Joe Mauer has, `minor’ kidney surgery
Posted on January 2nd, 2009 – 10:30 AMBy La Velle
Twins catcher Joe Mauer recently had surgery at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester to. “eliminate a kidney obstruction,” Twins general manager Bill Smith said.
Smith stressed that Mauer’s situation, “ is not serious,” and is expected to be ready to go when Twins pitchers and catchers report for duty on Feb. 14. Mauer had the surgery on Dec. 22.
“It’s something he’s had since he was a kid,” Smith said. “It is something that has bothered him more lately. Everything went fine and he will be ready for the season.”
I’m grateful the Twins revealed the surgery. I heard about something going on with Mauer’s kidneys a couple days ago but was unable to chase people down to confirm anything over the holiday. I was prepared to pepper my sources with calls today when I got a message to call the Twins’ office.
Mauer’s health is a hot-button topic in this town. He missed most of the 2004 season with a knee injury. He had a stress reaction in the same leg during spring of 2007 and had to be shut down for a week or so. But that season he battled a few ailments, Torii Hunter questioned his ability to deal with pain and people clamored to have him moved to third base.
Some of the injury talk went overboard, and I believe he should remain behind the plate because that might be the most vital position on the field and it’s not often you can put a batting champion there. Mauer, still only 25, batted .328 with 9 homers and 85 RBI last season - and I still think he can hit 15-20 homers in a season one of these years.
Anyway, Twins fans should be relieved that the kidney surgery wasn’t serious. I’m not sure how this affects his status for the World Baseball Classic, but I’m sure we’ll find out soon.
491 Responses to "Joe Mauer has, `minor’ kidney surgery"
Holy crap!! Bad omen on the new season?
Mauer could hit homeruns every year! Unfortunately, he buys into all this “Twins Baseball”, don’t hit the ball hard, listen to Gardy and Vavra (who were both terrible hitters) crap!
Joe needs to be healthy this season. 2007 was a disappointment for a variety of reasons, but not having Joe behind the plate for a good chunk of time really hurt.
Didn’t Mauer have kidney stones?
LaVelle is right, Joe’s greatest value is as a catcher, any move to 3B makes him an average player. Especially since his defense it so good.
That Orioles prospect, Weiters, is Joe Mauer with power.
CoolBeans,
You must not watch too much Twins baseball, because last time I checked, Mauer hit the ball pretty hard.
I’ll take .328 and 8 home runs over .275 and 20 home runs any day.
I am surprised that Joe could not just touch his back with his hand it would have been miraculously healed! After all, he can walk on water, right?
But would you take it over .300 and 20 home runs? I wouldn’t.
Why? Why are people expecting him to hit 15-20 homeruns in a season. He has never, ever been a power hitter. Just be glad that he puts up a great average and can call one hell of a game.
it makes no sense at all why we don’t lock him up untill 2015 right now instead of waiting till this time next year. all of the big budget teams will be talking about how this is his last year in MN. it’ll be just as big as the santana mess. why not just do it now?
The reason everybody expects Mauer to hit tons of homers is because he regularily bats out of the #3 spot.
If Cuddyer hadn’t gotten hurt (or if Young didn’t struggle as much as he did early in the season), you likely would’ve seen Mauer in the #2 spot given a second go.
It’ll be intersting to see if they’d consider going Casilla/Span 9/1 to give Mauer at 2 another shot.
But I guess that depends on if a more solid #3 hitter could be found.
wow i hope he heals and it dosent bother him in the season we need him to be like last year if he has another season like 07 we will be in more trouble than what we already are good luck joe
If the Twins tried to get him locked up today they would have no leverage. If they wait until next year they can play it out in the public and force him to take a lesser deal or be hated in his home state. The player they need to lock down for ten years is Lariano. once he wins the CY Young next year he is going to deserve much more than the twins are willing to offer.
“I’ll take .328 and 8 home runs over .275 and 20 home runs any day.”
Questionable, especially without knowing OBA and SLG.
Just off the info given, at 500 ABs, a .328 average equals 164 hits.
A .274 average equals 137 hits, or 27 fewer hits than a .328 hitter gets, or around 1 extra hit per week for the season.
Which is more valuable…27 singles or 12 home runs? An extra single once every 6 games, or an extra home run once every 13.5 games?
Why would we want to keep mauer? He’s going to demand huge money, his 70-85 RBI isn’t that hard to replace, and his health is going to slow him down big time if he continues to play catcher!
Whooptee doo the guy gets alot of base hits! Whether you like Mauer or not you have to admit that he’s the Tim Duncan of baseball! One of the best but painfully boring to watch! Unless you get excited over singles between the 2B and SS!
Chief: His stats with RISP is another factor to add in for consideration.
27 singles with a runner on 2nd/3rd may be worth more than 12 solo shots. 
Gardy said it best. Refering to a move to 3B.
I don’t recall the exact quote so I will paraphrase. “He’s got a chance to be the best in history at his position.”
One of the best but painfully boring to watch!
So you must love Nick Punto. Guy isn’t the best hitter, but man is he ever exciting…
The best thing the Twins can do if they really want to keep Mauer is wait for him to get hurt again (we all know that it will happen). Then his value will be nothing and we can still pay him alot of money because Gardy likes him and he plays Twins Baseball! yeeeaaahh!!!
So sick of not seeing Homeruns!!
I’ll take the Tim Duncan of Baseball, if it means multiple titles.
So sick of not having pitchers that strikeout tons of people.
ala Santana and hard throwing Liriano(2006 version)
I’ve never seen so many negative wingnuts in my life. Joe Mauer has a bad approach? He’s a two-time batting titlist at 25! At a position from which no one in the AL had ever won even one batting championship. He’s an OBP machine (#2 in the league last year, with a career OBP of .399, which btw is better than A-Rod, Ryan Howard, Justin Morneau, Josh Hamilton, and many more players who are “better” hitters). Given what a great hitter Joe is, I would say the Gardy/Vavra approach worked, especially considering as a team, the Twins scored the fourth most runs in the league last year. If all you want to see is homers, go watch a Tuesday night beer-league softball team.
Basehits aren’t going to bring a WS here!
Gardy and Vavra approach never works!
I will say that until they win something!
“Chief: His stats with RISP is another factor to add in for consideration.”
(I get the point, T, but in reality…)
Only if you could guarantee before the season that those 27 singles would all come with runners on 2nd/3rd.
Otherwise, it’s just random luck. Might as well say all 12 of those extra home runs will come in the 9th inning of a tie game.
No one said Mauer has a bad approach! He has a great approach for a lead-off hitter! I wouldn’t be so critical if they would bat him 2nd or 6th or anywhere but 3rd! Honestly Kubel would do way better in that spot! He’d see better pitches because morneau would be behind him and then Morneau would also be protected because Mauer would be coming up behind him. Mauer doesn’t need protection behind him because he has such a good eye!!
The power problem has nothing to do with Mauer. If he played somewhere else where he wasn’t over-hyped (which he was here, being a hometown hero) and hit .280 with 10 HR and played the position the way he does, people would love him, especially for what we’re paying him. The fact that our catcher has a near .400 OBP and a career average of over .300 (I think, or is it just under?), has won two batting titles and was among the league leaders in innings caught last year is a huge, huge blessing for MN baseball fans. The problem is the Twins not letting hitters like Kubel, Cuddyer, Young, (in the past Ortiz) unload on some pitches and try to hit 20-25 homers a year, even if it means a slightly lower BA.
WOW… this is not shocking at all. Baby Jesus… oh sorry… Joe Mauer… is not the player everyone thinks he is. Yeah he is a two time batting champ… but how many rings does he have? How can people over look all of the double plays he hits into? How many rallies does he kill? I would love to see the numbers on that. Sure his 75-80 RBI’s are cute and it’s a great story but I’m sorry he needs to put up BETTER numbers… especially from the three hole. I will take Morneau any day of the week over Mauer. .300 hitter and hitting 25-30 homers a year. Let Baby Jesus go and spend the money on someone that will produce power not basehits.
I think CoolBeans is a HUGE tool and a complete D-Bag. Mauer is the Man & Base hits have won us 2 titles. I will take his .328 avg all day. Get on base and let the MVP hit the homers. Get a clue about baseball before you waste your whole day talking nonsense. Get a life loser.
David you hit it right on the head! Without my cynicism.
J. Rizzy is a big man when hiding behind his keyboard! Where you at playa?
I’ll come holla at you! Or maybe your not so tough after all!!
David,
I don’t think Kubel’s and Cuddy’s lack of HRs is from a lack of a HR swing. I do agree that Young may have listened too much to the Twins hitting gurus and changed his swing. This would explain his power numbers drop in the first 1/2 of last year. But he picked it up in the 2nd half though. I expect big improvements in this season from him. Perhaps even a move to batting 3rd freeing Joe to bat 2nd.
I’ll come right now and we’ll see who the D-bag is…unless your scared?
If the Twins had power hitters at third base and the outfield, we would be less interested in Mauer’s HR numbers. A power hitting catcher that plays good defense is a valuable commodity and rather rare. Yes, there are some out there, but not a lot. And, no, Cuddyer can’t be considered a power hitter until he can stay healthy and hit 20-25 HRS for multiple, consecutive seasons, which I believe will never happen. I hope he proves me wrong.
As long as the Twins play Gardy “Smallball” they will not win any World Series. All the teams that win have great power hitters including 1987 and 1991 Twins. Gardy wouldn’t know a power hitter if he saw one. Ortiz ring a bell? They let Ortiz go and give Punto 4 million a year? They don’t have a clue. Sub .500 season on the horizon for 2009. Oh, but that Punto knows how to advance the runner or hit into a double-play to score a run with the bases loaded. Hi-fives all around the clubhouse when that happens. I won’t support the Twins anymore until Pohlad and Gardenhire are gone.
thought so!!
little coward keep your mouth shut!!
I am gay
“Gardy and Vavra approach never works!
I will say that until they win something!”
You mean like 4 division championships in 5 years? Or if you take into account the Gardy/Vavra approach is the TK approach, 2 World Series in 5 years?
“No one said Mauer has a bad approach!”
ummmm, you did in your first post where you said the only reason Mauer doesn’t hit homers is because he “he buys into all this “Twins Baseball”, don’t hit the ball hard, listen to Gardy and Vavra (who were both terrible hitters) crap!” (your words verbatim). So if Mauer listens to Gardy/Vavra, that must be where he gets his hitting approach. And if Gardy/Vavra are crap, then by definition, so is Mauer.
Chief, the other thing you have to take into account is that Mauer will also probably draw fewer walks in trying to hit homers. When you try to hit homers, you have to swing a certain way, which makes it more likely you’ll miss or foul the pitch off, meaning a reduction in BB’s and an increase in SO’s. Therefore, not only are we losing basehits (which given his ratio of 3 singles for every 4 hits, means the 27 hits he loses would be about 21 singles, 5 doubles, and one triple/homer), we’d probably be losing 5-10 walks, while adding 5-10 strikeouts.
I would also say that its more likely that you could hit 27 singles with a guy in scoring position than 12 homers in the 9th inning of a tie game. Its also worth noting that 7 of Joe’s 9 homers were solo shots, and the other 2 were 2-run shots, so its not like he’s missing out on a propensity of Grand Slams.
I love blogging about baseball ALL DAY
pdawsdad:
you would hate Joe for taking the deal that’s best for HIM, if it meant leaving the Twins? wow. that’s pretty harsh. with your attitude, I hope you never have children.
“They let Ortiz go and give Punto 4 million a year? ”
Wow. That’s your argument?
I think what coolbeans was trying to say is that nobody batting 3rd or 4th in any lineup should adopt the Gardy/Vavra approach. I think he’s right!
I am still gay
coolbeans…
Keep your sexual orientation to yourself. This a baseball blog.
“I think what coolbeans was trying to say is that nobody batting 3rd or 4th in any lineup should adopt the Gardy/Vavra approach.”
Mauer’s “approach” was not adopted when he became the Twins #3 hitter.
He became a #1 draft pick and a two-time batting champion with an approach he developed earlier and he shouln’t change his approach just because the manager is forced (by team personnel deficiencies) to bat him third.
Entries only been up for about an hour and a half and we’ve already digressed into name calling and imposter posts.
I can understand why Howard and JoeC haven’t posted anything in a while…
Mauer is best served hitting somewhere before Morneau in the lineup. When you have a guy that can get on base consistently without much power, you want to make sure he’s up for the guy who CAN hit for power.
Be it 2nd or 3rd (or leadoff…though Span will do fine in that spot if he can keep up his 07 performance)
coolbeans
Guys like you who have never done anything are always the first to remark on others success. I would be jealous too if i had your life!
coolbeans
I own you!!!!
ByebyebabyJesus: Do you know how many RBI Delmon Young had two years ago? 93. RBI is one of the most misleading statistics you can use to evaluate hitters, and you can make much more informed judgments with other stats. Look at OPS+ (league-adjusted Onbase + slugging %)for a better gauge of how good a hitter someone is: Mauer’s is 128 for his career and was 137 last year. A score of 100 means a player is precisely average. As for double plays, he hit into 21. As an aside - grounding into double plays isn’t inherently a bad thing, b/c it happens a lot when you have good hitters. Morneau last year had the exact same OPS+ of 137 and hit into 20 DPs. For comparison, A-Rod hit into 16 DPs, Pujols hit into 16 (and 27 the year before!), Jeter hit into 24 last year and on and on and on it goes. Speaking of Jeter, only once in his entire CAREER has he had an OPS+ of over 132, and he makes, what, 3 times what Mauer makes and plays a much less demanding position. And here is where Mauer’s true value comes from - the fact that he’s a catcher. Since catchers don’t usually give you much offense, having an elite (yes, elite) offensive player at catcher lets you get away with below-average or average production elsewhere; or, if you actually step up and fill in holes adequately elsewhere (which the Twins don’t), you have that much more of an advantage from the catcher spot. As for clutch hitting, you can bash Mauer’s “clutchness” all you want (I’d like to see that stat), but the fact of the matter is that Joe Mauer accounted for almost 5 wins above and beyond what the team would have won without him, as he was 7th in the majors with a 4.88 Win Probability Added (meaning he increased the Twins probability of winning by 4.88 games). This is an objectively figured statistic which contextualizes a player’s performance by evaluating game circumstances to assign value to what a player does. I.e. a home run in a 10-0 game is less valuable than a leadoff single in the ninth inning of a 2-2 game b/c the single much more greatly affects your chances of winning than does the home run). Again, Mauer was SEVENTH in the MAJORS, behind Manny, Berkman, Pujols, Tex, Jason Bay, and Beltran. (For comparison, Morneau was 14th at 3.87). This means that if you put Mauer on a .500 team, that team then goes 86-74. Or, without Mauer last year, the Twins go 83-79. Bottom line, Joe Mauer is this team’s MVP. He should have been the league MVP. This has nothing to do with his sideburns or his place of birth. He’s simply one of the elite players in baseball, and we’re lucky to have him.
I think Gary/Vavra are bright enough to understand they were never MLB caliber hitters and not muck with MLB caliber hitters unless they ask for technical help when they are struggling. Hitting can be broken down and its components analysed. Even Morneau credits Vavra for helping him. It’s the subtleties in baseball that make the game so enjoyable. There’s a place for all kinds of hitters in the game.
I am gay. I went a way there for a little bit to meet a trucker in his cab at a rest stop. I’m back now and I’m gonna trsdh mauer come more. If you don’t like that, tough. I’ll fight you right now, just name where or when. But don’t wear too tight clothing..it might want me want to do something other then fight
Mauers value as a catcher is his ability to throw out base stealers. He can call a good game, but he alters the opposing team’s base stealing plans. He can hit also, which is a bonus for a catcher. Since he is tall, young and still growing into his body, it is reasonable to expect his power numbers to grow. I think LEN3 is right in guessing that he should be able to hit 15-20 HR/year without cutting into his BA.
I wonder how much coaching Mauer actually gets. I can see there being people afraid they might “break him” if they start messing around too much.
There’s guys on the team that need more focus than Mauer. Help Delmon develop some patience and he’ll make up for the power Mauer doesn’t have.
Paul - you might be right about Cuddy and Kubel. They might just not be that good of hitters, though Kubel’s numbers are promising. As for Young, I don’t know what his deal is. This guy looks built for power but he hits the ball on the ground something like 55% of the time he hits the ball, which doesn’t lend itself well to hitting for power. I may have overstated a bit - the Twins might not really be damaging any potential power hitters they have now. But they seem to be averse to acquiring an Adam Dunn-type hitter who’ll club 30-40 and bat .220, even though that kind of player can be extremely valuable.
Correction from my previous post - put Mauer on a .500 team, they go 86-76, not 74. My bad.
Speaking of catchers…with Redmond’s contract up after this year, will Morales get any time come September? Or has he been jumped over since his injury in 07?
T - teach Delmon to hit the ball in the air. It’s hard to hit many home runs when half your hits touch the ground before they reach the outfield.
with Redmond’s contract up after this year, will Morales get any time come September?
Come September there will be at least a third catcher up, whether it is Morales or Ramos or (god forbid) Butera will depend on how they are faring by then…
“As for Young, I don’t know what his deal is.”
Could it be that he is 22 years old with less than 3 years of MLB experience?
What would a Joe Mauer kidney stone go for on e-bay?
“Yeah he is a two time batting champ… but how many rings does he have?”
The same number as all time homerun champ Barry Bonds, first ballot HOF-er A-Rod, Johan Santana, Justin Morneau, Vladimir Guerrero for just a few examples.
As for double plays, Mauer did lead the team with 21 GDP last year, one more than Morneau. This placed him ninth in the AL, behind players such as Guerrero, Magglio Ordonez, and Derek Jeter. So yes, that is something of a concern, but given the players who are worse than him, its not like he is far and away the worst.
David,
I agree with you on the Twins aversion to adding a Dunn type. By the way, I don’t agree with some bloggers who consider his high KO rate a severe detrement. At least he’s not providing the defense a chance for DPs.
Good way to cut down in GIDP’s?
Strike out more often to minimize your ground balls.
Terrible hitters seldom GIDP.
[…] Twins Insider – […]
What I don’t get is Mauer hit 6 Hr’s in his first 107 AB’s, then he hurts his knee and no more power. Did the Knee ever really heal?
Someone should break the frigging ! key on CoolBeans’ computer. I’d love to see more homeruns, too, but Mauer is what he is, and he’s damn good. Instead of expecting him to try to hit more homeruns and possibly mess with his head and screw up his approach, the Twins should bring in someone who can actually hit homeruns. Dunn would be a great choice. I”m not holding my breath though. You root for the team you have, not the team you wish you had.
shazel,
As I recall, Mauer started the season in an “open early” mode to satisfy his critics. That led to increased HR’s and a f-cked up swing.
He corrected the swing back to his original ‘all-fields” swing and the HR’s fell off, but the gappers returned.
sane:
I guess some would argue that at least the terrible player only makes one out per swing of the bat.
Well the only way we’ll know for sure if Vavra’s hitting style is detrimental is if some hitter that’s only a little above average for us goes somewhere else and becomes a power-hitting terror that leads a team to it’s first world series in 100 years. If that happened then we’d have something to point to and say “yup hitting singles the opposite way isn’t best for all types of hitters.” Since this is unlikely to happen I guess the Twins FO can claim to be in the dark about the Vavra inefficiencies.
T,
Absolutely.
I sometimes (kiddingly) tell our poorer hitters to strike-out and “break up two”!
shazel,
Vavra wasn’t Big Papi’s batting coach with the Twins.
“hitting singles the opposite way isn’t best for all types of hitters.”
IMO everyone agrees with that.
The only variable is:
For WHICH hitters is (or isn’t) hitting singles the opposite way the better way?
Oh sane…facts have no place in these discussions! 
The strikeout is the worst out a player can make, because there is virtually zero chance it provides an advantage to the offense (the only advantage would be a dropped third strike, allowing the player/baserunners to reach/advance). The DP is marginally better, in that a ball hit into play has a much better chance to be muffed or thrown away than a third strike has of going to the backstop. Additionally, if there is a runner on third and 0 outs, a double play can plate a run even if its executed flawlessly by the defense, whereas a perfectly executed strikeout will never plate a run. Therefore, cheering for strikeouts over hit balls is folly.
So what your telling me is that Vavra is just the current figure head of this light hitting regime that is ultimately controlled by who? Who is to blame for Ortiz not flowering here? Why didn’t we keep Santana? Who is the person that I can legitimately blame for these short comings? I want accountability dammit.
“As I recall, Mauer started the season in an “open early” mode to satisfy his critics. That led to increased HR’s and a f-cked up swing.
He corrected the swing back to his original ‘all-fields” swing and the HR’s fell off, but the gappers returned.”
Really Sane?
Because Mauer slugged .386 in March/April with no HRs, and slugged .387 with no HRs in May.
He didn’t hit his first HR until June (and by the way, he slugged .568 in June, and SLG’d .467, .417, and .490 in July-Sep).
Who is to blame for Ortiz not flowering here?
Scott Ulger, who is no longer the hitting coach.
Why didn’t we keep Santana?
This is one of the reasons Terry Ryan is no longer the GM.
Pete D - it could be that he’s 22 with only 3 years of Major League experience. I doubt it. Look at some raw numbers here:
2006: .317 BA/.336 OBP/.476 SLG
2007: .288/.316/.408
2008: .290/.336/.405
That’s two full years in the major leagues with a pretty paltry Slugging percentage for a “power” hitter, even a young one. The big concern I’ve read about is how often he hits the ball on the ground. If he’s going to be a power hiter, shouldn’t he be hitting more line drives and fly balls? For his career, he’s hit the ball on the ground exactly half the time. Compare to:
Joe Mauer: 50%
Justin Morneau: 41%
It’s not conclusive by any means, but his slugging percentage hasn’t shown signs of power. His ground ball rate suggests he’s more comparable to a joe mauer type hitter than a justin morneau type hitter. he could maybe turn it around, but you have to ask what he gives you overall if he doesn’t turn on the power. You have a light-hitting, poor-fielding left fielder/DH type player. I admit the jury’s still out, but if I had to bet, I’d say he never develops into a “power” hitter. I hope I’m wrong.
Sane…
My last two post’s were in complete jest.
My ass might be dumb but I ain’t no dumb ass.
Scotty Ullger is terrible. He may be a worse 3rd base coach than a hitting coach.
by the way i mean ONLY in terms of how much power they hit for. obviously delmon strikes out a ton and isn’t actually comparable to mauer as a batter. also 2006 - delmon played in i think 30 some games.
Yea David then you look at his minor league numbers and realize he is a power hitter that’s just not comfortable at this level yet. Still he’s way too good to keep in the minors, so just have a little patients.
Chief,
Maybe Mauer’s “correction” took place in Spring Training.
I plead Alzheimer’s.
Wish List for 2009 and beyond
LF Span
C Mauer
SS Hardy a
1B Morneau
3B Beltre b
DH Kubel
RF Young
2B Casilla
CF Gomez
a) acquired via trade
b) 2010 free agent
Lol……. Is Bill Smith still on a family vacation somewhere??
The turning point for Delmon will be when he starts driving outside pitches for extra base hits and stops slapping the ball to the right side.
If he did this then he’d see more inside pitches which he has no problem hitting for home runs.
Last year 95% of the time teams pitched him outside because he was content to just try and hit a weak single to right. If he drive more of those outside pitches for doubles and homers then he’ll really give pitchers fits.
You cannot blame the Twins for Ortiz. They offered him in a trade to every other team in the Bigs, and got no takers, leading to his subsequent signing for 1 year at $1 million. If he was such a prodigious power threat that was simply being ruined by bad coaching, why did no other team see fit to even attempt to acquire him, and why he was only able to get that small of a contract out of a notoriously free-spending organization?
I agree that we need to have a little more patience with Young. I think our future is with him in left and try to get as much as we can for Cuddyer.
Dan G: I sometimes wonder just what the Red Sox saw in Ortiz to offer him that.
Jeff: What do you think it would take (realistically) to get Hardy. I’m genuinely curious.
That’s factoring in that all reports are that the Brewers have no intent to move him.
You cannot blame the Twins for Ortiz.
OK
so who exactly is to blame for the Twins cutting Ortiz in favor of LeCroy?
Terry Ryan is on record saying that he could not keep both and chose to keep LaCroy because he ‘had a higher upside’…
shazel - my point is that, given his batting average in the majors so far, isn’t it odd that he doesn’t have a higher SLG? the guy is batting right around .290. It just indicates that he doesn’t hit for power. that’s two full seasons of sample, with not much indication of power. sorry, i just don’t see it.
Actually, T, I think Terry Ryan is the person to blame for David Ortiz not “flowering” in Minnesota.
Ortiz hit:
.282/.364/.446,
.234/.324/.475, and
.272/.339/.500
in his last three seasons as a Twin. He was only 26 years old when released. He had trouble staying healthy, but had shown very good power and plate discipline in the minors and as a Twin.
Ryan made the decision he didn’t want to offer arbitration. While noboby could predict Ortiz would go on to be as good as he’s been in Boston, it’s not like he didn’t show flashes of being a very good hitter as a Twin.
Should Boston have offered Ortiz more than 1 million? Give them credit for such a shrewd pickup.
Chief: Probably another reason Terry Ryan stepped down.
He has a fantastic ability to evaluate young talent, but it seems at times his ability to evaluate veteran players was lacking.
“Terry Ryan is on record saying that he could not keep both and chose to keep LaCroy because he ‘had a higher upside”
That could be Terry Ryan taking the bullet (for the ownership) by NOT admitting the REAL reason was that Ortiz was going to be more expensive to keep.
Should Boston have offered Ortiz more than 1 million? Give them credit for such a shrewd pickup.
Could you have imagined if us commenters here were BoSox fans around that time?
I sometimes wonder just what the Red Sox saw in Ortiz to offer him that.
Ortiz’ isoP numbers his last two years with the Twins:
2001: .241
2002: .228
for comparison’s sake, last season Morneau and Kubel let the Twins in isoP with .199 and in Morneau’s MPV year he had a .238 isoP.
Jeff neither Beltre or Hardy will ever be Twins.
This is the more likely opening day lineup
1.Span LF
2.Casilla 2B
3.Mauer C
4.Morneau 1B
5.Cruddy RF
6.Harris/Buscher 3B
7.Kubel DH
8.Punto SS
9.Gomez CF
though I’d prefer
1.Span LF
2.Mauer C
3.Young RF
4.Morneau 1B
5.Kubel DH
6.Harris 3B
7.Gomez CF
8.Casilla 2B
9.Punto SS
I like this line up to best use the talent we currently posses. Which seems to be all we’re going to get for now.
sane,
I am not sure that Ortiz would have been that expensive to keep back then. They could have offered a 4 year 10 mil contract and he would have taken that…
“Wish List for 2009 and beyond
LF Span
C Mauer
SS Hardy a
1B Morneau
3B Beltre b
DH Kubel
RF Young
2B Casilla
CF Gomez
a) acquired via trade
b) 2010 free agent
Lol……. Is Bill Smith still on a family vacation somewhere??”
Is this a joke? Acquiring Beltre as a free agent? Tell you what, here’s my dream, never-gonna-happen-Twins-lineup-that-I-think-should-happen-and-therefore-get-pissed-when-it-doesn’t-happen-Twins-lineup
LF Span
2B Chase Utley (a)
C Mauer
DH Manny Ramirez (b)
1B Morneau
RF Josh Hamilton (c)
3B Evan Longoria (d)
SS Michael Young (e)
CF Curtis Granderson (f)
(a)–traded by PHL because they’re sorry they gave us LNP
(b)–signed for 3 years at 2 million per when Boras decides “I have enough money”
(c) and (e)–acquired from Texas in return for wind machines to blow balls back into ballpark
(d)–traded by TB because they “didn’t realize fans would dislike DY so much”
(f)–acquired by Detroit in return for Twins pledge to buy only Big 3 autos for 10 years.
Maybe it’s been said before but it bears repeating. Glad to learn that Mauer’s kidney ailment is “not serious” and pray for his complete and speedy recovery. Mauer is one of the core assets of the Twins organization and we hope he has a long, prosperous and successful baseball career.
thrylos,
“I am not sure that Ortiz would have been that expensive to keep back then. They could have offered a 4 year 10 mil contract and he would have taken that…”
LeCroy was probably $400,000.
Its all relative.
Mauer was a power hitter, in T-Ball. He did hit so hard he got kicked out after all.
RB good point
May Joe Mauer live long and prosper.
Ortiz blew up when he went to Boston because he batted in front of Manny.
I agree that the Red Sox, in hindsight, made a great signing on Ortiz, there’s no argument. But the fact that no one wanted to trade from him, and there were no other teams bidding for him (which is ultimately what made the 1 for 1 offer happen, not shrewdness on the BoSox’ part) just goes to show that Ortiz was not seen as a potential 40 HR guy BY THE ENTIRE LEAGUE.
Yes, speaking from a position of knowledge right now, it would’ve been great to have Ortiz (who knows what would have happened in ‘06 or ‘08 with him?), so yes, letting him go was a mistake. But lets remember this is the same team that took Johan in the rule 5, drafted Morneau, Baker, Slowey, and Neshek, turned Brian Buchanan into Jason Bartlett, took AJ (who they had no intention of keeping) and turned him into Joe Nathan, Boof, and the Franchise, and got Casilla for Romero, another guy who was not going to stay. There have also been a parade of guys who left the Twins, only to quickly decline (Hawkins, Eddie G, Mientkiewicz, Koskie, Jacque Jones). Has the FO made bad moves, yes. But they’ve made a lot more good ones.
Yeah, I gotta agree wtih Dan G. The only way the Twins have a shot at getting Beltre for any period of time would be a trade and sign this offseason.
Otherwise Beltre walks and winds up someplace like LA/Boston with a buttload of oney.
That word at the end should be “money”. Or “honey” if you think Beltre could be had for Winnie the Pooh money.
Why does it always seem like the Twins ownership is money hungry and greedy and that this gets in the way of possibly going to the WS.
Why don’t the Twins pick up Adam Dunn for DH. He is another FA and only a contract would be needed. Try a 2 year contract.
David -
It may very well be that Delmon Young doesn’t turn into a power hitter. But be careful with your comparisons. Justin Morneau’s first action at all at the MLB level was during his age 22 season. For his careers in the minors, Justin slugged .527. Delmon Young, on the other had, was in his 2nd full season at the major league level during his age 22 season, and his career minor league slugging percentage is .518.
I know it is tired and cliche at this point, but Delmon Young is very young. He’s the same age as guys like Billy Butler, Carlos Gomez, Asdrubal Cabrerra, Adam Jones, Daric Barton, etc. Now, there are definitely some young guys that have shown a lot of power - Evan Longoria is 22, and so is Chris Davis out of Texas. Jay Bruce of the Reds was 21 last year. But I think we as fans might forget that at times.
“Why does it always seem like the Twins ownership is money hungry and greedy and that this gets in the way of possibly going to the WS.”
I wouldn’t characterize them as money hungry. The Pohlads simply have no desire to spend more on the team than it will bring in. While we can debate whether the team is something that should be run for the betterment of the community, irregardless of the financial impact to its owner, it is Carl’s money, and Carl’s decision on how he would like to spend it. Personally, I would love to see him spend like Zygi, but I think we have pretty good reason to believe that at this point, he won’t change, so I for one have decided to accept it, and enjoy the players we have, rather than wish for players we don’t, and never will. Its much more enjoyable this way.
“Why don’t the Twins pick up Adam Dunn for DH. He is another FA and only a contract would be needed. Try a 2 year contract.”
Because he’s a career .247 hitter who strikes out more often than he gets a hit, as well as striking out 4.5 times for every homer he hits. Additionally, he’ll cost 10 to 12 million per year, and probably would not be interested in a 2 year deal anyways. Furthermore, he is an OF/DH, where the Twins already have a glut of players, and does nothing to upgrade the team’s biggest need which is offense and defense on the left side of the infield, or help in the bullpen. If the Twins are going to spend Adam Dunn money, they can get a decent SS/3B AND a MRP for that price, which will have a much bigger impact on the team.
The Giants appear to be taking a close look at free-agent third baseman Joe Crede. They’ve reviewed Crede’s medical report and don’t appear discouraged about pursuing him.
It seems likely that Crede can be had on a one-year deal; Scott Boras has done many such contracts to rebuild value. He’d be another excellent short-term addition for the Giants, who are remaking the team through smart free agent signings. Crede would complement new shortstop Edgar Renteria, who is well below average on plays to his right.
Oh no, not a strikeout!
Snepp, scroll up to one of my previous posts to learn why strikeouts are a bad thing.
Dan: consult all of baseball history to learn why strikeouts aren’t nearly as bad as you think they are.
My favorite strike year was the Hockey strike. I loved it cause the ratings on ESPN actually went up when they quit airing it
strikeouts or not, Dunn has a career .381 OBP and 130 OPS+
Sammy Sosa in his MVP year had 171 K (and 66 HRs)
here are the single season leaders in Ks:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/SO_season.shtml
they all have one thing in common: they are power hitters.
striking out 4.5 times for every homer he hits
These are the exact frequency of K/HR as Kubel’s last season. Span struck out 10 times for every home run he hit and Mauer 8.3 times…
4.5 is not that bad
make that 9.3 for Mauer
“and does nothing to upgrade the team’s biggest need which is offense and defense on the left side of the infield, or help in the bullpen.”
If there is one thing Adam Dunn does, he upgrades ANY team’s offense. Dunn is a GREAT offensive player and would be a welcome asset on any team.
I’m going to go ahead and figure if the Twins and Giants were to both offer Crede the same money…he’d take the Giants offer strictly to stay out of the Dome and off the turf.
With this being the last year at the Dome it would be fun to see Adam Dunn breaking speakers and scoreboards with lazer foul ball shots
Chief:
OBP is the single stat that best correlates to runs. Runs is the stats that best correlates to wins (out of the 8 playoff teams last year, 7 were in the top 17 in runs scored. The year before that 7 of 8 were in the top 18, including 6 of the top 8. The year before that, 7 of 8 were in the top 16. See a pattern?). As I described, the strikeout is the PA with the lowest chance of ending on base. Therefore, it is the worst out.
Does this mean that a guy who hits .220 but only strikes out 50 times is better than a guy who hits .300 but strikes out 100 times? No, of course not. But Adam Dunn is not and never will be a .300 hitter, and so his strikeouts are less acceptable than they would be for some one who hit for a better average. However, although I do not like his strikeouts, it is ultimately his position and his price tag that make me not want him.
La Velle,
unless there was a press release or something that contained most of the content you posted here, or unless you all sat down and wrote together, Thesier just plagiarized your post:
yikes :/
Dan G,
OBP is the single stat that best correlates to runs
Adam Dunn’s career OBP is .381. Look at OBP and OPS not at K’s
To Dan G
Loved your opening day lineup and the comments you made. Loyal Twins fans can sit on here and daydream while the fans of the Yankees, Indians, etc are all genuinely excited about the moves there front offices made. They can’t wait to see there “new look” teams take the field in 09. Meanwhile we sign R.A.Dickey!
So Dan, since Dunn K’s a lot, does that render his career .381 OBP (which correlates to runs so well) meaningless? How many Twins had a better OBP last year?
I don’t buy the arguement (advanced by many statheads) that K’s are no different than any other out.
But neither do I buy the arguement that strikeouts somehow invalidate what ever else a hitter does.
And maybe it’s just me, but I don’t put a lot of stock in batting average, unless you also tell me the guy’s OBP and SLG.
Jeff don’t forget we also signed LNP
Dan -
And OPS correlates better with runs scored than OBP. Dunn has the 25th highest career OPS in the league among active players with at least 3000 PA, and that includes guys like Barry Bonds, Frank Thomas, and Mike Piazza, who all probably won’t play next year. There are also names ahead of him like Sheffield, Edmonds, and Ken Griffey Jr., who look like they are all on their last legs.
Would Adam Dunn be better if he didn’t strike out as much? Sure. Absolutely. But even as he is, he is still on of the best offensive threats in baseball.
Dan G
Forget Dunn, forget DeRossa and all those slugs:
Burrell, JJ, Wiggy..= Playoffs
2 of 3 cost no players.
It’s none of my concern about the finances..that’s a FO job. If there is a hunger to win (and I know there isn’t) FO’s make these things happen no prob. 2 of the 3 are no brainers.
JJ will take some doing, but that’s the GM’s JOB! It’s right there for the taking.
thrylos -
“unless there was a press release or something that contained most of the content you posted here, or unless you all sat down and wrote together, Thesier just plagiarized your post:”
The two articles look similar, but what do you expect? It’s going a bit far to say she plagiarized LaVelle, I think.
Hi Thrylos
La Velle did say that he had a call from the Twins this morning. Possibly Theiser got the same call and the exact same information. La Velle just got it up a lot quicker then her.
What do you think of giving Crede a look for one year??
Jeff,
Crede was one of the slugs I mentioned..to risky health wise..Wiggy’s the one.
i meant too risky..sorry..
Wiggy for three..then go to our youngsters after that.
If there is a hunger to win (and I know there isn’t)
Which is absolute bull, since if the FO fails to put together a successful franchise the fans will stop supporting them financially. Can’t run a business if nobody buys the product.
JJ will take some doing, but that’s the GM’s JOB! It’s right there for the taking.
JJ Hardy is about as “out there for the taking” as is Justin Morneau.
The two articles look similar, but what do you expect? It’s going a bit far to say she plagiarized La Velle, I think.
Look at the structure of the article, what information is related and the order this information is related. Words are slightly different everything else is practically a synopsis of what La Velle posted 4 hours before her thing…
What do you think of giving Crede a look for one year??
I got a new nickname for him: CreDL
How does anyone knoow that the Brewers want to trade JJ Hardy. Can someone get me a link saying he is available via trade. Otherwise I should just be posting “We need Evan Longoria” or “We should get Chase Utley”
T,
you make my point.
Burrell, JJ, Wiggy= successful franchise, fan excitement and more support..
And I don’t know where you get your JJ info..Twins can make that deal, without hurting future success..in fact having JJ for 4 years helps the future of the club.
What am I missing here? I’m sorry but it’s not rocket science..maybe it is for the FO.
“Span struck out 10 times for every home run he hit and Mauer 8.3 times…”
Sure, but Span also had 1.7 hits and 2.5 BB+H per strikeout. Mauer had 3.5 hits and 5.2 BB+H per strikeout. Dunn had .74 hits and 1.5 BB+H per strikeout. The point is that Dunn, unless he hits a homer, is a rally killer, and in the worst way possible, as he’s less likely to even make a productive out and move a runner over.
“If there is one thing Adam Dunn does, he upgrades ANY team’s offense. Dunn is a GREAT offensive player and would be a welcome asset on any team.”
This is actually not true. Last year in 119 games Dunn played in Cincy, the Reds averaged 4.28 runs/game. In the 43 games without him they averaged 4.51. The Diamondbacks, on the other hand, averaged 4.53 runs/game without Dunn, and 4.43 with him. Thus, subtracting Dunn was positive for the Red’s offense, and adding him was detrimental to the D-backs. It should also be noted that as Dunn’s best contribution on offense is his power, these numbers would also decrease going from a hitter’s park in Cincy (PF of 104) and Arizona (PF: 107) to a pitcher’s park in Minny (PF 93).
So to recap, Dunn had a negative impact on offenses in hitter’s parks where homers are more frequent, therefore, his greatest redeeming offensive trait will be smaller in Minny, while his worst trait, will therefore by much more amplified.
How does anyone knoow that the Brewers want to trade JJ Hardy. Can someone get me a link saying he is available via trade.
Gammons started that last September by saying that the Brewers wanted to trade Fielder and Hardy to the Giants for Cain. Not sure whether there is a link in the web for it, but try googling Gammons Hardy Cain
Can someone get me a link saying he is available via trade.
I’ve got one to the Contrary: http://www.jsonline.com/sports/brewers/35629934.html
Most noteably this:
Contrary to rumors on the hot stove circuit, Melvin does not want to trade shortstop J.J. Hardy or his heir, Alcides Escobar, one of the best prospects in the minors, to acquire a starting pitcher.
“I don’t want to give up either one of our shortstops,” he said. “That’s a premium position. J.J. has two years left (before free agency). It’s just too hard to find shortstops.”
Melvin said trading Hardy and assuming Escobar is ready to replace him is a dangerous line of thinking. Other than a September call-up by the Brewers, Escobar has not played above the Class AA level.
Jimmy Bee,
If you go on Brewers website, you’ll see interview of JJ where he talks about being worried (since end of 08 season) that he’s going to be gone. That’s not the end all be all..but it gives you a clue that they’re thinking about it..
Second, Milw. needs pitching..they have NONE. It’s up to the Twins GM to MAKE the Brewers interested in this deal. We have what they desperately need. I stress desperately. That’s how I come to the conclusion.
Mark: Which holds more weight? Speculation from JJ Hardy or the words of the GM saying “I don’t want to trade him.”
, Dunn had a negative impact on offenses
If that were true, he would have a negative WPA (like Mike Lamb).
His WPA in 2008 was 2.82 better only by Mauer (4.88) and Morneau (3.83) in the Twins. Span had a 1.98 WPA.
“Gammons started that last September by saying that the Brewers wanted to trade Fielder and Hardy to the Giants for Cain”
How ’bout Fielder and Hardy for Liriano. He is about as good as Cain
That’s a nice quote by the Milw. GM..but we all know they say anything to represent more value for their player. And he says..he doesn’t “WANT” to give up JJ..doesn’t say he “WON’T”.
He’ll wake up one day soon and remember that they do need pitchers on their roster..we should be reminding him of this daily anyway.
thry: I think Dunn would be a good pick up AFTER upgrading the more dire needs at 3B and the pen.
As the upgrade from Kubel to Dunn at the DH spot (while significant) would likely not be as great as the upgrade from a Buscher/Harris platoon to somebody like Wigginton (or to a greater extent Beltre)
And he says..he doesn’t “WANT” to give up JJ..doesn’t say he “WON’T”.
People asked for a source. I provided a source. Take it as you will.
But if the GM feels like he has no need to trade JJ Hardy…you’re going to hard pressed to get him to trade Hardy. Because he’s going to hold ALL the leverage in negotations.
Dunn’s OBP and OPS are good, this is true. All of which goes back to my point of being able to accept him at a lower price than 10 or 12 million per year. They’ll have to give him at least 3 years, and Joe’s contract is up before then, so that means in 2011, they could be paying Joe, Justin, Joe Nathan and Dunn close to 50 million. Even if they raise their payroll to say 90 million by then, that leaves only 40 million for 22 guys to split, or less than 2 million per. Which means there is no way the Twins can keep Span, Gomez, Liriano, Baker, Slowey, Casilla, Young, Blackburn and Perkins.
So while it looks like we don’t give up anything by getting Dunn, we’re in reality giving up probably at least 2 of those guys in that list, just not right away, and to me, its not worth it.
T,
I agree with you 100%. If Dunn were RH and could play 3B well, the Twins should have made him a priority. He isn’t.
I am not discussing whether or not he should be a priority for the Twins, I am just saying that he is a pretty darn good player.
We haven’t had a player of Dunn’s presence in a Twins uni with power since Hrbek.
T,
Neither holds more weight..I’m saying forget what they say..look at the facts.
They can say whatever they want.
When it’s reported on this site that Twins FO made an incredible deal to Milw for JJ and they flat turned Twins down, then I’ll believe they’re not interested. Also believe that we at least gave it our best shot. That’s all i ask. If they don’t they don’t..TRY…it’s the FO’s job.
I would love to have Hardy but I would imagine that the Brewers would want a Baker, Liriano, or Slowey in the package. The Red Sox were trying to get Hanley Ramirez back. We might stand a better chance with competing with that deal as Florida always wants to go younger. I bet the Red Sox wish they never traded that guy in the first place for Lowell.
“, Dunn had a negative impact on offenses
If that were true, he would have a negative WPA (like Mike Lamb).
His WPA in 2008 was 2.82 better only by Mauer (4.88) and Morneau (3.83) in the Twins. Span had a 1.98 WPA.”
So we should just ignore the fact that his teams scored less with him and more without him?
So we should just ignore the fact that his teams scored less with him and more without him?
based on the WPA numbers what you stated is not a fact…
and hello..RH Dunn…that would be Burrell..at least, close enough. He’s on my list of guys.
Jeff,
you are correct about the pitching..and I’m saying so? do it..I’m not afraid to lose one of our starters..we have pitching..what we don’t have is an Everyday, productive SS.
or .328 avrg and 8 homers. Assume he plays 130 games and averages 4.3 at bats per game = 130×4.3x.328=183 hits
or 130×4.3x.275=154 hits.
Difference one 1 hit per extra per 4.48 games. I’ll take the power. I think joe can do both he just has to quit dragging the barrel for the opposite field hit and the weak ground double plays, come on and turn on those inside pitches.
“based on the WPA numbers what you stated is not a fact…”
based on simple division, it is
Cincinnati on August 11, the day Dun was traded, had played 119 games, and scored 510 runs–4.28 runs/games. At season’s end, Cincy had scored 704 runs. 704-510=194. 162-119=43. 194/43=4.51 runs per games. Extrapolated over the course of an entire season, the Red’s offense would have scored 37 additional runs without Dunn. Individual stats are just fine, but you also need to look at the team, and the fact is that based on the only stat that matters at the end of the day, the Reds and D-Backs were both better off without Dunn than with him.
I’m saying forget what they say..look at the facts.
Like the article in which the Brewers GM states he doesn’t want to trade Hardy? You mean that fact?
Here’s the problem with your logic Mark. If the Twins throw what you would likely consider an “incredible deal” a the Brewers….the Brewers aren’t going to turn it down?
Why is that?
Because the deal would be so ungodly lopsided that Smith would be rightfully laughed at for the rest of his GM career.
The Brewers have absolutely no motivation to move Hardy.
1) They can sign a starting pitcher and keep Hardy.
2) Hardy still has 2 years of arbitration before he hits Free Agency.
3) The Brewers have stated they’re not confident their current projected replacement is ready to take over.
This means there is aboslutely no pressure for Melvin to move Hardy at this time. So unless you’ve got one humdinger of a package…it ain’t happening.
Jeff,
If you’re saying you’re OK with the guys we got now, I’m fine with that.
But it’s not good enough to make a deep run. Now is our time in the sun. The Stars are so lined up right now. New Ballpark Money, (not to mention the Billions the Yankees and others give us each year), Great young core team, nice young starters, M & M, Nathan…just add a few crucial pieces and we’re talking deep into the playoffs..and not just for this coming year. I still haven’t heard a good reason why this isn’t so. Tell me again what the problem is?
That’s all i ask. If they don’t they don’t..TRY…it’s the FO’s job.
Here’s how far Smith would get “trying”.
*ring ring*
Melvin: “Hello?”
Smith: “Hi. This is Bill Smith from the Twins. We’d like to talk about Har-”
*click*
T LOL ring ring LOL
T,
I understand what you’re saying..I do.
tell me what that humdinger of a package that Milw. would accept is?
Serious…in your mind, what would they take? I’m truly interested. Thx for the discussion.
Jeff: The Red Sox got Beckett as part of that deal as well if I recall…so I dunno if there’s that much regret.
Mark: what we don’t have is an Everyday, productive SS.
And if we aquired Hardy…we likely wouldn’t have a couple of starters and a leadoff hitter.
Dan G,
here is the danger with that logic:
Fact: The Twins had a better record and scored more runs when Gomez was the #1 hitter than when Span was the #1 hitter
Conclusion: Gomez should be the #1 hitter.
Bad conclusion.
Serious…in your mind, what would they take?
Since your the one who apprently thinks a deal is possible, I’d rather see what you consider to be “incredible deal”.
T,
We just disagree on JJ..I don’t believe for one second that Milw. wouldn’t entertain a serious offer from the Twins. As I said, As soon as it’s reported here that they did turn us down, I’ll still be waiting.
T,
Sounds like you think it’s Span, Baker, Perkins. If it is..then forget it.
I think what you’re missing with my comment is this. It’s not my job to make this happen. It’s the FO of the Twins. So let’s write them and ask them who Milw. has turned down exactly for JJ..I’d like to know.
Mark Baker and Span
Mark believe me I am not satisfied with our present team. I would love nothing more for Bill Smith to go after a Hardy, or Hanley Ramirez to bat between Mauer, and Morneau. We would have three hitters in a row that would be some of the best in baseball. I am very frustrated as are most Twins fans that Bill Smith did nothing to help our bullpen either. He has had the chances to do that at the trade deadline and this winter to no avail. We have a good young team and only need a couple more pieces is all.
During the winter meetings, Melvin said that he had one formal offer for Hardy and the only thing the other club offered was a “fifth-starter type”. Maybe BS actually tried to offer one of Bonser/Humber and Perkins. Who knows…
T,
Are you opposed at least to the Twins making an offer to Milw? Email an offer instead of calling..or better yet Text him. He will respond in some fashion. Then we can say we made an offer and they refused. If that happens I’m fine with it..what I’m not fine with, is making zero effort because it says somewhere that they don’t want to trade him.
All the same Thrylos, since my original argument was to counter the idea that Dunn is a large boost to any offense (as stated by another poster), my logic is that if that assertion is true, why then were offenses better WITHOUT him? I’m not saying that any team that acquires Dunn will have reduced offensive output, simply that its not a slam-dunk that acquiring him turns our offense into the ‘27 Yankees.
Jeff,
We totally agree..thanks..
Thrylos…If BS only offered Milw that deal as you mentioned, then shame on him.
It’s not my job to make this happen. It’s the FO of the Twins.
You can’t make something happen when there’s nothing there.
All you want is “proof” of something that didn’t happen. You’re assuming that the Brewers would even entertain the notion of trading Hardy.
If they feel that Hardy can be had reasonably then they’ll make an offer and the Brewers will take it or leave it.
But the Twins have aboslutely ZERO obligation to throw some random offer at the Brewers simply to appease you.
Runs scored with a player vs. runs scored without a player, ignores all other variables which varied in the same time period and also factored into runs scored.
Cause and effect is not proven.
“This is actually not true.”
It’s absolutely true. Adam Dunn got on base 41.7 percent of the time with the Diamondbacks. And, as you said, the best single stat (not counting OPS) correlates best with runs scored. Baseball is still a team sport - Dunn can’t bat for everyone in the lineup. If you are looking for some goats, check out the following three players and their OPS for the Diamondbacks, all with at least 100 PA after they picked up Dunn -
Ojeda - .584
Jackson - .671
Reynolds - .679
Snyder - .811
Young - .899
Dunn - .889
Drew - .927
Unless you are going to blame Dunn for the OPS of other players, I see no way you can blame him for the Diamondback’s failure to score runs.
I’m sure the opposite is in reverse for the Reds. For example, they stopped hitting Corey Patterson lead-off. They brought up Jay Bruce. Joey Votto had more experience. Etc.
If BS only offered Milw that deal as you mentioned, then shame on him.
I can already see it. A week from now the Strib rally cry will be “Smith was a moron for only offering Perkins for hardy.”
And all they’ll have to go on is thrylos’ comment.
T,
Also Punto would be apart of any deal for JJ that I would make..thus solving there problem of the other guy not being ready for a yr or two.
their problem..srry again.
The Brewers *could* sign a FA pitcher, but I see 2 issues:
1. FA pitcher wouldn’t be as cheap as young pitcher obtained via trade.
2. The Brewers need to replace TWO starting pitchers, who happened to be their 1-2 guys.
The fact is the Twins and Brewers are natural trading partners-as long as the Brewers don’t sub in Bill Hall (don’t need another 1 year wonder) or the Brewers ask for Slowey, Blackburn, and Span for Hardy.
Maybe I need to get my family in the Milwaukee area to get on the horn and harass Melvin?
I don’t know what to say to people that think Mauer isn’t important. He gets on base at a .400 clip. He hits .300 with ease. All while playing top notch defense behind the plate and calling a great game. He is one of the 5 most indispensible players in baseball. Ask the redsox how easy it is to replace a good catcher. You can replace his production by picking up a new OF but you can’t pick up a catcher that can match Mauers production. If you need homeruns to get excited about baseball you should probably find another sport or team.
I should also add that “it’s not my job” is no excuse for not being willing to give what you think a given player is worth.
Especially since it’s a common backdoor for complainers to sneak out of. You can never be wrong in accusing the FO of being cheap if you never state what you consider fair.
I will give you Boof, LNP and Baker for Chase Utley just because I want him and there you go. I just want him now and so you have to give me him.
Also Punto would be apart of any deal for JJ that I would make..thus solving there problem of the other guy not being ready for a yr or two.
Melvin would hang up on you for saying Punto before you could explain why.
my original argument was to counter the idea that Dunn is a large boost to any offense (as stated by another poster), my logic is that if that assertion is true, why then were offenses better WITHOUT him
Again, if the Twins offense was better with Gomez in the leadoff spot than with Span (based on the same measure i.e. the Twins scored more runs with Gomez than with Span leading off), why shouldn’t Gomez be the #1 hitter?
(he shouldn’t because like the Reds runs score with or without Dunn, there are a lot of extraneous factors like: strength of schedule before and after Dunn, quality of pitching faced (minor league call ups in September), additional trades/call ups etc…
You cannot take a single player, look at a team’s record with or without him and draw conclusions about him in a vaccum.
There are a
T,
Who said anything about a random offer being thrown at Milw?????
I’m talking about a well thought out, proposal that works for both teams.
I assume these people are capable of such things.
jimmybee: Since the Phillies turned down that deal, I’m going to assume that you never actually wanted Utley and were just lowballing to try and appease the fans.
Like Thrylos said possibly it was the Twins who approached the Brewers with a formal deal. Unfortunately G.M.’s don’t have to report to all of us on what he did or did not offer a team. I have to believe they would at least want one of our starters and a guy who can play centerfield for them.
“I’m sure the opposite is in reverse for the Reds. For example, they stopped hitting Corey Patterson lead-off. They brought up Jay Bruce. Joey Votto had more experience. Etc.”
Then why did Arizona score fewer runs? The point is that two teams were worse offensively at opposite stretches of the year. There is one common denominator, which is a guy who yes, hits a lot of homeruns, but doesn’t do much outside of that. Perhaps he’s not a good guy in the clubhouse (I have no idea, I’ve never heard anything one way or the other) and when he wasn’t on a team, the players were happy and played better. I’m just saying that there are measurable decreases in runs when Dunn played for a team last year.
I did not say that Smith offered only Perkins for Hardy. All I said was that Melvin said that he had one formal offer for Hardy and that was for a 5th starter type.
Could be Smith, could not be Smith
Funny what you say about Punto..I’ve read so many places that GM’s all over MLB were dying to sign him but he chose to come back to Twins. If they love him so much, here is their chance. And by saying that he’d hang up on us, it makes my point about the problem we have at SS!
I’m talking about a well thought out, proposal that works for both teams.
If the proposal “works” for both teams, then it wouldn’t be rejected. Because it “works”. >_<
And for the deal to “work” for the Brewers, it would have to be unbalanced and thus not “work” for the Twins.
And for the deal to “work” for the Twins, it wouldn’t be enough and thus not “work” for the Brewers.
I’m officially going to dub it the “Strib Board Special”. That mythical package of players a given commenter doesn’t like which they believe will easily net 1 or 2 players they do.
I did not say that Smith offered only Perkins for Hardy. All I said was that Melvin said that he had one formal offer for Hardy and that was for a 5th starter type.
No. I get that. What I’m saying is give it a week, and the commenters around here will turn it into “Smith offered Perkins for Hardy.”
All I know is that if BS made a legitimate offer to Melvin for JJ, it WOULD be reported.
All I know is that if BS made a legitimate offer to Melvin for JJ, it WOULD be reported.
It’s never going to happen. Because GM’s have more important things to do than to make offers they know will be rejected.
I’m talking about a well thought out, proposal that works for both teams.
To speculate… For the Twins not to weaken their team only the following 25 man roster players should be tradable if the result is Hardy:
Cuddyer
Harris
Buscher
Perkins
Bonser
Humber
Guerrier
do you see a combination of the above plus minor leaguers that would be acceptable to Milwaukee for Hardy? And this assumes that Hardy will be the 3B and Punto the SS.
And this assumes that Hardy will be the 3B and Punto the SS.
That’s a pretty bad assumption to make. If the FO landed Hardy they wouldn’t pull him out of position would they?
T,
you haven’t yet said how it would be so unbalanced for the Twins. If the Twins policy is “We absolutely won’t trade Baker, Slowey or Liriano” then fine.
I don’t agree with it. But it also says to me, “we will continue to be competitive, but we’re not that interested in anything beyond that, if it costs too much or if we have to trade a quality starter. what really gets me is that so many fans are ok with this policy. It’s unreal to me.
“Then why did Arizona score fewer runs? ”
Probably because Ojeda, Jackson, and Reynolds stunk up the joint. Maybe because of the opposition they were playing. Perhaps the ball doesn’t carry as well in Arizona in August and September as it does in March, April, May, June, and July. There are a TON of other factors it could be.
How can you look at Adam Dunn’s numbers and think that HE was the problem? He had the 23rd highest OBP - out of 232 players with at least 100 PA - in the majors. You have already acknowledged the correlation it has with runs scored. Wouldn’t it be more logical that it was something else?
Mark,
“All I know is that if BS made a legitimate offer to Melvin for JJ, it WOULD be reported.”
No it would not.
Only accepted offers are SUPPOSED TO BE REPORTED.
No GM wants his players to know they were offered in trade. It happens, but it is a breach of etiquette.
Which of the Red Sox/Yankee offers for Santana were REPORTED last year, compared to those RUMORED.
T,
Gardy said that Punto was his SS so I assume that he would be, unless he gets traded. Hardy was slated to move to 3B by the Brewers next season
Why do some of you want to give up starting pitching to get Hardy? The Twins have a bunch of guys who may or may not regress (Blackburn)/get injured again (Liriano)/be mediocre (Perkins). If any of those things happen, there could be serious holes in the rotation next season. The most reliable guys (IMO) are Slowey and Baker, who weren’t even a factor a few years ago. The Twins got lucky last year because all of these young guys did a competent job- I think it’s a big risk to assume that another crop of rookies from AAA is ready to step up again.
I demand proof that we are not trying to trade Boof, LNP and Baker for Chase Utley. I demand it or the Twins FO stinks. Now, now, now…..
Thrylos,
pretty good list, but as I said..I would include Punto in the deal..so JJ would play SS and Wiggy would play 3B..
and I would be willing to replace your starter with Baker or Slowey. Losing one of them doesn’t cripple the team in my view. It helps if we get JJ..Again,
if everyone wants to go forward with Punto at SS, Bushy/Harris at 3B then just say so..that’s sure what it sounds like to me..and it’s not going to be enough.
“You cannot take a single player, look at a team’s record with or without him and draw conclusions about him in a vaccum.”
I agree, which is why I’m looking at two situations he featured prominently in. Of the factors you mentioned, one (September call-ups) can be thrown out, as both the Reds and the D-Backs would play teams with September call-ups.
As for the SOS, the D-Backs had 7 series on the road, 7 at home. They played 6 games against a playoff team (Dodgers). The Reds had 8 on the road and 6 at home, and had 12 games against playoff teams. Obviously, I haven’t done extensive digging, but the Reds seem to have had a harder schedule, meaning the easier part of their schedule was earlier in the year, with Dunn.
Why do some of you want to give up starting pitching
The Twins have the problem of having 3 #5 type starters (Perkins, Bonser, Humber) without options, not enough space on the pen if they will add a set up man and added 2 more (Jones and Dickie). Dickie will probably start in Rochester, but the math says that 2 of Perkins, Bonser, Humber and Jones will go.
Some of the injury talk went overboard, and I believe he should remain behind the plate because that might be the most vital position on the field and it’s not often you can put a batting champion there. Mauer, still only 25, batted .328 with 9 homers and 85 RBI last season - and I still think he can hit 15-20 homers in a season one of these years
blah, he’ll never hit 20 and hit for a high average, and the average is all he cares about. also, his fielding is completely overrated. He needs to be moved from behind the plate.
I demand proof that we are not trying to trade Boof, LNP and Baker for Chase Utley. I demand it or the Twins FO stinks. Now, now, now….. Hurry up I can’t wait any longer
Sy,
Ok use your termonology,,we’d hear rumours here that an offer was made..I’m ok with hearing a rumour right about now.
Mark,
Slowey should be untouchable or traded only for a young MVP type of player (Hanley Ramirez, Evan Longoria) with a lot of club control. His peripherals last year were better than Santana’s
Hockey Guru Dan,
Start wearing your helmet!
Swannie,
Because we have no productive everyday SS..and we could get a potential All Star SS..that’s my answer.
We have pitching..one guy won’t ruin the roster and if they’re so fragile and could regress, than even more of a reason so trade ‘em, for an everyday player who we can have for 4-5 yrs.
Thrylos,
I love Slowey too, but untouchable? Not sure. If they feel that way, offer someone else..I’ll give up now.
Enjoyed the process.
Happy New Year all.
you haven’t yet said how it would be so unbalanced for the Twins.
I already have. It would likely be a couple of MLB starters and an OF. Probably Span (he seems the most popular in trade talks this year).
See thrylos post for the realistic assesssment of what the Twins could afford to offer without crippling their roster elsewhere in the process.
But it also says to me, “we will continue to be competitive, but we’re not that interested in anything beyond that, if it costs too much or if we have to trade a quality starter.
No. What it says is “We will look to fill a need, but we are not going to get fleeced just to appease a handful of vocal fans.”
“How can you look at Adam Dunn’s numbers and think that HE was the problem? He had the 23rd highest OBP - out of 232 players with at least 100 PA - in the majors. You have already acknowledged the correlation it has with runs scored. Wouldn’t it be more logical that it was something else?”
The same way I can look at Stephon Marbury scoring 20 a night for 4 different teams, and each one of them improving when he leaves. Or how every team has been better after A-Rod left, and no team has so much as even made it to a World Series with him.
pretty good list, but as I said..I would include Punto in the deal..
You’re not “including” Punto. You’re “throwing in” Punto. There’s a difference.
I would trade a Slowey, Humber/Bonser, and one of our AAA starters for Ramirez. I love Slowey but to get a guy like Hanley Ramirez you gotta go there I am sure.
LNP is the Twins MVP
“but we’re not that interested in anything beyond that, if it costs too much”
Nothing that “costs too much” is worth it, BY DEFINITION.
(See Faustian bargain)
Dan G: “Chemistry” is something that is hard to account for. And can be a whole bunch of circumstantial things coming together.
For example, you could blame some of the Yankees troubles on A-Rod arriving. But at the same time…they’ve also been signing a lot of old pitchers that started to show their wear.
Damon and Matsui’s injury problems, combined with that year where Giambi (who was definately not on steroids) started shrivling into nothing.
It’s like those who argue that the Rays dumped Young and that’s why their awesome.
“Slowey should be untouchable or traded only for a young MVP type of player (Hanley Ramirez, Evan Longoria) with a lot of club control. His peripherals last year were better than Santana’s”
The problem would be convincing the Rays or Marlins of Slowey’s value.
Basketball is a different game. It’s not like Dunn does not have the same AB opportunities as his teammates because he dribbles and shoots without passing the ball around.
I’m not advocating for Dunn, but he would be better in a situation where he didn’t hurt his team with his D.
Can anyone imagine the OF if we had Dunn, Gomez and DY
jb,
Dunn is a DH. His fielding is Ruiz-like at best.
Sorry Thrylos I just meant that the 3 together would make for a bit of excitement
Thrylos and Mark: I don’t think you can count on everyone to be back and perform just as well next season, although it would be great if they did. Getting an All-Star shortstop would be wonderful, but if you lose two good pitchers in a trade (the Brewers would be fools to accept less) and then another goes down to injury or isn’t effective, suddenly your options get more limited. I don’t want to see Boof back starting games just because the Twins ran out of guys and Slama/Humber/whoever didn’t work out right away.
thrylos -
I have noticed many times that you call Glen Perkins a number 5 starter, and I wonder what you are basing that on.
Using data from FanGraphs.com, I have found that there were 153 ’starters’ in MLB last year that threw at least 70 innings. That is almost perfect, as there should be 150 starters in baseball if all teams had 5 guys start for the entire season.
Anyway, looking at most stats, Perkins isn’t anywhere near the bottom except for K/9 IP. His WHIP was 107th, his WPA 78th, 92rd in K/BB, and 140th in K/9 IP.
I understand the importance of K/9 IP, but it shouldn’t be the only way to judge a pitcher. As I see it, Perkins would be a 3 or 4 starter for almost any other team in the league - not a 5.
Michael Cuddyer on MLB Hotstove tonight
Thrylos,
I’m thinking we may have to agree to disagree on Dunn. My point was never that he’s a bad player, and that the Twins should not be interested in him under any circumstances. My point was that given that it will take at least 12 million to sign him (and since he made 13 last year, he’d be accepting a pay cut to do that), and given we don’t have an opening form him, and given that he’s a lefty who is really bad against lefties, and given that he strikes out a lot, and given that we would have to give up on signing a couple of your young guys in order to afford him, I think he’s a bad move for the Twins.
If Pohlad spent like Steinbrenner, then I would say sure. We can afford him, we can keep your young guys, great, lets do it. But the several small to significant negatives about him outweigh his positives when it comes to the Twins.
I also agree with Pete D on Perkins. He shut down the Yankees and the Angels in back to back games in mid-August, and I think by the end of the year, he was just tired. Remember, it was his first full year as a starter in the majors, and he had never thrown that many innings before. I honestly expect all 5 of our young starters to be better this year.
Dan G,
Great Synopsis on your position. I, for one, am sold on your argument.
you call Glen Perkins a number 5 starter, and I wonder what you are basing that on
I am basing that on
a. numbers:
Last season Perkins had
1.47 WHIP 1.90 K/BB and 4.41 K/9
the MLB starter average was
1.39 WHIP 2.06 K/BB 6.20 K/9
So he is bellow average in all categories.
b. his stuff. He is primarily a 2 pitch pitcher and hitters hit .351 off his slider and .299 off his fastball
and if you don’t believe me, here is an article published today by baseball prospectus on Perkins:
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=8397
Glad to hear BabyJesus is getting ready to go for 2009. Now only if Billy Smith would get off his ARSE and do something besides signing LNP. Two thing should be done
1) Sign Adum Dunn FA — no draft picks or players lost.
2) make a trade for one of the following Hardy,Aitkins, Beltre
My ideal 2009 not batting order
C- Mauer
1B - Morneau
2B - Casilla
3B - Harris/Buscher/Punto
SS - Hardy
RF - Span
CF - Gomez
LF - Young
DH - Dunn
Personally I would prefer an Aitkins/Street trade to help the bullpen as well. Beltre would also help but FA in 2010 and Boras.. no trade is just a way to get more money not a stumbling block.
I LOVE JOE MAUER. Glad he’s okay.
thrylos -
Yes, he was below average in all of those categories - and so were, by definition, 1/2 of the other starters in baseball. And the article you linked to is really about fantasy baseball - and I wouldn’t draft a number 4 starter in most of my leagues, so I don’t really see the correlation.
Like I said - he’s probably a 3 or 4 starter for most teams in the league. Which is below average, for sure, but better than what most teams throw out in the bottom of their rotation.
BFE: Just a heads up, but if you plan on having Atkins, Beltre, or Hardy in the lineup…I’m thinking you’ll probably have to scratch either Span or Young (mostly likely Span if it’s Atkins)
Text of my email sent to Bill Smith:
Dear Mr. Bill Smith,
Make these 2 trades and the Twins will breeze into the World Series:
1)Trade four crummy players to the Mets for Johan Santana.
2)Trade three really crummy players to the Rays for Matt Garza.
Yes, those would be truly lopsided trades. You have your work cut out for you, but as you know, trades like this have happened before.
Go get ‘em, tiger.
Sincerely,
Tender Loving Craig
Like I said - he’s probably a 3 or 4 starter for most teams in the league. Which is below average, for sure
ok. Here is another number:
his value over replacement (VORP) was -0.6 last season, which means that an average minor leaguer would have been better than him.
I know that most teams have bad #4 or #5 starters. However, winning teams have better starters.
My point is that unless Perkins works hard to improve, the Twins should look for other options inside or outside the organization and if there was one starting pitcher to go, it should be Perkins
Unfortunately many teams know this, and thus won’t be as willing to deal for him.
Here’s a question, on the Twins current roster…what kinds of players would a team come knocking for comparred to players the Twins would have to offer?
I’m guessing Span and Young fit into the first category. While Kubel and Cuddyer would likely be in the latter.
Slowey and Blackburn appear to be popular requests in trades, comparred to Perkins and Bonser…
I don’t think the Twins would ignore those who suggest Mauer, Nathan, Morneau, Baker and Liriano. Unless they were bowled over by something REALLY stupid.
Should be “I think the Twins would”
Andy,
Why so hard on Maurer? He is a great player. A great guy. Are you so jealous of his success that you bring up this Baby Jesus stuff? It’s great to see a local kid play for his hometown team and excell. You probably hated Hrbek too, another great guy.
what kinds of players would a team come knocking for comparred to players the Twins would have to offer?
Based on several things out there it seems (unfortunately) that the Twins are dangling Young out there… Teams are looking for cheap, team controlled talent, so players like Span, Slowey, Baker, maybe Casilla and Liriano might be on other teams’ radars. Mauer, Nathan and Morneau might be in 3-4 teams’ radars because they cost more and their contracts are probably in par with their production. If Morneau has a 40 HR season, things might change…
RE: So sick of not seeing Homeruns!!
I really don’t understand the folks who think that homeruns are an essential component of baseball and that if a team isn’t filled with sluggers, somehow they are complete failures and the G.M. and manager should be ridiculed mercilessly.
If the game of baseball were all about the homerun (which, unfortunately some players thought it was and began doping to hit the long ball and get the big bucks), then it wouldn’t be baseball.
It would be SOFTBALL.
Baseball is a team sport with each individual hitter using his abilities to drive in runs, not merely hit it out of the park.
Baseball’s image is becoming too similar to the NBA with far too much emphasis on one, unspectacular and selfish play.
MLB=Homeruns
NBA=Slam Dunk
Booooooooooorrrriiinnng!
I like rallies where the Twins rack up 7-8 hits in an inning and we watch the runners run from base to base with every bloop single, double to the corner and triple to the gap.
Far more entertaining and confidence building for an entire team, not just one player.
Screw homeruns. They are an exception, not the rule.
Once again I tried to come here, read a little LEN III news and some comments, and was immediately struck by how heartless and insensitive some people are about Joe Mauer. Back to ignoring the comment section.
Get well soon, Joe! Can’t wait for spring training to start!
Thrylos
If you were the GM of the Twins what trade would you propose to the Brewers for Hardy and to the Marlins for Ramirez?? A trade that would be realistic to both sides.
I agree Hot Tamale.
Most of the negativity is likely coming from a few useless people with nothing better to do than “stir the pot” about something they don’t even care about in the first place.
They’re just looking for a little bit of attention. If they moved out of their mommy’s basement, maybe they’d get it.
If you were the GM of the Twins what trade would you propose to the Brewers for Hardy and to the Marlins for Ramirez?
I should probably take the fifth here, but…
Frankly I am not that high on Hardy. Have a look at his minor league numbers and at his numbers his first 2 season in the majors. I am not sure that Trevor Plouffe, if treated properly, cannot put Hardy-like numbers. So, I wouldn’t really go after Hardy
I like Hanley Ramirez’ bat a lot. That said, he is pretty mediocre on the field and might be a better third baseman than shortstop and when Buscher is projected for 70% of the time out there, Ramirez will not be any worse. What would be a fair trade based on what the Marlins need and the Twins want to give up? Blackburn, Perkins, Plouffe, Tolleson, Revere, Ostebrock might do it.
but
If I were the Twins’ GM, I would go hard after Uggla and offer the Marlins Casilla and Perkins for starters.
Thrylos
Way to put your neck out there! Unfortunately for Twins fans it has come to this to pass the winter!
I agree that I would much prefer Ramirez over Hardy. I actually think that Tolleson will pass by Plouffe someday soon unfortunately. Thus making him more in the Hardy mode then Plouffe. I like Uggla alot and I would definitely make that deal of Perkins and Casilla “to start”. But if your willing to go for an Uggla you may as well shoot for an MVP type of player in Ramirez who would be extremely affordable until 2012 I think. I would be happy if Smith called and tried to work something out with any of the three of above players.
Jeff,
another guy the Twins can dangle out there is Dustin Martin. He is MLB ready and way blocked in the Twins’ outfield
Thrylos,
I wanted to tell you that I really became a believer in Kevin Slowey earlier last summer. We had tickets behind the Twins dugout in Petco. If you remember it was Slowey vs. Peavy. Slowey pitched a fantastic although he did not get the win. We hit two homers in the 8th and 9th to win 3-1. What a great game to see and it has impressed me with Slowey ever since. I would hate to let that guy go.
You better put Ramirez and Uggla on your new 2009 Wish List too!
You better put Ramirez and Uggla on your new 2009 Wish List too
Uggla was in my proposed moves list 
I just don’t think that Ramirez will move. Kevin Slowey is a very special pitcher and the Twins’ fans should feel very happy that he is with them. When all is said and done, he would be regarded as one of the top 5 pitchers this franchise ever had (and I am including Walter Johnson and Steve Carlton in the list of the top 5 )
almost 260 postings today on a story about mauers kidneys…just shows how much interest us twins fans have in this team and our desire for them to do the right things in this off season…unfortuntely i dont think any of us are going to be blown away with any of the dream trades and scenarios y’all write about, trading for hardy, ramirez etc…those deals im sure will never, ever happen…unfortunately we dont have billy beane, or trader jack pulling the trigger for us, as we have a guy named bill smith, who i think is actually afraid to come out in public…does anybody ever see or hear from this dude??? wheres the media?? i have hardly read anything from this guy all year, but anyway back to the dream trades you guys are wishing for…i think the best we can hope is that they find a way to get a power hitting 3rd baseman like wiggy in here, as he may not be the best, but hes the best we can do maybe without trading away stars…if we could get him and keep all the other pieces i would like to see young become more of a dh (provided cuddy has a good spring and produces)with kubel and work into a rotation with all the oufielders, giving each a day off now and then, thus having a 4 man rotation in that outfield, so that all stay fresh and hopefully healthy…young will hit more hr as he matures and if his bat picks up he may be better protection for morneau than we think now….wiggy would do fine at 3rd and could add 20-25 homeruns. and thats a gamechanger for us—hardy would be nice, but we have signed punto for that job and i dont see it being taken away from him for any reason…so lets keep our pitching staff in tact and find a good piece to add to the bullpen, lets sign wiggy to add some punch to 3rd base and maybe platoon a bit with buscher, as i see wiggy doing some dh also and play a bit at 1b…..punto will be ok if he stays healthy and can hit .275 or better, lets hope casilla stays on track along with span and hope gomez learned a bit in winter ball…and if a trade has to be made somewhere let go of kubel and any AAA players, pitchers and otherwise except for maybe hicks….if all that happens i think these twins will be very solid next year and ready to make that next leap to the world series….and i am sorry for a rather long rant, but i love the interest y’all show in this team- lets hope bill smith has the same desires…
I guess I get the obsession for home run/power hitters, no team can win without them.
Should the Twins happen to sign Wiggy, I will book/take under 15 HR’s up to a C-note for all takers.
Regards,
mj1 -
I was going to say the same thing about the number of posts. A lot of fans anxious for baseball to start. I always get to these when everyone else has posted & moved on to somewhere else. Oh well.
Uggla is just now entering his arbitration years. The Marlins have Ramirez signed thru 2014 and at bargain rates for what he brings. Uggla is the one who may be available. But would Casilla get a fair shot at SS or is that committed to Punto?
personally i think this team and we would be disappointed in uggla….theres something just stiff about this guy and i say that with pretty limited knowledge of him, just my impressions watching him the few times i could….maybe i am all wrong
Hmmm.. I was just looking at his stats. Have no idea of him as a person/teammate. Ramirez is not going anywhere and Uggla will be made available at some point. That’s what I was basing my comments on. That and he hits 30+ home runs per year.
its the same thing with uggla and thats the cost in getting him,(uggla)..the twins have some depth but not so much that they can just dealing away without hurting the nucleus of this team..this team has a chance to have 4-5 pitchers who could possibly all win 15-18 games very soon –maybe wishful thinking, but i would really like to see this staff stay intact and see how it develops…i keep thinking of the old braves and that bunch…just maybe???
From MLB Trade Rumors:
According to Roch Kubatko of MASN Online, the White Sox have discussed a trade with the Orioles for second baseman Brian Roberts.
Right-hander Gavin Floyd would be sent over from Chicago. The White Sox reportedly want to make it a straight-up swap, but the Orioles, predictably, are asking for more. Floyd, 25, went 17-8 last season with a 3.84 ERA and actually grew up in the Baltimore area.”
So it appears another AL Central foe is looking to improve.
Anyone think the Twins could offer the O’s a better deal for Robeerts?
Hope you’re feeling better Joe! Good luck in 2009…we’ll be watching!!
Span, Casilla and one of Humber/Mulvey for Uggla?
It would hurt, but I could live with dealing Span in the right deal. There’s a good chance, IMO, Span is going to have trouble duplicating last season, and teams that see him as a center fielder might overvalue him right now. And the Twins are loaded with center field options for the next decade or so, and have the spare OF parts to lose one right now.
It wouldn’t bother me a bit to see Casilla go in a deal that brings back another 2nd baseman, and one of Humber/Mulvey is an acceptable price.
Would that get it done? And would adding Uggla’s bat be worth the cost?
Maybe, and yes, IMO.
I’ll also chime in with T (scary, I know, T) and say while it’d be great to see JJ Hardy in a Twins uniform, I don’t see that happening.
I also wanted to comment on a post above…I found it amusing to see a poster passionately defending the Twins lack of power by saying how much he enjoys seeing the Twins put together 7-8 hits in an inning, while in the same post calling HOME RUNS the exception.
How many 7 hit innings did the Twins put together last year, slick? Yet HOME RUNS are the exception??
So it appears another AL Central foe is looking to improve.
Not sure about the improvement there… Vasquez is gone, with Floyd out there will be only one half way decent starter for the White Sox (Danks). Not that I would mind, but I just don’t see the improvement, esp. since they have a couple of middle infielders in the team already
Chief,
substitute Dustin Martin for Span and it is a done deal
Well, Thrylos, if we’re going to plan on Florida being stupid, then let’s substitute Punto for Casilla and Dickey for Humber, too…
[…] Joe Mauer underwent minor kidney surgery to relieve an obstruction. Smith stressed that Mauer’s situation, ” is not serious,” and is expected to be ready to go when Twins pitchers and catchers report for duty on Feb. 14. Mauer had the surgery on Dec. 22. […]
Wait. Why would Chicago trade proven pitching for offense?
If I recall, it wasn’t offense that caused them trouble last year.
Once again, Chicago going for power power power and further damaging their staff.
SOme of the posts about Mauer amaze me.
Do any of you actually watch baseball?
To go so far as to compare a prospect with Mauer, one of the few pure five tool guys in the game, is idiotic.
Mauer has not even reached his peak yet.
As for him moving to third, his defense there would be all star quality. Just as his defense would be at any position he played.
Mauer is a baseball player who can succeed wherever he is on the diamond.
He just happens to be the best catcher and the best hitter in the game.
Just reading some of the comments, there’s a real problem with MN and super talents. We often dont appreciate what we have and then we drive them out of town. Recent examples being Randy Moss and Kevin Garnett. Mauer is a first ballot HOF’er if he puts in another good 5-8 years. Appreciate him like the rest of the league does. We may never see someone like him again. You can tell your kids you got to see him play….
Lefty, wasn,t worth a crap, when he was with the Twins,,
[…] Twins catcher Joe Mauer had surgery Friday to remove an obstruction in his kidney, the Minneapolis Star-Tribune reported. The procedure was minor, and Mauer is expected to be fully ready for Spring Training, general […]
maybe someone in minneapolis could get ahold of the twins front office and let them know that the holidays are over and its ok to start making a deal or two to try and improve this club before spring training which is only 43 days away….
c’mon bill smith find some protection for mr morneau as i would like to see him top the 40 mark this year…..
Twins… trade prospects for one of the following players… Brian Roberts, JJ Hardy, Dan Uglla, Hanley Ramirez (if we’re really lucky)OR sign JOE CREDE to an incentive laden deal!
we would also have to give up one or two mlb players in the trade options.
chief-Span,Cassila and Humber/Mulvey for Uggula?You just got busted down to private!
[…] Joe Mauer had Kidney Surgery, but it doesn’t look like it will be serious. Thank God. […]
I can’t believe no one(in the twins org)is talking about Crede. The guy is a defensive whiz when healthy.
coreysauer’s post at 5:42 pm on Jan 2 was one of the most intelligent posts I have ever read on these blogs.
The Twins are happy with the players they have at SS and 3B, and are no longer actively looking to upgrade. No upgrade is available that would not cost the Twins too many good players, thus damaging the team overall.
The Twins are trying to trade Delmon and get a quality relief pitcher in return. No matches at this point. The Twins value Delmon too high and need to set their sights lower.
There is a terrible lack of SS depth in the organization. The Twins should try to secure a minor league SS with range and a solid glove in exchange for Delmon. They aren’t going to get the whole package in a SS prospect. Maybe a guy whose hitting needs work.
A look at 3B:
Brendan Harris
- Strengths: Intense player with a desire to excel. Generally catches what is hit at him. Strong, accurate arm. Gap power.
- Weaknesses: Poor range. Slow feet. Somewhat slow hands. Doesn’t hit RHP well. Strikes out too much.
Brian Buscher:
- Strengths: Hits RHP very well. Drives in runs.
- Weaknesses: No range. Clumsy. Unreliable arm. Hard hands. Slow runner. Can’t hit LHP.
Matt Tolbert:
- Strengsths: Hits well from both sides of plate. Excellent range. Good fielder. Speed on bases. Hard worker.
- Weaknesses: Little experience at 3B. Over-plays the ball. Somewhat erratic arm.
Summary: Harris fields better than Buscher, but not that much better. Against RHP Buscher is a much better hitter than Harris. Both are slow, plodding guys with little range or base path speed. Harris does not have enough glove advantage to overcome Buscher’s far superior hitting. Tolbert has more range and speed than the other two, but has yet to display much gap power in the majors. Tolbert can’t quite out hit Buscher against RHP, but is far superior in every other way. Harris is about equal to Tolbert in the field. More reliable but with far less range. Tolbert should outhit Harris against RHP, but the are closer against LHP, with an edge to Harris. All should see action with the one who plays the best, playing the most. Gardy is the master of mixing and matching and 3B should be strong as Gardy displays his genius.
Those wishing to see a change in philosphy from the Twins FO shouldn’t be begging for Joe CreDL (credit to thrylos for coming up with the name)
I don’t believe the Twins are happy with the players they have 3b. Harris was in the Doghouse for much of the second half of the season and Buescher’s defense causes people across America to cringe.
Wigginton, who the Front Office has like for 2 years, is the guy. This team has trouble with LHP (the play-in game is prime example). If people were OK with the contract they offered Blake, why would they not be Ok if they acquired Wigginton for similar money (he has got to be coming down as the offseason moves along) considering he is about 4 years younger?
He is an ugrade over the current options, period. And better than DeRosa or Crede.
Oh, and I agree HR’s are overvalued in baseball (unless you are part of the White Sox fan because that team rode the long ball all year last year).
But sometimes, hitting a HR when the rest of the offense is sputtering is nice.
Sorry for the three straight post thing, but going back to Wigginton…I keep hearing now as part of the excuse realm (they like him, but now all of the sudden he ain’t that good) that the only reason hit 23 HRs last year was because of the “short porch” in LF in Houston.
Ok, can somebody then provide me with the stats regarding how long each of his HRs were at home last year? Were they “bombs” or did these things just barely make it over the fence?
Maybe the removal of the “obstruction” will allow Joe to hit more than one homer a month.
Not real familiar with Wigginton. I like the 23 overvalued home runs and if he’s better than who we got and better than Crede, DeRosa, and Blake(?), I wonder what the hold up is?
the holdup is morons pulling the triggers
that the only reason hit 23 HRs last year was because of the “short porch” in LF in Houston.
Haven’t heard that. The only “knock” on Wiggy has been his defense, which statistically didn’t look much worse than what the Twins have.
Nah, the holdup is T L (formerly TNAI, before that just plain ol’) Craig doesn’t like him.
Don’t mind Craig. I doubt he believes anything he says. He’s just being contrary.
Let’s hope not, T.
After spending all last winter as just plain ol’ Craig, telling us the Twins should trade Morneau for pitching, and
then spending all summer proving TNAI Craig was neither,
now T L Craig wants the Twins to devote not one, not two, but THREE roster spots to man third base. And the kicker is, none of the three are up to the job.
Chief: I could live with Punto OR the Buscher/Harris platoon if 2B/SS or 3B was upgraded.
Sorry if I’m repeating myself, but I actually think finding a 2B/SS would be a bigger improvement, as you’d take Punto out of the everyday lineup.
Also, I checked out the list of 3B free agents for 2010 (As of today)
Third basemen
Adrian Beltre (31)
Geoff Blum (37)
Aaron Boone (37)
Pedro Feliz (35) - $5MM club option with a $500K buyout
Chone Figgins (32)
Troy Glaus (33)
Chipper Jones (38)
Mike Lamb (34)
Melvin Mora (38) - $8MM club option with a $1MM buyout
Robb Quinlan (33)
I see Glaus on there (who’s been brought up a few times) He’d be 33, and I recall some injury problems.
But I think if ANYBODY (not just the Twins) wants an outside shot at Beltre they’re best off trying to deal him now. Because he’ll probably wind up someplace like Boston or LAA if he hits the market next offseason.
That’s if Boras lets the recieving team actually attempt to extend his contract beyond 2010.
I think that for 2010 the 3B situation might be a little different. Too many parameters, like Valencia moving to AAA and having a breakthrough season or Plouffe getting it all together (BTW, if you like Hardy check his numbers vs. Plouffe’s in the minors -and the first 2 years of Hardy’s MLB stats).
Next season is what’s important. I could potentially live with Harris there. I can’t live with Butcher. Maybe a Harris/Tolleson situation will get it done, but there are better options out there like signing Wigginton. If indeed they offered Blake that much money, they should repeat the offer to Wigginton.
thry: The report is that apparently Wigginton wants “more” than Blake did. We don’t know how much yet. It could be a lot, it could be not much.
But if the Twins think he wants more I imagine it’s because that’s what they were told by his agent.
I think the Twins (much like several teams not named “New York ____”) are hoping to ride out the market a bit longer and force player salaries down.
T,
if you do the math, there are about as many decent free agent third basemen left as there are teams looking for them after the DeRosa acquisition by the Indians. Plus there are a few potentially available in trades. Something got to give. I am pretty sure that Wigginton will end up singing for less that what Blake got…
Completely agree. By my calculations, the Indians are now covered. The Giants seem interested in Crede, Manny, and God knows who else. The Reds seem to have no interest in Wiggy (or so it seems). Wiggy claims he has no interest in returning to the Pirates.
So, I’m not sure who that leaves. I’m sure there are teams out there with large payrolls who covet his versatility. Maybe he will target a place he knows he can play everyday.
My hunch? Nobody signs him (even though the Twins should) and he goes back to Houston or someting.
In addition to somebody clarifying how long Wigginton’s homers were in the “short porch” of Houston, came somebody tell me why the Twins Front Office were high on him for 2-3 years, but now his defense has evolved into something that makes him undesirable.
I know that’s a hard one.
but now his defense has evolved into something that makes him undesirable.
When did the Twins say that? Last I heard it was because they think Wigginton wants more than he’s worth (and judging by how nobody’s signed him yet that’s probably the case)
From mlbtraderumors:
10:11pm: Ray Ratto of the San Francisco Chronicle writes that the Giants want to wait until the corner outfield market is “more precisely defined” before pursuing Manny.
The corner outfield market won’t define itself until Manny finds a home. Because everybody’s waiting to see what he gets.
its not wiggys defense that bothers the twins …its the size of his wallet–wish the front office would just be honest and admit that they are cheap, cheap, and cheap—maybe they need to overpay sometimes as the market demands, but so what….win the world series and you wont give a damn about overpaying once in awhile-we all know it doesnt happen often that the twins overpay anyone….
From LaVelle’s blog on 12-18-08
“As for free agent infielder Ty Wigginton, Antony described his defense as, “adequate,” ”
I am sure Rob Antony would also describe Buscher’s defense as “adequate”.
That directly translates into the language of reality as “inadequate”.
Maybe Wiggs ends up here because the market for him is weak and then the FO looks like they have a clue.
sane-language of reality you say.IMO,that’s pretty much foreign to this board!
maybe they need to overpay sometimes as the market demands,
What demand? Has anybody read reports of anybody (Except for the Twins and Tribe) talking to Wigginton?
This is what’s wrong with baseball. The player is setting their value when in reality it SHOULD be the teams that are offering contracts.
Just because a player values himself at some massive multimillion dollar contract doesn’t mean the actual market wants to give him that.
“The player is setting their value when in reality it SHOULD be the teams that are offering contracts.”
Players hold a gun to some team’s head and FORCE that team to offer what the player wants?
I live in Massachusetts and I’m a big Mauer(Twins)fan, with the Red Sox in limbo with Jason Varitek, some of you Twins fan don’t know what you have in Mauer, 2 time batting champ,lifetime .317avg-.399obp,1 gold glove, 25 years old,there is still plenty of time for him to improve in the power dept.Sad to say,when(if)he leaves you will only realize it.And a power bat like Adam Dunn would be nice, his lifetime .247avg could hide easly in that line up.
As for the Twins story on Wiggy’s defense, T, I don’t know if this came from the Twins or from Joe C, but in his latest blog, Joe C says defense is “a big reason the Twins haven’t made more of a push” for Wiggy. I would assume Joe C is making that comment based on what he’s heard from Twins management.
Funny, it wasn’t an issue when he was a trade target.
Players hold a gun to some team’s head and FORCE that team to offer what the player wants?
I use Hunter last year as an example.
Three or four teams offered him nearly identical contracts. Then suddenly the Angels popped in with a WAY overblown contract and signed him away.
If a team has to “overpay” to get a player, then that is NOT what the market has determined his value to be.
Chief:
“Though Wigginton does a nice job minimizing errors, scouts are not high on his range or his arm. A point worth noting: Cleveland needs a third baseman, and they’re not pursuing him any harder than the Twins.”
JoeC’s just reporting what scouts are saying. I’ve said it time and time again that JoeC’s doing what he can to take the news revolving around the Twins and try to make sense of it.
So the Twins and Cleveland aren’t pushing hard for Wiggy? JoeC goes out and finds info that says maybe it has to do with defense.
Chief,
The Wiggy defensive (lack of) skills comment came from Rob Antony on some Sunday talk-radio interview with LaVelle.
See blog “Afternoon notes-12-18-08″
“In case you weren’t able to tune in, Twins assistant GM Rob Antony joined me on KFAN yesterday and mentioned a couple interesting things….As for free agent infielder Ty Wigginton, Antony described his defense as, “adequate,”
Later, several posters, who heard that interview, picked up on the negative tone of that comment.
Well…All I know is that Wiggy’s defense can’t be any worse than Buescher’s, since Brian has yet to learn how to properly throw a baseball and his range is average at best.
Sign Wiggy, and then in later innings throughout the season, throw Harris in there for defensive purposes. There, done.
No team “has” to overpay, T.
The Angels chose to offer Hunter that contract, not the other way around.
As for Wiggy, I would agree with anyone who says he’s no great shakes defensively at third.
But why that didn’t bother the Twins before, or why it suddenly bothers them now when they’re planning on Buscher being at third for 100 or more games, is another question.
Sounds to me like defense isn’t the real reason for not pursuing Wiggy.
I believe the Twins liked Wiggy, Blake and DeRosa for the right price.
When (in the Twins’ minds) they were asking Cadillac prices for a Chevrolet, so the Twins decided to wait for a sale to buy a car.
In the meantime, they had to bad-mouth the Chevy’s so their wives wouldn’t bitch when they came home without a new car.
You want an analogy?
You got your analogy.
According to mlbtraderumors the Twins are one of 3 teams in the mix for Kawakami.
It would be great to see Kawakami in for a 3 year deal.
Bring him in Twins!
Go get Fernandez and or Crede!!
Kawakami Down To Orioles, Cardinals, Twins
By Steve Adams [January 4 at 4:15pm CST]
According to Wayne Craczyk of the Japan Times, Kenshin Kawakami has narrowed his options to three teams: the Orioles, Cardinals, and Twins.
Kawakami probably makes the most sense for the Cardinals out of those three. Baltimore isn’t near contention and the Twins already have a nice starting rotation. However, signing Kawakami could allow them to feel more comfortable about trading a young starter.
Heres a pretty good video of Kawakami. That fastball is VERY straight. But I love the big hook. Cutter looks good and so does the forkball. Wouldn’t mind seeing him as the 5 starter over Perkins. Than they could trade him or move him to the pen where his stuff is MUCH better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UU1wMH6lXHQ
[…] Twins catcher Joe Mauer had surgery Friday to remove an obstruction in his kidney, the Minneapolis Star-Tribune reported. The procedure was minor, and Mauer is expected to be fully ready for Spring Training, general […]
Sleepy Bill Smith is not going to pull the trigger on ANY major trade. He was taken advantage of by the Mets and the Rays and then added 5 lead footed stiffs who were has-beens and never weres. He is terrified to make any trade.
The best trade the Twins could make at this point is to trade Smith for a real GM.
If Smith wanted to pull his head out of his arse and actually do something to earn his paycheck, he might talk to Seattle which wants a package of players for Ichiro Suzuki. Offer Young, Perkins or Blackburne, Bonser and a Class A pitcher. They just might bite. It’s worth a shot.
Why would we want Ichiro. Thats just dumb. We have a ton of OF. He is overpaid. He is LEFT handed. He has limited power. While we would need to give up Young. Who is right handed, has power, is under club control for a while. If thats the move you think the front office needs to make I don’t know what to say.
Why do you want Suzuki???? The Twins have speedy defensive outfielders on the cheap who are not premadonna’s. Suzuki has to have any perk he wants and alienates his team mates.
Trade for Ichiro?
Bob, you have just been named a starter on the All-Stupid Team.
I don’t believe the Twins are actually interested in Kawakami. I’d like to hear what La Velle thinks about their alleged interest.
Seems like if the Twins wanted to trade a young starter they already have the depth to do that without bringing in an expensive import.
Kawakami?
Like I read on another board…the Twins are the best team in the league at “being interested in” players.
after seeing the video of kawakami i would sign him regardless of who we have already…this guy throws the ball-not knowing much about him, but that video is very impressive…what a bender…id find a spot for him on this roster, no doubt…never know, that may be ace material….will be fun to watch and see how this kid does no matter where he lands…good luck twins, i hope you land him…
As for the nonsense posts earlier on this thread–Joe Mauer is our best player. He should bat second, but third also works fine. And we should lock him up for as long as we can, the sooner the better. Hope he has no complications and recovers from this surgery fine.
He’ll pop at least 12, possibly 15 HR this year–and won’t go the opening two months without a HR. 2-4 HR per month from him sounds about right.
AM we are talking about Kawakami.
Get with the posts!
Yes lock up Mauer!!
I think they will and should wait to talk to him after next season. If he gets hurt his value would drop and his value can’t get a whole lot higher than it is now. But they do NEED to keep him. There is no way they could come close to replacing his production behind the plate on top of that letting him go to Boston would be a less than great way to get fans in the seats.
From MLB.com:
Report: Kawakami narrows down choices
Japanese pitcher Kenshin Kawakami has reportedly narrowed down his desired destination for 2009 to three teams — the Cardinals, Orioles and Twins — according to The Japan Times.
That’s VERY odd to hear. Somebody actually narrows down their choices which includes the Twins? What?
“Japanese pitcher Kenshin Kawakami has reportedly narrowed down his desired destination for 2009 to three teams — the Cardinals, Orioles and Twins”
The guy likes birds. (including chickens)
HR, singles whatever, bottom line RBI’s are the key, its not how you drive in runs its how many you drive in. HR is the slam dunk of baseball they show up on sportcenter, but they don’t guarantee victory. 85 rbi in roughly 125 games is pretty damn good, more then most of his teamates did in 140, 150+ games.
From MLB.com:
Might we ACTUALLY do something? I’m kinda excited. Don’t get my hopes up just to have them crushed. Not again. Not so soon.
In the meantime, they had to bad-mouth the Chevy’s so their wives wouldn’t bitch when they came home without a new car.
Makes sense. Twins need to play down how much they want/need a bat like Wiggy….otherwise they give him all the leverage.
Can anyone update me if the Twins did anything of any signifigance over the weekend please? I was busy with Football and the Wolves over the weekend?
Significance?? Yeah, they fell for the “sorry, my agent is out of the country” bit for a somebody they are interested in.
jkucenic to bad. With a long winter in just the begining faze and Football over. I sure hope to have plenty of exciting Twins news. Watching the Wolves play with no new baseball news only may be sad to go through. I just love it when the Wolves howling noise comes out during games when everyone looks around like there is a dog dying.
Nothing over the weekend. Talk about the Twins interst in Michael Young from the Rangers, but that would be foolish, as he is dropping off and his contract is at $16 million. Nothing stirring. Sure would like to see someone other than long-shot pitchers signed.
On the Michael Young front, it sounds like he’s got a NTC. So he’d have to want to come here.
And if we’re going to try and get guys who have us on NTC’s, I’d say Beltre would be the one to go for. And since he only added it recently, I think he’d be open for an extension if the Twins picked him up.
I’m just curious how much he’d have to get in order to sign away his chance at Free Agency in 2009.
This is an older piece of info, but I saw it on the MLBTradeRumors site when JoeC reported that Twins interest in Wiggy faded.
I had Wigginton pegged for two years and $12MM or so, but he is four years younger than Blake and outhit him in 2008 (though he had 172 fewer plate appearances and was largely aided by Minute Maid Park). If Wiggy can really get a better contract than Blake, it would’ve made sense for the Astros to tender him a contract and then trade him.
I’ve said a couple of times that if Wiggy was willing to “settle” for Blake Money he’d have been signed by now (if not by the Twins…then the Tribe would’ve signed him rather than deal for DeRosa (why trade for a 2B to put at 3B when you could just sign a 3B)
This makes me think he (or his agent) has grossly overestimated his market value. Now that Cleveland’s out of the running for 3B help the Twins are likely back on the phone trying to get ahold of his agent.
If he’s back in the country…
Salary arbitration filing starts today.
Exciting stuff………
For people think it’ll be easy to get Hanley Rameriez:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3807428&name=gammons_peter
Ten days after the GM meetings, Epstein called Marlins GM Larry Beinfest and asked him if he were interested in trading Hanley Ramirez for a package including Ellsbury and Clay Buchholz. “No,” replied Beinfest. End of discussion. “The entire conversation,” says one club official, “lasted all of 20 seconds, a week before Thanksgiving.”
For those of you who think it’s easy for a GM to just “Make it happen”.
I wonder why Boras had Beltre add the Twins to the no trade list. I thought i read somewhere that the Twins would have to give him more money to be removed from the list but wanting to stay in Seattle over Minnesota for one year makes no sense to me.
“a package including Ellsbury and Clay Buchholz.”
Does that mean that Buchholtz has become “touchable”?
The NTC, has to be in place, with the names of the teams, all ready writen down, prior, to singing of the contract, you just cant add teams, at will,
popbelly,
You can add teams to your NTC, if the terms of your contract stipulate that you can.
At will?
No.
Givem DY for Ellsbury
Exactly Sane i’m pretty sure the Twins were added after Boras found out the Twins were interested. The thing i dont get is why he would want any team on his no trade list since it’s his last year does he honestly think the M’s have a snowballs chance in hell of competing next year?
shane,, copy,
BC I think when the Twins get involved in Trade rumors it isn’t looked at well by agents because they are notorious for being cheap and low balling players when contracts are up.
“does he honestly think the M’s have a snowballs chance in hell of competing next year?”
Agents don’t count rings they count money. All they care about is money and how much there cut will be.
BC,
The Twins are on his Beltre’s NTC because he wants the final say as to where he will play, IF he is traded this year.
The other side of being on a no trade list is that perhaps the Twins would then have an opportunity to negotiate a contract with the player before the trade was finalized. That might actually be a good thing. If Beltre is going to come to Minnesota he would want to do so for more than one year, I would think. Plus, with Boras as his agent, the mindset is always ‘get the money now’.
I think the platoon is what the Twins/Not the fans want and so that is what the Twins will do
Jimmybee those are both interesting points but it’s still up to the team if they want to make the trade with the Twins.
Sane i understand that part of it but why would he not want to play in Minnesota for one year when with him added they would have a better chance then the M’s?
I don’t think Ichiro would be a bad move. With his on-base potential and ability to hit over .300 and great defense, it would shore up the outfield. I realize he is not a right handed slugger and I hadn’t heard that he was a problem in the clubhouse, but who else are the Twins going to legitimately go after who has a right handed bat and displays power? It is obvious that the Twins are not going after Dunn or Burrell or Milton Bradley, so please tell me which right handed power bat we are going after?
I would love to see the Twins make a run at Orlano Cabrerra at short and put Punto back as a utility player or take a chance on Joe Crede, bad back and all or possibily look in to a Garrett Anderson in the outfield, but Smith shows no inclination to look at any of these 3. We sit and twiddle our thumbs while everyone else in the division gets better. Even the Royals are busy, adding Twins killer Ibanez and shore up their pitching staff.
You can mock the possibility of bringing Ichiro to the Twins but do you really want to start the year with Delmon Young in left, Carlos Gomez in center and Denard Span in right with Cuddyer your only rh DH? Cuddyer’s best year’s are behind him and his inability to hit in the clutch and diminshing power numbers are scary. He can’t play 3b either, that is a pipe dream. Gomez is going to hit .255 and Young is a liability in the field and will hit .270 with little power.
BC,
Maybe he wants to leverage his way to the Red Sox or the Angels.
Thank god the Vikings season is over, wish the NFL was too. Now we get to sit back and listen to all the off field problems, arrests, etc. the Purple will have all off-season. Great bunch of guys… I wish the Vikes would move out of town and the NFL would implode. Lowest group of people on the food chain…
Just want to hibernate now and let winter pass until pitchers and catchers report. Wake me when the grass is green…maybe we’ll pick up a RH bat in the interim…?
Does that mean that Buchholtz has become “touchable”?
He and Ellsbury both apparently.
Exactly Sane i’m pretty sure the Twins were added after Boras found out the Twins were interested.
That’s exactly what happened. I think it was JoeC who first reported that. In between midseason negotations and when the Twins approached Seattle after the 2008 season, Beltre added the Twins.
This bascially puts the Twins in the reverse situation that teams like New York and Boston were in with Santana.
The Twins want Beltre, but they would prefer to have him for more than a year. So any trade they make would have to allow the Twins to “back out” if they were unable to agree to an extension.
Even the Royals are busy, adding Twins killer Ibanez and shore up their pitching staff.
I think you’ve got your Ibanez’s crossed. Raul Ibanez went to the Phillies. About as far as he can get form the Twins.
Thanks T that makes sense to me. So if that’s the case what’s the first obstacle to overcome for the Twins what player or players the M’s want or how much money Boras wants?
BC: If the Twins are looking for more than a year of Beltre, than the goal should be making the smart deal to at least get Beltre to sit down at the negoiating table. You hope the FO is smart enough to not allow any trade to go through without a guarantee that it can be “undone” if Beltre is not extended.
If the Twins aren’t interested in extending Beltre’s contract, then I don’t think they should be in negotations for him. I’d rather they focus their resources on improvements that will be around for longer than a year.
Once they’ve got Beltre at the table, the next question is how much does he get…and for how long.
I’d like to trade DY too and I like Ellsbury, but then we would have 3 centerfielders (Gomer, Span and Ellsbury). None much for power.
Instead, we need a power hitting, righthanded corner outfielder - especially if we don’t pick up a power hitting third baseman…
Who else fits that bill you would realistically trade DY for?
Who else fits that bill you would realistically trade DY for?
Who fits that bill that somebody would be willing to take Young for?
E7 Span in lleft Gomez in CF and trade DY for Ellsbury. Then package up Kubel and Cuddy and try to trade that for a 3rd basemen or MR’s and maybe pick up Dunn who is a FA for our DH.
“Instead, we need a power hitting, righthanded corner outfielder..
Who else fits that bill you would realistically trade DY for?
Sounds (potentially) like DY at age 25.
Looks like Burrell is off the table (not that he was on the Twins table):
The Rays are close to signing Pat Burrell to a two-year, $16 million contract, according to FOXSports.com’s Ken Rosenthal.
Quite a bargain for the Rays, who were smart to wait in their search for a DH. Burrell’s right-handed bat is pretty much the perfect fit for their lineup. He doesn’t have the same upside as Milton Bradley, but at least he can be counted on to stay healthy.
Gotta give the Rays credit. Two seemingly good pickup in Nelson in Burrell. Their bullpen should be good again and he is a big bat they were looking for. Good for them.
T how bout Ellsbury for DY
Trade Delmon for Ellsbury? Denard Span c. 2008 is pretty much what the Twins would’ve been looking for in Ellsbury (OF with some speed that can hit leadoff and cuase choas on the bases)
Span c. 2008 is what the Twins were hoping Gomez would have been.
Bullpen help and big bat?? Those two needs sound familiar.
Ahhhhhh. Who cares. Brian Buescher is going to be NASTY this year.
T Span, Gomez and Ellsbury would be a lethal combination of Speed in the OF and tons of SB’s
We can’t compete with big market teams like the Rays.
Wait a minute!
Never mind.
Great stuff there Sid. Those Indians and Rays are just in a different league in terms of “markets.”
Might as well stick with terms I see like “adequate” when describing players.
We can’t compete with big market teams like the Royals.
wait a minute!
never mind
Great stuff jimmy bee. If that Burrell signing does happen, just add that to a string of events that have exposed Billy Boy and Co.
Who needs proven guys like Burrell. We got “adequate” people!
“jkucenic Who needs proven guys like Burrell. We got “adequate” people!”
Who needs superstars we have warm bodies
jkucenic Even with the Burrell signing the rays probably have a lower payroll then the Twins and if they cant sell tickets next year the Longorias and Uptons will be moving to the bigger markets soon as well.
Well…for me, it’s just refreshing to see a fellow “small market” team stick by their claims that they wanted to find an additional back inning relief option, and a big bat to help stabilize the middle of their lineup.
They then promptly went out and signed two of the best options out there and added to an already promising team.
I mean, I’m just refreshed with jealousy.
Which was more of a blunder?
A. Trading Santana for Gomez
B. Letting Torii Hunter go for a single draft pick.
C. Trading Garza for DY
In order I say
B,A,C
I don’t think the Rays will be trading Longoria-he has a pretty affordable contract:
“In 2008, the Rays signed Longoria to a six-year, $17.5 million contract with options for 2014, 2015 and 2016. The first six years of the contract cover his arbitration years, with three more years added by team options. If the team exercises its one-year option for 2014, and then its two-year option for the 2015 and 2016 seasons, the deal could be worth up to $44 million.”
I agree with that and I hope the Rays win the Al east again and the Red Sox and Yankees just beat each other up so much that neither of them gets a WC birth.
Well…You can maybe look at this signing as a good thing, in that if the Twins really were interested in signing a guy like Wiggy, then they should be able to get him at a reasonable cost…I mean, wasn’t Burrell supposed to get a a couple more mill than this, at least.
I could be wrong on that.
T Span, Gomez and Ellsbury would be a lethal combination of Speed in the OF and tons of SB’s
And that would improve the Twins power-starved offense how?
Ellsbury would’ve been a good addition last year when the Twins didn’t have Gomez OR Span. Now that they’ve got both, they need a power guy in the OF. Young is that more than Ellsbury.
B. Letting Torii Hunter go for a single draft pick.
The blunder was not dealing Hunter in the middle of 2007 when it was clear the Twins wouldn’t be going anywhere in the Central.
And it’s a blunder that would’ve been repeated had the Twins not dealt Santana and watched him walk at the end of 08.
Goes to show what happens when you try to appease the fans. They get pissed anyway.
I agree though that this signing shows that the market isn’t going to force prices as high as people originally thought. Phillies may be kicking themselves for jumping at Ibanez so quickly.
Correction!
A. Trading (one year of)Santana for Gomez (and three pitching prospects).
Still not good, but if you have to exaggerate, try to get close.
Also, Hunter got us TWO draft choices - Carlos Gutierrez and Shooter Hunt.
And maybe, just maybe the “patience” of Billy Boy will pay off if they can land Wiggy at a reduced cost (i.e. cheaper than Blake).
Or, he could really be serious that they are fine with Buescher/Harris. My God.
sid:
C. Trading Garza for DY
Might as well put that down as
Trade Garza/Bartlett for Young/Harris/Pridie.
I was going to include “Morlan”, but the Twins got him back this year in the Rule 5 (I think it was Rule 5)
Make that:
Trading (one year of) Santana (in a year in which the Twins missed the playoffs by 1 game) PLUS two draft picks for Gomez (and three prospects).
I said it last year, I’ll say it again. Given the return, the Twins would’ve been better off keeping Santana for one more year.
The Mets also missed the playoffs by one game. Which is funny since they also had Santana.
I think you’re mistaken about the Twins getting Morlan back, T.
They COULD’VE claimed him in the rule 5, but passed for the Yankee stiff.
Ah. My bad.
Regardless, the Rays apparently didn’t think much of the guy…since they didn’t keep him either.
T,
Someone else took Morlan in Rule V.
Chief,
Back last January, the Twins should have known that they would only need one more win to the playoffs.
Isn’t Miss Cleo the Assistant GM?
If we traded Morneau or Mauer tommorow what does anyone think BS would ask for.
Back last January, the Twins should have known that they would only need one more win to the playoffs.
I remember when the Twins FO said they’d still fight to keep “competitive” and everybody called them liars because they’d never compete if both Hunter and Santana were allowed to go.
If we traded Morneau or Mauer tommorow what does anyone think BS would ask for.
An MLB ready first baseman and a MLB ready catcher.
“If we traded Morneau or Mauer tommorow what does anyone think BS would ask for.”
The Witness Protection Program.
4 draft picks would be what I think BS would get. He would probably just let them walk
T we could use Red Dog at catcher and move Punto to first. Next BS could recieve 4 draft picks.
BS knows what he’s doing. He got a PHD from the Kevin McHAle school of Draft Night Blunders
jb: Despite what some may think, it is usually better to deal for MLB ready talent than to let a player walk and pray that someday the guys you draft make it up to the big leagues.
I have a question if Teixeira is worth 22.5 million a year how much will Albert Pujols get when he becomes a free agent in 2011 will he be the first 30 million dollar player?
“Back last January, the Twins should have known that they would only need one more win to the playoffs.”
No, they should’ve been a better judge of the team they had, and the value of one more year of pitching by a Cy Young caliber starter, plus the two draft picks they would’ve gotten had they not been able to sign Santana.
BC I think Pujols is worth whatever the Yankees and Red Sox are willing to throw at him. While in the mean time destroying baseball
“they should’ve been a better judge of the team they had”
Yeah, EVERYBODY knew that Span, Casilla, Buscher, Blackburn, Slowey, Perkins and Baker would have big years.
In a pigs ear!
The Twins themselves, Sid, said they expected to contend in 2008.
Are you saying they lied to us?
“Yeah, EVERYBODY knew that Span, Casilla, Buscher, Blackburn, Slowey, Perkins and Baker would have big years”
I knew it sid. 100 % I knew. Hold on one second is that a pig flying over my head. Hold on wait a minute. If I am lying may lightning strike me now. ZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzap!!!!
Cheif: If I recall, the phrase was “competitive”.
And I dunno about you, but getting into a one-game playoff seems pretty competitive to me.
Also: I’m going to go ahead and guess that those who were calling Pohald and Co “cheapasses” and “thrifters” for trading Santana in 2008 wouldn’t have been any happier had the Twins gone somewhere in the postseason and then failed to resign Santana.
Here’s what we would’ve heard: *ahem*
“Why would those cheapasses let Santana walk for PICKS when they could’ve dealt him last year for *insert trade package here*? How will we ever compete in 2009?”
Not to mention that the one-game playoff they lost (that one game that they needed to win to make the playoffs) was lost 1-0.
Not really much that Santana could’ve done ther.e
“Why would those cheapasses let Santana walk for PICKS when they could’ve dealt him last year for *Carlos Gomez and 3 pitchers of Boof Bonzer like quality* How will we ever compete in 2009?”
T did I do ok?
I’m not arguing about the Twin NOT being ‘competitive’ in 2008, T. I’m one of the few who thought going into last season they had a decent shot.
I’m arguing they would’ve been a better off keeping Santana and being even MORE ‘competitive.’
And since when do the Twins give a rat’s behind about whether some call them “cheapasses” or not?
Or are you arguing Bill Smith should operate according to the opinion of a 51% majority on the STrib boards?
Five years from now…who will be the superior player?:
A) Delmon Young
B) Carlos Gomez
C) Denard Span
FWIW, my prediction is C, A, B.
I agree with USAChief for me it wasn’t resigning Santana for what he wanted. I’m still a Twins fan and always will be but when they traded him my enthusiam fell quite a bit. Signing Santana would have shown all the Twins fans that the Twins were commited to winning.
E7
B,A,C
I agree with “C” being last. I predict Gomez will not be in MLB in 5 years (maybe on a minor league contract trying to make a comeback to some big league club).
“The Twins themselves, Sid, said they expected to contend in 2008.”
Its called advertising, in order to sell tickets.
If they weren’t lying, they were hoping without evidence.
The T-Wolves said they would be competitive also, but nobody expects anyone to believe it.
All teams say it.
Does anyone say “We’re going to be lousy, but season tickets are now on sale!”
Sorry, I meant “B” (Gomez) being last…
“Signing Santana would have shown all the Twins fans that the Twins were commited to winning.”
Instead, they traded Santana, and then proceeded to win. But winning obviously doesn’t show a commitment to winning.
I think Gomez has the highest upside of the 3…. but could also be out of the league in 5 years
so if the Twins commited to win and didn’t win… would that be like me being engaged and weasoling out of it?
What was it the Twins won again last season, Pete?
I forgot.
They are still young and any of the 3 could be an All-Star or a has-been in 5 years. This will be interesting to see how it pans out over time…
All teams say it.
Does anyone say “We’re going to be lousy, but season tickets are now on sale!”
Royal’s FO may say this. On a side note do people actually buy Royal’s season tickets.
Chief: The point I’m making is most of those people arguing that Smith was stupid for dealing Santana are the same people who would’ve complained anyway had Smith let Santana walk after what they think (only after using the power of hindsight) would’ve been a “better season” in 2008.
Five years from now…who will be the superior player?
It depends on what you are looking for. Span could evolve into a top notch leadoff hitter, while the hope is that Young becomes a middle of the order power threat.
It’s kinda like the age-old “Mauer vs. Morneau” debate.
“Instead, they traded Santana, and then proceeded to win. But winning obviously doesn’t show a commitment to winning.”
Shawn i must be missing something what did they win after they traded him?
In 5 years, Mauer will be a part-time player due to injuries and Morneau will have left for a bigger contract elsewhere…and Nathan retired.
So, whatever we do with Delmon, Gomez and Span (i.e. keep, trade) needs to be smart to give us the nucleus to win over the next 2-3 years before the core splits up.
I would take Morneau over Mauer
What was it the Twins won again last season, Pete?
One fewer game than the Mets and Yankees. Both of which spent far more money…and one of which actually HAD the player that would’ve supposedly turned the Twins season around.
In 2007, the Twins finished 3rd, 17 games out WITH Santana, Hunter, Silva, Garza and Bartlett
Of course WITHOUT them, we would tie for first in 2008.
How could the FO not see THAT coming?
jimmy, i didn’t say that
i do wish they’d have kept Santana, but it wasn’t meant to be
T if the Twins had signed Santana they wouldn’t have needed Livan.
E7-
I need another year from Span- wait, Gomez, too- and also Young- to even try to answer that question. I have no idea how well any of them will improve, listen to the coaches, and succeed. I’m hoping it becomes a “Who’s better? Mauer or Morneau?” type question. As in, who cares- they’re both stellar!
At the time, the FO did mumble about being competitive. I don’t think anyone, including themselves, believed it.
The fact that Burrell is signing elsewhere is not that surprising. Twins value batting average more than OBP, so I don’t think Dunn or Burrell will sign.
I do like the fact that Kawakami was mentioned by both LEN and Joe C, and now Kawakami is down to the Cards, Twins, Orioles, or Braves. Joe C posted an entry a while ago saying he didn’t know how to manage expectations about the Japanese pitchers. Re-reading that, I get the send that he was VERY excited about the prospect of the Twins signing one of them.
Livan: $4 million
Kawakami (best pitcher other than Yu Darvish in Japan) $8 million?
Winning games is not important.
Winning the WS is the only success possible.
There is the Phillies and there are twenty-nine LOSERS!!!
Ridiculous!
At the time, the FO did mumble about being competitive. I don’t think anyone, including themselves, believed it.
It all comes down to what you consider “competitive”. For me, it was the hope that the Twins would put up enough of a fight that they’d stay above .500 and finish in the middle of the pack in the Central (hopefully closer to second than to last.
I think what happened is people starting thinking that the only way to “compete” was to make it to the playoffs (and into the World Series). Failing to realize that there’s a stark difference between a “competitive” team and a “contending” team.
Span may turn out to be the best of the 3 overall, but interestingly enough the other two probably have a higher trade value right now. That’s why I’d keep Span and see if we can fill the power RH bat hole, or third base hole, or reliever hole - with Delmon or Go-Go.
Young for Beltre, plus sign him for 3-4 years could work and put us in the same salary range as 2007…and have a righthanded power bat to compliment our current core.
If not, I would entertain trading Gomez for Huston Street… not that they would necessarily be interested.
Failing to realize that there’s a stark difference between a “competitive” team and a “contending” team.
100% correct. I think I would rather be a contender
“The point I’m making is most of those people arguing that Smith was stupid for dealing Santana are the same people who would’ve complained anyway had Smith let Santana walk after what they think (only after using the power of hindsight) would’ve been a “better season” in 2008.”
Got any evidence for that?
“Everybody said this,” or “everybody will say that” is popular around here, but not a very accurate or effective debate technique.
And I’ll ask again, even if you’re correct, how is that relevant? Are you interested in what’s right for the Twins, or what makes the most blog posters happy?
As expected: the Burell signing appears to have brought prices down around the league…
Nick Punto is competitive.
The Royals are competitive.
The vikings were competitive.
Got any evidence for that?
Just as much evidence as you do that the Twins make the playoffs with Santana. And that the Twins win the World Series with Santana.
Are you interested in what’s right for the Twins
Considering that I don’t have access to the same crystal ball that often gets pulled out around here…dealing Santana was in the best interests of the Twins.
Because if the Twins don’t win the World Series, and Santana walks…then there was no benefit to keeping him.
And even with hindsight bias, it’s not 100% certain that Santana helps the Twins bullpen issues or inability to protect Morneau in the order.
The only way the FO should’ve risked keeping Santana and taking a run was if they were certain they had a shot at the World Series.
They didn’t think so. I didn’t think so. The press didn’t think so. Nobody thought so.
The Royals are competitive.
No. They are not. A perennial doormat is not a competitive team.
smith isn’t doing anything because he has a trade in place with dy going to padres for kouzmanoff with a couple other players involved but they can’t complete it until kouz can pass his physical after his surgery heals. probably about mid feb.
on fangraphs, they have a section at the bottom of each player page that is called “Value”, figuring out the 2008 wins above replacement for each player, by adding the hitting value, fielding value, positional adjustments, and then subtracting the total salary. Who can name the top 5 Twins, in order (position players only)?
I should add that a guy like Bradley getting “only” 10 mil a year should set the tone for what a guy like Wiggy should expect.
Because I think Bradley would be a better addition to any lineup than Bradley.
gobble,
The Padres are being sold as we speak, so I would expect not too many trades for them until a new FO is established.
Who can name the top 5 Twins, in order (position players only)?
I’m going to wager that Morneau and Mauer are not in the Top 5 (since that would make it less than newsworthy)
My guess would be Span, Young, Kubel, Casilla, and MAYBE Redmond.
Sure the Royals are competitive-I mean the Twins couldn’t even win the series against them in Sept.
I don’t normally like the cliche…but the Twins REALLY did it to themselves in that series.
Morneau especially. Just one friggin’ hit in any of his ABs Saturday and that game is won…
My guess would be: Mauer, Morneau, Span,
Delmon and Gomez
T,
‘Because I think Bradley would be a better addition to any lineup than Bradley.”
Say what?
sid: Bradley > Wiggy.
Sorry, brain cramps.
“What was it the Twins won again last season, Pete?
I forgot.”
Already? It was only a little over 3 months ago.
The Twins won 88 out of 163 games. They won a one game shot at the ALDS. They won more games than 2/3 of MLB teams.
But since they didn’t win the Championship, they obviously didn’t win anything. I’m STUNNED that only 1 team in baseball showed any commitment to winning.
I think Bradley = Delmon Young.
Mauer, Morneau, Span, Gomez, Punto.
For example, Morneau put up $13.8million in performance (second best on the team), and was paid $8.4 million for it. Therefore, he provided $5.4million in surplus value for the Twins, which is good for fifth best “surplus” value.
With so many pre-arb or arb eligible players, the Twins have a lot of players who produce more than they are paid.
Pete D,
The Phillies weren’t committed to winning.
It was a case of winning first and committing later.
Six teams won a division. Two more “won” a WC entry into the postseason.
They had a nice season.
But they won nothing.
BC of ND Wally the Beer Man is competetive
LNP sliding shows signs of being competetive.
Carl Pohlad throwing huge contracts to all of his players shows a sign of being competetive
But they won nothing.
And thus each manager and GM of those teams should be fired. They lied, cheated, and swindled their fans…when ultimately they had zero commitment to winning.
USAChief has the total value right:
Mauer: $25.7mill
Morneau: $13.8
Span: $10.7
Gomez: $10.1
Punto: $9.7
For surplus value, the list is a little different, since Morneau has the biggest salary:
Mauer: $19.4 surplus
Span: $10.3 surplus
Gomez: $9.7 surplus
Punto: $7.3 surplus
Morneau: $5.4 surplus
If Span played CF, his value would be considerably higher.
Pete D I guess it all comes down to what each person expects as a fan. I was not disapointed with how well the Twins did last year at all and i’m not saying one more year of Santana would have quaranteed a title. I do think signing Santana to a long term contract would have showed a commitment to winning instead of a commitment to being competitive.
The Twins didn’t win nothing.
They won more games.
That’s why 2008 was better than 2007.
Ask all the fans who stopped showing up in September, 2007, because finishing out of the race was lousy.
The only way to prove you are committed to winning is to aquire any player you are remotely intersted in (since failing to aquire them simply proves it was all lies) and then to be the one and only team to actually win the World Series.
What…are we Yankees fans now?
BC: The problem these days is that “committment” doesn’t mean anything to some people.
The only way to prove committment is to always follow through on trade rumors (or just never release any rumors), and then win the World Series.
Because otherwise it’s just a group of 25 losers.
RIP Carl Pohlad
Here are some 2008 values for some of the 3B names bandied about:
Wigginton: $13.2million (huge red flag: never before above $5million in value in a season)
Hardy ($25million and $18.5mill in 2007, but both at SS, which is worth more; those numbers would go down some if he had played 3B)
Atkins: $3.6million (but $22million in 2006)
Beltre: $18.3million (and $31 million in 2004)
The Twins:
Harris: $4.5million (Yes, he outproduced Atkins)
Buscher: $1.5million
Seeing Burrell go to the Rays is very frustrating, having posted here a lot about how’d he’s exactly what we need in the middle of the lineup.
Then to realize the Twins handed out $4 for Punto when they could’ve given that toward signing Burrell and then sent Cuddyer or Kubel to the Cubs for Derosa …. that was priceless!!
I miss the days of MMr Pohlad handing out huge salaries. The way Mr Pohlad just without a second thought would hand out 100 million dollar contracts just like Steinbrenner. The way when a Free Agent would become available he would send good ole TR down to see the players agent and next acquire his services. I miss the good ole days
T you know i’m not a trade speculator and i dont think the Twins should sign just anybody but they had Johan and he was and still is the best LH pitcher in baseball IMO and they let him go. I do give the FO credit for signing Nathan and Morneau.
Were any of you there during that 3 game series with the BitchSox in September? That was great baseball. It was a hell of a season. I have no complaints about how they prepared for last season, given that they had no idea how some of those rookies were going to step up. My issue is that could prepare more completely for this season. That and Gardy assigning positions (SS, RF) before anyone has had a chance to show what they have in Spring Training.
I would love to have Kouzmanoff, just like I would love to have any of the other young, good players in the league under team control for another 3-5 years. The problem is that outside of NYY, and MAYBE Boston, every other team in the league covets players filling that description as well.
Trading Santana was something that I wish the Twins didn’t have to do. However, it would have been worse to see him walk away with nothing but a couple draft picks coming back. The Twins knew they would not be able to sign him with their budget, and they actually managed to extract a package of some (the exact amount is still unknown) value out of teams that knew the Twins wouldn’t be able to re-sign him either. As far as Hunter is concerned, with his actions in 2007 he proved himself to be just another player more interested in money than loyalty or honesty, and the only condolence I get is knowing that the Angels are going the wrong way right now, so while he’ll get his money, he won’t ever get a ring.
As for the Rays, right now you are seeing the product of picking in the Top 5 for every amateur draft for a decade; inevitably you stockpile pretty good talent. They then compounded that success by locking in the talent early, as is evidenced by Longoria’s deal (which is much like the deal Cleveland gave Sizemore). Great value for the team if they work out, not so much if they don’t, which is why I am a proponent of locking up youngsters like Span, Slowey, Baker and Liriano now, before they all want 8 million a year.
As for Joe, whoever said the Twins should wait on him because his value won’t get any higher is silly. What if he hits .360 with 15 homers, 110 RBI’s, grabs another gold glove and the MVP, and Steinbrenner talks about how in the “next year or two” the Yankees want to add a dynamic, under 30 catcher, and will pay “anything” to get him? That might up his value a bit. I would offer Joe a deal that matches Justin’s exactly, and lock him in through 2015.
two years, $17MM (I’m assuming they’d have to top TB, as they are better than the Twins and you have to top the other guy to win) total is all it would have taken to get a legit RH bat in this lineup, and it didn’t get done. That would leave them with $7MM more or so to play with….but, no Burrell for this team.
No players lost in trade, no draft picks lost, nothing. Oh well, I’m sure they’ll hit historically well with runners in scoring position again this year.
I wasn’t posing any opinion I was just telling him to rest in peace…
and then sent Cuddyer or Kubel to the Cubs for Derosa …. that was priceless!!
Your assuming the Cubs wanted either Kubel or Cuddyer. Since the package they got from Cleveland was three minor league pitchers, I doubt that’s the case.
Brock I need to RIP after I get done foreclosing some houses tonight
Pat Burrell is a career .257 hitter…
So let’s assume that if you don’t win the whole thing, than its the same as not winning anything, and you are therefore not competitive.
So lets say the Twins win 100 games next year, say 55 of them at the dome, should season ticket holders, as well as everyone else who happened to be at one of the 27 losses demand a refund, seeing as how the Twins refused to field a competitive team that day?
T:, what is your point? that OBP and SLG% don’t matter? Seriously? That BA is actually important in building a great team?
ggg, I like your positive thinking about a trade already in place to address 3B. Billy and crew seem a little too quiet and smug right now, so something could be in the works when you’re that far below previous payroll.
thrylos has a good point about the Padres being in flux
New post is up
T,
It’s been reported more than once that the Cubs wanted a LH OF bat for Derosa. I know Cuddy isnt that, but Kubel is.
mike wants wins -
Burrell’s career OPS+ is 119, and he will be 32 next season. Kubel’s OPS+ was a 118 last year and he will be 27. I know we need some right handed power, but replacing Kubel with Burrell doesn’t do a whole lot - except add somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-12 million in payroll.
danimals -
It appears that the Cubs moved both DeRosa and Marquis because they wanted to clear room for Milton Bradley. It seems odd to think that they would clear salary by moving DeRosa for an outfielder when they had one they were going after.
danimals:
I don’t know if Kubel would be what an NL team is looking for in the OF. The Twins seemed hesitant to keep him out there on any regular basis.
Pat Burrell is a career .257 hitter…
So?
