Morneau second, Mauer fourth in AL MVP voting
Posted on November 18th, 2008 – 1:12 PMBy La Velle
Boston’s Dustin Pedroia has been voted AL MVP, outpointing the Twins’ Justin Morneau 317-257.
Twins catcher Joe Mauer finished fourth, receiving two first-place votes. It’s the highest he’s finished in MVP voting. He was sixth in 2006.
Five different players received first place votes, a reflection of how many voters struggled with the decision - and a reflection of the different criteria used to determined what’s an MVP.
Pedroia received 16 first-place votes, 6 second-place votes and 4 third-place votes. Morneau received seven first place votes.
Here’s how the voting went (it’s the number of first-place votes, followed by second place, and so on):
| Player | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th | 9th | 10th | Points |
| Dustin Pedroia | 16 | 6 | 4 | 1 | — | — | — | — | — | — | 317 |
| Justin Morneau | 7 | 7 | 6 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | — | — | — | 257 |
| Kevin Youkilis | 2 | 4 | 4 | 9 | 2 | 4 | 1 | 2 | — | — | 201 |
| Joe Mauer | 2 | 8 | 1 | 3 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | — | 188 |
| Carlos Quentin | — | 1 | 4 | 8 | 4 | 4 | 4 | — | 1 | 1 | 160 |
| Francisco Rodriguez | 1 | 2 | 6 | 1 | 6 | — | 3 | 2 | — | 2 | 143 |
| Josh Hamilton | — | — | 2 | 2 | 3 | 7 | 3 | 2 | 4 | 3 | 112 |
| Alex Rodriguez | — | — | — | — | 1 | 1 | 4 | 1 | 4 | 7 | 45 |
| Carlos Pena | — | — | 1 | — | 2 | — | 2 | 3 | 2 | 3 | 44 |
| Grady Sizemore | — | — | — | — | — | 2 | 1 | 5 | 6 | 1 | 42 |
| Evan Longoria | — | — | — | — | — | 2 | 2 | 5 | 2 | 1 | 38 |
| Cliff Lee | — | — | — | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | — | 1 | — | 24 |
| Miguel Cabrera | — | — | — | — | — | 1 | — | 1 | 4 | 1 | 17 |
| Vladimir Guerrero | — | — | — | — | — | — | 2 | 2 | 1 | — | 16 |
| Jermaine Dye | — | — | — | — | 1 | — | — | 2 | — | 2 | 14 |
| Aubrey Huff | — | — | — | — | — | 1 | — | — | 2 | 3 | 12 |
| Milton Bradley | — | — | — | — | — | 1 | 1 | — | — | — | 9 |
| Jason Bartlett | — | — | — | — | 1 | — | — | — | — | — | 6 |
| Mike Mussina | — | — | — | — | — | — | — | 1 | — | — | 3 |
| Raul Ibanez | — | — | — | — | — | — | — | — | — | 1 | 1 |
| Ian Kinsler | — | — | — | — | — | — | — | — | — | 1 | 1 |
| Ichiro Suzuki | — | — | — | — | — | — | — | — | — | 1 | 1 |
| Mark Teixeira | — | — | — | — | — | — | — | — | — | 1 | 1 |
If the season had ended on Sept. 13, Morneau probably would have won his second MVP award in three years. But he batted .146 over the final 16 games and failed to come through in some really big situations.
I really struggled with Morneau vs. Pedroia down the stretch. I looked at all kinds of numbers and even reached out to a couple local stat mavens (they know who they are). And there was Joe C.’s awesome post.
In the end, I just couldn’t ignore how Morneau finished.
Looking back, I should have voted Mauer a little higher.
My top five included Pedroia first, Morneau second, Kevin Youkilis third and Mauer fifth. You can vote for Mauer anywhere in the top five and feel O.K. about it because of his production at such a demanding position. But you can argue that he’s a top-three pick. I think I got wound up about RBI at the end, looked at what Morneau did and allowed that to influence where I placed Mauer. I second-guess myself on this vote every year….
By the way, I was the one who gave Aubrey Huff the sixth place vote. Every time I looked up numbers, or asked the Twins to run numbers of league leaders in various categories, Huff was right around Morneau. He quietly had a strong season.
Update: Here’s the Boston Globe story on the award.
232 Responses to "Morneau second, Mauer fourth in AL MVP voting"
I would have like to have seen Morneau named as the MVP but he had a terrible last month of the season and don’t feel he deserved it. Let’s get some hitting ahead and behind him so he can have an MVP season in 2009. Go Twins!!!
MCat,
I agree. Morneau had man clutch opportunities during the last week of the season and he failed to come through. If he had come through just one time, the Twins would’ve won the division. Then Morneau probably would’ve won the MVP.
Rodriquez over Hamilton?
*pfft*
Nice to see the two biggest faces on the Twins going 2nd and 4th. Further evidence against those claims that somehow Morneau doesn’t get any respect vs. Mauer.
And for the record:
Jason Bartlett Tampa Bay Rays — — — — 1 — — — — — 6
That voter needs to get smacked upside the head. How much you wanna bet he’s from Tampa and bit into that whole “OMG t3h BARTLETT!” craze.
Seriously, that’d be like Punto getting an MVP vote.
I want to know why Fatso Cabrera got any votes - he had a downright lousy season. Punto outplayed him.
But congrats to Pedroia, and bigger congrats to Mauer and Morneau for being right there at the top. It gives a little beacon of hope for next year.
Research for LaVelle -
Who didn’t have Pedroia on their ballot??
That’s way worse than not having Pedro!!
” want to know why Fatso Cabrera got any votes - he had a downright lousy season. Punto outplayed him.”
Have you looked at his numbers???
Let me rephrase my comment: Cabrera had a lousy season by his standards. He didn’t do a lot until after the All-Star break, kind of the opposite of Josh Hamilton.
Hey, maybe that’s what happened - Fatso Cabrera stole Hamilton’s mojo via some witch doctor.
Speaking of Bartlett for MVP votes:
Evan Longoria Tampa Bay Rays — — — — — 2 2 5 2 1 38
Jason Bartlett Tampa Bay Rays — — — — 1 — — — — — 6
Yes. You’re readin that right. Bartlett got a single 5th place vote, while the highest vote for Longoria was 6th.
Which means that whoever put Bartlett on their ballot either didn’t even vote for Longoria…or put him BELOW Bartlett.
Who are these people? Do they require drug tests prior to submitting ballots?
Miggy Cabrera’s line:
.292/.349/.537, 37 Hr, 127 RBI
That is not lousy.
Pedroia probably deserves it. I can’t stand the guy, but it’s more a sign of respect than true dislike. Looking forward to another season of “Red Sox Game of the Week” on ESPN and Fox.
[…] Twins Insider – […]
the power of the talking heads at espn, voice of the red sox.
it is hard to understand how punto didn’t get some votes, i guess gardy and dick bremer don’t have a vote.
T
Don’t start with me even thinking that LNP would get a vote and I agree that whoever voted for Bartlett needs his head examined. Guess I’m okay with the way the balloting turned out since I think Pedroia and Youkilis had good seasons - almost felt like Youkilis had a better shot at it than Pedroia. At any rate I’m waiting patiently for the FO to do something about getting Hardy or Escobar and maybe Blake too. Can’t wait for spring - Go Twins!!
I cant stop laughing at those stats what a joke Jason Bartlett ha ha ha.
Pedroia is a great player, but hitting ahead of guys like Youkolis, Drew, Ortiz, Lowell and Ramirez has it’s advantages. Mauer would hit .380+ every year if he hit 2nd for Boston with the lineup they had for most of the season….even with the injuries/trades that went on with Boston this season..
I believe that Jason Bartlett was selected by his team, as the Rays’ MVP for 2008. In spite of all the great individual performances by the Rays this year, people in that organization felt that Bartlett, by stabilizing the infield defensively, was as important to the season-long success of the Rays as someone like Longoria, Crawford, Garza, Pena, Upton, et al. His work in the field helped to make the Rays’ pitchers better, too.
It could be that the writers down in Florida cast their votes for Bartlett and Longoria, respectively. Don’t know this, for sure….just speculation.
Congrats to Dustin Pedroia, on the MVP award this year. I think Justin Morneau’s struggles at the plate down the stretch may have proven to be a factor in the voting. Great year by Morneau, and Joe Mauer, as well. But getting to the playoffs may have helped both guys in the voting.
Good job East coast media and Bud “I’m a Crook” Selig for screwing the public out of a propper MVP. What a joke of a selection. Even Youk was better then Pedroia. Even A Rod was better. Even Mauer was better. Way to screw this one up crook Selig and East coast media. Way to go.
Here’s something interesting. Pedroia only got 27 total votes. Youkilis and Morneau each got the full 28, if that’s the total # voters. If so, someone didn’t even have Pedroia in the top 10!!
If JRoll and Pedroia won MVP in the same year could we rename the award “Midget Valuable Player Award”
Whoever gave a first-place vote to K-Rod should immediately be banned from any further MLB voting.
And, yes BC of ND, the Bartlett fifth-place vote is hilarious.
Who are these people? They should have to show themselves.
Evan Grant of the Dallas Morning Star.
Get him!!!
I voted for Pedroia he’s splended
I really didn’t want to see Pedroia get it- mostly because I have a knee-jerk “I want to see them wrong” reaction to any of ESPN’s predictions. Plus I don’t think Pedroia’s season was all that better than Mauer’s (and it probably wasn’t).
Oh well- Morneau will just have to work on earning that MVP while propelling the Twins to the playoffs in ‘09…
I don’t think Pedroia’s season was all that better than Mauer’s (and it probably wasn’t).
VORP: Pedroia 59.8, Mauer 57.1
much ado about nothing.
Why did my last post not show up?
And next week on Little People Big World Justin pedroia with his dad Eddie Gaedel, all 3′ 7″ will be on the show and talking about getting the MVP award and why he feels he deserves it over such talented players such as Mauer, Morneau and of course even his teamate Youk.
that happens to me too, Jake. This server is glitchy.
Agreed Swannie. It’s fine that our guys got 2nd and 4th. The got due respect, but gives them motivation to stick it to them next year. Plus, we have to extend Maurer’s contract this winter.
Oops, Mauer.
The award reads 2008 MVP, not the September 2008 MVP.I have no problem with the winner,although Youkilis would have been my choice,but to say Morneau lost because of a bad three week stretch is ridiculous.Everybody has a bad stretch at some point during the season.If Morneau hadn’t been the player he was for the first 5 1/2 months the Twins wouldn’t have come close to the Division title.
Bottom line IMO is if you take Pedroia out of Bostons line up they still contend,Youkilis less so .Take Morneau out of the Twins line up and they finish with the Tigers.Isn’t that what an MVP is?
Pro from Dover:
You are awakening the debate of A-Rod’s 2003 MVP.
len 3 watches to much espn for his baseball info! nation propaganda 24/7.
I wouldn’t trade Mauer or Morneau’ season for Pedroia’s. This years MVP winner is a complete joke. It is a consolation prize for a big market team because they couldn’t make it to the WS
One can’t help but notice that Pedroia’s vote total was only 27, so someone didn’t even see him as being in the top 10.
Is Al Frankin looking into this?
I wonder if sportswriters are just as gullible as everyone else watching ESPN (i.e., they assume that if it’s said on Baseball Tonight constantly, it must be true…)
Is Al Frankin looking into this shamockery?
BC of ND says:
November 18th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Is Al Frankin looking into this shamockery?
Yes Franken and Al Gore are out there counting every last vote
Just linked to the Globe story about the voting.
Here’s the link again:
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2008/11/dustin_pedroia_1.html
Whoever gave k-rod a first place vote, and bartlett a 5th place vote, should no longer be able to vote. They made those votes for the sole purpose of drawing attention to themselves. And the sad thing is, it will work. Now those schmucks will be on every sports talk show in the country, discussing why they made those bonehead votes.
One of the things I do not understand is how the player who ended up leading the league in OPS (by 34 points over the second place) got only 2 (low) votes from all the writers.
Thanks for the link Len3 and Grant is right on when he say OPS should be the biggest factor.
K-Rod wouldn’t have cracked my top 10, but this is exactly why they have 28 guys voting. Everyone has a different set of criteria (and a little bit if bias). While there were certainly some oddball votes, none of the top vote-getters was undeserving.
Morneau lost this award as much as Pedroia won it.
I would have had Mauer at 6th. I hate the idea of voting for a reliever, but K-Rod was money.
Quentin won more games for the Whitesox this year than Mauer has in his career.
Pedroia and Youkolis can pull the damn ball, and Morneau choked in September. All of those players were more valuable to the league than Mauer.
Mauer would get more votes from me for his way of handling the pitching staff than I would ever give him for his lack of clutch hitting, his 6-4-3 DP, and lazy fly balls to the left fielder, and his seeing eye singles between the SS and 3rd base.
Mauer is just Brian Harper Jr offensively…
joe nathan had a better season than k-rod, this is fact. Elite closers, while certainly nice to have, should not get mvp votes. k-rod got votes based on his save total, and saves, while nice, are a matter of oppurtunity. K-rod getting votes is like saying “Congratulations, your team put you in a favorable positiion, therefore you are the most valuable player in the league!”
Why don’t they use a computer calculation like the BCS does in college football rankings. Maybe the East Coast media is completely against this because it would take the Big MArket media out of it
what an embarrassing vote by the writers once again. 1st of all, Youkillis had a better season then Pedroia. secondly, they can say what they want about Manny’s attitude, but once Manny was dealt, the Red Sox were done. Manny made that team go regardless of the stupidity he also brought to that team. third, Milton Bradley had a better year then Pedroia, Carlos Quentin had a better year then Pedroia, Ian Kinsler was having a better year until he got hurt, Josh Hamilton had a better year, Aubrey Huff was better, A-Rod was better, Miguel Cabrera, Cliff Lee, Roy Halladay.
what an absolutely terrible effort by the writers this year. The only things they got right so far was Beltre’s gold glove, Lincecum’s Cy Young, Soto’s ROY, and Joe Maddon’s manager of the year, and Phillips, Rollins, Beltran, and Victorino’s Gold Gloves. The rest of the awards, just awful…..so that means, they’ve gotten 16 wrong to this point out of 24. not good.
“Mauer would get more votes from me for his way of handling the pitching staff than I would ever give him for his lack of clutch hitting”
Mauer led the league in Win Probability Added… which means he was the most clutch hitter in the league when the game counted.
Kidding,
I agree with you regarding K-Rod.
He saved 90% of his opportunities, which is typical for closers.
Most closers will get a SVO in about 2/3 of his outings, K-Rod had a SVO in 90% of his outings. That is how he got the saves record. It was due more to the Angels to get/hold big leads than it was K-Rod’s performance.
You’ve Got To Be Kidding Me! says:
November 18th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
joe nathan had a better season than k-rod, this is fact. Elite closers, while certainly nice to have, should not get mvp votes. k-rod got votes based on his save total, and saves, while nice, are a matter of oppurtunity. K-rod getting votes is like saying “Congratulations, your team put you in a favorable positiion, therefore you are the most valuable player in the league!”
no doubt. toward the end of the year, the Angels were getting Francisco save chance when the team was down by 4 runs just to get him that pointless record. I was watching one game that he came in. the Angels were up by 4, there were 2 outs in the 9th, the Angels reliever had loaded the bases, but still, they didn’t need Francisco, but because it was now technically a save a chance, he was brought in.
1. K-Rod got a cheap record.
2. K-Rod was only the 5 best closer in the AL.
3. The saves rule needs to be changed.
“secondly, they can say what they want about Manny’s attitude, but once Manny was dealt, the Red Sox were done.”
Done with what? 1.) they were about to suspend Manny, and 2.) they played great after he was gone and got to Game 7 of the ALCS…
La Velle
My top five included Pedroia first, Morneau second, Kevin Youkilis third and Mauer fifth. You can vote for Mauer anywhere in the top five and feel O.K. about it because of his production at such a demanding position. But you can argue that he’s a top-three pick. I think I got wound up about RBI at the end, looked at what Morneau did and allowed that to influence where I placed Mauer.
What is LEN3 smoking? He hitting Dubay’s stash? can’t vote for Mauer because of Morneau’s influence? Last I checked, Pedroia had Youkillis, Manny, Ortiz, Bay, Drew, Lowell. sorry LEN3, Mauer having Morneau is a very weak argument at best.
SethSpeaks says:
November 18th, 2008 at 3:16 pm
“secondly, they can say what they want about Manny’s attitude, but once Manny was dealt, the Red Sox were done.”
Done with what? 1.) they were about to suspend Manny, and 2.) they played great after he was gone and got to Game 7 of the ALCS…
wonderful. however, once they dealt Manny, the Red Sox World Series bid was over. Ortiz can’t survive without Manny. Having Manny around is what made Ortiz good in the first place. Just like without Randy Moss, Culpepper would’ve been done well before he was. Manny doesn’t need Ortiz to be good, but Ortiz needs Manny to be good.
Hey Seth you have to admit that with Manny not being Manny the Red Sox would have rolled bast the Rays and Phillies.
So Len3 that fact that Pedroia was 17th in the AL in OPS didn’t matter to you?
“the Red Sox World Series bid was over.”
They were one game from the World Series!
“Hey Seth you have to admit that with Manny not being Manny the Red Sox would have rolled bast the Rays and Phillies.”
Maybe (that can’t be certain either… the Rays and Phillies are pretty good), but the reality is the Manny is Manny, he would have been suspended by the Red Sox, they were able to get Jason Bay, and even with Manny being Good Manny, the Dodgers didn’t get to the World Series either.
I hate to sound like a Manny lover but i do respect his game and without him the Dodgers would’ve finshed 3rd in the NL east. I agree that the Rays and Phillies are good but Manny is an RBI machine.
Can anyone please tell me the last time we had an MVP with such shotty numbers in both HR totals (17) and RBI totals (80) as Pedroia did?
jimmybee i believe it was 1872.
BC I would believe you maybe 1920’s Ty Cobb
I lied i just checked it was 2001 when Ichiro won.
wasn’t it len 3 that didn’t vote for pedro? is this a make up vote?
lets see the key word is VALUABLE!
bradley/hamilton play for texas finished 21 gms out, huff plays for balt finished 28.5 gms out, ibanez/suzuki play for sea. finished 39 gms out. if your team finishes over 20 games out imo you don’t have a valuable player worth a vote or change the award to the best season by a player.
BC Ichiro had a much higher avg (.350) with more SB(56) and hits (242)then Pedroia did. Even though he had those type numbers I still don’t feel Ichiro was deserving of the MVP award. Especially if Tony Gwynn hits .390 and doesn’t even come in second in years past.
I usually look at HR totals and RBI totals when deciding an MVP award. Highest avg goes to the batting champ. Mauer is this years AL batting champ and not Pedroia. Pedroia as the MVP is a big market media joke.
i agree jimmybee look at the runner ups numbers in 2001 .342/477/660
Seth, I’ve been a fan for 35 years, and I’ve never heard of that statistic you just brought up. I love it, and I want to see how it’s calculated.
When you compare his numbers to other hitters that hit 3rd in the lineup… where did his SLG, and RBI’s fall in?
Mauer is a GREAT catcher, and damn near a HOF catcher, but he is still not a number 3 hitter in major league baseball. He is like Tony Gwynn or Wade Boggs… a great slap hitter that would be best in the 1st or 2nd spot in the lineup.
Heck, I’m not even against the idea of the lineup going Span, Mauer, Morneau (getting Justin an extra 30ABs a season.)
But Mauer is not a number 3 hitter!
Jimmy Bee.
I said that Morneau LOST the MVP as much as Pedroia won it…
This means that I don’t think Pedroia was a great decision. I like Youkolis more than Pedroia.
If I had the vote.
1. Youkolis, 2. Morneau 3. K-Rod (saves are overrated until they are blown like Nathan choked in September), 4. Quentin, 5. Pedroia 6. Mauer 7. Longoria, 8. Hamilton, 9. Texiera, 10. Guerrero
BC - go to http://www.FanGraphs.com for WPA, but the quick definition is to say that each play in a game has a value to it. A Grand Slam that gives a team a 10 run lead in the 8th inning is not worth as much as a three run double in the bottom of the 3rd that gives his team a one run lead.
BC Beneke I could except Youk being MVP or Morneau or even Quentin. But not a leadoff type hitter. If Pedroia played anywhere else then on the east coast we would be saying to ourselves first off he wouldn’t even be mentioned with the other players in contention next up he wouldn’t win the award. Remember the famous saying “location, location, location”
Although I would go Mauer, then Youklis, then Pedroia, then Morneau, I have to admit that I am happy to see that the old-fashioned thinking that only a home run/RBI guy can win the MVP. I think it’s great to see that this game is about more than hitting home runs.
From FanGraphs.com, the Top 10 Hitters in the AL in Win Probability Added:
1.) Joe Mauer
2.) Carlos Pena
3.) Justin Morneau
4.) Carlos Quentin
5.) Grady Sizemore
6.) Dustin Pedroia
7.) Miguel Cabrera
8.) Raul Ibanez
9.) Josh Hamilton
10.) Bobby Abreu
Seth, I am going to check that site out because I know that if I had my choice to have someone hitting in the clutch Mauer wouldn’t make my list.
I want to see where I went wrong, or if I am so sick of Minnesota media, and the Twins franchise hype of Mauer that I am belittling his inability to pull the ball.
1. Kinsler
2. Quentin
3. Morneau
4. Youkilis
5. Bradley
6. Miggy
7. Halladay
8. Lee
9. Hamilton
10. Huff
“Seth Speaks I think it’s great to see that this game is about more than hitting home runs.”
Why did Tony Gwynn never win an MVP? Maybe it was only a good thing to go back to the old route of voting when it is Boston or the Yankees and not when Tony Gwynn for the small market Pad’s is hitting in the .390’s. I don’t know
I just don’t get how a guy like Pedroia could win an MVP, he is on an all-star team. If they didn’t have Pedroia do you think they would have not made the playoffs? No they would have. Do you think the Twins would have had a chance to get to the playoffs without Morneau? No way! Thus that is why Morney should have gotten it. But hey it wasn’t up to me.
All I can say is Congrats Pedroia
what does pulling the ball have to do with Clutch hitting? Also… all those 4-6-3 DPs are pulling the ball?! 
Seth,
I would have guessed #2,#4,#5, and #8
Ibanez is a poor man’s Paul O’Neill
sabremetrics are a joke and if you even look at a single sabremetric stat in deciding any award you should have your ability to vote for award taken away.
they are very fraudulent numbers that don’t actually have any basis for anything. furthermore, the best way to judge players is to actually watch games.
Seth, I said 6-4-3 DPs.
SS to 2nd to 1st. Mauer can’t pull the ball.
La Velle-
I am disappointed. You voted for the east coast monsters. You know there are enough homers over there on the east coast voting for those guys that you could have cast your ballot in a way to offset it, ie) 1. Morneau 2. Mauer. I am certainly disappointed.
La Velle did you vote against Dick Allen making the HOF because he was bad with the media.
Gold glove, silver slugger, and batting title - from a catcher with a rotation with an average tenure of about 1+ years of major league experience - give Joe the MVP!
(If only McCain would have picked this Joe to be his spokesman! … )
Why did Tony Gwynn never win an MVP?
Same reason that Kirby Puckett did not win an MVP
Tony Gwynn’s best season was in 1994 when he went .394/.454/.568; the unanimous 1st place MVP voter, Jeff Backwell, went .368/.451/.750; I don’t think that there were a lot of arguments back then.
The highest that Gwynn finished was 3rd, in 1984. That season he went .351/.410/.444. The winner was another second baseman, Ryne Sandberg, who went .314/.367/.520.
Arguably, fundamental rate and cumulative statistics meant more back then, since there was not such a thing as advanced statistical analysis, even though SABR was a good 13 years old.
Jake.
Give LaVelle credit for having some integrity!
Morneau choked, and Mauer doesn’t deserve it.
Pedroia didn’t do it for me either, but Youkolis deserved it.
Marcus
Not even baby Jesus could have helped McCain.
Mauer is not an MVP. I would like to know which two idiots voted for him in 1st place.
Mauer just Brian Harper offensively. That doesn’t intimidate me. Even if you upgrade him to Boggs or Gwynn status… oh no… a slap hit single to the opposite field…
What the hell does that do?
I would take Mauer over any other catcher because of his defensive capablities, but if I was just looking for offense I would take Posada without a 2nd thought…
sabremetrics are a joke and if you even look at a single sabremetric stat in deciding any award you should have your ability to vote for award taken away.
they are very fraudulent numbers that don’t actually have any basis for anything. furthermore, the best way to judge players is to actually watch games.
and microwave ovens cause cancer
There are a few thinks in play here:
Complex statistical formulae (”what you probably refer to by ’sabermetrics’) were invented to actually describe objectively (i.e. put a numerical value) observations. The data they are using as an input in some cases are traditional rate (i.e. batting average) or observational data (data that come by ‘watching players play’; such as how many times a particular batter moved a runner from 1st to 3rd -this is part of WPA- or how many times a fielder failed to snag a line drive chest high -this is part of plus/minus). So they are as ‘fraudulent’ as either the traditional data (BA/OBP/SLG etc) or the observations.
Everything has its place. The use of some traditional data, like W-L pitching record (or saves for that matter) can be misleading. Here is an example: If you look at pitchers win record, one would think that Livan Hernandez did great for the Twins. Did he? Is his W-L record better suited to describe his pitching in 2008 than his WPA (-2.33, which means that he actually helped his team lose more than win)? You be the judge.
But calling fraudulent something that one does not understand (and I suspect does not try to take the time to understand), is a little bit medieval IMNSHO
Red Sox Players, Writers and Fans should be walking around, guilty, head held low like a pup who just poop on the rug. What a disaster of an MVP vote.
Justin we know who the real MVP is, tell you what maybe you should not have played all 163 games, you should have slacked like the others, then you’d have been a shoe in, you are a true ironman. All in all you were screwed. The writers should be investigated. What a black eye for baseball. Real fans who know baseball know deep in their hearts Morneau was the clear choice. Clear space for the trophy in 2009.
Justin Morneau is my favorite player in baseball, I am not a homer because I don’t like Joe Mauer that much, and I hate the Twins GM, and I’ve never been a huge Gardy fan.
Justin Morneau did not deserve the MVP, and neither did Pedroia…
But Youkolis meant more to that team than anyone else, and they made the playoffs, and we didn’t.
Len-You screwed up. Morneau carried this club until the final few weeks. There are several more worthy candidates than Pedroia.
The only thing funnier than Jason Bartlett getting an MVP vote is…
Wait, actually.
Nope.
I got nothin’.
HAHAHAHA.
Another interesting thing… Add up the votes.
There were 28 voters, and Pedroia somehow only got 27. I don’t care whether or not you think he deserved the award or not… anyone who says he wasn’t Top 10 is out of their mind.
Must’ve been the same guy who voted for Bartlett. A crazed Rays fan/Red Sox hater.
I don’t know if anyone’s already pointed that out (I didn’t see it when I was skimming the comments), but that’s just ridiculous.
Steve, that is a hoot isn’t it? I think the MVP outcome is merited as is, but I think that could have been said about any of the top four becoming the winner. Kudos to the Twins for having two legitimate MVP candidates. Can’t wait for 2009!
“Must’ve been the same guy who voted for Bartlett. A crazed Rays fan/Red Sox hater.”
Nope. A guy from Dallas. Shows why you shouldn’t jump to conclusions…
Pedroia is a great player however, you might say Fenway is a hitter’s park, just a little bit and the recent article by a Twins blogger showed how the metrodome is not longer the hitter’s park it used to be (probably because the turf is markedly slower). So Pedroia’s numbers are inflated as are Youks. And yes, he’s got a quite bit more protection hitting behind him. So, even LEN III, you got it wrong. Morneau was once again awesome but I will agree he wasn’t as good as he can be so let’s hope he can figure out his late season collapses. I’d love to name him the second Mr. October someday, I’m hoping 2009- 2016
Did Bartlett get a ballot somehow and vote for himself.
jimmy bee, that is a low blow….
Dick Allen is my all-time favorite baseball player.
I’m half-joking, but I worshipped the man when I was a Sox fan…
BC, once again you make this blog into a complete waste of time. To compare Mauer to Harper is laughable.
This was a very weak MVP field. I don’t think anyone deserved to win the award this year…
Now that I’m done laughing:
Harper’s career: .295/.329/.419 OPS+ 102
Mauer’s career: .317/.399/.457 OPS+ 128
In addition, Mauer is the first American League catcher to win the batting title, and he is now the first to win it twice. Also, Brian Harper was one of the worst defensive catchers of his time. Mauer is the best, winning the first of many gold gloves.
Mauer is clearly the MVP of this team.
He was also the American league MVP.
That is a no brainer.
K-Rod gets a first place MVP vote for setting a meaningless record. It just goes to show how bass-ackwards the MVP voting system is. What a way to run a railroad.
1) What moron didn’t give Pedroia ANY vote?
2) If the season had ended September 1, the MVP would have been Carlos Quentin in a landslide. If Morneau had done anything in the final two weeks he would have won the MVP, true enough. The Twins also would have won their division without a playoff game. But he didn’t and they didn’t. That’s why he wasn’t the MVP.
3) Please don’t tell me you gave K-Rod his 4th place vote.
CMathewson -
I have much more respect for you, than you do for me, but that’s fine. I still don’t look at Joe Mauer as the 2nd coming of Christ like so many others here in Minnesota do. While Brian Harper career wise wasn’t as great as Mauer… while he was with the Twins he put up respectable offensive numbers. Mauer is a hell of a defensive catcher, and he’s a top flight slap hitter. At his very best he’s a Wade Boggs/Tony Gwynn kind of hitter.
More likely he’s a Bill Madlock hitter. You know what, the more I look at Bill Madlock’s numbers… Joe Mauer isn’t even Bill Madlock!
http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/madlobi01.shtml
Take Mauer out of the 3 hole and I may learn to have more respect for him, but he isn’t man enough for the 3 hole in a lineup. He’s a leadoff hitter, a number 2 hitter.
Compare his offensive numbers to other number 3 hitters in the league, and he didn’t stand out at all. He didn’t even lead them in BA, or OB% Albert Pujols beat him in both of those, and he did his other job. HE DROVE IN RUNS!!!
I don’t want to hear the crap about who was ahead of him. Gardy shouldn’t have people ahead of him in the lineup. He’s a single’s hitter that takes a lot of walks. That’s a number 1-2 hitter by definition. He can’t pull the ball, doesn’t hit home runs, doesn’t hit an extrodinary amount of doubles (like Boggs and Madlock did)…
Joe Mauer is an opposite field singles hitter and it’s his defense that makes him special. His batting averages are great, but while he won batting titles it doesn’t make him a “better hitter” than Ernie Lombardi, Johnny Bench, Ivan Rodriguez, Roy Campenella, Carlton Fisk, or hell, Jorge Josada or Lance Parrish…
Those guys all drove in runs, or hit for high batting averages. When he drives in 90 runs a season then he belongs in the conversation even in a WEAK year like 2008.
I will stick to my guns. Youkolis should have been the MVP of the league this year.
Jorge Posada
You have got to be kidding me La Velle. Podroia wasn’t even the best player on his own team! If the stats you used to determine an MVP had nothing to do with his importance to his team as Morneau is to his and based it on Podroia’s numbers then how could you possibly not give it to Mauer? A more important position, better stats, won a batting championship (over your MVP pick)and handled a no experienced pitching staff to a playoff. Are you kidding me?? How could that possibly lose out to a second baseman on a team with a 125 mil payroll and complimentary players like Youkolis, Ortiz, Manny, Drew and Veritek.
Morneau’s hitting down the stretch? Who hits behind him? I bet Kubel and whoever happens to be on third base today just strikes fear into pitchers everwhere. 
Think maybe he was pitched around a bit down the stretch?
I can’t believe you have a vote when you make decisions like that. Especially one who sees these players day in and day out.
Looks like to me you just happen to be auditioning for a job at ESPN.
Kevin H says:
November 19th, 2008 at 12:11 am
1) What moron didn’t give Pedroia ANY vote?
2) If the season had ended September 1, the MVP would have been Carlos Quentin in a landslide. If Morneau had done anything in the final two weeks he would have won the MVP, true enough. The Twins also would have won their division without a playoff game. But he didn’t and they didn’t. That’s why he wasn’t the MVP.
Kinsler was the best player in the AL this year. Too bad he got hurt.
cmathewson says:
November 18th, 2008 at 9:56 pm
Now that I’m done laughing:
Harper’s career: .295/.329/.419 OPS+ 102
Mauer’s career: .317/.399/.457 OPS+ 128
In addition, Mauer is the first American League catcher to win the batting title, and he is now the first to win it twice. Also, Brian Harper was one of the worst defensive catchers of his time. Mauer is the best, winning the first of many gold gloves.
he didn’t deserve it or earn it this year and likely never will. if he is given additional gold gloves over his career it’s from name recognition only because he’s not the best fielding catcher in the AL by any stretch of the imagination.
thrylos98 says:
November 18th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
Why did Tony Gwynn never win an MVP?
Same reason that Kirby Puckett did not win an MVP
Tony Gwynn’s best season was in 1994 when he went .394/.454/.568; the unanimous 1st place MVP voter, Jeff Backwell, went .368/.451/.750; I don’t think that there were a lot of arguments back then.
The highest that Gwynn finished was 3rd, in 1984. That season he went .351/.410/.444. The winner was another second baseman, Ryne Sandberg, who went .314/.367/.520.
Arguably, fundamental rate and cumulative statistics meant more back then, since there was not such a thing as advanced statistical analysis, even though SABR was a good 13 years old.
Puckett probably deserved a MVP or 2. He actually hit homers and drove in runs and would put the team on his back if had to.
Gwynn was all average and not much else.
you can’t even compare the 2 really. If Kirby had played 8 more years to match Tony’s 20 years, Kirby’s stats would’ve been so superior it would’ve been laughable. As is, with 8 years less played, Kirby’s stats are very similar to those of Gwynn’s.
LEN:
“By the way, I was the one who gave Aubrey Huff the sixth place vote. Every time I looked up numbers, or asked the Twins to run numbers of league leaders in various categories, Huff was right around Morneau. He quietly had a strong season.”
I knew he had a fabulous season…for a lousy team. That’s the reason I wanted, and now do again, the Twins to go after him. He could DH. I know he’s a lefty, but 30+ HR’s is 30+ HR’s. He’s like Dunn, only he can hit for avg. He’d be like putting Morneau behind Morneau in the line up. I don’t know what his contract situation is, but we should go after him. Let Kuble be the 4th OF and trade Cuddy.
Get Blake, trade for Hardy, trade for Huff. Let Cuddy go.
Span
Casilla
Mauer
Morneau
Huff
Blake
Hardy
Young
Gomez
Kubel, Redmond, Punto, Harris, Buscher to come off the bench.
Tell me That lineup what make opposing teams tremble.
I know that not everyone here would still be here in that case, such as Buscher. I also know that this is easier said than done, but it is, at least, plausible. This lineup COULD exist, if BS makes it so. Lastly, I know it probably willn’t happen, but I can dream can’t I?
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/rumors/teams/Minnesota+Twins/mlb.t.9
How can a team be favored to win it all before trading season is done and rosters are set? IDK, but apparently it can be done. R. Sox favored. Just think of the money you could win if you bet on the Nats. and they actually won.
Aubrey Huff inf/dh
3 years/$20M (2007-09)
signed as a free agent 12/06
07:$4M, 08:$8M, 09:$8M
TK(2) That would cost too much, so it won’t happen especially with the economy the way it is. LOL
he’s not the best fielding catcher in the AL by any stretch of the imagination.
Then who is? And on who’s authority do you make this claim? The burden of proof is on you.
Scouts all over baseball have been calling him the best defensive catcher in the game for the last three years. The only reason why this is his first gold glove is because of Ivan Rodriguez’s name recognition.
Just a heads up, but people claiming they aren’t homers probably should avoid referring to the Twins as “we”. 
Just a heads up, but people claiming they aren’t homers probably should avoid referring to the Twins as “we”.
Hmm. Double post. Looks like there’s still issues.
Dan
after i write this.. please highlight it. copy it.. and past it in your next comment.. then write something about it..
otherwise. i will feel left out… and i hate starting my day that way. i like to be involved..
ha just joking with ya..
So. my question is.. Are the twins going to do ANYTHING?
i noticed Ty Wigginton is probably available..
my guess is if the twins cannot land blake we will make a hard run at wiggy. haha only joking..
so. no word on blake yet..
thats disappointing. even the royals are making moves..
BC, I guess it’s your flip use of the name of my God that puts me in a bad mood when I read your work. I know it’s a popular saying, but it is offensive to me to liken an ordinary baseball player to the God he worships every Sunday.
And don’t get me started with why the media filters out profanity, but it’s perfectly fine for Berriero to take the Lord’s name in vain on the airwaves as he repeatedly trashes a local hero for no good reason.
Nobody compares Joe Mauer to God. Those who accuse his fans of doing so do us a grave disservice and it’s hard for us to take you seriously when you do.
He’s just a very special player. A peek into the history of baseball will tell you that no other catcher has his resume at his age. Most catchers his age are still toiling in AAA. Brian Harper didn’t make his breakthrough until age 28, despite being a very good hitter. By age 28, Mauer will have already eclipsed Harper’s entire career in terms of hits, walks, doubles, home runs, total bases, runs, and RBI. Give Mauer another 10 years at this pace (barring serious injury) and his numbers will be in the top three for catchers all time. In other words, he’s a future HOFer, barring serious injury.
And the fact that he’s a native of St. Paul makes it all the more special. That would put that cities’ hall of famers at three, which rivals a lot of cities in warmer climates around the country. You’d have to be really cynical not to take pride in that as a Minnesotan.
This isn’t directed at anybody in particular…but I can’t believe people are taking the whole “Sweet Baby Jesus” thing seriously.
It’s a nickname, a joke. Even the people who are fans of Mauer that call him that are doing so in jest.
Heck, I think he bares a more striking resemblence to a certain popular Vulcan more than our lord and savior.
I went through some of the players stats last night and I think that Miguel Cabrera’s 2008 numbers were as good as anyone’s. Let’s start a list of players whom should be in the Hall of Fame that aren’t
Here I will start:
Jim Kaat
T Dr Spock books. Uh hum, I mean Dr Spock???
I think it is fair to make arguments against Pedroia, but I think it is going too far to say that there is no way he deserved it. Reminds me of the Yankee fans when Morneau beat out Jeter for MVP.
I will take the obvious: Bert
T: Sensitivity training?
I know this is a blog and we’re supposed to be freewheeling and everything, but I really don’t see a need to offend people. There are a lot of other nicknames that could poke fun of his “giftedness” without offending a percentage of the readers on the site. Besides, it’s just not rhetorically effective to offend your audience, causing them to ignore what you say afterwards. That is how I am inclined to react to people who use that name flippantly. I refuse to desensitize myself to this issue in order to engage in a conversation.
It could be worse: You could call him by the name of The Prophet and have a price on your head.
GCOkemos Andre Dawson
“Walter Johnson says:
November 19th, 2008 at 9:56 am
I think it is fair to make arguments against Pedroia”
He couldn’t even win the batting title so why does he deserve the MVP Award?
GCOkemos Dale Murphy
Fred McGriff, Joe Carter
jimmy bee: Fred Lynn
Dale Murphy was on with Frank Viola on XM175 yesterday…. was good convo, 2 of my childhood heroes.
Matt Williams
Mark McGwire
Pete Rose
Jim Rice, Dick Allen
Alan Trammell
Alan Trammel
Albert (Joe) Belle
Steve Garvey
Thurmon Munson
I always liked Rob Deer’s all or nothing at-bats. I dont care what his numbers say - he was entertaining. And he was good in RBI Baseball.
How about our favorite players from the NES game RBI Baseball (the first one).
I will start:
Tony Armas
Vince Coleman
Rickey Henderson and Vince Coleman
Billy “The Spaceman” Lee
Rock Raines
tony bautista
What was the question?
mighty mouse
olive and popeye
Ron Cey
OMG we have created a monster.
What was the question?
Who is not in the HOF whom should be
My left foot
GCOkemos Dustin “I didn’t get a batting title so they gave me the East Coast media gave me an MVP” Pedroia
my right foot
GCOkemos Dustin “I didn’t get a batting title so the East Coast media gave me an MVP” Pedroia
Derek Jeter getting a Gold Glove tell you anything?
A more interesting question would be who is in the HOF that should not be…
thrylos98 You start!
Don Mattingly
There are a lot of other nicknames that could poke fun of his “giftedness” without offending a percentage of the readers on the site.
I think there’s a fair share of sensitivity training…but then also there needs to be a few people who can develope a sense of humor.
The origins of “Baby Jesus” as I’ve come to understand it was more the detractors coming up with a nickname for how they felt the local fans/media treated Mauer.
You know, it’s basically sacriledge to talk bad about him.
If I let everything offend me that supposedly was intended to do so…I wouldn’t get anywhere in life.
T I think that the nickname “Baby Jesus” is very fitting and quite hillarious and would love to give the individual credit for such a fitting name
jimmy crack corn and i dont care
Catfish Hunter
“A more interesting question would be who is in the HOF that should not be…”
Ozzie Smith unless you have a HOF just for defense.
AND backflips.
The only lock on next years ballot is the greatest leadoff hitter of all time Ricky Henderson. I think Bert might finnally get enough votes next year.
BC of ND If Cuddy’s glove gets a bit better and he forget’s how to hit above a.240 and with his great magic tricks he is a sure fire HOF inductee
Brooks Robinson
No Bert Blyleven?
No Phil Neikro
Does anyone know if Dave Parker is in the HOF because should be?
No Don Mattingly?
Im not sure jimmy bee, but I dont think donny baseball is in the HOF
Mauer was the better choice for AL MVP
ESPN Rob Neyer
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3710934&name=Neyer_Rob
GCOkemos If I had to sit at a table with Rickey Henderson, Reggie Jackson and Steve Garvey I would throw up in my mouth.
Parker isn’t and sorry but his career numbers are not that good.
So who do you guys think was the most improved Twins player this year? My pick is Cassila but i’m not sure if he qualifies because he was still considered a rookie this year right?
Fair enough T.
For the record, I’m his second biggest fan (having lost the argument with Gleeman over who saw him more at Cretin). But I have often been critical of his game. Last year, for example, I publicly criticized him for being too pull happy early in the year. And when he got into bad habits throwing, I pointed out a mechanical flaw (which he later corrected, probably with no help from me). I guess it irritates me that even his biggest fans get lumped into the Pollyannas and become the butt of a joke. In this case, it’s both a straw man and insensitive.
As for having a sense of humor, I’ve often been accused of joking around too much. I just don’t think this particular joke is all that funny. I get it, but it’s just not funny.
Lots of choices on Most Improved: Slowey, Blackburn, Casilla, Buscher. I’d pick Slowey, personally, but there are good arguments for al those guys, and maybe even Kubel as well.
Liriano
If you are comparing performances within the whole organization (minors and majors), I think you could include Span as well.
Yeah, Span would be the obvious choice if he had spent any time int he majors in 2007.
Hey LEN3, I just read on ESPN.com that the Astros are considering trading Ty Wiggington. What are your thoughts on that?
BC of ND Most improved Twin this year.
Span
Kubel
Cassilla
BC of ND How bout most dissapointing Twin this year? My choices are below
Lamb
Everett
Neshek
Cuddy
like it or not, you have to include Punto in a most improved list
Who is the best prepared to start next year if needed:
Swarzak
Duensing
Mulvey
I am sure I am missing someone here…
As far as most improved, I think without a doubt its Span. Just a year ago he was considered a washout by the organization for all intents and purposes and no longer the heir apparent for Hunter. He has gone from that to what many think is potentially a offensive and defensive threat for many years to come.
GCOkemos Who is the best prepared to start next year if needed?
Cuddy??
Span and Casilla improved most. Kubes had a decent year, but not a “break out” one. Biggest disappointment was Bonser, didn’t improve as a starter then never showed he could handle relief.
One more comment on the MVP. In the last month of the season, the groundswell of support on the possibility of Pedroia being an MVP canidate was growing and I, like many baseball fans, thought it was good chatter and an interesting story but wrote it off to a typical east coast biased when it comes to the baseball television media. How do you pick a solid fielding, good offensive second baseman on a team of stars over some of the overwhelming performances by other players in the league. It was good to hear others were being noticed but never should it have been more then an honorable mention in the top five for effort.
For a writer from the midwest to get mixed up in that east coast frenzy and actually vote that way when more important performances were being done elsewhere and even in his own backyard is just lazy journalism.
I have always expected more out of you La ville. That is why I am very disappointed.
Opps, typo… La Velle. A little bit of lazy blog commenting.
I think the biggest disapointment was Boof because i honestly think he’s a way better pitcher than he showed us this year.
Gurrier wasn’t all that great in the 2nd half of the season
Don’t give up on Boof yet. I think with a little change in mindset and a fresh start in his new role as middle relief/set up man that he can still be a very effective pitcher. The tools are there. Relief offers him the chance to just use the couple of pitches that are his strength and not have to rely on the marginal ones. He just has to realize that his starting days are over. Very similar to what Eddie Guardado went through years ago.
Gurrier had his tough spots but that was mostly because he was forced into being what he simply wasn’t. He was never an full time eighth inning guy. He is a very effective sixth and seventh inning person. That may sound like overthinking but there is a big difference in those two spots. I think the team was forced to use him in spots that were not condusive to his abilities. A solid mid ninties fastball can be effective when replacing a tired starter but in the eighth inning, those can flatten out to better hitters in tougher situations. If we can get him back to his previous role he will once again be a valuable relief man.
Does Span count as “most improved Twin”? I thought this was one of his first callups.
It is, but if we include his minor league numbers his performance has greatly improved.
So “Twin” in his case is meant in the organizational sense - not team sense.
Terry D.,
Do you think maybe Boof’s problem is that he really isn’t sure what his role is going to be? He began the year as a starter then got demoted to that long relief/spot starter role (even though he never got any spot starts). He was probably of the mindset to get back into the rotation. I think Boof would be a good middle reliever, maybe even a good closer if he got the chance, but even with all the problems with the 8th inning set-up guys, Boof never seemed to be seriously considered for the role until the very end of the season, then Mijares came on and took over the job. Phil Humber got the spot start(s) down the stretch.
WJ,
Humber’s spot start (instead of Boof) was because he was a starter at the end of the AAA season, so his innings were already stretched out.
Boof had been pitching 1-2 innings for several months, so his innings were NOT stretched out at the time that another starter was required.
That decision was NOT a case of Boof being bypassed because the Twins rated Humber more highly.
Biggest disappointments:
Rincon: Some expected more
Neshek: Just the injury and what it meant for the team
Guerrier; Fell off a cliff after Neshek went down
Boof: Couldn’t hold his own with the small gut
Delmon: High expectations mostly, he did OK for a 22 year old
Oh, and Punto has to be most improved, now that you mentioned it, if only because his 2007 was one of the worst in the history of baseball and 2008 was pretty decent.
Gurrier wasn’t all that great in the 2nd half of the season
Mauer was OK, Rincon could have been better, and Nathan was so-so.
Yes, I would have to say the six blown saves by Nathan was a let down.
We should try and sign KRod to setup Nathan. That would be the nastiest one, two punch to close out a game I will have seen in quite some time
Why is there an ad for Chicago Bulls tickets on a Minnesota sports page? I seriously wonder what the Star-Tribune is thinking sometimes.
Does Minnesota have a NBA team?
cmathewson good point on punto i was going to mention him but the fear of waking the sleeping giant that is the I hate punto lynch mob made me think twice.
A tougher call is who is the Twins rookie of the year and honestly i would have to say Blackburn.
Did I hear the word Punto everyone? Where is Punto? Where did that Punto go?
Rookie of the year. Span or Blackie? I’d give the nod to Span, me thinketh. Span taking over the leadoff spot really fixed a big lineup problem and made alot of us say “Cuddyer who?”.
Maybe Punto for “Comeback Player of the Year”.
Punto was definitely the most improved over 2007 in terms of raw numbers, but if you look at it in terms of player development, then Punto (like Mauer or Morneau who also had much better numbers in 2008) doesn’t count because he had a very solid 2006. Punto should be the comeback player, but one of the “kids” should be the most improved player.
Walter beat me to it. I should stick to one-sentance posts, I guess.
saam,
I cheated with two consecutive posts.
I think Comeback Player should be reserved for someone who was injured or had some kind of disease or mental affliction that affected their play. Giving an “award” to someone primarily because they just plain stunk the previous season like Punto did just doesn’t seem right
November 19th, 2008 at 9:43 am
cmathewson says:
“BC, I guess it’s your flip use of the name of my God that puts me in a bad mood when I read your work”
Dittos to cmathewson. Glad you put your two cents in. just b/c Barrerio has no problems with it, doesnt mean we have to take it. I really hate Barrero’s attitude, columns, blogs, and when he bothers to grace us with it, his politics. At least Reusse chooses to inspire us once in a while. I love everyone over at KFAN otherwise and really missed it after i moved from MN. and am so glad i can tune in on my iPhone now with one of the free applications (before i could only listen through the internet). but on drive hour i turn off Barreiro….
Dan,
Either Puckett or Mike Greenwell should have been MVP over Jose Canseco in 1988. Writers got too caught up in the 40-40 thing.
“I think Comeback Player should be reserved for someone who was injured or had some kind of disease or mental affliction that affected their play. Giving an “award” to someone primarily because they just plain stunk the previous season like Punto did just doesn’t seem right”
Haha, point taken. Although I’m sure some players would tell you that not being in a contract year is a mental affliction.
They should just get rid of the Batting title completely and make players who slap singles all day long into MVP’s. Screw power numbers and RBI’s they are way overrated.
So, I wonder how long we will wait this year to sign someone. I supposed once all the good players are gone we will typically rush to sign the hacks…
I’ll never forget what Willie Mays said about Conseco being the first 40-40 guy. “If i thought it was important i could’ve done it every year” I dont think he was trying to imply that Jose was selfish and only cared about his stats.
BC,
Ha! Good one. Yeah, Willie could’ve done it, lots of other players too. Players were different then. Lots of unwritten rules. I think it was Ted Williams that used to get furious if guys on base tried to steal when he was hitting. Ted was going to drive them in anyway, so why steal?
Nick don’t you worry, we will be very productive in getting Bill Hall over here with the Twin’s. He will be our new 3rd baseman and power hitting DH needed for the future
jimmy bee,
Do you think Bill Smith will try to trade for J.J. Hardy and Melvin will sucker him into taking Hall instead?
jimmy bee,
they could have switched Craig Monroe to 3B last year and have the same results
cmathewson says:
“BC, I guess it’s your flip use of the name of my God that puts me in a bad mood when I read your work”
“Dittos to cmathewson. Glad you put your two cents in. just b/c Barrerio has no problems with it, doesnt mean we have to take it. I really hate Barrero’s attitude, columns, blogs, and when he bothers to grace us with it, his politics. At least Reusse chooses to inspire us once in a while. I love everyone over at KFAN otherwise and really missed it after i moved from MN. and am so glad i can tune in on my iPhone now with one of the free applications (before i could only listen through the internet). but on drive hour i turn off Barreiro….”
cmathewson & Danimals…Thanks for your comments I’m right there with both of you. cmathewson..I’m there with you about drawing a line in the sand with regards to using Jesus’ name carelessly and callously. I’m not easily offended, but that’s a problem with me.
Danimals, I stopped listening to Barriero some time ago for the reasons you stated. I also stopped listening to common man as his schtick just doesn’t doe it for me anymore. I still listen to Hartman some, but he’s not as interesting as he once was. Still like the morning guys, and I love P.A.
Thanks for the input guys!
Mussina retired. I didnt realize how awesome of a year he had. Finally won 20 games.
OMG! THE TIMBERWOLVES WON A GAME!!!
Now that that’s out of the way:
Call Me Stupid says:
“TK(2) That would cost too much, so it won’t happen especially with the economy the way it is. LOL”
How in the world would that cost too much? I know it probably willn’t happen, but it isn’t because of money. The Twins have $14-18 million to spend if need be. Blake will cost them 6-8 million. Huff would cost them 8 mill. And Hardy would cost them $2.65 million. Maximum that would cost us 18.65 million, which would be close enough to our limit to pull off. Another thing you have to factor in is that at least one of our starters, $4-600,000, along with Cuddyer ($6.75 million) would probably be gone. There you go. You’ll still be $6 million or so under budget. Just enough left to sign some no name relievers (which the Twins frequently do). It’s perfect.
Once more for those of you who missed it:
The Wolves won…no. This probably willn’t happen, but it is plausible, and would be awesome. LEN, please pass the idea on.
[Do you think maybe Boof’s problem is that he really isn’t sure what his role is going to be?]
Walter,
I do believe that they conveyed to Boof that he would no longer be considered a starter with this organization. If they didn’t his performance as a starter should have. Whether he accepted it or not is another question. I think you saw it a bit towards the end of the year though in his mindset and preparation for a new role. A full off season will help in that regard if they choose to keep in that role and not package him in a deal for a third baseman. Like I had mentioned, Eddie Guardado had a similar problem after he was tried as a starter and failed. He took a while to accept his role once it was given to him and he learned to relish in it. Boof would be smart to go the same route. He may get his wish and go to an organization that may give him a chance to start but I just think he is better served as a reliever no matter where he go.
As far as this year goes, his head and his arm were not in a position to be sucessful in that role of set up man. His fastball is a bit too flat when he tries to hit 96 and his curve doesn’t always go over for strikes. Not a good combination for a eighth inning guy, *See Guerrier* though I’m not sure that with a little tweaking he couldn’t occationally fill that role. Getting control of his curve, which at times is very good and getting just a little movement and better control on the fastball at around 91 and 92, he could be very effective one time through an order. The cockiness and swagger could go in his favor during those times as well. Closer, probably not.
TK(2)…
With this organization its always about money! They went into this year with an extra 20 mil in their pockets and at the trading deadline it stayed in their pockets. Its always about the money!
All I’m saying is that THE TWINS said that they could spend $70-73 million on the pay roll. It doesn’t mean that they’re going to. Besides, it’s not necessarly ALL about money. You don’t want to get ripped off in a trade, i.e. trading Pierzynski for Liriano, Boof, and Nathan. If other teams asking price is just too high, sometimes you’re stuck.
It is, at least in theory, plausible to do this with This team, This year though.
(P.S. Just for the record, I do know that Polahd is not the most generous of owners).
