Mark DeRosa is traded to the Indians….and the Twins couldn’t top THAT deal?
Posted on December 31st, 2008 – 1:33 PMBy La Velle
Jeff Stevens. Chris Archer. Jon Gaub.
Those three pitchers - none of them highly touted - helped Cleveland raise the stakes in the A.L. Central.
They were traded by the Indians to the Cubs for Mark DeRosa, a player the Twins coveted during the winter meetings but couldn’t find a, `match,’ with Chicago. DeRosa, 33 and in the final year of his contract, joins the Tribe after batting .285 last season with 30 doubles, 21 homers and 87 RBI. Those numbers sure would have looked nice at third base for the Twins.
My first reaction was to grab a copy of Baseball America’s Top 10 A.L. Central prospects. Stevens, Archer and Gaub were not listed among Cleveland’s top ten prospects.
My second reaction was to click onto John Sickels minor league baseball site and look up his list of Cleveland’s top 20 prospects for 2009. Unless my eyes deceived me - I haven’t begun to ring in the New Year yet - none of those pitchers were listed there, either.
My third reaction was to grab a copy of the 2008 Baseball America prospect handbook, which lists the top 30 prospects for each club. I found Stevens listed at 19. He can touch 95 mph with his fastball and has a good curve. He apparently had a chance to compete for a spot in Cleveland’s 2009 bullpen after going 5-4 with a 3.24 ERA in 36 games between AA and AAA,
The other two pitchers spent 2008 at Low-A Lake County. Archer was 4-8, 4.29 in 27 starts. Gaub - hey, he’s a former Gopher! - was 1-1, 3.38 with 100 strikeouts in 64 innings.
I was never told what the Twins offered for DeRosa. The belief at the winter meetings was that the Cubs needed a left-handed hitting outfielder, which the Twins don’t have to offer. But it’s hard to believe they couldn’t come up with one AAA pitcher and two A-ball guys to entice the Cubs to move DeRosa.
I can come up with three: Kevin Mulvey or Anthony Swarzak from AAA, and pick two from Santos Arias, Mike McCardell, David Bromberg and Spencer Steedley from Low-A Beloit. Check out Beloit stats here.
Even if it’s for one year, it’s for a player who can hit 20 homers and drive in 80 runs. Even if third base isn’t his best position, the Twins were interested enough go after him earlier this month. Even if you’re taking on salary, you’ve got to give up something. And the Twins could have come up with a competitive package.
I know that Bromberg and McCardell are worth tracking. And I know how the Twins covet their pitching prospects. But notice that I didn’t throw out Jeff Manship, Rob Delaney, Anthony Slama, Tyler Robertson, Brian Duensing Philip Humber, Michael Allen, Cole DeVries or any other pitching prospect I’ve heard good things about. Maybe the Twins just didn’t want DeRosa that much after all - but they sure seemed fired up about him during the winter meetings!
Update: Here are DeRosa’s career stats. Should we look at last year as a power fluke? If DeRosa is more of a 15 homer, 75-RBI guy, maybe the Twins felt it wasn’t enough of an upgrade at third base. I might not be as puzzled as I was when I started writing this - but it still seems like Cleveland didn’t give up much to get him. The prospects I mentioned are clearly better. Again, the Twins seemed fired up about getting him a few weeks ago!
Cleveland has had a good offseason. In addition to DeRosa, they signed Kerry Wood to close and traded for reliever Joe Smith. With Travis Hafner and Victor Martinez coming back after injuries limited them last season - as Cleveland actually played better after trading C.C. Sabathia at midseason - the Indians must be seeded first in the division with spring training about six weeks away.
And there will be 19 times next season when the Twins will get to see what they could have had in DeRosa.
513 Responses to "Mark DeRosa is traded to the Indians….and the Twins couldn’t top THAT deal?"
There you go. LEN3 is calling out the FO. That is odd that the Cubs said they needed an OF and then took three pitchers. Perhaps something else happened to change what they needed after the Twins stopped talking to them?
Signing Punto for $8 million seems more important.
Ridiculous! I can’t believe the Twins didn’t get him given this package.
Agree with you LaVelle… I went right to John Sickels site and noted none of them were on there. I knew Gaub was a Gopher, but hadn’t even heard of the other two. The Twins minor leaguers names that you mention - Mulvey and Swarzak were in my Top 10. McCardell and Bromberg were in the 17-23 range. Arias was 50. Steedley wasn’t. In reality, Cleveland got DeRosa for pretty much nothing.
Lavelle call the Twins and ask them this same question let us know there response!
Lavelle
I completely agree, it is ridiculous that the Twins did not offer 3 or 4 of some combination of Mulvey, Humber, Bonser, Swarzak, Robertson, Manship, i mean the list goes on.
This was a big miss by the Minnesota Twins because as you mentioned you miss a player who hits 20 HR and drives in 85 rbi. Also as you can see from what cleveland gave to get Derosa, it did not cost a current big leager.
Way to go Bill Smith. If you to conscerned to give up one of our starting pitchers to get a third baseman why not then go after Derosa since a big leager was not reqired?
FIRE SMITH
Bill Smith must be satisfied with sitting on his hands and letting deals slip by.
I guess we are really hinging the season on a breakout season from all of our starting pitchers and bullpen.
Once again the Twins sit on thier hands and do nothing to improve. Glad we waste our money on back up infielders because our manager has a man crush on him. What a joke!
No wonder the Twin’s have the reputation of being frugal(Cheap) and not willing to deal with other teams!
Wow, I was really wishing we were going to get him to. I guess the FO took the wrong time to spend time with the family. Oh well, looks like Buscher and Harris. But who knows, we may be complaining about nothing. I mean, you cant do worse than last year right?????
I’m not a big DeRosa guy, so I really am not concerned that the Twins didn’t get him… but if they were interested, they certainly could have put together a much better package.
La Velle,
Gaub is close to Slama. The Twins would probably have to give Slama plus Swarzak/Mulvey plus another of the Beloit guys) for one year of a 34 year old who started hitting only when moved to the bandstand the Cubs call home. Too much. The Cubs got a steal. Swarzak/Slama/McCardell would/should get more than DeRosa…
Bill Smith is a terrible GM. How is it that Cleveland can be so savvy with basically the same payroll limits. Fuentes only signs for 8.5 mil a year. Twins could have spent that and had a huge 1,2 punch in the back end of the bullpen. Joke!
The only legitimate reason for not getting Derosa from the cubs would be if Smith almost has a deal going for Beltre, Koozminoth, or someother legit 3B… but I would be willing to bet my left testicle that is not the case since Smith is a joke of a GM
One year of DeRosa is not worth including Swarzak, Mulvey or Robertson. Humber, Bonser, Manship, McCardell, Bromberg - that’s another story.
Me and thrylos on the same page? Might want to log this one for the record books…
i hear ya LaVelle…but, i think the twins are being smart by not making some of these moves…to be honest with you, i think with the end of the live ball era (aka steroids era) organizations like the twins (and devil rays) will rise to the top…youth,athletism and pitching will be the most valuable commodities in the game…thank god, the twins farm system is solid in those areas…plus, everyone is concerned with the situation at 3b…i remember a certain platoon in 1991 that worked well enough to win a WS (i can rembember people saying “how can we win with scott leius and mike pagliarulo at 3b?”…it makes for an exciting off season to bring in new guys, but i think a winning foundation is already in place…keep saving and make a few moves for a strong push in 2010 when a bigger stadium will fit what the twins do well…just my opinion, thanx for your time, andy in pa.
aha! I’m glad I clicked into this blog. I was looking to respond and it wasn’t up in the blog section on the front page. I knew you’d come through.
Anyway, I thought I read somewhere, though I don’t remember where (very reliable, eh?), that the Cubs wanted at least one of our top 10 prospects for him. I recall it being two top 10 but I can’t say for sure, it was a few weeks ago by now. Derosa isn’t worth that for one year, in my eyes at least.
Why is it that other teams ask for Slowey, Baker or a couple of top 10 prospects for guys that don’t come near their equal value? I guess they hope we’re desperate when we look for a trade. I’m glad BS isn’t that stupid.
There is no way I would have traded two top 10 prospects for Derosa and the Indians sure didn’t either. I would love to aquire Beltre but the Mariners would want Slowey, Baker and a top prospect for him, I bet. Heck, why don’t they just ask for Mauer and Morneau too?
The A’s got Holliday for a steal and now the Indians pull the same. I didn’t really care if we got Derosa or not but I wouldn’t have hated it.
Thrlyos
You wouldn’t give up slama, mulvey, and some beloit player for a guy a right handed third baseman who gives you 20 HR and 85 rbi with defense for sure no worse than Buscher? that makes absolutely no sense. You must be the type of person that overevauluates all of the Twins prospects
It does seem like when the Twins come knocking people want the moon and starts (Garza, Liriano, Baker, Span), and then wind up dealing for “less” with somebody else in the long run…
I actually like the fact the Twins don’t spend big money and try and make smart trades. I don’t like the fact that our farm system is low on big bats/impact players. How many speeding CF type guys are we going to draft? Span, Revere, Hicks – how about a bopper!
Me and thrylos on the same page?
I would never blame the Twins for not getting a position player in his mid thirties, unless he is a proven star/league leader material. That’s the reason I was so dead set against a potential Blake deal…
DeRosa wouldn’t hit 20 homers and drive in 85 runs with the Twins… he’s not a middle of the order hitter.
no surprise here, ol T backs up the front office. Smith and the rest of the Twins FO could send Morneau, Mauer, and Nathan to the white sox for Toby Hall and ol T would find some way to back it.
T,
Perhaps that could be the repercussion from last years’ deals?
Tyler,
You wouldn’t give up slama, mulvey, and some beloit player for a guy a right handed third baseman who gives you 20 HR and 85 rbi with defense for sure no worse than Buscher?
Nope if that ’some guy’ is 34 years old and his only 20 hr season came in Wrigley Field. On the other hand, I would give what the Cardinals gave (a fringe prospect) to get a 29 year old SS who hit 27 homers while playing home games at Petco Field and makes the same with that ’some guy’…
no surprise here, ol T backs up the front office.
For f**k’s sake. Do I need to go back and repost that entire list of complaints I had through 2008?
I doubt it would be useful, as your type would just skip past it and make the same stupid comment in two weeks anyway.
At this point I’d settle for another Batista/White signing. Do something, Smith! We’ve got to be the only team to have made no major league acquisitions so far!
Perhaps that could be the repercussion from last years’ deals?
You thinking the Garza deal? I suppose a team could look at the Twins need for a hard hitting IF and think they could get something like what the Rays got for Young.
At this point I’d settle for another Batista/White signing. Do something, Smith!
If all you want is “something”, Nick Punto was signed.
The Twins want to stay young and Punto is younger than DeRosa. The BS GM skills are killing me.
DeRosa is not the answer for the Twins…glad he is out the picture…let’s get Hardy from the Brewers or a legit power-hitting third baseman!
If you haven’t noticed, it’s been a quiet offseason for most teams. Today is probably one of the busier days with Fuentes signing and this trade.
Although I think DeRosa will regress from last years stat line to one more like 2006 or 2007, I think he still would be an upgrade over what we currently have. Cleveland grabbed a guy with high OBP with some power and a OK fielder…good move.
I think are front FO is snoozing this offseason…make that since last years trading deadline.
Is anybody else surprised Manny doesn’t have a home yet?
What I find interesting is that DeRosa is treated as if he were Manny Ramirez/Mark Texeira/ARod or something…
in 11 MLB seasons DeRosa had 69 HR
for comparison’s sake, in 9 MLB seasons Mike Lamb had also 69 HR.
T
So you do agree that Derosa is an upgrade and the Twins should have gone after him?
Jason Pridie didn’t qualify as a left-hitting outfielder? Him and a couple of the low-A pitchers LEN mentioned might of worked out well for both sides.
Both the Garza & Santana deals. May be other organizations perceive a weakness in the Twins’ FO abilities. That would be a reasonable assumption.
T says:
December 31st, 2008 at 2:01 pm
Oh great, either we’ve got an imposter going again…or the Strib boards are once again borked.
I know at one point I was logged in as LEN3, so hopefully that’s the case.
“Is anybody else surprised Manny doesn’t have a home yet?”
Nope.
So you do agree that Derosa is an upgrade and the Twins should have gone after him?
That other T at 2:01 was either an imposter or a Strib glitch.
Given the maturity level of some users around here, I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s the former. Though issues I’ve had today give me hope that it’s the later.
I’ve noticed the last few years a trend with potential trades with the Twins and teams turning around trading for what appears to be “lesser” players.
So it’s either the Twins Farm System is overrated or the players are not rated as high as us Twins fans believe our prospects should be rated.
Or there might be a preception within baseball circles of being “taken” if you trade with the Twins (i.e. Pryzenski for Liriano, Nathan and Bonsor, etc).
Or BS is just trigger shy after last year. Or a combination of all three?!?!
“Jason Pridie didn’t qualify as a left-hitting outfielder?”
Jason Pridie… Milton Bradley… Um, no, Pridie likely wouldn’t cut it.
Twins Fan in CO: I don’t think it’s overvaluing when LEN’s referencing several books and barely is able to find anything on the guys the Tribe gave up.
Makes me wonder if the Rox are asking for Slowey/Span what they’ll end up getting from some other team…
Though issues I’ve had today give me hope that it’s the later.
I should add that this glitch displays the email address that you use when you post.
Which is why I hope I’m not the only person using a junk email to prevent somebody else getting hold of my personal one.
Tyler,
Derosa would potentially be an upgrade, but not much more of an upgrade if the Twins hand the 3B job to Harris full time and send Buscher to AAA where he belongs. There are upgrades and upgrades. DeRosa would have been a similar upgrade for next season as Lamb was slated to be for last. The Twins really do need need to upgrade a Chevy Cobalt into a Malibu, but they should shoot for the Cadillac or the Corvette and go after players like Glaus and Beltre instead off players like DeRosa.
LaVelle,
I am 100% with you, but you yourself said the Twins organization is on vacation.
They dropped the ball. To allow DeRosa to go to a division rival for next to nothing is yet another notch against Bill Smith.
I am sorry if I always end up being negative, but this has to be looked at as another failure on Bill Smith’s resume.
Lavelle said:
“The belief at the winter meetings was that the Cubs needed a left-handed hitting outfielder, which the Twins don’t have to offer. ”
Jason Kubel?!
but this has to be looked at as another failure on Bill Smith’s resume.
BC, this is as much a failure for BS as it was letting Cabrera go to the Tigers last season or Holliday to the A’s this season.
if you want to talk about BS failures this season, look at the extension he gave Gardy for starters…
BC
Exactly, the Twins being on vacation this offseason will really screw us over. The Indians are starting to look good again
Thrylos
I really feel like there is no comparison between derosa and lamb
Jason Kubel?!
Left handed, yes.
But I don’t think you’re going to convince an NL team to take a risk on Kubel’s knees.
He’s unfortunately a DH for life. Or an emergency OF for an AL team.
This shows me that when they say they are interested in a player, they are just out and out lying to us as fans, to give us hope. Like when they say they have money to spend, and then don’t.
Their philosophy has not changed. Do not trade youth for proven players. Do not sign guys or trade for them when they are in their prime earning years. Do not sign any FA under the age of 30 (and preferably only ones that are clearly not any good anymore, or never were). Build from within through the draft. Trade your best players (because you are too cheap to sign them) for young players.
None of that has changed. The trade for Young was an aberration that did not work (yet). Does anyone think they’ll be able to sign Mauer to what he’ll be worth (unless Mauer offers a hometown discount)?
I’m really bummed for Nathan. He only has a couple of years of left, and the Twins are wasting them. But, this is what Santana and Hunter said they were….always playing for a future that never comes.
A one-year wonder Cub reject/salary dump for a couple/three undistinguished minor leaguers?
Tribe may have a need for that potential bullpen arm when Wood returns to the DL.
The ex-Cubs make Cleveland the top seed? Kind of like the Tigers were a year ago? Get a grip, LEN3. Way too much ado here about next to nothing.
I really feel like there is no comparison between derosa and lamb
Both 6′1″, 205.
Lamb: .277/.417/.333 69 HR, 345 RBI
DeRo: .279/.422/.348 69 HR, 352 RBI
I really feel like there is no comparison between derosa and lamb
Based on what?
here are their career numbers (age next ST):
DeRosa (34): .279/.348/.422 69 HR, 352 RBI
Lamb (33): .277/.333/.417 69 HR 345 RBI
pretty similar methinks; and DeRosa played 2 more seasons than Lamb
You might hope that DeRosa would have been better than Lamb as a potential Twin, but unless he did that, numbers are all you have…
Joe Crede- No trade required. Yeah, he has injury issues with a bad back, but Scott Boras says it is “fine” and Scott Boras would never fiddle with the truth. All kidding aside, nobody is offering anything to him and he remains unsigned.
Take a flyer on him with an incentive laden contract. If he produces, great! If not, he will still be cheaper than Mike Lamb etal.
thry: It’s the MO around here these days. Any player that has a chance of coming to the Twins is a washed up vet and not worth it (or a cheap attempt at appeasement)
Until he goes elsewhere. Then he would’ve been the savior.
Even if his career numbers are comparable to a guy that was viewed as a cheapass signing and dismissed without a peep from this area.
listen I am not going to pull out stats because i am too lazy to do so, but i know from just just observing that Derosa has only been used with some consistancy the last 3 years, and those last 3 years, especially last year were very good, and he had many clutch hits as well mind you.
If you really think that next year mike lamb will have a season anywhere close to Derosa next year, you are horribly mistaken… me thinks
especially last year were very good, and he had many clutch hits as well mind you.
Like Mike Lamb’s walk off against Papelbon.
agreed, the same people who called the Everett/Lamb/Hernandez deals as retreat acquisitions (of course prophets after the fact) are complaining about the non-deals with DeRosa and Blake and while still crucifying Ryan for the RonDL deal they are urging Smith to sign CreDL…
I agree that in retrospect those moves did not work out but chances are that similar moves will also not work out. The Twins should set their sights a bit higher than that since they have the financial flexibility.
Careful thry: People might start thinking we’re the same person.
Sadly, it does appear as though the Twins’ supposed “interest” in DeRosa was just another FO smoke screen. Obviously, any real interest and they would have easily topped Cleveland’s package.
I’ve tried to give the FO as much slack as anyone, but when they consistently fail to bring in anyone that they “try” to get, it gets to be almost comical.
Clearly, the organization is not concerned about improving this team in 2009. They’re going to rely on status quo and trust that the fans will show up anyway, perhaps just to bask in the nostalgia of the final year in the Dome.
There is a difference between:
1) Saying you have no interest in a player;
and
2) Saying you ARE interested, but the price is too high - THEN finding out the price is ridiculously cheap.
#2 is the deception that the Twins FO just played on the media (LaVelle, JoeC, etc) and the fans.
#1 is honest
#2 is DISHONEST!
Twins FO,
Please just tell the @#$%@#$%@#$%@#$%@#$% TRUTH!!!!!!!!
Teams change what they’re looking for all the time. Remember that Garza was untouchable for two years or so and then was dealt for Delmon Young.
At the beginning, DeRosa probably was worth a OFer to the Cubs. Then when nobody (including the Twins) would give one up…they changed their minds.
For what the indians gave up it might have been worth a gamble but the guy didn’t hit until he went to Wrigley. He was average at best in Texas. In Atlanta he was awful. Take him out of the national league and out of Wrigley and put him in the dome and I think Buscher and Harris will produce better. Even in 07 he didn’t produce terribly better than Buscher/Harris. I think last years power was a career year and he would relapse next year even if he stayed in chicago.
I would still like to have him but I don’t think it is a terrible move not to pick him up.
Well, Happy New Years everyone. I guess the Twins didn’t want to give us something to celebrate about. But I cannot blame them for not giving up three or four of the guys mentioned frequently above. I expect there is some truth to those who believe that Mr. Smith is a bit gunshy after his two “big” moves last year. I also suspect they do not believe that Derosa is that much of an improvement to give up the players mentioned. Although it appears the Indians got him for a lot less than Twins fans would gladly deliver.
and those last 3 years, especially last year were very good
agreed. However he is 34. And he played in a pre-depression era bandstand of a field. The chances that next year he will have a similar year are very slim.
here is another player (third baseman mind you) who is younger than DeRosa and last year hit .250/.342/.583 (.333 isoP) 12 HR/ 132 AB. Career isoP .225. On paper, he seems like an ‘upgrade’. He was a free agent this year and signed an one year contract with the Mariners for $1.4M. Should the Twins have gone after Russell Branyan?
Sadly, it does appear as though the Twins’ supposed “interest” in DeRosa was just another FO smoke screen.
JC: I normally respect what you say on here…but I can’t believe you’re falling into the “OMG smokescreen” crowd.
By that definition…no team is EVER actually interested in a guy unless they aquire him.
“The Twins should set their sights a bit higher than that since they have the financial flexibility.”
This. Seriously. They have something like $20MM to spend (counting what they didn’t spend last year). I’d like to see them go after a guy that isn’t washed up, never was, or never will be. Pat Burrell at DH, Kubel in right. Span/Young/Gomez fight it out for LF/CF and move on with life.
Exactly La Velle Why couldn’t the twins got DeRosa if that all the tribe gave up to get him maybe the Twins will acquire the Indians failed third baseman Andy Marte and why aren’t the Twins getting 8th inning relief?
TWO QUESTIONS:
1)If the DeRosa price came down, why weren’t the Twins maintaining telephone communication with the Cubs at the time of the price reduction?
2)How long does it take the Twins FO to take down their @#$% X-mas decorations?
Although it appears the Indians got him for a lot less than Twins fans would gladly deliver.
I’m sometimes glad Twins fans don’t handle trades.
Sure. We’d have Adrian Beltre at 3B, and Mark DeRosa at 2B. Maybe even Hardy at SS.
But we’d be without Humber, Bonser, Slowey, Span, Baker and probably half our Minor league system.
If third isn’t DeRosa’s best position, then we were right to pass on him …
If the DeRosa price came down, why weren’t the Twins maintaining telephone communication with the Cubs at the time of the price reduction?
Because Cleveland was already on the line?
Apologies to Skip Scramble: that friendly Strib Glitch is popping up people’s emails/names instead of my own.
DeRosa likely will play 2B for Cleveland, with Cabrera moving to SS and Peralta moving to 3B. It’s a nice trade for Cleveland… but in reality, how much of an improvement is Derosa over Harris?
The Twins probably opted out of this deal because they are working on a deal for Hanley Ramirez. How about that for a rumor?
but in reality, how much of an improvement is Derosa over Harris?
That’s not the point. DeRosa is NEW. He’s a white night in silver armor on a gilded steed.
So what if he’s older than Lamb with only slightly better stats. Obviously HE won’t turn out the same way.
OBVIOUSLY!…
Well put T…
Without CC Sabathia and Casey Blake, the Indians still have some hills to climb.
Aaron Hicks can develop into a bopper many people believe. This guy is going to be a great player for many years to come for the Twins.
I’d guess this would make one of Cleveland’s infielders available and/or remove at least some of Ty Wiggy’s negotiating leverage.
“I would never blame the Twins for not getting a position player in his mid thirties”
RonDL White, Mike Lam, Tony Bautista
Yeah the Indians definitely arent set. Their SP isnt that great. Fausto (fluke) Carmona as the ace they are improved, but there is no dominant team in the division.
Good point Fran. And I think most people would rather have Wiggy than DeRosa.
But I dunno if you’ll be able to get the Twins or Tribe to agree to work together. Either team could end up regretting that move 19 times a year.
in reality, how much of an improvement is Derosa over Harris?
not much. 2009 projections:
DeRosa:
Bill James .273/.354/.430
Marcel .280/.359/.439
Harris:
Bill James .272/.334/.409
Marcel .271/.334/.416
This upsets me, becuase I don’t want to enter the season with a platoon. We do it every single season.
What upsets me more is Smiths comment earlier this off-season saying that they are happy having the same team from ‘08. No upgrades, will it ever change?
Meanwhile, Smith and Gardy sit around smelling their own farts.
I will always support the Twins but every offseason I throw up time and time again.
I agree with Thrylos that there was a shortstop out there to get earlier. Greene hit 27 home runs in one of the worst hitters park in the league a couple of years ago. They gave up next to nothing for the guy and is under team control for a few more years. It will be interesting to see who has the better year. DeRosa or Greene and I am betting it is Greene.
“That’s not the point. DeRosa is NEW. He’s a white night in silver armor on a gilded steed.
So what if he’s older than Lamb with only slightly better stats. Obviously HE won’t turn out the same way.
OBVIOUSLY!…”
No one has suggested that DeRosa would be a savior. The point LEN was making is that the Twins said they were interested but couldn’t beat Cleveland’s unimpressive offer.
Some one will eventually win the job at thirb base Buscher is terrible against lefties
I will always support the Twins but every offseason I throw up time and time again.
I agree 100%. I’ll never be able to walk away from this team, but I’m done getting my hopes up every off-season. They never do anything and are always satisfied with what they have (at least this year).
From now on, I’ll assume nothing will happen, and if something does, then I can be ecstatic.
Well said saam. It’s all about the flat out lies coming from the FO.
If Harris is played as an every day player fine. However, that will never happen.
I wonder what will the Indians do with Andy Marte now. A few years ago he was probably the number one third base prospect in the minor leagues. There is also Jose Fernandez that we could probably get for a minor league contract. He has hit over 20 homers a season lately in the Japanese League.
I’ll give the Twins a pass on DeRosa. I think that was a fairly steep price Cleveland paid, and I doubt DeRosa will put up another 118 OPS+ season.
However, there’s still the Wigginton option, and that costs nothing but money. Money the Twins have to spend.
“I don’t want to enter the season with a platoon.”
What is the negative about a platoon? Baseball is about matchups, and if the team is better with a platoon, it makes sense. I mean, I guess it was nice back in the day when Jacque Jones played every day, against lefties and righties…
there is no dominant team in the division.
I think that’s most of the trouble.
Fans want the Twins to make a move and stake clear claim to a division that’s right there for the taking.
But there’s not much motivation to be bold. The Twins were a couple of runs from the postseason last year, despite losing Neshek, without a solution at 3B, yadda, yadda and I don’t think the competition in the div has approved all that much and may even have regressed.
Since Gardy refuses to play Harris, the comparison escapes me, frankly.
As for him being a white knight, who here said that? The TWINS said they were interested in him, but the price was too high. If this is the price, and they wouldn’t pay that, what would they pay for a player?
Khalil Greene
OBP
2008 .260
Lifetime .304
No thanks!
Thrylos and T…
I agree for the most part.
however I am not saying that DeRosa would have been a savior here. I am saying yet another player that the twins could have gotten to help fill a void is gone, and for what it cost Cleveland it was well worth the risk… and comparing those pitching prospects to what we have I think we could have easily made that deal.
Is that a better way of putting it?
Sorry, T… but you can only defend this FO for so long.
They’ve got salary room under their self-admitted 50-52% of revenue guideline.
They’ve got clear needs for more RH hitting and a set up man in the pen… and there have been legitimate upgrade candidates available both in trade and as free agents. Yet they’ve done nothing but talk.
They have consistently (and conveniently) just not quite been able to make deals.
With last year’s moves, I was hopeful that Smith was going to be a GM willing to take some chances in order to make an effort to improve the product on the field when opportunities to do so existed… something TR was loathe to do.
The evidence so far indicates last season was an aberration.
So, just let me understand…
We are upset because the Twins Front Office isn’t telling us everything they are working on and all the specifics?
Maybe what Bill Smith should do is spend a day out of his time each week to send out an update on all of their discussions and negotiations and trade offers and trade requests, and their strategies for the next week, and exactly the dollars and players names involved in everything.
I love platoons, Seth, although in these days of 12 and 13 man pitching staffs they’re a little harder to accomodate.
However, I HATE any platoon which contains Brian Buscher manning third base.
approved, also known as improved
Yes, it appears the Indians signed DeRosa for very little, but I am not convinced that thirdbase is a major need. Spend the money on a DH like Adam Dunn or Jason Giambi. Giambi could spell Morneau at firstbase. Shore-up the bullpen.
I guess I shouldn’t say I don’t want a “platoon”. I don’t want to enter the season with a Harris/Buscher platton.
Buscher doesn’t do much for me, and his defense is hard to watch.
Smith must have something BIG up his sleeve!!!
JC: Given Mark DeRosa’s career numbers…the Twins would’ve been just as well off keeping Mike Lamb around for another year.
I’m sure that would’ve blown over well.
Hey Sid I was just saying that for what they gave up for Greene was probably well worth the risk. Especially since he was not a one year rental. I go to many Padres games and he helped carry that team in 2007. He was in a bad slump last year and was then put on the D.L. I think he will rebound nicely this year and outshine DeRosa when he is away from Wrigley.
However, I HATE any platoon which contains Brian Buscher manning third base.
My thoughts exactly. Can’t stand the idea of Buscher playing nearly everyday (since a bulk of the matchups with be RH).
“I really feel like there is no comparison between derosa and lamb”
Fangraphs has some stats that are similar to BP’s WARP that attempts to value a players offensive and defensive stats and comes up with a total value based on runs for each player. They then convert that to wins.
Here is the case for DeRosa over Lamb:
DeRosa
2006: 572 PA 3.1 wins
2007: 574 PA 3.1 wins
2008: 593 PA 4.3 wins
Lamb
2006: 422 PA 2.2 wins
2007: 353 PA 1.6 wins
2008: 272 PA -1.3 wins
DeRosa has contributed more to a team then Lamb with the difference being in that one is a part time player and the other has played closer to fulltime.
But,even beyond that, if you normalize the PA’s Lamb contributions have been declining while DeRosa has increased.
Having said that, both are well into their 30’s and if the Twins go after one of the other alternatives like Beltre I would be Ok with that.
Problem is it sounds like Beltre is a pipe dream. Also, the Twins have stated they had an interest in both Casey and DeRosa and have failed in both attempts. I am one that’s hoping for an upgrade at 3B rather than standing pat with what they have.
” I don’t want to enter the season with a Harris/Buscher platton.”
So, who do you want? and how much will you pay or trade to acquire them?
We are upset because the Twins Front Office isn’t telling us everything they are working on and all the specifics?
What I don’t get is when the Twins don’t say anything the complaints are that the Twins never seem interested in anybody or anything.
Yet when they do make statements about who they’re looking at and what they’re interested in, it’s all treated as lies.
Lose/Lose.
I agree JimCrikket
i wouldn’t mind a weekly email from Bill Smith telling me whats going on. 
I’m not an expert at evaluating professional baseball players. The Twins employ several people who get paid well to do that.
So, over the past couple of years, we’ve heard from various sources that the Twins have identified a few 3Bs that they “like”… I assume that means someone has felt they would be valuable additions.
Wigginton and DeRosa both have been “sought” by the Twins in some manner… both could have been had cheaply… but now they’re apparently not worth any effort to get at all.
Atkins and Beltre both have been “inquired about”, but conveniently, their respective teams want too much in trade.
I just find it disconcerting that there’s always 100 reasons for not bringing in help at positions of need.
There’s still time before Spring Training starts. I hope I’m being premature in my criticism.
Hey Seth what do you think of Jose Fernandez if we could sign him to a minor league contract? Also what do you think they will do with Marte now?
So, who do you want? and how much will you pay or trade to acquire them?
I think I’d rather have Harris by himself, simply because it’d mean not so many butchered plays.
I’d love Kuzmanoff, because he seems like the cheapest person via trade (outside of DeRosa). But this thought is a dream the way this off-season has went.
WE cannot rationally expect that Bill Smith should tell us what he’s being capable of.
damn it… two conversations at once, lol.
We cannot rationally expect that Bill Smith should tell us what he is working on.
(on the phone, and someone said capable, and I zombied that one… lol)
Anybody have thoughts on Joe Crede as a possible cheap signing with some major incentives?
Wigginton and DeRosa both have been “sought” by the Twins in some manner… both could have been had cheaply…
Wigginton is looking for something bigger than “Blake money”.
Atkins and Beltre both have been “inquired about”, but conveniently, their respective teams want too much in trade.
Do you want to give up Span & Slowey to get Atkins? How about Beltre?
“So, who do you want? and how much will you pay or trade to acquire them?”
I wanted Furcal. Cost? Nothing but money, part of which the team gave to Punto instead.
I would’ve liked Blake. Cost? Nothing but money.
I’d settle for Wigginton. Cost? Nothing but money.
I’d LOVE Beltre. Don’t know the cost. I’d give up one starter not named Liriano, Baker, or Slowey, plus a decent prospect, and not even blink.
I’d be calling about Glaus/Rolen every day, and would give up one starter not named Liriano, Baker or Slowey.
There were options at the start of the off season. Those options are dwindling.
I want the front office to stop with the excuses, and friggin get something done already, so the team doesn’t have to enter 2009 with Punto at short AND a Buscher/Harris platoon at third, which will inevitably lead to the Twins being in the market for a friggin’ infielder next summer, or worse, out of the race.
TT: Joe Crede would be signing a guy to sign a guy. He’s got a history of injuries, which likely won’t fair well on the turf.
I see it turning out like Rondell White. They sign him, he gets hurt early in the season, and maybe only has one or two weeks of contributions.
I’d love for the Twins to sign Crede.
i wouldn’t mind a weekly email from Bill Smith telling me whats going on.
It’d be really short anyways
I don’t care if they tell us what they are working on. But, i consider it misleading to state they have money (like they said at the trade deadline last year) to spend to make the team better, but never do spend that money. I find it misleading to tell us they want certain players, but the price is too high, only to have those players go for what some consider reasonable prices.
Seth, way to throw out a straw man. It always works to distract from the real discussion. No one here has ever asked for BS to tell us everything he is working on. But, when he does tell us stuff, it should be the truth. I’m not convinced this team wants to spend up to its 50%. I’m with Torii and Johan, this team plays for a future that never comes.
Chief: You should probably say how much money you’d be willing to spend on those guys which are “nothing but money”.
I remember you said something like 7 mil for Wiggin.
But, when he does tell us stuff, it should be the truth.
That’s the problem…how does one “prove” that they had interest in a guy?
I know this sounds unpopular - but maybe standing pat is the best option. We don’t know what was offered. Buscher/Harris combo at 3rd should produce 12HR’s, 75 RBI’s, and a .275 BA.
Punto (gulp, for $8m) will be good defense at ss. If Gomez and Span can get on base and the other guys stay healthy our offense should be OK. If our yong starters improve and our BP doesn’t have a bad month (or roadtrip)we should be competive. Also, it allows our cream to rise to the top (and milk to drop) in the minors. I look for next year to be more active on the trade front as several of our players become arbitration eligilbe. We’ll be picking and choosing who to keep and who to trade.
T, I’m not in a position to say who should be added and at what price… and seth, I certainly don’t advocate that the FO broadcast their negotiations.
But facts are facts, guys. Other teams are finding ways to improve their on-field product. The Twins have not done one damn thing to improve themselves. Nothing. They have responded to reporters’ questions with comments that indicate they’re expecting to improve merely by having existing players improve their performances.
If that’s the best a Front Office can do… if they have no more ability to use their imagination and negotiating talents than that… they deserve criticism and I won’t apologize for doing so.
As I said, I’m hoping that I’m premature. But they’ve shown me nothing worthy of defending, much less praising, this off season.
I’m not in a position to say who should be added and at what price…
That to me seems like a great way to set yourself up for a win/win.
You never suggest an option, that way you can always argue that what was done (or not done) was worse than some hypothetical “better” you never lay out.
It’s called “moving the goalposts”.
I think an incentive laiden contract for Joe Crede with a possible option for 2010 would be great for us. I also think they should take a flyer on Jose Fernandez on a minor league deal too. The free agent class for 2010 season is very thin at third and in general. There is no better third baseman then Beltre available but I would love for the Twins to try to sign him to an extension rather then just a one year rental.
“But, when he does tell us stuff, it should be the truth.”
“That’s the problem…how does one “prove” that they had interest in a guy?”
By saying that “WE DID NOT OFFER AS MUCH AS CLEVELAND OFFERED, EVEN THOUGH CLEVELAND OFFERED VERY LITTLE”
bottom line is what do you think is going to happen…..this should be know surprise on what has taken place today
There were options at the start of the off season. Those options are dwindling.
Meh. Only if you count Blake and DeRosa and Greene. Or Furcal——whose agents ticked off the Atlanta FO so much that the Braves told them not to bother trying to sell them on any of their other clients for the foreseeable future.
Other than those three or four, everyone else who was available apparently is still available. And as vacancies get filled, like with DeRosa today, the free agents in the group lose leverage–unless they want to risk being without a chair when the music stops.
Crede will not come to the Twins.
1. He has injury issues (bad back).
2. He wants big money and is a Boras client who doesn’t settle.
3. His overall goal is a longterm deal but may have to settle for a 1 year deal to show that he can stay healthy. In order to do that he will sign with a team that plays most of their games on grass so as no to aggravate his bad back.
By saying that “WE DID NOT OFFER AS MUCH AS CLEVELAND OFFERED, EVEN THOUGH CLEVELAND OFFERED VERY LITTLE”
So basically: “We admit to whatever will agree with sid’s opinion.”
Trading and buying players is no guarantee of improvement. With the loss of Santana and Hunter, last years Twins should have lost 88 games instead of winning 88 games.
That might be a fair criticism, T, if it weren’t for the fact that I HAVE advocated signing Blake… and Wigginton.
I liked the Lamb signing last season and I liked the trade with the Rays… I said so at the time and I’ve not turned around and criticized the organization in hindsight.
All I’m saying is, “fine, Bill… you don’t want the guys I’ve advocated for. But you NEED RH hitting and you NEED a set up guy. It’s your job to improve this team in the off season and just expecting existing guys to play better is not earning your pay.”
I absolutely refuse to believe there is NO RH hitter and NO set up arm out there available that would improve the Twins.
I’m glad we didn’t make this trade. I’m going to turn every pitcher in A into Cy Youngs. It’s only when a pitcher won’t listen to me is when I let Uncle Bill trade them…Matt Garza! It doesn’t matter that he pitched decent last year; it won’t last long. Look at every other Twins pitcher to leave and think they’re going to be good elsewhere (don’t bring up Santana because I know he pitched decent and will for a while but that’s because I turned him into a 2 time Cy Young up here in MN). For all others, all I can say is that it doesn’t last long if at all. My next prediction will be Reyes. He’s only good in a Twins uniform. If he signs elsewhere, he’ll be cut mid season because that pitching coach thinks he’s their new set-up man or closer and just blow games. There’s a reason I told Gardy to sometimes only let him make 1 pitch and then pull him!!! And we’ll still have a Sup. pick because of my work. And then I’ll turn that Sup. pick into another Cy Young!!! I am so good at what I do!
Trading and buying players is no guarantee of improvement.
Very ture. But being satisfied with the same producte every year isn’t good either. Smith came right out and said they’re happy having the same team and hoping players would just get better.
While players can all get better, someone could get hurt or get worse and you’re right where you started.
T,
No.
Just let the FO tell us why the price for DeRosa was too high for us and very low for the Indians.
And look directly into the camera while speaking. (or lying)
Fran, I hope that is the strategy. But, it’s rarely happened, that prices dropped for players and a team was able to swoop in and get a guy for next to nothing.
T:
$6MM signing bonus
3 years, $12MM per year
For Pat Burrell or Adam Dunn. I’d be good with either of those. They get $14MM per year, but some of that money is front loaded with the money they didn’t spend last year (meaning they can at least try to re-sign Mauer).
Then I’d deal one of Span/Gomez/Young for something (I don’t know what minor leaguers or whatever are available out there).
“Chief: You should probably say how much money you’d be willing to spend on those guys which are “nothing but money”.”
What does it matter? The Twins have the money, and neither Furcal nor Blake have signed for something out of the Twins range. Wigginton won’t either, I’ll be surprised if he gets much more than Blake.
Blake publicly stated ‘first team to offer me three years gets me’ and yet the Twins go in with a 2 year offer. They had no intention of signing Blake, it was a PR smokescreen. Had Blake wanted four years, the Twins would’ve found a way to offer three, had Blake wanted two, the Twins would’ve ‘drawn the line’ at one.
It’s pretty obvious the Pohlads are using the reduced payroll to pay for their stadium contribution, and that’s wrong, IMO. It’s just plain wrong, particularly when they have a team that is a couple decent parts away from being a legit WS contender.
I hope they prove me wrong. I doubt it.
I’d love Kuzmanoff, because he seems like the cheapest person via trade (outside of DeRosa). But this thought is a dream the way this off-season has went.
But less of a dream than if they had successfully acquired Blake, DeRosa, Greene or Furcal. Landing any of them likely would have taken the Twins out of the game, for sure.
Now, they are still free to feign interest/lie (eyeroll goes here) about the other options, including Kouz.
Bill Smith said it himself he likes this team. Don’t expect any transactions. Another light hitting team especially from the right hand side. The Twin’s got exactly what they want there competitive enough to put butt’s in the seats but not good enough to win anything(world series). It’s all about being competitive on the cheap period.
What does it matter?
Like I told JC, you gotta occasionally put yourself on the line by being willing to admit what you think is the limit when it comes to money/trade value. Otherwise you can just as easily (as some do) say it’s not enough no matter what happens.
Blake publicly stated ‘first team to offer me three years gets me’ and yet the Twins go in with a 2 year offer. They had no intention of signing Blake, it was a PR smokescreen. Had Blake wanted four years, the Twins would’ve found a way to offer three, had Blake wanted two, the Twins would’ve ‘drawn the line’ at one.
So by this statement I take it you would be more than content to give Blake 7 million a year for 4 years guaranteed?
Blake didn’t make his comment about three years until the Twins AND Dodgers had both only offered two years (with an option for a third).
The Dodgers blinked first, caved, and gave him the third year guaranteed + a 4th option year.
So no, the Twins didn’t lowball him after he went public. They made their offer, and stood pat when he demanded more.
Thatta boy LaVelle. This trade outs Billy Boy and Co. Easy to pretend that you’re “trying” to improve a team. I completely agree that you can pencil in the Indians at the top spot. I forgot about the Smith acquistion for their pen too.
Mauin worries for 09:
1-will the starting pitching hold up?
2-will the BP be consistant?
3-will Span and Gomez get on base?
4-what will DY do?
5-INJURIES!
Standing pat:
Fangraphs player values:
Buscher
2008: 245 PA 0.4 wins
Harris
2007: 576 PA 2.1 wins
2008: 490 PA 1.2 wins
I have seen some projections for Buscher and he is expected to improve a bit. That improvement with a few more atbats will give him a value in the 1+ win area.
Harris is expected to regress toward his 2007 numbers.
Also, if the Twins platoon like they say they will, Buscher will see more AB’s at third then Harris.
Unless Buscher suddenly finds his glove and they both breakout offensively, I don’t expect much.
Chad,
Nonsense.
The Twins could spend more money, win games, put A LOT OF BUTTS IN THE SEATS, and make a LOT OF MONEY.
THAT is a do-able goal also.
Then I’d deal one of Span/Gomez/Young for something (I don’t know what minor leaguers or whatever are available out there).
Mike…you previously said you would put Kubel in RF…you really believe he is an everyday outfielder…and to the point you’d rather have him out there than Span or Gomez? Seriously?
I’m gald Mike’s not the GM.
LEN and Twins Territory..What makes you think DeRosa is THE answer…..2nd is his best position not 3rd.
Twins are better off with Buscher and Harris……..
Take that to the bank.
That is what the FO thinks and I think they know more than you and most of the Twins fans………
As long as the Twins have any three of Cuddy/Young/Span/Gomez….Kubel should not see the OF.
Just let the FO tell us why the price for DeRosa was too high for us and very low for the Indians.
The reports before today (as LEN even state) was that the Cubs wanted a OF (preferably left-handed). There’s an older report from LEN himself regarding this.
It’s quite possible that the price dropped on DeRosa and Cleveland was the first one to get to it.
How do you think the trade process works? Do you think Smith is on the phone every hour calling a team asking “How about now”….”Now?”….”Now?”
T, just tell me… what has this FO done to improve the team this off season?
They admitted, to reporters, before the Winter Meetings, that they had needed to improve some areas.
What have they done?
The Twin’s got exactly what they want there competitive enough to put butt’s in the seats but not good enough to win anything(world series).
I don’t think you have to be incredibly, unbelieveably, overwhelmingly good to win the World Series.
I think the Twins, even if they stay status quo, are as good or better as most of the recent champions. Phils, White Sox, Cards all won it all recently with teams that were not super-fab. It’s just takes a decent team that can qualify for the tournament. Then, anything can happen.
They admitted, to reporters, before the Winter Meetings, that they had needed to improve some areas.
You’re complaint will be valid once the offseason is over.
It is not.
I will join you in being upset once the offseason is over. Since that’s the reasonable thing to do.
No, for D I’d rather have Span or Young. But, you need to play both D and O, if Burrell or Dunn is on the team. I think that Kubel would be good enough in the field. I’d rather have the combo of Kubel’s O and D, than the combo of Span’s O and D (right now anyway).
T: then how do YOU make the team better? If you add a DH, and get rid of Kubel, how big is the offensive upgrade. You don’t seem willing to add any of the 3B available. Or, are you happy with this team as is?
“Like I told JC, you gotta occasionally put yourself on the line by being willing to admit what you think is the limit”
How many times, in how many ways, do you want me to post it?
I don’t care, I’m still on the Wigginton bandwagon and find it hilarious that this team was all about him the past two years, and, all of the sudden, when he is available, there are serious concerns about his defense (gotta be better than Buescher) and “splits.”
Now that you can scratch a team with a 3b need off the list (Indians), I gotta think the years and money he is looking for has gotta come down too.
Kudos to Billy Boy and Co. if their patience will pay off and they get him for cheaper. And if they aren’t even making an effort, then look out AL Central. Brian Buescher and Brendan Harris are standing pat and coming for you.
Sid I agree I’m just saying that’s the Twins goal be competitive and put butt’s in the seats
T - Maybe July 28th will be the time to be upset.
Fair enough, T, since I’ve also stated that I understand there’s still time to make improvements and I hope I’m premature.
You have more faith that real improvements will still be made than I do. I hope you’re right.
But then, right after I wrote that, that the Giants are still on board for Wiggy, and will likely sign him my hunch tells me.
T: then how do YOU make the team better?
Let me see if I can find that post from a while back…
T,
No, Smith just has to say:
“Call me back before you make a deal”
“Especially if it is for less than the following offer:
Player X, Player Y and Player Z”.
Its called BUSINESS!
That is what the FO thinks and I think they know more than you and most of the Twins fans
I hope to God they know more than me. It is afterall their job, and they scout players I’d think nearly everyday.
But if Buscher gives the team production at third, I’d be shocked. I personally expect him to cost us more in the field than he produces. I hope I’m wrong, but he didn’t leave much of a lasting impression with his defense in ‘08 (I actually liked him in ‘07).
The reports of the Cubs wanting a LH hitting outfield had little to do with the DeRosa trade.
They wanted to trade DeRosa to clear salary space in order to add Milton Bradley…as the LH hitter. Even better, he’s a switch hitter. I’ll bet my last dollar they sign Bradley soon.
That they got pitching back, which they might be able to flip for Peavy, is gravy.
They never stated they needed a LH hitting outfielder for DeRosa.
For the record: (as posted in an earlier reference)
What would you consider the “ceiling” would be on an offer to Wigginton before you’d consider it too much? (For reference: I’ve said about 36/4 or 30/3)
Also, what would be the max you’d be willing to give up in order to bring in a guy like Atkins or Beltre? (For reference: I’ve suggested Cuddyer/Kubel + Perkins/Slowey)
Keep in mind that you’d have to also figure in that Beltre would need a contract extension before 2010 rolled around.
As another point of reference. I consider the following players untouchable.
Mauer
Morneau
Casilla
Span
Young
Baker
Blackburn
Mijares
Nathan
The following are guys I’d hate to see go without something coming in to replace them, but wouldn’t be sad if they were dealt for a need.
Breslow
Buscher
Harris
Gomez
I left out the four listed as starting points for a trade, because it should be obvious that I wouldn’t be adverse to seeing them dealt for a need.
T
It’s not like the Indians blew the Cubs away with their offer. I wold have thought the Cubs would have come back to the Twins to see what Minnesota would offer unless they had a reason to believe the Twins wouldn’t beat that deal.
I’ve said several times that once the Twins signed Punto it didn’t make much sense to trade for DeRosa. I’m not complaining that they didn’t make the trade. I just agree with LEN that it is strange that they couldn’t beat the Indians low offer for a player they claimed to have interest in.
T: is willing to complain, or support the front office. I see someone called him out earlier this thread. That just isn’t true. He and Jim and thrylos are both positive and negative about this team and the FO (though JimC seems to have lost patience over the last few weeks).
What I can say, is that I love talking about this team no matter if it’s July or December!
“Call me back before you make a deal”
Is that seriously how it works? Do you think Bill Smith is standing outside the Cubs FO holding up a boombox with some Peter Gabriel wondering “Why didn’t you call?”
“Especially if it is for less than the following offer:
Player X, Player Y and Player Z”.
Seriously? Is that how trades work. No. Really. I’d like to know if that’s really what they do these days.
USAChief: the cubs just cleared about $5MM in salary in another deal. They can now sign someone if they want to, I believe. Remember, though, they are for sale and won’t sell to Mark Cuban (if having the Yankees is so good for baseball, how is not adding Cuban?), so they may be in a slight cost cutting phase.
But, you need to play both D and O, if Burrell or Dunn is on the team. I think that Kubel would be good enough in the field. I’d rather have the combo of Kubel’s O and D, than the combo of Span’s O and D (right now anyway).
But if you have Burrell or Dunn and they produce like you want them to, I think Kubel’s offense is less necessary. I would rather have Span and Gomez in that case. They play good-to-great D and it’s been awhile since the Twins offense has been as fun to watch as that comeback game against the White Sox when those two set the table and showed off their speed. I could get used to that.
I think Bill is still on his Christmas vaction. Likley the reason he didn’t know about this steal of a deal.
Everyone is saying that we need to panic and sign some players that aren’t all that great. Personally, with Neshek gone for another year I believe their biggest need is a set-up man. Work a deal or sign a free agent, but give us a set-up man and I am happy with this Club in 2009. And what is wrong with expecting improvement from last year’s team…aren’t most of these guys (Gomez, Span, Young, Casilla, Buscher, Tolbert, Baker, Liriano, Perkins, Slowey, Blackburn) young and shouldn’t the majority of them be expected to play better next year?
T,
If the Twins would just make an offer for DeRosa, (or whomever else they are actually interested in) then the Cubs would have gotten back to them before giving the guy away.
How difficult is that? (if they actually WERE interested.
I just agree with LEN that it is strange that they couldn’t beat the Indians low offer for a player they claimed to have interest in.
It’s not strange if the Cubs demands changed and they never bothered to inform anybody after Cleveland met them.
As sane said in a previous thread, it’s not in a teams best interest to start shopping around with “X gives me this…can you beat it?”
Fran, I’d be ok with that deal (losing Kubel’s bat to get Dunn or Burrell) but I think I’d rather have both bats in there. I can see why others would rather have the better defense, though.
(it’s nice not being at work, and posting w/o guilt….)
If the Twins would just make an offer for DeRosa, (or whomever else they are actually interested in) then the Cubs would have gotten back to them before giving the guy away.
Is that for certain? Is that one of the rules of a trade?
I don’t see the bullpen as the biggest issue (that could change if things go bad early ). I think we need another bat in the lineup, ecspecially with Punto at short.
yeah, mike, I’d say my patience is wearing thin. It’s frustrating to see the competition making moves to improve their product on the field while the Twins stand pat.
It’s just almost like the FO expresses interest in players right up until they reach the point where they might actually be able to make a deal… then they’re no longer involved. It has happened too often for it to just be coincidence, imo.
I’ve made the trip to Spring Training for a few years in a row now… but at this time, I’m not planning to go this year. There’s nothing new to see there that would make it worth the effort.
I hope things change over the next few weeks.
Oh christ….I apologize to Columbo. I’m still seeing random people’s emails occasionally. Sometimes I catch it and sometimes i Don’t.
I promise those users I am not tracking their emails when they pop up.
I’d also like to know what the Strib is doing to stop this, and recommend until it’s fixed that users stop using real emails.
roger, if that was true, there’d never be a failed prospect, and the KC Royals would be the best team in the division. Some guys get better, some get worse (for instance, Delmon got worse…). It is certainly possible this team has enough players to be good, but I believe that is more likely if they add a DH/corner OF or a 3B (or both - I would have said SS/2B with Casilla moving to SS, but that isn’t going to happen now).
T, I’ve noticed this a lot today too. I keep seeing the most recent posters’ e-mail and whatnot.
T
I agreed with sane in the previous thread. But that was about Garza/Young. A completely different situation. And they didn’t have to say what Cleveland was offering, they only had to say, “Are you still interested in DeRosa and what’s your best offer.”
T,
YES.
One of the rules of a trade is that, given two offers, a team will generally accept the better offer. (Even if they have to make a phone call!)
JimC, I’ve noticed the same trend also, and posted about it a couple of times last year. Everyone they publicly express interest in gets warts or just barely too expensive, once they actually get “close to acquiring them”. We’d all be better off if they just never talked about any interest in any player.
The Twins obviously believe they can pitch their way to the Central Division. They think Cuddy, Boucher and Young will take the next step offensively and that they can run a shuttle between Rochester and the bigs to keep restocking the pitching staff.
I’d be OK with the Twins trading both Cuddyer and Kubel for bullpen and/or third base help, and signing Burrell to DH.
That leaves an outfield of Span/Gomez/Young left to right, Burrell at DH, Pridie as the 5th outfielder, plus whatever you get in return to add to the pen and/or third base.
That’s a better team, IMO, than the current one, and unclogs the OF logjam. I’d hate to see Kubel go, but you can’t get something for nothing.
I wouldn’t be opposed to trading Span in the right deal, either. I’m still not sold on him, and you’d be selling high to a team in need of a center fielder, of which the Twins seem to be overstocked.
My point Mike is just that in total, we should expect the large group of young players to get better as a group. Will some go downhill from last year, certainly. But I believe it is reasonable to expect the group, as a total, to play better.
You have more faith that real improvements will still be made than I do. I hope you’re right.
I know some last year didn’t see it as such, but I felt that the Young/Garza trade and the extensions for Cuddy, Nathan, and Morneau were signs of a change in philosphy.
I think they rushed resigning Punto, as I don’t think there would’ve been much demand aside from the Phillies (who apparently were close a few times). I think they could’ve waited into the New Year and he’d still have been around. Ultimately for cheaper. This would’ve made the need for a new starting SS (or 2B depending on where Casilla went) a bit more dire (thus making it harder to bargain), but I think it would’ve calmed the masses here at home.
I still think there’s hope for Wiggy. He wanted more than “Blake money”, but the fact he hasn’t been signed yet means there isn’t exactly high demand for his services (and he’s probably one of the better 3B FAs out there at the moment).
There’s still also Orlando Cabrera out there, which I don’t think the Twins have expressly voiced an interest in, but could be a huge help.
I think either Cabrera or Wiggy (or BOTH if there was some lucky star out there) would be a significant upgrade to the infield. I’d argue Cabrera would be a bigger one as he gets Punto’s bat out of the everyday lineup. 
what has this FO done to improve the team this off season?
there is still time; however this front office made a big tactical mistake this off-season:
They extended Gardenhire, thus giving the message that mediocrity on the field (i.e. 2 years of no postseason), doghouses and favorites in the clubhouse and people assigned starting jobs without earning them (Cuddyer, Punto) are causes for reward.
It is not about one or two specific players; it is about having an organization winning mentality and developing, promoting, rewarding and acquiring players not to do things the “Twins way” (whatever than may mean) but who excel on the field and a system that develops their strengths and uses them to win ballgames (instead of trying to morph them into some sort of a platonic ideal).
It is not about single players…
and unless the Twins’ ownership realizes that and makes the necessary changes, I am afraid that there will be no world series victory celebration parades in the Cities…
Bruce…
The front office, and Gardy himself have said that the team had spots that needed to be upgraded.
Now they are changing their tune and saying they are happy with what they have.
I think we have the right to question them on WHAT THEY HAVE SEEN to change their minds because there are players at every position of “preceived need” out there that are better than what we have on the 40 man roster.
Except, Roger, Buscher’s not ‘young.’
He’ll be 28 next year, and has been in professional baseball since 2003.
Chief,
Age is relative.
Buscher is young compared to DeRosa, Blake, Wiggy and you.
Buscher is not young, he’s just been in the minors for some time. I’m not sure how much better Span can be, but if he’s just as good, that’s better than what they had for the first part of the year.
All of the pitchers you mentioned were about what most people expected, though having that group and not having Hernandez should help. Casilla could go either way. He clearly has the talent, but it’s not clear he can play at that level all the time. Gomez cannot be as bad on O as he was last year. He was really, really, really bad (but great on D). I’d think of all of those, Gomez is the most likely to be better.
I’m torn on Delmon. I’ve ripped him a lot, but that has almost entirely been on his performance last year, not on his potential. I remember the guy that absolutely destroyed AA and below. But, I also remember that guy that has not done anything much the last three year (two in the majors, and one in AAA). I’m just not convinced he’s good. He could be, he really could be. I just am not convinced.
mike ww,
hate to have another DY conversation, but:
1. last year it was his age 22 season
2. have a look at the age 24 and age 25 seasons of Kirby Puckett and compare
3. Danny Valencia (the anointed savior at third base) is a year older than DY. Have a look at his age 22 season…
The only thing that will keep DY away from a breakthrough season some time soon is Gardy.
The only thing that will keep DY away from a breakthrough season some time soon is Gardy.
And his inability to hit the ball in the air.
thrylos,
Is there any natural catastrophe in history for which you DON’T blame Gardy?
Unfortunately Bill Smith was too busy downing his 8th chicken leg at the KFC all you can eat buffet to answer the Chicago Cubs call about Derosa
“The only thing that will keep DY away from a breakthrough season some time soon is Gardy.”
And his inability to field in addition to working a count and getting a better pitch to hit.
sid,
I don’t blame Gardy for any off-field catastrophes…
I hope the FO takes advantage of the weak demand for free agents and picks up a good player for a bargain in January/February.
I was disappointed they didn’t offer more than the 1.3 mil that Joe Nelson got from the Rays.
thrylos, Im not a big Gardy supporter, but that said Im also not sure a change in manager would have been the right move either. I tend to think you make that kind of move when your team is in some kind of downward spiral or you’ve bottomed out and need a total rebuild.
This team could, with a few critical improvements, be very competitive and making a managerial change would be a risk. You might get someone better… someone who could get just a little bit more out of existing talent. But you could also get someone that would blow up the clubhouse or fail to get the same level of performance from this talent.
Given that the most likely change would have been to promote someone from within the coaching ranks of the organization, I’m just not convinced it would have been a good idea. That doesn’t mean I love the job Gardenhire does… I just don’t see a change as being advisable right now.
meow
ok… that wasn’t me. I’m definitely not a cat person.
thrylos,
But you have said that Gardy can’t be deemed a successful manager until has won a ring.
If being the VERY best, or being a failure are the only choices;
How successful are you, at what you do?
(whatever the hell that is)
JC,
I am not talking about firing him. He was under contract for 2009. They should have extended him after that based on how the team did in 2009. With what they did they gave the message that loosing is not only acceptable but it should be rewarded…
I make love with you mother, and yes I am successful
they did they gave the message that loosing is not only acceptable but it should be rewarded…
Except Gardy’s only had a losing season twice since joining the Twins. (Or was it only once?)
Thrylos have you heard anymore about Brandon Lyon?? What do you think of Jose Fernandez if we can get him for a minor league contract??
But if they didn’t renew him early, his agent would have insisted that he go free agent at the end of his contract and there’s no way he would have re-signed with the Twins with so many big market teams going after his services.
Oh… wait… nevermind. I keep getting Gardy and Morneau mixed up.
If being the VERY best, or being a failure are the only choices
Not quite. These are not the only choices but the pressure to win it all should be compounded as the time one has in a manager’s post increases. The problem with Gardy is his bad game management, his stubbornness with players (tell me how it makes sense having Reddog as the #3 hitter when he is in the lineup) and his favorites and doghouses. That costs the Twins games.
thrylos,
“I make love with you mother, and yes I am successful”
No you aren’t.
Because my father was better.
So that makes you a failure at that by your own criteria.
Oh great, an imposter. My money’s on the Jeff/Ken/John schizo who’s popped up recently.
I agree that Gardy makes many mistakes.
I TOTALLY DISAGREE that all managers without rings are inadequate managers.
Gene Mauch for example.
“What is the negative about a platoon? Baseball is about matchups, and if the team is better with a platoon, it makes sense. I mean, I guess it was nice back in the day when Jacque Jones played every day, against lefties and righties…”
I’ll give you a couple negatives about a platoon. First, it’s an extra roster spot that could be filled with somebody with more versatility than Buscher or Harris or another bullpen arm to keep everybody fresh. Second, a platoon doesn’t take defense into account, only offensive matchups, so a stiff like Buscher can see the majority of the time at 3rd base.
be compounded as the time one has in a manager’s post increases.
That’s only true if he’s provided with either a consistent or increasing base of talent with which to work.
Considering the FO wasn’t able to keep Santana and Hunter for Gardy, you still expected him to win the World Series this year?
tell me how it makes sense having Reddog as the #3 hitter when he is in the lineup
I’m sure somebody has the Twins record when Redmond was 3rd in the lineup.
“(tell me how it makes sense having Reddog as the #3 hitter when he is in the lineup)”
Because lineup construction really isn’t very important in the grand scheme of baseball. I would probably argue that routine is much more important to players than lineup construction - especially in a one game scenario.
thrylos98,
My bad!
I should have noticed the capital “T” and realized that was an imposter.
That, plus you have more class than that jackass.
I’m sorry about that!
“I’m sure somebody has the Twins record when Redmond was 3rd in the lineup.”
I don’t have the team’s record, but while batting 3rd in a lineup, Mike Redmond has posted a career .330/.371/.380 line.
It makes me wonder how much of the insults, trolling, and overall ugly crap is caused by imposters vs. actual commenters.
I don’t have the team’s record, but while batting 3rd in a lineup, Mike Redmond has posted a career .330/.371/.380 line.
I know there’s a site that tracks it…is it just like “Baseballstats.com” 
Pete D, that’s an awfully low slugging percentage for a 3 hitter, even worse than Mauer’s.
He’s got a decent OBP in that spot, for what it’s worth, considering it’s Mike Redmond clogging up the bases.
I’m sure somebody has the Twins record when Redmond was 3rd in the lineup.
15-13
I agree that Gardy makes many mistakes.
I TOTALLY DISAGREE that all managers without rings are inadequate managers
I agree with both statements. My point is that if a manager has given several years to win and did not, a team is better off to try a different guy to win.
Considering the FO wasn’t able to keep Santana and Hunter for Gardy, you still expected him to win the World Series this year?
I expected him to take this team to the playoffs (as a reminder because of the Hunter and Santana moves and the FA signings, I picked the Twins to win 89 and the division in 2008 before the season started; remember?)
What do you think of Jose Fernandez
I am not sure that I know of him 
sid,
no need to worry about trolls… no offense taken
I picked the Twins to win 89 and the division in 2008 before the season started; remember?
Yes yes, you pat yourself on the back about that one all the time. Twins came within one game of the true postseason.
You’ll argue it was because of one bad decision made by Gardy, and I’ll argue it was because of one bad game by Justin Morneau.
So really it comes down to opinion, and perspective.
T…
How can you consider yourself a fan, and not have the Twins record with Redmond batting 3rd in the lineup memorized for the last 3 years?
But allow me to give my opinion on why it makes sense to put Redmond in the 3rd hole.
1. It keeps everyone else in their position in the lineup.
2. He’s a professional enough hitter to handle it for 10-15 games a year
3. He drives in about as many runs as Joe Mauer does per/AB if not more (and I’m sure someone has that stat too!)
4. If our biggest gripe about Gardy is how he bats the backup catcher… I think it’s safe to continue to rip Bill Smith, and leave Gardy be.
5. Gardy has bigger problems than where to bat the backup catcher… like knowing when and when not to pull starting pitchers, and which reliever to bring in. Musical pitchers is not a good concept, and burning out your best is a poor option as well.
T, it is not about patting in the back, it is about expectations. All I am saying is that these were my (very public) expectations for 2008 and were not met. That’s why when I hear about ‘how well Gardy did with that team’, I call foul, because he didn’t.
That’s why when I hear about ‘how well Gardy did with that team’, I call foul, because he didn’t.
Based on your expectations.
My expectations for 2009 are 162-0.
If Gardy can’t meet those expectations, then FIRE THE SOB!!!!
It’s funny, because my expectations (with the exception of record) were pretty much dead on.
The Twins would struggle, leading to many very upset fans.
I gave it a high chance that the Twins would put together a run at some point in the season, leading to the return of the “One-Bat” (TM) rally cry despite comments that the team was unsaveable following the loss of Hunter, Santana, Silva…and the aquisitions of Hernandez, Lamb, and Everett.
Ultimately leading to the Twins falling short of the playoffs.
Anyone thinking that Billy Smith is stockpiling cash for resigning Mauer in the next couple of years? I wouldn’t be surprised if Joe draws one of, if not the biggest contract of any catcher ever — and apparently the Red Sox already are salivating over having Mauer on their team in 2011.
Maybe BS shouldn’t have wasted 8+ million bucks on a utility guy…
My expectations for 2009 are that Buescher has more throwing errors than RBIs and ends up back as AAA by the end of the year. Book it.
Harris will end up in the doghouse once again and is either given away or completely benched. Book it.
Tolbert and Punto both end up as starters throughout the year and the infield outside of Morneau come in at 9 HRs for the year. Book it. With Morneau’s total included….28 HRs for the year. Book it.
A career utility infielder whoose best position is 2nd base is not the Twins answer to the lack of power at 3rd base. Good for you Bill Smith. Go after Beltre and/or JJ Hardy hard.
Mauer in Fenway?
He will hit 100 doubles off the Green Momster every year.
jkucenic,
Book it?
You’re on!
For which Book it Sid??? All three or is there one in particular?
T,
The ONE bad decision by Gardy was starting Liriano against KC in that final seeries. Anyone with even a 2.00 baseball IQ KNEW he would get shelled.
Regards,
I have been patient with Bill Smith to this point and now Im just angry.
Name ONE good move the man has made ONE…somebody…PLEASE?
Mike Lamb
Craig Monroe
Adam Everett
Livan Hernandez
Add the trade of Santana when it appears the Boston package would have been better in hindsight if it was ever offered…. I have also heard Pelfrey was once offered to the Twins in a Santana deal, and that came from Buster Onley of ESPN…. whats true or not we can only speculate, I love Gomez but the rest are suspects…
Re sign Punto…yes….Re-sign Morneau, yes. I love Cuddy, but bad contract…
Terry Ryan never made big moves, but I trust Terry Ryan more then Mr. Smith.
Im sorry Bill…but I want the Twins to win the division, no hard feeling.
jkucenic-
I agree about Buscher. I think the organizations overconfidence in having play almost every will kick the team in the butt this season if they don’t make a big acquisition at 3rd. Heck, injuries and FieldTurf aside, bring in Crede! — oh wait, that would require cash wouldn’t it…
Adam,
Based on WHEN they were made and a logical guess as to why(the purpose) they were made, ALL of Bill Smith’s moves were arguably successful.
Also, WHEN you produce either an untampered tape, or a certified transcript as to the phantom “Boston” deal for Santana, all the rumors are just that…rumors.
Regards,
A few points:
1. Buscher never figured out how to hit until he was 26 years old. One third of his at bats were against left handed pitchers and he still hit .294. He’s a pain to watch in the field, but his hitting might be interesting in 2009.
2. DeRosa should be a Twin, as we have pitchers to burn. He should be at second base and Casilla should have a fair chance to win the SS position.
3. Punto’s salary was silly. No one was bidding except the Twins against themselves. A great glove, but he wouldn’t have gotten that kind of money from anyone else.
So there! Happy New Year to all.
You’re dead on Eric…All those “stand pat” on 3b folks are seriously kidding themselves.
You can throw all the stats you want at me. Buescher is not a platoon or everday option at 3b for a team that considers itself a contender of some kind. His fielding, in particular, is horrendous. It just is. DeRosa would’ve been an upgrade. Wiggy is an upgrade. Crede is an upgrade. The list goes on and on.
I actually don’t think Harris is a bad player. But should merely be a solid middle infield, utility option.
What sucks is that the Lamb deal has completely paralyzed Billy Boy I think. So, yeah, that didn’t work out too well, but it doesn’t mean you should settle for average while you’re best players (mauer, morneau, nathan) aren’t getting any younger.
Billy Boy himself has said they need to upgrade the infield. Now, this Derosa trade outs Billy Boy.
Oh, and for what it’s worth… I don’t even care that much about DeRosa. I’m a Wiggy guy.
ummmmm sorry there Dragon….Wrong name. Those last two are from me.
For the record the Dragon posts at 5:11 and 5:12 are someone else.
Regards,
Stopping by too read the posts, before going out to celebrate the New Year, it’s really too funny, and even LaVelle is infected.
I remember less than 1 year ago, Denard Span was the WORST 1st round pick in history. That says it all.
Regards,
If any of the 4 or 5 guys trying to win the 3B job stands out comes through next year than any “missed” trades will be forgotten. And they are all 27 or younger. Spending alot of money to bridge to a time when a prospect might be ready isn’t always a good thing. I say let them play and it will sort itself out.
Buscher never figured out how to hit until he was 26 years old. One third of his at bats were against left handed pitchers and he still hit .294
against LHP Buscher had 48 PA and hit .205/.250/.205 last season. The guy cannot hit lefties. That said, how about the guy who let him have those 48 PA last season?
Adam Boz,
Adam Everett IMO was a good signing. Cheap. We never got to see the healthy Everett. His throwing shoulder was injured. His confidence was down. He had many years where a very strong argument could be made that he was the best defensive SS in MLB. And a good guy. Just what the Twins look for. Without his injury I think people would have been happy with him.
thrylos -
Agreed. Gardy is a treat, though what kind is a question. Clearly he does some things right, but Punto starting & Buscher batting against lefties are things that cause one to wonder.
Thrylos –
Jose Fernandez has been playing in the Japanese league for the past 3-4 seasons averaging around .300 with 20-25 homers per season. He was property of the Angels a few years back and absolutely tore op the Pacific Coast League in AAA. Bill Smith maybe gun shy of him as they do not want a repeat of the Tony Batista signing. I think they should definitely look into him for a minor league contract though.
T,
I agree with you that 98’s evaluation of Gardy is based on his own preseason expectations which may or mat not have been realistic. 98, your opinion is not the gold standard by which we should all measure a manager’s performance.
Paul -
I think that’s probably fair about Everett. And yes, we would have been pretty tolerant of a truly fine fielding SS, even with a weak bat.
I don’t know…
I predicted the team to win 74 games last year. They won 88.
I see the potential for the team to improve to 95 wins this year, but I also see them dropping to 80 games because too many young kids can regress as fast as progress.
I just want to see 1-2 veterans brought in. One at 3rd, one in the Pen.
For the person above asking for one good move Bill Smith has made: Craig Breslow.
I agree that the Twins made a good move with Breslow. Other good moves were Hawkins, and the kid Tampa signed but they were not made by the Twins.
Great last post on TWINS TERRITORY! I think it reflects what most people on here think about Bill Smith.
I have been a Twins fan for as long as I can remember…and the Twins over the years seem to get stingier by the year…GM Smith talks about needing to be agressive and pick up players for key poistions for the organization…and what does he do? Well we still need a third baseman, (Punto is o.k.but.)right handed power hitter and relief pitcher(s)…so what are they paying this man for? Seems to me he should just stay at home if hes not going to, or is not allowed to get these players the Twins need.What a joke…
F*ck this team. I hope their new ballpark burns to the ground.
That would be tough considering that right now it is all steel, concrete, and snow Rambo
BC: I can see a struggle this year. Casilla and Span will no longer be as big a “secret” as they were last year (I call this the Ford Factor).
I think Young will bounce back, as part of his struggles are likely that same situation. Likewise, the starting pitching should be somewhat more solid, as they’ve all gotten their first full seasons out of the way now. Fatique will still be an issue, but less so as it was in 08.
The big question marks (barring trades) will be Span and Casilla at least maintaining if not improving, and if Mijares is more like what we saw in 08 or if that was a happy accident.
Also, finding a way to get Morneau some rest so he doesn’t falter when we need him most.
And Jeff/John/Ken: Craig Breslow was actually a pretty smart pickup. Though it remains to be seen if that was a fluke or for realies.
Jeff,
ok, now I know who you are talking about. The problem is that he is 34-35 years old. If BS would like to take a flyer on minor league free agent 3B, he should probably try to lock Vasili Spanos. He is Buscher’s age and much better player than Buscher.
Frankly, when I look at BS, I just see a titular head for some reason. I think that his most unfortunate quotation was “this organization values continuity” when the Twins’ haven’t won a world series for 17 years and three times in that span expansion clubs won it…
Go Yankees!
when the Twins’ haven’t won a world series for 17 years and three times in that span expansion clubs won it…
…And with the exception of Florida haven’t been back. (Well, can’t count TB yet)
Hey T
Or whoever you are.. I just posted that I thought and anyone who is a knowledgable Twins probably would agree that the Breslow signing was the best Smith has done.
I don’t understand why you are grouping me in with those others.
Thrlos My mistake as I thought that Fernandez was 31.
I am just getting so disgusted with Bill Smith and now it even appears that La Velle is wondering what is going on too in that front office.
Fatique - is that the new French lefty we signed?
T,
you don’t get the point here…
Smith said that ‘this organization values continuity’
the fact is that the last 17 years this organization did not win a title
why the hey would anyone value that continuity?
[…] Twins Insider – […]
No move took guts and a vote of confidence to existing players. Plus a look ahead to future contract obligations. No prob Bill, your’e doing what you have to do.
Thrylos
What orginization did Vasili Spanos play for last year? Good post on following our guys in winter ball at the tenth inning stretch. While the Yankees and Indians etc. are celebrating there off season moves we can read up on that!!
T-
I am not worried about Span because the one thing that doesn’t seem to be a fluke or one year wonder kind of thing is plate discipline, and he showed it last year like I wouldn’t believe. He made a believer out of me.
I don’t see Casilla being as good as last year, but I also see Gomez and Young being better than last year. I think Kubel and Cuddyer are about as good as they will be…
My big concern is those young pitchers. There are books on all of them now… It is in their hands to all get better, and I’m not sure if they all will.
As for the bullpen. They need to get one more veteran arm that is going to be a steadying force… we would all love Cruz, but I wouldn’t mind Lyon at all. Heck, even Tom Gordon if his arm is healthy… Just someone to be a calming force for the kids.
The Twins don’t have a lefty outfielder to offer? Really? Bill Smith should have jumped at the chance to offload Jason Kubel. Minnesota sports fans must agree that Kubel is the baseball equivalent of Pierre Marc-Bouchard: too much hype for an eternally mediocre player.
Chris,
but no one considers Kubel an OUTFIELDER.
He is a DH that can sub in the OF if need be.
i am not upset that we didnt get derosa, as i dont believe he is the answer at 3rd base-we need a solid power hitting/rbi guy–derosas history does not show that- but it does get depressing that we watch our competition continuing to try and better themselves, while it appears that we may be sitting on our hand–bill smith i hope that is not the case– i will be pissed if i see wigginton sign with someone in the american league other than us, as he is the only true homerun hitting guy that i think is still available for cash only….its very important to keep this team intact as its solid as hell, but does need 2 vets like bc beneke stated earlier …one at 3rd and one in the bullpen….btw for you twins fans - i ordered and received today seths book on Twins Prospects 2009 and its awesome…i havent had a chance to read it all but its loaded with information that i know would never know otherwise…very well worth picking up from his website….happy new year twins fans….
i hate the idea of trading to pick up someone that we need as i have said over and over i want this team to stay together, but if we do trade these are the only guys i am willing to part with imho….buscher,kubel,harris, perkins or blackburn not both and anyone in the minors except Hicks and Revere….thats not alot to deal with unless a team is willing to live with prospects….
What orginization did Vasili Spanos play for last year?
Marlins
Sorry to say this, but La Velle is a glorified rube.
Like most of you I to am very disapointed with the lack of the Twins FO making any upgrades to this team. Granted we still have Jan and most of Feb left for BS to find someone that will help this team. Speaking for myself I have no confidence in BS or anyone else when it comes to helping this team improve. now, Im sure BS has his reasons for not doing so. But we will never really know.I wonder if this team is snake bit when it comes to dealing with other teams. This is my perception of our Twins, when they approach another team for a trade, its like the other teams has alot more knowledge about making a good trade then making a bad trade. Off season’s for me are just as boring as ever knowing the Twins FO said this team needs help, but can’t find a deal they can make to help this team improve….
Cmon people, the guy is 33 and coming off a career year! Do you need to hear anything else to know that the Twins won’t give up much for the guy?? Accept this organization for what it is, not cheap, but tactful and smart with their money. If you want to cheer for a team that throws money around in the offseason, it’s high time you open your eyes to the fact that the Twins aren’t your team. The Yankees, Red Sox, and Angels, to name a few, are all waiting for you, and with a number of bad contracts on their payroll. Move on or accept what we have, but don’t waste your time calling Bill Smith a bad GM because he won’t do what the Twins have never done.
I can’t find the Twins listed in any rumors of late…
kind of sad. Nothing to even speculate.
jcoleman…
Terry Ryan made some great trades…
He drafted well, and he blew the last 18 months of his career to tarnish his legacy.
Bill Smith has made two questionable to HORRIBLE trades, signed 3 free agents last year that combined were cut 3 times, and inept most of the rest of the time.
He said that they would upgrade this team in the offseason, and then said he likes what he has.
The man is Kevin McHale’s understudy.
jcoleman…
So, are you going to lump the Indians with that group of teams you mentioned? Because I wanted, yet they have smartly added decent options to an already good and promising team for ‘09. Their front office is acting like they have a good shot at doing some damage this year, and are acting on it, and sometimes, that requires spending some money.
We’re not talking about Sabathia or Teixeira here. You don’t think the Indians could dig up two mutts comparable to Buescher and Harris to hold down the fort at 3b??? They were obviously not comfy with what they had, like Billy Boy once said about the Twins 3b options, and went out and got someone they liked. I say good for them.
We need some power production from RF and 3rd. Cuddyer does not provide even average numbers for a RF with no speed. Plus he has a very cushy spot to hit in. ANY mlb player could get RBI in his spot. We finished fine without him last year. Delmon Young will hit for more power. Trade Cuddyer (and most important it seems to the twins his salary) and get a decent 3rd baseman with some pop with a slight increase in salary.
and by “wanted” I meant “wouldn’t” regarding the Indians being lumped in with the likes of the Yankees. They are simply out GMing us.
Well, if DeLarosa was good enough I am sure the FO would have pulled the trigger. although everybody seems to want to package the top 20 propsects from these blogs. if Cleveland stole him we will see. My hunch someother move is in the pipeline or else get Crede on an incentive 2 year contract!
Win Twins!
The Crede move would make sense but….. Boras is his agent.
BC, it looks to me like the Twins think DeRosa just wasn’t enough of an upgrade to be worth taking a chance on. The Twins don’t need another Tony Batista or Mike Lamb.
The Twins know pretty much what kind of RBI production they’re going to get from their current position players.
Another thing the Twins know is that the bullpen cost them the division last year. It looks like Mijares may very well be the answer, but, he’s definitely in the unknown category.
I’d say the Twins primary need is a solid hard throwing right handed pitcher.
I think the bullpen comes under “need” and third base comes under “want.”
Right now, third base is “adequate/known.”
Which means the Twins can get by.
The bullpen isn’t adequate, is an unknown and needs to be upgraded.
Still think the Cubs would have done their due diligence and see what the Twins would have offered. I think Beltre, Koouzmanoff, Crede or Fernandez from Japan are bettter pick ups.
Doesn”t matter if Crede has Boras, Twins have dealth with him and Kenny Rogers.
Crede would be no players given up, total upside.
Win Twins!
Yeah we need bullpen help Rays signed Joe Nelson for 1.3mil,. Nelson has trouble staying healthy, but he was terrific for the Marlins last season, amassing a 2.00 ERA and striking out 60 in 54 innings. Another reasonable option for a bullpen in need. I think Smith thinks players should pay the club for the honor of playing for the Twins. But really has this guy done ANYTHING that would be considered a good move? He will probably wait until the productive players are gone then get some washed up players he can sign cheap then tell us how its what they wanted all along. they will be gone by the end of the year then… well you know the story.
Jeff:
I don’t understand why you are grouping me in with those others.
There’s an imposter (or at least a schizo) going around using Jeff/Jake/Jon/Ken to post things such as:
Jake says:
December 31st, 2008 at 8:40 pm
Pohlad and Smith? You can go phhhu-ck yourselves…
So apologies if you got grouped in with the schizo. There’s also an imposter going around posting stupid stuff under people’s names.
BC,
“I am not worried about Span because the one thing that doesn’t seem to be a fluke or one year wonder kind of thing is plate discipline, and he showed it last year”
I totally agree with that assessment.
Add to that his ability to wait until the last second and then take a short-quick swing.
AND add to that, his total lack of fear when running toward fences which is just like Torii. Gomez needs that kind of courage.
Those are three big reasons that I feel Span is going to be as good or better than last year, for as long as he remains young and healthy.
So RA Dickey is the big off season pick up? How does that sell tickets?
1. You don’t trade for a guy just b/c it might help an opponent. Derosa helps the tribe more than he helps the twins. Buscher & harris will have very similar stats to derosa’s next year. Maybe better. People forget that if buscher had 500 at bats he would have had 100+ rbis.
2. Brewers still have not added pitching. That means hardy is still a fit for us and by not trading for derosa it leaves BS with some trade ammo to make it happen.
3. Twins are in the majority - most clubs haven’t done much of anything so quit getting worked into a tizzy because they haven’t made a FA acquisition yet. Clubs are milking the sour economy for all its worth; case in point Ty Wig is still a FA….
One name I never here tossed out is Brandon Wood. How about going after him in a trade with the Angels.
“People forget that if buscher had 500 at bats he would have had 100+ rbis.”
Not likely.
Smith already filled teams needs offense production Punto - power bullpen arm Dickey.
Happy new year Billy. heck of a job.
People forget that if buscher had 500 at bats he would have had 100+ rbis.
Thanks for this and I will have to check on the numbers but I bet you, that if Buscher ever gets 500 AB he will break the all time record for errors/RBI (if he hasn’t done already)
“People forget that if buscher had 500 at bats he would have had 100+ rbis.”
Then make him the every day DH, because our current DH would only have 84 RBI in 500 AB.
Then trade Kubel and Cuddyer for something useful.
DeRosa likely is’nt going to match those numbers plus he played in Wrigley. The Twins don’t need a slight upgrade at 3B they need a significant one and Derosa was’nt it. They might as well go with a platoon of Buscher/Harris.
Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic.
Maybe it’s a three way with the Padres for Peavy and those are the guys San Diego wanted.
I’s all about the MONEY! And TV rules (noticed in the last SB how they had to hold up play when the teams almost snapped the ball when TV was not back from commercials?). Minnesota teams do not give people a happy monkey or a banana in their pants, thus money and those precious profit over people stinking thinking.
Blake,
Nah, 3b is a NEED. This team NEEDS a right handed bat with some pop to hit behind Morneau. Let that man see a pitch once in a while for chrissake. Cuddyer and/or Young (at least it seems) ain’t getting that job done. Morneau himself said he would love to see the team add a “bopper” of some kind. And you know he means to hit behind him.
This team largely sucks against left-handed pitching. They need a righty that can help stabilize the order.
Believing that it’s gee golly ok that the Twins go into the season with Buescher/Harris platoon is buying into complacency and the excuse making realm.
And I’m sick of hearing about the Lamb thing. That dude wasn’t really that good ever and resembled a washed up, lethargic dad from a sitcom. Plus, he was a lefty. Bad move, but that shouldn’t discourage them from going after a guy like Wigginton who is fiestier, right-handed, and has some proven pop.
And I’m sick of hearing about the Lamb thing.
His career stats are almost equal to DeRosa…who’s two years older.
And supposedly DeRosa was just what this team needed.
If the Twins would’ve nabbed DeRosa, it would’ve been as a 2B, not 3B.
I would rather have Harris at third for a full year rather than give up any three prospects and pay $5 mil for DeRosa. Not that much of an improvement if any over what we have now.
i have a hard time believing a harris/buscher platoon wouldn’t be able to hit 15 HR, drive in 80 and play adequate defense equal to that of derosa, wigginton or blake. so why waste the money on those players? why not keep it for international free agent signings or draft pick bonuses?
I realize thought is NOT a prerequsite for posting here, BUT if the Cubs thought the Twins could offer a better deal than what they got from the Indians they would have given a FINAL call to see if the Twins could top the offer?
Isn’t it possible that the Cubs scouts liked the Indians prospects better, for whatever reason? I realize ALL the baseball authorities LaVelle cited have a perfect record in their assessment of talent. They rightly had Revere as a “beer league” player, a pick roundly criticized on Twins blogs. A prediction…they(the “beer league” predictions) are correct, last year was a fluke. Trade Revere for a Hungarian to be named later.
You folks would bitch if you were given a ton of gold. You would complain because you couldn’t carry it.
Regards,
happy new year y’all
and I hope that the Vikes beat the Steelers (or whomever) in the Superbowl this year and the Twins beat the Mets (or whomever) in the World Series this year and that Delmon Young gets the MVP and Kevin Slowey the Cy Young…
I don’t think DeRosa will repeat his numbers from last season, but what if he does?!!
I wasn’t paticularly excited at the prospect of acquiring DeRosa, but this IS a little pathetic. It seems to me that BS and Co. are truely trying to position themselves for 2010. The hell with 2009. Whatever happens, happens. 2010 is our year. As much as I don’t/wouldn’t like that, at the same time, I actually hope I’m right. I don’t want NEXT offseason to be this bad.*
*Offseason is NOT over yet.
I should clarify that I don’t think, at least with MN, that DeRosa would’ve put up AS GOOD of numbers as last year. That’s the reason I’m not terribly upset about this one. (Though who the Indians had to give up was a little maddening).
No big loss with DeRossa. Keeps my original plea still workable.
I feel like the guy out shouting in the wilderness no one listening.
Do these three things:
Trade for JJ
Sign Pat the Bat
Sign Wiggy.
Buh bye to Cuddy, and a few others.
See ya in the 09 and beyond Playoffs.
Happy New Year all.
You gotta wonder what’s going on in the front office. Do other GM’s and agents just not want to deal with Bill Smith?
If there’s a silver lining to this, that makes one less team bidding for the services of Ty Wigginton.
Are people really this tweaked over Mark DeRosa and Ty Wiggington? They might be minor upgrades for the Twins at third, but they certainly wouldn’t be season-changing acquisitions. Bottom line is people want to see moves, improvement. With a glut of outfielders and pitching prospects, a deal should be made to improved traditional weak spots in the lineup. However, DeRosa would have been another stopgap.
I think the Twins are in the situation where there farm system is so strong when they try to trade for player they need the request in trade goes to very strength in their farm team personel. The other teams see that if Twins are interested in a player there reaction is there going to ask for some of that quality in minor league system. Then the question becomes is the trade equitable and will the risk be what there giving up and so far I don’t think management has thought so. So when somebody else makes the deal but don’t have quantity and quality that Twins have in their minor system and does deal for less makes the Twins look bad. I wonder too if other organizations are warey if they do trade with the Twins and it gives the key to the Twins puzzle and they do win it all on fairly low budget how they will look and how rest of baseball teams look. For past several years the Twins have been one or Two players away from being a dominating team. I look at last years trades Twins were 50% successful. The Young trade the twins would be much better team if theywould have kept Garza and Bartlett as it has turned out today but the Johan trade I think the Twins are going to be winner Gomez and other prospects are going to far offset the loss of Santanna. The Young Trade is why were talking about needing to trade for left side of infield. I think see what develops The Twins have Busher and I think he’s going to develop into pretty darn good player each year he has made significant improvement and he going to develop power.
I just want to comment on how the star tribuners keep ripping on gardy’s sloppy seconds (nick punto)
bc.beneke and jkucenic, you’re both probably long gone by now, but just in case…
bc.beneke: Regarding Bill, he has made one questionable trade that could end up being a bad one, but Garza didn’t fit here and wasn’t receptive to his pitching coach so we went out and got something for him. I’m not losing any sleep over him (we’ve got up to 8 guys ready to start) or Bartlett, who is just another middle infielder, albeit with some leadership. The Santana trade was an impossible situation for any GM, the Red Sox and Yankee offers were smoke screens from the start, he took the only real offer he had and for a guy on a one year contract I’m not thrilled but satisfied with what we got. All im saying is give this guy a chance, he said he’ll TRY to improve the team this offseason, he’s still got time.
jkucenic: no idea how you see the indians as comparable to the teams i mentioned. wow have they come up with a haul this offseason! a gamble on a guy who spents most of his seasons on the DL in Kerry Wood and a 33 year old that the Cubs have been trying to unload all offseason while he’s still got value. Those are earth shattering moves! I understand your frustration with the Twins lack of movement, but i can guarantee you now that our 3b platoon performs every bit as well as derosa this season. Once again, the twins dont make moves to make moves, no doubt they can frustrate during the offseason, but this is nothing new!
I dont know what thats about but enjoy another eventful offseason twins fans
and this article is a discrace to the twins front office. If your going rip the twins GM one of the twins front office members u ought to be ashamed of yourself. Im not a retard like one of them come after me im a man im 40 im not a im not a retard like them. and i hope someday the person who wrote this article becomes a GM and gets downgraded and discraced like my good friend Bill Smith and has to look back on this article and say u know what i deserve to get ripped apart like i ripped him apart. This article is a discrace it makes me want to puke.
Jake says:
January 1st, 2009 at 10:04 am
Phhhuu-ck Pohlad and Smith…
Can somebody ban this d***he already?
Get a power righthander for bullpen and a 3rd baseman with power and this team can take division. Unfortunately power costs money. The twins like money more than power. Thus once again Twins lack punch/power.
Wow.
Pathetic.
I can understand the Twins wanting to avoid long-term deals because it could hinder their ability to keep their own players.
But DeRosa only has one year left on his deal. So what’s the excuse?
And to watch him go to Cleveland?
Horrible.
But DeRosa only has one year left on his deal. So what’s the excuse?
That DeRosa only has one year left on his contract…
I really should elaborate…
In the Twins current state, they’d do better to bring in players who will be around for more than a year.
That’s why they’re relunctant to spend too much on a trade with Seattle for Beltre (unless they were to trade on condition of an extension)
I’d rather see them get a guy like Atkins or sign Wiggy, as they’d then have a few years of the guy.
The FO does not owe it to the press and certainly not to bloggers, what moves they might make.They said they want to get a right-handed power source for the left side of the infield and a reliable set up guy.The season does not start for 3 months,what’s the hurry?DeRosa= Harris.I still think Beltre is still in the mix,maybe Harris being in the Trade package.The decision on a relief pitcher should be made by Rick Anderson,not bloggers!
I think maybe next off season might be the best time to make a big move.We will knows better the potential of Go-Go and DY.Also,we will know more about Revere,Hicks and Morales.Their true trade value will be alot clearer than!
“AND add to that, his total lack of fear when running toward fences which is just like Torii. Gomez needs that kind of courage.”
Really? I Seem to remember several times when Gomez ran 100% full bore into walls. Cleveland for example. I don’t think Gomez has shown ANY fear hurting himself to make a play.
It sounds great adding him when you look at his last years stats. 21 homeruns at the hot corner would be nice. But you all fail to realize that he is 33 years old. He has one year left on contract. He has only hit those numbers once in his career. We made that mistake last year picking up Delmon Young. He was a 20 homerun hitter until he came here. Unless we get Beltre or someone else that is proven, and can play defense, we should stick with the Harris Buscher combo at 3rd. they will put up comperable numbers to whatever else we would pick up by giving too much again. ie Garza, Bartlet. You guys have to think a little bit.
LMAO at Mike Gundy at 10:28. I remember when he gave that tirade. But Mike says “Im not a retard”.
That might be debatable.
cotter999,
“We made that mistake last year picking up Delmon Young. He was a 20 homerun hitter until he came here… You guys have to think a little bit.”
Young hit 13 HR as a 22-yr-old rookie in 2007 and 10 HR last year.
You have to get your facts straight a litle bit.
Those pitching prospects that Cleveland gave up don’t sound like garbage prospect to me Len3. DeRosa isn’t the answer to our dreams. If the twins are going to trade for a power hitting infielder I think they should be young and willing to sign an extension before the trade can be finalized. Kouzmanoff or Aitkins would be more ideal.
I don’t think we’ve seen the best of Harris and Buscher either!
am i the only one who thinks the punto signing wasnt that bad?
Typical Twins. Why are we surprised? This time we actually caught them saying they are interested in a player and obviously they weren’t. They are basically lying to the fans!
This team is good enough to keep everyone interested, don’t people understand that? You don’t remember Hunter on KFAN saying that this team needs to add a few players to get over the top and that it was a frustration in the locker room? Santana had the same feelings about this owner and management.
This team hasnt signed a free agent that has been quality in at least 8 years, probably more. When is the last time we made a trade of propsects for an established above average player?
This trade of Derosa to Cleveland makes me sick. Not only did we not try to get him, which is obvious, he went to a division rival. Argue all you want, Derosa is a patient solid hitter that hits for some power. He is going to be a free agent after this year, so he wants to have another solid year.
Say what you want about not liking Derosa and some will say that we dont need him, but can this team please take some chances on good players like they do the terrible washed up ones!
My guess on how many HR’s Derosa would have hit with the Twins:
I dont know his career that well, but just a cursory view of his last three show a possible improved approach at the plate with him being more selective. He had in order 13, 10, and 21 homers. He would probably do somewhere closer to last year than the other two year, so lets say he hits 18.
I see him at about 15 HR’s in a lineup with less power and protection than the Cubs (being generous).
Factor in that he’s a year older at the typical time of decline for most players. HR=13
The numbers show that the metrodome is the WORST hitters park in at least the AL, maybe all of MLB. Take away 4 more HR’s: 9 HR.
Maybe he has more AB with the Twins: 10 HR.
Not really the protection for Mourneau we need.
Unless this is the second coming of Luis Gonzalez, the odds are more likely DY will have 20-25 HR than Derosa, and I would definitely roll that dice. I think we will soon see DY batting 5th and Derosa settling down, while Valencia or Hughes gets phased in the short term. Good non-move by the Twins.
oh, and didnt we overpay for Punto? definitely. We have Tolbert, Harris, etc. not worth it. We should’ve packaged that money into a deal for Burrell.
Happy New Years!
From JoeC blog of 12-23:
“The Twins have had conversations with the Cubs about DeRosa, though La Velle is hearing it’s less and less likely the teams will have a match.”
If La Velle was hearing that from the Twins FO, then its no wonder he is upset after yesterday’s DeRosa to Cleveland trade.
He was trying to report factual information based on what he was told, and he ended up misinforming his readers through no fault of his own.
Great call “Was a Twins Fan”……….
I’ve said this before, but my favorite so far is the Wigginton saga. I’ve heard for two years now how much they like him. Now, suddenly, he is there for a taking and fills a direct need. But, lo and behold, all of the sudden, he ain’t that good anymore and by golly wants some money. Wigginton should want Blake money. He is 4 years younger and arguably just as good.
Now if Billy Boy and Co. had a game plan to show non-interest to drive the market down for Wiggy, and will be rewarded for their patience with a reduced cost for him, then a rare kudos goes out to him. But something tells me he is not that smart.
And if Billy Boy really has no interest in Wiggy or Crede and is really satisfied that this professional team is comfy going into the season with Brian Buescher, who doesn’t know how to throw a baseball yet, holding down most of the fort, then God help us all. And even that isn’t enough.
Next year we have several players arbitration eligible. That is when the Twins will be making moves.
Cool, good deal. I say we cancel ‘09 then.
Wigginton should want Blake money. He is 4 years younger and arguably just as good.
Wigginton doesn’t want Blake money. He wants more.
Face it people, the Twins don’t and won’t spend anymore money, new stadium or not!!! Also, what does it matter when you have teams like the Yankees who can buy every known comodity (star talent) out there; the playing field in baseball is soo exagerated it is rediculous! Finally, the Twins and the Wild are almost mirror images of each other, relating to G.M. decisions, trades and other misc. components. The Vikings, at least, has an owner who trys (albeit I’d love to see Chilly gone). The Wolves are boring and so outmanned it is inconcieveable! The only thing they have going is they will have a ton of #1 draft choices and alot of contracts coming off the books. Hopefully, they will also have a new g.m. and Flip back as coach. Funny thing though, they just might up moving the team do to huge $$$$ losses. The Vikes WILL be gone after the 2010 season.
jkucenic - We’ll be very competetive in 09. I guess you think we shouldn’t have even played 08.
My favorite movie as Brokeback Mountain and I love the Pohlads.
jake / phony “T”,
Crawl back under your rock, slime ball!
I’m still intrigued with Brandon Wood. He got a taste of the bigs last year for the Angels, but is still a prospect. Trade a prospect for a prospect and we’ll have a good, inexpensive third baseman for years to come who does have home run pop in his bat. I threw his name out there last night and nobody responded. We need to look past the Wigginton’s and Crede’s of the world and find a real prospect.
The Twins are “competitive” just about every year. I want them to go that next step. Buescher/Harris combo and the same pen for this team is the formula for being “competitive.” The Indians seem like they want to win.
And I”m sure Wigginton’s camp said they wanted more than Blake. So they start their price higher than they should, and unless some team bites, it will come down when things settle. So as far as Wiggy goes, I might give Billy Boy some credit for playing the waiting game and getting him for less.
Actually, I take that back..I don’t want ‘09 to be cancelled. It will be fun to see the Twins try to rely again on hitting a ridiculous average with RISP, because I don’t see that lightning striking twice in a row.
This is what’s moronic about the Twins FO, and has been for years. It does no good to harvest starting pitching up and down the organization if you’re NOT willing to trade if for the pieces you need. In other words, that pitching talent is like currency, and if you never break it out and use it, the stuff’s essentially worthless. Now, most of these pitching prospects will just wither away in the system until they reach a point of relatively worthless value.
You know, if you’re not going to harvest infield help up and down the organization–if you insist on doing so only with pitching–than that pitching, at some point, has to RETURN the infield help you’ll inevitably need.
Billy Boy (and Terry Ryan) desperately need someone to explain to them the fundamentals of Marginal Utility.
Fred
Wood is a gamer. I’d love to see him here.
So as far as Wiggy goes, I might give Billy Boy some credit for playing the waiting game and getting him for less.
Thankfully for the Twins Wiggy may have hurt himself by waiting until now…as Cleveland appears to have taken themselves out of the market for IF help.
And from what I recall, it was either Tribe or Twins.
Now that doesn’t mean some other team could pull an LAA or NYY and throw some absurd offer at his feet outta nowhere…
It does no good to harvest starting pitching up and down the organization if you’re NOT willing to trade if for the pieces you need.
Garza/Young.
But besides that, there’s smart times to trade SP and bad times.
Bad times would be giving up a ton of SP for a one-year rental. I would hope the Twins would only be willing to part with a few young SPs for a guy like Beltre on the condition that they’re able to sign an extension with him.
Similiar to the Santana trade conditions last year.
Also, MLBTradeRumors reports that the Mets failed to impress Derek Lowe.
You know what that means….he’ll be in pinstripes by Saturday.
If someone asked for bonser in a trade they would be like NOPE! NOPE! anyways, at least christmas and new years is over. two more months of cold and spring training is around the corner.
If someone asked for bonser in a trade they would be like NOPE! NOPE!
Twins were shopping Bonser during the 2008 season. Understandably, nobody was biting.
Garza/Young
again, based on the 2008 performances Garza would have been the #4 starter for the Twins…
DeRosa would have been perfect as a second baseman, with Casilla moving to his natural position shortstop, while keeping Buscher/Harris at third. You would have not lost a defensive step at SS with Casilla versus Punto, plus DeRosa’s bat would have looked much better in the line-up than Punto. Down by 1 run in the 9th inning, would you want a Punto up or someone that hit 21 HR’s last year and had a higher BA? Anyone that would rather have Punto hitting in that situation, well, you are dumb.
Anyone that would rather have Punto hitting in that situation, well, you are dumb
hmmm… Gardy would
(I am not arguing your point here, just mentioning a fact… So I guess the conclusion is that Gardy is dumb. I buy that)
Sign Burrell.
Sign Wigginton.
Trade two outfielders, preferably Cuddyer and Kubel, for bullpen help and a middle infield prospect or two that are a year or two away. Kubel and one of Humber/Mulvey to the Cubs for Marmol as a start? Span-Gomez-Young left to right, Burrell DH, Pridie 5th outfielder.
Lineup is better, bullpen is better, defense is better and outfield/DH is unclogged for 2009. Minor league adds a sorely needed middle infield prospect.
It’s not rocket science, Bill Smith.
USAF Chief,
Good plan, then injury strikes, I csan guess who wil one of the 1st complainers that BS traded away depth.
Regards,
If you’re implying that would be me complaining, Dragon, you’re wrong.
Yet again.
Regards,
USAF Chief,
I could agree with your wish list, BUT it takes two to tango. If someone doesn’t like what you have on offer, what do you do?
Regards,
USAF-Chief,,,, you don,t sound to me much of an Air Force man, to me with all your statemants, about baseball, some really don,t make much baseball sence, I,ve been the Air Force 21, years, and you don,t sound like one of us, when it comes to the think tank,,,
“USAF Chief,
If someone doesn’t like what you have on offer, what do you do?”
EJECT!!!!!!
Look for another partner with which to tango.
Increase your offer.
Or accept the status quo.
In this case, the first two steps can be done simply by doing them. Wigginton and Burrell are free agents, and require nothing but money–which the Twins have–and the will (or courage, whatever you call it) to do it, which I admit Bill Smith and/or the Pohlad family might be lacking.
Trading Kubel shouldn’t be tough. I like Kubel, and it’ll be tough to see him go, but you have to offer some value if you want value in return, and Burrell offers as much, plus is righthanded.
Trading Cuddyer will be tough, but if you accept that whatever you get in return is a bonus in addition to freeing up salary and playing time, it’s doable.
They had the will to trade Garza for Young, it’s time they had the courage of their convictions, give Young a full time OF job for a couple years, and find out if their assessment of him a year ago was correct or not. They wouldn’t have made that trade unless they were convinced he’ll be a good hitter. Cuddyer hanging around will most likely end up taking ABs away from Young, IMO.
Popbelly…I did 26 years, retired as a Chief.
Are you sure you’re in the Air Force? Your language skills look to me more like Army material.
In any case, thanks for your service.
And by all means, offer up better ideas. We’re all just amusing ourselves anyway, it’s not like Bill Smith reads this blog.
Guys. It takes two to trade. If the Cubs were trying to rob us silly for a one-year DeRosa contract then this is a good NO MOVE. We don’t know that for certain, but if that was the case then the NO MOVE was a GOOD MOVE! The Cubs really must think we are stupid to give up two Top 10 prospects. Cleveland didn’t give up much for him but that doesn’t mean Chicago wasn’t trying to put the screws to us. It takes two to trade and we weren’t willing to be cheated.
I still think we ought to sign Wiggs and Burrell. All it is is cash.
Sounds like the Giants are going after Crede. What teams are left looking for a 3rd baseman? Maybe Wiggy can fall in our laps. What will the FO do? I don’t have much faith right now.
tomackerman,
The Cubs aren’t in business to “put the screws to us”.
They are in business to help themselves, in this case, by getting the most they can for DeRosa.
If you think they would turn down a good offer from the Twins in order to accept an inferior offer from Cleveland, then you are nuts.
The Twins simply didn’t make a better offer than did Cleveland.
The Twins weren’t interested in DeRosa, which is fine.
They lied to LaVelle when they said that they couldn’t find a match, and that was NOT fine.
I read that Rich Hill is out of options. What would it take to get him?
I also don’t mind missing out on DeRosa. I’m still thinking Beltre, Rolen, or Glaus are most worth pursuing.
AM,
I also don’t mind missing out on DeRosa………….until July 31, when I find out that the Twins missed out on EVERYBODY because they never made any attempt to get ANYBODY.
And I would be OK going after B Wood–his value seems to have dropped.
Brandon Wood….. would be good.
Thats the best I can do at rhyming.
Just a question, but if Ty Wig is so great why did Cleveland trade three prospects to get an older one-year rental? All they had to do was pony up the money.
I’m still betting/hoping we get Hardy to be our SS. Punto goes back to being superutilityman where he excels.
PS - why the urge to trade Kubel? His stats mirror Hunter’s from a year ago and wouldn’t we all love to have Torii back in the fold???
All teams have to do is “Pony” up the money for Wiggington. Why should the Twins give up one of their 3 best pitchers +++ other quality players for Hardy, who the Brewer don’t want to trade in the first place?
As for Kubel all he is, is an average DH hitter with bad knees, not a gold glove outfielder.
P.S. The only reason the Twins don’t want to trade Kubel is because they don’t want to spend the money on a Burrell or Dunn.
Wood got 150 late season at bats for the Angels last year with five dingers and 13 rbi’s. Batting average was only .200, however he did show some versatility with 32 games at third and 28 games at short. In 395 at bats at Salt Lake, hit hit .296 with 31 homers and 84 rbi’s. I say go get him. He’ll turn 24 at April. He could be the power hitting third baseman we’ve wanted for many years to come.
I agree with other bloggers Brandon Wood would be a good addition. I think the Twins FO are stuck on Valencia and thus would not feel the need to deal for another “prospect”
again, based on the 2008 performances Garza would have been the #4 starter for the Twins…
Well it’s a good thing that the Rays didn’t have access to a crystal ball…
From the Indians Website:
“What’s important about Mark DeRosa is he’s a perfect fit for our team,” general manager Mark Shapiro said. “He’s a right-handed, versatile, high-character guy with postseason experience. He fits well in our lineup and in the culture of our team. He’s going to help us win from every side you look at it.”
The Indians did not have to give up a single proven Major Leaguer to acquire DeRosa, who is coming off his career-best season.”
The Twins FO must be SO much smarter than the Indians’ FO.
Lavelle, this makes me really mad. i didn’t want any of the others we could have gotten. i did want derosa. this really dosen’t make any sence. i really don’t get it. of course he had to go to the indians. that’ll be fun for us. the saving grace is that we’re going into the season with FOUR outfielders! someone will be desperate for an outfielder midseason. hopfully then, we’ll get a bat at 3rd. i live and die by the twins. GO TWINS.
sid,
He’s a right-handed, versatile, high-character guy with postseason experience
the Twins had one of those last year, Livan Hernandez (and a World Series MVP, mind you)
thrlos98,
Livan was a pitcher, DeRosa is an every day player, not a valid comparison.
How does one order the “Seth” book on the Twin’s 2009 prospects??
Also, be patient Twin fans, Spring Training and its suprises are right around the corner..
Go Twin’s…..and sign Crede (big IF) to a 1 year incentive driven contract @ a discount initially!! Go Twin’s!!
I just don’t think that the Twins are going to do anything. They look at the 91 RBI from third last year and are comfortable going with Harris/Buscher at 3B. They are going to take their depth into the season and hope that Young and Cuddy can solve the right handed pop issue without having to bring in someone. It would seem to that they are banking on someone like Crain, Humber, or bonser to step-up and be a legit late inning lead protector because they haven’t brought in any good arms through free agency. I don’t know if they are just being cheap or if they really have that much faith in the guys they already have?
RLC61…theres a link on this blog for seths website…scroll back a bit …very easy to find….i just ordered and received the book and its awesome…seth has really done his homework and this will be great for all twins fans who like to follow the young guys in the orgranization…
sign wigginton now please before he too gets away….then work on the bullpen and lets go to spring training
From the Twins site:
Season in Preview
A lot can change by Opening Day, but as 2008 becomes 2009, this is who is projected to take the field for the Twins:
LF Denard Span
2B Alexi Casilla
C Joe Mauer
1B Justin Morneau
RF Michael Cuddyer
DH Jason Kubel
3B Brian Buscher (L)/Brendan Harris (R)
SS Nick Punto
CF Carlos Gomez
SP Scott Baker
SP Francisco Liriano
SP Kevin Slowey
SP Nick Blackburn
SP Glen Perkins
CL Joe Nathan
Words cannot express my…disapointment/anger at the abscense of Young in the starting line-up…might as well trade him then…
I’ll keep saying this:
Though, as some have pointed out, it takes two to trade, it’s wrong. Throw an offer at the Brewers that they simply can’t refuse. Overwhelm them. Give up a lot, without giving up a lot. Brewers need pitching. Give them:
Perkins (Blackburn if they must) along with Boof, Mulvey AND/OR Humber, Cuddyer, and another low prospect.
Think the Brewers would seriously just blow the Twins off with an offer like that?
Twins get Hardy, and, in the process, solve their OF problem, and Humber or Mulvey (can’t remember which) is out of options anyway so no Real loss there. They also free up room in the rotation for Swarzak or other. We get the bat, they get the arms. Everyone wins. I’d like to see the Brewers seriously blow off the Twins at that offer.
(I’d also push for another prospect from the Brewers for all that, probably a low one).
Lastly, I would like the see B-Wood in a Twins uni.
Also could throw in Harris or Buscher to free up room, as they would become expendible.
So you finally sorted through all of the nonsense and realized that 2008 was an abberation and Derosa is not as good as what we have. Thank you.
The reason the Twins did not make the deal is because he is not only not an upgrade, he would be a liability.
And they pay you to cover the Twins?
TK(2)
Right on brother about Hardy..what I’ve been saying for weeks..but you must go further..add USAFChiefs comments to yours and you come up with Mine!
JJ
Burrell
Wiggy
=
09 Playoffs and beyond.
It’s right there in front of them. Very simple if the desire to win is there.
The Giants are talking Crede, they have been looking over his medical records and are considering taking a chance on him, why haven’t the Twins?
One thing to remember is that DeRosa would also be making the league switch….so there is no guarantee his numbers would translate so nicely to the AL. Certainly the Twins could have topped/matched the Tribe’s offer to the Cubbies…..but I think the addendum to Lavelle’s post is correct on where DeRosa’s final numbers might fall. Buscher/Harris can come close to that, if not beat it.
Think the Brewers would seriously just blow the Twins off with an offer like that?
Why wouldn’t they accept such an overblown offer?
Livan was a pitcher, DeRosa is an every day player, not a valid comparison.
Take away the “postseason experience” and that pretty much describes Nick Punto.
Hell, it pretty much describes ANY utility infielder.
why haven’t the Twins?
Giants don’t play on turf.
My guess is Hardy could be had,
Mauer, Morneau, Liriano and Baker/Slowey.
Since DOING SOMETHING is far more important than doing something that makes sense, Bill Smith GO FOR IT!!!
Regards,
“hmmm… Gardy would
(I am not arguing your point here, just mentioning a fact… So I guess the conclusion is that Gardy is dumb. I buy that)”
Come on thrylos. Do you honestly think that Gardenhire would rather have the worse hitting Nick Punto up in that situation? I’m sure Gardenhire would love to send up someone with some power or a higher on base percentage in that situation. Problem is, DeRosa can’t play shortstop for the first 8 1/2 innings of the game as well as Punto can.
Anyone who reads these boards with any regularity knows you hate Gardenhire. No need to make over the top statements like this.
Someone I think it was Sid said above Gene Mauch was a great manager. I agree and miss the days of him with the old Angels. It brings me back to my childhood. Him, Candeleria, Wally Joyner I can’t think of anymore right off the top of my head.
Do you think there’s at least a remote possibility that the FO has a strategy in place regarding upgrades? Who besides the Giants and Twins are still in the hunt for a 3B? My guess is all are looking at Wigginton, Crede, and Beltre. Like the Twins, others have probably concluded that Beltre is the only player that represents a huge upgrade. The others are commodity-like, with flaws or injuries. Maybe the Twins are pretty smart, not just really cheap. Just a thought.
thrylos,
You could injure yourself stretching your ridiculous analogy between Livan and DeRosa.
Finding similarities between the two players and situations would be an exciting project for you.
But, it would only confirm that stats can prove that one plus one equals three if that is the original conclusion of the stat geek.
I’m sure Gardenhire would love to send up someone with some power or a higher on base percentage in that situation.
Excatly. If the FO gave Gardy somebody like DeRosa for 2B, Casilla would wind up at SS. Just like if the Twins landed Orlando Cabrera, Casilla wouldn’t find himself on the bench in favor of Punto at 2B.
People sometimes tend to mistake hyperbole for fact…
As far as Crede would go, a year or two ago it would’ve been a great pick up. But he’s a bad history of being hurt, would be moving to turf, and would likely only be a one-year deal.
I have no idea how anybody complaining about the Twins never changing their philosphy could support signing Joe Crede…as that would pretty much be the definition of the Twins current philosophy.
Blake would be less so (because he’s been healthy), but Wigginton is still the best 3B FA option for the Twins.
JJ Hardy is a pipe dream. As it’s going to take nothing short of a mass quantity of good players (not the typical “Strib Deluxe Package” of 5 guys you don’t like)
Think of it this way. If the Brewers came knocking for Justin Morneau, what would you expect (no, “demand”) as the minimum starting point to even begin negotiations.
“Maybe the Twins are pretty smart, not just really cheap. Just a thought.”
Nope, I am sorry but they are just really cheap. CE. Payroll in reference to the rest of the league
Pete D,
Gardy has never pinch hit for Punto in the 9th inning ever. Have you ever watched a Twins game?
[…] Could the Twins have beat that offer, if they wanted to? Certainly, and easily. But unlike many Twins fans, this doesn’t bother me at all, for several reasons. One, Mark DeRosa hit 20 homers last year in […]
Payroll in reference to the rest of the league
That’s what happens when two of your higher paid players leave to Free Agency, and your Ace is traded to another team.
Though some will look at it as an “excuse” the article discussing next year’s arbitration situation is significant.
The Twins can improve at one or two positions and make some smart trades this offseason, but they’re also going to have to make sure they can get guys like Baker, Blackburn, Span, Casilla, Young, Gomez, and even Mauer signed to some real contracts over the next few years.
The Rays are going to have the same problem in the next few years as well. You’ve got a talented young core, but a World Series trip only increases value…and when they all start coming due there’s going to be LOTS of teams chomping at the bit to steal them away.
“Just like if the Twins landed Orlando Cabrera, Casilla wouldn’t find himself on the bench in favor of Punto at 2B.”
Are you sure, T?
I’m a Gardy supporter, but it does sometimes appear he does backflips to find a way to keep Punto in the lineup.
sid says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 9:04 am
“thrylos,
You could injure yourself stretching your ridiculous analogy between Livan and DeRosa.
Finding similarities between the two players and situations would be an exciting project for you.
But, it would only confirm that stats can prove that one plus one equals three if that is the original conclusion of the stat geek.”
sid doesnt seem to understand math
AJ,
The fact that Gardy never pinch-hits for Nicky in the 9th is not because he thinks the pinch-hitter isn’t a better batting choice at that time.
Its because he thinks (incorrectly) that he can’t replace Nicky defensively, if the game continues into extra innings.
Plus, he loves him.
“sid doesnt seem to understand math”
I am willing to be taught.
I’m a Gardy supporter, but it does sometimes appear he does backflips to find a way to keep Punto in the lineup.
2007 was a mess in lineup construction. Casilla and Buscher weren’t called up until around the trade deadline, which left Jeff “Hangin’ with RonDL” Cirillo and Luis “Remember Me?” Rodriquez as his only options for 3B until August.
And then things got WEIRD. They called up Buscher, who apparently got a bruise so bad it started to rot…his replacement (Watkins) strained a back muscle on a poorly executed charge of homeplate.
Then just as Buscher came back, Bartlett started having backissues, and Casilla (apparently waiting until 2008 to remove his mask and reveal an actual MLB caliber player underneath) decided he wanted to be a headcase for a while.
It was like Punto had a damned Voodoo doll in his back pocket.
After Harris proved ineffective defensively at SS, and Casilla took over 2B with a grip that would rival GIJoe…Punto found his way into the starting job. (Remember, he was NOT in the starting lineup until Harris started miffing plays at 2B and Everett went down with shoulder problems)
Once the Buscher/Harris platoon got going, Punto then took over as starting SS. And though his numbers weren’t anything to make JJ Hardy blush, he did put up comparable numbers to that “MVP” down in Tampa that everybody here seems to miss.
Depending on what happens through the rest of Spring Training, Harris and Buscher will compete for the starting spot. Either would be a quality bench option comparred to previous years (Lew “I was good my first year” Ford, Jason “I hit a homer!” Tyner, and Luis…wait I did that one already)
Is LNP a modern day version of Mickey Hatcher
AJ Pesh -
“Gardy has never pinch hit for Punto in the 9th inning ever. Have you ever watched a Twins game?”
Nope. Never. Why would I do that?
Gardy really likes to play the righty/lefty match up game. Which gives switch hitting players like Punto an advantage, while guys like Kubel, Buscher, Gomez, and Harris are more likely to get pinch hit for.
And, to be honest, I’d rather have Punto hit before guys like Casilla, Buscher, or Gomez. Only so many bats on the bench…
theres another side to this twins issue of adding a player or two…forget us fans for a moment and lets think about the veteran players who have been around now and are the teams leader…morneau, mauer, nathan, and yes even punto….these guys also know that its going to take more to win than we put on the field last year and i know at least morneau has spoken a little about it..dont they deserve the front offices best effort to find some added lumber to this offense..these guys are coming into their prime now, so its time to get it done….i know morneau would be thrilled to see a big bat behind him in the lineup and who knows what #s he could put up with a stud bat protecting him…adding one big bat to this lineup would just bring a whole new attitude to the current players…they would be that much more geared up for a big season, so bill smith please just do it for the players themselves and then us fans will be happy also….
For what it’s worth, Buster Olney seems to think DeRosa is good catch:
The Cubs saved some money by trading Jason Marquis to the Rockies, and then scraped together more by swapping DeRosa to the Indians for three young pitchers — each of whom has a chance to pitch in the big leagues, rival talent evaluators say, but the same evaluators say none of the pitchers acquired from the Indians is a Grade A prospect.
And one of those evaluators made the argument that DeRosa may have been the Cubs’ best player last season.
He finished third among the everyday players in on-base percentage, at .376, and was fourth in slugging percentage, at .481. He finished the season with a club-high 103 runs scored, partly because he’s such a good baserunner. What he may have done best, however, was provide the Cubs average-to-above average defense at four different positions — second base, third base, left field and right field (he also played a game at first base and another at shortstop). If Aramis Ramirez came up sore, DeRosa could step in, and when Alfonso Soriano got hurt, DeRosa provided the roster flexibility for Lou Piniella to better cope with the problem, by shifting DeRosa to the outfield and playing somebody else in the infield. The Cubs are going to miss DeRosa in a big way next season.
Sid, why don’t you wait to hear what actually happened or did not happen instead of insulting everyone’s intelligence about what you think the Twins did or did not do. Don’t come on this board and say the Cubs lied to La Velle. NOBODY KNOWS! You certainly don’t.
The Cubs can do whatever they want because they have a player other teams want. They hold the proverbial cards in their hand. If they asked for certain players for DeRosa and the Twins said no then the Twins must have their reasons.
This isn’t a Hall of Fame 3rd baseman we are talking about. It’s done. Move on.
Without me getting under peoples skin for asking but if the Twins have needs they need to address and they ( the Twins ) are telling everyone that they are going to spend money and address those needs needing to be addressed. Well are they just blowing smoke or are they actually going to take action and fullfill the promise to the fan base and actually do something.
Whelp…jimmy bee. Apparently those needs have been addressed. You see, all of the sudden, Brian Buescher and Brendan Harris have apparently evolved into a force at third.
And that big right-handed bat the Twins need? Oh yeah, that has beens solved. Cuddyer is coming back from injury and will solve that problem Billy Boy says.
The bullpen? No worries. Boof will be cultivated into a set-up man and Matt Guerrier just can’t be any worse than he was last year right?? That should do it.
From mlbtraderumors (courtesy of the “Thanks a lot Mariners” Dept.)
Derek Lowe is not keen on taking less money and the same salary as Carlos Silva. He and Scott Boras will take some time to see if someone can beat the Mets’ three-year, $36MM offer. Ken Rosenthal wrote in November that most executives consider the Silva contract an aberration.
It’s officially become “Silva Money”.
Well are they just blowing smoke or are they actually going to take action and fullfill the promise to the fan base and actually do something.
As cliched as it sounds, there’s making a smart move…and making a move just to make a move.
The Twins will likely end up having to overpay to fix their 3rd base need (unless Wigginton realizes that “Blake Money” is better than nothing)
But I think some people here are more advocating the Twins make a move simply to make one (Joe Crede as an example, as he’s the same kind of injury prone vet that the Twins get soundly ripped for going after)
And you aren’t going to convince me that anything short of a way oversized package is going to land Hardy. If the Twins were to pursue an updgrade in the MIF, I’d rather they rope in Cabrera.
Either Wigginton OR Cabrera (and the highly unlikely BOTH scenario) would be a significant upgrade.
And since the theme for trades lately has been bundling prospects for one guy, it may be smart to avoid a situation in which you have to trade away a bunch of minor leaguers to bring in that 3B and 8th inning guy.
I’d have to look at Cabrera’s previous contracts…but I’m guessing he’d want something like 3-4 years, maybe around 7-8 mil?
Then you have ALL of your trade pieces available to go get that reliever.
tomackerman,
“Don’t come on this board and say the Cubs lied to La Velle. NOBODY KNOWS!”
LaVelle knows!
My contention is that the reason LaVelle wrote this blog item, is because the Twins told him there was no trade “match” with the Cubs.
The subsequent trade proved that there was a Cubs-Indians “match”, which could easily have been duplicated earlier by the Twins.
If I thought that LaVelle could afford to risk his relationship with the Twins FO by exposing the falsehood of the “no match” story, I would wait for LaVelle’s explanation.
But he can’t risk it and there won’t be a forthcoming explanation.
But you are correct about one thing.
I DON’T KNOW, and I am only speculating based on what I have read.
Long story short: The idea situation for the Twins is to address their needs at 3B and BP by signing one and trading for the other.
sid-The Twins FO is at least smarter than you.After all,they are professional baseball people who will be fired if they don’t do their job.There’s an old saying”opinions are like arshes,everyone one has one”!
T -
“If the Twins were to pursue an updgrade in the MIF, I’d rather they rope in Cabrera.”
Orlando Cabrera isn’t an upgrade in the middle infield. I’d probably take Nick Punto and Alexi Casilla over Cabrera if the salaries were equal money/years. If Cabrera gets more than Punto, I want no part of him.
I’m guessing the Twins right now are looking for teams more willing to trade for their current MLB players vs. prospects.
Since they have several players with options running out, and that OF logjam still to deal with.
As far as Crede goes, I don’t see the harm in a 1-year, incentive type deal. I think I read that Boras would advocate for that to help re-build value. If Crede ends up with some injury problems at some point in the season, then you can fall back on the magnificent Buescher/Harris piece to fill in.
I read that the Giants are pursuing Crede and are encouraged by his recent medical reports.
In any event, my ideal moves would be signing Wiggy and Lyon and calling it a day until further notice.
If the Giants do make a move on Crede, then I’m not sure what options Wiggy will be left with and could come down in price and/or years.
And I think Lyon would be an ideal set-up option.
jku: The problem with “taking a chance” on Crede is if the Twins window is closing…and Crede gets hurt (which is probably more likely than anybody’s letting on) you’ve basically just “wasted a year”.
Also: I took a look at Cabrera’s stats vs. Punto.
They’re nearly identical. Cabrera has 8 HRs comparred to Punto’s 2 and roughly twice as many RBI.
Cabrera’s AVG/OBP/SLG are all lower (avg by .003, the others by .010), but he also had nearly twice as many ABs. (600+ comparred to 300+)
So it comes down to if you think Punto could maintain his 2008 performance through a full season’s worth of ABs)
The Twins lately remind me of my brother-in-law. What my brother-in-law does lately is he tells me he will do things for me with good intention. Next I get happy because because he told me he would do something for me or help me in some sort of sense and fashion. It makes me really happy because I think he will keep his word and help me out and it makes him really happy because he thinks he is helping me out with doing me a favor. But in the end the promises he makes to me either get half done or never done. I guess the Twins these days are run as though my brother-in-law was in charge
Understood on Crede…It will just be interesting who does take a flier on him, and for what, and how he will perform. He will certainly have incentive to play well for his next contract.
In any event, I think Cabrera is good, but his off the field stuff concerns me.
The Twins could’ve got Aaron Miles for less money than Punto. Just throwing that out there.
If the choice is between doing nothing, or signing Crede to a one year deal, then I’m OK with signing Crede.
If Crede can’t play, you’ve still got the Buscher/Harris platoon.
However, that’s only if the choice is Crede or nothing.
And to me, it looks like a pretty solid prediction to say the Twins fully plan on entering 2009 with the Buscher/Harris combo at third.
sid-In defense of LEN3, let me tell you a true story from years ago.I was talking to Sir Sidney Hartman in a formal situation.I asked him what he thought of trading for Gale Gillingham of the Packers.2 days later,to my surprise,he wrote about it in his column and called me(not by name of course),a reliable source .I’ll rest my case,your honor!
T -
Or, if you think that Orlando Cabrera is on the downside of his career. He just turned 34, and is unlikely to improve over his numbers of the past few seasons. So, like I said - same cost/years? I probably take Punto, just because he is younger and has more versatility than Cabrera. If you are talking 7 million a year for Cabrera? I want NO part of that.
“The Twins could’ve got Aaron Miles for less money than Punto. Just throwing that out there.”
You know why? Because Aaron Miles is worse than Nick Punto.
BS is the equivelant of everyones flakey brother-in-law. Now in the event that someone typing on this blog does not have a flakey brother-in-law just go down to your local Legion and look for that guy/girl that is short money all the time on there drinks that will pay you or the bartender back the next time he sees you or him. Now in the event that you don’t have a flakey brother-in-law or local Legion available near you see Wimpy from the Popeye cartoon series
again, the only guy we should trade ANY players for right now is JJ.
Can pick up Burrell and Wiggy for no players just cash that FO is up to their necks in right now.
GENO,
“sid-The Twins FO is at least smarter than you.”
But, apparently they aren’t smarter than the Indians FO.
And my point was not that the Twins should have gone after DeRosa.
My point is that:
1)the Twins (apparently) told LaVelle that they inquired about DeRosa but there was no match.
2)Then the Indians made the match that the Twins said didn’t exist.
3)Therefore the Twins were (apparently)not being up-front (PC-adjusted) with LaVelle.
If those conclusions prove that I am a dumb-ass, then I am, indeed, a dumb-ass.
Pete D. - Thanks for that info. I guess I did neglect to consider that stat (age) as well.
Perhaps I pulled a Striber and got high on the guy because I recognized his name.
FYI, we’re cracking down on poor language on this blog. I can’t read every post, but I did come across one person who repeatedly likes to mask swear words with asterisks. That person is being dealt with.
As for Sid, don’t doubt the work ethic. The Twins were interested in DeRosa.
1)the Twins (apparently) told LaVelle that they inquired about DeRosa but there was no match.
So let’s assume there was no match between the Twins and the Cubs.
2)Then the Indians made the match that the Twins said didn’t exist.
There didn’t exist a match between the Twins and the Cubs. The Indians are not the Twins.
3)Therefore the Twins were (apparently)not being up-front (PC-adjusted) with LaVelle.
Or the Cubs didn’t want what the Twins were able to offer. Thus there wasn’t a match.
Let’s say the Brewers are willing to trade JJ Hardy. In return they want “a MLB ready starting OFer”.
The Twins offer Michael Cuddyer, since they need to solve their OF logjam and don’t want to deal Young. The Brewers turn down that offer. Thus there is no match.
Now the White Sox come in and offer Jermaine Dye. The Brewers accept, the deal is completed.
Would you say the Twins lied that there was no match available?
Imposter on the blog??
but I did come across one person who repeatedly likes to mask swear words with asterisks. That person is being dealt with.
How about the schizo who likes to mask his profanities with a clever replacement of “ph” for “f”?
La Velle Happpy New Year to you. I have a new idea that the Star Trib has a contest and sends one or a few lucky bloggers to ST this year. What do you think. Funny huh.
Imposter on the blog??
No, the JoeC/Howard/La Velle users are legit. There’s a special log-in system they use to ensure nobody can steal that name away.
or at least I believe that’s how it works…as that popular “Strib Bug” that likes to mix and match account info has more than once dropped me off saying “logged in as ‘La Velle’”
Thankfully a second error prevents actually doing anything (I immediately tried to log out)
LEN3,
I suspect with the passing of several days, your frustration may have diminished a bit as have mine. Actually when I look harder at DeRosa, I see Brendan Harris 5 years from now. If you look at their career numbers and splits and 162 game projections and their isn’t a great difference. DeRosa is 10 times more expensive, playing out of position at third he isn’t probably any better defensively, and he would cost several pretty good prospects. In the Metrodome I am not sure I see him hiting even 15 home runs and I see his OPS falling. Is he enuff of an upgrade to justify a deal? I am unconvinced. And I am going to hold my ire for the day Beltre goes to the competition for a simular package. I don’t have an inflated veiw of our talent, but we only have so many roster spots to give away, and an upgrade to Beltre or J J Hardy is one thing. One year of a 33 year old utility player coming off a career year isn’t going to get me worked up.
Wow T,
Could you have any more what ifs?
I can’t take that as a good debate item.
T I like the ever so popular ! for I in a popular S word
Could you have any more what ifs?
I’m trying my best to build a similiar hypothetical scenario using players people are familiar with.
Since we will likely not know what the Twins originally were offering for DeRosa.
sid -
“But, apparently they aren’t smarter than the Indians FO.”
Just because the Indians got DeRosa doesn’t mean they are smarter than the Twins. The Twins very well may have liked DeRosa, but decided the price wasn’t worth it. The Cubs may very well like the Indians prospects more than whatever the Twins may have offered, even if they were comparable packages.
I can simplify if you want:
Twins want DeRosa: Cubs request Span.
Twins say there is no match.
Indians want DeRosa: Cubs request Choo.
Indians say there is a match.
I guess it’s based on if you think Choo = Span. But ultimately did the Twins lie about not having a match?
The Cubs may very well like the Indians prospects more than whatever the Twins may have offered, even if they were comparable packages.
That in the end is likely what it came down to. We can sit back with our books and guess who a comparable package was. But utltimately it comes down to if the recieving team values those players the same way.
After all, Wigginton is awefully valuable to the Twins since they need 3B help. But to a team like the Yankees or Rays (who have A-Rod and Longoria) he’s just another name on a list somewhere.
sid-bottom line,go down to 34 Kirby place and put in your application and then we can rip you for all the bad moves you make.I’m not sure if you are not the real Sir Sidney!
LEN3. We only play our division opponents 18 times a season, but who’s counting. The last time I checked you can usually carry only 11 or 12 pitchers on the MLB roster. So why do the Twins need to keep 500 pitchers in their system??
So the theory is that:
The Twins couldn’t surpass the three “superstars” (Jeff Stevens. Chris Archer. Jon Gaub) with a package of their own non-prospects without going beyond what they thought DeRosa was worth.
That AFTER they indicated ACTUAL interest in DeRosa.
That theory is full of ….
Never mind!
We have just been warned.
“The Twins could’ve got Aaron Miles for less money than Punto. Just throwing that out there.”
“You know why? Because Aaron Miles is worse than Nick Punto.”
Ummmm…Are there some stats you’re looking at that I don’t know about? Because everywhere I checked reveals that Miles is better than Punto offensively and could provide a steady 2b in the field.
Does anyone on this Blog feel that Travis Haffner was on the juice
GENO,
Someone earlier made the analogy that:
Just because I would kill ten out of ten surgery patients, I can’t critique a surgeon who only kills nine out of ten?
If you know of a criticism-free Twins blog, we can both go there, and become the only posters on that blog.
That AFTER they indicated ACTUAL interest in DeRosa.
So wait, is your complaint that they LIED about being interested in DeRosa, or that they didn’t up their offer?
Did you stop to think maybe the Cubs didn’t have ACTUAL interest in anything the Twins could offer?
T,
“Did you stop to think maybe the Cubs didn’t have ACTUAL interest in anything the Twins could offer?”
Did you re-read what you wrote?
When you finally fall on the live grenade to protect the Twins FO, I hope they have the decency not to step on your remains.
Does anyone know what is on the table or available in the event that the Twins ever wanted to make a real trade. Basically what does everyone think that the Twins would get rid of and what the twins are not willing to get rid of.
My 3 platyers I think that the Twins would never get rid of are in this order.
Punto
Mauer
Morneau
My complaint is that they must have lied about being interested in DeRosa, otherwise they would have topped the Indians pathetic offer.
sid if you think that the attempted trade for Derosa was bad what do you think of the Blake deal where we didn’t want to pay 1-2 mill extra for the last year. Also we wouldn’t have even had to trade away any of our players or prospects. Think platoon of Buscher and Harris
“Ummmm…Are there some stats you’re looking at that I don’t know about? Because everywhere I checked reveals that Miles is better than Punto offensively and could provide a steady 2b in the field.”
Nope. Just looking at the two and guessing that Punto is closer to the 2006/2008 than the 2007 version, and Miles is closer to the 2004-2007 than the 2008 version.
Miles is older than Punto, plays worse defense than Punto, and is well below average offensively, posting an OPS+ over 80 only 1 time in his previous 5 seasons. Punto, on the other hand, has had an OPS+ of 90 and 99 sandwiched around a 52 in the last 3 years.
Even if Punto regressed to 2005 form offensively, his defense probably makes up for the slight decline in offensive talnet between the two. Aaron Miles most likely had a career last year, and will regress back to his numbers of the previous 4 seasons. Punto seems much less predictable on the offensive side, but considering he plays better defense is the better bet to have a higher contribution to a team.
I never understood the interest in derosa in the first place. He’s never been a regular starting third baseman so you can’t be sure how it would affect him and we certainly don’t need someone throwing 20 errors a year over there. Also since when is derosa a legitimate power hitter? Last year is the first time he’s hit not just 20, but even 15 home runs. He is not a power solution. One good year is not a reason to take the defensive risk and lose pitching prospects to boot.
jimmybee,
I didn’t care if they passed on Blake or DeRosa.
Just don’t say “there is no match”, when the Indians gave up three expendable non-prospects and made a “match”.
The Twins have 150-200 minor league clones of Jeff Stevens, Chris Archer and Jon Gaub, so they could have come up with a PERFECT “match”.
If the Twins need a reason for not pursuing Blake, Wiggy, DeRosa, whomever, just tell the truth!
Simple concept.
sid you want the truth!!! You can’t handle the truth!!! LOL. I know what u mean
When you finally fall on the live grenade to protect the Twins FO, I hope they have the decency not to step on your remains.
When you’re finally able to come up with a better response than “OMG you luv t3h FO”, maybe then I’ll be more willing to attempt further discussion.
My complaint is that they must have lied about being interested in DeRosa, otherwise they would have topped the Indians pathetic offer.
Once again, your definition of “being interested” becomes “get them”.
Meaningt the Angels, Orioles, Nationals, and Red Sox were never actually interested in Tex. Otherwise they would’ve topped the Yankees offer.
Likewise, neither the Yankees or Boston were interested in Santana last year. Nor were the White Sox, Royals, Rangers, or Astros actually interested in Hunter.
Does that better clarify my point?
T,
The Twins were not constrained by money or talent limits from making a better offer for DeRosa.
Your Tex, Santana and Hunter “analogies” are comical.
All the Twins had to pony up was a package that was better than Jeff Stevens, Chris Archer and Jon Gaub, which they could have EASILY done.
Failure to do something THAT EASY is proof of non-interest.
Failure to match offers for Tex, Santana and Hunter shows a lack of RESOURCES, not a lack of INTEREST.
If you don’t see the difference, then we ARE wasting our time arguing.
If the Twins didn’t think DeRosa was worth a comparable (Jeff Stevens, Chris Archer and Jon Gaub) pathetic offer, then they were not really interested.
Here are Crede’s ABs for the last four years — 452 in 2005, followed by 544 (not bad), 167 and 335. That’s not the production — or health — I’d want out of a third baseman, especially on turf. I’m still a big fan of going after Brandon Wood.
Your Tex, Santana and Hunter “analogies” are comical.
Go back and read the comments when Santana was dealt. Pretty sure the majority here thought it was “comical” that the Twins went with the “pathetic” package offered by the Mets comparred to the obviously better packages offered by both New York and Boston.
As far as Hunter and Tex are concerned: What stops Boston from adding and extra $50k a year to Tex?
All the Twins had to pony up was a package that was better than Jeff Stevens, Chris Archer and Jon Gaub, which they could have EASILY done.
Easily done from your perspective. Since they are players on your favorite team.
However, the Cubs obviously valued the players the Twins had differently then they did (which is why any trade breaks down).
But again, since you think the only way to prove a team isn’t lying is to actually aquire the player…there really is no discussion here. You’ll simply pick and choose excuses for why one example is valid and one is not as long as they prove your point.
“All the Twins had to pony up was a package that was better than Jeff Stevens, Chris Archer and Jon Gaub, which they could have EASILY done.”
“Easily done from your perspective. Since they are players on your favorite team.”
Huh?
Are you telling me that the Twins couldn’t have topped that offer?
Please read LaVelle above, and all his references to player evaluation services verifying that the Indians offer was made up of scraps that the Twins could EASILY have topped.
T, sane,
Sorry.
The 12:54 post was mine.
System screw-up, I think.
Are you telling me that the Twins couldn’t have topped that offer?
Not at all.
What I’m trying to get across is that the Cubs and Twins didn’t see eye to eye on what players were worth what.
It could be either the Twins overvaluing what they were offering, or the Cubs undervaluing what they were being offered.
Which is the definition of a “mismatch”.
sid: It’s like this…
Reports are that to get the Rox to part with Atkins, it’d take a package starting at something like Slowey and Span.
Now, to the Rockies…Span is a young, cheap, OF with good speed for a massive OF.
But to the Twins, Span is the leadoff hitter they’ve been looking for since Stewart faded. Which is VERY valuable.
Which is why the Atkins deal is probably somewhere between limbo and not happening.
Yes T there was a mismatch for Blake as well. He (Blake) wanted a certain amount of money and the Pohlads and the FO didn’t want to underpay for his services even for a local discount.
The Derosa deal is done. Let’ discuss what the Twins might have to give up to the Brewers to get Hardy.
I am not of the opinion that we should trade an OF to get him (injuries, slumps, matchups, days off, etc).
We have loads of pitching. Perhaps one of our five starters plus a pitching prospect?
Let’s hear it….
“Which is why the Atkins deal is probably somewhere between limbo and not happening.”
I would say more towards. Uh oh! Did you see that pig flying around out there
“The Derosa deal is done. Let’ discuss what the Twins might have to give up to the Brewers to get Hardy.”
Which is why the Hardy deal is probably somewhere between limbo and not happening.
“The Derosa deal is done. Let’ discuss what the Twins might have to give up to the Brewers to get Hardy.”
We would have a better shot at getting Manny
Pohlads and the FO didn’t want to underpay for his services even for a local discount.
What people ignore is that both the Twins and Dodgers (the team who gave him a TON of credit to for their success in 08) only valued him at 2 years with a 3rd option.
Blake came back with “I want three guaranteed.” and the Twins “Yeah, uh huh…have fun with that.”
Think about it. For maybe a million or more a year, the Twins could get a guy like Wiggy. Who’s pretty much the same (if not better), and younger.
Sign Wigginton to a four year deal for just over Blake money and by the time the contracts up he’ll STILL be about as old as Blake is now.
Sid: I think you’re seriously undervaluing what the Cubs got for DeRosa, and SERIOUSLY overvaluing the pitchers avialable for trade from the Twins system. How many A ball lefthanders in the Twins system K’d 100 hitters in 62 innings last year? How many Twins pitchers who reached AAA last year have averaged over 1 K per inning for their minor league career?
You’re probably overvaluing DeRosa himself.
Now, the Blake non-deal, I’m with you. They flat out lied to us on that one. If the Twins were seriously interested in Blake, he’d be a Twin today.
The Twins, and most teams for that matter do not make trades for players that may play just one year. They might sign a FA like Batista or White to one year deals, but they don’t give up prospects in-trade for one year players. Maybe there is something else on the horizon that we don’t know about concerning a player the Twins have interest in, but have not been able to get a deal done. DeRosa will not do as well in Cleveland as he did in Chicago. Period. The price of the remaining free agents gets driven downward every day closer to spring training. Have a bit of patience. Frankly, I would much rather see them bolster their pen before they spend on a 3B.
If the Twins were seriously interested in Blake, he’d be a Twin today.
Do you think Blake would’ve been worth three years guaranteed?
chief-flat out lied is kind of strong.Since it’s a new year,i’ll repeat the thoughts i expressed in the Johan trade matter.No GM(be it Theo Epstein or BS)is going to tip his hand before a trade is finalazed.I think that pertains to all trade SPECULATION we were talking about then and now.
Halsey Hall,
“The Twins, and most teams for that matter do not make trades for players that may play just one year.”
Last year’s Craig Monroe trade refutes that.
They didn’t give up much (ptbnl), but they did make a trade, so that policy either doesn’t exist or is used selectively.
Im wondering if the only time GM Billy Bob Smith picked up the phone was to order pizza, the only deal struck was 1/2 off cheese bread.
Mark Derosa is a fine role player. He is not a middle of the order everyday third baseman, and either is Ty Wigginton for that matter. And NO, Cleveland is not the team to beat in the Central, its the Minnesota Twins. Cleveland doesn’t pitch! The Twins do!
I’ll stick with Brendan Harris over a Derosa or a Wigginton type. Remember, Harris 28, Derosa 34, Wigginton 32. What point of their careers are each one at? When Wiggy and Derosa were 28, they wern’t the most attractive option either. Unless you can substancily improve the position, Harris, with Buscher will be fine.
if anyone is still upset about the derosa thing, please think about everything first. he never hit more than 13 HR before last year (his age 33 year) and does not play a good third base. how is he an upgrade over harris/buscher? why give up anything or even just money to someone who’s not actually helping our problems? just stick with harris/buscher and see if they form an adequate duo and wait and see if the M’s trade beltre at the deadline.
3rd base platoon had 91 RBI last year which is really pretty great from the bottom of the order. Why does everyone assume they can’t do it again? Forget homeruns. Last time I checked 91 RBI is more than 85.
Dantes929,
“3rd base platoon had 91 RBI last year….Why does everyone assume they can’t do it again?”
Without Mike Lamb, they had 59 RBI.
I am guessing that Lamb will not have 32 RBI for the Twins next year.
We’re not getting Hardy next year. We are not getting Wigginton. We are not getting Beltre. We won’t sign Crede. We will not make one single deal worth a tinker’s dam as long as Sleepy Bill Smith snoozes in his chair as GM.
The bottom line is Smith made 5 horrible acquisitions last year and two bad trades. He knows how inept he is so he won’t pull the trigger unless the Yanks offer up Derek Jeter and cash for Boof Bonser and then he might pause. He is absolutely worthless and he needs to be gone. Yes Pohlad is a skinflint but Smith has the executive abilities, when it comes to trades, of a gerbil.
Interesting that when the Twinks don’t get someone that they are looking at it is always because the other team “was asking too much”, yet time and time again we see that player traded for minor leaguers…This has been going on for as long as I can remember….Says to me the Twinks really don’t want to win…Win another WS and that means paying players huge money to keep them…So why do that when you can pay crap and keep a winning record, but don’t do crap in the post season or even get there…
The beautiful thing about Wiggy is his versatility (the same with Blake and DeRosa too I guess. but Wiggy is younger)…Give him the 3 years he is looking for and when the young 3b prospects the Twins have are ready to emerge, Wiggy is still valuable somewhere else on the field or at DH.
The folks on this board who post that Harris/Buescher are “adequate” and perhaps better than a Wigginton fascinate me, they really do.
The twins are not willing to pay for a proven productive free agent. So once again they will sign a cheap unproductive free agent. With the new stadium and the significant price increase of tickets in 2110 I was hoping for them to be willing to spend some $$. It appears they will not. Same as last year we will compete but struggle to score runs and lose alot of games because we are short in the bullpen.
Pohlads = Do Nothing.
Steve
“if anyone is still upset about the derosa thing, please think about everything first.”
Fans are upset because the Twins NEVER sign an above average free agent or trade prospects to get an above average player to help the team. Name one in the last 10 years?
I personally like Derosa, he is a good patient hitter with above average defense. The fans that say Derosa isnt a good fit for us I can understand your point. But the problem is that we NEVER add one or two players to get us to the next level.
All we ask is for Smith to take a chance on a few players once and a while to improve the team. I keep saying this but our SS and 3b combo offensively has been the worst in the league for the last several years. It needs to be addressed.
If anyone wants to hear from an expert about how well Derosa would have helped a team, read this:
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/majors/trade-central/2009/267390.html
It is about money, because the Twins would have likely added a good draft pick if Derosa left after the year. Unbelievable!
This is silly. There are over 500 posts on this thread alone. Do we miss baseball?
Was a Twins Fan - While it’s possible that the Cubs were enthralled with one of the Cleveland pitchers, I agree that the Twins almost certainly could have swung that deal without hurting themselves. I also would have liked Aaron Miles. Brandon Wood would be great, but I suspect would be very difficult to pry away from the Angels.
Either Punto or Casilla are likely to have a down year in hitting. Bill James forecasts them both having down years.
Fans are upset because the Twins NEVER sign an above average free agent or trade prospects to get an above average player to help the team. Name one in the last 10 years?
DeRosa is above average? If people think that all Cleveland had to give up was garbage for DeRosa, how could he possibly be anything BUT average?
Hey T,
Did you read the Baseball America article? It says that Derosa has been one of the best offensive 2nd baseman for the last 3 years. Do you not agree that is above average?
Thats why people are mad about the Indians trade, because the Twins lied. saying they were interested in him and they were not.
The argument shouldn’t be whether Derosa is above average or average, it should be whether the Twins lie to fans to keep them thinking they are going after players when they are actually doing nothing. It is good that La Velle points that out, because if he didnt the Twins would continue to give garbage to the columnists.
