Will The Twins Bring It On This Road Trip?
Posted on September 12th, 2008 – 2:22 AMBy La Velle
The Twins held their annual rookie hazing after Thursday’s loss to the Royals.
In a switch from previous years, when the rookies were forced to wear an array of hideous and embarrassing costumes, the Twins went with a theme this year. Daisy Dukes, shirts unbuttoned and tied at the belly, and wigs. The rooks were ordered to walk out to the parking lot and sign autographs for any fan in sight.
They got off easy. In past years, the costumes were much more embarrassing - and more revealing in some cases.
Not everyone thought the timing was right for the annual prank, since they were coming off of a loss to the Royals. But if it puts them in a good mood for the 10-game road trip, good for them.
My suggestion would have been for Corey Koskie, Doug Mientkiewicz and Torii Hunter to appear and talk to them about the great chance they have to reach the playoffs. Haze the rookies into taking their game to even another level.
It’s great that they are in this position. I’m one of the people who predicted that they would win only 73 games this season, so I have to eat some crow at the end of the season. But this team lacks one key trait from past Twins teams - they don’t grind out wins.
Patrick Reusse wrote the other day about how the offense is more productive than in recent years. And I have said on KFAN that this is one year I don’t go the park wondering how the runs will be scored.
I also remember when the Twins won division titles from 2002-04, and the complaint from opponents was, “we look at this lineup, and don’t know how it scores runs.”
Those Twins teams would hook and crook and chop and gork and flare and bloop their way to hits and runs. Those teams would forget how poorly the starters did, or that Tony Fiore was on the mound, or how Joe Roa did, or that Matt Kinney was on the mound.
They had KieltyMohr or MohrKielty in right field. The lineup wasn’t imposing, but it got things done. There was a hit or a pitch made in a key situation to make everything right. And those teams played with emotion. There’s no way they would score just two runs off of Brandon Duckworth - like the current squad did on Thursday.
Mike Redmond said after the game that the Twins need to bottle up the energy they have at home and bring it on the road. They need a keg of emotion on this trip.
They’ve got to attack, and keep attacking. We know Joe Mauer and Justin Morneau will hit. It’s up to the players around them to get on base in front of them or make opponents pay for pitching around them. And just put the ball in play when it’s time to move someone over or get someone home. And let the relay team loose on the basepaths.
And even if someone screws up - like Carlos Gomez did Thursday when he was picked off first - pick someone up.
The starters have exceeded expectations, but the best way to bypass the struggling bullpen is to pitch seven or eight innings. And maybe, just maybe, the bullpen has used up all of its bad pitches this season.
The division title is sitting there for them. It’s time for the Twins to throw their best games on the field.
A couple more things: Those 2002-04 teams fed off their great defense. And the 2002 team was motivated after blowing the division the year before. This year’s team is not as gifted defensively and a lot of these players are in the hunt for the first time.
107 Responses to "Will The Twins Bring It On This Road Trip?"
[…] Originally published by Twins Insider […]
In his column JSouhan dissed both Guerrier and Reyes. It is fair to say that Guerrier has tossed a LOT of pitches since he normally is brought in to pitch at least one entire inning if not more. To include Reyes in that same group of overused relievers is absurd.
Yes Reyes technically has been in nearly the same number of games as Guerrier but how many of those appearances have been to face one lefty batter? I can remember several appearances where he pitched literally one pitch. Then there was the appearance where he threw just four soft tosses, to IBB the batter. Now he does exercise his arm in warming up to get in his short appearances, but please, let’s not say he is overused.
Not surprisingly Reyes had his best year with the Twins in his first, probationary year. Then he got his two year contract extension and he hasn’t been the same since and has IMO been declining ever since. Now he is up for another contract extension. He has not been lights out this year nor last. His WP have cost at least one game that I can remember. I hope the Twins FO make a realistic assessment of Reyes and not just automatically extend his contract when they already have a good situational lefty in Breslow who has on occasion gotten out some real good RH batters as well.
Another thing that worries me is that virtually nothing has been said lately about Neshek’s rehab without surgery. Again I hope the FO has some alternative strategy in mind. What if Neshek turns into a Shawn Merriman? Or a final year Brad Radke? I don’t see how the Twins can bank on Neshek being healthy for all of ‘09.
I know all of baseball is chasing the same thing: good bullpen arms, but here’s hoping the Twins are in that chase in earnest in the offseason. As much as a power RH batter would be real nice, the more immediate concern is the pen.
the Twins went with a theme this year. Daisy Dukes, shirts unbuttoned and tied at the belly, and wigs.
So apparently there is actually a few people in this state who miss Twins Hottest Chick. 
On a serious note, this is it for the Twins. The O’s and the Indians can be beaten if they don’t play with their heads up their butts (see both Jays series and the previous O’s series)
Twins have a habit of looking past games sometimes. Hopefully they don’t think they can waltz into the park and win just because they showed up.
I just hope TB figures out where they are in the playoffs before the weekend so there’s not as much desire in their eyes as there may be right now.
Stay within 1 game plus or minus of the Sox and they’ll have a chance to get the job done themselves in that first series at home.
That’s the key.
La velle, do you think the overall youth and inexperience on the team is the cause of not enough “grind it out” wins? this team might be like the 1984 squad that falterd down the stretch and lost the division lead.
they of course went on to win the division and WS in 1987 but they needed some years of growing
the current squad obviously has alot more veterans that have made the playoffs just wondering if youth is catching up to them now?
the current squad obviously has alot more veterans that have made the playoffs
Looking at the current roster, the bullpen has seen it’s share of playoffs…but the position players is another story.
Mauer
Redmond
Morneau
Punto
Everett
Kubel
…That’s about it I can think of. For the rotation, I don’t think any of these guys have been starters down the stretch (or in the postseason).
Especially not after being starters for a full season.
I think that factors into it somewhat for sure. You’ve got a young club that did something they didn’t expect to do. Now they’re pushing themselves to come out on top, and that may be leading to some struggles.
TB is in the same boat, but the difference there is they’ve been in the hunt since Day 1 this season, vs. the Twins who had to sort of “rebuild” midseason when they started dumping guys like Monroe, Livan, and Lamb.
The Twins failed to go after Latroy Hawkins when the Yankees let him go. He has given up one run in 35 innings with Houston since they got him. The Twins got Eddie, what has he done? Looks like they got the wrong exTwin.
imo this team lacks a real leader. to many young players with little major league exp let alone playoffs. maybe mauer and morneau lead by example and maybe more so behind the scenes but that doesn’t seem to be the case. the team just doesn’t seem we have that guy with fire in his belly that will kick whoever needs kicking in the butt.
again that’s just the feeling i get from watching all yr.
Great insights LaVelle. Beyond the obvious bullpen and defensive liabilities, this team’s main problem is intangible. Whether it’s emotion, or players who consistently make crucial plays at crucial times, they have exhibited the ability to come up “just short” in too many situations throughout this season. It’s not necessarily a lack of talent. They have plenty of talent. Nor is it “youth”. TB is proving you can win with a very young roster, and so have others in the past. Championship caliber teams always seem to have a few guys who can make the plays that need to be made, when they need to make them, for optimal effect. And inversely, to have a team full of guys who do not make the game-changing mistakes when those can be least afforded. The Twins lack balance in all of this, and I don’t think it’s just because of youthful inexperience.
That said, they are still only 1 game out. THe CWS clearly have many issues of their own, and they show no inclination to expand their lead significantly. So it might be that the 3 game series at the Dome will decide things. If so, the Twins will have their chance to prove me wrong on all counts. But I remain skeptical of this squad’s ability to rise above the pressure of the chase and win the games they will need.
And please don’t fire off diatribes about not supporting the home squad. I live and die with the Twins, for over 30 years now. Realistically, this team just doesnt measure up to other championship-level teams this franchise has put together.
How about the rookies make the veteran relievers wear tutu’s until they make an out.
[…] Jim Souhan’s column about the game pretty much nailed things — and La Velle has a great blog post, […]
As good as Hawkins’ stats are, I’m pretty sure the Yankees wouldn’t have traded an RP to the team they were battling for a Wild Card spot at the time.
i would like the twins to pinch hit for jason kubel when there are guys on 1st and 2nd witn no outs in the late innings. Thats what guys like Everett and Harris are still on the team for! Get the go ahead run to third and knock him in. Playing for the big inning like gardy loves to do is too risky in the middle of a playoff race!
Any hello kitty bags to report?
“As good as Hawkins’ stats are, I’m pretty sure the Yankees wouldn’t have traded an RP to the team they were battling for a Wild Card spot at the time.”
CORRECT! that fact has already been reported from the Yankees that they would not trade Hawkins to the Twins - it doesn’t make sense to keep beating up the F.O. for not getting a pitcher they had no chance to get!
Garnett was not a true leader for the Wolves and Morneau and Mauer are not true leaders for the Twins. They need a veteran like Jason Varitek or Troy Percival that will just kick the team right in the pants when they don’t care!!!
Mark,
Hawkins wasn’t let go by the Yankees, he was traded to Houston and word is they refused to trade him to MN.
With all the wasted FA money the Twins spent during the off-season, I hope they go out and get an impact position player and maybe a reliever or two. I wouldn’t mind seeing them trade two or three pitching prospects to get some offensive help as well. (aka a bopper).
Orlando Cabrera is a FA at the end of the year. He would be ideal to play SS for a couple of years and hit in the
2-hole. We still need to find a power hitting third baseman.
Who are these clowns that keep saying we need to fire Gardy? Give me one other manager who could accomplish what he has with the rookie squad and payroll he has to contend with. Be lucky we’re even in a position to be discussing postseason play in September. Most people wrote us off back in April. Maybe you naysayers should move to Cleveland or Detroit and cheer for those powerhouse teams.
The only reason the Twins are getting a sniff at the Division is that the Whites are equally as dismal, except when playing the Twins this year. Looks like we’ll be going down to the last day again.
buntmore I agree with you. Gardy has been complaining after the road trip that the players weren’t moving the runners over enough. So Tuesday in the 1st inning Span doubles and Gardy plays for one run by having Casilla bunt. Yesterday in a tight game in the 6th he had the opportunity to play for one run to take a lead and he doesn’t have either Kubel or a PH to move them up with a bunt. Makes no sense. David Ortiz even had a sacrafice bunt Wed in Boston.
One thing La velle leaves out, is that the division was so bad in the 3 year run (from 2002-04), that a average to below average Twins team, could win the division.
Those teams had fielding and a bullpen, that’s why they hung in there. They couldn’t hit or score, and starting pitching was mostly 2 deep.
This years team is better. This years team cannot field a lick and the bullpen is bad, but the starting pitching and situational hitting is way way better. To compare those teams to this team in hitting is ridiculous.
This year’s division isn’t much better, but it is.
buntmore:
Tardy rarely plays for the big inning. He wishes he could, but rarely. this is the same coach who often times bunts players over in the early innings (giving up outs early in a game drives me nuts).
He could’ve bunted for Kubel, but isn’t Kubel supposed to be one of our clutch hitters? I am not saying he is, but he bats 5th. If you are bunting for your #5 guy in the lineup agaist KC, well, your team is in trouble.
I wouldn’t have bunted in that situation in the 6th inning yesterday to get to Redmond and Buscher (who Harris pinch hit for leading off the 7th).
rghrbek: Very good point about the weak division opponents.
I actually think Lavelle is right on point here, and do think this team lacks the motivation/intensity of the teams from ‘02 to ‘04, but to say “There’s no way they would score just two runs off of Brandon Duckworth” seems a bit of a stretch.
On September 5, 2004, the Twins lost, and were held to 3 runs on 6 hits in a complete game performance by Jimmy Gobble (Gobble finished the year with an ERA of 5.35). The very next day, then rookie, Daniel Cabrera, (finished the 2004 season with a 5.00 ERA) three hit the Twins over 7 1/3 innings allowing just 1 run. Every team, every year has bad losses.
fargo makes the most valid point on this blog. Why does skip not listen to his own words and either pinch w/bunt, or have kubel bunt ?? more than anything, our kids hear our skip talk about playing the right(twins) way. and then not follow through on his own beliefs hmmmmm.
lpbostok,fargo,
If you believe Bill James, sacifice bunting is the playing baseball the WRONG WAY.
And to say the “right way” and the “Twins way” are identical sounds good, but is entirely subjective.
Regarding lack of team leadership, Mauer is from MN and Morneau, Canada. They are just too darned nice to do any butt-kicking.
And to say the “right way” and the “Twins way” are identical sounds good, but is entirely subjective.
The “right way” is whatever way leads to a victory. Unfortunately nobody (including Bill James) has been able to pin down just what exactly the “right way” is.
The Cubs came up with about 71% of the neccesary information in 1906…that’s the closest we’ve seen so far.
I,for one, worry about where the runs will come from. This team has shown an alarmingly inconsistent offense over the last half of the year. One game they’ll plate 7 or more runs…the next game, or two, they’re lucky to score 2-3 runs. Guys who have no business swinging from their heels, LNP, are doing so. It just seems that after they have a great day on offense the Twins go right back to their undisciplined hacking mode. When they should be adjusting to good pitching and shortening their swing down they take even bigger hacks at the ball. Very frustrating. Gardy will comment after a frustrating loss about the lack of professional at bats, maybe he should say something to the cast of usual suspects during the game.
DG
Let me preface this by saying Morneau is my favorite player. He’s a beast. But, I have to disagree with the sentiment here: “They’ve got to attack, and keep attacking. We know Joe Mauer and Justin Morneau will hit… And even if someone screws up - like Carlos Gomez did Thursday when he was picked off first - pick someone up.”
Gomez got picked off. Morneau failed to move Mauer over from second with no outs and the game tied in the 8th inning. Morneau is an MVP candidate. Gomez is a 22 year old kid whose rawness has been discussed ad nauseam on these blogs. This has been a team effort to give these games away and not take over the division. We can say that the young kids have to step up and learn to pick up teammates, but it starts from the top. Morneau and Mauer have to not just hit, they have to hit in key situations. They have to lead by example. No more striking out with nobody out and runners on base in the bottom of the ninth on three straight pitches. No more failing to move a runner over to third in a tied game in the 8th inning. The bullpen is tired but they’d have an easier job if our guys could execute and give them bigger leads. Yesterday, Guerrier wouldn’t have had an oppurtunity to pitch poorly (again) if we would have done what’s expected and gotten Mauer home in the 8th. At this point, the Twins definitely don’t deserve their reputation for executing well and playing the game “the right way” and that’s why we’re struggling. The young guys are all playing tight and pressing, but that’s when the leaders, presumably Mauer and Morneau, have to take it on their shoulders. That hasn’t been happening.
the exact right to win is to 1. pitch well enough and play good enough defense to allow them less runs than you score, or 2. score more runs than they do.
simple now just do it!
T,
There is a good chance that the “1906 Cubs way” is no longer the “right way”.
But Blyleven would applaud one pitcher pitching nine innings every day, but he’d still bitch that the pitching was better in 1899.
Young team that lacks a true clubhouse leader. When you talk about the teams from 02 to 04 your talking about Torii Hunter. Torii got people fired up when they needed it. If somebody was struggling at the plate, Hunter would let him know and put a charge into that player. When you look at the 08 team , our leaders mainly Mauer and Morneau are nice guys, excellent ball players. But when it comes to challenging teammates , putting on the rally caps , getting guys fired up in these one run games. I just dont see it. The Twins do not have a guy on the team that will rattle the cages of his teammates to get that passion flowing. Everybody who is not his teammate thinks that AJ is a cancer…….but hes that type of guy that will get up in your face and tell you that you suck and get that fire burning.
The missing “X Factor” on this team is leadership. M&M lead on the field and that is good but not enough. Gardy is NOT a strong leader. I have heard Red Dog is as close as there is to a leader. If a leader has not emergd out of this group by now, one probably won’t. When looking for help for next year, leadership qualities should be in the mix - not just athleticism.
comparison of this year to 202-4 is bogus becasue the ONLY reason we won in those years was because the rest of the division was terrible. I was then, and still am, dissapointed that thaey never made any significant moves in August to shore up those teams for the playoffs. They won 94 games but it was against historically bad detriot teams and a very bad division.
This a MUCH better team than any of those divison winners in 2002-2004.
Sidreal has got the best point in this blog and a perfect answer to all those who think the sky is falling when the team scores 2-3 runs. It’s how baseball works. Have you EVER seen a team consistantly score 7 runs per game? Have you EVER seen a team score heaps of runs against EVERY pitcher who isn’t in the running for a Cy Young award? Of course you haven’t. You’re asking for an impossible amount of consistancy from a team playing a game with rules that eliminate the possiblity of consistancy.
Zheesh, If this were a Harlem Globetrotter comment board you’d still be harping on their defeat to the Generals back in 1979.
pete,
Dead-on!
Sometimes our line drives are caught.
Sometimes our parachutes land.
How the hell can ANY offense be consistent?
The only thing consistent is the bitching.
Its been a nice run this year, but it is OVER. The way this bullpen is pitching and the fact the twins are going on a 10 game road trip spells doom for this club. By the time the Twins face the white sox at the dome, they will be at least 4 games back. The white sox series is going to be more like a funereal than a playoff series. Its such a shame Bill Smith did nothing after Neshek got hurt.
gp,
“By the time the Twins face the white sox at the dome, they will be at least 4 games back.”
For that to be true, the White Sox would have to win at least four games. Good luck with that!
Make that THREE games.
Still out of reach for the White Sox.
Sane, I hope your right.
let’s say we had traded blackburn and a prospect for beltre end of july.
last 28 days beltre had 6 hr. 15 rbi, .360 ave and .402 obp putting that behind morneau and moving kubel and young down a notch would have won us how many more games? veteran, by all accounts great in the club house maybe would have made a big impact. never know, however.
humber, mulvey or boof take blackburns place? how different would our record be?
sane,
I know you mean 3 games more than the Twins.
sac bunts are free outs. Statistical analysis is VERY clear on this, they are not a good idea (they may be in the very late innings when you are the home team, but that is not clear).
Pinch hit for Kubel? Maybe against a lefty, but he’s their third best hitter! Are some of you saying they should PH for him, even against righties?
mike ww,
Kubel twice and Buscher once, were left to hit late in the game against lefties yesterday with runners in scoring position and no outs (Kubel) or 2 outs (Buscher). With Young, Ruiz and Harris on the bench, that was not a good move
La Velle,
I think your description of the offense for the 2002-04 Twins is a lot more appropos for this year’s team, which is on pace to hit 112 HRs. The Twins averaged about 170 HRs per year from 2002-04. And it’s pretty easy to “grind out” wins with a lights-out bullpen. And as far as only getting two runs off Duckworth, the “great” 2002 team was shut out for seven innings by Duckworth. Nice grinding.
This team is pretty much the opposite of every other Twins team under Gardy. The biggest weakness is the bullpen, followed closely by the defense (which was just as big a culprit in the loss to KC). If the bullpen was just average in holding onto leads the last month, we’d be talking about playoff matchups right now. The offense and youthful starting pitching are the team’s biggest strengths.
Joker says:
September 12th, 2008 at 10:05 am
Who are these clowns that keep saying we need to fire Gardy? Give me one other manager who could accomplish what he has with the rookie squad and payroll he has to contend with.”
Joe Madden perhaps. And his team plays with fire, with intensity. See the Rays beat the Bosox on Tuesday and Wednesday. Character that is simply not there for the Twins.
How many years has Tampa Bay been in contention? Twins under Gardy have been in contention just about every season under Gardy.
sweetone,
“sane,I know you mean 3 games more than the Twins.”
Thanks.
I am no longer clear on what I mean.
Other factors can be involved in team energy like a player who is a leader. Who is that on this team?
Contention for what - a division. How about contention for a world series. Other than 2002, Gardy’s teams have wilted under the bright lights of the playoffs.
Here’s a point not yet discussed (at least today on this blog):
May not be enough to get them into postseason or enough to do more than one and out if they make it to postseason, but you have to wonder how much insecurity rather than alleged lack of leadership etc. has played into being one game back rather than several games ahead?
What I mean is this, how many of these young players have made mistakes that have cost games because they have been looking over their shoulders?
1. As much as everyone is gushing over Span now, he was not lighting any fires in spring training nor early in the season. Only after it was clear that Cuddyer was out for an extended period and the job was his did he take off offensively and defensively.
2. Buscher has been better especially defensively since Lamb was sent packing.
3. Casilla had blossomed once he got the job again and with more injuries became the everyday guy. Of course there is that monumental mental lapse in Yankee Stadium but….
4. Kubel while still not performing to the level many of us scream for in these blogs has been better as the everyday DH.
I coveted getting Beltre as much as any other Twins fan but I’m actually refocusing on bullpen upgrades as maybe should be BS’ #1 priority in the offseason. Close behind would be a power RH bat, not necessariy a 3B but maybe DH. Either that or send Ruiz to winter ball and let him hit, hit, hit. I know he’s 30 but the guy showed way more patience at the plate than I expected and he was way faster running the bases than that body would ever suggest. Could he be a RH DH given more looks at MLB and especially AL pitching?
BUT, there is always more $$$ for BS. How likely is that to happen?? Sheesh, the Twins will have one of the best and one of the lowest cost rotations next year. Add to that the salaries of most everybody not named Mauer, Morneau, Nathan or Cuddyer, there’s gotta be money to buy arms or bats!!!
How many times has Tampa Bay been in the playoffs under Joe Madden? Guess he should be fired then as well.
sweetone,
“sane, I know you mean 3 games more than the Twins.
Actually I just meant three games.
I was hypothesizing (See, Miss Nelson, I used it in a sentence) that if the Twins did not win a game on the road trip, that the WSox would have to win three games in the meantime in order to be four ahead of the Twins going into their series.
If you want to settle for “aw, shucks we are just happy to be here,” all the power to you. The Rays are a real contender to win it all this year. I would take that over the frustration of watching the Twins meekly bow out in the first round year after year.
Nora,
So long as he DOES indeed develop into a better hitter and better base runner (at least before the Go-Go haters totally pull their hair out to the point of baldness!! 
) a leader for the future would be Gomez. You know he already has the attitude and cockiness RIGHT NOW, just not the experience nor performance to deserve a leadership post at this time. But if he should ever become even remotely close to that 5-tool guy he’s supposed to be, watch out teammates in the dugout! He will have had a lot or practice by then yelling at his bat and by then his English will be much better also!
Hey if you can find a manager gaurunteed to win it all, great! And the Twins never had a chance to win it all. Now all of a sudden Madden is the best manager. Give me a break there are alot of factor involved besides the manager in winning a world series.
So based on one year Tampa Bay and their manager is better the Gardy in every season he got to the playoffs? Tampa Bay has not even played a playoff game.
Nora,
The blog pseudo-GM’s notwithstanding,
neither Gardy nor Maddon are in any danger of being fired.
Maddon is the beneficiary of many terrible TB teams leading to many #1 draft picks. But he changed the Ray’s loser mentality, so must be commended.
Gardy is the victim of many good Twins teams leading to only one #1 draft pick.
So he must be commended, although he has benefitted from a winning mentality because of the Twins consistent winning since 2002.
Sane, I agree.
The Twins are not alone in not having any easily identifiable leader(s). If you don’t include leadership by performance which the Twins certainly have in Justin and Joe, how many other teams have a leader that’s more than that? I hate to give RSNation any credit but of the current serious playoff contenders, I can only think of:
- Petroia/Youkilis
- Maddon and Sciosa from the dugout
- Zambrano and maybe Piniella
- CC.
Maybe Ozzie in his own convoluted and foulmouthed way.
Sane, well said about the bounty from the draft received by TB. It will be interesting moving forward next season and beyond how the Rays will fare, once they stop getting the top picks year after year and once the rest of MLB will be on guard and playing them seriously (can’t sneak up on anybody taking them lightly any more).
I am here because I am a Twins’ fan, unfortunately a frustrated Twins fan. I think the team could be better and would be better if it has some more fire, some passion and yes a leader. Gardy does not provide that leadership or passion.
As for leading by performance, morneau is inconsistent. Bottom of the 8th yesterday for example. And if you say I expect too much from morneau, you are right I do. An MVP gets Mauer in from 2nd, Liriano gets his win and the Twins are tied for first.
Even an MVP doesn’t get it done every game as much as everyone would like him to. Morneau has been just as consistent as an MVP candidate as anyone else. He also has the most RBIs as well.
Here is a stat I found the other day on the Pioneer Press about Morneau:
‘Morneau has had 489 runners on base this season and has driven 19.6 percent of them in, second only to Hamilton’s 21.6 in that group of five. Pedroia has driven in 14.9 percent of his men on base, Youkilis 18.4 and Quentin 19.1 (stats through Tuesday).’
Jack as much as we’d all luv to have Morneau drive in everyone 100% this is still baseball where failure approx. 67% of the time makes you a superstar.
If the Twins make it to the postseason he deserves an MVP even more than in ‘06 because he has done very well with RISP all season (a big determinant in the minds of the BBWAA voters in ‘06), not just the half season as in ‘06. All the Pedroia talk lately just makes me want to barf. Yes I give him his due, he is one gritty hardnosed player, pound for pound one of the best out there. But where would RSN be without Drew in the first half? And let’s not forget Manny. Pedroia was not even the MVP of RSN until very recently.
I agree Beisbol, Pedroia had a hot streak for a week maybe 2 that got him in the playoff race and because he is a Red Sox player many think he should win it.
Sorry, the MVP race.
“Gardy does not provide that leadership or passion.”
Compared to:
Joe Torre?
Mike Sciosia?
Francona?
Maddon?
Wedge?
Puhleeze!
You must be thinking of football coaches, because Gardy is more passionate than any of that list.
IMO Mike Sciosia is the very best around and he is completely without expression or pulse. He is just great at running the Angels without wetting himself.
You guys would have fired Bud Grant after his first game.
Nora says:
September 12th, 2008 at 1:30 pm
So based on one year Tampa Bay and their manager is better the Gardy in every season he got to the playoffs? Tampa Bay has not even played a playoff game.
Have the Twins played in a playoff game in the last three years either? Men against boys and simply a 165 game season. You can hardly say the Twins have played in the playoffs either. I know Michael Ryan and Mathew LeCroy would agree!
This team should be 8 games up in the division with a skipper who plays the correct line-up and doesn’t cough up games because of pitch count, no PH in key situations, and playing a utility player every day because he plays hard every day.
I will let you know how my 13 year old team does this weekend in fall-ball when we play at at double-play depth, up by one, with runners on 1st and 3rd with one out in the last inning.
“We have LNP yes we do, we have LNP, how bout you?
now everyone notice I have not contributed 1 word to this attack on Gardy so everyone can get off my back for my moniker!!!
It is September in a pennant race. Step up and get it done, or go home.
As for the MVP award, morneau has to do more than pedroia or any other east coast player to get noticed by the national media. According to Ozzie, if Morneau played in NYC he would be the king of the MLB. That is the unfortunate reality.
Finally, I agree that he has done more this year than ‘06 because he has not had cuddyer and hunter surrounding him. He is seeing fewer pitches.
Tampa Bay until this year has never been even good enough to think about the playoffs. That is all I am saying.
Sane, once again good point.
sane, do not mistake Gardy’s silly umpire arguments for passion.
Jack, I don’t think he is.
sane,
so we were both right. I missed the assumption that the Twins would go 0-10 on the road trip.
It is still valid that the Sox would have to win 3 more games than the Twins (in your case that is 3 games).
Once again, the other successful managers that were mentioned aren’t exactly filled with passion either.
Let’s not equate the occasional hat kicking and redfaced fingerpointing at the latest offending ump as leadership and passion. Sciosa does a lot of leading face to face with his players, not the clownish histrionics that make good theatre but not good leadership, although he just as quickly leaps out to argue calls also but that’s not where his leadership comes from.
Does any of us really know what goes on in the clubhouse and behind the scenes?
Jack, don’t lose hope yet for an MVP for Justin although if they don’t make the playoffs forget it. That seems to be one of the criteria and I can’t say I’d argue against it. One of the reasons Hamilton has fallen out of that discussion.
If ‘06 is an example and if the membership of the BBWAA hasn’t substantially changed since then, I say thank goodness those people actually analyzed the numbers before they voted. Thank God commentators like Sutcliffe and whoever that other guy was on the Rays-Sox broadcast don’t have a vote. All they do is pander to fans of the big market teams.
It continues to irritate me everytime I see another blogger or commenter yak about how Justin “stole” the MVP from Jeter. Apparently the bb writers didn’t think so and they follow bb much more than the average fan or broadcast talking head.
What do you know about Sciosia’s or Gardy’s face-to-face dealings with their players?
Are you the Invisible Man who can penetrate office walls?
Speculation has less value than opinion.
Opinion is sometimes based on fact.
Nora, no and valid point but I do have one very public example from Sciosa’s body of work. I don’t recall the player right now but this was within the last season or two. One of his players made a big boo boo. Sciosa pulled him aside immediately in the dugout and gave him a “lecture.” Now admittedly I was delighted to see Gardy giving Lexi a “lecture” the other night in the dugout also. So maybe there’s hope yet for Gardy.
Sane, also valid point and no I’m not the Invisible Man although I’d luv to be a fly on the Twins clubhouse wall sometime, but do you really think Sciosa would have waited as long as Gardy did before bouncing Gomez down to #9 because he was afraid of damaging Gomez’ psyche permanently (which BTW Gomez response was no big deal, I’m sucking right now, so deserved)?
And does any other team have the managerial decisions similar to the LNP ongoing saga as well as the even more puzzling handling of Kubel?
Beisbol,
Most of the manager-player discussions are in the clubhouse or manager’s office. It is not good policy to lecture a player in front of his teammates unless that lecture would benefit those teammates.
Anything of a punitive nature should NEVER be done in the dugout. (in public)
Beisbol,
I’m only taking issue with the lack of “leading face to face with his players” comment.
Whether Gardy is a bad, good, or great manager is too broad a subject to discuss, although it is addressed daily on these blogs.
Sane I agree with you in principle, I was citing those two instances in response to Nora.
I agree most with you when it comes to the amateur ballplayers, especially the kids. Once in awhile like you said it’s worthwhile with the professional adult players. Jerry Manuel’s dressdown of Reyes didn’t hurt one bit. Maddon’s dressdown of Upton’s lack of hustle didn’t hurt one bit. In fact I hope he really gave it to Upton after that even more lackadaisical toss that allowed the Whities to win the AJ “flop” interference call worthy of the WWF game, especially if we lose by one game at the end of the season!
Sane, the Strib thought it wasn’t too broad, they even ran a survey a few weeks back.
Us bloggers opinions on Gardy and about $5 will just about buy you a plain cuppa at Starbucks. Gardy’s place in baseball history will eventually be decided by whether the Twins under his watch ever get to the WS not to mention actually winning one.
I’m assuming he is in no danger (other than his own health, hope he’s taking seriously diet and stress) of not being the Twins skipper for at least the next 3-5 years. Given the young talent he now has in his hands and hopefully some wise moves by BS with finally no more excuses from the Pohlads (as in surely they will be getting most of the $5 or $6 or whatever those dreaded domedogs cost these days when the new stadium opens) when it comes to some money to play with, it remains to be seen if Gardy is great, good, bad or ugly.
You know from these blogs that our passion runs high as far as the skip is concerned.
Beisbol,
Was the survey just a general approve or disapprove question?
or
Did it address the many aspects of the job?
The first possibility is obviously NOT too broad.
The second possibility could become the discussion without end.
beisbol, a lot of good solid points. The Sciosa example was Jose Guillen, who was a big part of the Angels team that year, 2003 or 2004. When Guillen did not get the message, the Angels cut him, i.e., play the Angels way or do not play at all.
On December 20, 2003, Guillén was signed by the Anaheim Angels. In 2004, he hit .294 with 27 home runs and 104 RBI for the Anaheim Angels, but he was suspended the last two weeks of the regular season and during the postseason for “inappropriate conduct” in publicly expressing his displeasure with Angels manager Mike Scioscia following Scioscia’s removal of Guillén in favor of a pinch runner during a crucial game against the Oakland Athletics. I call that leadership.
jack morris,
Same type of thing happened to Kyle Lohse.
It may have had something to do with his public displeasure with his removal(s) from games.
Gardenhire will find a way to juggle the lineup just enough to keep the Twins from winning the division. He can’t help it, his ego is more important to him than the Twins team. Watch and see !
Haze the rookies into taking their game to even another level.
Maybe the rookies could haze the vets into taking their game out of the toilet?
Twins ! game out. They were picked to be near last this year. Enjoy it!
Sane, the survey was neither. The choices were to the best of my memory - Gardy is
- best manager in MLB
- top 5
- average
- worst or one of the worst.
So, I think it wouldn’t be too broad, by your criteria??? Not sure.
Twins in crucial need of a motivator whether it be a fellow teammate or, what a novel idea, the manager. Somehow I doubt Gardy goes down in the manager hall of fame with the pithy advice of “just have fun”
But Casilla does belong in the HOF of best responses to stupid reporter questions:
When asked what he remembered about Gardy’s previous pep talk on Friday the 13th at Miller Park before the Twins went on their annual interleague annihilation tour, “Nothing. But it worked.”
One thing that I do not think has been mentioned: Sure Gomez got picked off and should not have but shouldn’t the manager make damn sure any of his players be more careful when running the bases especially an excitable kid and the team being in a pennant race and also a close game? At this point I believe this is elementary.
Good points La Velle. While this year’s Twins team has more raw talent than those 02-04 clubs those teams had way better chemistry and incredible defense (Koskie and Mientkiewicz is this best corner defensive combo I’ve ever seen). But really it’s the chemistry I see missing with this team. There were just so many new faces this year. This was the first season watching the Twins where I went “Who are these guys?” since 2001. I think as they club continues to gel they’ll continue to get better and better.
On the subject of managerial skills and since I’ve mentioned Sciosa several times on this blog, it will be interesting to see how he handles his team from now until their first playoff series. While not equivalent to the Rockies last year who literally had to sit around doing nothing waiting for the Sox to win, he will still have to battle a certain amount of momentum killing non-activity in probably playing bench players rather than risk injury to key players, etc. Then there is the whole thing of KRod making history vs. what’s good for the entire team. Whoever faces the Angels in the ALDS may IMO have an edge. ESPN listed the teams who clinched with the largest margins in recent history and none but one of the late 1990’s Yanks did well. The rest all lost.
Well this sucks:
NEW YORK - The Chicago White Sox won a coin flip with the Twins on Friday and would host Minnesota if the teams need to play a tiebreaker for the AL Central title.
Beisbol,
“Sane, the survey was neither. The choices were to the best of my memory - Gardy is
- best manager in MLB
- top 5
- average
- worst or one of the worst.
So, I think it wouldn’t be too broad, by your criteria??? Not sure.”
No, that’s simple enough.
From a distance, I would say he is above average and if I could watch practices, I might become convinced he is in the top 5.
The 2002-2004 teams had fielding. They would hang in there until the other team kicked the game away. That would happen, usually in the late innings. The Twins have better hitting now, but often the fielding blows the game. Often in the late innings.
Kubel should never play in the OF again. This off-season, replacing Young and Buscher with a couple guys who can field, would be a nice improvement. That would help win some more games in 2009.
Morneau will get a fair shot at MVP. Back in ‘06, he got it over Jeter. He was bashed in the mainstream media for weeks, but who cares.
Gardy is one of the best. If a manager loses, he’s either a hothead or doesn’t have much emotion. Bottom line, he gets the most out of his players. Who else would we get anyway, Eric Wedge.
