Winter meetings update: Oliva, Kaat don’t get in
Posted on December 8th, 2008 – 12:47 PMBy La Velle
Results of the post-1942 balloting by the Veterans Committee for the Hall of Fame have just been announced, and no one reached the 75 percent mark (48 votes) needed for induction.
Ron Santo received 39 votes (60.9 percent) to lead all candidates. Former Twin Jim Kaat was second with 38 votes. Oliva was third with 33 votes.
The rules were changed in this year’s vote after no one reached the 75 percent mark in three previous elections. For background, go here.
Former Yankees and Indians second baseman Joe Gordon, however, was elected to the Hall of Fame on the pre-1943 ballot.
This Veterans Committee thing has come under plenty of scrutiny because IT’S NOT ELECTING ANY PLAYERS! I’m not trying to ignore Gordon’s election….but pre-1943? Twins officials are frustrated because their guys can’t get in until there’s some movement.
Members of the committee who are here - including Joe Morgan - were peppered with questions from reporters about its inability to get candidates into the Hall.
140 Responses to "Winter meetings update: Oliva, Kaat don’t get in"
What are you hearing about the Twins interest in Miguel Tejada??
LaVelle,
Is there any truth to the rumor that the Twins might be interested in getting Tejada from the Atros? We could use him at short or third and the Astros would more than likely pick up part of his 2009 salary. Let us know. Thanks!! Go Twins
How will Nick Punto ever get in?
Kidding aside, I am more likely to be disappointed when Bert doesn’t get in again with the regular voting.
Saw that Rosenthal article mentioning Tejada too. Yikes!
what would it take to get Tajada
Tejada would add a lot of “thunder” to the lineup. I say go for it! Lets put some fear into the White Sox, Tigers, and Indians.
Let’s finally rid ourselves of Mr. “Automatic out” Nick Punto. We need to set our sights higher!
tejada:
13 hr, 63 rbi, .283/.317/.415
hitting in a hitters park these are close to the #’s young had in a pitchers park that nearly everyone thought were so bad.
without his little helpers he is only so-so.
Haven’t heard of interest in Tejada. I must point out that the story never said the Twins were in on Tejada, just that they fit the description of a team that needs help at that position.
Of course, the Twins and Astros could be out playing golf and throw all kinds of names around. 
Tejada was on Steroids, look how his numbers dropped last year.
I don’t want him
what would it take to get Tajada
probably 1 of the Twins’ top ten or twenty prospects and 2-3 lesser prospects.
Sounds like Blake will make a decision about the Dodgers today. I wonder if the Twins will talk with him again if he turns down the Dodgers offer.
gobble,
you have to look at the fact that Tejada is a SS (and much better defensive than average at the position.) Now compare Tejada’s (diminished) production to that of the other potential options the Twins have at SS (Punto, Cabrera, Jack Wilson et. al.) and I bet that you might be liking the deal a little more. If the Twins can swing a Tejada+Wigginton situation, it would be pretty nice.
I am not sure I think that Jim Kaat is a hall of famer.
I love Tony Oliva, but if he’s a hall of famer then Don Mattingly, Bill Madlock, Edgar Martinez, Harold Baines, and Al Oliver should all be hall of famers as well. I don’t mean that as a bad thing because I wouldn’t be upset to see all of them in, but to me the one Twin that belongs in the hall that I hope you voted for LaVelle is Bert Blyleven.
Kaat was a great hitter, a great fielder, and a very consistant pitcher that pitched forever.
Oliva was a great hitter that had an injury ruin his career.
I don’t see the Twins going after Wigginton since he is owed almost 10 mil. or so but Tejada is intresting. I would think his numbers would go up and it would cost less than it would to get Beltre and others. I wonder if Cabera’s price comes down the Twins will look his way.
BC Beneke, you didn’t mention Dick Allen in that group!
[…] Twins Insider – […]
Do the Twins get the Astros 3b and SS every year? Who will we take from they in 2010?
How do you figure his numbers will go up, he hit in Minute Maid Park?
It is much more hitter friendly than the dome especially hitting from the right side of the plate.
LaVelle,
That was a mishap on my part. I’m still in the surreal joy/confussion status with the Wolves today.
Firing Wittman was a no brainer, but keeping McHale on in any way is like removing a lung when the person has colon cancer.
Would Cuddyer, Buscher, Harris and Duensing or another top pitching prospect be enough to acquire Tejada + Wigginton?
Tony Oliva: 220 HR 947 RBI, career OPS+ 131; 8 times All Star, ROY, Twice second in the MVP vote
Kirby Pucket: 207 HR, 1085 RBI, career OPS+ 124; 10 times All Star, Once second in the MVP vote
Richie Ashburn: 29 HR, 586 RBI, career OPS+ 111; 4 times All Star, never finished higher than second in the MVP vote
Puckett was a first ballot writers’ selection whereas Ashburn was a veteran committee selection. Arguably Oliva’s numbers were closer to Kirby’s that Ashburn, but if Ashburn is in Oliva should be as well…
On MLBtraderumors.com, another rumor about Young possibly going to the Phillies for that Donald kid and bullpen help. Donald tore up the AFL.
Jason Donald for Delmon Young, please say no!
make that “higher than 7th in the MVP vote” for Ashburn
Anyone knows who is the agent for Jason Donald? 
Does anyone know much about Donald, how close is he to he bigs and is he legit
Jason Donald and Ryan Madson, Yes
I wonder if Donald would play SS or 3b for the Twins if a deal goes down. I say SS and then let Punto walk and let Buscher and Harris hold 3b until one of the prospects in the minors takes over.
Wally, yes, the have the same agent, too.
Donald is very good with the bat, but not too great in the field. He is 24 and never played an inning above AA. His AA are pretty close to those of Steven Tolleson. Highly touted prospect who has been developing ok.
This is what sickels says:
4) Jason Donald, SS, Grade B-: Still doubt he has the range for shortstop. But I like the bat a lot. Borderline Grade B?
If the Twins trade Delmon for a AA shortstop that becomes a MLB failure, someone in the Twins FO will have to take the bullet for the Garza-Young trade.
I must have spelled something wrong. It says my last comment was up for moderation. I didn’t swear or anything at all today.
Young for Donald?
Should I adopt the Royals or the Brewers then for the new team that will get my merchandise and tickets money?
Sid,
Bill Smith can’t be that bad… trading Garza for a AA ss that is a 65/35 MLB prospect.
sickels on tolleson doesn’t seem like much of a diff?
17) Steven Tolleson, INF, Grade C+: Intriguing player, could rank higher depending on what you want to emphasize.
BC,
“my last comment was up for moderation. I didn’t swear or anything at all today.”
The blog Nazi picked up on what you were thinking.
Be careful.
gobble,
in the eastern league (AA) last year:
Donald (Reading): .307/.391/.497
Tolleson (New Britain): .300/.382/.466
not that much of a difference.
gobble - but we dont have to trade Young to get Tolleson
that trade, by the way, would be a huge mistake.
why am I not hearing Blalock, Uggla, Cantu, Glaus, etc? Why am I only hearing an overrated bp guy in Street, an overrated hitters park 3B in Atkins, and a guy whose never hit above AA that resembles a guy we already have?
I’m sorry to be harsh, but unless I hear some GOOD names thrown out there, BS is the new McHale until he proves me wrong.
Now the Twins are in on Wilson after the Tigers signed all defense, no hit Everett.
Why is Jason Donald a top prospect? I have yet to find a sight that thinks overly high of him as a top prospect. I keep reading “projects to utility player”
I saw his numbers from the AFL, but does anyone know what kind of skills he was supposed to have shown?
and here are their scouting scores from the baseball cube:
Donald:
Power: 79
Speed: 52
Contact: 33
Patience: 58
Tolleson:
Power: 61
Speed: 75
Contact: 52
Patience: 83
medschoolmatt,
The names are not being thrown out there by Bill Smith.
Until a trade is actually completed, he is not the guy to blame for the rumors. (or lack of)
Why is Jason Donald a top prospect?
he is a Boras client
that was the point i was making they seem very equal players so why trade young for what we already have?
young for rollins would be ok!
Wilson’s numbers the past three years don’t really jump out at me. Is he really good with the glove or something?
world out of Pittsburgh is that the Twins are going after Jack Wilson
http://community.post-gazette.com/blogs/pbc/archive/2008/12/08/tigers-will-not-trade-for-wilson.aspx
sane - fair point. i hope he does something though; usually rumors give us some inkling of whats going on though
tolleson seems better than donald with those scores eh?
yeah he is a pretty flashy defensive player, you could probably youtube him
i think of him as like rey ordonez, probably a better hitter than rey though(then again so am I)
my guess is wilson would be cheap in a trade.
that said, so would tolbert, casilla or harris
If they get Wilson I think Punto would finally be gone. No more weak pop ups from him with runners on base and the game on the line.
No Jack Wilson! Why not look at Ty Wigginton of the Astros? Right-handed bat, 20-25 HRs, .330-.350 OBP. Fielding stats at 3rd are better than Buschers and slightly better than Harris. He can also play OF if needed.
do you think if punto isn’t re-signed gardy will resign?
Donald had 14HR and 54RBI in 92 games at AA.
That projects to 25HR and 95RBI over 162 games.
For the all fans who bitch about the Twin’s lack of HR, Donald would be like crack.
Power is his selling point.
But its not enough, IMO.
Wilson is great defensively and has some pop with the bat.
Last year he had an off year (.272/.312/.348) but had some finger injuries (he would fit right in with the rest) in 2007 he hit .296/.350/.440 .
Career against LHP is .282/.340/.417
better than what the Twins had for a while
gobble - perish the thought
wiggy might be more expensive. and of course he should be better than either buscher or harris; butcher is just bad, and harris is out of his natural position (which is SS).
hey it looks like Tigers Set To Sign Adam Everett? so it on mlbtraderumors.com
Why are the Tigers going to sign Adam Everett and not trade for Wilson?
What are the Pirates looking for?
Jack Wilson would be a heck of a lot better then we had last year
If the Twins get Wilson or sign Blake, I would guess that would be the team’s only move besides picking up some reliever off of the scrap heap to challenge for a bullpen spot.
medschool,
Wigginton would actually cost less. Couple million I believe
Why are the Tigers going to sign Adam Everett and not trade for Wilson?
Everett might make $2M next year and Wilson will make $7.25M with a club option for $8.4 in 2010. The Tigers are looking to shed payroll so that’s probably the sticking point.
as long as Jack is cheap, go get him
then if he is cheap, we still have the pieces to get a legit 3B (or if Blake turns down LA, we may have a shot at him then).
id still think we’d need an RBI/power bat and not sure who we could get.
Wiggy is arbitration eligible. He made $4.5 in 2008 so he is due about $6-7 in 2009.
Jon - oh i see 
I meant in a trade though
I think Pittsburgh was wanting a pretty good prospect from the Dodgers for Wilson. I doubt he will come cheap.
evean if the Twins do get Wilson in a trad i wouldn’t mind bring back punto as a utilty guy but not as a starter dont know if Punto would want to come back as a backup
thrylos,
Wilson made $6MM last year, so I imagine he’s making around the same as Wigginton 6-7 this year.
I agree. I would rather have Jack Wilson who you could probably get for peanuts compared to having to give up Delmon Young, or a starting pitcher for.
The Pirates would probably we willing to take Duensing, Bonser and Sosa for him (provided we have Sosa after the Rule 5 draft).
Is Jack Wilson worth 7.25?? Money is better spent on Wiggy if you have to choose between the two.
Punto cannot come back here. Gardy will start him even if he’s not the best option at the position. Plus I’m not paying 2+million for a ‘utility’ guy when we’ve got Tolbert and even Macri (don’t forget him, he was good).
Here is what Pittsburgh wanted for Wilson:
The Pirates, who are discussing Wilson with several teams, wanted Dodgers shortstop Chin-Lung Hu, outfielder Delwyn Young and a third young player, sources say.
( http://www.bucsdugout.com/2008/11/27/674001/rosenthal-dodgers-want-jac )
Dano…
How many utlity guys do we need?
Harris 2b, ss, 3b
Tolbert 2b, ss, 3b
Cuddyer RF, 1B, and in a pinch ss,2b,3b)
Buscher could probably play some 1st if needed
Let’s bring in a real SS, platoon Harris and Buscher at 3rd base, use Tolbert as the late inning guy on Buscher days, and to spell the real SS and Casilla at 2nd
Or sign Hudson and move Casilla over to SS but he’s a type A so we won’t do that.
I think Detroit is the perfect place for Adam Everett. He’ll help the Twins more in Detroit than he ever did when he was on our roster.
Duensing, Bonser +
is way too much. Based on what they were asking from the Dodgers assume one of Tolbert/Tolleson/Plouffe (the Pirates do not have a SS and these guys are probably ahead of Hu) and an outfielder ( Delwyn Young was a never been 27 year old) and someone else
What about Robinson Canu?
Thrylos,
If the Pirates want that much for Wilson… the poor guy will have to wait for free agency to get out of Pittsburgh.
Problem with Cano is yankees think he’s worth his 2007 stats, not 2008. Plus he’s tearing it up in winter ball.
hudson is overrated and too expensive anyway; if you are going to spend that kind of money, spend a few more bucks and sign burrel for the power dh we need then try and trade cuddy for anything they can get to clear payroll
if theyd take plouffe, martin and a low level guy, do it.
BC,
you think that Tolbert, Brock Peterson and someone else is too much?
So who’s on the Veteran committe is it perhaps all former Yankees waiting for Donnie baseball to show up on their ballots?
La Velle:
Dick Allen belongs in the Hall with Bert. Ron Santo doesn’t deserve it.
Regarding Cano, I just want to get an impact player, I think he can be that.
I am tired of the B or C pickup every year. This is going to be a weak division, the economy is effecting other teams, we should be able to get a quality player.
We have the talent, I wish the FO would just go for it.
Thrylos…
I was being sarcastic the 2nd time around.
I am just saying the guys that I offered up weren’t huge on the books for helping in 2009… didn’t have to give up a “MLB starter”
In a way I was just agreeing with you and laughing. Plus I’m half out of it today. Sinus infection, and Randy Wittman is finally gone. I’m just swimming in a surreal haze…
Yeah, way too many guys that are “utility infielders” - i think this confuses Gardy more as to who to play where and when… let’s try to make it easier on him during a game.
Wouldn’t Wiggy play 3B? and Wilson is SS, so really it’s which position is the greater need with what other guys we have: Tolbert, Macri, Harris, Buscher, Casilla…?
Apparently, the Pirates’ talks with Detroit broke off because the Tigers did not want to part with Danny Worth (a SS prospect who is rated below Plouffe at this point)…
do you think matt millen and mcfail are related or at least went to the same class, killing a franchise 101?
Ok now i’m a little shocked at all the Twins connections on the twelve man panel.
The 12-member electorate that will review the Executives ballot includes Hall of Famers Monte Irvin and Harmon Killebrew; former executives Bobby Brown (American League) and John Harrington (Red Sox); current executives Jerry Bell (Twins), Bill DeWitt (Cardinals), Bill Giles (Phillies), David Glass (Royals) and Andy MacPhail (Orioles); and veteran media members Paul Hagen (Philadelphia Daily News), Rick Hummel (St. Louis Post-Dispatch) and Hal McCoy (Dayton Daily News).
LaVelle III…….How about Twins updates at the Winter meetings? Jason Donald for D. Young?
philly.com says phillies are interested in d young: http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/Phillies_interested_in_Twins_Delmon_Young.html
Walter Johnson:
I agree I don’t understand the Ron Santo love affair either.
Everett just signed with the Tigers an $1M, 1 year (plus incentives) contract
I have seen both Plouffe (Crespi HS) and Danny Worth (Pepperdine) play many times and (IMO) Worth should be a much better prospect - now AND later.
Good luck with all that Detroit
If they don’t want to elect Bert to the HOF how about we just nominate his curveball?
I have seen Plouffe play a handful of times… He did nothing for me
sane, (I never saw Worth play) How would you compare him to Tolbert and Tolleson?
which is why i want to trade him while he’s still got decent stock Shawn
Would someone like Mora or Roberts of the Orioles or Guzman or Zimmerman of the Nats be on the Twins’ radar screen. Both teams need some pitching.
Jay,
I would love for the Twins to go after Roberts.
Worth is a much better SS than both.
Tolleson and Tolbert are better at 2B and the comparison are more favorable to them at 2B.
I think Worth will out-hit both of them, but its harder to predict that until they all have MLB at-bats under their belts.
Both Tolbert and Tolleson have had good minor league batting years, so who knows?
But for a defensive shortstop, I like Danny Worth in a runaway.
ugh - harris can outperform wilson although his glove is a bit less flashy, yet he’s ALOT less expensive (both that we have him and that he’s cheap contract wise).
So Beltre is everyones target this Winter to go after for the Twin’s. If we can’t get him who would be next in line that the twin’s should persue
medschoolmatt,
Unless Gardy is fired, Harris is not in the SS picture for the Twins.
You may think so, and I may not think so, but Gardy’s decisions last year speak volumes about what he thinks.
Agree, why trade just to trade or sign some FA just to sign someone when we have comparable minor leaguers for way way less… if it’s not a considerable upgrade, I dont really see the point of spending $6M, $7, or $8M on a guy for the hope they perform at a slightly higher level.. defense aside, if they aren’t a huge boost offensively, why waste the time and money?
sane
say they don’t sign punto, they get a legit 3B either through trade or signing blake; then what? you still think he’ll be stubborn enough to not start harris at ss?
And if we would just stop with this defensive mindset, then we could easily play the guys that we want to and probably be just fine in the field…
Span RF
Casilla SS
Mauer C
Morneau 1B
Cuddyer 3B
Kubel DH
Young LF
Tolbert 2B
Gomez CF
Bench: Harris, Buscher, Redmond, Macri, Pridie?
I wish someone would slap some sense into our stubborn FO and manager.
medschoolmatt,
Yes, I think that Harris will only be the shortstop if the TWO shortstops ahead of him (whomever they may be) are injured within a short time interval.
Shortstop is a defense-first position and Gardy did not like what he saw in Harris’s shortstop play last year.
Mark,
Cuddy’s refusal to play 3rd could be a problem for your lineup.
sane
are you sure? Harris actually looked pretty good at SS and only lost his job because punto came back (and like you think, SS is a ‘defense-first’ position, so Gardy put his favorite nut in its shell at SS).
I dont think Cuddy would have a say if he was told he needed to play 3B if he wanted to play everyday… he may not like it, but that’s not his decision. And if people want his RH bat in the lineup, there aren’t a lot of choices… again, enough with the stubbornness, defense is not being sacrificed here, it maybe even improve with Casilla at his normal position to help with Cuddyer’s limited range at 3B. It’s not that hard folks…
Can anyone explain why Ozzie Smith was such a sure hall of famer and Jim Kaat is not really even close to getting HOF recognition. Kaat has more gold gloves, same amount of world series rings, and Kaat was a better pitcher than Smith was a hitter (Kaat had 283 wins, Smith had a career batting average of .262 and only notable offensive stat is 580 stolen bases (20th all-time))
Smith is in the HOF due to short stop defense and flashy play… though i doubt Omar Vizquel will get in even though he has probably had a stronger player while being a great defensive player.
How often did was Harris used to “rest” Punto after his return?
I believe the answer is NEVER, even though Punto wore down.
I think Everett became the ONLY backup SS at the end.
Matt,
Because Ozzie was a fan favorite, the best defensive SS of all time, more WS appearences, lack of power, but a very big memorable homer… video highlight machine so a product of the era, and because he was a very gracious, and articulate Media darling.
Jim Kaat will be in the hall of fame for his broadcasting one day.
Tommy John deserves to be in the hall of fame more than Kaat as pitchers go.
Sane
yes I get it. but you realize that punto makes pretty much anyone look bad at defense at an infield position saev 1b and catcher. they needed to find a purpose for everett, and also Harris platooned at 3B with buscher for a reason - dont you think Gardy wanted to have Buscher every day? Harris showed up at the position, even though its not his strongest one.
Because we said so
Everett just signed with the Tigers an $1M, 1 year (plus incentives) contract
Talk about a change in approach. Go from having a ton of hitters that can’t field to a guy that can’t hit…but can kinda still field.
Should be fun to watch. A guy at SS that can barely throw across the diamond and a guy at 1B who can barely catch what’s thrown to him.
That is, if Cabrera is still playing 1B next year.
Matt because we said so
I think Tony O could’ve gotten the vote,
but to be brutally honest: all I care about right now is what the Twins do for the 2009 team.
Thank goodness that Gleeman is at least trying to keep Twins fans abreast of what is happening in Vegas. Nobody else seems to be doing it.
Yahoo’s Tim Brown says
“The Los Angeles Dodgers are nearing a contract agreement with third baseman Casey Blake after raising their offer to three years, sources said Monday morning.”
T, What makes you think Everett’s arm hasn’t healed since last year? If his arm is back to normal then the just signed a great defensive SS for peanuts. Potential to be a pretty good deal for the Tigers. If his arm is still hurt, then he won’t contribute much because of exactly what you just said.
T, What makes you think Everett’s arm hasn’t healed since last year? If his arm is back to normal then the just signed a great defensive SS for peanuts. Potential to be a pretty good deal for the Tigers. If his arm is still hurt, then he won’t contribute much because of exactly what you just said.
matt,
I think that 3B is Harris’ (potentially at least) best position because of his strong arm and limited range.
And I think if he settles in at 3B as his only position, he will hit better than last year, also.
Wow. Blake is gone then. He’s probably not worth three years but the Dodgers apparently still have money to burn despite all their dumb contracts in recent years.
A big market team can afford to make a mistake like that, I guess.
So cal twins fan says,
Yeah LaVelle is either too busy eating or gambling.
What did Gleeman say?
Perry,
Maybe signing Blake for three years is NOT A MISTAKE.
Maybe signing Everett for one yr @ $1 million is NOT A MISTAKE.
Just because the Twins think so, doesn’t make it so.
The way the Dodgers sign guys, if they do give Blake 3 years, it probably is a mistake.
its LA - they like to say ‘i beat you’ a lot. congrats on beating a team with less money to throw around than you do LA
sane - fair enough. i want him to be the everyday 3B if we can’t find anyone else via trade. problem is, Gardy will keep starting Buscher, and thats a problem
Shawn,
Andruw Jones and Jason Schmidt say yes, but Manny Ramirez says no.
Brett (& AaronK):
The reason I don’t think Everett’s arm is “back” from last year is that even after all that time he missed in 08 with the Twins for arm problems…it still wasn’t “back” when they reintroduce him to the lineup.
To be completely honest, the Tigers would’ve been better off signing Punto in the long run. Slightly more expensive, but his health is not nearly as big a ? as Everett’s.
matt,
Buscher won’t start against LHP’s unless he improves that skill.
sane - also a fair point, but how often do we face left handers, once a week on average? making harris a ’sure start’ once a week is not good enough for me
With Mauer, Morneau, Span, Kubel and one or two switch-hitters in the lineup, LHP’s are often facing us.
Near the end of last season there was a 7 for 8 game stretch of starting LHP’s.
sid,
you forgot about Juan Pierre…. and trading for Manny was almost free
Sid,
I agree with you. Just because the Twins management says something it sure as heck doesn’t make it right. In fact if Bill Smith says something I am going to tend to think the opposite… his track record hasn’t given him that kind of credibility or respect.
That being said, signing Adam Everett is a mistake. 1) he never could hit even when he was at his best. 2) he is another year older with a laundry list of medical issues that are precursors for even more injuries in the future 3) Detroit hasn’t made many good moves in a while, track record is everything.
a bit more (unfortunately) about the Twins’ situation as SS from Jenifer Langosch of MLB.com:
Minnesota’s interest in Wilson makes sense if the Twins feel as if they will be unable to sign infielder Nick Punto. Signing Punto remains a priority for Minnesota, but the club’s fall back option would be to land a defensive-minded shortstop if Punto signs elsewhere. Wilson would certainly fill that need.
here is the link to the post:
http://hotstove.mlblogs.com/archives/2008/12/the_latest_on_jack_wilson.html
