Making sense of it all
Posted on December 10th, 2008 – 10:46 PMBy La Velle
About 20 hours ago, I was led to believe that there was a chance the Twins could emerge as a third team in this whole Jake Peavy to the Cubs mess. That doesn’t appear to be the case anymore, but the Twins could still have a chance for infielder Mark DeRosa.
It will be an interesting day here Thursday as Padres’ GM Kevin Towers and Cubs GM Jim Hendry try to close this deal.
The Padres remind me a little bit of the Twins last year when they tried to trade Johan Santana. In the end, there was one viable suitor. A full no-trade clause limited what offers were made.
San Diego might be in a tougher spot because Peavy obviously wants to play for the Cubs, the Cubs already have a very good rotation and don’t have to give up more than they want. Reporters for both teams on Wednesday said Towers seemed to be worn down and Hendry rather relaxed. That makes sense.
DeRosa could end up in the Peavy three-way trade, as the Phillies appear to be that third team. But the Cubs could deal DeRosa separately to either the Phillies or Twins. As of this writing, we all expected talks to last into the early morning.
It’s unclear who the Cubs want from the Twins for DeRosa. They need a left-handed hitting outfielder, but I was assured that a request for Jason Kubel had not been made yet. I don’t know if the Twins would deal him, anyway.
What I don’t understand is if the Padres want pitching back and they don’t want to take on Jason Marquis’ $9.875 million salary (the Cubs have to dump salary to make this work) why can’t the Twins step in?
The only reason I can come up with is that the Padres would want Kevin Slowey. They were itching to draft Slowey in 2005 and their draft room apparently went nuts when the Twins took him in the second round. Then Slowey pitched well against them in Petco Park this year. A lot of teams have asked about Slowey this offseason but I sense the Twins draw the line there.
Haven’t heard much more on other trade news, other than Delmon Young remains somewhere on Philly’s radar and there’s a chance the Rockies and Twins could talk again about Garrett Atkins. They aren’t interested in Jorge Cantu and, suddenly, Twins people are telling me there are no-trade problems with Adrian Beltre. He does have a limited no-trade but there were no indications during the season that the Twins were on it.
And I haven’t heard a thing about relief help.
Well there’s one more day left in the winter meetings, but plenty of days left before spring training. It’s not time to be an alarmist but the Twins better do more this offseason than re-sign Nick Punto.
As I write this, the Tigers and Rays are holding a press conference about a Matt Joyce-for-Edwin Jackson trade. And the Mets, Indians and Mariners just pulled off a 12-player deal in which J.J. Putz goes to the Mets. The Mets are building a bullpen!
Man, the team I cover never makes a trade here…..
147 Responses to "Making sense of it all"
The Indians didn’t do all that well… If I am going to give up a young everyday talent- I want something more than a minor league reliever and a guy who couldnt crack Mariner top 10 lists…
It was nice to see Gutierrez and Joyce leave the central in a matter of a few hours. Keep dealing away your young talent teams!!
LOL, go roll the dice and make your own trades. Hard way eight all the way! Bring home the money!
LV3, does the fact they’re not doing anything surprise you at all? Penny pinchers at heart and they don’t want to give anything up. These guys haven’t made a major signing of a free agent since I don’t know when.
What’s the biggest free agent signing the Twins have made since 1991 that wasn’t one of their own players?
Tough gig, LaVelle. Relatively speaking, that is. You can’t get a decent quote from a Twins official unless you’re at an Ag show in Fargo when it’s below zero and the lights go out at 9PM. And you have to report about inaction at the actio-packed winter meetings. Are you willing to relocate?
The Twins absolutely should not trade Slowey. He’s way too talented and cheap on the payroll. Speaking of payroll, why do we not hear anything about the idea of trading Cuddyer instead of Young? Delmon is much cheaper and proven to be much more durable than Cuddy. Think how much money that would free up for the left side of the infield and a reliever. The only advantage Cuddyer really has over Young is that he’s more congenial!
Jimmy-
Why would another team want to overpay on Cuddyer? The fact is they don’t want to and that’s why there is no buzz around trading him. Delmon has the upside and is cheaper and that’s why people want him, not Cuddyer.
Jimmy, I agree on Slowey for next year at least. I extrapolate that logic to Baker, Blackburn, and Liriano as well. Think of Radtke’s first two years, or Boswell’s, or Hughes’ or…
The point: trade them once they blossom, but only if you have to do so to fill another hole or make room for your next perennial All-Star. But ALWAYS get what you think at the time is fair value.
My guidelines would be 70 ML starts, or 1500 ML AB’s before passing a sustained judgment about a player. Keep the pipeline filled, especially with pitching, and especially in the lower minors.
So I’m happy we’re intent on keeping our starting 5 together for now, but why stop there. If we can’t acquire new talent, lets work to keep the talent we have and re-sign a few players. Lock up Baker, lock up Liriano, lock up Slowey. Then think about locking up Mauer again.
I would like to see either J.J. Hardy or Beltre in the mix somehow someway. Why are the Twins/ Pohlad so penny pinchers. They talk about spending more money and have room to do it. What is stopping them. I am not surprised though I wouldn’t be surprised if they just stick with the guys they have and then resign Punto to play everyday SS and then get hosed with signing a reliever somehow. I think the Twins inaction this winter will hurt them next year. I am a die hard Twins fan. Please make an improvement!!
Doing nothing but resigning Punto wouldn’t be all that bad. With a healthy Cuddyer and better years from Young and Gomez, no one named Hernandez or Bonser in the rotation, and a rebound from Guerrier, that adds up to a pretty solid team.
What does everyone expect? The Pohlads are cheap A-S-S-H-O-L-E-S…
Beltre’s the guy. He’s worth Delmon, Perkins, and perhaps Deunsing. We have a glut of outfielders. We have a glut of starting pitchers. We’ve had nothing at 3B since 2004. Beltre hits in baseball’s largest park and puts up very good numbers. He’s a god with the glove. He fits. Then, move Alexi to SS and find a 2B, an easier thing to do than overpaying for a SS.
You have more chance to see action at Alary’s than covering a Twins’ off-season. Enjoy the Vegas scene La Velle.
Thanks for the update, LENIII. It must be rough never being able to break a story since the Twins rarely make a deal, and I’m sure Vegas sucks. Hang in there, dude.
The fact of the matter is, they do not need to make any deals unless they are in their favor. Dy does not need to go anywhere, or any of the MLB pitching depth.
Tell me this, going through line-up to line-up of AL central teams, who has the best 25 everyday line-up; easily the Twins. The Indians could be in the discustion, but their pitching depth does not stack up.
I like the idea of the Twins being able to pull off something for Derosa. He has some pop and can play 3rd, SS as well as 2nd. Lot’s of flexibility.
Wiggy is kind of interesting as well.
“Beltre’s the guy.”
Agreed. 100%
“He’s worth Delmon, Perkins, and perhaps Deunsing.”
That would be such an outrageous steal for the Mariners that it’s not even funny. Are they paying his entire $12MM, picking up the $3MM owed to Lamb, and treating the entire Twins’ organization to a week in the Bahamas in that deal?
“We have a glut of outfielders.”
Doesn’t mean we should be handing them out. We’ve got 5 OFs for 4 spots, because we use an OF as our DH and have no other option there. One injury, and we suddenly need to be very careful. Pridie is considerable I suppose, but he’s hardly something to rely on.
“We have a glut of starting pitchers.”
Agreed. We can afford to deal one or two.
“Beltre hits in baseball’s largest park and puts up very good numbers.”
Actually, the Dome was the toughest park on AL hitters in 2008…
“He’s a god with the glove.”
That’s a bit of an exaggeration, but he’s quite good.
“He fits.”
Given that our current option is Brian Buscher, I think there are beer league softball players who “fit.”
“Then, move Alexi to SS and find a 2B, an easier thing to do than overpaying for a SS.”
Sadly, if we bring on Beltre, I see the Twins bringing back Punto or getting a low-budget middle infield option. They won’t want to spend a ton more money. And if they’re going low-budget, you know Gardy’s gonna do Bill Smith’s laundry and wash his cars for the duration of whatever contract Smith gives to Gardy’s lil’ pal. 
DeRosa is a 34-year-old utility player who had a career year at age 34.
I’m not banking on 21 HR and 87 RBI from him again in 2009… Better than our current options though, agreed.
lala,
giving up one of those guys for one year of beltre would be a terrible trade let alone all three of them.
lets get somebody in the rule 5 draft and then lets see if the Twins can pull of a trade for Beltre or Derosa or JJ but rember it’s early December but right now i’m just think if the Twins can get a good player in the rule 5 and who will we lose you never know the Twins can sign or trade for someone really good i dont blame them on Blake i think he was to old for a 3 year deal and i dont want the Twins to give up to much for a guy like Derosa or even Beltre because they more then likly be with the Twins for one year but right know the r5draft
Hope Bill Smith is enjoying working on his tan because he hasn’t done squat for the team. I love his quote that he is afraid of making a 3 team deal because a 2 team deal is hard enough. What a bufoon, get him out of there before he signs Marty Cordova and Camilio Pascual.
The Twins wouldn’t sign Casey Blake as a free agent but they might be willing to trade valuable talent for Mark DeRosa? 2008 aside, isn’t Casey Blake significantly better than DeRosa?
Chemistry wins! Why is everyone so anxious to make a trade? The chemistry those 4 young pitchers have (w/o Liriano) is going to pay off this year and years to come. Don’t trade any of them. We have plenty of options at 3B..Luke Hughes will be the future and he might be ready, Cuddy, Buscher, etc.. SS is fine with Punto. He will win games with defense and baserunning and if the 2006 Punto hits .295 and not the 2007 3B Punto that had a nightmare season, then he wins even more games. I wish we could get back Bartlett for Young but it is what it is. We need Bonzer or a minor leaguer to step up to fill the 8th inning hole but we have a great team as it sits right now that was one win from the playoffs!
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Why are people still saying the Pohlads are penny pinchers? They spent a good bit to sign Mauer, Morneau, Nathan and Cuddyer. They were willing to take on Beltre and Washburns huge salaries last season and they offered Blake who’s average at best $7 million a year….enough already about the Pohlads. You still have to make smart decisions, the last thing we need is to end up with a Zito like contract.
Ole, they are penny pinchers in comparison to 90% of teams, including rivals like the Sox and Tigers.
I find it startling that people are actually willing to welcome Punto back with open arms. Overlooking his 2007 season, I recall 3 games he single-handedly lost this past season. And considering we missed the postseason by 1 game…
“Man, the team I cover never makes a trade here……”
Too right mate.
It’s true, the Twins don’t usually make a move at the meetings, but it’s also true that, to be a serious contender, they really Need to upgrade someplace. I would award the division to them right now, as is. We might finish 4th in wins (AL) too. And then go 3 and out or 4 and out in the first playoff series.
We Really Should trade Perkins/Blackburn/Humber/Bonser this offseason. Humber/Bonser are out of options, so you might as well either get something for them, or let them have their shot to start. But they can’t do that with 5, established enough, starters in the way. So either trade them, or trade the guys ahead of them. Starting pitching depth is just about the best thing in baseball to have, but you can’t just let it waste away in AA and AAA forever. At some point, you’ve got to let go. The Twins will be fine at starting pitcher, even wtih trading one or two guys away. And we DO have needs. Hording can be fun, but they CANNOT, and NO it’s not over, but they CANNOT go this entire offseason and do nothing (or virtually nothing).
Give us (the fans, and LEN3) something to get excited about.
My advice,
TK(2)
Pohlads are worth over $6 BILLION. Spending a couple extra million is nothing but a tax write off and they are too cheap even to do that. Hell is a perfect place for these cheap clowns… Try getting into heaven with all your money Carl…
This always ends up being the most disappointing time of the offseason for me. I was literally angry last year when I wasted several days refreshing Google Reader every two minutes for the Twins to make a move. The Twins are great at keeping a secret. It seems like whenever a deal does go down, it’s something that had never even been rumored before. Well, except for the Santana deal. When last winter’s trade with the Rays went down, it went down very quickly from the first time a rumor slipped out.
However, if all the Twins do this off-season is watch Nick Punto sign elsewhere, I’ll be quite happy!
Brewers-Yankees deal to include Cameron
The Yankees have found their center fielder for 2009, as they are set to send Melky Cabrera to Milwaukee for veteran outfielder Mike Cameron on Thursday, according to two major league sources. The Yankees have been saying that Cabrera and Brett Gardner would compete for the center field job, but the acquisition of Cameron gives them a veteran presence at the position. (New York Daily News)
I as a Cub fan would be greatly sadden to see Dero go. If he comes to the Twins the fans need to know that there not only getting a great player that can play 3rd, SS, 2nd, 1st Left and Right. He does play them all very well, but you are also getting a great clubhouse leader and an overall good person. Also, he was the Cubs MVP in 2007 and 2008 just for his versatility.
Sure is easy to tell Carl how to spend his money, isn’t it? He’s not the problem, get over it. Detroit finished last in 2008 and the Yankees aren’t going to win it all, even with CC. I like the team as-is, except that we really do need at least one left infielder. A reliever would be nice - but the real issue is we have too many pitchers now! Count them up - 5 starters from last year, plus Nathan, Breslow, Mijares, Crain, Guerrier, Bonser and Humber - that’s 12 pitchers, at least one too many. Gotta TRADE one of them before opening day, or maybe 2. Let’s get something worthwhile.
And to all those asking why not trade Cuddy, it’s because of his contract and age. I’d keep Delmon, but he’s much more marketable than Mike.
“2008 aside, isn’t Casey Blake significantly better than DeRosa?
No.
Career numbers:
Blake .264/.334/.447
DeRosa .279/.348/.422
DeRosa is a year younger, a better fielder, and about 1.5 million dollars cheaper than Blake. They both can play 3b and corner outfield spots- but DeRosa can play 2B, unlike Blake (although Blake can fill at 1B too).
I would say that they are simular players, Blake has more power- DeRosa fits our team better (defense and ability to play 3B and 2B)
Relieved to see no trade of Slowey,Young, Gomez, or Span.
HAVE FUN !!! GO TWINS !!!
I’d prefer the Twins not make any trades this year. DeRosa is older and had a career year. If he returns to average he isn’t a significant upgrade over our current platoon.
The Twins have a great core of players and a solid farm system. Lets let the Tollesons and Tolberts and Vallencias work their way up. It woud be thrilling to have a few years to watch our five young pitchers grow together. Even with the bullpen I’d prefer to bring up Mulvey to work long relief.
Couldn’t agree more Spike. They are bound to improve, and we only missed by one game last year.
HAVE FUN !!! GO TWINS !!!
Lets let the Tollesons and Tolberts and Vallencias work their way up
that is actually a great opinion. I would have no problem if the SS job is won at spring training by one of Tolbert/Harris/Tolleson/Machado/Plouffe. Let them show what they can do.
Wait. Gardy already said that Punto will be his starting SS before he a. signs with the club and b. wins it in ST.
See where the problem is? With that manager you cannot let the kids grow unless the front office forces it down his throat (and still he preferred Livan than Liriano in July) like last year.
I wonder if the other sportswriters make fun of Len3 for not having anything to report on the Twins. If the best we get this off season is De Rosa then that really is sad.
Why would they make any of the trades you have discussed here? Kubel for a DeRosa (a one year rent a player) at 4 times the cost. Absoloutely is stupid. Slowey for any of the players is another just dumb move. Delmon Young for Atkins? give me a break. Maybe the reasons the Twins don’t make trades at the winter meetings is that they are not stupid
its tough to be a twins fan sometimes, and thats usually during the offseason when this inept front office talks alot but acts on very little if anything…we blew it on blake, and now looks like we may do nothing at all- ill just continue to dream and think of what could be, so this is my lineup for 09 opening
span rf
casilla ss
mauer c
morneau 1b
beltre 3b
kubel/cuddyer dh
derosa 2b
young lf
gomez cf
i guesss this is my fantasy lineup–
If I were GM for a day (and that’s what all of us are doing here, isn’t it?), I’d sign Furcal for 4/44, and trade Perkins/Humber/single A prospect for Garrett Atkins.
Trading pitching to the Rockies has the added benefit that it will be harder to look like you lost the trade, since their stats will be elevated.
Why can the Royals be active on the free agent market (Gil Meche, Jose Guillen, possibly Furcal), yet the Twins can’t? The Twins last year spent $56million, after saying all off-season that they had the flexibility to go up to $71. Same thing this year. They need a left side of the infield, why aren’t they even considering making a splash in free agency?
Instead, last year we have Cuddyer for $8million, Lamb for $4million, and Livan for $4million, Punto for $2million.
the best they will do is re-sign punto, gardy can’t figure out how to manage without his little buddy. how could they replace those rbi?
bs is hoping everyone else doesn’t get better and we don’t step back, great plan stand pat with nicky!
Not saying that they were necessarily the correct/smart/prudent moves, but it’s really fun to watch the ChiSox/Tigers/Royals/Indians address needs before and during the winter meetings, while the Twins are maybe in discussions with a club (Cubs) that’s not trading that player, maybe possibly thinking about talking to a couple other teams someday about available impact players (but those clubs are kinda busy, don’t want to bother them), and waiting on pins and needles for the prodigal son Punto to accept the one offer they have made. Oh, and we need to talk with that Reyes guy, too.
Well done lads, well done. Maybe I’ll start having internal discussions with my family about renewing my tickets and think about possibly sending it in someday, maybe. Or maybe not.
mj1,
“front office talks a lot”
When?
Where?
To whom?
What are you talking about?
Our front office wouldn’t say “sh-t”, if they had a mouth full.
Jhawk - I feel you, but you have to realize the Sux/Stripes/Paupers/Natives are not making ‘impact’ moves, they are essentially doing what the Twins did in previous seasons - stop-gaps. Everett as a SS (while cheap, this will not solve their problems); Royals going after Furcal when they already have a good SS? I could go on.
BS is shopping around; nothing wrong with that. Obviously, he could have pulled the trigger - but they were expensive deals; you really want to give up a stud (that’s cheap) from your rotation for a rental player that may or may not make an impact? There are also very few FA’s in the positions of need - yes Furcal at SS is an exception (Blake was too, but not at his age/price/length of contract), Furcal is just way too expensive - turning down 11 mill per year? Please.
Let them take their time. Most of the big guns haven’t even signed yet, and really no super special awesome trades have happened (I wouldn’t have minded Putz, but his ‘closer or bust’ mentality following an injury year and his age make me wish the Mets ‘luck’).
AM,
You would have to be TWO GM’s for a day to make that trade with the Rockies.
You would also have to be the Rockies GM, because the real Rockies GM probably wouldn’t be interested in that offer.
mj1 - saying ’sh*t’ with your mouthful is rude 
let them ‘rest and digest’ before they ‘fight or flight’
nicky had 3 rbi in sept/oct, 93 times at bat, how could we do without that production?
everett had 3 rbi in 11 times at bat.
R.A. Dickey’s a free agent. Do you think we offer him a new minor league deal?
I find some of the comments on this blog stunning. Inept? Glowing about the Royals?
For such an inept franchise, the Twins sure seem to have a lot of success. And boy, the Royals sure are a model franchise — those free-agent signings have yielded considerable success.
The Twins are a conservative organization. They were smart not to give Blake three guaranteed years. They’re also smart not to give up the farm to get somebody like Atkins, who stinks in the field and away from Coors Field.
The FO has certainly made mistakes (not signing Santana to an extension earlier; failing to trade Torii Hunter; weak forays into free agency). But it is a conservative organization, and for good reason — because when aggressive deals don’t work out, like the Young trade, the implications are much more serious.
Criticize the deals all you want, but the FO is far from inept.
medschoolmatt - I would say the ChiSox made serious impact moves getting the Cuban kid, and much more than a bag of balls for Swisher and Vasquez.
The Indians are “closing” in on Wood, dealt from a surplus of OF for a MLB ready 2B (Luis Valbuena) so they can move Cabrera to SS and Peralta to 3B.
The Tigers signed some garbage BUT they also got Laird and Edwin Jackson.
The Royals for whatever reason are collecting OFs and 1Bs but they are talented.
They haven’t all been stop-gap.
I’m content. The Twins almost won the division last year.
They don’t cripple themselves with bad contracts.
They’re consistently above .500.
Why should I complain that they aren’t on espn with the big spenders?
We need to make a push for Ty Wiggington. Honestly, he is the best fit for us of all the players out there. He should be available, because he’s not one of the Astros “core” players. He can hit for a decent average, got some pop in his bat, would have finished 6th in fielding percentage had he qualified .969, and 9th in zone rating had he qualified, he’s only 31, and made only $4.35 million last year (only). Best option available, even if we have to give up a pitcher and good prospect.
HEY Schedule,
Are you talking about that cop bar downtown St. Paul where all the female bartenders wear bikinis and everybody else in the place is a drunk dude who most likely is carrying a gun legally or otherwise? Funny….
Ole, they are penny pinchers in comparison to 90% of teams, including rivals like the Sox and Tigers.
Yeah…that big money sure helped the Tigers last season.
Joe said:
“Pohlads are worth over $6 BILLION.”
They were worth over $6 billion. Seen the market lately?
Lovell said:
“It’s unclear who the Cubs want from the Twins for DeRosa. They need a left-handed hitting outfielder, but I was assured that a request for Jason Kubel had not been made yet.”
That would be great. Let’s do it. Move Young to DH. DeRosa to second Casilla to short.
Personnally I think the twins would be foolish to trade any of their young starters for an infielder over 30. Sure DeRosa is coming of a career year, but if all he could provide is 15-20 HR’s for 1 maybe 2 years is that really worth it.
Please no one tell me he’s a gamer or D upgrade from buscher cause that’s really irrelevant. If were going to make a move for DeRosa it better only include us giving up marginal prospects because that’s all a slightly above average aging infielder warrants. Want we really need a huge right handed bat ala Dunn, Burrell, Kouz, Atkins. Preferably a infielder under 30 That only leaves Aitkins and Kouz and don’t pull the string on bringing one of them in unless you can do it without giving up Liriano, Baker, Slowey, or DY.
I disagree with LaVelle I think the twins can still win the division if all they do is bring back Punto. Sure the BP still has to get back to what it used to be and I think it will as long as they cut Guerrier and Boof stops acting like a baby aboput being in the BP. Boof has all the stuff to be a premier reliever. Crain will be better this year and Mijares rocks.
What does the Pohlads personal wealth have to do with the TwinsTM? Sam Walton was rich too, but Walmart didn’t give away items at a loss.
The argument gets old after 10 years. It’s not going to change.
No way do we part with Kubel.
JDM–I wasn’t complimenting the Royals FA signings. I wouldn’d have signed most of the players they signed. They weren’t great players to begin with, and their team isn’t close to making a run. So wasting good money on free agents for them doesn’t make sense. I was complimenting them for actually being willing to spend the $10million/year it takes to sign a marquee free agent.
Instead, the Twins have waited, and waited until the top free agents are gone, and then signed several cheap/kind of expensive free agents hoping to catch someone good.
The Twins are a good team, with holes. If they have obtainable options like Furcal that they don’t take–especially if they are still coming in $15million below their possible payroll–they will find 2009 like 2008; a good team that is a win or three short of the playoffs. Atkins or Beltre at the trade deadline (or Bonds at any point) would have more than likely meant the playoffs for the Twins last year.
If you’re an 85 win team who signs a 3-4 win player, it can make all the difference. If you are a 70win team who signs one, you are wasting money.
Sid–The reports were the Rox want Slowey and Span for Atkins, which is laughable. But if they want a proven major league starter, Perkins is a trading chip. Even Cuddyer should be considered; they are interested in him. If we send DY for Atkins, I will be disappointed, selling low on him.
Twins, Twins, they’re bad for your heart. You hope for deal, but get only a f*rt!
No it’s not going to change but it would be nice that if Pohlad could sell the team to someone who only concern is winning. Personnally I like Snyder and Cubans approach spend the money it takes to get the guys you want. F the bottom line make your money off your other buisness’s! Make world championships with your sports team. I know you can’t buy championships but imagine how good the twins could be if they signed Manny or would have givin Santana what he wanted (I don’t believe Santana was hell bent on leaving he was hell bent on getting a record breaking contract and he’s way better than CC regardless of what CC did when he got to Milwaukee).
AM -
Would YOU take a deal of Perkins/Cuddyer for Atkins?
what happened to wanting to upgrade at 3rd and at ss….now they are saying that if punto will resign, he will be the starting shortstop….is this what they mean by signing a free agent (punto) and you dont want me to call our f.o. inept…wow…i give up, but come march and april i will be as big a fan as ever, just waiting for the 1st pitch of the year…..i just hope they give us new reasons to be excited….
jama -
I don’t think either Cuban or Snyder has won a championship.
You’re compaing Adam Everett and Nick Punto based on their RBI? Come on. I’m not a huge Punto fan but he’s miles better than Everett.
Look, he’s not the long term answer at SS. But the vitrol Twins fans have for this guy is out of hand. He’s a good D SS who can take a pitch and is going to give you league average offensive production. What’s so wrong with that?
The Rockies want to open up 3B for Stewart. Cuddyer has upside, and going to Coors, he could easily put up a 30HR season there. Perkins is young and has a decent starting season under his belt. They are desperate for SP. Those are two decent pieces for the Rockies. If they get a Twins pitching prospect throw in, I think it makes sense, especially if it is someon nearly ready, like Humber.
Knowing the Twins mentality, they won’t trade Cuddyer. I don’t agree at all, but loyalty is clearly a huge factor in the Twins personnel decisions. Unfortunately, they weren’t loyal enough to Santana to offer a 5th year last year.
I think the real question is how much is the Punto contract offer, and how much would it cost to sign Furcal, and what’s the difference? If it’s less than $8million, that’s insane. There is a very large difference between Furcal and Punto.
good morning everyone
DeRosa …. yawn
I’m tired of hearing how we would have won the WS if only we had re-signed Santana. Santana had the same record (16-7) as Jamie Moyer last year. Kyle Lohse was 15-8. Santana is still very good but I don’t think he was worth $20 million in 2008. He certainly won’t be worth $20 million in 2012.
Pretty disappointing off season for the Twins so far, and at this point it’s probably too late to fix the Twins holes.
Sigh.
Another year of watching below average regulars waste the production of the stars.
whats funny about this is that we have the pieces to make an improvement now and make a run with our young core. too bad that be the time we start spending money we wont be getting anyone one new but rather trying to keep the talent that we have now. morneau almost won his second mvp. think he’s gonna come cheap. what about mauer? already a 2 time batting champ? why does everyone think he should give this organization a home town discount. he certainly doesnt owe them anything. wasting our best players best years. awesome
AM -
So you would trade Garrett Atkins for $16.25 million dollars worth of Michael Cuddyer, Perkins and Humber? You don’t think they could get a better offer than that elsewhere? Or you wouldn’t hold out for someone better than Cuddyer from the Twins? Or better than Perkins or Humber for that matter?
Also - “Unfortunately, they weren’t loyal enough to Santana to offer a 5th year last year.”
Loyalty has NOTHING to do with it. They didn’t feel that giving a pitcher that kind of money for that long is a good baseball decision. And it probably isn’t.
Walter is a DOUCHE
We definately COULD have been a serious contender last year with Santana.
The Twins are just sitting on the payroll room….but why?
They never let Radke leave and he’s only half as good as Santana!
Walter Johnson…
Johan Santana is a box office draw, and he’s not just a power pitcher… he is a fantastic pitcher with power and he will win 15-16 games a year all the way through to 2012. He’s also an anchor for the staff so he can be a mentor, calming force, and slump buster for any rotation.
Is he worth 20 million now? Maybe/maybe not… but when you look at how prices are going up, and getting more and more rediculous… 20 million for a stud lefty in 2012 might be an average contract price.
“Pretty disappointing off season for the Twins so far, and at this point it’s probably too late to fix the Twins holes.”
I’m interested to hear why you feel it is too late to fill the holes. Because they didn’t spend extra money on Casey Blake? Was that the key to winning the World Series or something?
I can’t believe people want to give up three players to acquire Garrett Atkins.
Jama-
Radke was half as good as Santana. That’s why his contracts where half as long and he was paid less than half as much per year. I don’t see your point.
There’s a real high ceiling for Perk if you look at what he did in college and in the minors. He won 12 games last year and he was coming of shoulder surgery. Blackburn on the other hand is just another groundball pitcher nad they’re a dime a dozen.
“Is he worth 20 million now? Maybe/maybe not… but when you look at how prices are going up, and getting more and more rediculous… 20 million for a stud lefty in 2012 might be an average contract price.”
And the chances of Santana being a ’stud’ in 2012 aren’t very good. He’ll be 33 then, and his numbers already dipped last year.
And while Santana may be worth $20 million to the Mets, that doesn’t mean he will be worth $20 million to the Twins. Especially with the kids they have coming up through the system.
But the twins did what they had to do to keep their Ace when it was Radke but when the ace was Santana all the sudden it was about making “good baseball desicions”
Kubel for DeRosa…
I would do it simply because we fill a need as apposed to having a 5 man surplus in the outfield (especially with Pridie in the wings, and Revere and Hicks 2-3 years away.)
Plus Radke is a subpar ace where as Santana is the real deal.
Santana is well worth $20 million to the Twins, just look at the kids who looked up to him. You can’t put a price on the happiness of children. And Torii Hunter’s smile alone was worth the $90 million he got. Who cares if his skills are in decline.
Kubel for DeRosa is highway robbery!
Jama…
are you suggesting race issues?
Pete D–Maybe you are right, that loyalty is the wrong way to describe the Santana decision. But ultimately, the Twins were more loyal to Cuddyer than Santana. They offered Cuddyer 3/24 or 4/35 with the option, well before they had done anything about Santana. This ordering of priorities is ALL WRONG. They offered Santana 4/80, so they obviously felt that he was worth 4 years. We never found out if they considered a fifth year. They knew that Santana wanted at least 5 years. They said they wanted to keep him, but they didn’t make it a priority to keep him. They should have offered a fifth year, and been very vocal about it, making it clear they were making a strong play for their ace, who had won them 2 Cy Youngs. Instead, there are just mutterings that “he really wanted to go to NYC,” when in fact we don’t know what we would have done if the Twins had stepped up.
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t the Mets deal with Santana a 5 year deal with an option for the 6th?
How was Santana on the decline last season. He led the National league in ERA, won his last 10 games(as usual), and struck out over 200 batters?
If we could get Beltre and Derosa without giving up a ton, I think that would be acceptable.
I’ve heard rumors of Humber for Derosa. If we had to kick in a mid-level prospect with Humber for 1 year of Derosa, I’d be okay with that.
As for Beltre, I’d probably max out on dealing Perkins straight up. I might throw in a PTBN if they don’t think Perk is enough. If they think we should give up more than that for 1 year of Beltre they’re insanse.
Finally, picking up these guys would be great because they’ll become Type A free agents at the end of the year. Beltre will have a big year and decline arb, and Derosa might accept but I wouldn’t mind having him for another year. If not, say hello to a bunch more draft picks!
WIGGINGTON! Why can I get no love about this? He is the man we need!
Are the Twins going to do what they usually do and get someone cheap whom none of us have ever heard of (Pittsburgh trade) or get someone old and washed up (DeRosa) or are they just going to sit on there hands and get drunk at the Bellagio.
Santana is maybe the best pitcher in baseball after the All-Star break. Only average before. If his team isn’t out of it by then and manages to get into the playoffs, there again he is only average. To me that isn’t worth $20 million. Why pay that kind of money for someone who will only give you 4 more wins than Perkins and Slowey got in their first full seasons?
I believe the Twins would have made the playoffs with Santana. (Not sure how far they would have gotten though.) Even though he “only” won 16 games, he had several good outings that ended in a ND because of the Mets leaky bullpen.
As for whether the Twins should have resigned him. I think it’s a moot point because I don’t believe he wanted to stay in Minnesota.
“How was Santana on the decline last season. He led the National league in ERA, won his last 10 games(as usual), and struck out over 200 batters?”
Because he went to a pitchers league and threw worse than he had in the previous 5 years with the Twins. I didn’t say he was bad, just that his numbers declined.
For the first time since 2001 he struck out fewer than 1 batter per inning. His walks increased. His WHIP was higher than it had been since 2002. All of this, again, was done in a pitcher’s league. Not a great sign.
Pete D–
If I were the Rockies, and could deal from a glut (3B) to fill an area of wekness in my roster (SP) with possibly 2 starting pitchers, I’d have to consider it. And of the teams out there, who is able to offer up two possible starting pitchers other than the Twins, especially who is looking for a 3B?
From the Twins perspective, they have decent stock of useable, upside SP, (as well as OF) and a shortage of 3B.
This trade makes sense for both teams. They would both field stronger lineups.
The urge to do “something” needs to be tempered. Somethimes the best deal is no deal. What if the Twins had not done the Tampa deal last year? Garza, Liriano, Baker, Slowey, Blackburn, Perkins as our starting choices. Our only hole would have been 3b, with more pitching depth to work trades with.
AM,
I believe Santana’s deal was a straight 6 year extension.
using wins is not an argument. Especially wins for a different team, one with an aweful bullpen.
AM -
Isn’t it possible they didn’t want to give Santana 5 years? And they knew they had some good pitching coming up in the minors, and needed some right handed hitting to balance the lefties of Morneau and Mauer?
I’d say their priorities are in the correct order. They don’t have the resources to pay everyone. So they pay those that don’t have an apparent replacement, and let those that do leave.
AM – In what sense have the Twins failed on the free-agent market this year? By not offering Blake a third year? Please. Remember that there is a HUGE contingent online that would have lambasted the Twins for giving Blake three years. It’s hard for me to argue with any spirit the team’s unwillingness to give him that third year. He’s 36.
The fact is, every infielder on the FA market has a huge question mark. Joe Crede and Rafael Furcal are injury risks. Blake is old. Orlando Cabrera has a bad attitude, etc. That leaves the trade market as the best way to address the situation. Last year the Mariners wanted one of the Twins’ starting pitchers AND a prospect AND they wanted the Twins to take on the full salary. The Rocks, meanwhile, wanted a top starter, Span and a prospect for Atkins.
And if people think that Cuddyer is going to fetch a lot on the trade market, they’re fooling themselves.
The Twins are in contention most years because they rely on their farm system. So they’re being wise not to go overboard when making trades.
AM -
Yet you are giving them two back of the rotation guys, while trying to dump over $16 million in the contract of Michael Cuddyer.
While they may have options at 3rd, Atkins also started 60 games are first, and is only set to make $6-$7 million this year, I would guess. They don’t have to move him, and not for a deal they don’t care for.
SweetOne–
If I have my math right, here is what happened:
Twins had him for 08 at $13.25m, and offered him a 4-year extension of $80, for a total of 5 years, $93million. There were conflicting reports as to whether they were willing to go to a fifth year on the extension, but nothing definite. They offered him money through the 2012 season.
The Mets signed him to a 6-year deal, incuding 2008, which means they signed him through 2013.
If the Twins had tacked on 2013, bringing their offer to $113m, and gone very public about wanting him to stay, I think they would have succeeded.
“I’ve heard rumors of Humber for Derosa.”
That rumor HAS to be bull sh-t!
Totally uneven in every category.
“The Twins are in contention every year, the Twins play slightly above .500 ball, the Twins almost made the playoffs, if they do nothing but resign little Nicky and his yearly average of 25-30 RBI’s, I am content.”
Mediocrity is great. Stand pat Billy Smith! Do nothing. Don’t worry, half the Twins’ fans are quite content with “almosts” and “close” and “good enough” and .500 ball. Actually getting to and winning the WS is so overrated.
88-74 is not .500 ball.
Except for 2007, the Twins play significantly above .500 ball.
2008 .540
2006 .593
2005 .512
2004 .568
2003 .556
2002 .584
Pete D–
It’s correct to say the Twins have replacement pitching on the way. But not Cy Young caliber. That kind of talent just doesn’t come along that often, and the Twins let him get away without a fight.
Prioritizing signing an average corner outfielder over signing the best SP in the league is wrong, in my opinion.
You are probably right that the Rox wouldn’t go for it, but not because they shouldn’t go for it.
JDM–
I agree that the free agent market isn’t stellar. And Furcal is an injury risk, but one I’d take in a heartbeat. Great defender, switch-hitter. He was lpaying at an MVP-level before he got hurt last year.
Standing pat with a young team which will improve with age is good.
Personnel changes are not required, but selective upgrades (if we are sure the changes are ACTUALLY upgrades) is even better.
Making trades ONLY because your fans can’t hold their water (or haven’t renewed their medications) is assinine!
“88-74 is not .500 ball.”
Pardon. I should have said, slightly over .500 ball. Whoo-hoo!
JDM: The “third year” problem with Blake is pure poppycock.
They claim to have offered him $14M for 2, he signed for $16.25M for 3, with a $1.25M buyout in 2012.
So the Twins actually passed on Blake over $2.25M in 2011, and $1.25M in 2012. Those are years 2 and 3 of the new stadium, and that small amount of money would hardly be seriously damaging to the Twins.
They easily could have afforded to offer Blake a third year, and had they been the first team to do so, he would have likely taken less money. If they’d offered 3 at $15 early in the game I bet he’d be a Twin right now.
As I’ve said before, when you look at the money, it’c clear the Twins had no legitimate intention to ever sign Blake. PR fluff only, so people can claim they ‘tried.’
no need to improve this team except signing nicky. we came close last yr and should do that again, that is all we should hope for with the budget they have. just compete and be happy we’re not the royals!
no need to improve this team except LETTING nicky GO
I love Furcal. He’d be a perfect Twin. But I’d need some assurance that he won’t break his back in May. Paying $10 million to a guy on the DL every year is a waste.
As for Santana, I’m not entirely convinced that he would have signed with the Twins, even at $137 m. The Twins’ mistake was in not signing him to an extension the season before the trade.
ggg,
In order to “improve this team” by trade, the Twins have to add more than they have to give up.
If they can sign a FA (or two) who are better than Blake at the same cost, then passing on Blake was the right thing to do.
If, at the start of the season, the Twins have done neither and are still sitting on the money, THEN its a good time to bitch!
I see no reason why the Twins should be willing to give up much of anything to get Mark DeRosa. Brendan Harris is a cheaper alternative who’s 5 years younger, and offers the same versatility as him. I’d give a slight edge to DeRosa in the power/OBP department (last year was an aberration for him), but there’s really not much of a difference between the two players to warrant making the move. There’s no doubt that we need to find a way to make a deal for Kouzmanoff, Atkins, or Beltre (without giving up Delmon). I’d let Punto walk away, and let Casilla, Tolbert and Harris battle for the starting SS/2B positions. Central Division Champs 2010!
Twins selected Jason Jones RHP from Yankees in Rule V.
USAF –
Oh give me a break. Nobody makes millions in contract offers to a guy they don’t really want because that guy might actually sign the deal. I don’t necessarily disagree with your view that a third year wouldn’t have been a big problem, but I’m not going to fault the Twins in this case for being cautious, either. Few teams, even the Indians, were overly eager to give Blake three years.
He would have been an upgrade, yes, but hardly a panacea.
Jason Jones was 13-7, 3.33 at Trenton (AA)
JDM, I don’t think the Twins ever really wanted to re-sign Santana for the money the market was demanding. That’s why they didn’t go 5 years. But they could still say the offered $20M/year. Santana will only be 33 or 34 at the end of his Mets contract. I also think Santana was frustrated as a Twin. He commented in 2007 that his teammates “didn’t want to win as much as he did” afer a loss. I think it was smart for him to get out of Minnesota and smart for the Twins to let him go.
JDM: The Twins offered Blake a contract they knew he wouldn’t sign. Just like with Hunter and Santana. Easy to make an offer you know won’t be accepted.
Again…if the Twins were serious about Blake, he’d be a Twin right now.
USAChief -
If the Twins offered him 1 year, $15 million, he’d be on the team as well. They obviously had a good idea of what they were willing to give him - $14 million over 2 years is a pretty good offer for Blake. In fact, I’m a little surprised he didn’t take it. Surely Blake could make up the difference in pay by signing a 1 year deal in 2 years. Unless he feels, like the Twins seem to, that he will be not worth it in 3 years.
Did Morlan get taken?
[…] III of the Minneapolis Star-Tribune thinks DeRosa could be traded as either part of the Peavy deal, or seperately to either the Twins or […]
Can we get over the Santana and Blake topics? They’re not here, get over it. Does anyone else think that Wiggington would be a GREAT fit for us?
OK, next topic: Why are the Twins not falling all over themselves trying to sign Rafael Furcal?
Kay says:
December 11th, 2008 at 10:50 am
Mediocrity is great. Stand pat Billy Smith! Do nothing. Don’t worry, half the Twins’ fans are quite content with “almosts” and “close” and “good enough” and .500 ball. Actually getting to and winning the WS is so overrated.
Kay~ You should spend time talking about something you actually understand. Or start rooting for those teams that win the World Series every year if you have unsatisfied with the Twins winning seasons. Let’s see, what are those teams that go to the world series every year?
2008
Philadelphia Phillies - Tampa Bay
2007
Boston Red Sox- Colorado Rockies
2006
Saint Louis Cardinals- Detroit Tigers
2005
Chicago White Sox- Houston Astros
2004 Boston Red Sox-Saint Louis Cardinals
2003 Florida Marlins New York Yankees
2002 Anaheim Angels-San Francisco Giants
2001 Arizona Diamondbacks-New York Yankees
Hmmm- it appears there arent that many. Perhaps having a good team every year with a chance to make the playoffs/win a playoff series isn’t so bad.
Pete - you took the words right out of my mouth. Or computer, if you will.
Walter - right you are on Santana’s attitude. however, the Twins DID offer him 4 years at 80 mill, with the final year I think at about 22-23 million. I think that is a good offer to a whiny star in a smaller market. he just didn’t care to stay here. Hunter the same way - his skills warrant 12 mill (which is what they offereD), LA just overpayed (18 Mill!?!?) because they could (I hate the coast teams).
Also with Blake (and this is to everyone) - offering a guy 7 mill per season (which is MORE than he’s EVER made per season) at 34-35 years old is a very generous offer. The fact he is taking less than 6 mill per season just to get that third year (and for the record, it was 3 years at 17.5) shows he’s not confident he’ll be worth that much in that year, so why should the Twins? I am sure if he played well here for 2 years at 14 mill, he would have EASILY surpassed the 3.5 mill difference in that 3rd year in FA (the Twins would have offered him 4-5 easily, even with the young guys coming).
Furcal, when healthy, is a top 10 maybe top 5 or 6 SS, but he wants a longer contract, and he’s a serious injury risk. If he stays healthy, well worth the money, but the Twins don’t sign long contracts, especially when there is a significant risk that they’ll be paying a guy to sit on the DL.
I’m sorry for rehashing the Santana debate.
I’m all for USAChief’s new topic. Why aren’t we pursuing Furcal? Have we ever been mentioned as a possible taker? That would be a nice surprise move by the Twins.
Yesterday there was a nice post of the games played by Furcal every year:
2002-154
2003-155
2004-132
2005-152
2006-156
2007-138
2008-36
Why are we not pursuing Ty Wiggington? The guy would be GREAT for the Twins. He hit .285, 23 HR’s this year in only 386 AB’s. I looked up his fielding, and he would have been 6th in the league in fielding percentage and 9th in zone rating among third baseman, had he qualified with enough starts. The Astros have a surplus of infielders, and he’s only 31 making $4.35 million. This is a better scenario than pretty much any other candidate. Why are we going after DeRosa and not him???? Someone please tell me!!!!
Maybe we should sign Punto and Dunn or Burrell. Trade Kubel for DeRosa(whick I said earlier would be stupid for us to do). Dump Cuddy for what ever we can get(ala the Luis Castillo trade).Then even though the cubs get the beter end of the trade we go into the regular season like this….
1. Span LF
2. Cassilla 2B
3. Mauer C
4. Dunn/Burrell DH
5. Morneau 1B
6. DeRosa 3B
7. Young RF
8. Punto SS
9. Gomez CF
This batting order might not be the best for this group of guys but that’s for Gardy to figure out.
True, that until this year Furcal hadn’t missed much time. But back problems usually don’t go away. I’m not saying he is going to miss a bunch of time this year, but I’m guessing that’s the Twins logic for not pursuing him. That, and the fact that he’s going to command a 4 or 5 year deal, which we just don’t like handing out.
He sounds like a great prospect for the Twins. I wonder why he wasn’t retained by the Yankees. Oh yeah LaVelle don’t forget to go to In N Out Burger in Vegas just off of the strip
Oh please get over yourself Mr. Luke. I didn’t say we should win the WS every year and how condescending of you to think that’s what I was saying. Winning sometime post-TK would be nice. Even getting there would be nice.
My point, and the point of many others here who follow the Twins avidly, including moi, is that some folks are expressing their happiness and contentedness with the Twins being in contention and just being close to the playoffs, or 2nd round of the playoffs, every year. I think they can do better. Their needs are glaring and have been known for some time.
Jake, I agree on Wiggington.That and not signing Punto greatley improves the team at little cost. Let the Phillies aquire Punto and maybe they would give more thought to a trade for Jason Donald.Wiggington at 3B and Donald at SS would be a great improvement.
For what it’s worth, Kay, I’m with you.
It’s not like we’re asking the Twins to bid on CC Sabathia or Mark Texiera.
But for the Twins–$15M under budget last year, $15-20M under budget this year, with a new stadium opening next year–to pretend they can’t afford to play in the tier 2 free agent market is just plain BS.
Kay- Someone who makes this post, “Pardon. I should have said, slightly over .500 ball. Whoo-hoo!” calling someone else condescending is funny. Unfortunatly, the 3rd baseman market and ss markets are thin and the Twins aren’t going to sign someone to appease fans like you who think no free agent signings mean we are content not winning a world series.
why not just trade for peavy. we were willing to give yohan 20 million. 16 million is a bargan for a better pitcher!
I agree w/ the majority of us, that it was better not to trade our young pitchers, but a trade is needed. Just how many average players can we trade for an above average player is the question. But, the reality of the situation is that Pohlad is to cheap to even go out and buy a top notch ss, or 3b. He does that, and no one loses our young pitching staff, and we have a better team, and for what 10 million-12 million. I know it’s not my millions, but damn sure is my hundreds on the line…
Yeah Luke, I think the Twins should fill their glaring holes “just to appease fans like me” because clearly this team has no holes, especially now that we have the skipper’s lil buddy back as our starting SS!
So Punto is going to be our short stop this year.
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do something to upgrade at third base then. PLEASE
2 yr/8 mil. for Punto???? WTF. Tolbert is better than Punto, and for a fourth of the cost. Wow, just when you think it will not get any worse. It is frustrating enough seeing our front office make idiotic moves, but it’s even worse seeing certain fans sticking up for them, and agreeing w/ their moves. Wow!
