Twins are not, `in,’ on Joe Crede…….
Posted on January 9th, 2009 – 5:23 PMBy La Velle
…..yet.
Most of the vibe I’ve gotten from the Twins about free agent third baseman Joe Crede has been that his history of back problems is a bad match for their FieldTurf.
Then there was a note here that claims the Twins are in on Crede. That kind of puzzled me.
Here’s an update: The Twins are looking at all options while trying to upgrade at third base. A healthy Crede is an upgrade at third base. But as you can see Crede hasn’t been healthy.
Crede, as of now, is working out at home located just outside Jefferson City, Mo. (I’ve been to Jeff-City). In a couple weeks, he’ll head to Arizona to work out and see where he’s at physically. It sounds like the Twins will be there to see where he’s at physically.
If Crede is healthy - and let’s it be known that he’s not afraid of FieldTurf for one season - the Twins could be interested THEN. But before we all break out pencils and try to figure out how much he’ll cost, he has to prove he can hold up. And his agent is Scott Boras, so a multi-year deal isn’t out of the question. And at what cost? Indications are that his decision might not come until right before camp opens.
So it’s a little different from what I’ve heard earlier this offseason, but I still think it’s a longshot.
CORDERO UPDATE
Speaking of working out, Chad Cordero worked out for several teams - including the Twins - on Friday.
But all he did was play long toss. I mean, how much can you learn from that? These things end up being a meet-and-greet with the agent, who’s on the scene. I’ll eventually learn to ignore notes that claim a pitcher, “will throw for teams.” in January.
TICKET TALK
Single-game tickets for Twins spring training games go on sale tomorrow at 9 a.m. You can go to www.twinsbaseball.com for more details.
NON-ROSTER INVITES
The Twins have already met to discuss their spring training invite list. which I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s released sometime next week.
Clubs might bring in a couple extra players to make the clubhouses look full when other players take off for the World Baseball Classic. Especially pitchers. The Twins were shorthanded during the 2006 WBC and went to a back field at Fort Myers to see which minor leaguers showed up early. They found Matt Garza and brought him into camp.
HALL OF FAME
Someone asked me who was on my Hall of Fame ballott. I didn’t know I was obligated to release such information before the results were announced.
But since you asked, I voted for Ricky Henderson. Bert Blyleven, Jim Rice, Andre Dawson and Lee Smith. I don’t have my ballot in front of me, but those are the ones I know for sure.
FINALLY….
Don’t forget about this……and Twins pitchers and catchers report in 36 days…..
273 Responses to "Twins are not, `in,’ on Joe Crede……."
First!
Thanks for the update, LENIII.
I’m surprised Crede would be interested in playing on turf, especially if he’s looking for a one-year “recovery” contract.
With Boras, a one-year recovery contract could mean two years…
I’m in favor of bringing him in. I don’t believe the field turf will ruin him, but if he does go down (about a 50/50 shot no matter where he plays) you still have Buscher/Harris, just like we do now.
P.A. and La Velle has a nice ring to it.
Crede stats:
Batting Statistics
Career: Batting | Fielding
SEASON TEAM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
2000 CWS 7 14 2 5 1 0 0 3 0 3 0 0 .357 .333 .429 .762
2001 CWS 17 50 1 11 1 1 0 7 3 11 1 0 .220 .273 .280 .553
2002 CWS 53 200 28 57 10 0 12 35 8 40 0 2 .285 .311 .515 .826
2003 CWS 151 536 68 140 31 2 19 75 32 75 1 1 .261 .308 .433 .741
2004 CWS 144 490 67 117 25 0 21 69 34 81 1 2 .239 .299 .418 .717
2005 CWS 132 432 54 109 21 0 22 62 25 66 1 1 .252 .303 .454 .757
2006 CWS 150 544 76 154 31 0 30 94 28 58 0 2 .283 .323 .506 .829
2007 CWS 47 167 13 36 5 0 4 22 10 24 0 1 .216 .258 .317 .575
2008 CWS 97 335 41 83 18 1 17 55 30 45 0 3 .248 .314 .460 .774
Total — 798 2768 350 712 143 4 125 422 170 403 4 12 .257 .306 .447 .753
Hurt or not. he hits homers and is RH.
Win Twins!
A close friend of mine knows Chad Cordero well from there days at Fullerton. I will check with him to see if indeed he actually pitched today for scouts or if indeed it was long toss only. If that guy is healthy he would be a great addition to our bullpen.
The great thing about Crede is that he is a great defensive infielder who hits for power. He also killed us at home or away.
J Crede was horrible in the field during 2008. I realize historically he is a plus fielder. Likely do to his back, but he could not make the routine play. Another J Castino.
No thanks on Crede. But, Cordero could be interesting.
Wow…there’s a Jeff in So Cal, crazy! I think we should take a flyer on him if we can get him for 2 or less years. Like KB said, Buscher/Harris as a plan B I can live with. Then if Crede doesn’t work out at least we tried!
way to support jack morris lavelle. if he can’t even get a vote from the twins insider……. he will need a lot of luck.
[…] Twins Insider – […]
If rumors are true, he’s buddies with the M&M boys. That could influence him to come here. I suppose the only hope for this happening is if he’ll do a one year deal. Billy’s not going to give him any more than that. It sure would make sense on his part. Prove for a season he’s healthy and productive, then cash in next offseason. With the new ballpark revenue, the Twins might even be able to afford to sign him to a multi-year deal……… NOT!
i dont know why we all keep listening to the twins front office we are all getting are hopes up on crede or cordero and they have been saying that they have been looking at all of there options at 3rd base all year what a joke bs needs to get us a power hitter and a good 8th in guy then he should probably look at getting a gym membership and get off his fat a–
Crede is too greedy and
Chad has an arm that is still bad…
forget ‘em both!
Jim Rice and Lee Smith, fine players, mediocre hall candidates at best.
Note to Twins FO:
This is a buyers market, this opportunity may not come again for a mid-market baseball operation. This is the time to take advantage. Please use it wisely and don’t miss out.
If Crede could play 100-120 games for this team, I gaurantee he would hit more home runs then Buscher, Harris, Punto and Casilla COMBINED! You put him behind Morneau and in front of Kubel and D Young and that could rival any line up in the Central. It would certainly would hit more HR’s then the 100+ they hit last year.
surprise?? The twins have not been IN on anyone, as usual. Why the FO talks about having budget room and offseason priorities, I don’t know. I could be much more accepting if they told the truth.
Although it has to be worse being a Braves fan right now, losing Mr. Brave.
I want Crede. Even if it is a one year deal. IF he has a great year then we get one maybe two draft picks I know the twins like them.
give joe a two year deal with a incentive contract for a third. he can be trade bait. He is the best option the twins have and he has been from the begining. He is the bst way to improve this club
CreDL would be the second coming of RonDL.
Been there, done that.
No thank you
Wiggy is much more of an option and the Twins should look for rotation (Pedro Martinez anyone?) and not bullpen help…
just forget it the twins will NOT get crede or anyone else.I wish i didn’t love baseball so much because i’m tired of the twins Bullshiiiitttt.
crede is not even in the same ballpark as rondel. He is a great fielder with a top ten bat for third basemen. He is in his prime and he was a White Sox
thrylos98 with all due respect
I’m so confident in the Twins making a move that I called DirecTV and cancelled my “Extra Innings” for this season. As a Minnesotan transplanted to California, this will be the first year I have decided to not watch the Twins. Just disappointing when the only new signee you get is a weak knuckleballer.
The Twins contended last year while setting a major league record for batting average with runners in scoring position. Anybody think they’ll set more major league records at the plate this year? Other than for futility? I don’t want to spend my summer watching a ball club struggle to 81-81.
“I don’t want to spend my summer watching a ball club struggle to 81-81.”
Then why waste your winter posting on the Twins blog?
“I have decided to not watch the Twins. Just disappointing when the only new signee you get is a weak knuckleballer.”
“i wish i didn’t love baseball so much because i’m tired of the twins Bullshiiiitttt”
I guess that in the 100 years of baseball prior to free-agency, no team ever improved from one year to the next.
If the Twins don’t sign FA’s, they won’t improve - right?
Consider the fact that the Twins will NOT LOSE a significant FA this winter.
Consider the fact that their young team will be older, more experienced and the likelihood that they will be much better than last year.
The rats are leaving the ship, even though it is probably in no danger of sinking.
I will watch the Twins all season long, regardless of whom they do or do not sign this offeason, just as I have every year since 1976.
But let’s face it, Joe Crede and Chad Cordero are not the answer to anything.
Also, what is the conventional wisdom on the Bartlett/Garza for Harris/Young trade?
It seems to me that unless Young starts putting up Lyman Bostock-type numbers, the Twins got ripped off.
I mean, Harris isn’t even a full-time starter at this point, and Bartlett won the Rays’ MVP award!
DON’T PRINT THAT
Don’t be surprised if the Twins make a run at free-agent third baseman Joe Crede of the Chicago White Sox.
I don’t care what you think LaVelle. The Twins should have been oin on Crede from day one instead of talking to al these losers. Even if he doesn’t play THIS year. He would still be on the roster for the new stadium (real grass).
a couple of things:
a. I don’t get why anyone would think that a free agent third baseman who has a career OPS+ of 93 and the last 2 years he hit .216 and .248 in 500some ABs would be an improvement over Harris (heck, Punto put better numbers the last 2 years than CreDL)
b. All this talk about canceling season tickets or TV subscriptions or whatever if Smith does not make a move is pathetic. I guess if the Twins signed Redding (like the Mets did) would y’all be happy? (Gee)
To AM:
If I ever see you/recognize you, yes, I will get you a cookie.
To others:
I suspect that Dickey was not listed because he was a minor league signing. I don’t know if this was the case with other teams though. All I know is that when the line went by the Twins were the ONLY team with:
Whose In: [NONE]
Sane, good point. We SHOULD get better, without add-ons. But add-ons also look cool and make things work better and become more usefull. We’ll be, again, pretty good without additions, but we really willn’t be a threat the Really good teams.
He calls it a fun fact…
Fun fact: Nick Punto will be making roughly twice that of our entire starting rotation next year.
From:
http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/2009/01/minnesota-twins-salaries-payroll-2009-offseason/
That says a lot right there. Seriously. LNP? I like the guy…but come on. Seriously.
Chad Cordero had nothing last year in Washington — he was throwing in the low 80s. I know he’s still young, but be afraid.
I’m with Thrylos–no thanks on Crede. Another .300 OBP guy? No. Looks like we’ve lost out on Kawakami.
TK2, Punto is fine as our SS for $4million. With his glove, it’s actually a bargain. If he were a corner outfielder or a DH or a 1B, his bat would be atrocious for our lineup. As a SS, it’s fine. Comparing his price tag to our starting rotation is deceptive, considering the rotation is all pre-arbitration. If Baker, Liriano, Slowey were free agents, they would all get $10m+/year contracts easily.
and thanks for the cookie
TK(2),
“We’ll be, again, pretty good without additions, but we really willn’t be a threat the Really good teams.”
Even if we had signed a third-baseman like Crede (or Blake, Wiggy, DeRosa) AND a shortstop like Cabrera, AND a reliever like Joe Nelson:
ON PAPER, we would STILL not compare with the “Really good teams.” like the Red Sox and Yankees.
But THAT PAPER is only good for wiping …..
“Also, what is the conventional wisdom on the Bartlett/Garza for Harris/Young trade?”
My conventional wisdom is to wait at least two more years to begin to get an accurate assessment of the trade. If you assess last year only, I think it was about a push based on the stats, but the Rays benefited immediately from Bartlett and Garza by going to the World Series.
sane, you’re up early!
werbellik,
“you’re up early!”
I have no choice.
We have a triple-header today.
we might need to bring the G-man out of retirement.
sane,
The only triple-header we could have here today would be cold, snow and wind! As I watched the PGA Tour in Kapalua last night I asked myself once again, “why do I live here?”
werbellik,
It would be difficult to top a golf course in Kapalua.
Very true on the Kapalua golf course sane. It looks pretty close to paradise on earth to me. I should know this, but what age/level of baseball do you coach?
Crede has not even had 400ABs the last 2 year. And 21Hr and 77 RBI is a bit better than Punto. You need to look at his numbers while healthy. It would be taking a chance but that is what the Twins must do. Lets just sign Pedro who is old with throws in the low 80s and put him in our rotation. He has no health issues
I mean, Harris isn’t even a full-time starter at this point, and Bartlett won the Rays’ MVP award!
Which is the stupidest thing ever, considering EVAN LONGORIA also plays for the Rays.
werbellik,
I am a High School Varsity coach, although today I am coaching the Varsity, JV and Frosh-Soph teams in separate games.
Keep in mind, that if everyone who would like to move to Kapalua, actually did so, the island would sink into the ocean.
“I mean, Harris isn’t even a full-time starter at this point, and Bartlett won the Rays’ MVP award!”
Try comparing their actual numbers, instead of completely bogus awards.
I am all for an incentive laden contract and against a big money contract for Joe Crede.
He was a thorn in our side every year.
The downside in this deal is the jerk factor, aka Scott Boras.
NAME Harris Bartlett
BA .265 .286
HR 7 1
RBI 49 37
Runs 57 48
Defense OK Better
Chad Cordero losing velocity last year means nothing. HE HAD SURGERY BECAUSE SOMETHING WAS WRONG!!!! Anyone who has had arm problems, whether in the elbow or shoulder, knows that it’s almost impossible to throw as hard as you can when healthy. The guy’s career stats are amazing and he would look mighty nice setting up for Nathan. Plus, he’s pretty young.
*compared to when healthy
What’s notable about Harris and Bartlett is that neither one played more than 130 games nor reached 500 AB’s.
In any case, what IS the current conventional wisdom on the trade (including the Young and Garza components)?!!
La Velle, Thanks for voting Blyleven and Henderson for the HOF, they both deserve it. Thanks!
What portends very well for Garza is his 2008 IP (184) to hits (170) ratio. That’s a sign of a very competent pitcher!
Two things about LNIII’s HoF selections:
1. He should have voted for Jack Morris;
2. How can he not remember all his votes?!!
Wow. If I had the great privilege of filling out such a ballot, you can bet I’d have all my picks burned into my brain!
An additional HoF comment:
It’s delightful how nobody in the sports media has expressed a reason to vote against Henderson.
In the era of PED’s, the lack of controversy and the consensus that Henderson was an absolute monster on the field is refreshing!
Skip Crede, bad back and Boras is a double whammy waiting to happen!
Skip Cordero, bad arm and not good history is another double whammy!
Take the safer route and go for Wiggy and search for a few relievers - doubt we’ll get Cruz or Lyons; crap, Affeldt signed for 2 yrs and $8 million, Cruz and Lyons will look for equal that!
Twins are holding out that Guerrier, Crain, Bonser, and Mijares are serviceable and then maybe have some options in the minors.
There are too many people believing the Twins have to do a LOT more to get us over the top; we just need a third baseman with power and our young pitchers to pitch a little better then last year.
No thank you on Crede…It’s looking like Wiggy or bust to me….And by bust, I mean a season-long dose of Brendan “mediocre” Harris, and Brian “look first base line front row seats, I have no idea where my throws are going” Buscher..
T and Sid,
It is significant that Bartlett was voted team MVP. This points to his ability to steady and lead an infield. This ability on top of his offensive and defensive skills make him a very valuable player. Far superior to Harris IMHO. This intangible is the reason the Twins consider Punto so valuable. This being said, I still feel the trade was good. Delmon has a good chance to become an impact player. Just the kind the team needs to compete with the big guys.
Janet,
I’ve noticed a number of your posts. My compliments to you on your baseball savvy. Always analytical. Refreshing in this, what is sometimes, a sea of regurgitation.
Paul,
Are you hitting on Janet?
mmmhmm,
I’m an old married man. A few years ago I could’ve showed her some moves.
She just stands out for her unusual baseball interest and intelligence. I feel excellence requires comment.
This whole “Bartlett is Rays MVP” thing is perhaps the most absurd argument in favor of Bartlett I have ever read.
I think it was either LEN or JoeC that posted the MVP voting results, and even though Longoria got more overal votes in the balloting, none of them ranked higher than the single vote that somebody gave Bartlett.
That’s right. “Bartlett as team MVP” was so engrained in Tampa that somebody actually went as far as to vote him over Longoria in the MVP balloting.
So while Punto and Bartlett may be similiar in the “OMG spirit of the team” sense, this obsession with Bartlett in Tampa is far beyond Kool-Aid…
What the heck…
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/01/pirates-rumors.html
The Yankees potentially dealing Nady to the Pirates? Didn’t the Pirates just send Nady over there in July?
T,
It didn’t seem absurd to the baseball writers who witnessed the effect he had on his teammates. It’s an intangible. Just because you can’t see it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Twins “not in” on another FA:
Twins “not in” on another FA:
Paul,
Thanks, and I agree with you. There is alot of statistical analysis on this blog. I get it! That is how teams evaluate players and that is one the great things about baseball. It also goes to the great history of Baseball.
However, alot is to be said for the “intangibles”. That, I believe is what makes a good athlete a great athlete. The intangible is why I am a sports fan and baseball is my favorite sport.
Janet,
You articulated what I was also thinking, essentially, “Why arent we jumping in on the buyers market after years of being budget wise and building up a war chest (as much as a mid market team can)”? It makes no sense and seems short sighted. This was the year to add a player we normally would lust at but pass on.
P.S.
I am not saying Jason Bartlett is great.
Danimal,
Buster Olney has an article about some available players. We should be able to supplement the team with FA’s if we trade some of our players to satisfy team needs.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3823314&name=olney_buster
The Twins are never “in” on any free agents that are worth a damn.
Any guesses on what crap free agents the Twins will sign? I’m going to say Juan Uribe and a terrible bullpen guy like Julian Tavarez.
Crede even as a power righty DH, 3B fill in on grass would help..a nice bat to back Morneau. Trade Kubel and Cuddyer and Punto for Bullpen help and a shortstop…I would be happy if that all happened.
I’m thinking a little outside the box on this.
Sign Crede, and send Buscher to AAA or elsewhere.
Against RH starters, Kubel DH’s and Crede plays 3rd.
Against LHP, Crede DH’s, Kubel sits, and somebody else plays 3rd (Harris or Tolbert)
The DH spot is going to be a revolving door again anyways. Morneau and Mauer will get AB’s there. Kubel will see alot of time there. Cuddy/Young will too. I see it being a plus being able to rotate guys through there.
LaVelle,
I asked about the hall of fame ballot. You are not obliged to ever have to give that information. I was just curious, and I appreciate it.
While I may not have voted for Lee Smith had I had the vote… I agree with all of the above.
I would also like them to elect Tommy John to the Hall of Fame, but not as a player… I would like to see a tribute to him and to Steve Yeager former catcher of the Dodgers who created the neck guard for catchers that have prolonged the careers of pitchers and catchers from grade school to 412 year old Jamie Moyer.
fcmlefty
I like that idea.
fcmlefy,
I also like it, you could also play Crede in the field on more road games and DH him more at home.
What would be really nice now is if we could find that bullpen help.
Seeing Saito sign on with the Reds kind of hurt…
The fact we were even looking at Japanese pitchers is vaguely encouraging… it shows that they are actually moving towards the 21st century of baseball.
The good news out of Saito signing with the Reds though is that Brandon Lyon is still out there, and St. Louis is the only other team that has a real opening at closer that has the cash…
As the spring comes closer and closer… hopefully we can pick up some players at decent prices and make everyone happy. (or as many as possible), and more importantly make the Twins better.
Seattle has stated that they are in a rebuilding stage,give their new GM some building blocks from our farm system.Trade any SP not named Baker,Slowey or Lirano and prospects for Beltre.Their new GM will not be on the hook unless he drops the ball and Beltre walk for less value after next year.IMO,Boras is not that big of a problem as everyone thinks,especially in this economy.We can wait even until spring training for a set up guy,someting will shake out.
Ricky Henderson was the greatest lead off hitter in the history of baseball, wise selection LEN.
fcmlefty: With guys like Young and Cuddyer fighting over the 3rd OF spot, and Kubel the primary DH…there should be no need for Mauer to ever play DH again.
If the Twins bring in a 3B, it should be with the sole intent of him being at 3B as much as possible unless he’s hurt or getting a day off.
Saito (RedSox) and Kawakami (Braves) signing elsewhere means the Twins can probably put their search for a Japanese interpreter on hold.
The Twins are at a disadvantage when it comes to talking to FA set up bullpen help because those guys all think they can/should be closers and they’re going to sign incentive-heavy contracts with teams who don’t have the closer job locked in already, like the Twins do. Once those teams are done, there may still be a couple of decent possible set up arms available for bargain prices.
3B is going to be trickier. Seattle and Colorado won’t talk sensibly about Beltre and Atkins, at least until their season starts going down the toilet.
It’s interesting that Wigginton still hasn’t received an offer he’s been willing to accept. Maybe his price tag will come down far enough that the Twins will feel he’s worth a shot. Otherwise, the Crede RH DH at home, 3B on the road, idea might have some merit. I just suspect he’ll get a better opportunity to play every day somewhere else and all things being equal, he won’t choose to sign with a team playing on green cement.
I still don’t understand why people insist on saying “First!!” if they are the first to post on one of these blogs. Its very apparent that you are first, as you will be the first post listed.
If you really want to impress everyone be the last poster and start it out by typing “Last!!!”.
Ok, well this is not a big deal. I finally agree with the Twins on this one. Boras and Crede’s bad back make this one a pretty easy decision for the Twins. If Boras wasnt his agent and/or didnt have an injury history, I would think they should go after him.
After saying that I have been critical of the Twins this offseason and I dont want to give them any credit by not havin interest in Crede. They still need a 3rd baseman and another solid arm in the bullpen and Smith has been hibernating.
The were never interested in Derosa along with any other players it seems. This team will never give up prospects to get a player that makes significant money.
They need to do something with their holes, relying on a Buscher/Harris and our current bullpen will not get the Twins past the first round in the playoffs.
This team will not as good as they were last year. The Twins were tops in the majors in Running in Scoring Position last year and it will not happen again. Hopefully the starters can stay healthy, so this team stays competitive. No additions, means no playoffs.
Nothing better than fans calling other fans pathetic for feeling one way or another about how they spend their own money. Interesting that those same posters say that it is wrong to say the TWins are pathetic for how they spend their money.
Mike wants wins…
that has always bothered me as well, but when someone goes too far attacking the team, or management, owner, players, coaches… the attacks come for that too…
so while I try to cut back on the going too far… I find it ironic that the people who go after one another on here seem to find it ok.
according to what I saw when going through the free agents…
2 decent options at 3rd still out there… Wigginton and Crede… both have issues, but they are all that’s left to choose from, and both are better than what we have.
11 relievers out there that I would be ok with seeing the twins pick up one or two of…
5 starting pitchers (in an attempt to trade one of the starters now to improve a position)
4-5 veteran bats that I would love to be able to sign to a minor league deal with an invite here as well… like Garciaparra or Frank Thomas as a right handed bat off the bench/veteran
Not first!…. seriously, just back from 10 days at Disney World. A pleasure to get away from the snow & cold. Been away from the computer “since last year”…..so missed out on all the insightful & “inciteful” Twin’s discussions. I hope that Bill Smith will use some of the Twin’s system wide depth of pitching & outfield prospects to improve bullpen quality &/or SS &/or 3B. More likely he will again “bargain hunt” veterans as FA’s are getting nervous about having a job as Spring Training nears. Who knows, maybe he will get lucky for once…. 
I totally agree with everyone who thinks he could be DH’ed at home. Throw in one of the platoon boys who played well last year. He is the only white sox I have ever liked except for Griffey because he sucked when he played for them. Crede would be great and the dome will only be a short term problem for him. Please find help for the twins…
-Twins Fan in Arkansas
Why are people so sure that this team needs to add something? This team is set to compete to win the division. Beyond that is tough to plan for no matter what your payroll is because nobody nows the future fortune holds as far as injuries, veterans not playing up to previous levels,or emergence of talent from the minor leagues. We could sign Wiggs, Pedro, and Dunn then have Morneau and Mauer both get season ending injuries. We could bring in Cordero and what if he bombs? We could bring up someone like Delainey or Slama from the farm and they could dominate. We COULD win the division with the team we have so it’s not fair to be over reactive. I think Cuddy, Young, Gomez,and Harris will all have better seasons offensively so maybe all this clambering for right handed power will prove unwarranted. Last year at this time everyone thought are bullpen would have to carry our weak rotation unless we added some legit proven starter. Obviously things didn’t play out that way.
Trying to be optimistic because spring training is so close! YES BASEBALL!!
shazel,
I agree.
I apologize for recycling what I posted last night, but here goes:
I guess that in the 100 years of baseball prior to free-agency, no team ever improved from one year to the next.
No free agents means no improvement, right?
If the Twins don’t sign FA’s, they won’t improve - right?
Consider the fact that the Twins will NOT LOSE a significant FA this winter.
Consider the fact that their young team will be older, more experienced and the likelihood that they will be much better than last year.
Even if they sign NO free agents.
The last post was mine.
I’m not sure what happened.
sid,
if every player is better this year the Twins will win the World Series.
The worry would be that some would regress, some would have the same type year and someone could get injured.
wholesale spending or spending for the sake of spending is not a good idea. But if they can fill a hole with a guy who is an upgrade to the team and can be gotten for a market fair or better contract, i think the team should make a deal.
I love how everyone thinks our moronic GM will actually make a deal or a signing to help the club. Give it up, it ain’t going to happen. The FAs are falling like bowling pins and not one has a Twins logo on them.
He needs to be canned…
Shawn,
But if they can fill a hole with a guy who is an upgrade to the team and can be gotten for a market fair or better contract, i think the team should make a deal”
I believe the Twins will be an improved team, even with their current roster.
HOWEVER, any deal which satisfies all of your three requirements:
1)”fill a hole”
2)”is an upgrade”
3)”fair market or better contract”
should be jumped upon, like a hawk on a rat.
I think Wiggs could be an upgrade. And I think he’s worth substantially more than Blake.That is just my opinion and I’m not a true baseball man so what do I know? But offering a 36 year old above average baseball player 14 mil seems like alot. Offering a 32 year old baseball player who’s above average 15 mil+ seems like a good move.Some of you out there are “real baseball people” what am I missing? Why would the Twins offer Blake “big money”(by twins standards) but not offer Wiggs similar money? Numbers say that Wiggs is a better hitter and D numbers are a push. What am I not seeing? Or is it really all about, and I’ve said this before, bringing in guys who will buy into this “TWINS STYLE” of baseball. If it is really all about playing twins ball and not about just getting straight talent then the Twins org is doing a great injustice to their meager fan base.Wish I had the real answer.Actions speak louder than words though and I still haven’t recovered from the Castillo trade that eventually cost us Santana(and we got NO major league talent in return).
Мог бы долго с вами спорить на эту тему
Apologize in advance for going off subject just a little…
When you go from the Trib’s home page to the Sports icon and pull down to Twins… you will notice that the header shows a montage of photos with “Twins 08″. Now, I realize that this is probably just an oversight of the graphics person not having had time to make the switch to “09″.
However, I think it is deeply symbolic of Twins’ malaise. Apparently everyone believes that ‘08 Twins were good enough and we are going to stick with that in ‘09 because we don’t have to spend any money to correct it.
So, I suggest that we keep the banner listing the “Twins 08″ until Mr.Smith actually makes a signing of any significance.
Good job, La Velle.
“you will notice that the header shows a montage of photos with “Twins 08″. Now, I realize that this is probably just an oversight of the graphics person not having had time to make the switch to “09″.’
Action photos of the ‘09′ season are hard to come by right now.
Professor,
Yub d’a vy u mot!
Hey, Sy…
Even though it is winter I believe they (graphics) have a “9″ on their keyboard.
But why should the Trib change if the Twins aren’t going to do the same?
backrow,
I see your point.
I was just thinking that “2009″ in the graphics for 2008 action photos would probably draw criticism for being inaccurate (disengenuous?) labeling, but I’ll let the STRIB come up with their own excuses.
Is Billy Smith ann Idiot or the Pohlads Cheap..or both. This offseason has been a disaster as far as upgrading the team. And their payroll is still $20 million less than what it was 2 years ago.
But why should the Trib change if the Twins aren’t going to do the same?
That was a long way to go for such a low payoff.
I still haven’t recovered from the Castillo trade that eventually cost us Santana
The Castillo trade did NOT cost the Twins Santana. Santana’s status with the Twins after 2007 was on thin ice because of lack of effort to extend his contract BEFORE his contract year.
RisebroughSux,
Risebrough, Billy Smith and the Pohlads.
How do you find the time to hate everyone?
Its got to be a full-time job.
Any guesses on what crap free agents the Twins will sign?
I’m worried they’ll sign Joe Crede.
It’s an intangible. Just because you can’t see it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
I just don’t understand how intangibles should count for Bartlett, but heaven forbid somebody should comment on Punto’s.
That’s more what’s so frustrating to see.
[…] reports that the Twins do not seem to be in the running for Joe Crede as his health risk is a factor. Only in the case that Crede “is healthy” and […]
T…
Thanks for your wonderful knowledge.
T….
If the Twins wouldn’t have traded Castillo, but rather traded for an impact player to HELP the twins reach the playoffs(who were only 6 games out at the trade deadline) then maybe Santana doesn’t see this as the org that’s always planning for the future that never comers and sign a 5 year 100 mil deal with the twins. Just think the twins are about 20 mil below budget. Who could possibly add more to this team then Johan? We would have to be favorites to win the WS if we added Santana to our current rotation.
They didn’t even get any major league talent in exchange for Castillo(Santana’s best friend on the team).
It would be like if the Twins traded Casilla now, I’m sure Gomez would feel slighted and disrespected by the team. Those two seem to feed off each other. Gomez played his worst ball of the year when Casilla was injured.
We would have to be favorites to win the WS if we added Santana to our current rotation.
Not with the bullpen in it’s current state…and without a bat to protect Morneau.
If you honestly believe that Santana didn’t sign that contract because of Castillo, you’re mistaken. Especially when you consider that Morneau, Cuddyer, and Nathan (at least two of which I believe commented on not liking the trade) all still signed extensions.
And I was mistaken, Santana wasn’t IN his contract year…he was entering his contract year. Had TR done a better job of working with contracts, Hunter and Santana would both likely still be here.
Every once in a while, a column strikes me as hitting the nail directly on the head. I just finished reading this column by Posnanski and that’s the feeling I got while reading it. His observations about his local team (Royals), the Twins, and about us as fans is, imo, right on the money.
http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/11/willie-bloomquist-and-the-dunn/
T, I agree that Santana would still be here if TR had done a better job… not so with Hunter. I honestly believe the Twins felt it was better to let Hunter go a year early rather than keep him a year too long. His skills were diminishing and I feel they rightfully determined they were not going to pay a premium for what would inevitably be declining productivity over the length of time he was expecting in a new contract.
Signing Joe Crede is a no-brainer if he’s healthy. Two things to keep in mind are that he’d only be playing on field turf for one season and with Brian Buscher on the club it’s not like Crede would play anywhere near all 81 home games. In fact, since Bill Smith passed on Casey Blake earlier this offseason, that proves that Buscher might just have a long term role with this club. Consequently, he’s going to see some appreciable playing time in 2009 regardless. You throw Brendan Harris into the mix and Ron Gardenhire would suddenly have a lot of flexibility at third base. Bottom line is that with Buscher and Harris available, Joe Crede wouldn’t have to assume a 162 game workload which could put too much strain on his back.
Chris, if Crede is added to the roster, don’t you imagine either Buscher or Harris would be sent packing? Someone has to go.
JC,
Too bad that someone isn’t #8!
One more thought I on Pohlad. His passing kind of reminds me of the passing of Bill Wirtz here in Chicago. While Wirtz didn’t offer to contract the Blackhawks, he basically made them an invisible sports team down here since they didn’t have home games on TV nor market at all.
As soon as Bill Wirtz died, his son got the home games on TV and they have done an amazing job of marketing the team (Winter Classic didn’t hurt either).
Point is Jim Pohlad has the opportunity to show Twins fans that he wants to make winning the World Series a priority. Maybe he will actually do some of things us “armchair managers” have been clamoring for and solidify this good core of players so the Twins can win it all again.
Personally, I think the amount of involvement the ownership has with regard to the product on the field is consistently overestimated by Twins fans.
Virtually everything I’ve heard or read indicates that Carl had almost no involvement, beyond saying “don’t spend more than you take in.” Do we really think Jim and the other kids will do any more or less?
This is one organization where ownership has turned the control over to the baseball people and relied on them to do their jobs. While I may not be convinced Bill Smith is the best GM in the world, I’m not sure I want to see more direct influence by the Pohlads themselves on baseball matters.
Chris: I would rather not see the Twins have to “platoon” a guy that is supposed to be the fix at 3B.
Very good point JC: Ownership should trust it’s staff to make baseball decisions, and only get involved when it’s time to sign a check if neccesary.
T, I dont disagree about the preference not to have to do that platooning.
That said, this is a unique situation. In my mind, the “need” is for a RH bat with some power. Ideally a full time 3B would be the answer, but those options are pretty limited right now.
If there’s a way to get a bat like Crede’s significant ABs to improve the offensive output of the lineup, by some combination of playing 3B and DHing, I could live with that for a year. I simply doubt HE would be interested in that sort of role at this point, unless it turns out it’s his only option.
Without Adam Everrett on the roster, it might be feasible for the Twins to keep Buscher and Harris. Obviously Buscher would back-up Joe Crede at third and Brendan Harris would most likely split time with Nick Punto at short. I don’t care what Gardy says, Punto isn’t the kind of guy who should start more than 100 games. Of course, it’s always possible that Buscher would be demoted or traded if the Twins get Crede because Harris is capable of being a back-up for shortstop and third base; but that still leaves them a little thin on the bench.
well assuming the Twins go with 12 pitchers again, there’s really only room for 4 bench players. Redmond is one. Whichever OF doesnt start is another. If the Twins sign a 3B who isn’t currently on the roster (say Crede), that leaves 2 roster spots for Buscher, Harris and Tolbert. I believe Tolbert is staying, but regardless, a 3B from outside the organization means one of those 3 won’t be on the roster (unless I’m surprised and they go with 11 pitchers).
When I was watching the Rays and the White Sox playing in the postseason I was reading in one of the blogs that the white sox didnt want anything to do with Crede. They emptied his locker before the season was over.They were very upset with him for whatever reason. I dont think it will be smart for the twins to got after him unless they only offer him one year. I dont know if anybody notice but most players that have Boras as their agent have injury problems. Look at JD Drew. He hit the DL every year. Crede is another one. Andruw Jones comes in mind.Ankiel is another.Bloomquist was on DL last year. What do people think?
I really don’t think Boras has anything to do with players getting injured, Christina. If his clients are hurt more, maybe it would have something to do with how players tend to hire him as their agent midway or later through their careers, when they’re more prone to injuries.
The problem with acquiring Boras agents, to me, is that mid market teams need to do what the Twins have done with their young stars… sign them to longer contracts before they become FAs. If they wait until they are free agents, there’s no way they compete for top talent on the open market. Boras does not, as a rule, allow his clients to sign contracts before hitting the market.
For a player like Crede, that’s not really an issue because the Twins wouldn’t necessarily plan to retain him anyway.
JC,
I think you will see more of the signing og young talent to longer contracts. Look at the Rays with Longoria. If he continues to develop with the ability he has already shown, he will prove to be an incredible bargain.
While the Twins have done this as well, the issue remains with the contract AFTER. The Twins weren’t able to Santana in his prime since TR didn’t do a good job of planning for that, which echoes what was stated higher in this thread.
My hope is that the Twins are planning for Joe Mauer’s next contract NOW. Seems like a lot of people think the Twins will take this up after the 2009 season, however that still worries me a bit since I would like to see the Chairman locked up for 6-7 years sooner rather than later.
Last!
The 50th anniversary of singer-songwriter Buddy Holly’s death will be Feb. 2. I believe tickets are still available for that night with an all-star lineup at the Surf Ballroom, Clear Lake, IA.
Holly remains a singular force in American pop culture history. There would have been no Beatles without him, for instance. Probably would have been the John Lennon band with him soloing or something. Yeah, just John and Yoko.
Tickets are $85.
Happy New Year, everyone.
JimC, that was a great blog by JOe P. He’s been my favorite for a few months now. Not surprisingly, I like guys who actually produce results. I could care less about “heart, hustle….” that doesn’t result in actual outcomes.
That said, I am not of the opinion that you can have 8 guys that can’t catch. But, it would be nice if you DH could hit….and get on base. Seriously, that blog points out the stupidity of signing lots of “nice” players. They add up to the cost of 2 very good (or great) players and 3 backups.
mike I think what I took from that piece is that there are different ways to build a competitive team and that, ideally, you have a few guys of each “type”. You cant win with 8 Dunns and more than you can with 8 Bloomquists (or Puntos).
I don’t believe it’s fair to say that the latter type doesn’t “produce results”. They are simply less statistically tangible results, which frustrates a lot of fans (like you, for instance!).
Joe’s frustration is that the Royals under Moore talk about wanting to build on the Dunn model, but sign nothing but Bloomquists… which would be twice as frustrating as the Twins are to their fans. What hit home with me (and is consistent with what I see on these blogs) is that his point that it is extremely frustrating to fans who believe in the Dunn model to be fans of teams who do not practice that model.
It explains why I may be less critical of the Twins than you or someone else might be. I’d like to see more offense added, but I’m not offended by the presence of Punto, too.
I simply doubt HE would be interested in that sort of role at this point, unless it turns out it’s his only option.
We’re in agreement there.
Good points, JimC.
I think that is clearly part of my frustration with this team, as constructed. I don’t understand why they hate walks so much from their pitchers, but don’t care about if their hitters have a high OBP (which is the not the same thing as a lot of walks, but they are correlated). I don’t understand why they wouldn’t want a guy like Dunn or Burrell, who are clearly good to great hitters (as measured by runs produced, but not BA and SOs, and base stealing).
I want a combo platter. The problem I have is that they seem to discount the combo, and mostly want guys like Gardy was as a player, not guys like Hrbek.
Besides, the blog post on infomercials was one of my favorite reads in weeks/months. Love that blog.
I would really like a Burrell or someone similar… a professional right handed hitter. If they weren’t committed to Kubel to the degree they seem to be, I think they might have been involved with Burrell.
But none of the better professional hitters are going to sign with the Twins when they know they’d be coming in to a platoon situation, for the same reason Crede isn’t likely to want to sign with Minn. They can’t build their own value in that situation and that’s what they’d be trying to do… be in a position where they can get a big contract a year or two from now when they hope the economy is better and there’s more demand for their services.
It’s also why, short of a dramatic trade involving Kubel and/or one of the OFs, the only realistic upgrade possibility left is 3B and even that’s not attractive to FAs if they feel they’re going to be platooned.
Posnanski’s always interesting and usually pretty insightful.
But personally I don’t know why it has to be one or the other.
Kirby Puckett ‘produced’ tangible results on the baseball field, but I doubt anybody would say he wasn’t fun to watch, didn’t get his uniform dirty or wasn’t a good defender.
Sidenote: Saito signs with Boston for between $1.5M and $2.5M guaranteed. And still Smith sits on his hands. Has he even been seen publicly since the wasted trip to the winter meetings? Did he come home from Vegas?
It doesn’t have to be one or the other, Chief and I would add that I think Torii Hunter also had both qualities when he was younger. But when you look at the realistic (or even unrealistic) options for the Twins to add this off-season, I don’t think there were many Kirby Pucketts out there. The one guy that I think might arguably fit that description might me Beltre… but I’m not sure how much in talent I’d be willing to give up for what would certainly be a lone one year of his services.
As for Smith, I wouldn’t assume that just because he’s not holding daily press briefings like some GMs seem to do, he’s not working on anything. The prices on the remaining FAs are dropping every day that they don’t sign. The teams, including the Twins, are certainly in the better bargaining positions right now.
Of course, the flip side to that is, the trading market is pretty dry. There’s no reason for a team to give up talent to fill a need when there are so many “cheap” FAs avaialable.
Yadel Marti would be an interesting idea. Unfortunately, there will probably be a bit of a bidding war for his services.
http://www.newsday.com/sports/ny-spcuba1112349717jan11,0,4065293.story
The problem with waiting, Jim, is that the attractive options start to disappear, leaving the Twins, once again, to sift through the scraps left over. There weren’t a lot of 3B options to start the offseason, for example, and there’s less now.
It happened last year in July, when even a casual fan could see the Twins really could’ve used bullpen help. Yet the front office dithers and dallies, wringing their hands at the cost, until the options dwindle to a waiver claim in August on Eddie Guardado.
As for Bloomquist, the problem I see is it’s a waste of money. If you need Bloomquist, why pay $1.5M? There’s dozens of guys hanging around the minor leagues who could give you what Bloomquist gives you at the major league minimum. Every team has guys playing in AAA that either have proven at the major league level they can’t hit, or will never get the chance, yet are perfectly capable of playing major league defense, and would no doubt love to run out every ground ball.
One thing not receiving ANY discussion:
We will have Liriano for a whole season! IMHO, this will be huge for us.
Another thing, we will have Casilla, Span, and company here for a whole year after significant and good experience last year - they wont be frazzled.
I’m excited about next year, as things stand. That being said, I wish we had gone after Pat the Bat ……………….
As for Bloomquist, the problem I see is it’s a waste of money. If you need Bloomquist, why pay $1.5M? There’s dozens of guys hanging around the minor leagues who could give you what Bloomquist gives you at the major league minimum. Every team has guys playing in AAA that either have proven at the major league level they can’t hit, or will never get the chance, yet are perfectly capable of playing major league defense, and would no doubt love to run out every ground ball.
But they don’t have the super hustling hustle scrappy grittiness factor that Willie does.
There weren’t a lot of 3B options to start the offseason, for example, and there’s less now.
And with the exception of Blake (And to a lesser extent DeRosa), the two that MN would most likely be interested in are still on the market (Wigginton, Crede)
Geez I wish I had Lavel’s job, sleep in, oversleep, overeat, then go to spring training in Florida for the rest of the winter. Lavelle, could you actually do some work. By the way, is Dubay around, I miss him on the FAN.
Chief, the only reason Willie entered this discussion, of course, is that Posnanski mentioned him in his column. But yes, I agree, paying what they paid for him was baffling. I give the Royals credit for going out and trying to make improvements… I just don’t think they have (and I sense Posnanski feels the same way).
Moore seems to be making changes for change sake and maybe that gives some fans a positive feeling because it lets them at least feel like their GM knows changes are needed. My feeling is that, while I do think Smith could have made a couple of moves, if I had to choose between the “go change everything and hope the new guys work” and the “cautious… change only when you feel very strongly that you are improving your team” approach, I’d take the latter.
Just seems like there should be something in the middle that might work out for the Twins.
Hey, what about Eric Hinske? He should be pretty cheap, he used to be a full-time third baseman, and he’ll hit a home run every now and again.
The Rangers have asked Micheal Young to move to third. Young wants a trade. I think the Rangers could use some pitching which, the Twins have, and we need an upgrade at short. Is it possible the Twins could swing a trade for Young, who has five years left on his contract?
The Posnanski article is excellent.
And, yes, I would like to see more Adam Dunn types put on a Twins uniform.
He calls it a fun fact…
Fun fact: Nick Punto will be making roughly twice that of our entire starting rotation next year.
From:
http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/2009/01/minnesota-twins-salaries-payroll-2009-offseason/
That says a lot right there. Seriously. LNP? I like the guy…but come on. Seriously.
Punto is the Twins infield defense.
“”And with the exception of Blake (And to a lesser extent DeRosa), the two that MN would most likely be interested in are still on the market (Wigginton, Crede)”"
So, in other words, there weren’t a lot of attractive 3B options to start with, and there’s less now.
Like I said.
Any ideas about bringing in Michael Young to play SS and move Alexi to 2B, Punto 3B?
Young doesn’t field well enough to play short, barely hits well enough to play 3rd, is on the wrong side of 30, and has an albatross of a contract.
Ick.
young? young? but…. we already have a multimillion dollar solution - Puntilicious!!! he’ll work his tail off and be the QB of the infield. he’ll dive into 1st base for you, too.
Yonny,
That’s kind of real cheap shot against Lavelle. You should ask for your money back or go for his job.
I say give the Rangers Cuddyer, Blackburn, and Boof (or Buescher) and get Young.
Something tells me they would rather have Delmon, but Michael Young’s contract is going to be an issue so the Rangers can either eat some of that money, or take over Cuddyer’s stupid contract.
“Young doesn’t field well enough to play short”
Young won the Gold Glove last year
So, in other words, there weren’t a lot of attractive 3B options to start with, and there’s less now.
You made it sound like the Twins were missing opportunities. And with the exception of Blake (because really…DeRosa is a MIF) that’s not the case.
Sure, 3 is more than 2. But it’s hardly “Oh man the options are drying up fast!”
Young won the Gold Glove last year.
Rafael Palmiero won a Gold Glove while spending an entire season at DH.
matt: To put things in perspective, back in 2005, Hunter won the Gold Glove even after missing half the season due to injury.
At least I think that’s how it went down. I seem to recall Ozzie Guillen being publically frustrated about that one.
No new news regarding the Twins getting a 3rd baseman. Big shocker there!
I seem to recall Ozzie Guillen being publically frustrated about that one.
I should add that this is one of the few times I saw eye to eye with Guillen.
I seem to recall lopsided players not entering the HOF. How again did Ozzie Smith make it.
Ozzie Smith when batting was almost an automatic out every time. How is he in the Hall Of Fame again
“”Sure, 3 is more than 2. But it’s hardly “Oh man the options are drying up fast!” “”
You yourself have told us (on multiple occasions) that the Twins won’t, and shouldn’t, sign Crede due to the back injury/turf thing, and that Crede wouldn’t want to sign here anyway.
So it appears–using your logic, not mine–it’s down to one viable candidate.
I’d say the options are indeed drying up fast.
“Ozzie Smith when batting was almost an automatic out every time. How is he in the Hall Of Fame again”
I guess you have a lot to learn about baseball.
That gives no explanation Pete D
“You yourself have told us (on multiple occasions) that the Twins won’t, and shouldn’t, sign Crede due to the back injury/turf thing, and that Crede wouldn’t want to sign here anyway.
So it appears–using your logic, not mine–it’s down to one viable candidate”
Candidates are not officially eliminated because T dislikes them.
The Twins FO makes their decisions independantly of T and you.
Ozzie Smith when batting was almost an automatic out every time. How is he in the Hall Of Fame again
He was hardly an automatic out. He turned himself into a pretty respectable offensive shortstop for a good portion of his career. As Pete said, you have a lot to learn about baseball.
(I realize I shouldn’t feed the trolls, but it’s so difficult sometimes)
Chief: I also said that DeRosa wouldn’t make sense, since they need a career 3B and not a guy moving over from MIF.
So really, in my eyes the 3B options were Wiggy and Blake (if we limit it to FA). There’s still the trade route, and I think either Beltre or Atkins would be better options than Wiggy or Blake.
So it shrank from 2 to 1…and really that’s a pretty crappy scenario to begin with. (Not quite the “Punch in teeth vs. kick to the groin” comparison I used for some other discussion….but still pretty limited. 
Here’s mlbtraderumors take on Young:
Twins: Jon Heyman wrote about a month ago that they inquired, but wondered if Young would waive his no-trade clause to go there. The Twins re-signed Nick Punto to play shortstop, but could find a place for Young. Third base is probably considered a bigger need. Surely the Rangers would love to pry one of their young starters loose though.
Young wants out of Texas because they’ve asked him to move to 3B. Which means any team looking at him would have to play him at SS. That gets Punto out of the lineup, and would be an upgrade offensively (don’t know defensively, but I think it would balance out in favor of the Twins)
If the Twins sign Wigginton, that means the starting pitching is free to trade for a different need (though I think the bullpen is a more pressing concern than SS).
Ideally, fix 3B and BP first. Trade for one and sign for the other. Don’t start looking at DH or SS options (especially if it is only fixable via trade) until the primary holes are fixed first.
Otherwise they risk getting distracted with other positions and 3B suddenly remains a hole due to a lack of resources from “fixing” the others.
“That gives no explanation Pete D”
As snepp said, Smith was hardly an automatic out. While a career .337 OBP isn’t a number you typically see in Hall of Fame candidates, it isn’t horrible. For example, Cal Ripken Jr. had a career OBP of .340 and Robin Yount a .342. Given Smith’s defensive excellence, it’s not really hard to figure out why he is in the Hall.
PS: Michael Young has a no-trade clause. I wasn’t able to find if it was full or partial…but he’d have to waive it to come to the Twins.
“PS: Michael Young has a no-trade clause. I wasn’t able to find if it was full or partial…but he’d have to waive it to come to the Twins.”
It’s a full no-trade until 2010. Then it becomes partial until May of 2011, when he gets 10-5 rights. At least according to Cot’s.
Michael Young has a $12.4 million per year contract in addition to the big trade package the Rangers would require.
And we ARE talking about the Minnesota Twins - right?
sane -
I’m guessing that it would either be a full salary dump for a very small package of players, or a large package with the Rangers paying for a large portion of the current contract.
So basically if he approves to come here it’d be 2 years of Michael Young. (Unless you’re able to find a team not on his list that wants him)
sane: I’ve started seeing Young’s name about here…so I thought it wouldn’t hurt to see what kind of rumors are floating around associated with him and the Twins.
Pete D,
The problem is that there are OTHER teams out there, with different philosphies, who will offer the large trade package AND pay his contract.
My favorite year for Ozzie “Hall of Famer” Smith was in 1995 when he hit a whopping .199. His career total of 28 hr’s can be mystifying to view. In 1979 Ozzie had a .211 avg and in 1981 he batted .222 I really like his 1980 avg of .230. In 1983 his .243 avg was mind blowing and almost unheard of for most hitters of that era and is still looked at as a mile stone for all to praise. His smile makes me even more nautious then an interview with Steve Garvey.
jimmy bee -
I’m glad that you picked those 4 years. You should completely focus on those 4, and not the other 15 years he played, including ‘85, ‘87, ‘91, and ‘92, where he had slightly above average offensive numbers and STILL played perhaps the greatest defensive shortstop ever.
But we all know that only batting average and home runs win games, and everything else just gets in the way.
Pete D if defense gets a player into the HOF then explain to me the difference between Ozzie being a career .262 hitter with 13 GG and Jim Kaat having 16 GG with 283 Wins and still not being in the HOF.
jb,
Defense (and offense) gets position players into the HOF.
Pitching gets pitchers into the HOF.
You have your opinion.
The baseball writers who are HOF voters, overwhelmingly disagreed with you.
Let’s see… with Young, we’re talking about a guy who’s numbers have been declining, is vastly overpaid. and has demanded a trade (to someone on a small list of teams he’ll accept a trade to) rather than help the team that agreed to overpay him be more competitive by taking on the challenge of changing positions.
Yeah. Just the guy I want. Not.
JC,
Except for “demanding a trade”, that sounds like Cuddyer.
You can’t compare Cuddy to Young. Cuddyer sucked both offensively and defensively when he played 3b. The coaches don’t want him there either, so it’s not like he’s refusing a request to change positions.
sid:
by taking on the challenge of changing positions
We’re talking about a SS going to 3B. Not a RF going to 3B (who already failed once at 3B)
saam,
Good point.
“sid jb,
Defense (and offense) gets position players into the HOF.
Pitching gets pitchers into the HOF.”
Ozzie played defense great but had no offense. Offensively he was not much better then Punto for avg and he had around the same number of homers averaged per season. Ozzie did not get after it and didn’t slide like Punto. Overated one sided and not 2 sided player Ozzie. If a DH can’t make the HOF why did Ozzie.
Earlier this off-season I posted an analysis of the Twins current roster, pegging their projected (marcel-based) win total at 85-86 wins. I argued at the time that they were in a perfect position to upgrade 2-4 wins to become truly competitive.
The biggest impact would be for the Twins to sign a new DH and replace Kubel and/or take some AB from either Cuddyer or Young. As we all know, that’s not going to happen. However, as the prices of FA have gone down, and the Twins remain under payroll, I see several very viable options for the Twins. I’m going to post these options in a moment.
Ozzie was a much, much, much (I left out about 100,000 “muches”) better defender than LNP.
That’s why Ozzie got enough HOF votes to get elected, and why Nicky will never get a single vote, even if his mother could vote.
Yeah, I don’t think it’s fair to compare Cuddyer and Young in this situation. If… BIG if… the Twins approached Cuddyer and said “you’re going to play 3B this year,” and he threw a hissy-fit and demanded to be traded… then you’ve got a fair comparison.
Does anyone really believe Cuddyer would do that?
One article reported that, when asked what he’d do if he reported to ST and was told to go play 3B, Young said “I don’t know.”
I guess if I were him, I’d weigh whether it was worth giving up that insane amount of money I’ve signed for… then I’d go play 3B and shut the F up.
No DH’s in the HOF, but there are several poor-fielding sluggers there.
Frank “Homerun” Baker didn’t get his nickname for his defense at 3B.
Here are the options, ranked from biggest impact to smallest:
1)Sign Ben Sheets. Replace Glen Perkins’ 4.68 FIP/170IP with Ben Sheets’ 3.61 FIP/170 IP. Net gain: 2.3 wins.
2)Sign Orlando Hudson (.346wOBA, -5UZR), move Casilla to SS, Punto to 3B. Net gain: 2.2 wins. (Casilla and Punto are equivalent value at SS, while Punot upgrades 3B over the Busch/Harris platoon by 0.5 wins.)
3)Sign Orlanda Cabrera (.314 wOBA, 10UZR), move Punto to 3B. Net gain: 1.6 wins.
4)Sign Wigginton (.347 wOBA, -10UZR) for 3B. Net gain: 1.5wins.
5)Trade for Michael Young (.333, -8UZR), move Punto to SS. Net gain: 1.1 wins.
Needless to say, I’m opposed to trading for Michael Young.
I like saam’s point.
Even the Twins coaches don’t want Cuddyer back at third base.
Not to mention the fans who sit behind the first base dugout, who are already ducking Buscher’s throws.
Also, interestingly, trading for Beltre nets us 2.4 wins. He’d be nice, but expensive in prospects and salary. Might as well get nearly the same difference by signing O-Hud.
Sid why is Steve Garvey not in the HOF. He was just as much of a kiss arse as Ozzie was. He (Steve Garvey) even made cameo appearances on TV.
We need Steve “Kiss Arse” Garvey in the HOF. He is just as fake as Ozzie is.
As much as I like Harmon Killebrew, his defense was below average, and he wasn’t one of the top 10 hitters of all time.
On the other hand, many believe Ozzie was the best defensive SS of all time. True, or not, that compensates for his being an average hitting shortstop.
I’ve seen the following numbers for O-Cab, O-Hud, and Sheets:
O-Cab: 3/42
O-Hud: 3/36
Sheets: 3/44
However, with prices plummeting, I would imagine these prices could work (plus a first round pick):
O-Cab: 3/30
O-Hud: 3/27
Sheets: 3/36
jb,
How do you “fake” great defense?
“If a DH can’t make the HOF why did Ozzie.”
No one said a DH can’t make the Hall of Fame. But how many viable candidates have you had that were primarily DH? Paul Molitor, for example, DH’ed in 1174 of a career 2683 games played. That’s a sizable chunk, and he is in the Hall. I’ll be interested to see how many votes Edgar Martinez gets when he is up in a couple of years. Frank Thomas played more than half of his games as a DH, and I expect him to get in the Hall.
Given the relative ‘young’ age of the DH, and the fact that it only exists in one league, you are going to have a tough time finding a guy who played primarily as a DH and played at a high enough level to get considered for the HOF. But I think you will see guys who are considered DHs to get into the Hall.
Pete: Do you think Ortiz (a career DH) is HOF bound?
Ben Sheets? Only thing he is good for is a betting pool on when he is going to get hurt during the season.
Michael Young? Let’s see which pitchers the Rangers want.
Any word on whether or not the Twins are on Michael Young’s no trade list? He’d look great in MN!
i am waiting for the “punto hit .284 and young hit .284 so punto is as good as young” comment.
trade blackburn or perkins for young and they pay half his salary, punto goes back to utility guy full time where he belongs. trade dy for kouz and you fixed 2 big problems.
Young would be half a win better than Punto at short.
Courtesy of Baseball Prospectus, an interesting read on Craig Breslow’s foundation for thyroid cancer: (Who knew he was a molecular biophysicist and a molecular biologist?)
Craig Breslow’s Strike 3 Foundation: A Twin Gives
by David Laurila
A number of professional athletes make an effort to give back to their communities, with some running their own charitable foundations. Among them is Minnesota lefthander Craig Breslow, who posted a 1.63 ERA in 42 games out of the Twins bullpen in 2008 after being acquired off waivers from Cleveland in May. A 28-year-old graduate of Yale University, Breslow recently established the Strike 3 Foundation in his home state of Connecticut.
David Laurila: What is the story behind the Strike 3 Foundation?
Craig Breslow: I founded the Strike 3 Foundation in 2008 with a compelling inspiration to reciprocate my good fortune. Privileged by a healthy and prosperous upbringing, yet forever touched by the childhood cancer of my sister, I now seek to raise awareness and support for this devastating disease.
I grew up in Connecticut before graduating from Yale University. When I earned my degree in Molecular Biophysics and Biochemistry, I intended to pursue a career in medicine. My plans to become a physician were delayed when I was drafted by the Milwaukee Brewers in 2002. In 2005, I made my Major League debut as a member of the San Diego Padres; I later moved on to the Boston Red Sox organization and was a member of the 2007 World Series Championship team.
Maintaining close ties to the community in which I was raised, I return to Connecticut each off season. This winter, when the impulse to give back became overwhelming so too did the impetus. I recalled with a familiarity all too real, the morbidity that permeated our house when my sister, at age 14, was diagnosed with thyroid cancer. But I remember with even more vivid clarity, the euphoric response to the declaration of her being cancer-free after treatment.
The visionary in me sees the day when all cancers are eradicated. The realist understands that the first steps toward this feat are to heighten awareness, raise support, and encourage cancer research. The Strike 3 Foundation hopes to hasten the arrival of the day when no child with cancer goes uncured.
DL: What are some of the goals you have for the foundation?
CB: Because the Strike 3 Foundation is very much in its infancy stage, we look for 2009 to bring us solid footing in the charitable community. We hope to establish ourselves as a reputable and worthwhile beneficiary of charitable funds, to expand our donor base, and also to make some tangible and quantifiable benefits to pediatric oncology research. We have been engaged in preliminary meetings with some of the local pediatric oncology departments and are excited by the potential impact we can have.
DL: Do you feel that professional athletes have an obligation to do what they can to help their communities?
CB: I believe that all people, not just professional athletes, have an obligation to do what they can to help their community. Clearly, however, “all they can” varies greatly. For some, volunteerism is all they can afford; for others it is easier to write a check or donate a service. In some way, each of us is more privileged than another, and I think we have an obligation to pass that on.
DL: How would you describe your 2008 season and what are your expectations for 2009?
CB: I think my 2008 season was a very successful one. It was my first full season in the big leagues, and I like to think that I proved to a number of people, most importantly to myself, that I can pitch in the major leagues. From the standpoint of the Minnesota Twins, I think most fans and management would consider the season a success, given that we lost two all-stars and still manage to tie for the AL Central title. However, not making the postseason was disappointing, and with the core of the team returning, we are excited about the prospects of 2009.
Information on Craig Breslow’s Strike 3 Foundation can be found at: http://www.strike3foundation.org/
i am waiting for the “punto hit .284 and young hit .284 so punto is as good as young” comment.
Typically when people compare a player to Punto, they’ll use more than one stat. Young for example has the same AVG. But his SLG is much high, and he hit 10 more homers (12 vs. 2).
Punto has half as many ABs, but I doubt even doubling that he’d project to be as good as Young.
I think the concern with Young would be that the Twins are locked in for at least one or two years (depending on what teams he’d waive his NTC to go to)
He’s hit 300 or better in the 5 years leading up to 2008, all with more than 600 ABs…he’s also put up double digit homers in all but one of those years.
The question is “What’s it going to take?” Teams dealing for him have a bit more leverage considering he’s pulling a “I won’t play” on Texas…
If they want MLB ready (or MLB already) talent, I couldn’t stand to see more than one pitcher dealt.
Blackburn to me would be too much, perhaps Perkins. I’d also inquire to see if they’d help us free up roster space by taking on Buscher or Harris. (I’d lean towards Buscher given Harris flexibility)
That would put Punto on the bench, Tolbert back to the minors (or perhaps up for trade), and Buscher or Harris likely dealt somewhere as well.
Why on earth would any one want Micheal Young. Way over paid with little talent and a baby to no less. What he needs to do is wipe away the tears blow his nose put his head down grab his glove and head over to 3rd. What a baby and people around here really want this guy sober up and get real.
Everyone overlooks the magic of “chemistry.” Last year’s team was young and spent a good part of the year developing the clubhouse chemistry necessary to carry them over the top (not to mention the ALL of the starters and half of the regulars merely trying to prove they could stick in the Majors). I think they should stand pat with what they’ve got and start using some player options to bring of top performers from the Minors to fill any BP holes; eventually, someone like a Mijares will stick. Also, go with the Harris/Buscher platoon which could deliver even better combined numbers than last year with a little stability. Under no circumstances trade any of the Fab Five; they have a special chemistry of their own through their before-and-after game confabs. Gardy needs to let them throw more pitches rather than yanking them at the first sign of trouble; they lost how many games in the 7th and 8th innings that they would have won by letting the starters go deeper? We protect our pitchers so that other teams can sign them to big free agent contracts where they’re not constrained by pitch count. Lastly, use the $20M under payroll (an arbitrary comment if there ever was one in today’s down economy) to sign the Fab Five to long-term contracts now, as well as to put toward signing bonuses for some top draft choices (college infielders with power for a change).
Rickey and Rice in, Blyleven not in.
Jim Kaat and Blyleven need to be inducted into the HOF.
Jesse Orosco got a HoF vote? Is that the same Jesse Orosco that was like 50 or something with the Twins in either 2002 or 2003?
T -
“Pete: Do you think Ortiz (a career DH) is HOF bound?”
That’s a good question. He needs to bounce back from last year, I think. Edgar Martinez is probably going to have to wait a while to get the votes, if he ever does, and he played 18 seasons with an OPS+ of 147. Ortiz is sitting at 138 now, and should supposedly drop a bit as he grows older. Ortiz does have the Series rings, and will have more HRs than Martinez, but he is well shy of 500. I think he needs to average 30 over the next 7 seasons to get there.
I guess I just can’t see Ortiz staying healthy enough, and playing long enough, to get the types of numbers that Edgar Martinez put up. So I’d guess no.
STU,
You have uttered the 4 letter word “Chemistry”.
Many here dismiss it, I presume because there’s NO designer stat for it.
I’m with you, no matter what you call the “IT”, because there is human activity involved. It’s a gestalt, where the Whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
Regards,
1. TwinsGeek has a follow up posted regarding Twins payroll.
2. Let’s pretend we all grant you the ‘chemistry’ thing, Dragon. Let’s assume it’s necessary, it makes all the difference, yada yada yada.
Then what? I mean, They must not have had “it” last year, since they fell short, right? Many here laugh at the Chisox “chemistry” yet Chicago won the division. Did the Sox have great chemistry last year?
Does the Twins current roster have “it?” If not, what moves should the Twins make to get “it?” How will we know when the Twins have “it?” Conversely, How will we know if the Twins 2009 team doesn’t have “it?” If they don’t have “it,” can they go out and buy “it,” or do they have to develop “it” internally?
Talent and chemistry are separate entities.
The more talent that a team has, the less chemistry is required to get the same results. (White Sox)
And vice versa. (Twins)
Any questions?
“”Any questions?”"
Yes. See above.
They must not have had “it” last year, since they fell short, right?
Also consider that Span and Casilla weren’t with the team all season, but contributed significantly to “chemistry” in 2008.
Perhaps they didn’t get there soon enough to push the team over?
Chief,
I phrased that entirely wrong.
I should have asked:
Do you have any questions THAT I CAN ANSWER?
Measuring “chemistry”?
I don’t know of any textbooks on the subject, but from experience, I know a couple things.
The team will have better “chemistry if:
1) If your players like each other.
2) If your best players are good people.
3) If you have a minimum number of jerks.
4) If your jerks have a minimum amount of influence.
Other than that, I have no clue.
Fair enough Sane.
One more question: If all of 1-4 exist, and your team has better chemistry, has that resulted in extra wins?
I’m not trying to be a smart-arse. I truly don’t know the answer to that question. I’m willing to be persuaded, either way.
In my own experience, across multiple sports teams, 26 years in the military, and now in business, I’ve been on lots of teams. Some certainly ‘got along’ better than others, but looking back it’s hard for me to attribute any success, or lack thereof, to that.
But I could be wrong. Wouldn’t be the first time, nor likely the last.
I do believe coaching (or leadership) is essential to success.
Sane…
one more thing to add to the chemistry thing…
players that have won and lost together… struggled and succeeded together… that bond… that factor is huge. Hrbek and Viola talked about that a lot with the 87 team.
You have good chemistry if the roster isn’t in a constant state of flux. Ask the Yankees how lack of chemistry works for their rent-a-teams. Sane, it wasns’t lack of talent that resulted in the Twinks coming up a game short. Hell, Gardy blew at least a DOZEN (by my count) games with bad rotation/’pen management. I remember Blackburn blowing a game in the 9th when he could have gone to Nathan for a “sure thing.” And there were a bunch of other dumb moves. They could have called up Mijares and Liriano earlier and avoided the one-game playoff with the Sox with ease. So much for the “more-talented Sox.” They shouldn’t have been there at the end at all. The Twinks were over-achievers largely because of a combination of talent and CHEMISTRY. If they can get Delmon to open up a bit more in ‘09, they’re going to be tough to beat.
sane,
Great eval on team chemistry. The one thing I could add is from my experience is it is crucial to have a team “culture”, that includes winning, that the players can easily agree with. It seems people mesh well with some cultures and not well with others. I’ve been on good teams that were religious teetoalers and good teams that didn’t consider the game over until closing time. This requires the right mix of people. The more respect a person can show for individuals preferences the easier he can mesh.
I believe in chemistry. But, it has to result in better outputs or it doesn’t matter.
Which players do you believe had better stats last year because of the chemistry? Or, who would have been worse had Manny been on the roster?
Just curious. I think Joe and Justin and Baker and Slowey and Liriano produce regardless of the chemistry.
Stu, the Yankees won more games than the Twins last year.
Chemistry requires:
1. Good leadership in the clubhouse.
2. An open environment where everyone can put their 2 cents in (belief that everyone will be “listened to” and not disciplined for negative comments).
3. People who actually get along with each other (don’t have to “like” per se but that helps a LOT).
4. Open competition but not cut-throat.
5. Willingness to help each other in slumps.
6. Unselfishness.
7. Winning attitude even when things are going bad.
8. Try hard at all times (so your teammates know it by what they see).
9. And running out all ground balls HARD!
mike wants wins: and the cost per win comparison for the Yanquis and Twinks was what again? The Yanquis were SUPPOSED to win it all, and what did they do? Choked. The Twinks were picked by everyone to finish 4th in their division.
“”Ask the Yankees how lack of chemistry works for their rent-a-teams.”"
Apparently those rent-a-teams can make the postseason 13 consecutive years, from 1995-2007, but last year the lack of chemistry caught up with them.
And they still won more games than the Twins.
USAFChief: the point is that the Yanquis should win every year because their payroll dwarfs everyone else’s if all it took was talent. Buying talent doesn’t necessarily guarantee a penant (there are other factors, including chemistry), let alone a World Series championship. I say again, what’s the cost per win for the Yanquis vs. the Twinks. There’s no way that Twinks can compete, dollar-wise, because they don’t have the TV revenues, etc., that the Yanquis do. And don’t give me that B.S. that the Pohlads are the “richest owners.” That’s not how it works; it all depends on BASEBALL REVENUES, not the owner’s net worth.
Chief,
Stu makes an exellent point about cost per win. It’s easy to overcome lack of chemistry if cost is no object. Ala Yanks and, please don’t take this the wrong way, military. But in my business and the Twins cost looms large.
I think it is humorous that Bert Blyleven thinks he is good enough for the Baseball Hall of Fame. He was only an average pitcher at best. They should take his name out of contention and consider better players.
First off, the Yankees won more “game”, not “games”. 88 wins to 89. And neither made the postseason. (You could argue the Twins were closer to that than the Yankees).
Also, the Yankees last won a World Series I think in 2000. They’ve only been back once, if I remember correctly, since then.
Most of the time, it’s easier to buy your way to victory. But as teams like the Twins and Rays proven, chemistry and attitude can often be just as huge an assist.
And considering that we’ve seen success from anything from a payroll (Yanks, Dodgers, Red Sox) to attitude (Rockies, Rays)…
Look at how easily the Rays trumped the Sox, then ultimately how easily they were subsequently trumped by the Phillies.
Heck, look at the how quickly the Cubs went down…
They should take his name out of contention and consider better players.
Hi stuart/herb.
Why hasn’t this guy been banned yet?
The other thing that bugs me is all these mythical trades being proposed on these Twinks blogsites. Yes, yes, let’s “dump” one of the Fab Five and some prospects for the likes of Escobar or Hardy - not! How long did it take Santana to win the CY? It didn’t happen overnight, and we had 5 serviceable starters in their first or second year of big league starts who almost any club would have loved to have in their rotations! Perkins is a case in point; he was great early on until he tired at the end. Let’s see what he learned last year before we decide what to do over the long-term. There are AAA and AA starters that are really close, too. I think Humber has the right makeup, being a CWS winner, too. Lots of pieces and parts. Let these kids gel for 2 years; the young 3B guys are 1-2 years away, and there are BP arms nearly ready, too.
T: how do you know that was chemistry, and not talent or luck?
the point is that the Yanquis should win every year because their payroll dwarfs everyone else’s if all it took was talent.
This.
I would even go as far to say that spending money doesn’t even neccesary guarantee getting the best players.
T: how do you know that was chemistry, and not talent or luck?
I can tell you it certainly wasn’t payroll.
That assumes that spending money is equal to spending it wisely. There is no evidence that is true. Just because they spend a lot does not mean they have amassed the most talent, or been the most lucky. It just means they spent the most.
If all it takes to win is not spending money, why are the Pirates so bad?
I love how you’ve tried to change the argument from “it takes chemistry” to “the Yankees are evil”. Again, great rhetorical tool, but it has nothing to do with the discussion of chemistry.
Stu, if you want to wait two years, what do you do with Nathan (he’s in his 30’s)? How do you propose re-signing Mauer and 5 starting pitchers and Kubel and Nathan?
Isn’t a worker/employee generally more productive if he/she enjoys going to work… enjoys his/her co-workers… and just generally is able to maintain a positive attitude toward the environment in which he/she spends the majority of his/her time?
Compared to those stuck in workplaces where they feel disrespected, where there’s limited positive social interaction (and perhaps even social conflict)?
Call it chemistry or whatever… but in my experience, people of similar talents/abilities will perform at higher levels in work environments that they feel good about being in than the same person will in a bad environment.
If I’m willing to pay for the very best and most experienced employees, I may be able to get positive results even if they don’t get along. But if I can’t afford to do that and still price my products/services competitively, I need to look at ways to attract and retain “good” employees and get them to produce above their pure talent levels.
The Twins hit less Home Runs than any team in the entire Major Leagues in 2008. It is an obvious weakness. The Twins philosophy does not include power. However, adding a genuine power hitter to play third base might make all the difference in the world to the standing in the division for the Twins.
JimC, that is the theory, yes, but it only matters if they are more productive. Hence my question.
Who on the Twins was more productive than they would have been if they were on a team with worse chemistry?
I believe in chemistry and comradare (sp?).
If you want to have a discussion regarding ‘wins per dollar’ we can do that, but what does that have to do with whether or not ‘chemistry’ exists, and if so, is “it” important, and if so, what do you suggest the Twins do about “it?”
If the Yankees have proven ANYthing it’s that you CAN buy sustained success, and they’ve done so by buying a lot of talent, not a lot of ‘chemistry.’
That in and of itself should be enough to convince you that if the Twins are going to spend their money wisely, it should be with an eye towards assembling talent, not ‘chemistry.’ And I fully agree it’s critical the Twins spend their payroll money wisely.
And for the record, I have never said the Pohlads should be spending more on the Twins because of the Pohlads personal wealth. What I’ve said, and believe now, is that the Twins in 2008 and 2009 could easily increase their payroll given what they’ve told us they’re willing to spend based on revenues.
Chemistry will make all teams better than the talent level would indicate.
Whether chemistry will make that team “good enough” is dependant on how ridiculous the expectation level is.
If the expectation level is not achievable with the given talent and the maximum possible chemistry, then the fans will still not be satisfied.
mike, the problem is that it’s impossible to go back and determine how much (if any) less productive a worker (or in this case a player) would have been in a less positive environment.
As a business manager, what I know is this… over the years, I’ve had good and bad work environments and I know that, while workers come and go, my group has been generally more productive when there has been a good environment.
I don’t need the impossible… to be able to measure what “would have happened” if the environment had been different… in order to believe that it’s in my best interest to do whatever I reasonably can do to foster a positive environment.
I recognize that bean counters, actuaries and baseball stat-heads will find that to be difficult to swallow. But I’m ok with that. I’ve seen the results and I don’t need statistics to validate the belief.
Chief,
It seems to me that the perceived reluctance of the Twins to sign some FAs out there might just be their attempt to spend wisely. They want guys who fit with the “Twins way”. Maybe there’re looking to compliment the existing team chemistry. Or at least not degrade it.
Ok, so we are going to stand pat for ’09, where does that leave us?
Pitching- More experience all around
Plus, Liriano hopefully will give us a full year.
Plus, Mireles looks to be the real deal and plugs a gap in BP
Minus- Neschek won’t be back this year either — I guess that is a neutral
Infield- We have what we had and don’t have to pay Lamb and Everett.
Plus, Casilla has one more year of experience
Punto hit better last year, excellent defense.
Morneau – getting to have “crafty veteran” status
Harris and Butcher can only have benefited from ’08 experience.
(When we changed Harris’ name from Brenden to “Boner” his BA went up dramatically. Boner sounds more like a ball player than Brenden IMO)
Catching- We have the best 1-2 in baseball
Outfield -
Plus- Cuddyer is back and hopefully can give us a full year plus some HRs.
Plus- Young improved his hitting as year went on. I look for big #’s this year.
Plus- Gomez and Span benefit from a year in the bigs. (dodge sophomore slump!!)
If we can avoid injuries, we should do better than last year. And, last years just surprised (and pleased) me a whole bunch. Go Twins!
(Hey, La Velle, I like your stuff. Good work!)
“” over the years, I’ve had good and bad work environments and I know that, while workers come and go, my group has been generally more productive when there has been a good environment. “”
I don’t disagree, Jim, but in my experience that’s been almost exclusively decided by the quality of the leadership, not the quality of the workforce.
I think perhaps much of the ‘chemistry’ argument might be better classified under ‘effective’ or ‘ineffective’ leadership.
USAFChief,
I would submit that last year the Twins had great chemistry, using as the threshhold of outperforming expectations. You can count on one hand the number of posters on Twins blogs who predicted 85+ wins for the Twins last year. The consensus was 74+/-3 wins. Vegas had the over/under at 73.5 wins, which I happily cashed the over in Late August I believe. I wouldn’t have taken the bet if the number was say 78.5.
In reference to the Yankees, IF your team’s talent is significantly higher than your opponents, then chemistry is a far less significant factor to winning.
For the most part, the Twins over a long period of time have played above their talent, or maybe better got the most from their talent.
As to last year, and looking forward to this year. Last year the Twins were the YOUNGEST team in baseball. With the final 5 starters (those who finished the year in the rotation…not Bonser or Hernandez) Baker had the MOST ML experience of 1.5 years (?), Slowey, Liriano & Perkins had something like roughly 1/2-3/4 of a season experience, and Blackburn had NONE,ZERO,NADA… Casilla, Gomez, & Buscher had a year or less ML experience, Span had less than Blackburn. Young, turned 23 Sept 14th and with his 2+ years expierence was more experienced than 1/2 the team.
What’s not to love about this group? Add a bit of chemistry, of learning and growing together, it is possible/likely to have positive growth WITHOUT adding anything.
Regards,
I also don’t disagree that chemistry and work environment helps*. But if you can’t measure how the outcome has changed, and you can’t identify it, how do you know how much to invest in it, versus more talent that might not be as “nice”?
Jim, you yourself use “generally more productive”. That’s what I’m talking about. You have obviously observed some difference in outcomes to make that statement. Right?
Is it better to have Bay or Manny (when Manny is trying)?
*I’ve been involved in moving a work environment from bad to great. It made a huge difference in our productivity, but I could measure it every day, because we agreed what we would measure and we did.
Mike, I think that’s where the “intangibles” come in. Intangibles by definition can’t be touched or measured. They are subjectively viewed attributes. Maybe some teams have measurable metrics that they view in this regard but then they are no longer intangibles. Who’s better. Manny or Bay? Tito and the GM made their choice.
This has been a very interesting conversation about this stuff. To me, more than the ordinary blather. Have a good night all.
Mike,
I’m not saying wait 2-3 years to win; they can do that with what they’ve got on the 40-man roster, as augmented by those “close” in the minors. I’m saying wait a couple of years before jettisoning/trading a couple of guys who might end up being the analog of David Ortiz. As the young guys show they’ll stick, signing early to Twinks-style contracts that give them security in exchange for a “Twinks discount” while keeping the chemistry going of a tight team growing together.
The point about the Yanquis is that they almost invariably lack chemistry, and they underachieve every year, never mind that they made the playoffs 13 straight years (how many Series wins again since ‘00?). And they should if payroll was the only thing that counted (thankfully, it’s not).
You’re on target, Paul. It takes us old guys to move the discourse into something that truly debatable (beyond mere statistics). I’m a retired naval officer. And it beats dreaming up these ridiculous trade/FA signing scenarios.
“”Add a bit of chemistry, of learning and growing together, it is possible/likely to have positive growth WITHOUT adding anything.”"
True. But wouldn’t it be MORE possible/likely to have positive growth if the Twins were to augment the talent on hand?
I agree, Chief, that leadership plays a major role. I just don’t think good leadership alone is enough… or at the very least it certainly helps if you’ve got the right personalities to work with.
When you ask about Bay vs Manny, I can’t give a blanket answer. If I’ve got a relatively mature roster/clubhouse, I’d be all for bringing in Manny and taking my chances. But if I’ve got a bunch of kids just starting their major league careers, I really don’t want them “learning” how to carry themselves from Manny Ramirez, because pretty soon I would have 7 Mannies… and chances are only one of them could hit well enough to make it tolerable.
Would I stand pat with status quo talent because they all get along well? Hell no. If I’m a GM, my job is to improve the team and I’d be out there looking for someone with the talent to do so. Judging how well (or how poorly) specific pieces would gel with the existing group is part of the “art” of putting together a roster. If it was all about numbers, anyone with a computer could do it.
USAChief…
I think you are onto something…
Talent and a better chance at winning can bring out the very best in people which definitely helps chemistry.
Sorry I had to bail out on the previous discussion, because it is one of my favorite subjects.
If the quandry is:
“Should we NOT add talent, because it may screw up the chemistry?”,
my answer is KEEP ADDING TALENT!!!
However, if a potential addition has torpedoed one of his former teams, (Manny Ramirez, Jeff Kent) then just target someone else.
There are always “other guys’ who can add to the Twins talent level, without blowing up the team “chemistry”.
But DON’T STOP UPGRADING.
Just research your potential upgrades, and don’t add obviously bad characters.
Another observation from many years of experience.
I consider myself to be a very authoritarian coach.
However, unlike the old saying that a team takes on the personality of its coach, I found that my teams took on the personality of my best players that particular year.
If my best players bought into the program, we overachieved.
If my best players DID NOT buy in, we UNDER achieved.
I was able to mitigate the underachievement, but I could not as a coach (leader), take the team to the level that good player leadership could have taken it.
IMO, players will play harder and better for teammates they like, than they will play for a coach they like.
HEY….Game 7 of the ‘91 series is being broadcast right now in ESPNCL.
romer,
I thought you were renouncing your Twins addiction in favor of selling Buddy Holly tickets.
This is for a couple of people that were commenting on La Velle’s collumn…I couldn’t post all the stat info…
Don Sutton W-14 L-11 GS-33 CG-07 SO-2 IP-234.7 H-208 HR/A-20 BB-59 K-158 ERA-3.26 League ERA-3.52 (23 seasons)
Jack Morris W-16 L-11 GS-33 CG-11 SO-1 IP-241.3 H-225 HR/A-24 BB-87 K-156 ERA-3.90 League ERA-4.08 (19 seasons)
Bert Blyleven W-14 L-12 GS33 CG-11 SO-2 IP-245.3 H-228 HR/A-21 BB-65 K-182 ERA-3.31 League ERA-3.90 (22 seasons)
By looking at those stats, and if you want to add in the fact that Jack won 3 world series rings, Blyleven 2 WS rings, and Sutton never won a single ring.
I chose Sutton to compare them to because he is the only pitcher with over 300 wins that in my opinion does not belong in the hall of fame. By comparing the stat… it’s pretty easy to say that had they all played equally (and Bert missed most of 2 seasons due to injuries in his 22 year career) that both Blyleven and Morris belong in the hall of fame before Sutton, and that if I were voting…
Blyleven would have been a 2nd ballot hall of famer, Morris probably wouldn’t have made it, and Sutton would never have gotten a vote from me.
Blyleven averaged more than half a run a game better than the average pitcher in his era… if we compare that to the average pitchers now who do that…
Johan Santana, Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux, John Smoltz, Pedro Martinez…
compared to other pitchers of his era that I could think of and find… Ron Guidry (injuries kept him from being a Hall of Famer and he’s a YANKEE!!!), Jose Rijo, Dwight Gooden, Sid Fernandez (who ate himself out of baseball), and Orel Hersheiser… It’s pretty safe to say that except for Guidry… in his own class… Blyleven is the very best pitcher still remaining, and overall volume of work puts Blyleven as the most dominating pitcher in the game’s history not in the hall of fame. 60 shutouts, almost 4000K’s… and he was a consistant winner on terrible to mediocre teams for most of his career… still gets 2 rings… Bert belongs…
Plus unlike Sutton who stuck around for 8 years too long, and Morris who if anyone remembers his year in Cleveland who stuck around after his arm damn near fell off… Bert left the game still pitching pretty solidly compared to the rest of the MLB pitchers.
Crede is washed up. The Twins have better players.
Crede ruined his back with a too big uppercut swing. Like a lot of guys.
Young players today need to learn to swing naturally.
That’s all you need to know about Crede.
Please, no more talk about the worthless Ty Wiggleham. Can’t field, and can’t hit a HR to LF in the dome. He needs one of the little pint sized playing fields like in Houston.
Again, great rhetorical tool, but it has nothing to do with the discussion of chemistry.
You asked me if it was truly chemistry that helped teams like the Rox and Rays…or if it was luck or talent.
Well, if it was talent, then that proves that money doesn’t equate to talent.
But what I can tell you is that the Rays and Rox did it without insane payrolls.
But we saw the Rox fall flat on their face in 2008 after being in the World Series.
And now the Rays will be out to prove that they weren’t a “fluke”.
sane, I believe you’ve forgotten my caveat of Buscher’s D.
Besides, nary a mention of the current Twins on tonight’s broadcast.
Thirdly, no one can take my fun Twins memories away.
Carl P didn’t take those with him as well.
Couple notes from MLB trade rumors:
minor-league deals with the White Sox: …catchers Corky Miller and Chris Stewart; outfielders Josh Kroeger and Michael Restovich;…
Anybody there look familiar?
Also, Hardy signs a one-year deal with the Brewers. (4.75 mil)
Now the Twins can possibly wait a year and get Hardy without selling the farm.
I am one that would take a look at Crede but only for one year. Make him prove it plus it limits Boras commish. But I still don’t get why the Twins don’t make the move for Michael Young. I am sure the Rangers would pay some of that salary for the right deal. How about Boof and Blackburn for Young and the Rangers pick up 31M of the 62M left. Let him play SS and you have LNP,HArris, and Buscher for 3B
Hmmmm.
Possible Kubel contract extension?
