Pursuing Wigginton makes sense
Posted on December 14th, 2008 – 4:39 PMBy chad
(Actually this is by La Velle, who is having computer problems)
The Twins left the winter meetings without upgrading at third base, but an interesting option popped up on Friday when the Astros non-tendered third baseman Ty Wigginton.
A well-placed source told me today that Cleveland, San Francisco and Pittsburgh already have expressed interest in Wigginton, with the Reds sniffing around as well. Will the Twins jump into the fray?
It makes a lot of sense that they should.
Wigginton hit .285 last season with 23 homers and 58 RBI in 111 games last season. In addition to third base, he can provide cover at second base and play first base on days Justin Morneau wants to DH (he apparently NEVER wants a day off).
The Twins have admired Wigginton for a few years and made a run at him a couple years ago near the trade deadline. I’ve heard the phrase. “game on,” used to describe him.
When reached on Saturday, Twins GM Bill Smith said, “we are going over the list (of non-tenders) and seeing what’s out there and will meet on Monday.’’
A lot of posters are already screaming that Wigginton should be signed by now. If the Twins indeed haven’t made a call yet, I’d be mildly surprised.
But….
If you’re Wigginton’s agent, you’re going to drum up a market for your guy and get as many teams interested as possible.
Wigginton made $4.35 million last season and stood to get a raise to around $7 million in arbitration before he was non-tendered. Houston tried to trade him last week at the winter meetings, and there are indications that he was nearly dealt to San Francisco. The fact that he was due an arbitration bump likely led to teams backing off of a trade. Now a free agent, they can negotiate with him and not have to give up a player.
It will be interesting to see how much Wigginton gets.
At 31, he’s four years younger than Casey Blake, who signed with the Dodgers for an annual average value (AAV) of just under $5.5 million (not counting the option year or buyout). I’m not an agent or front office expert, but Wigginton must be worth at least $6 million a year and it may take $7 million a year tog get him.
I still think Wigginton presents a great opportunity for the Twins. They can solve their third base problem for a few years with someone who, apparently, is a Twins-type player. They can take their time with getting Danny Valencia to the majors and figure out a position for Luke Hughes.
347 Responses to "Pursuing Wigginton makes sense"
Thanks La Velle, I have warm “summer thoughts” now. I always enjoy your tidbits.
Why not offer the same contract that was offered to Blake & see what happens? 
The Twins have likely already contacted Wiggington’s people. I doubt they’re going to do much to tip their hand in regards to who they’re looking at. Especially after it bit them on the butt with Beltre and his NTC.
That alone makes me think the Twins were VERY close to getting him.
Twins should sign Wigginton and Joe Nelson from Florida for the bullpen. Each would go along way to solving a couple of trouble areas. DY could stay and the bench suddenly would be pretty strong, with Harris, Buscher, Redmon one of the four outfielders and Tolbert. The Twins need to get this done soon.
I’m shocked Gardy hadn’t gone public and announced Tolbert his starting 3rd baseman yet. Twins might as well have 2 utility infielders starting instead of 1.
I have no problem with the Twins offering Wiggy a three-year deal. He’s a very solid player with plenty of pop, and as LaVelle mentioned, very versatile in the field. Hope we get him.
Swoop in. offer 3 yrs 24 million. only 8 million a year, plus he knows hed be played alot more, and not have to be used as a lf like the reds want him as.
Not a chance. The Twins are not that stupid. Wigginton is no upgrade whatsoever. Where do these ideas come from?
If he could be signed for dirt cheap, then you might sign him. But that salary is absurd. You could not possibly watch baseball and say that is a good buy!
3 years $24 million????
You can’t be serious? there is no way he is worth that. This team NEEDS to explore the trade market to see if their outfield surplus bring in a better option.
Jake - solid bench except Buscher most likely hits AAA if we sign Wiggy; no sense keeping him up here since he can’t field a lick, and Tolbert is more versatile in that regard. That said, we’ll see what happens.
And great post by La Velle. So San Fran and Pitt of all teams? I have a feeling he’d rather give a go to a contender. Even if the Reds are interested, my main concern is Cleveland. They Could go nuts and offer him quite a bit, giving them a solid left side with Peralta bouncing back (I know he will, he’s looked good in dominican ball - so has Liriano though :D). We’ll see what happens. I hope we get him.
$8M is a little high. What you should hope for is that the Twins get a little discount for being a real playoff threat.
for a power bat. good average and not to mention a guy who hit 23 hr in 111 games. he came back on fire after his injury, showing he was healthy, plus the added value of being able to move to 1st to give morneau a break. that would be a guy who could push morneau and give the twins a true power rh bat to put between the m&m boys. if YOU dont see that then you arent a true baseball watcher. and the twins have the room and the market will be much higher at the 3rd year of the contract then 8 million a year for a guy who can hit 30 plus hrs and bat .280…
If it takes even a cent over 5M to get Wigginton, the Twins should pass. His fielding sucks terribly bad and the Buscher/Harris combo will put up better numbers offensively other then homer total.
I think if they’re willing to give Punto $4 mil a year then Wigginton is worth at least $8 mil a year
what go get beltre. hm. 12 million a year. i was commenting that the twins would GET him easy for that offer. realistically, a 3 year offer of about 21 to 22 mill should be enough. but it probably will take 7 mill or so a year to get him. and the giants over payed for all of their FA’s this year, you think they wont again? the little bit more money is worth it considering the fact that the twins DONT have to give up player/picks to get him.
hew
are you serious? he’s a solid player, has a great bat. his glove is only a tad behind Harris at 3B, and his average is slightly below Buschers, but his power is way beyond the combination of those two. he’s still young and would make a solid contribution to this team. i do think the 3 years 24 mill is at the high end for him though; I suspect a 2-3 year deal at 7 mill per season with incentives (much like Blakes and he’s the same if not better than blake except for durability but thats another story).
Go twins, get er done
ah your comp is working again La Velle I think 7 mill should get it done, maybe 6.5 the first season on the deal. He will want to come to a contender; I am sure he’s had it up to ‘here’ with the ’stros.
Dan - you’re not serious? what are you and hew smoking because I’d love some right now before my exam tomorrow…
well. i know twins blog and all. but maybe chilly was right. it looks like t.jack has finally matured in to what they need. now get wiggy twins make the state proud! 
dude I just saw - rifle down the field to BWade = awesome stuff. guy is on fire today (helps he’s had time to throw) but he’s been more accurate (a LOT more) and had poise all day.
yeah, get Wiggy and I’ll be singing an early Merry Christmas.
Blake did not want a 2 year contract at 7 mill per year & option year because he IS 35 YEARS OLD. This is probably his last big contact. Wiggy might go for 7 million per year & a 3rd year option because he still will probably get another big contract at 33 or 34.
I was thinking that Buscher would make a good bench bat, not necessarily for his defense. Lefty bat on bench to hit for Punto or others on the bench is needed.
I’d be shocked if the Twins don’t sign him. Bill Smith is constantly frustrated by the asking prices of players such as Beltre, Atkins, etc. If teams want Slowey in exchange for a third baseman, that deal simply shouldn’t happen.
Wigginton’s got a proven bat with respectable power and on-base skills.
He’s got a solid glove at third base. He ranked in the top 10 throughout the Majors in both ZR and RZR, and he only made 3 throwing errors through 652 innings at 3rd base (compare that to 5 for Buscher through 512 innings).
Better arm, more accurate arm, gets to more balls, and can hit for some power from the right side. THIS is the guy the Twins should be willing to overpay for a bit to make sure he’s playing for us… not Punto.
If he signs elsewhere, Smith is on the verge of epically failing this offseason.
Jake - true that; although it’d kinda suck just to keep him for a lefty bat.
hm just looked up Tolbert - he’s a switch hitter
sorry for post count
just looked up more; he hit .300 off lefties and .273 off righties, making him a solid ‘lefty’ bat. can’t you tell i dont wanna keep buscher?
So we sign him, which doesn’t look like a bad move—where do you bat him 6th??
hm another one…
punto is a switch hitter too, and funnily enough he had the exact same averages against lefties and righties as Tolbert last year…(4 mill vs 400 thousand?…)
I’m not saying he’d be a bad signing, but don’t overvalue him. He hit 23 HR in just 386 AB last year, but he’s a right-handed hitter and that left-field porch in Houston is riDICulously close. It’s like a little league park.
Its easier to say this when it isn’t my money but they should jump in and offer him a deal at 8 mil a year and wrap it up right now. No point in losing a guy that can help us by a small ammount. If they don’t land him I can’t help but feel like our 3rd basemen will be a platoon of Buscher/Harris next year and I don’t see how we will contend with that combo again because we sure as hell won’t hit .310 with risp again.
I can’t believe Len III and the fans on this blog. How can you complain about Pohlad being cheap? You guys are tighter than he is and it’s not your money! “Let’s get Wiggy on a 2yr contract at 14 mil with an option for a 3rd.” What crap! We lost Blake to the Dodgers over 3.5 mil spread over 3yrs! Now you want to do the same with Wiggy! 3yrs/21 mil maybe gets him. 3yrs/24 mil and you WILL get him. Why risk losing him over 1 mil a yr? You can’t get a significant player for 1 mil a yr!
And forget about trading for Atkins or Beltre. Colorado and Seatle want Slowey plus others. The Twins are never going to do that. Beltre is a 1 yr rental with a 12 mil salary and we will have to buy out his no trade clause for probably another 3 mil. His agent is Boras - He WILL never resign with the Twins. Forget JJ Hardy. It will take Baker plus others - IT IS NOT HAPPENING!
The Twins are already talking about INTERNAL candidates for the bullpen. They are not adding there.
Wiggy is it - there won’t be any other addition to the team.
Skips
but don’t fret, Cuddy is back and so is Punto! Such a winning combination.
Wiggy and Nelson for the pen and Twins would be favored!!
if no Wiggy, then incentive laden contract for Crede.
Win Twins!
Sign him up…even over pay if they have to…
Zero chance the Twins actually upgrade this roster. They are too cheap and Smith can’t evaluate talent.
Smith is NOT the talent evaluator - never was - never will be.
Blame the Scouting department.
Good point John. Shows how the masses have been conditioned after decades of the Pohlads/Twins incessantly pleading poverty.
Sane
I blame the Vid Games
If they can get a 2 year deal for a decent amount… do it. If it is 3 years, then we should be a little cautious. There is a decent chance Danny Valencia will be a better player than Wiggy two years from now.
Cleveland, SF and Pitt and the Reds
a couple of things in play here:
Wiggy is from San Diego and lives in North Carolina with his family; not sure how much the Giants will be in play because of that.
Cleveland, SF and the Twins are probably the only contenders among the group.
I would venture to guess that it will mostly come down to the contract that is offered ($ and years). Cleveland has probably blown their budget with Wood, so I would not worry much about that but SF could really be the team to beat in this one…
Bill Smith has to go hard after Wigginton and Joe Nelson. We don’t have to give up a draft pick or give up a player for either. We need a hard throwing right hander for the pen and there Nelson is. We need a bigger run producing bat and there Wigginton is. These two players are answers to our prayers. These two moves will vastly improve our team. I also believe that Wigginton’s best years are ahead of him and is much less of a gamble then Casey Blake. From everything that I have read they are both great teammates and lead by example. These two NEED to be Minnesota Twins!!
I’m in complete favor of Wiggy as a FA. I didn’t like the idea of giving up young talent, but dollars? Go for it! I’m comfortable with 3 years as well, 20 mil roughly should get it done. I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again. See how much Daniel Cabrera would cost. He’s got one of the best pure arms in the league, he’s just a headcase.
I’m all for it. I read that he was likely to get near 7 million via arbitration this year. In free agency, he should be able to get at least that. I’m afraid that Drewski’s 3 year 8 million dollar contract, as high as it might seem, isn’t that far off the mark.
Check out Danny Valencia’s numbers in the Arizona Fall League. He just does not give a person a lot of optimism as he was terrible down there facing better pitching.
[…] and Giants are among four teams to express interest in third baseman Ty Wigginton according to La Velle E. Neal III of the Star Tribune. A source with the Pirates characterized the Pirates interest as just being in the “exploratory […]
Wiggy and Nelson for the pen and Twins would be favored!!
that “favored” part never goes far:
The Twins were favored to win the 2006 world series
The Twins were favored to win the division in 2005
that did not take them fat, did it?
That said, Wiggy would be great, but if I were Smith I would worry more about the last spot of the rotation than the pen at this point…
thrylos98 said: “SF could really be the team to beat in this one…”
They certainly have a knack for overspending this year. I’ve also read on other blogs that the Angels might be interested in Wiggy as well - though I’m not sure why.
Let’s sign someone first then get into the lineups!!
thry
you are spot on; SF actually could be a contender this year, and has the money to spend. they scare me
also, the team prefers this underdog mentality; tis why they have done poorly when favored and do well when not favored.
as for the pitching staff - nelson intrigues me, but at what cost? also, the team has a lot of guys under contract or without options. Perkins needs to prove himself in spring training as his ineptitude was one of the reasons we didnt make as big a run as we needed to in september (although I can’t get too mad at a guy that’s our 5th starter…). Humber, Mulvey, Swarzak, Duensing, and even Jones will be gunning for him and I expect a good fight.
Duensing, Humber, Mulvey, Swarzak, and Perkins. How many teams have that many up and coming starters that are or are close to being major league ready? I only included Perkins in the list because Thrylos appears to be worried about him. How many number five starters won 12 games last year? I think our starting pitching is one of our strong points. I like most Twins fans got very tired of seeing Crain, and Guerrier blow lead after lead last year.
medschoolmatt
You got to remember that Perkins (despite how badly he pitched last year), is:
a. a Minnesotan
b. a former Twins #1 draft pick
if he is not traded I fully expect him to be handed the job no matter what happens in spring training…
[…] to look at (or that jump out), both WHYGAVS & Bucs Dugout did. And it seems like the Pirates are in the mix for him. (via MLBTR) I don’t see exactly why… the team has Andy LaRoche at 3rd base, and […]
The bullpen
Crain will improve (he just had surgery, and his fastball still was the fastest on the team) and I think Guerrier will bounce back (let’s hope so). Bonser was starting to get the hang of the set-up role as well and he’s got a great fastball for it. I just dont think he trusts his other pitches like he needs to. But for an inning he can come in and blow his fastball by guys and then mix in his slider/curve and I think he’ll be fine. Mijares was electric and I can see Humber providing some quality innings in long relief. And we can’t forget about Breslow - one of the unsung heroes of last year. Add nathan and it isnt looking so bad (we don’t have to worry about Rincoln anymore…).
Thry
Fair enough, but it seems (with a few exceptions ie Cuddy, Punto, and of course the other starters) the positions seem up for grabs. They pretty much ran the entire rotation through tryout mode last year and picked the best 5 we had. They have also invested a lot into guys like Duensing and Swarzak and I feel if they are electric enough they may have enough to overcome Perkins
That said, the reasons you mentioned (being a fellow Gopher alum) are why I am pulling for Perk (not to mention he’s a lefty, a new papa, and pitches inside).
How can anyone that knows crap about the Twins needs, not be screaming at the Twins to do what ever we need to sign Wiggington !! We go into the off season with our first need a power hitting 3rd baseman and one falls into our lap for no players just $$. I have had season tickets for multiple years and will never buy them again if we don’t get this done.The central divisiion is ours for the takeing.
MY GOD !! DO IT! DO IT! DO IT!
medschoolmatt,
You are spot on with what the Twins are thinking with the bullpen.
They will add Mijares and Humber to what they had last year and roll with it.
er it seemed* not ’seems’ and we invested a lot of resources not ‘guys’..sheesh
They pretty much ran the entire rotation through tryout mode last year and picked the best 5 we had.
Pretty much, until Gardy decided to have a urinating contest (pick synonym) with Liriano last July and have Livan lose 3 games while Liriano was lights out in Rochester…
I like the Wiggy and Nelson possible signings. We wouldn’t have to give up squat AND have some surplus for potential trades prior to the July 31 deadline. Don’t mess around with this one BS–get it done!
The Twins roster as it stands is ~65 mil for next year including the 3 mil owed to Lamb to go away. Using the 2.4 million fans drawn last year and the Twins stated model of using 52 - 54% of revenues for salaries, the max payroll for next year in the dome is ~75 mil. They have ~10 mil to spend. Wiggy would use the bulk of that and based on past Twins spending I wouldn’t expect them to hit 75 mil.
Te projections for 2010 in the new ball park are for a player payroll of ~90 - 100 mil. DON’T expect the Twins to spend more money in advance of the new park. None of us would spend our next years salary this year either.
Thry
…don’t remind me
that said, I really have the feeling Hernandez was a huge part of why the kids pitched as well as they did. Slowey and the gang made several comments on him helping them with their stuff. I think Gardy wanted to keep him around for as long as he could and probably to make sure Liriano was fully ready.
I think the FO needs to have a talk with Gardy and how he picks favorites though…
Nelson wouldn’t even command more than $1MM most likely. I’m all in favor of a $1MM deal with some incentives for Nelson.
I think the FO needs to have a talk with Gardy and how he picks favorites though…
They did. And gave him a 2-year extension…
John
thanks for your comments about the bullpen. i love pitching
also about your payroll estimate - you are right on actually; I had estimated 62 after the ‘blockbuster’ punto resigning (sigh…) and hand’t included 65 for Lamb (another sigh…). I think Wiggy is the last signing we do unless they feel someone like Nelson is worth it; OR they pull some crazy 2 for 1 trade and we end up needing something but I doubt it.
Steve
who do you dump? everyone besides Mijares is under contract or out of options
Nice one medschoolmatt–he was a star today. Sign Wiggy and lets roll
I’m not sure the Twins think Hughes is their 3b of the future otherwise they would not haved moved him to left field next year in AAA!
Thry
I just said favored. No part of winning it ALL.. just favored.
they have plenty of people for the 5th spot. Just need the pen. Nelson and Jones bring about more potential.
Win Twins!!
They pretty much ran the entire rotation through tryout mode last year and picked the best 5 we had.
Pretty much, until Gardy decided to have a urinating contest (pick synonym) with Liriano last July and have Livan lose 3 games while Liriano was lights out in Rochester…
You trying to tell me that they could have used those three wins???
John,
I like using economic models to determine the Twins’ budget for next year, but there a few things in play:
1.only about 1/4 of their revenues come from regular seats at the dome (funny, isn’t it)
2.about another quarter (roughly) comes from corporate suites and MLB merchandise fees.
3.another quarter comes from revenue sharing (income from the rest of the league + payroll luxury taxes)
4.another quarter comes from TV dues.
from the above #4 will be unchanged. Even if we can assume that #1 will stay flat, #2 and #3 will hurt this year because of the economy. I think that the Twins will abandon that formula because even with their current spending, they might have just $1-2 M left to spend based on it. What will probably happen around baseball is starting to see more back-loaded contracts (i.e someone will get a 3 year 21 mil contract that pays 4 mil the first year, 6 mil the second and 11 the third) with the hope that the economy will turn around in a year or two.
Frankly, new stadiums help #1 above, but their target is #2 (corporate suites) and unless the economy recovers fast, it ain’t happening
alright.. lets say we sign wigginton..
thats leaves us with harris and buscher to do what?
is wiggy really that good at defense?
geesh. coming into the offseason i figured we would just move cuddy to 3rd and casilla at short and harris play 2nd.
now i actually hope they go with my plan.
wiggy brings us what?
amazing defense?
move cuddy to 3rd for the short term.
thats leaves us with harris and buscher to do what?
Harris = utility
Buscher = Rochester
Wiggy brings more power in the lineup than any other Twin in 2008
Just what we need: ANOTHER guy who plays multiple positions. Spare me. Commit to Buscher, he’ll get it done in 2009.
thrylos
im just saying.
the twins need to bring in a good young infielder.
ok lets say we sign wiggy.
what happens with the outfield?
I’m wondering why it took 2 Days to report what should have been the obvious blog post Friday evening at the least…
LaVelle’s article today, was mailed in before the Friday non-tender of Wiggy.
LaVelle, I know you were in Vegas taking a few days post winter meetins… but still? This seems like you start with what you offered Blake but you add the third year. If that doesn’t get it done, then you have to consider whether the price it right.
Wiggy has hit 20+ homeruns each of the last 3 years. The only olyer we have that can do that is Morneau. Cuddy has hit 20 once and so has Kubel. No one needs that right handed power more than the Twins and Wiggy is relatively cheap.
How could you not want him?
olyer - What the heck is that! Read player.
Sing along with the new hit single from Bill “Call Me Will” Smith, dropping 12/15:
Big willie style’s all in it
takin’ some-a Carl’s coin
…and we’re…
gettin’ Wiggy wit it
Na na na na na na na nana
Na na na na nana
Gettin’ Wiggy wit it
Na na na na na na na nana
Na na na na nana
Gettin’ Wiggy wit it
Na na na na na na na nana
Na na na na nana
Gettin’ Wiggy wit it
what happens with the outfield?
there are 5 people for 4 positions (DH).
My preference:
Span (LF)/Gomez (CF)/Young (RF)
Kubel (DH)
Try to trade Cuddaver for a warm A body, or use him as a spot DH/RF/1B, if they can’t… (Frankly I’d rather see Pridie or Martin on the bench next year than Cuddy)
I don’t see them trading any of the outfielders. They have 5 guys for 4 spots with the DH. Somebody is usually hurt or in a slump. It’s quality depth. They can rotate them and teach one of them how to use a 1st base mitt to spell Morneau. He needs more rest to avoid the September collapses.
well if i have to choose a trade..
i trade cuddy/boof/blackburn
or a mixture of players. strarting with cuddy. to SEA for Beltre.
i mean.. he is in a contract year.
he will put up similiar numbers, or he will exceed the numbers he usually puts up..
contract years are good!
Wigginton is the perfect fit. He won’t cost us any talent and in all reality we’d be better off letting these young pitchers mature another year and increase their value even more. There really aren’t any pitchers in the minors that are major league ready so I don’t see the rush in trading away Perk or Blacky. If there’s a big market for him (and I bet there will be) you’re going to have to overpay in either years or money. Even though there are some real potential prospects in the minors, I don’t know that anyone is a sure thing. Also, moving Buscher to AAA and let him rack up the numbers down there will make him even better with us or make him very tradeable.
Go get Ty ASAP. Then we’re done.
Sign Wiggy & trade Buscher. Problem solved. Heavens, we COULD have 4 guys hit 20+ homers. Mourneau, Kubel, Cuddyer & Wiggy. There could even be a chance for Young & Mauer. 1927 Yankees live again! Span in CF, GoGo works on his hitting in AAA. Spany, Casillay, Mauery, Morny, Wiggy, Kubely,Cuddy, Youngy & Puntoy. Harrisy & Tolberty 1st off the bench. One of the highest scoring Twins teams in history!
MC kiss my rear end. I have midday deadline for my Sunday motes…..then my computer had virus issues….then - had to fly back to the cribs….then I had to call someone to tell me what’s up….I had to email my blog post in to someone who. Is not in the office today and hipe they find a way ro post…
Even nowim on my blackberry because my computer is screwed up
He’s fat and brittle. No thanks.
uh oh
La Velle - hope your comp gets fixed. keep up the good work (tries to cheer LEN up).
We have a lot of potential for slumps (Span and Gomez) or injury (Kubel and Cuddy) in that list of 5 of/DH.
We should keep all 5. Who cares what our starting linup is on opening day, I am more worried about putting the best team on the field the entire season.
Sorry for the typos….but MC has pissed me off. We have to get hold of someone to tell us what’s up first. That takes awhile sometimes. Travel and computer issues has made this tricky….
And….how in the hell do I I.D. teams interested on Friday?
LaVelle… you do great work. Not trying to dog you. Sorry if I offended. You and Joe have just set the bar high. I was just expecting an update sooner.
[…] Twins Insider – […]
In other words… I couldn’t wait for your next tid-bit. Thanks for keeping us posted.
oh..please disregard my post on your article. i was just kidding with you about Vegas is all!
anywho, most of the teams interested aren’t really interested, more like fishing for a deal. I say Indians, Giants and Twins at the top of the list.
WE NEED GUYS WHO CAN HIT THE BALL OUT OF THE PARK!!! Harris and Buscher DO NOT provide that. 3rd base is not a position you should need to platoon at, especially with those two. Don’t get me wrong, I like Buscher; he just shouldn’t be our everyday 3rd basemen.
Wigginton looks like a great option. In 2006, he hit 24 HR’s and had a .275 avg, with 79 RBIs. He put similar numbers up in 2007 (splitting time between TB and Houston), and last years numbers are great as well. He would be a huge upgrade for the Twins, that would allow them to have a solid infield. Wigginton’s fielding percentage is not amazing (.969); Yet in Koskie’s final year with the Twins he had a FPCT of .963. Wigginton would provide some stability at the corner, along with some much needed power at the corner (Koskie had 25 HRs in 2004). Wait, why did the Twins let Koskie go? Anyway, a Morneau, Casilla, Punto, Wigginton infield looks pretty good to me. Having Harris, Buscher, Tolbert off the bench is even better. Add that onto a deep outfield, an above-average DH, the best catcher in the game, and an amazing starting rotation and you have yourself a “good” team…get some bullpen help and we’ll have a great team.
Who let in the imposter?
La Velle is a professional writer, he dosen’t make typos like that… even on his Blackberry. And he is pretty laid back, not the type to get unglued.
I didn’t expect you to ID the other teams interested on Friday. Just that a player that the has been linked to the Twins as a potential trade target over the past two seasons has recently become a budget-causualty and that you’d expect the Twins to show some form of interest because it would fill a need and not cost them young talen that the Twins have a track record of valueing. That was Friday’s story.
Why is someone posting under my name?
whats the word on scott proctor?
would he help our bullpen?
RyanW
It is me. The first Blackberry post went off the page instead of dropping to a new line. I couldn’t see what I was typing. Yes, I am reserved, but I just watched the Vikings look like studs today and that has me unglued….
Wigginton would be precisely what this team needs. The guy has mad power, is right handed and for a guy with 30 HR potential only to be payed 7 million a year, that’s a heavy bargain.
Hopefully we see the Twins string this together and solve the 3B problem until Danny Valencia comes up.
wait, are you a Bears fan?
“You got to remember that Perkins (despite how badly he pitched last year),”
While not amazing, Glen Perkins did better than most other ‘5′ starters in the league. Any time the 5 starter in your rotation can give you slightly below average numbers over the course of 150 innings, you have a good rotation. In fact, I would assume that Perkins has pretty average numbers for a ‘4′ starter.
So, again, I don’t think that Perkins is a top of the rotation starter, and if you think the Twins can upgrade there, I won’t argue. But I don’t think it is fair to say he pitched poorly last year. Last September? Sure. The whole season? I don’t agree.
Has anyone checked this guys home-road splits last year? It’s almost a .400 gap between them….you think playing in MinuteMaid might have helped his numbers a tad? I’m not against signing the guy but lets keep expectations in check.
funny, a couple years ago no one figured baker would be a top of the rotation guy.
perkins (was a rookie last year)
won 12 games
had a long unbeaten streak
sure he finished the season poorly.
but look at how many innings the kid threw.
funny how some fans think perkins is not a top of the rotation guy.
heck.. might as well cut him loose and let him pitch for a different team.
id hate to keep a 12win rookie on our staff
MH
such a terrible problem to have eh?
Wigginton aint hitting 30 bombs if his home is the dome.
I promise we will not get him. We will underbid and lose out again. Merry Christmas…
The Dude says:
December 14th, 2008 at 8:57 pm
Wigginton aint hitting 30 bombs if his home is the dome.
neither are you but let’s not get into symantics…
medschool
yeah.. fans need to give perkins a break
he will be fine.
he is a lefty. you dont just get rid of a 12 win rookie left hander.
i think kenny rogers when i see perkins
For those of you who are worried about Wigginton’s numbers being a fluke caused by the dimensions of the stadium in Houston, you DO realize he also hit 16HR in a partial season in Tampa in 07, as well as 24 HRs in Tampa in 06.
He’s got fairly solid career numbers .270/.330/.460. His OBP is slightly below average, but with this team we got plenty of guys to get on base, we just need a guy who can knock them in. his 113 strikeouts in 07 is a little curious. If he repeats that with Gomez and Young striking out over a 100 times again that will put a little bit of a dent in teh Twins offense.
Ive said it before and I still believe it. This is where Smith and the Twins either back up their words or prove to the fans that they’re all talk. They said going in to the offseason that they were going to go get a RH hitter with power to fill either SS or 3B.
There is absolutely no excuse for being outbid on Wigginton. None. They said they were serious about filling that 3B need. Prove it… or just shut the heck up for all time because you will have lost any shred of credibility with your fan base.
The guy who got mad was actually La Velle? If that was i respect him even more. Most posters are posers and will say what they say and not get back into it or defend their points. If that was La Velle then i applaud him, the one blogger who has the balls to defend what he posts!
Hope they get him. That would really help to fill out our infield!
he’s also a blogger that actually responds to the posters, which is more than I can say for other blogs…
He does make sense, but so did Casey Blake. I see the Giants as the real competition for his services. Cleveland and Pittsburgh do not currently have the payroll flexability to make it happen. Also, the tribe has Peralta playing mostly at 3b in the Dominican winter league.
I believe most of you are over shooting his value. It is more in the 5-6 mil per year range, with 2 years likely to get it done.
If they do sign him, who gets dropped from the 40 man?
La Velle,
you got to ignore these guys…
extinction…
they feed on attention.
And if they got it, they would realize that your job is not to run a rumor mill site but to report what’s happening…
And there ain’t much happening.
Again, folks, and I have made the same comment in Howard’s blog about half a year ago, you should feel very privileged that your team’s home town newspaper has 3 active online blogs that allow no holds barred access to comments. Try to place a comment in a major newspaper associated with another MLB, or read the commentary there, if you don’t believe me… (heck try to do it in the one across the river). La Velle, Joe and Howard (reverse alphabetical order) have some of the best online blogs and Strib has been a wonderfully open mind forum with these blogs. Try to see how many (moderated/edited/adjusted) comments the New York or Boston papers receive a day.
We all got a more than a good thing going on here, don’t screw it up!
and heck, I disagree with La Velle on many things (see Gardy extension post, for the latest example), but one has to understand and realize that you cannot find a lot of privately-sponsored forums (yes the Stib is paying for any character one types here) that allow that much freedom of expression…
So please, put things into perspective and grow up…
TheDude
Who cares about one year? his career home road splits look fine, only .010 difference in avg., and around .050 differences in OBP and slugging percentage. Also a 15HR difference, tho most of those turned into doubles on the road.
It’s all about sample size my friend, his career stats give a far more accurate glimpse of what type of player he is. He only played in Houston 1 + years, and he’s manaaged to hit fine in Tampa and with the Mets…so I HIGHLY doubt the stadium in Houston makes a world of difference
The problem with Wiggington being free to sign with anybody, is that the Twins can’t say that Houston wanted too much in a trade. I’m sure it will end up being that he wanted too much per year,or that he wanted a longer contract than the Twins were willing to give. One way or another Twins fans should get ready for an excuse, and not a signing. I hope I’m wrong, but I wont believe it until I see it.
“Wigginton aint hitting 30 bombs if his home is the dome.
neither are you but let’s not get into symantics…”
Ummmmm…OK. Good one. I really hope youre not going to med school with brain function like that.
We’re really using WINS as a measure of Perkins’ ability? Wins mean nothing. At all. Livan had 10 wins for us in half the time… should we have kept him around?
His September skewed his numbers a bit, but he was never all that good. Pre-ASB, opponents hit .301 off him. Post-ASB, opponents hit… .301 off him.
He gives up too many hits for his own good, and he was on a pace to give up 34 HR if he pitched 200 innings.
Couple that with his injury problems and I see no reason to become attached to Perkins, or to think that Humber, Duensing, or Swarzak couldn’t be equally as good.
There’s just no logic in stockpiling young arms like the Twins do. It’s good to have depth and reserves in case of injuries, but the Twins have more pitchers and OFs than they know what to do with. Some of those should be used to upgrade and put a serious playoff threat on the field.
Wigginton isn’t hitting 30 bombs anywhere…but he might hit 25, and even that would help.
dude and asita
when did you become psychics?
Wigginton put up similar numbers in Tampa.
Granted, they’ve got a short distance straight down the line there as well, but it juts out sharply from there and is comparable to the Dome in terms of hitting, I’d say.
Well, at least more so than Minute Maid.
Just out of curiosity…what do most people consider the “max” that would be reasonable before it’d be best to let Wiggington go elsewhere?
I was willing to accept 7 mill across two years for Blake. Wiggington’s youth alone make him far more valuable…all else being equal.
I’d say a good starting point would be “The Blake Contract”… 3 years at 7 mill. He’ll likely want more.
My ceiling would be no more than 9 million a year. I think 10 million is starting to get a bit high for him.
Wins mean nothing at all? I believe the standings are based on wins. Not ERA or WHIP or OPS or BA or OBP. What an odd statement. It’s wins not stats that make champs.
I should add: I think 4 years at 9 million would be the ceiling. I’d through in a limited NTC to make it more enticing for Wiggy while not closing the door to trade him elsewhere should somebody turn up in the minors or in another trade at a later date.
medschoolmatt
not a psychic, a historian. Wigginton’s career numbers tell the tale. He’ll hit a home run somewhere between once every 18-24 At Bats. There just aren’t enough at bats for him to hit 30 home runs, barring a career year. Wich, at 31 is possible, but not likely.
“Wins mean nothing at all? ”
When looking at starting pitchers? Correct.
steve from fridley
livan has been that way his entire career.
so that is what was expected of him.
anyone who thought he would do anything else other then eat innings has there expectations to high.
alot of fans give up on players to early.. people want it all right now.. they have way to high of expectations.
im surprised we still have morneau after that season in which he got hit in the helmet and batted in the .200?
funny that casilla still on the team after he stunk it up his first few seasons.
same with cuddy/kubel. why didnt we get rid of them years ago.
atleast we cleaned house and got johan out of here. fans were really hating a stud lefty who cant win a cy young in 3 straight seasons. instead he only got 3 of 3.. bummer
John
Hernandez had 10 wins…
I think he was referring to wins counting for something like that
Wins are a team thing - a player could have had lots of run support. guys like blackburn should have had more wins (lost 1-0 twice…) whereas hernandez and perk got gobs of runs
Wins mean nothing at all? I believe the standings are based on wins.
Here we go again…
The “Win” statistic is the absolute worst stat for measuring the performance of any single player.
Example:
Pitcher A gives up one run in each of his 25 starts in a season. He doesn’t win a single one.
Pitcher B gives up 6 runs in each of his 25 starts in a season. He wins all of them.
Which pitcher is better?
John
Wins mean nothing at all as far as judging a pitcher’s performance. Overall, they mean a great deal, just not in regards to pitchers, there are so many other factors that go into a win.
T — I’ll go with pitcher B. He’s obviously got one heck of a lucky charm!!
Asita - fair enough.
although…say its a HR every 20 at bats and he gets 600 AB’s…hm how many is that?
T, I’ve given that question some thought, too. I’d have to go back and take a thorough look at what they’re payroll situation is right now.
The Twins have, in past years I believe, claimed they are willing to spend 52% of revenue on player salaries and I’m sure I’ve read sources that place that figure at somewhere just north of $70 million. That’s way above last season’s numbers and, even with arbitration raises coming to Kubel and Guerrier, there’s a ton of room right now.
I guess my answer is this… I don’t see a limit in dollars. Would 10mm be overpaying? yes… but this team has a glaring need and sometimes you overpay to meet a need. I’m more likely to put a reasonable limit on years. I would not go four guaranteed years on Wigginton. 3 plus an option would be my limit. If another team will go 4 guaranteed years, I won’t complain too loudly if the Twins don’t.
in 17 of his 26 starts.. perkins pitched 6+ innings..
hows that for a stat..
Jim
If Guerrier gets a raise after last year’s performance I don’t know what to say…
matt,
Of course wins aren’t the only thing, but in general bloggers worship stats to an extreme. Players have good years, average years and bad years. A teams win total depends on how many players can put together their good years at the same time. If it was as easy as picking the players with the best stats, a child could do it or a computer. But it isn’t that easy or predictable, which is why baseball is such a fascinating game.
obviously its pitcher B
he knows what days to pitch on.
ill take a guy that wins over a guy that loses any day.
wins get you paid..
just ask silva
now… if you want pitcher A who loses all the time
ill take pitcher B and win a world series
obviously pitcher B does what it takes to get a Win
medschoolmatt
touche, but given that Wigginton has never gotten to 600 AB, and only one player on the Twins managed to get to 600AB last season, I doubt it will happen.
Trade Thrylos98!
T
I’ll also take the pitcher who won 25 games and got me to the playoffs!
MH:
BAM! point proven… good job.
I think the real question is, given your choice of those two pitchers, which would you choose to start the following season with?
I’ll take my chances with the pitcher who has demonstrated the ability to hold teams to 1 run consistently and trust my offense to do a better job of scoring for him.
But that’s just me.
I guess there are people who like stats and people who like wins.
“Wins mean nothing at all?”
That’s what I said. Yes.
“I believe the standings are based on wins.”
Sounds like you’ve done your homework on that one. Nice work.
“Not ERA or WHIP or OPS or BA or OBP.”
Very true.
“What an odd statement. It’s wins not stats that make champs.”
Not true. In measuring the success of a pitcher, I’ll take the guy who can actually get hitters out and gives my team a chance to win the game.
Wins don’t tell you anything about a pitcher’s overall performance. Do you really think Perkins was better than Baker this year?
John,
I hope your joking. What happens when in the palyoffs when Pitcher B gives his usual 6 runs, and then the offense gets stifled by the other teams pitcher? A pitcher with gives up a lot of runs but has a high number of wins is an anomoly. Eventually their numbers will catch up with them, and the offense won’t be able to make up for their terrible performance. It took Livan half a year here, but it happened. The same will always be true for any pitcher that gives up runs.
To everybody picking pitcher B, I forgot to mention that while Pitcher B got the regular lineup…Pitcher A usually pitched on “days off” which meant he had the following lineup.
Casilla 2B
Punto 3B
Redmond C
Kubel RF
Young LF
Buscher DH
Harris 1B
Tolbert SS
Gomez CF
I guess there are people who like stats and people who like wins.
Unfortunately people who like wins typically forget the fact that a single Win is the result of EVERY OTHER STAT IN THE GAME lining up to produce the end result.
the fact is this
WINS are what matters.
of johan goes 0-20 with a 1.00 era
and perkins goes 20-0 with a 6.00 era
id rather have perkins..
you guys can have your 20 losses.. ill take the 20 wins.
id rather have perkins.
Congrats, Perkins just lost Game 7 of the World Series 6-1 against Santana.
Pittcher A has great stats, but he loses every time. Pitchers have to pitch every 5th day and win the majority of their starts whether their team produces for them or not or whether they have their best stuff or not. That’s life. Stats aren’t everything.
$6mil per for 3 yrs TOPS! Hopefully you can trade him in yr 3 and Valencia or Hughes is ready. Not the worst option but $8 mil is too much IMO.
In the most basic sense, yes, wins matter.
Santana at 0-20 with a 1.00 ERA is still a better pitcher than Perkins at 20-0 with a 6.00 ERA is the point.
Arguing otherwise really doesn’t make any sense…
I can’t believe this debate. After the wins have happened the prior year, all we’re concerned about is what is likely to bring the most wins in the upcoming year. And you people are honestly saying you’ll put a 20-0 pitcher with a 6.00 in your rotation over a guy who had the misfortune of going 0-20 while limiting teams to 1 earned run per 9 innings?
Expecting that sort of fortune (or misfortune) to extend through a second consecutive season is insane.
T,
He also probably lost Game 1 and Game 4 in that case. Any predictions on the score of those games?
Santana’s team did not make the playoffs because he lost 20 games.
Pitchers have to pitch every 5th day and win the majority of their starts whether their team produces for them or not
Except that no matter how good a pitcher is…a team can’t win a baseball game without scoring a run.
Apparently making the playoffs requires 142 wins now.
He also probably lost Game 1 and Game 4 in that case. Any predictions on the score of those games?
6-1 and 6-1. It was one of those bizarre statistical oddities caused by the Mets Manager putting player numbers 4, 8, 15, 16, 23, and 42 in the first 5 spots of his lineup.
Santana’s team did not make the playoffs because he lost 20 games.
Since this situation is strictly hypothetical…I’m going to go ahead and say the rest of the rotation picked it up for him.
The only reason he was asked to pitch three games in the World Series was due to some poor scheduling and weather issues that screwed up both teams rotations (Why else would Perkins be the Twins ace?)
Bill Smith Put Up or Shut Up
Sign Wiggington NOW
Apparently making the playoffs requires 142 wins now.
And Joe Giradi would be fired for missing the playoffs with 141.
The point is that stats aren’t the only thing involved in baseball or the best team would win every year and that’s clearly not the case.
John, the best team does win every year…that’s why they’re the best.
The only problem is there isn’t any single stat that can be used to best determine which team in a given year is the best.
And if Wins were the best measure, then you’d have to go ahead and explain who the two “best” teams in baseball last year (Cubs and Angels) were both knocked out in the first round.
Or how the best team in football in 2008 (Patriots) didn’t win the Super Bowl.
In fact, 2008 was a pretty bad year for the best teams in each sport (well, except the Celtics)
Stats are a good indicator for regular season sucess, but as for the playoffs, they are a crap shoot. best fo 5 or best of 7 is too small a sample size for the best statistical team to win a high percentage of the time. So Stats matter, but does luck and other intangibles.
The Cubs and Angels had great stats, but stuff happens. The Twins in 87 and the Cards just recently were the best with 85 wins and crummy stats - but they won any way. How can that be with lousy stats!
John,
Outliers
So John, is it safe to assume that at this point in the conversation you have now completely done a 180 on your “Wins are the only stat that matters” argument?
Thyros says:
You got to remember that Perkins (despite how badly he pitched last year)
I know u said that 3 hours ago, but when i came across it, i just couldn’t believe it. Perkins was 12-4 last year. All other stats be thrown out the window, he put his team in a position to win. I don’t understand the Anti-Perkins band wagon at all.
Wigginton’s highest RBI total in a season is just 79.
There’s a reason the Astros non-tendered him.
I hope by “all other stats” you’re including wins.
Two pitchers put up identical stats in a season.
Pitcher A goes 20-0.
Pitcher B goes 0-20.
Which one do you take?
Answer is: “Forget the pitcher, take the lineup behind pitcher A.”
“I don’t understand the Anti-Perkins band wagon at all.”
Neither do I! The guy gets good results on the field.
Blaine: “RBIs” is a statistic of opportunity. It’s not as bad as using “Wins”…but I’d be interested in seeing the stats of the guys that were hitting ahead of him.
Asita is getting close. Stats aren’t the only thing. Luck, spirit, determination, drive count just as much at crunch time. A 300 average is great a 280 average is average, but it is only a 2% difference. The playoff heros are often the average player or below average who rises up and exceeds his stats at the right moment. If you only look at pure stats, you will miss this player.
The playoff heros are often the average player or below average who rises up and exceeds his stats at the right moment.
Ladies and gentlemen, the last 10 MVPs
1998 Scott Brosius New York Yankees
1999 Mariano Rivera New York Yankees
2000 Derek Jeter New York Yankees
2001 Randy Johnson, Curt Schilling Arizona Diamondbacks
2002 Troy Glaus Anaheim Angels
2003 Josh Beckett Florida Marlins
2004 Manny Ramírez Boston Red Sox
2005 Jermaine Dye Chicago White Sox
2006 David Eckstein St. Louis Cardinals
2007 Mike Lowell Boston Red Sox
2008 Cole Hamels Philadelphia Phillies
I’ll give you David Eckstein…
yes john
that ‘grit’ is what gets you 4 million dollars
“Wigginton’s highest RBI total in a season is just 79.
There’s a reason the Astros non-tendered him.”
There certainly is. But it’s not his RBIs.
He was going to be making anywhere from $8-10MM after arbitration and the Astros need to cut payroll. Plain and simple… they’ve said it several times.
Although, I will say, Wigginton had a terrible average with RISP last year (.190), but that was an anamoly. Much like our current “third baseman” hitting .385 with RISP…
Also: Luck, spirit, determination, drive count just as much at crunch time.
And unfortuantely there isn’t a stat for “Grit”. Though I’m thinking Punto and Eckstein would lead the majors in such a category.
Danny V. hit 200 in the Arizona Fall League but had a fielding prowess at third base that would make Micheal Cuddyer proud as his range is a half step and a fall.
Whose Scott Brosius?
I wonder if John just realized he went from arguing wins are the only thing that matters to arguging that Nick Punto’s the exactly kind of guy that a team needs to win when it’s all on the line. 
I understand the anti-Perkins bandwagon. Minnesotans, being earnest Midwesterners, have to prove that they have a rational, intellectual interest in the sport and are not just rooting for the hometown boys. So they are especially hard on home-grown players. See also criticism of Joe Mauer for only hitting .330 and not hitting for power. There’s no other rational explanation for that.
Steve - I dont think he was going to get more than 7 but you could be right
basically we can argue stats all we want.
era, whip, walks, strikeouts, hits, hr allowed
bottom line is this.
wins.
going 0-162 gets a manager fired.
going 162-0 makes fans happy and gets you in the playoffs
if a team wants to win a championship.. they have to do JUST THAT.. WIN…
now.. someone want to tell me how philly has a world series ring. if they did not WIN there last game?
you are only kidding yourself if you think WINS dont matter.
the Hokey Pokey IS what its all about.
but WINS are the bottom line.
when you WIN you are a WINNER
otherwise you are a loser
perkins was a 12 game WINNER this year
how many WINS did the white sox have?
how many did the tWINs have?
I bet we all wish they had one more WIN
i would have taken a WIN from perkins rather then a 1-0 defeat by blackburn! would have been in the playoffs!
ha
alright. im done
T
yeah i totally agree. i want the guy whose up with RISP to hit a grounder to second and dive headfirst into 1B even though he’s already been thrown out…oh wait…
MH…tell me you didnt just say you’d rather get a ‘win’ from Perkins in that game 163 when Blackburn pitched his guts out and we couldn’t even score a leadoff double…
The criticism of Perkins is because he’s just flat out not that good, and he’s an injury risk. I don’t care if he’s from Stillwater, Saint Paul, Ann Arbor, Brooklyn, Cambodia, or the North Pole.
He’s got a bad strikeout rate and puts too many people on base. He’s also a huge injury risk. If people are asking for him in trades, we should get value for him while we can. Everyone thought Boof was gonna be good after 2006 too…
As for Mauer, he’s a great hitter. Should he be batting third? No. He’s got more of a lead-off/two-spot mentality. But that’s not his fault. Where he bats in the lineup falls on Gardy.
Mauer can hit 5 home runs or 25… as long he’s putting up an .864 OPS as a catcher, I’m glad he’s on my team. The Gold Glove doesn’t hurt either…
medschoolmatt
yeah.. i think anyone in here would rather get a win from perkins.
blackburn pitched his heart out and lost 1-0
if we are going to argue about who pitches harder and wins and losses then thats crazy
a win from perkins puts us in.. that loss by blackburn left us out
steve from fridley
so. should we get rid of mauer, neshek, liriano, perkins??
just curious..
id hate to see another injury from any of these guys
let me rephrase
you are saying that if perkins was pitching we’d have won but since blackburn was pitching we lost? or are you just being funny by saying a win is a win and reminding us of a horrible loss?
Good thing Perkins had some good run support in 2008. Otherwise he’d be a bad pitcher like Scott Baker.
Anyway, for Matt:
http://blogs.chron.com/sportsjustice/archives/2008/12/ed_wade_has_a_t.html
Richard Justice of the Houston Chronicle cites that Wigginton would make “almost $10 million.”
That’s where I was getting that number from.
Steve
if they’d just sign pat the bat Mauer could be in the 2 spot…
Thanks Steve
would they really have given him a raise from 4.3 to 10 mill when his numbers weren’t THAT big of an improvement?
Well let’s see:
When Mauer is healthy, he’s the best overall catcher in baseball.
When Neshek is healthy, he’s one of the best setup men in baseball.
When Liriano is healthy, he’s one of the best pitchers in baseball.
When Perkins is healthy, he’s… a replaceable #5 starter who does nothing to stand out in any way, shape, or form.
Except win 12 games I guess. Because he’s somehow in direct control of how many runs the team scores to save him from mediocrity…
Sorry Matt… the thought of Burrell in a Twins jersey makes my skin crawl.
It’d be nice to have another 30 HR bat though.
2010 lineup might be this:
span
casilla
gomez
mourneau
young
mauer
kubel/cuddyer
wigginton
punto
Wiggninton is solid…go get him. Young will develop. Also…who knows if Span will repeat. This lineup with an improved pitching staff should get to WS.
even as a DH Steve?
Even as a DH, yes.
And Geno, it’s nice to see someone else not immediately banking on Span’s repeat.
He’s probably going to disappoint a lot of people this season… considering half of Minnesota seems to think he’s an MVP candidate or that he actually deserved RotY consideration over Longoria…
Steve
he may decline, but you can’t fault that eye of his. he knows a good pitch when he sees it.
as for your thoughts of Pat, we’ll agree to disagree
This is a no-brainer signing for the Twins. It will take $5-8 million a year for no more then 2 years, just get it done. There are NO other viable FA options at 3B and giving Wigginton a little extra beats trading Perkins and prospects for one year of $12 million-Beltre.
I don’t understand those who only want him signed at a certain price. It really makes no difference if they sign him for $1 million or $8 million. They are a good $10 million under-budget and if they don’t make this move it’s unlikely they have anything else to spend it on. Even if they spend high on a reliever you’re talking $2-3 million bucks.
hmmm
don’t let me get into the wins by pitcher thing…
just this parting reminder:
Livan won 10 in 5 out of 7 months last season…
Just wait until all the good FA starting pitchers finish signing, there will be some desperate teams left out (atlanta, milwaukee, baltimore, washington, texas, toronto to name a few), and nick blackburn and our AAAA starters will look more and more appealing to them.
I don’t want wigginton unless he has a decent glove at third, and not for more than we offered blake. We have no room in the outfield, and you know what a stickler gardy is for defense, if he starts sucking it up at 3rd tolbert or some scrub will be taking his ab’s.
Crede’s back injury must be pretty chronic because I haven’t heard his name mentioned with any teams this offseason. Hopefully that means he could be had relatively cheap. I’d rather have him because he has a much bigger upside than wigginton, knows american league pitchers (or have we forgotten what a league change did to mike lamb), and plays really good defense. I’d offer Crede an incentive-laden one year deal with a vesting option based on games played. If he gets injured, it doesn’t cost us that much and we have buscher and harris platoon to fall back on (which was pretty successful last year outside of the butcher’s defense).
Blackburn or Perkins should be dealt because we have humber, swarzak, and duensing all ready to break into the league, with the next (and more promising) wave of starters hitting AA this year, with shooter hunt and gutierrez also likely to move quickly through the system.
Bullpen so far:
Nathan
Crain
Breslow
Mijares
Guerrier
Bonser
Humber?
Jason Jones?
Korecky?
Of those guys crain and mijares are the only ones who are suited for more than loogy or mop-up duty in my opinion. If Mijares or breslow regress or crain gets hurt our pen will get awful really quickly.
I saw Anthony Slama pitch in Ft Myers last summer and was impressed. He throws hard from a 3/4 angle and has good movement on his fastball, and excellent quick breaks on his breaking pitches. Right now he’d be way better than those lollipops guerrier throws up there.
Wins (obviously) are very important to a team.
But wins barely coorelate with a pitchers ability and have minimal value in evaluating a pitchers performance level.
If you can’t separate those two concepts, then you are not capable of properly evaluating a pitchers performance level.
You can argue stats/wins all you want with perkins/blackburn. But looking into their individual starts and their pitching strategies sheds a little more light.
Perkins was downright dominating at times last year. He pitched hard inside with his cutter consistently, which led to a few extra home runs, but also a ton of weakly hit outs. There were a couple of games where he was squeezed by the ump on inside pitches really bad where he otherwise pitched alot better than his line would show(the yankee home game he started comes to mind). He also has a nasty change that dives away from righties. So he is pretty good at keeping them guessing.
I think his biggest problem towards the end of the year was that as he tired his mechanics faltered and he had a hard time repeating his delivery and left too many balls up and over the plate. As a stockier guy it’s understandable he has a little harder time with his delivery.
He needs to get stronger and leaner over the winter.
By contrast Blackburn has excellent mechanics, has an easy delivery that is easy to repeat, and has excellent control. He attacks hitters by putting different spins on his fastball (2-seam, 4-seam, and cutter), hoping for groundouts or popups. He had a hard time all year using his breaking pitches to get outs (although he showed a sharper slider in the one game playoff) . He’s like Brad Radke, but without a good changeup. He matched up with the white sox lineup well because they all swing for the fences. It’s the teams like the twins who like to hit it where it’s pitched who he has a hard time against. He has to be almost perfect to win, because he doesn’t have a power fastball and throws so few changeups.
Blackburn’s trade value is probably nearing the apex right now, we’d be wise to trade him this winter for a young 3rd baseman or shortstop, or even a solid young setup guy and let a guy like humber or swarzak with better stuff try to fill the 5th starter spot.
I still think perkins will get better, and if he still shows stamina issues I think he’d be great in the bullpen.
“I don’t want wigginton unless he has a decent glove at third,”
He ranked in the top 10 in ZR and RZR for all third basemen. He should be fine.
“and not for more than we offered blake.”
He should get more than Blake, because he’s better than Blake.
“Crede’s back injury must be pretty chronic because I haven’t heard his name mentioned with any teams this offseason. Hopefully that means he could be had relatively cheap.”
Crede on turf though… plus he’s got a career OBP barely above .300.
“I’d rather have him because he has a much bigger upside than wigginton,”
How so?
“knows american league pitchers (or have we forgotten what a league change did to mike lamb),”
Wigginton spent two and a half years in Tampa Bay…
“If he gets injured, it doesn’t cost us that much and we have buscher and harris platoon to fall back on (which was pretty successful last year outside of the butcher’s defense).”
Except that expecting any kind of repeat out of Brian Buscher is insane. He hit almost .400 with RISP. There’s no way he does that again. He’s a singles hitter against RHP only… I’d rather just give Wigginton a deal and solve the problem without having to use two roster spots.
With that platoon, Buscher gets the lion’s share of playing time (most pitchers are right-handed)… that’s just not a good thing for the Twins.
“Perkins was downright dominating at times last year.”
So were Blackburn, Slowey, Liriano, and Baker. Heck, so was Boof once or twice.
“He pitched hard inside with his cutter consistently,”
For the most part, but there were plenty of outings where he left meatballs out there for good hitters after he got flustered. Raul Ibanez anyone?
“which led to a few extra home runs, but also a ton of weakly hit outs.”
25 home runs is hardly “a few.”
“There were a couple of games where he was squeezed by the ump on inside pitches really bad where he otherwise pitched alot better than his line would show(the yankee home game he started comes to mind).”
Come on now. You can make that argument about any pitcher in baseball, and it can go both ways. I’m sure there were plenty of times he got a generous call from an ump too.
Perkins is a fine backend starter, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Teams need pitchers like that. But he’s injury-prone and struggled as the season went on. It can be attributed to the volume of innings, the league adjusting to his tendencies, or maybe both.
Either way, Perkins and Blackburn are both expendable for the right pieces.
Adding to what theinvictus said, Wigginton’s numbers last year were not simply a product of Minute Maid Park. Looking back to 2006 and part of 2007 when he played for the Devil Rays, his home/road splits also leaned heavily towards home, despite the Trop hardly having a rep as a hitters paradise. It just looks like the guy plays better at home, which is not uncommon throughout the league.
Some may see this as an equally significant problem, but it’s not like we’re talking about Garrett Atkins here.
Fire McHale Now,
“or have we forgotten what a league change did to mike lamb”
Apparently YOU have forgotten what a league change did for Carlos Quentin and Josh Hamilton.
I’ll bet the White Sox and the Rangers don’t regret picking those guys out of the NL.
I hope signing Wiggy turns out half that well for the Twins.
Because I was bored and not feeling like sleeping (a decision I will regret in a bit over 3 hours when my alarm goes off), I poked around and found the following payroll estimates for 2009 (and it’s interesting how disparate the estimates can be from one source to the next):
all numbers in millions
Morneau 11.6
Nathan 11.25
Mauer 10.5
Cuddyer 7.67
Punto 4.0
Lamb 2.6 (3 minus MLB min pd by Milw)
Kubel 2.5 (arb estimate)
Crain 1.7
Guerrier 1.5 (arb estimate)
Redmond .95
Young .7
Baker .425
Bonser .425
Buscher .425
Humber .425
Neshek .425
Blackburn .4
Breslow .4
Casilla .4
Gomez .4
Harris .4
Jones .4
Liriano .4
Mijares .4
Perkins .4
Slowey .4
Span .4
Tolbert .4
I think that’s somewhere around $61.5 million. Estimates of 2008 revenue seemed to run close to $150mm but with the economy as it is, it might be unrealistic to expect similar revenues in 2009. Even at $140mm, though, it would seem the club has at least $10mm of room to pick up a 3B and perhaps another RP.
I would also add that the team could afford a bit more, given that their 2008 payroll was closer to 40% of revenue than 50%.
In other words… there’s no legitimate argument the club could make that they can’t afford to go hard after Wigginton and still make a run at another RP if they choose to do so.
Jim,
Just to add to your point… Cuddyer’s only making 6.75 next year, so there’s about another million that can be spent.
There really is NO reason this shouldn’t happen.
Steve, you’re correct. I pulled figures from several sources and the figures I used for Cuddyer and Morneau came from a Strib article and I just noticed they included pro-rated signing bonus amounts for both Cuddyer and Morneau, so you can knock off close to $2mm from my estimated total since those bonuses were paid this past year. Guess we could use $60 million as a pretty good ballpark for current commitments.
I didn’t even look at Morneau’s, interesting. I just knew Cuddyer’s sounded a bit off.
Roto World has a great section that gives every player’s contract details if you’re ever looking for them in the future…
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/clubhouse_contracts.aspx?sport=MLB&majteam=ARZ
On that note… I’m going to be quite angry at myself when my alarm goes off too, so I’m going to bed. Although mine’s going off in 6 hours, not 3, so maybe I’ve got no right to complain…
At this point, I’m considering just watching a movie and hoping I can sleep on my flight to Florida in the morning… that always seems like a good idea but never seems to work out well.
wow you guys are gay
medschoolmatt says:
December 14th, 2008 at 7:41 am
“define better year TK?”
Well that’s not a question, but I’ll briefly address it:
Blake: More HR’s, better defensively, More doubles, walk more, strikeout less, and in general, more ‘clutch’.
Wigginton: He Might have a better Avg., RBI, and OBP, but if he does, it’ll be close.
These assumtions are based on him playing here, and not elsewhere.
He’s got Mike Lamb numbers/potential, and was just a backup…for the Asholes.
P.S.
It’s TK(2)
Thanks.
He’s worth the money and the years. Imagine how he would produce if he was hitting around guys like Joe and Justin with Kubel behind him. Sounds like a nice little set up.
I say the Twins should think big and go for a championship, not just try to win the division. There are not too many times when you will have enough talent assembled to give you hope for wining big, but I think this team is close. So why not go for broke instead of just trying to slightly improve?! Add Wiggington (that’s a no-brainer). How about going after a lower level starting pitcher (since I know the Twins will never go after a front-line guy like Peavey or Lowe), someone like Garland or Randy Wolf? That would give you some flexibility and you could move either Blackburn or Perkins to the pen. And why not add Pat Burrell? He could DH, play LF, spell Morneau at 1st. Trade one of the outfielders for top notch bullpen help and you’re set for a championship. The Twins did this before in 87 when they added Gladden, Reardon, and Berenger….
What about Scott Erickson? The last time that guy pitched over 200 innings (going 15-12 with a 4.8 ERA) was in 1999. Since that time he was 13-32 with an ERA well over 6.00. He did not pitch in ‘07 or ‘08. Why the buzz?
capcom
because its scott erickson
i dont know why we keep listening to the front office and there big wet dreams they keep talking about the big moves they are going to make and they never do it gets really old. and then we will be in a new stadium in 2010 and we are looking at siging ty wiggington and giveing punto a 2 year deal wow what a joke good luck twins
How is he on defense? Sounds like his hitting is what they’re looking for.
For those who think we will get Wigginton forget it.See a trend over the past 20 years ? If we are after a player that has value and other teams actually want also… “oh we made a good effort and got slightly outbid. we’re not going to mortgage our future “, blah blah blah. same response and same result evrytime. Name the last free agent we signed that was worth a damn. we get the 1-2 million dollar player that no one else wants (like lamb) I wish they would stop blowing smoke and just say they are going into next year with what they have (which isn’t too bad)
they are going to make and they never do it gets really old.
2008:
1) Traded Garza/Young/Morlan for Young/Harris/Pridie.
2) Extended Morneau’s contract.
3) Extended Cuddyer’s contract.
4) Extended Nathan’s contract.
Go home troll.
Thanks for finding the numbers JC:
So if the Twins are currently projecting to be 10mil short of the self-imposed payroll, would it be wise to wrap that all up in one player? What happens in subsequent years when young guys need their contracts extended?
Provided the new stadium opens the following year, so there will hopefully be a higher amount of revenue to assist in that.
T
as long as the team gets past ‘win the division and thats good enough’, there will be more than enough revenue in the new stadium since fans will go watch a winner in a shiny new outdoor park.
Also, this team made it to the ALCS with a team much less balanced and had much less star power than it does now and only got beaten by the rally monkey (darn monkey…). They have to realize that the time to win is now, and guys like Wiggy will help that
Hell yes the Twins should sign this guy. I wanted the Twins to sign him a couple of years ago at the July 31st trading deadline! Now if that candy ass BS would get off his butt and get this guy, then all of us can say this off season was not a complete waste……
“going 0-162 gets a manager fired.
going 162-0 makes fans happy and gets you in the playoffs” -MH
Has anyone ever gone 162-0??? I don’t think fans would just be happy, they’d be going crazy!!! It would be like Angels in the Outfield…weirdness everywhere.
Does Scott Erickson still have a sweet mullet???
medschool: Ironically enough (if that’s where to use the word), it was the bullpen collapse that killed the Twins in 2002.
And Jake: Which would cause a crazier riot?
1) Team going 162-0.
2) Said team not winning the World Series.
PLEASE MAKE THIS HAPPEN!!!!!
Pat Burrell at DH, Kubel or Young for some bodies. Sign Wiggy also. But, I don’t think either happens. I think they stand pat, except for acquiring a relief pitcher.
As for stats, you guys are looking at them wrong. Wins matter, for determining the past - they are the only stat that matters for the past. For a team, and somewhat for a pitcher, they can be used to predict the future. However, the outcomes that produce wins are better predictors of the future performance of an individual. As for grit and determination, they only matter if they produce more stats and better outcomes (which can only be measured with stats). If you are gritty, but don’t produce more positive outcomes (or less negative outcomes), it doesn’t matter. Only outcomes matter. I try hard when I’m up to bat, and I encourage the heck out of my teammates, but I’m a terrible hitter.
Which would cause a crazier riot?
T,
ask the Patriots’ fans about last year
missing out on blake was a blessing in disguise and i can only hope that mr smith is smart enough to notice and take care of business….blake would have been great and was very disappointing when he signed elsewhere because we wouldnt have to mess with our roster to get him…well now comes wigginton surprisingly enough, and he too can now be had for nothing but cash, and he actually is a better pickup than blake and he is 4 yrs younger, just a perfect fit for the twins….so heres your chance mr smith to do whats so very right for this team….dont blow it and dont lose it over a few bucks…pay this man what it takes to get him on the roster…having him on the roster and being able to leave all other players in place makes this team very dangerous offensively…this roster also would have so much versatility with the 4 outfielders and guys like wigginton who can play all over that all our players can get days off and rests here and there that everyone is fresh and yet all are getting playing time…a very good situation…..i am also confident that they will find relief help within our own organization unless they can find a great free agent to help out, then more power to them, but the main key right now is getting smith to put the ink to ty wigginton..today would be a good day to get that done…..
T:
The 2001 Mariners almost did just that. Although they won like 120 games or something. STill pretty crazy that such a dominant team didnt make it to the WS.
No riot though. Now if they were the DETROIT Marniners…
I just can’t get rid of this nagging feeling that we won’t try to sign Wigginton because they’re planning to acquire the bat via moving Delmon.
There have been too many smoke signals, tea leaf readings, etc. that the Twins have made DY available. Gardy’s little bon mot up in North Dakota was simply to overt to think that there isn’t a real comfy place for Delmon.
Personally, if I were GM I’d get Wigginton signed, put a package together centered on Young, Blackburn or Perkins, and a couple of AAAA pitching prospects for Jake Peavey.
What I think they will do is trade Young et. al. for one of Kouz, Atkins or (very doubtful) Beltre and totally ignore Ty.
From his nickname of Dr. No around the Twins organization I just don’t think that BS has the creativity, savvy and risk orientation to seize an opportunity that falls outside “the plan.” I think that this FO is basically Terry Ryan still making the baseball calls and BS running the business side of baseball. And Terry Ryan was not managerially agile or known to take risks that caused in-house prospects to be dealt.
I want TW in the worst way, but I just doubt they’ll do it.
span rf
casilla 2b
mauer c
morneau 1b
wigginton 3b
kubel/cuddy/young dh
young lf
punto ss
gomez cf
redmond, cuddy, buscher, tolbert, harris
depending on how many pitchers they carry….i would love to see this roster, as i think its solid with no real weak spots–even to all the punto haters….hell if he hits .275 and does the job in the field, we will be fine….
Signing Wiggy does make too much sense. Which is why I fear the Twins won’t do it and instead we will hear Billy’s tired bag of excuses about “just didn’t fit … numbers too high…, blah, blah, blah. Plus, he already said he is quite content going into the new season with Buscher and Harris platooning at 3rd.
I don’t know how the price could be too high though when he is willing to give a utility player with no bat $4 million.
mj1
No way Young starts ahead of Cuddyer.
Kay,
Your $4 million utility player is the Twin $4 million regular SS.
He is overpaid, but Free Agents are all overpaid by definition as a reward for achieving free agency.
Finding a cheaper servicable FA SS from the following list would not be easy:
Angel Berroa (31)
Willie Bloomquist (31)
Orlando Cabrera (34) - Type A, offered arbitration
Alex Cintron (30)
Alex Cora (33)
Craig Counsell (38)
David Eckstein (34)
Rafael Furcal (31)
Nomar Garciaparra (35)
Chris Gomez (38)
Jerry Hairston Jr. (33)
Aaron Miles (32)
Tomohiro Nioka (33)
Luis Rivas (29)
Juan Uribe (30)
Omar Vizquel (42)
I would say the Twins overpaid for Punto, but would have had to overpay for ANY shortstop that could pass the Stink Test.
Willie,
Gardy is calling the shots, so if he wants Delmon gone so he can start his buddy Cuddyer without controversy, Delmon will be gone.
WJ,
That is what I believe as well. Gardy is pretty good at sending messages.
What I’m basically saying is that instead of taking advantage of an unexpected opportunity that didn’t exist when the plan was assembled, a plan which from all the smoke signals includes trading DY, they will likely just follow the plan anyway regardless of TW’s availability.
I acknowledge that DY will be gone. I’m just saying that a good executive would sign TW AND put a package that increases the talent in the organization. I picked Peavey since that would enable you to probably put one of your existing arms in the pen, but I suppose you could upgrade any other position (aside from 3rd since you signed Wigs)by using DY and others to get some real value back.
But that’s just me.
WJ,
Unless the Twins receive something substantial in return for Delmon, the “without controversy” proviso is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
If Delmon is traded for crap, BS and Gardy will both be up to their ass in alligators, with no time to drain the swamp!
I don’t disagree with you sane. If they are willing, though, to overpay for a starting SS with a mighty stinky bat, they should be willing (and we know that they are able) to overpay for a solid starting 3rd baseman. To not even try for Wiggy would just be pathetic, but I can see them not trying.
Kay,
We agree on that.
If they don’t make an HONEST effort to sign Wiggy, (or some comparable 3B) then the negative posters on this blog are correct and I have wasted my time defending the indefensible FO.
Kay,
Where we do disagree, is on the subject of Punto’s bat.
He hit has batted:
2006 .290
2007 .210
2008 .284
Two out of the past three years, his hitting was acceptable for a defense-first SS.
sane,
there is one person in your list (Jerry Hairston Jr.) who would have probably been cheaper than Punto and had better offensive but probably worse defensive production than Punto. That said, I think that there is too much time spent discussing the #9 hitter in the lineup…
sane, agree totally. I meant “without controversy” in Gardy’s mind.
sane -30 with windchill factor. California dreaming on such a winters day. Can anyone tell me if we are actually going to signd a FA this off season for 3rd. My guess is NO.
But sane, look at his RBI and strike-out totals - RBI’s in particular.
jimmybee,
“It never rains in California”
If that’s true, then wtf has been pounding on my roof since midnight?
and why can’t I see the grass in the park across the street?
sane ooh that worm smell. That ishy acid rain fish smelling worm smell that only So-Cal can bring you. Are we getting a 3rd baseman this year anyone?
Kay,
RBIs are as much an indicator of offensive capabilities as Wins are of pitching capabilities… not good indicators because they depend heavily on production of other players. Win probability added (WPA) and the related Value Over Replacement Player (VORP) are probably the best indicators.
In 2008 Punto had a 13.4 VORP, in 2007 -27.1; which means that in 2007 a warm AAA body would have produced 127% of Punto’s production and in 2008 Punto produced 13.4% more of the same warm AAA body
Kay,
Punto doesn’t drive in many runs, but he gets ‘em on, gets ‘em over and someone else has to get ‘em in.
Many shortstops (Ozzie, Mark Belanger, etc.) played many years on their defensive contributions alone.
Punto actually out-hits many of them.(RBI-deficiency overlooked)
How are we going to sign Punto for 4.5 million a year so easily and find it so hard to sign Ty. Punto has energy but no offense, Ty has both and would cost only a little more. There is no debate here, we need to sign him.
sane, Punto can get on base, sometimes when the team really needs a baserunner. But he seldom moves runners over or drives them in. He usually pops up.
jimmy,
Worm smell?
Where the hell did you live in SoCal?
I have the smell of roses and flowers and trees all around, and the rain smells fresh.
LNP is our starting SS for next year. This message has been brought to you by Gardy and forwarded to you by jimmy bee.
sane SGV. Pasadena area. The sidewalks used to overflow during heavy downpours thus causing worms to appear everywhere.
Punto hits well with RISP, but can’t drive in runs, because the outfielders crowd him because of his power deficiency.
But he often keeps the inning alive by getting his 140-ft singles.
jimmybee,
Long Beach area has fast drain-off to the ocean, so those problems don’t show up here.
sane your lucky with the quick run offs we just had the stinky old wash like area where people dump old sofa’s and dilapidated televisions
i think we will get wiggy or by the looks of this blog, mr smith will be running for his life…if we do get wiggy, i think it would be insane to get rid of delmon..although i agree with sane, if we get something comparable, and im not sure what that would be, yet it would have to be almost the golden goose to be safe…delmon has a tremendous upside and i for one think he may find it this year and continue to develop into a star, we should be able to live with delmon one more year to see what improvement he makes in his 2nd year with the twins…….are there any pitchers out there that the twins should be going after once the offense is taken care of or should they just develop from within the org….sounds like we have a tremondous lot of arms, i would like to think we have some homegrown talent …just wondering what others think…
Since he is our starting SS for the next 2-3 years, I just wish he would learn how to bunt so that he could move the runners over.
Get a 3rd baseman Billy and don’t trade DY to do it!
“are there any pitchers out there that the twins should be going after once the offense is taken care of or should they just develop from within the org”
I for one think we are stocked full as far as starters and think we are fine in that department. As for MR see if Humber or mulvey are ready or maybe even try the pitcher from the Yankees we just picked up. Maybe even try and pick up Houston Street or 1 other MR for help
Many shortstops (Ozzie, Mark Belanger, etc.) played many years on their defensive contributions alone.
Ozzie was also a pretty valuable offensive player for the bulk of his career.
mj1,
Like you say, the Twins have a “lot of arms”.
Maybe a quantity for quality trade would help the Twins at the MLB level, with the risk of giving up a potential future star.
I think that risk is worthwhile occasionally.
Here is the thing about trading Delmon: The only things that the Twins need at this point (other than a 3B for next season) are: a young SP with a lot of potential that is somewhat actualized and a future SS. Would the Twins be able and willing to package Delmon with some of the starting pitching surplus and mid-level prospect 1B/OF types to make this happen?
thrylos98 I don’t think Lincecum is available. Other then him whom would you suggest
Kay,
Punto was originally a good bunter.
In 2007, he was a mental-emotional mess at the plate and couldn’t hit OR bunt. (or dress himself)
IMO his bunting improved last year, as his hitting confidence returned.
It is still not as good as it used to be (or needs to be) but I think there is hope for improvement.
i usually love to see trades made and dream about possible deals, almost like playing fantasy baseball, but with this bunch we dont exactly have billy beane on our side….i dont have any faith or trust in bill smith to pull the trigger on any deal…i wish i was wrong and hope that i am, but to this date i dont know that he has done anything to make me real confident about him playing wheeler dealer….
sure is nice to discuss baseball when its -36 f’n degrees below 0 windchill here in fgo….and going to get colder if you can believe
“i usually love to see trades made and dream about possible deals, almost like playing fantasy baseball, but with this bunch we dont exactly have billy beane on our side”
and for that I am happy that we do not have Billy Beane. If we had Billy Beane here with the Twins we would have traded away Morneau, Mauer and Liriano and Baker by now. Everyone would be gone.
mj1,
Did you say -36 degrees wind chill factor AND DROPPING?
Holy Crap!
I will stop bitching about the rain, now.
mj1,
BS(good initials, those) is almost forced to do something. I think he knows that if he keeps DY and sticks with the 5 guys for 4 situation DY will be the odd man out and see playing time diminished (which reduces his trade value.) There is no way Cuddy, with his salary, will be paid to be a super sub. Also, DY sitting is going to be a burr in the clubhouse’s saddle. Cripes he was mad when he wasn’t in the lineup when he was hurt. Does anyone think that his teddy bear demeanor will improve by sitting around?
So to me the only question is what are you going to use DY plus perhaps others depending on the other team’s offer for?
Are you going to use him to get your 3B/right hand power bat? Or are you going to sign TW and use DY to upgrade a ML position or beef up your minor league depth in places you have holes?
I don’t see any way that DY will be here given what has been circulated and knowing his demeanor when he doesn’t play every day.
Personally I would trade Cuddy, but I don’t know what you’d get for him.
If I were GM, TW would be signed and I would try to find a deal where I get one “can’t miss” prospect, preferably at short and a bunch of the types that they have had good luck unearthing over the years….Lohse, Casilla…those AA players who are hidden gems. If I can upgrade the bullpen with DY fine, but I wouldn’t make that the centerpiece of what I get for him.
I think if they sign TW that they will be very comfy with the ML team’s position players and focus on getting more prospects.
But I am convinced they will do something to move DY…I want them to sign TW and then beef up the org. I bet BS just trades him for Kouz+.
yes jimmy bee…there is that side of the coin also…he is not afraid to let go of his studs…
Do it. The Twins need to get this guy. It is absolutely obvious. There is almost no downside to this; He is much younger than Blake, he is a right-handed power-hitter, and the Twins would not need to trade anyone to get him. Do it. I expect to see him in a Twins uniform by the end of the week, or I will be very disappointed.
mj1 they used to have some great teams over there for years. These A’s are just a shell of there former selves. Yes sane -36 and dropping.
I don’t think Lincecum is available. Other then him whom would you suggest
I said “some actualized potential” not Cy Young… Pitchers who might fall in these categories (and I am not saying they are available) :
Clay Buchholz
Greg Smith
Dana Eveland
Sean Gallagher
Eric Hurley
Brandon McCarthy
John Lannan
Jo-Jo Reyes
Anibal Sanchez
Yovani Gallardo
Johnny Cueto
Daryl Thompson
Jaime Garcia
Yusmeiro Petit
Wade Leblanc
Not the Lincicums, Cains, Chamberlains, Lesters of the world… most of them are not household names (one of them was but really regressed last year)
thrylos98 Phill Hughes???
Kershaw? Chad Billingsley, and Jonathan Broxton
Couple of questions:
Assuming the Twins signed TW and were trading DY still
1) What do you think DY is worth?
2) What team(s)would be likely candidates?
3) Do you think he could reap one of those pitchers thrylos listed AND another good prospect (like an near ready shortstop)?
jimmy bee,
no way a DY package can bring the pitchers you mention
thrylos98 Kershaw would be awesome but it would be like trying to pry away Joba from the yank’s. I know untouchable. Won’t happen.
Willie Norwood,
by himself hard… but the equation here is Young + something (lets say Perkins + prospects) for one of those pitchers and a very good SS prospect. So a trade would be limited to teams who have very good shortstop prospects plus these type of young pitchers.
i am going to assume we sign wiggy, so trading away young seems defeating to me…there is nothing wrong with having an extra outfielder, especially the way this bunch crash walls etc…someone is always banged up, so its not like we are overloaded, besides moving them around a bit to dh and days off, theres plenty of room for the 4 plus kubel….but if its an absolute delmon has to go, then i can only think that we get a stud, and i mean guaranteed stud pitcher out of the deal and i dont even know who that would be, and i dont even like that idea of trade– i would rather keep the offense…we have good pitching and hopefully this year will be only better….maybe even imitate the braves staff at some time….that would be nice….how about 4 18-20 game winners…that would be a big time dream…but not impossible…..
madonna settles divorce for a paltry 75 million…lucky bastard he is huh?? not a bad day for him…..
Ty Wiggington is a defensive liability. This club has no motivation to sign any players with a pulse. Bouscher and Harris will platoon @ 3rd base. The other major concern is the BP, when will that get addressed?
I think the Twins are going to take some serious steps backwards in 2009. I have been a baseball fan for more than fifty years and I can tell when a team in not headed in the right direction. The Twins are at a crossroads with several talented young players. There is a serious need for a powerful right handed bat in the clean up spot in the batting order. Not obtaining such a player not only prevents the team from gaining ground on the White Sox, but sets a lower standard of expectation for the team. If signing Punto to a two year contact reflects the mindset of the front office, then I think the fans can expect the acquisition of a couple of mediocre players, at best, and no strong improvement in the team’s overall performance. Obtaining a solid right handed clean up hitter to hit between Mauer and Morneau is probably the only missing link for the Twins team, since the starting pitching will continue to improve along with the rest of good young players. It would be an outstanding acquisition if the Twins could obtain a solid clean up hitter who is roughly in the same age group as Mauer, Morneau, Span, Gomez, Young and Casilla. Then they could make strong stides toward a possible World Series.
The Twins really aren’t going anywhere without the acquisition of a strong right handed clean up hitter to hit between Mauer and Morneau. The front office has only one serious move to make to complete the pieces of the puzzle in building a strong contender, and it is the acquisition of a clean up hitter. But the Billy Smith wagan had all the wheels turning, but the cart never seems to go anywhere on the road toward improvement.
“i am going to assume we sign wiggy,”
That seems like a huge assumption to me.
And you know what happens when you assume…
John Castino,
You had no backbone when you played!
wally…why do you think most of us are beggin bill smith to sign wiggy…i/we believe he is that player you talk about to help get to the next level, although one man does not guarantee anything, alot of things that happened last year will have to happen again and then some to win next year….we still need to fix a bullpen in addition to getting wiggy on the dotted line..
The Twins farm system has no position players that can help, the pitching depth down there is a concern and their drafts the past few years have been suspect. All we hear from the front office each year is how they need to address certain areas of the club, but it’s always a reactive approach rather than a proactive one. And then they tell the media how difficult it is to try and sign players after a player they target is signed by another team that’s willing to make the extra effort to get that player. All this team strives for is to be “competetive” and the fans here are okay with that. The owners know this teams fans just want to compete for or win the division and anything beyond that is icing on the cake.
joe c has a new post….
[…] Indians, Giants, Pirates, and Reds may all bid for free agent Ty Wigginton’s […]
If Bill Smith doesn’t sign either Wigginton or Joe Crede to play 3rd base (talk about two gamers!) he needs to immediately leave town and go back to lounging around the tanning bed and pool like he did during the Baseball Meetings. He has made, in one year, so many horrible trades and awful pickups that he is gun-shy and other than the Punto re-signing he may not make a single move.
The Twins will absolutely need another right-handed power hitter in 2010. The left field foul pole in the new stadium is 339 feet from home plate. That’s a routine fly ball in the Dome (if anything is routine when hit in DY’s direction).
This is LaVelle pretending he’s a GM. The Twins will never pay to get this guy. They pay Morneau 8.4M and Mauer 6.25M…and they would pay 8M for this guy??? Give me a break.
[…] Ty Wigginton the answer? I don’t know. I know the Twins like him, as La Velle reported Sunday. But they liked Casey Blake, too, so I’m guessing it’ll depend on how much Wigginton […]
This club has no motivation to sign any players with a pulse.
Who in the current 3B FA crop would you consider to “have a pulse”.
Since 1991 I have been duping the clueless fans into believing I was going to put money into the team and produce a winning playoff team. Suckers. Thanks for all the money. I am so rich that even I lost count.
P.S. Food Consessions are going up again… Hahahahahahahahahha!
Billy Smith is my B-e-o-t-c-h… enough said…
Anyone named Ty Wigginton should not be acquired by the Minnesota Twins. It is just one hair brained scheme after another for the Twins.
How does a person get in contact with Bill Smith and convince him how important it is for the twins to sign Wigginton, no matter how high they need to go dollar wise. This is the person that could put the twins in the playoffs. Smith will not find a better fit for the twins.
Luke Hughes is your future Twins 2B who hits for average and power and Danny Valencia will be a very solid and powerful 3B. Moving them around to alot of different positions, as the Twins have a tendancy to do, would only hurt their performance. I don’t think the Twins need to acquire a 3B in the mean time when they have Brian Buscher and Brandon Harris, who are both young and do a decent job at 3B for the time being. The idea of the Twins taking their time with bring up Hughes and Valancia is another perennial fault the Twins have. They need to bring the talented ones up and let em rip. There are enough solid performers in the Twins lineup to compensate for future stars like Hughs and Valencia sooner than later. Major league experience is a far better teacher for them than letting them progress slowly in the minors. Keeping them down there only saves the Twins organization money.
If Wigginton is so good, why has he played with six differrent teams in the past seven years. Take a closer look at his number too, they are only average and very inconsistent. The Twins would gain nothing by obtaining the guy. I think the Twins fans would much rather see Valencia brought up to gain young age Major league experience at 3B.
I think it would be a really good idea to bring up 2b Hughes and 3b Valencia and allow them to play regularly in the Major Leagues. It would truely be a youth movement of notoriety. Both need a bit more experience, but the experience at the Major League level is worth much more than in the minor leagues. The Twins organization has to rid itself of it’s fear of bring up talented young players from its own system. Mixing those two powerful young right handed bats into the lineup it just what the Minnesota Twins need. The Yankees didn’t let Mickey Mantle gain his experience in the Minors and the Giants didn’t required Willie Mays to spend extra time in the Minors learning. What the heck are the Twins thinking? I would like to see both Hughs and Valencia on the Twins roster for 2009. There is alot to gain and little to lose.
you got a steal with M and M and now that you have to pay full price for a solid 3B, which the twins have not had in years you guys are balking. This deal does not involve trading any other players, which the past deals have required (beltre, atkins, jj and kouz) Pony up the friggn dough! The goal was to get power from an infielder not named Morneau. Overpaid for Gardy’s man crush, now lets give a little extra for someone who can actually hit the ball.
On another note, if i see punto fail to lay down another sacrifice bunt i swear i will drive up from colorado and bitch slap him across the baseball diamond.
Twins management keep your faith in young, if he can get off his hockey skates out in left field and not swing at absolutely every 1st pitch he will be a solid lf, cuddy can go and dh for us.
Go Twins!!
This just seems to make sooo mauch sense!
He’s everything we need and we won’t have to trade away anybody or lose draft picks. This leaves us with trade bait to shore up the BP now or before the trade deadline(when people like cuddy and Humber might have more trade value).
The Perkins questions are: What was his average run support? How did his average RS compare to that for other Twins pitchers? What were their respective records? Did Perkins have some blow outs that skewered his ERA/HRs&hits allowed/walks? If yes, then 12 wins is impressive. If he won some close games and pitched well that’s also impressive.
Santana had only 5 bad outings last year. If he’d only had 4, the Mets may have been in the post season. He pitched well in several games that either were blown by the BP and/or no run support, but yet, look at the Mets lineup. Even Delgado had a good year.
I’ll take a .250 hitter who hits .285 or better with RISP over a lifetime .300 hitter that hits .265 or less with RISP. And regardless of the lifetime average, if both hitters hit betwee .265 and .285 with RISP, then you need to look at other factors, such as OBP, OPS, runs scored, and defense before overpaying for the .300 hitter. Same goes for power. Yea, Wig hit 23 HRs, but what was the game situation? The Twins can’t afford a middle-market version of ARod.
That old saying, ‘timing is everything’ really is the essence of who’s good and who isn’t in baseball.
How many HRs did Everett hit last year? But how big were they?
“Ty Wiggington is a defensive liability.”
Wigginton posted a .732 RZR last year with Houston, and a .710 RZR with them in 2007. His .732 RZR is better than either Gold Glove winner in 2008, and on average he makes a play out of his zone just as frequently as David Wright (25 OOZ in 652 innings compared to Wright’s 56 in 1433).
He’s posted some ugly years in the past, but he showed that he’s capable of playing a solid third base lately too. Maybe getting regular playing time there every day rather than bouncing around the infield/outfield did him some good.
As for Punto, yes, overpaid. But, the Twins are a team that wins on its pitching, so it has to put defense first at 2d, 3b, SS, C, & CF. To give up defense for offense is to cannibalize the team’s strength.
The Twins need Wigginton, but Wigginton doesn’t need the Twins (or more specifically their money). Another 3B option will bite the dust.
The newest Indians Mailbag says they can’t afford Wigginton… that’s always nice to hear.
As several people have said, I think it’s going to come down to the Giants and the Twins. Hopefully, the Twins make a competitive offer and Wigginton misses the AL and/or thinks the Twins have a better shot at contending than the Giants.
Blake, while not a Great player, is still considerably better than Ty. Wiggy’s stats have just been too inconsistant. The more I look at this, the more I’m against signing him. I should state here that I’d still like him to become a Twin, but my expectations would be fairly low. I think the Twins really blew the offseason when they didn’t sign Blake. Everything left, in the world or 3B, is mediocre. There’s a reason why Ty didn’t get a contract offer. Just like Everett. Just like Lamb.
[…] everyone knows, the Astros non-tendered third baseman Ty WIgginton at Friday’s deadline. LEN3 wrote a piece about it over the weekend. Despite his name being similar to Ty Willingham, I think the […]
Braves have signed Furcal. Makes one wonder if Escobar would be back on the trading block. Would an Escobar (SS) and Punto (3B) left side of the infield be a possibility if Wigginton doesn’t work out?
La Velle,
You are a great baseball mind. Thanks for all of your reporting and insight.
I think the Wiggington thing should be put into a perspective based on supply and demand. Many say don’t spend 6,7,8 Million per year on him, not a good value. But the value should be considered against a short supply market for 3rd basemen and an extremely high demand market, and of course the Twins’ need at this position. The Twins have the money to spend and it’s not likely they will spend it somewhere else. So to me, it is worth a shot of 2 or 3 years for a guy who is probably quite valuable to us at that price. He isn’t David Wright, but he could go 20-60 for a few years, and that’s what we need. Thanks, JB
So with the Braves signing Furcal, it would be nice to have that SS spot open so we could swing a deal for Yunel Escabar…
LENIII…..do you have any type of update on Wiggy? I mean, have the Twins at least been in contact with him?!?! Man…I sure do hope so or my opinion of Billy Smith will go down even more than it already has.
so, Bill Smith told LENIII that the FO staff was meeting on Monday to discuss Wiggie and others. What happened at that meeting?
[…] Cantu or Edwin Encarnacion. There’s also been some Garret Atkins talk. There has been some rumored interest in Wigginton by the Giants with a speculated near trade almost happening at the Winter […]
JayTEE,
“so, Bill Smith told LENIII that the FO staff was meeting on Monday to discuss Wiggie and others. What happened at that meeting?”
No one brought the donuts, so the meeting was postponed until Tuesday.
Gee Sane, if I had known that, I would have picked ‘em up and delivered them myself!
Leave the old NLers in the NL where they belong. When was the last time that one panned out for the Twins? Again I suggest Joe Crede. Sign someone who will be here and actually CONTRIBUTE for more than a season.
Canoozer,
For the Twins, Luis Castillo and Red-Dog.
For the White Sox, Carlos Quentin.
For the Rangers, Josh Hamilton and Milton Bradley.
For the Red Sox, Mike Lowell.
National Leaguers are Big Leaguers, also.
Braves are talking about moving Kelly Johnson to LF - he’d look sweet in a Twins uni at 2B with Casilla at SS. There’s a guy I’d give Delmon for - but the Braves wouldn’t.
Oh wait - we have a full-time SS. : P
JimCrikket, the Twins need a power hitter at the third base position and need to keep Punto out of there. I would rather see Harris there. How much power is Furcal going to give them? Shortstop is set, they spent the money and now they have to live with their decision (dumb as it was)
OK, so I lurk around here, but no one has brought this up & it confuses me. The Astros non tendered Wigginton, after trying to trade him, unsuccessfully. Would it not have made far more sense for the Twins (or any team) & the Astros to agree to a trade of something - anything for him? Twins traded JC Romero for AA infielder. Twins traded a potential future relief pitcher at a low level for Eddie this past year. If the Astros were going to non tender, why not accept very low level potential instead of nothing. Then for the Twins, they offer arbitration, pay 7-10 million for one year & see if they like the guy, sell him on the team & the new stadium & extend if desired. INSTEAD, Now they have to offer 20+ million guaranteed & commit to him starting for three years (or something similar) - if they want him. Seems to me someone should have grabbed him for a fringe prospect before he hit free agency.
Delmon for Kelly Johnson? Ick.
Braves would jump at that… terrible trade for us
BALTIMORE (AP) — The Baltimore Orioles finally filled their hole at shortstop, signing free agent Cesar Izturis to a two-year contract Tuesday.
The 28-year-old Izturis batted .263 in 135 games with the St. Louis Cardinals this year. He ranked third in the NL with a .980 fielding percentage.
“This is a good opportunity to play every day,” Izturis said. “I think they needed a defensive shortstop. I just want to help the team win; it will be fun.”
Izturis won the 2004 Rawlings Gold Glove Award at shortstop for the Los Angeles Dodgers and was an NL All-Star for the Los Angeles Dodgers in 2005.
He fills the void at shortstop left by the trade in 2007 that sent Miguel Tejada to the Houston Astros. The Orioles employed six players at the position this year, including Freddie Bynum, Juan Castro and Alex Cintron.
Izturis joins a team that has endured 11 straight losing seasons, but hopes to help turn that around in 2009.
“This is a good team with a lot of young guys, guys I’ve played with before,” said Izturis, a native of Venezuela. “There’s a tradition here.”
A switch-hitter, Izturis batted .290 right-handed and .245 left-handed in 2008. He also led the Cardinals with 24 stolen bases.
kxande - You’re using common sense and that doesn’t apply to the Twins front office.
kxande,
I am thinking that there MUST be something wrong with your suggestion.
But it looks perfectly logical to me, so there has to be something that we don’t understand about the process.
Either we don’t understand it, or the MLB front offices don’t understand it.
I don’t know which it is.
perhaps he can decline arb??
[…] Still no indications the Twins have expressed interest in Ty Wigginton, though we’ve been told they like him. La Velle reported Sunday that the Giants, Pirates and Indians are all in the mix. […]
Yes, the Twins have said nothing about interest in Wigginton. Just report the news La Velle, don’t create it. Keep your ideas for your fantasy team. Wigginton is over rated and although the Twins need a power hitting either third baseman or shortstop, they have already shown that they are committed to another year of small ball.
larry,
Just report the news?
This isn’t the news.
Its a blog.
Just read the news, and stay away from the strib blogs.
That way you will get your @#$% news!
BREAKING…
Wiggy close to signing a 3 year deal with the Indians according to ESPN Insider…
Wiggy 3 years at $6.7 per year…. for the Tribe…
3 and 20 sounds like a lot for Wiggy…
twins will NOT get anyone this year again. they will get someone thats trying to make a rebound year in the bullpen. if they are going to get somebody for 1-3 mil at third than i would rather leave it with what we have. i would rather the FO say they aren’t interested in wiggy than say they are and not make a sincere effort! I’m tired of that song and dance!!
The Twins will be cheap again.
$4 million for LNP but Billy Smith thinks $6.7 million is “too much” for Wiggy? Freakin idiot! I am so sick of this FO.
“We looked at a lot of deals,” Smith said. “In most cases, we decided it wasn’t worth what we were going to have to give up.”
PATHETIC Billy. Just pathetic.
Sign anybody and pay them whatever they want. It’s not my money.
