Gardy closing in on a deal; other notes…
Posted on October 15th, 2008 – 7:40 PMBy La Velle
Most of this will be in the ink version tomorrow, but I figured I’d get some of it out now…..
Twins manager Ron Gardenhire landed in Fort Myers today, and I was told that his contract extension could be done by the end of the week, perhaps Monday since we’re late in the week.
This was a formality, as the Twins organization holds Gardy and his coaching staff in high regard. The coaches are expected to get their deals done soon, too. I’m not sure those will be for one or two years. And Gardy usually negotiates for his coaches before taking care of himself.
The Mariners wanted to interview Mike Radcliff, the Twins’ Vice President of Player Personnel, for their vacant GM job. Radcliff, however, is happy with the Twins and has opted to stay. I wouldn’t be surprised if Wayne Krivsky, Terry Ryan’s former right-hand man, gets an interview there.
Twins minor league pitching coordinator Rick Knapp interviewed for 80 minutes on Tuesday for the Tigers’ pitching coach job. Knapp has been a huge help in developing arms. Through drafting and his work, there are more pitchers in the organization who look like legitimate prospects.
I asked a Twins official in Fort Myers today to name some prospects who have been impressive during instructional league. I was given the names of three pitchers: 1st round pick Carlos Gutierrez, sixth round pick B.J. Hermsen and 14th round pick Blayne Weller. All are righthanders.
66 Responses to "Gardy closing in on a deal; other notes…"
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Great! I wouldn’t want the fat fu** to actually be exposed for the loser he is! Let’s keep pretending here. It is, afterall, helping us achieve eternal mediocrity.
I get Radcliff and Knapp. Krivsky as well, as he was really Terry Ryan’s brains behind the scene, the guy that made Ryan look so good. They’re all great, deserving baseball minds. But Gardy is so goddam overrated it’s almost like we’re watching some sick plot twist in a Hollywood satire. He really has no clue as how to “manage” a ball club, and that was never more obvious than this year.
Then again, when you refuse to give anyone else a shot with this talented system, how will we ever know just how shi**y the guy really is???
Gardy should be given a multi year deal. He took a team with limited talent and produced about 18 more wins than most of us thought they would have.
Lavelle, can someone at the Strib please remove the score of the final game from the Twins’ front page. I really do remember we lost, and am hoping not to be reminded with each logon to Twins/Strib. Thank you! And keep up the good work. Looking forward to your reports on minor league progress, hot stove league rumors, and then spring training. Only 18 weeks to go!
Well deserved Gardenhire. thanks for the update La Velle.
Agreed… like the Redmond option pick-up, extending Gardy was an easy decision.
Gee, Lala72. (your IQ?) As a Twins fan outside of Minnesota, I get to hear watch other teams home broadcasts from time to time. Every new series, they guys in the other teams booth say that Gardy is one of the BEST IN THE GAME. I guess you know more about baseball than the guys who have praise Gardy over the years like Ken Harrelson, Jim Kaat, Vin Scully, Buck Martinez, and Joe Buck.
GIVE GARDY A 5 YR CONTRACT
THAN TRADE WITH ROCKIES AND GET MATT HOLIDAY FOR OF AND GARETT ATKINS FOR THIRD, TRADE FOR CABAERA FROM W SOX FOR SS
OF THAN SET WITH
HOLIDAY, SPAN, CUDDYHER
IF SET WITH
ADKINS, CABAERA,EVERRET OR?,MORNEAU
MAUER
This is the Twins we are talking about, they won’t make any unpredicted moves. They will probably sign a guy like Emil Brown to platoon DH
Man, I’ve been suffering from Twins news withdrawal! Thanks for finally posting something, LEN3! Glad to hear that Gardy is getting extended. He’s got some stubborn tendencies I don’t agree with but overall I think he’s done a tremendous job. Glad he’s getting recognized for it.
I am very glad to see that Gutierrez has impressed in his instructional league. The general thought was that the Twins reached for him, but knowing the Twins I doubted this. Let’s hope it turns into another great pick that the Twins are so well-known for!
Thanks for the update, LEN!
Amp,
The only reason Gardenhire is praised as such a “great manager” is because no one ever expects the Twins to go anywhere, and they always do. Don’t get me wrong, the regular season says a lot about a manager, but when push comes to shove, Ron Gardenhire has never shown that he can get anything done in the playoffs, and the playoffs is where good managing makes or breaks your team’s season.
Gardenhire plays favorites. It’s the reason Nick Punto was third on the team in plate appearances in 2007 despite having the worst offensive season in recent history, and it’s the reason it took Jason Kubel two years to (hopefully) become an every day player. It’s the reason Gardenhire will be 100% behind trying to get the Twins to make a colossal error and trade Delmon Young, but re-sign Nick Punto. It’s the reason Brendan Harris went MIA in September, despite superior offense and defense to Brian Buscher over the last few months.
Gardy has his boys that he loves, and he lets it cloud his judgment. Why else did we see Matt Guerrier time and time again while Craig Breslow bit his tongue to keep from shouting, “HELLO?! I HAVE A DAMN-NEAR SUB-2.00 ERA!!”
For as much as you can say Gardenhire managed the Twins into the position they were in, you can look back at several individual games this year and say he managed them right out of the playoffs as well.
People develop their own opinions. Who the hell cares what Joe Buck and The Hawk have to say? Watch the games and form an opinion of your own. The guys you’re citing as such credible baseball sources are the same ones who pick the Twins to finish 4th or 5th every year.
Now let’s try to sleep again… I’m turning into an insomniac, blagh…
I think the knock on the Twins is how MUCH they reached for Gutierrez. He was ranked in the mid-80s; they could have easily taken him a full round later and it still would have been considered a reach.
Still, good to hear he’s doing well indeed. As long as he pans out, I don’t care where he was drafted. It’s not like we passed up on Alvarez or Beckham for him, so meh.
Gardenhire has his flaws, but who doesn’t? Anyway, who would you rather have as a head coach? Some guy who never managed before? Stick with the known commodity. His playoff record is a little alarming, but I’d give him one more year with this, older (but still young), wiser, and (hopefully with the aid of a trade) better lineup/team. Twins will be the favorite coming out of ST for many people- of course that didn’t do the Indians/Tigres any good- but we’ll have a solid team next year. All we need to do is play similar to this year and (as always) stay healthy!!!
Bottom line, trading Young COULD be a great move, but that’s assuming we get something great AND he never really *pans out. Ultimately, it’d be a huge gamble- one I don’t think the FO will (or should) take. You gotta give him at least 1 more year.
*Whatever pans out means in (t)his case.
**The Twins should have made a trade at the deadline**
Replacing Young with Span in LF is far from a colossal mistake. You won’t be able to trade Cuddyer and Gomez is too good covering ground in CF. In fact, I’d rather have Gomez than Young; at least I know Gomez can field the ball properly. Young makes A-Rod look clutch.
Gardenhire plays favorites. It’s the reason Nick Punto was third on the team in plate appearances in 2007 despite having the worst offensive season in recent history
I’m pretty sure that not being given another option at 3B for nearly half a season didn’t help that stat either.
But we’ve been through that rigamaroll how many times now?
———-
On a side note, add Joe Torre to the list of managers (including Gardy, Socsia, Guillen, and Pinella) that should be fired immediately for failing to win a World Series this year. Especially Pinella and Socsia, who had the best teams in baseball all year long.
Speaking
The only rason Gradenhire is praised as a “great manager” is because the Twins keep winning their games.
Trade Young and Bonser to the Giants for Matt Cain, with Cain then going to the Brewers for J.J. Hardy.All 3 teams benefit and address their needs. Twins receive solid SS for many years and have several top outfield prospects on the way. They Keep their young starting staff intact.
Thanks for the update! Easy choice to retain Gardy. His bashers here really do not have a clue.
I don’t like Gardy’s extension. I’d rather have him play the remainder of his contract and then evaluate (but that has been discussed ad noseum) I don’t like the extension of some of his coaches even more… And I am not going to talk about the tired Vavra argument. My point is this: you got at least 4 young Latin American players (Casilla, Gomez, Mijares, Liriano), you got to have a Spanish speaking coach to effectively communicate with them. And the last 2 years, other than with Mijares, there have been incidents of bad communication between Gardy and each of them. I just don’t understand why Liddle is the bench coach instead of Bobby Cuellar, for example, other than he is Gardy’s buddy. This organization gotta do something… maybe a clause in Gardy’s extension should be Spanish classes…
Steve from Fridley,
“Ron Gardenhire has never shown that he can get anything done in the playoffs, and the playoffs is where good managing makes or breaks your team’s season.”
Is Joe Torre a good manager? His team failed miserably in the NLCS.
How about Terry Francona?
Walter Johnson,
If Gardy had half of the WS rings that Francona has and a quarter of those that Torre has, then they belong in the same sentence.
T,
Piniella, Scioscia, Torre, Guillen all have one thing in common that Gardy doesn’t, care to guess what?
Don’t you think the players have something to do with winning a World Series? You saying Joe Torre could manage any team and take them all the way? It sure didn’t happen with the Dodgers. Why the Yankees and not the Dodgers?
Anyone think Joe Torre or Terry Francona could have taken the Twins to multiple World Series titles with the talent they’ve had the past six or seven years?
thrylos98,
100 million dollar + payrolls?
Torre inherited a fourth place team and got it in the NLCS.
The player and talent argument goes both ways btw. Most baseball people think that players win championships not managers… all managers can do is not lose them, by learning from their mistakes and using the best player at the best situation, making the right call at the right situation (like if someone already hit a home run and the first base is open, walk him) and by keeping a good atmosphere in the clubhouse.
Boston & Yankee players won those series. Torre and Francona avoided losing them. The Twins’ players won those championships, the past years and Gardy chocked at the post season. This season, if not for Gardy’s calls, the Twins would have been in the post season.
JA,
3 words: Tampa Bay Rays
payrolls don’t matter than much
This season, if not for Gardy’s calls, the Twins would have been in the post season.
Oh yes. I forgot about that “Losses by Manager” stat you invented.
Piniella, Scioscia, Torre, Guillen all have one thing in common that Gardy doesn’t, care to guess what?
They don’t coach a team you root for and thus don’t fall under your daily scrutiny?
…Am I close?
thrylos98,
You’d have to give me some specific examples where Garenhire “choked” in 2006 costing the Twins a World Series title.
T,
close but no cigar… they all have WS rings (albeit Piniella’s is as dusty as the last Twins’ WS banner)
they all have WS rings
Oh is THAT what it was? I had NO idea…
Admit it. If you were a New York Yankee fan the last few years, you’d be right there yelling for Torre’s head after the 12th straight playoff appearance with “only” a 3-4 rings to show for it.
Torre, Pinella, Socsia, and potentially Francona all proved you wrong this year. Excellent teams with high payrolls and supposedly top level managers.
And so far they’re 3 for 3 in regards to getting steamrolled out of the playoffs.
Meanwhile, you’ve got the “lowly” Rays with some guy named Joe Maddon (who like Clint Hurdle last year was hardly even a blip on the national radar) poised to go to their first World Series EVER.
And funny, Maddon took over for the mighty Pinella. Who’s only claim to fame was…possibly getting the Rays one season where they weren’t last?
Gardy has 4 postseason appearances out of his 6 years managing. Which is pretty impressive considering the same people calling for Gardy’s head are often the same people ranting daily that the FO is doing NOTHING but tearing this team apart and guaranteeing future futility.
Essentially, the story changes to fit the need. One moment it’s the Twins sucking because they have no talent thanks to an inept/cheap FO…the next it’s the Twins sucking because the manager is a moron who’s wasting all this wonderful talent.
Consistency, not a strong point around here…
T,
How do you italicize other people’s comments? I’ve always wondered.
The only “bad” call I remember Gardy making was when he left Nathan in against the Yankees(?) for a second inning. However, his only other option was to bring in J.C. Romero who couldn’t get anybody out at the time. Frankly, the biggest mistake was the FO including a pitcher they couldn’t use on the playoff roster.
Walter,
It’s “” (above the comma and period if some formatting causes them not to appear in this comment).
You can use “i” to italicize, “b” to bold, and “u” to underline.
Having used other forums/comment sections before, I find it handy for ensuring that a reply is connected to the proper discussion.
For whatever reason, people hate it.
Go figure, they didn’t appear. They’re the greater-than/less-than symbols.
Gardy making was when he left Nathan in against the Yankees(?) for a second inning.
There was that, I also didn’t agree with the decision to PH Kubel for Ford (today that would seem like an absurd disagreement…but Ford was on fire that year and Kubel was still quite green)
But the biggest heartbreaker was that hit Koskie got off Rivera that BARELY went into the stands for the GRD. It forced Rivas (or was it Guzman?) to hold up at 3rd instead of scoring the go-ahead run.
“Torre inherited a fourth place team and got it in the NLCS.”
Torre lead that team to 84 wins this year. They only had a sniff of the postseason because they play in a terrible division. Gardenhire managed 88 wins in a tougher league and a tougher division. Also, the Dodgers Pythagorean W-L was 87-75, meaning Torre actually underperformed as manager.
Consistency, not a strong point around here…
I never said that the FO did not make this team more competitive this year. As a matter of fact, I was arguing last offseason that this team should win 89 games, and people thought that I was crazy. Remember?
Speaking of Tampa. Have a look at their lineup. Position by position, other than 3B and CF, one starter, and one reliever, the Twins have better players. The reason that Tampa is where it is now, instead of the Twins, is that it is a better managed team, that plays the hot hand no matter what their names, allows pitchers to throw 120 pitches if they are cruising and lets relievers finish innings if they are cruising no matter whether there is a lefty or righty on deck. And, yes, Maddon has computers in the dugout instead of 3-ring binders; imagine that.
And Gardy is 4/7 (not 4/6) and 0/2 the last 2 years.
Walter Johnson,
here are some of Gardy’s calls in the 2006 ALDS:
Game 1:
Lineup: Phil Nevin DH, Kubel on the bench
Bottom of the 6th (Twins down 2-0), Castillo on 1st, one out, Punto at bat. Mauer on deck. No bunt, no hit and run, no effort to move the runner up, Punto pops at 2B.
Bottom of the 8th (Twins down 2-1), Bartlett doubles to start the inning. Castillo next; no effort to move the runner to 3rd, especially when one of the best bunters in the league was at plate. No pinch hitting for Punto, especially as he failed on similar situation previously (see above)
Top of the 9th. Gardy brings in Crain instead of Neshek or Nathan to face Frank Thomas who hit a HR off Santana earlier in the game. Gardy lets Crain pitch to him instead of walking him. Result: Game winning home run. Neshek in 2 batters later… a little too late
Not a single PH/PR/defensive substitution in the game
Game 2:
Lineup: Tyner DH, Kubel on the bench
Top of the 7th (score tied 2-2). Neshek pitching allowing 1 hit and thrown 10 of 14 pitches for strikes, Gardy plays his matchups and brings in Reys in the middle of the inning to face Kotsay with 2 outs: Result inside the park homer
Not a single PH/PR/defensive substitution in the game
Game 3 (elimination game):
Radke starts (Silva, Perkins available) after pitching only 5 innings in September due to injury.
Tyner at DH (Kubel and Redmond do not get a single PA in the series)
Bottom of the 3rd (Twins down 2-0). Radke stuggled in the previous inning allowing a HR and a run scoring double. Does Gardy bring Silva or Perkins in? No. Radke in, allowing another HR, this one a 2 run. Silva does not pitch a single inning in the series, even though he has a team starter best 3.92 ERA in September.
Bottom of the 7th (Twins down 4-2). Reyes pitching 2 outs. IBB to Thomas (hey, lesson learned a bit too late), walk. Pitching change. Does Gardy bring in Neshek or Nathan? Nope. He brings in Crain who was extemely ineffective in game 1. Bases loaded walk, double the rest is history.
A single lineup change: Lew Ford pinch runs for RonDL at the top of the 9th…
And if you want to keep Gardy immune for the FO decisions this year read this:
http://www.twincities.com/wild/ci_10639592
here is a quote from Anthony:
The communication between front office and manager’s office, Antony said, is greater than most realize. Each decision is first brought to the manager. Every player considered in trade or free agency, according to Antony, is only considered after the skipper’s approval. That meant much conversation last offseason for Smith and Gardenhire.
So Gardy deserves blame for Juanie, Bassie, Monroe, Lamb, Everett et. al. this season… He approved their signings.
thrylos98,
I’m surprised you haven’t been hired as a major league manager. Everyone knows the best managers are those who can second-guess others from their armchair.
Thrylos
Gardy does have a world series ring, albeit not as a manager. He got one as a third base coach for our very own minnesota twins.
Thrylos,
The FO and the manager talk to each other about players? I don’t believe it. That would be silly. If this were true, the Twins would be the only mlb team that does this.
If you were a real Twins fan you would climb in a time machine, go back to last winter, and warn Gardy and Smith that what appeared to be decent aquisitions would be doomed to failure. While you are there, could you also call my 2007 self and warn me about the stock market.
you can’t blame Gardy for using Nathan 2+ in game 2 in 2004. He didn’t have many guys left and didn’t trust Romero anymore(would you). I was at that game and my Yankees buddy fan wanted to leave after Torii’s HR put them down by 1. I unfortunetly figured the bullpen would blow it because Nathan would be tired and there was no one else left.
YGTBKM,
I have seen Gardy’s ring personally, it is very big
I don’t think Gardy should be fired or berated as much as he is.
That being said-he tends to play to the match-up too often and as should let the hot hand play or in a lot of cases in 2008 let a guy like Breslow pitch to more than 1 guy!
The reason that Tampa is where it is now, instead of the Twins, is that it is a better managed team…
Funny, Tampa Bay had the same Manager last year, and 2006….did it not? How did his obviously superior managerial skills pay off those two years?
Same for Clint Hurdle. He was Manager of the Year material last season with the Rockies…now look where they are.
Before we go ahead and crown Maddon as the next Lombardi, let’s see if the Rays can actually come back and be in the hunt again.
T,
“if you want to crown em, then crown their ass”
-Denny Green 
One of my favorite coaching meltdowns of all time. Right up there with: “I can take it! I’m a MAN!”
My Goodness, this never ends…
1. The Dodgers reached the playoffs mainly because Man-Ram went nuts down the stretch.
2. Every manager leaves closers on the mound in the postseason. When Torii Hunter hit that homer against the Yankees in the playoffs, we all said in the pressbox, “Gardy better ask Nathan if he has one more inning in him,” because all they had left was Jesse Crain, who was good, but it’s New York in October and you give your best pitcher the ball.
3. Lou Piniella may have a ring, but he’s lost his last six postseason games.
4. Gardy signing off on all player moves is a little misleading. The FO tells him about players and some are more of a sell job than others. I know he was worried about shortstop heading into 2008 and probably was glad to have a reliable glove like Everett around. Who knew he would be hurt? And, I must point out, if the Twins had made the playoffs Everett’s fake bunt-double at Tampa Bay would have been one of the plays of the year.
I don’t think he was that fired up about Lamb. I think he was OK with Monroe, but the concept of Monroe as a bench player isn’t bad. He touched the ball a couple times, just not enough and the Twins moved on.
Juan Rincon? The Twins gave him every chance to turn things around. Can’t blame them for that. If Neshek is healthy maybe they move Rincon sooner.
5. The Punto non-moves in Game 1 of the ALDS are perplexing.
6. The Reyes-Kotsay matchup in Game 2 is the way to go. It was Torii Hunter who misplayed that sinking liner into a homer.
7. Seriously, Silva was 11-15 in 2006, and you wanted him to start in the postseason?
I know it never ends, and I was not going to talk about him (just the need for a Spanish-speaking coach), but hearing how wonderful he is, just made me not being able to help it
on your last point, La Velle, Silva had a terrible season because his sinker was as hittable as Livan’s fastball; However, he made adjustments late in the season and ended up the month of September with a 3.92 ERA and .264 BAA. For comparison, Boof, game 2 starter had a 5.02 ERA and a .316 BAA in September and Radke was out most of September. So Silva was the Twins hottest starter entering the playoffs, not named Santana. Fine to start Radke in game 3. But it is the elimination game. He had a horrid inning. You got Silva rested, Perkins rested. Why don’t you get Silva in…
I think that Gardy is very reluctant to got with the hot guys and is very generous to go with the ‘true and proven’ for him. We saw that this season with the use of Rincon and Guerrier in September and the use of Buscher over Harris (.578 OPS vs .878 OPS in September) and Punto over Everett (.653 OPS vs. .764 OPS) in September…
Is he a horrible manager? Nope. But I think that he makes some head scratching decisions that cost this team…
The offseason moves were fine, other that the Rincon signing and the Monroe non-cutting during ST, when Ruiz beat him for the DH position…
Wow thrylos98. I had to go back and reread your comment from 10:44 three times to make sure that I was reading it right. You said, “Other than 3B, CF, one starter and one reliever, the Twins have better players.”
That is a pretty astonishing statement. Other than Mauer, Morneau, and Nathan, the Rays are superior at every position and from starters number 1-5. The Rays have lots of talent and will be good for years to come. The cheap, Pohlad-owned Twins have three great players and not enough else to ever be a serious contender. That being said, trade Delmon for a couple of broken bats, if we can get that much in trade.
1. The Dodgers reached the playoffs mainly because Man-Ram went nuts down the stretch.
Speaking of Man-Ram and nuts…why hasn’t Boston done anything in regards to requesting an investigation by the league in regards to Manny and potentially tampering?
I mean, the guy’s being paid to play, and is not only faking injury, but outright refusing to play. And when he did play, he didn’t play.
How is that NOT a punishable offense?
The Rays have lots of talent and will be good for years to come.
We were saying the same thing about Colorado at about this time last year. “Great young talent”, “Good for years to come”, “Better manager”, etc…
Like I said before, let’s see how the Rays follow up the next few years before deeming them the new team to beat in the East. Because lord knows they’ll be named that going into 2009.
t98,
Now tell me the bad moves Gardy made that DIDN’T result in something negative and I’ll really be impressed.
A spanish-speaking coach has been brought up before. But Jerry White knows enough Spanish to get by and had Carlos Gomez as a neighbor all season.
And Tony Oliva is on the field before home games.
I wouldn’t say the Rays have a better #1, #2, or #3 than the Twins.
I’d take Sonnastine and Jackson over Blackie and Perk though.
Baker > Kazmir though very close
Liriano => Shields
Slowey = Garza right now, though Garza could have a better career
Thrylos,
You may have a legitimate case regarding some of your complaints about game management by Gardy, but you are pretty harsh in your judgments. I’d argue that Gardy’s team management outweighs an occasional questionable decision, especially considering the fact that the questioner may not be considering all the facts and probably doesn’t know all the facts in many cases, and in addition fails to consider the limits imposed by having crappy options. (Let’s see, Radke…Silva…Bonser…what to do, what to do…)Gardy has managed his teams very well by most people’s observation, mine included. He desrves credit for that.
That is a pretty astonishing statement. Other than Mauer, Morneau, and Nathan, the Rays are superior at every position and from starters number 1-5.
Alright, here are the numbers:
bold is better; when there no bold = tie
C Mauer .328/.413/.451; Navarro .295/.349/ .407
1B Morneau .300/.374/.499; Pena .247/.377/.494
2B Casilla .281/.333/.374; Iwamura .274/.349/.380
3B Buscher .294/.340/.390; Longoria .272/.343/.531
SS Punto .284/.344/.382; Bartlett .286/.329/.361
LF Young .290/.336/.405; Crawford .273/.319/.400
RF Span .294/.387/.432; Gross .242/.333/.434
CF Gomez .258/.296/.360; Upton.273/.383/.401
DH Kubel .272/.335/.471; Floyd .268/.349/.455
SP Liriano (*2nd Half) 2.74 ERA .236 BAA; Kazmir 3.49 ERA, .220 BAA
SP Baker 3.45 ERA .247 BAA; Shields 3.65 ERA .254 BAA
SP Slowey 3.99 ERA .260 BAA, Garza 3.70 ERA, .245 BAA
SP Blackburn 4.05 ERA .292 BAA; Sonnastine 4.38 ERA, .277 BAA
SP Perkins 4.41 ERA .301 BAA; Jackson 4.42 ERA .281 BAA
CL Nathan 1.33 ERA .179 BAA; Percival 4.53 ERA .178 BAA
RP Reyes 2.33 ERA .235 BAA; Wheeler 3.12 ERA .183 BAA
RP Crain 3.59 ERA .257 BAA; Miller 4.15 ERA, .242 BAA
RP Breslow 1.91 ERA .202 BAA; Howell 2.22 ERA .197 BAA
RP Mijares 0.87 ERA .088 BAA; Bradford 1.42 ERA, .271 BAA
RP Guerrier 5.19 ERA .275 BAA; Balfour 1.54 ERA .143 BAA
I am including Liriano’s call up numbers…
birdofprey,
he does deserve credit and credit is given… this is what I wrote:
Is he a horrible manager? Nope. But I think that he makes some head scratching decisions that cost this team…
Hmmm… Rays compared to Twins… gee, they BOTH boast young, impressive rosters. It’s important to recognize that the Rays had great drafting positions consistently for many years straight. I’d say the Twins’ FO deserves accolades, and so does the farm system, and so does the field staff. By the way, Thrylos, it is a matter of opinion regarding many of your bold choices. Many. The great news is the Twins now have a pretty good young team. But suffice it to say that if the Twins pull a Colorado next year, it will be Gardy’s game decisions that caused it.
Are there managers out there that do not make some head-scratching moves over the course of a season? I have an intuitive sense that many of the best game managers are mediocre team managers and eventually wear out their welcome a la Gene Mauch. Give me consistency and longevity and I’ll give up a win or two in a season.
it is a matter of opinion regarding many of your bold choices. Many.
The numbers are not a matter of opinion. Young had a better year than Crawford. It is a matter of fact. Is he a better player? That is a matter of opinion, and is not the question I was trying to answer…
Here you have 2 young teams (actually the Twins are a little younger than the Rays), with similar production by their starting and a slight advantage for the Twins. One of these teams, wins the toughest division in baseball and is about to participate in the World Series, the other ends up second in a much less tough division.
What gives?
thrylos98,
Good point. But it isn’t enough to just look at the stats of the Rays and Twins and say that the Twins were better and therefore should have won more games than the Rays. First, the stats are spread out over an entire season. Morneau had better numbers than his counterpart at 1B with the Rays - over the entire season. However, Morneau started the season very cold and he finished the season very cold. This contributed to Twins losses. Did Pena provide the Rays with more consistancy? I don’t know. Did the Rays players pick each other up more than the Twins? I don’t know that either, but you have to put all nine players together to win or lose a game. Players can have worse numbers overall than another team but use their fewer hits or fewer RBIs more judiciously, amounting in a greater number of victories.
Were the White Sox a superior team in 2005? I don’t think so. Did Ozzie do a superior managing job? I don’t think that either. What the Sox did was have an amazing streak of coming from behind to win games. Honestly, I call it luck. Every break seemed to go their way. I’m not saying that the Rays were lucky in 2008. I’m just saying that there are many contributing factors to a team’s record.
Let’s say you have a four-game series. The Twins win the first game 4-0 then lose the final three games by a 0-1 score each game. The Twins outscored the opponent 4-3 but still lost 3 out of 4. Replay that scenario multiple times and it’s easy to see how one team can have superior offensive statistics yet still lose more games.
Walter Johnson,
agreed, one team can have superior offensive statistics yet still lose more games. but the manager should receive some blame for that, shouldn’t he?
“Torre inherited a fourth place team and got it in the NLCS.”
Yeah, in a lousy division. And getting Manny (and to a lesser extent) Blake really helped. And let’s not forget that the D’Backs looked nearly as flat as the Mets down the stretch.
Chicago had it’s tough times down the stretch, but the Twins didn’t acquire a Blake or (god forbid) a Manny to help us down the stretch. We got Everyday Eddie to help us out. Whoopie.
If the Dodgers were in ANY other division, they’d never made the playoffs.
