cannot let anyone up once you have them down, even the worst team in baseball. When you get to a teams bullpen early you have to finish them off and it will pay dividends for the entire series.
Today is a new day and hopefully a better one.
Brian Bass is terrible … he needs to go. He has some good outings yes. but his bad outings are REALLY bad! There are not enough good outings to keep him around. Sorry Bass - Time the Twins put up the “Gone Fishing” sign on your locker room stall.
How can the bullpen get worn down?? They don’t pitch more than two innings every other night. Cmon; time for the boys to be men and suck it up; you are paid to work maybe5 innings a week, give me a break.
That was ERIC Perkins from Kare 11 pitching in the seventh for the next Perk at Play segment.
I have a hard time believing that the idiots on here suggesting that relief pitchers should be able to pitch an inning or more every single game are serious. Apparently coyotetom and TwinkiesFan think that because major league relief pitchers are paid well, their shoulders and elbows are invinsible.
The team played like they were hung over, especially mauer. I guess they partied too much on Sunday after getting into first place. They also went to sleep after getting the 6-0 lead - like all Minnesota teams, they do not know how to go for the jugular and put teams away. That said, this is a managerial loss and all on Gardy. A manager needs to put his team in the best position to win and Gardy did not do that. Perkins barely got out of the 6th without giving up the lead and never should have gone back out in the 7th regardless of his pitch count because he had nothing left. Reminded me of Gardy sending Nathan out for a third inning of work in the 12th inning against the Yankees in the 2nd game of the 2004 playoffs. A different pitcher - bass, breslow or bonser - should have started the 7ht inning. The result may or may not have been the same, but it was the right managerial move. At a minimum, Perkins should have pulled after he put his first runner on base. Hopefully they recover because they have 8 more games against a now inspired Mariners.
I wonder, do the posters i mentioned above have any idea how violently you have to move your arm to throw a baseball 90 mph or more? position players don’t have to do that every play of every game, that’s why they are able to play 9 innings every day.
“You’ve,
“I wonder, do the posters i mentioned above have any idea how violently you have to move your arm to throw a baseball 90 mph or more?”
Of course they do.
They all can throw a baseball 90 mph and THEY do it every night……….until the alarm clock wakes them up from their pathetic wannabee dream.
Every pitcher’s arm is different. Some guys can rebound the next day after throwing 20 pitches. Some guys can’t. Maybe Boof is one that can’t and that’s why he is stuck in long relief. Or maybe they don’t want him to make the adjustment because they want to keep him around for duty as a spot starter if necessary or in case a starter is injured. But I think he would be good in short relief. He can get a strikeout if needed and he could eat as much as he wants and bulk up again.
It’s one game, folks. Gardy got bad results, but not because of horrible judgment. With Reyes unavailable, and others overworked recently, he made a call to send Perk back out to gut out one last inning, despite his struggles in the 6th. It didn’t work out. A couple of the team’s current weaknesses became glaring, especially bullpen and defense. Of course this will allow the geniuses with the superior judgment to call for Gardy’s head and call BS some more sophomoric names. Knock yourselves out, kids.
“I sense that they have lost faith in Bass and are worried that Guerrier and Jesse Crain are getting worn down.”
Wait, the twins actually had faith in Brian Bass at some point? Having faith that Brian Bass is even an average pitcher is like having faith that the Soviet Union wasn’t corrupt.
I think the Twins know that Bass isn’t even an average pitcher. Unfortunately, there aren’t a lot of average or above average pitchers floating around.
bombat,
You going up to Wednesday’s game? I can’t seem to find anyone else to bail on work with me to go? Want to scalp some seats?
Frankly, I doubt the FO viewed Bass as average when spring training ended. They viewed him as the best option among the candidates, all things considered. Does anyone really believe that any one of LaTroy Hawkins, Daigle, Korecky, Humber, Barrett (your next name here)is going to shore up the bullpen enough to get us to the WS? Perhaps two “better than average” RP’s would. My guess is the FO believes every AAA option would also be “below average’, Like Bass is.
I take full blame. The Twins were up 6 -1 and I decided to go to bed. Imagine my surprise when I opened the San Antonio Express News…
“I doubt the FO viewed Bass as average when spring training ended. They viewed him as the best option among the candidates”
Three words.
R
A
Dickey
Amen Gera Rosy.
Free Ricky Barrett.
He might not be a world beater, but he’s been better than Korekcy at Rochester and SOMETHING must be done given that Brian Bass has no business playing major league baseball and very little playing AAA. Boof has VASTLY greater talent than Bass, and lumping he and Bass together is really unfair, bad (and unlucky — see his xFIP) as Boof’s been. Just see how many teams would be interested in Bass vs. Boof.
Re: last night. This one’s squarely on Gardenhire’s feeble-minded shoulders. It was evident Perkins didn’t have great stuff all night. He couldn’t strike anybody out and he was eminently hittable. Very Livan-esque, actually. He’d been lucky to get as far as he did in the shape he did. I won’t say for a second I wouldn’t have sent him out for the 7th, but I vocally disagreed when Anderson came out instead of Gardy with two on and was SCREAMING at the radio when he was left in to pitch to Ibanez. To then go to Brian Bass… well, there’s never a reason to go to Brian Bass.
Birdofprey: Yes, I do believe Ricky Barrett would help. And I believe Humber might’ve turned a corner so giant that a month from now it might be Perkins who’d be better off in the pen. Korecky is better than Bass, and I’d even give Mariano Gomez a crack before I let Bass work for me ever again.
There are no saviors at Rochester…but I think Korecky deserves another shot or maybe Tim Barrett. I know there has been inconsistency…but maybe Triple-A isn’t a positive indicator. For example, Alexi Casilla was only hitting .219 at Rochester before his callup…and he tore it up, over .300 average (still some bonehead plays), but better in the field than last year. I know that is a different position…but I believe Korecky and maybe even Barrett will be an upgrade over Bass, who’s just too hittable to be counted on in close games.
…oops, I meant Ricky Barrett. 
geoinsa,
“I take full blame.”
You are too late!
It has already been passed out and you weren’t mentioned.
I wouldn’t find fault with a FO decision to demote Bass, waiver risk and all, and replace him with any of the pitchers mentioned today. I just don’t believe that any of them, even Humber, solves the problem completely, and there’s a very good chance that the substitute performs poorly. Rincon imploded, Neshek shut down, Crain slightly shaky, Reyes being Reyes- it’s a two-pitcher problem at least, and that’s two GOOD pitchers. I see this as a problem that doesn’t get solved until next season.
“But if IF was a fifth we’d all be you-know-what. ”
Ha!
If Reyes didn’t have food poisoning……
Big boys have to wash their hands too.
What I could figure out, Perkins shaking off Mauer so many times?
Since when has he been that much smarter than Joe, that is where the problem was last night?
Sad to see that happen.
What I could NOT figure out.
Sorry
Here’s the funny thing. The Twins can win the next two, and still have won 13 of the last 15 series (the two exceptions I’d wager being Boston and New York…and the streak is likely prefaced by the Chicago one)
That’s pretty amazing right there, and explains why they’ve been able to pull back into it. After last night’s loss they can look back and see that they’ve still managed to bounce back and win series.
In the long run, series wins are more important that every single game. Because its series that they play in the postseason and series that they need to be built for.
Football needs to be more concered about winning every game.
No one on the Twins team likes Cuddyer much because he is kind of a sissy and always wants attention. The Twins organization would benefit greatly by trading him or sending him down to the minors. The problem in trading him is that none of the other teams in the major leagues want him because they know he has been over rated by the Twins organization and has an inflated salary that the Twins wish they would have never given him. The team will slide in the standings if he is given a chance to play regularly. He is a big hinderance to the team’s performance.
I was suggesting nathan come in during the 7th. The 7th, with two men on, is a much more crucial situation than the 9th, with no one on. Bringing him in there, and having him pitch even just through that inning would have been smarter than saving him for a situation that may never appear.
however, that is extreme out of the box thinking, which no manager has yet figured out (despite the overwhelming logic of not waiting for the 9th all the time to use your best reliever).
i was not, however, suggesting he pitch the 7th, 8th, and 9th inning.
Cuddyer seems to be kind of the clown of the team. He always is buddying up to the opposing players in order to become popular. If you watch him in the outfield, when he makes a catch, he will always watch himself on the big screen monitor. Cuddyer has the mentality of a child who always wants attention. He is not conducive to the betterment of the Twins organization or the team’s best style of baseball.
Bass was not the only option at the end of spring. He was out of options and the Twins decided to keep him. Humber had a lower ERA in the spring and could have been kept as a long innings reliever, but they had options with him and could keep him at AAA.
mike,
“I was suggesting nathan come in during the 7th. The 7th, with two men on, is a much more crucial situation than the 9th, with no one on.
IMO it is not possible to warm Nathan up fast enough, AFTER the first runner gets on, but BEFORE the third batter drives in the first two runners.
That gives him about one batter to get all his loosening up completed.
Not feasible for Nathan, although a few relievers only have to shake hands to get loose.
Nathan comes in at the start of an inning because he requires more loosening up time.
That is because he has four pitches to gain command of, unlike most closers.
That is the only excuse for him not being used in those situations. I don’t know how to get around that part.
But, I don’t agree with your specific contention. I’ve seen plenty of teams delay things with a visit to the mound, “mixed up signal” conversations, conversations about possibilities for playing the bunt, and then another mound visit.
But, I do agree that in general, it would be harder to figure out how to warm a pitcher up under my hypothesis (which may be one reason it isn’t done, but I don’t think that is THE reason at all).
No one should be surprised by last night’s collapse. Truly, Breslow could’ve remained in for another batter or two. Guerrier comes in and “f*cks up the cup of coffee”. He is something near a pastrami sandwich and heart attack to watch. Like Ron Davis in the early ’80s. Guerrier’s FIRST pitch has him getting shelled.
Bass I didn’t realize was STILL on the team.
Once it had become tied at 6-6, is when Gardenhire warms up the worthy relievers, Nathan included.
I was at the game last night enjoying the first 6 innings and then kabloom. My thoughts were that Gardenhire and company were trying to develop Perkins to get out of jams and pitch a little bit longer. They felt that the game was under control and they were getting Perkins to grow. They still had a lead after the grand slam but the pitchers were just getting hit; not hard but the hits made it to the right place. And then Morneau usually digs that out and keeps it a close game. The way that inning ended it was game over I hope that it does not carry forward. It is over new day. GO TWINS!! Back to safeco tonight for me and my Twins jersey.
For a detailed analysis, just posted today on ESPN, in support of my hypothesis, read this:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=caple/080805&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab1pos1
Just logged on haven’t read the previous posts yet, but here’s my opinion. I give this loss to Gardy not managing the game. I love Gardy, but he decided to take a nap when we got up
6-0. Instead of pinch hitting for Lamb and/or Buscher when the Mariners went to a left hander Gardy let two guys who are a combined 5-59 (or so) strike out and hit into a double play. And he let them bat again and they both struck out miserably. So instead of putting the last nail in the coffin the Twins gave the Mariners some life and the rest is history. Just disgusting. Yes, the Twins pitchers were horrible, but the Managing of this game was just as bad. I hope Gardy and the Twins will remember that when you get a chance you need to suck the life out of a team while they are down.
Oh Well,
Went to bed after the top of 7th.
Surprised to see the score this morning. Interesting to see how/if this lingers with the team.
Reading/scanning the comments, looks like this 1 loss has ended playoff hopes.
This years playoffs will sure look different using that criteria, as last night Red Sox LOST (now out of play-offs), Cubbies LOST (now out of the play-offs), Yankees LOST (now out of the play-offs), Tampa Bay LOST (now out of the play-offs), Milwaukee LOST (now out of the play-offs).
That Makes it Toronto in AL-East…won, AL-Central ? maybe a race between KC & Cleveland…both won, AL-West LA Angels…won after blowing a lead in the 9th…probably WS participant (who didn’t expect that).
As I said…Oh Well…There’s always next year.
Regards,
I wonder if an idiot like You’ve Got To Be Kidding Me knows that some pitchers go 9 innings in ONE game! How can that be!? There are plenty of starters that throw harder than a lot of relievers and they throw (hopefully) 6-7 innings per start. You would have to be an idiot to think that a professional athlete couldn’t go 1 inning (20 pitches) every other night. Some people need to man up.
coyotetom
Some relievers do go an inning every other night. I believe in your post you suggested going an inning EVERY night. That would destroy a pitchers arm in lesss than 3 weeks. Humans need to rest worked out muscles 48 hours before repeating stressful activities. That is why, when on a weight lifting program, you do not work the same muscles 2 days in a row, unless you have a substance that allows muscle tissue to heal faster than is naturally possible.
“Reading/scanning the comments, looks like this 1 loss has ended playoff hopes.”
Who cares about the comments, just read the FO’s body language — for the second year in a row — at the trade deadline.
THEY’RE the ones with little or no playoff hopes.
Gardy has asked for RH power, and relief in the pen. He ain’t got it yet.
Spot on Romer. Spot on.
Only it’s more like 5 years in a row.
coyotetom ,
“They should be able to go a MINIMUM of 1 inning per night. I don’t get it.”
“You would have to be an idiot to think that a professional athlete couldn’t go 1 inning (20 pitches) every other night.”
Every night or every other night?
Pick one, because there is a big difference.
Hey Jack, Wally, Willie or whatever name you’re making up at the time….
1. Stick with one name.
2. Offer REAL arguments instead of writing, “so and so seems to be the clown of the team…”
3. Use facts.
4. Try talking about someone who has been playing recently.
I have access to the e-mail addresses of the posters here, and I can see your pattern (or you and a buddy’s pattern) of behavior. It really adds nothing to the discussions.
I stand corrected. I did say every night and then every other night. I stand by my first statement; every night. We are talking 20 pitches - not 100. The weight lifting comparison is ridiculous. In weight lifting, you are maximizing the weight lifted per muscle group. Doing that, the muscles would need 48 hours rest. In throwing 20 pitches, your are not maximizing anything. An in shape athlete should be able to throw 20 pitches per night. If not, how can a professional BB player go 4-5 nights in a row. In your theory, they should have 48 hours to rest their legs before playing again. Very few of them are destroyed in 3 weeks.
coyotetom, have you ever a picture of a pitcher (ha) at the point of release? It sure looks to me like they are “maximizing” their muscle group.
coyotetom,
“I stand by my first statement; every night.”
A pitcher CAN pitch every night.
The hitters eventually tell him he SHOULDN’T pitch every night by beating the crap out of him.
Late in the 19th century, MLB teams used one (or 2-3) pitchers every game until they figured out that fewer pitchers-fewer games-fewer innings-higher intensity worked out better for the pitcher and his team.
But if you prefer, man-up, stick with the 19th century and finish last in your league. That will make a man out of you.
I found the part about how the Twins “lost faith” in Bass to be amusing. It begs the question: Why did they ever have faith in him in the first place?
Yes - I have seen a point of release picture and yes, the pitcher may be maximizing what it takes to throw a relatively light weight object. Again, a ridiculous comparison to weith lifting. Also, Jon, you are an idiot in your comparison. We are talking closers, not starters and we are talking not more than (hopefully) 4 batters per night. Back in the 19th century, you had way fewer teams so you played them more often. Today, a closer may face some teams only once or twice all year. That poses no real problem of over-exposure. You need to brain up!
coyotetom,
Overexposure was never mentioned.
I mentioned intensity.
Like throwing your very best stuff, every pitch for one inning every night.
If that was possible to do effectively, the Yankees would NEVER give Mariano Rivera a day off.
But after, 2-3 days, his effectiveness decreases and for the 3rd-4th day, a lesser pitcher is more effective than is Mariano Rivera.
Its NOT that he can’t do it, its that after a few days of it, someone else can do it better for one game.
And I will “brain up” if you will improve your Reading Comprehension.
Or is that too many syllables for you?
I stand by what I wrote. If Rivera is throwing only 20 pitches per night, I do not think his effectiveness would go down; certainly not substantially.
The one inning closer is over-rated.
the bright side of yesterday’s game: punto hit a homerun
THEY’RE the ones with little or no playoff hopes.
They’re only mirroring the fans. Wasn’t this team supposed to be a 90 loss team in the gutter of the division with a abused pitching staff and anemic offense?
There wasn’t a trade to made at the deadline. Get over it. This team is both a 3B AND bullpen arm (if not more than one) away from being a serious contender in the playoffs. The Twins don’t have the peices to make both trades. Which means that even with a better stick the bullpen will still be in trouble and even with the bullpen guy the lineup is still the same situation.
When you look at the Twins and you see THREE GUYS that can’t be trusted in a tight situation like the one they were in last night how can you think they’re going to be playoff ready even with ONE more bullpen arm?
I think last night showed the problem we have by not picking up a power hitting righty to play third.Buesher simply can’t cover enough ground to play third.He and Lamb don’t have a prayer against even a average lefty(walking Justin is one thing,but Delmon?)Cutty can play third as well as those two and is a righty.If not Cutty how about Joel Guzman? As sane correctly stated. he is a head case,but is that Gardy’s most important job,to make a clubhouse work?
That makes a lot of sense, T.
Since you thought the Twins wouldn’t be in contention this year, now that they are, the team shouldn’t attempt to correct ANY deficiency, since there’s more than one of them.
Just throw up their hands and say “hey, we weren’t supposed to be here, T said so.”
Brilliant.
Hey Chief, go back to the beginning of the season. I totally called it.
The Vocal Majority was picking this team to be a disaster, and I came in and said they’d put together a strong run and then just like that everybody would claim they were once again just an arm or bat away.
PS: Your ability to read beyond the first sentence is impressive. Reread this comment -
“The Twins don’t have the peices to make both trades. Which means that even with a better stick the bullpen will still be in trouble and even with the bullpen guy the lineup is still the same situation.”
Oh and this one:
“When you look at the Twins and you see THREE GUYS that can’t be trusted in a tight situation like the one they were in last night how can you think they’re going to be playoff ready even with ONE more bullpen arm?”
Do try to read the entire assignment before trying the homework next time.
y the expletive is bass coming in during a 1 run game? i cant believe he or bonser still have jobs. gardy should take the blame for that loss. y did gomez not attempt a steal in the 5th inning when it was 6-0? is gardy affraid to pour it on? lets not play nice there is no mercy rule in baseball. with 2 outs and a speedster like gomez……..always steal. one hit and a run comes in, there is nothing to lose.
So, as I take it, your point is that since there’s THREE guys who can’t be trusted in the pen, it’s useless to try to reduce that number to TWO guys who can’t be trusted.
Correct so far?
Additionally, since it was impossible to pick up a 3Bman, or a middle infielder, there’s no point picking up a reliever, and vice versa.
That about sums it up, no?
A couple minor points:
A) The trick is to get to the post season. What happens after that is pretty much anyone’s guess. And by the way, if they DO get to the post season, I doubt they go with a 12 man pitching staff, so those last couple unreliable relievers probably don’t even have an impact, since they’re not even on the playoff roster. So your point about being “playoff ready even with ONE more arm” is silly. One more arm MIGHT help GET to the playoffs. At which point the two left over aren’t important any more.
B) Not fixing one hole because you have two is like chosing not to fix your breathing problem because you have a headache too.
The whole relievers pitching daily arguement: Has anybody brought up the fact of “warming up” on a daily basis? Or do we not count those pitches because they weren’t in a game. Starters warm up for a game once every 5 days, and also throw once (I believe) in between starts. And the whole throwing motion has nothing to do with strength. There are numerous fat, out of shape, very good pitchers. It’s all about strain on an elbow and shoulder. The years ago arguement is crap. Years ago pitchers didn’t get Tommy John surgery. They injured their elbow, career over. Is it any wonder that with the millions ball players are getting that you shouldn’t just throw your reliever out there every night and hope he doesn’t get injured? Statements that go against the entire grain and ideas of every single major league team are worthless. Every major league team pitches starters every 5 days and closers one inning at most. But suddenly, because pitchers make millions of dollars, that should just change? Ridiculous.
“Perkins has all the tools but needs to grow up and FOCUS. He drifts off every game and has the rough spots.”
First getting upset at Casilla now balls are just “finding holes”. To quote the manager, Harris didn’t throw the ball over the right field fence for a granny.
Perk is looking to blame everyone but himself. Sounds like Kyle Lohse. What did the Twins do to Loshe again?
Livan has been claimed by the Rockies and the sides have 48 hours to work out a trade…
It was a horrible inning last night, let’s see if the Twins can win this series and not get embarrassed. I’m not holding my breath.
Dear Gentlepeople:
Good to say hi again tonight. The post on Perkins using excuses brought back memories of David West. He was the center of the Viola trade. Big fastball guy. Problem for him was his fastball usually over the middle of the plate, and usually never moved. But to hear David West describe his outing, you’d think he never made a bad pitch.
Perk is not quite that bad. He owned up to the granny shot. I didnt see the game, or listen to it, but only read the reports today. Aside from Perkins professionalism, which seems a little erratic generally, the cause for concern with him, Slowey, and Blackburn, is their arm strength as innings pitched mounts, and how well they will react to the pressure of playoff contention.
Their physical stamina is what it is. Without having pitched this much, everything from here on in is basically uncharted territory for these guys. Cross your fingers and hope they are able to maintain arm strength.
Much has been said about how young they are. I would agree they are inexperienced, but not necessarily young. At their ages, and with the # of years in pro ball, I would hope that they would be able to manage the psychological aspect of playoff potential baseball. But who knows how they will react? Remember Gaetti’s infamous quip in ‘84, after he made a terrible throwing error and the Twins blew a 10 run lead to Cleveland late in Sep and basically lost the division in doing so: “Hard to make a play when your hands are around your throat.” Honesty…humility….Gary grew through it, and 3 years later makes the final throw to clinch the ‘87 series. I wonder if the pressure these guys feel is so different on the road that they tighten up, and so, fail to make plays in key situations? If so, they have some growing to do, and I guess we get to find out who is able to mature in the process, and who isn’t. Still, what’s so amazing is that nobody, including me, gave them a snowball’s chance at the beginning of the season. They’re a good team. Getting beyond last night’s blown game will show how well they can handle the pressure and adversity that is building up.
Anyone who thinks a reliever should be able to go one inning a night is an idiot and has never played baseball. Just because an outfielder can play 162 games a year doesn’t mean a pitcher can do it. Pitching puts an unbelievable stress on your arm. Why do you think so many pitchers incur arm problems? Because it’s an unnatural motion. That’s why softball pitchers can go nearly every game (because that’s the natural arm motion, see.) Throwing 20 pitches is enough to make your arm sore the next day. Obviously, it is less strenuous than throwing 120 pitches, but still enough to make you lose your edge a little the next day.
I’m assuming that Gardy is going to give up on this game and put Bass in, right?
