Thursday morning briefing - Is Joe Crede a real option now?
Posted on January 22nd, 2009 – 10:33 AMBy La Velle
Third baseman Joe Crede has arrived in Arizona and is set to work out for scouts sometime next week. The Twins are expected to be in attendance.
Why?
1. They have been in contact with Crede’s agent, Scott Boras.
2. Crede is willing to sign a one-year deal.
3. Crede, by all indications, is healthy.
Someone with knowledge of the situation told me that Crede thinks he’s finally licked the back problems that have limited him to 144 games over the previous two seasons. The main problem was a nerve issue in his back that was finally corrected with minor surgery after the season.
Crede’s back apparenty is fine - but he’s going to have to convince people in a hurry that he’s worth signing.
I will point out that one Boras client who was believed to be broken down but ended up producing was this man. The only thing that slowed him that year was a sports hernia.
The Giants reportedly have interest in Crede as well. The Rangers were linked to Crede earlier in the offseason but apparently will move Michael Young to third. Stay tuned on this one….
Eric Gagne update: The Twins have been swapping offers with Boras about reliever Eric Gagne too. Heard a couple days ago that things were heating up, then heard yesterday that things weren’t so hot. But there has been plenty of dialouge and it appears that Gagne remains on the Twins radar. So is Brando Lyon, but he might have a chance to close elsewhere.
Russ Springer??????: Seth Stohs, who offers prolific coverage of Twins prospects, has heard that the Twins are interested in Russ Springer. More power to Seth because I’ve checked and the Twins have shown interest.
But Springer doesn’t solve their problems. He’s put up nice numbers the past two seasons but he’s a seventh-inning, one-or-two-batter guy and the Twins need eighth inning help. That’s why I skipped his name on the list of relievers. Gagne appears to be a better option.
Reporter update: This might be the only post of the day. The Diamond Awards banquet is tonight and there’s a rehearsal this afternoon. If there’s major breaking news, Joe C. will handle it. That’s right, Joe C. is baaack!!
474 Responses to "Thursday morning briefing - Is Joe Crede a real option now?"
Bring on Crede and Gagne
Win Twins!
Seth & the guys at overthebaggy are on the right track I believe. With Rick helping, Springer could fit in well in the pen.
Crede- if he’s good to go, I don’t see why not take a shot.
The Twins should sign Crede ASAP. He’s fairly low risk, because they could likely get him for a reasonable price, and if he doesn’t work out, they can fall back on their current Harris/Buscher plan. If he does pan out, he’d be light years better than H/B.
THANK YOU!!!LaVelle I’ve been wondering when some real info about Crede’s health was going to be mentioned. Bringing this guy for a 1 year contract would be the best thing the Twins could do! We have talented relievers in the minors. We have no one close in the minors to play third. It’s very likely that “I play really hard but get very little results”nick punto will flop, get injured, or both. Then we’ll need Harris at SS. A Crede/Buscher platoon at third with Harris at SS and all the sudden we look like a real offensive team.
LaVelle,
Boston fans seem to think that Joe Mauer is going to be hitting free angency and signing with them. They seem to think since we let Hunter walk and traded Santana we don’t have the money to sign Mauer. When do you see the Twins and Mauer getting something done in terms of an multi year extension.
Finally a few good posters here now.
Crede low risk high reward.
Better offense even when limited hurt.
Better defense.
one year deal and option.
Draft choice if produces and walks away.
Creates another diversion for rivalry with WhiteSox and Twins!
power, defense and fits the Twins!
Win Twins!
Gagne will not be a viable 8th inning option. Give me Crain any day.
I’m not sold on Gagne, Lyon would be nice…but with Nathan as the closer for a while the Twins are going to probably have to pay more than normal to convince him to “swap” roles.
As far as Crede goes. I’d rather see them work out something to get that other Boras 3B over here…because let’s say Crede works out in 2009. Okay, so now what? Do you think that Boras will be willing to sit down with the Twins and talk more contract? Or will he simply say “Thanks for the free advertising” and go sign some excessive back breaking contract with another team?
Do the Twins have anybody in the system that could take over 3B opening day at Target Field? It just seems like more of the same “revolving door” stop gaps…at a position of much deeper need.
There’s no question they should bring Crede in!! Sign him before the work-out and everyone else sees he’s healthy…..well, maybe I got ahead of myself, but I would love it if they signed him!
Lets take a shot on Crede and Springer. fill in from inside the organization for elsewhere. or maybe offer Boras a 2 player (Gagne/Crede) discount.
They should only sign Crede if he’s not too expensive. Definitely not for more than $4 mil. As for 2010, it’s quite likely that either Hughes or Valencia will be ready.
So let’s say the Twins get Crede. That means Buscher goes to the Minors? (Harris is IMHO far more valuable than Buscher defensively at 3B and as a MIF…though only in emergencies)
What would the lineup look like?
Span
Mauer
Cuddyer
Morneau
Crede
Kubel
Young
Punto
Casilla
???
If Crede is truely healthy, forget Valencia or Hughes, this guy is a stud.
Crede with a player option for 2010.
going to grass.
Win Twins!
I wonder why there hasnt been any talk about someone like Orlando Hudson or even Dan Uggla if he becomes available. All along, they talked about Punto playing SS or 3B depending on what they could find in the free agent market… Why not get O-Dog for $7M per year, 2 year contract, option for a third; move Casilla to SS and Punto to 3B. Its a lot easier these days to find a good 2B option in trade or free agency than a 3B from what it sounds like.
Also, should the Twins have interest in Beimal? He put up 3 pretty good years (since leaving the Twins) and could be a nice bullpen arm. Or is it that he is a lefty and Gardy thinks a lefty can only pitch to a lefty? He faced more rightys than leftys last season and had nearly identical stats
Solid lineup T..
plus, why would Crede not want to come to Minnesota…..
Win Twins!
Greg: I dunno if a player option is what you’d want to do with a guy who’s had injury concerns.
If he struggles in 2009, he just exercises his option and the Twins are stuck with him.
Is there such a thing as a “mutual” option. Where either Crede or the Twins can opt not to renew for 2010? That would give the Twins an out if Crede struggles, and give Crede an out if he wishes to try his luck on the market for more money.
What strange times we live in…The two guys the Twins are currently linked to are Boras guys.
I guess it’s safe to say that the Twins are not going to sign Lyon. I’ve come across that there is some mutual interest with the Tigers who would make him a closer.
I would be fine with Crede for sure. Although, would he want to play with the Twins on the turf during his year of emergence I wonder??
I guess beggers can’t be choosers.
Yeah, give him an option for 2010, or if he really is healthy, sign him for two years.
take a shot at crede, he puts up good power numbers when healthy and has had good success in the metrodome, 1 yr contract and throw in an option for a 2nd
I should add the bench I suppose:
Redmond (C)
Harris (1B/3B, emergency MIF)
Gomez (OF)
Those three off the bench aren’t bad options. And there’s still a couple of spots left if I have my counts right. So a guy like Tolbert maybe?
I’d like to think that if things go as the Twins would like to see, the lineup could evolve into something like the folowing…
Span
Mauer
Young/Cuddyer
Morneau
Cuddyer/Young
Kubel
Crede
Punto
Casilla
The Twins got lucky with three lefties in a row in 2008, but they have the potential talent to avoid that situation. Yeah you’re looking at having two “contract guys” hitting low in the order, but I still think Young has the potential to be a solid #3, with Mauer and Morneau being the support he needs to see better pitching.
Once that happens, you don’t have to rely on Crede as much to protect Morneau, as you hope that either Young or Cuddyer can get the job done.
I guess I’ve come to the point where I would be satisfied with anyone who isn’t named Buscher. I still don’t get all the love for Crede. His career OPS+ is only 92 and I don’t think he’s that spectacular of a defender. I could live with him as the Twins 3b, but he’s far from being a “stud.”
Boras may agree to 2 years, but he’ll want guaranteed money (see, Jones, Andruw). As I was saying on an earlier post, Crede makes me nervous a la Cirillo, Batista, and Lamb. Greg pointed out Crede is a proven HR threat. So was Batista. So was RonDL, who was supposedly healthy. Some guys simply age faster, and I think Crede is just one of those guys. I’m with T on this one. I don’t like these stop gap measures on the cheap. They seldom work out. Actually, when was the last one that worked out for the Twins? Seriously. There must be somebody. Chili Davis? I must be forgetting someone.
T, there are mutual options, club options, and player options. If an option was involved (something I don’t think Boras would go for), I’m sure it would be a player option or, at worst for him, a mutual option.
Career: Batting | Fielding
SEASON TEAM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
2000 CWS 7 14 2 5 1 0 0 3 0 3 0 0 .357 .333 .429 .762
2001 CWS 17 50 1 11 1 1 0 7 3 11 1 0 .220 .273 .280 .553
2002 CWS 53 200 28 57 10 0 12 35 8 40 0 2 .285 .311 .515 .826
2003 CWS 151 536 68 140 31 2 19 75 32 75 1 1 .261 .308 .433 .741
2004 CWS 144 490 67 117 25 0 21 69 34 81 1 2 .239 .299 .418 .717
2005 CWS 132 432 54 109 21 0 22 62 25 66 1 1 .252 .303 .454 .757
2006 CWS 150 544 76 154 31 0 30 94 28 58 0 2 .283 .323 .506 .829
2007 CWS 47 167 13 36 5 0 4 22 10 24 0 1 .216 .258 .317 .575
2008 CWS 97 335 41 83 18 1 17 55 30 45 0 3 .248 .314 .460 .774
Total — 798 2768 350 712 143 4 125 422 170 403 4 12 .257 .306 .447 .753
Seasonal Averages (per 162 games played)
YEARS G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
4.93 162 562 71 145 29 1 25 86 35 82 1 2 .257 .306 .447 .753
I’m with you saam….Wiggy is my guy, but I’m down with anyone not named Buscher as well…Although his high throws into the front row seats are always entertaining.
If the Twins do get Crede, they’ll really have to work with him during spring training to turn him into a slap hitter.
Career: Batting | Fielding
SEASON TEAM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
2002 NYM 46 116 18 35 8 0 6 18 8 19 2 1 .302 .354 .526 .880
2003 NYM 156 573 73 146 36 6 11 71 46 124 12 2 .255 .318 .396 .714
2004 NYM 86 312 46 89 23 2 12 42 23 48 6 1 .285 .334 .487 .821
2004 Pit 58 182 17 40 7 0 5 24 22 34 1 0 .220 .306 .341 .647
2005 Pit 57 155 20 40 9 1 7 25 14 30 0 1 .258 .324 .465 .789
2006 TB 122 444 55 122 25 1 24 79 32 97 4 3 .275 .330 .498 .828
2007 Hou 50 169 24 48 12 0 6 18 13 40 2 0 .284 .342 .462 .804
2007 TB 98 378 47 104 21 0 16 49 28 73 1 4 .275 .329 .458 .787
2008 Hou 111 386 50 110 22 1 23 58 32 69 4 6 .285 .350 .526 .876
Total — 784 2715 350 734 163 11 110 384 218 534 32 18 .270 .330 .460 .790
Seasonal Averages (per 162 games played)
YEARS G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
4.84 162 561 72 152 34 2 23 79 45 110 7 4 .270 .330 .460 .790
My vote’s for Wiggington, but Bill Smith doesn’t count my votes.
Greg - thanks for copy-pasting what all of us could look up on our own >_<
i like your lineup T except Cuddy really isnt a 3 - Young is more the average guy with pop potential that fits there (ala Mauer). But Mauer was born to be the 2nd guy in the lineup.
Boneyard,
Crede is 30 years-old. (will turn 31 in April)
RonDL, Cirillo and Batista were already crapping dust when the Twins signed them.
Crede in 2006(his last healthy year)
.283 30-94.
If he is not a stud, the Twins have only two.
If Joe Crede is healthy, and can play defense, he is the ideal placeholder until 2010 for the Twins.
He is an outdoorsman, he would enjoy Minnesota. S Boras is also his agent.
On wiggy - makes too much sense but is expensive by our FO terms. my problem with the FO is not that they aren’t wiling to move on Wiggy - when at this point could be had for Blake’s deal since he’s had 0 interest which is frustrating to say the least - its that they are banking on guys like Valencia or Buscher to be the long term options at 3b when neither has proven to do more than one thing well. Valencia from what I’ve read has a nice glove, but his bat leaves much to be desired. Buscher is atrocious in the field but can hit righties well (whoopdedo, so can the rest of the lineup).
Having a guy like Wiggy or even Crede can provide at least average defense and well above average right-handed power which is what this team has needed for so long.
vs RHP
1. span cf
2. kubel dh
3. mauer c
4. morneau 1b
5. young lf
6. buscher/crede 3b
7. cuddy rf
8. punto/harris ss
9. casilla 2b
vs LHP
1. gomez cf - PH kubel
2. span lf
3. redmond/ mauer c
4. morneau 1b
5. young dh
6. crede 3b
7. cuddy rf
8. harris ss
9. casilla 2b
medschoolmat.
why not the reference and comparison in front of you then looking up.
Some appreciation!
Crede is low-risk like Lamb was low-risk. If the Twins hadn’t wasted time cleaning out the junk, they would have won the division easily last year. I still say, go get Beltre.
Eric Gagne I like. He was an outstanding relief pitcher the second half of last year.
Wiggy’s defense at 3B does not compare to a healthy Crede’s.
plus, Cirilo wasn’t brought in for HR power as I recall.
Win Twins!
I want to see Crede in a Twins uniform so he could do a “Frank Thomas” when he faces the White Sox for the first time.
Plus it would shut up the lovely Sox fans I work with!
sane, I know Crede is chronologically younger than the aforementioned. However, as I noted, 31 isn’t the same for everyone. Andruw Jones, for instance. If memory serves, Batista was only 2 years removed from 32 dingers. RonDL wasn’t that far removed from 28 HR. If we sign Crede, I’ll be one of the biggest Crede fans on the planet and desparately hoping he succeeds. I’m just saying that given his, and the Twins’s, recent history, this doesn’t look like a recipe for success.
Greg
did not mean to sound harsh; would just have rather had you copy/paste the link instead with your analysis. its more fun to see opinions than just a boxscore
thanks for doing it nonetheless
Boneyard,
I understand, but if all future transactions have to be tempered by the Twins “recent history”, then there will never be another major leaguer acquired.
I’m coming around a bit on Crede, but let’s be a wee bit careful there LEN about using him in the same story with Maggs - his numbers were insane for 5 years before getting hurt. Crede, not so much. But better than what we have now, sure.
I’d like to see Crede at 3B for the Twins, if he’s healthy, but I guess I’m not overly optimistic. If his workout goes well, the Giants will be in on him and we know the Twins won’t get involved in a bidding war (see: Blake, Casey).
I also see no way Lyon comes to Minnesota unless Detroit surprises me and goes another direction for a closer. Lyon wants to go where he can close, and you can’t blame him. That’s where he’ll establish more value for the next contract.
I’m open to giving Gagne an opportunity in Spring Training to compete with Crain and others for the set up role. None of the existing pen members have proven they deserve to be handed the job without competing for it.
As I’ve said before, it is good to see the Twins actively negotiating with Boras for a couple of his clients, even if they would just be one-year stopgaps.
interesting thought, how long would it take vavra to turn crede into a slap hitter?
full stats on both!
not boxscores. LOL…..
Sane - i meant at least average with Wiggy, much better with Crede. It was more of an implied thing.
and one issue with comparing Crede with Lamb - Lamb was given 2 years guaranteed and not one, and Crede has had much more success in his career (at least has had bigger years when he was successful)
Hunter, Morneau, or Kubel aren”t slap hitters
BTW, conditioning is an additional factor to “aging”.
And a new Andruw Jones is supposedly going to return to his Glory Years this season.
greg - semantics…
Isn’t Springer a Type “A” free agent??
Shaun:
Something would actually shut up a Sox fan? I doubt that. As much as I hate the Sox, I’ve always liked an admired Crede. He would be a great fit for the Twins. I said we should get him even if his back isn’t 100%. Now it sounds like he’s healthy.
Only considering offense, I don’t trust Crede to produce more than a Harris/Buscher platoon. In fact, I think it’s likely he’ll be a noticeable downgrade. That’s a pretty terrible career OBP.
If Crede can manage to stay healthy, and all other factors remain the same (seeing as how we won’t have the dead weight of a recovering Liriano, slumping Lamb and Everett, hurrendous performances of Bass, Rincon, Gurrier, and even Senor Smoke free) and Morneau is actually given a day off, we’ll definitely have a shot at the playoffs
sane, the Twins have no recent history with signing a free agent in his prime and without significant question marks attached. I just think the club should be learning from its past mistakes.
offpudding,
Have you ever watched Buscher play 3B?
A healthy Crede is an upgrade over the “duo” due to his right-handed pop upside and versatility throughout the batting order (5, 6, 7 spot potential)
ES16: sure, and it leaves a lot to be desired, but I was talking only about offense.
Btw, Crede has on year of 30 HR and 2 of 20 or better. Not quite the established basher he’s touted to be. On the other hand, when he played last year, he did hit 1 HR every 20 AB. Hmmm. I’m still nervous.
I don’t think there is any comparison between Wiggy and Crede, Crede is far superior. Better defense and more consistent offense. Most teams aren’t even looking at Wiggy as a 3B. With him, you are piecing together part years to get a full year’s stats. There’s a reason he’s never caught on as a full time 3B (much like Lamb).
Springer is a “B” FA.
CreDL scares me but scares me less than the alternative (Buscher starting 100+ games)
as a matter of fact Gagne and Crede are very similar: last good year before the Mitchell report and the last 2 years hurt and ineffective (Crede has a .774 OPS last year and a Puntonian .675 the year before)
Gagne had a decent 2nd half on paper 3.52 ERA, 1.1 WHIP, .205 OPP BA (but also a .210 BABIP and in the NL)
Given the roster situation, Gagne will not be free. A Gagne signing (as a matter of fact a signing for any reliever) would be equivalent to a trade for Humber and Jones (who will not make the team if a reliever is signed) plus free agent money. I prefer the internal options in the pen. Last year other than Guerrier and the non-returnees minus Reyes, the pen was fine.
We’ll see how it works out…
I’m a Red Sox fan and I watched Gagne coming to a game and blow it. Not once but every time. Lets just say that every time he came I knew that unless the score was high he would blew the game. If I was the Twins I wouldn’t even offer him one year.The reason why he was good before it was because he was on steroids. After he stopped taking them he was washed. If the twins sign him be prepared for a lot of heartache. One of the posters mentioned about Mauer going to the Red Sox. I dont see that happening.The Yankees are going to go after him and give him anything he wants. If I was the Twins GM i would be starting talking to him very soon for a long contract. Otherwise he will be a Yankee.
T - I would put Crede in the 3 hole between Mauer and Morneau. Hit Young after Morneau then Kubel, Cuddyer, Punto, Cassilla.
At best Crede is going to hit .280 so having Morneau behind him will give him pitches to hit.
Springer IS a type A free agent, but since the Cardinals did not offer him arbitration the Twins would not lose a draft pick for taking him.
Crede will be a big upgrade over Bucsher. I figure Crede will avg allowing about .75 less hits per game.
What concerns me was the White Sox would have loved to have a healthy Crede. They looked and said no thanks.
I’ve also heard somewhere along the line that Crede is good buddies with Mauer and Morneau. For what that’s worth (little).
thry, you just put your finger on the real problem at 3B, imo. That is Bsucehr, the, um, lesser defensive player, will get the lion’s share of the playing time in a platoon situation. I would actually feel better about 3B if Harris was given the job outright. Maybe he will earn it outright if the club dosn’t sign anyone in the offseason.
Boneyard
hsi homeruns are more than anyone else in the spot since koskie left.
Beltre would be a fine add, just don’t think they canget him from the Mariners with out forgoing the player trades.
Crede is a solid add.
correct me in the spring or summer if he fails.
Win Twins!
I don’t think that Buscher would get the majority of platoon starts.
Gardy is EXTREMELY adverse to bad defense, so Buscher would get fewer and fewer starts, until the platoon was discontinued.
True, Greg, but then again, my sister could have hit more HR than anyone we’ve had at the position since Koskie. Like I said, if the Twins sign Crede, I will be a big fan and happily eat crow if I am wrong.
Sane
he’ll get starts because a) Gardy still likes him despite his poor defense, and b) he hits righthanders well, which is the majority of what the team sees and c) he has it in for Harris for some reason
Boneyard
is your sister available? I am sure Smith would consider an ST invitation
I was originally leery of Crede, but he is an exceptional defender, and at least an average hitter–low OBP, but decent SLG. In 2006 he produced $14 million in value, and even in a partial season last year, $8million. If we could get him for a 1-year, $5/6million contract, (maybe less?), I’d be up for it. Poor man’s Beltre, sounds like to me–cheaper, and doesn’t cost players in return. Could easily add 2 wins over our current platoon.
I was going to say, Gardy might take time away from Buscher because of his defense, but Harris is in the doghouse.
I don’t think there is any comparison between Wiggy and Crede, Crede is far superior. Better defense and more consistent offense.
Career numbers:
Hitting:
Crede: .257/.306/.447 OPS+ 93 isoP .190
Wigginton: .270/.330/.460 OPS+ 105 isoP .190
Advantage Wigginton
Fielding (3B):
Crede: .963 FP (2008: .930, 2007: .971)
RZR: 2008: .729 2007: .829
Wigginton: .951 FP (2008: .969, 2007: .961)
RZR 2008 .732 2007: .710
Advantage Crede
Wigginton has been improving at 3B the more he plays the position.
As far as the Twins’ FO statement that he is bad at the field, a comparison of Wigginton’s fielding numbers with those of Buscher’s (2008: .938 FP .638 RZR, 2007: .923 FP .512 RZR) makes it sound more and more like sour grapes.
I don’t think that an infielder’s health is impacted as much as an outfielder when it comes to playing on turf. I think that a healthy Joe Crede would be a great addition to our lineup plus he killed us at the Metrodome so we know he hits well there. I am sure it will just come down to dollars guaranteed to him. The only player that we have close in the minors at 3rd is Valencia and judging by his Arizona fall league numbers he is not nearly ready.
OK boneyard. Just another smart*** here
Win Twins!
I agree on Harris. Breslow is another guy Gardy won’t seem to give a fair chance.
sane…I don’t agree with Buscher getting less starts than Harris in the dynamic “platoon.”
From what I recall, wasn’t Harris in the doghouse most of the second half of last year???
msm,
I disagree with a) and c).
Gardy will like Buscher less and less because his defense will not improve as Gardy has hoped.
Last year Harris failed defensively at 2B and SS.
That cost him Gardy’s confidence.
If Buscher’s defense at 3B continues to be worse than Harris’s, Gardy will like Harris more and more.
Thry - those sour grapes being that they don’t want to pay millions for ‘bad defense’ when they’ve already got it for the major league minimum
I wouldn’t think of him as a power threat, though–his HR may not top 15 moving to the metrodome. His defense is the upgrade.
Harris was in the doghouse once it was determined he didn’t play 2B well.
He did OK at shortstop but was benched in favor of Punto, and then saw time as the weak end of a platoon at 3B and a couple innings backing up 1B.
Considering how much Harris has bounced around, I wonder if he isn’t just a malcontent.
sane
great points; i want to believe you but Gardy is too much into the ‘favorites’ as in Punto - guy seemed to have cost us as many games as he helped us in, yet he always gets the vote over someone else.
Harris was decent in the field at 2B and below average at SS (besides, Punto makes most players look bad at SS and Casilla is one of the better 2B’s around), i wouldn’t call it a failure; and he was nowhere near as bad as Buscher was at 3B (who still got Ab’s down the home stretch despite his poor defense).
I don’t think that Buscher would get the majority of platoon starts.
You know, you might be right here.
2008 starts at 3B when only one of them was in the lineup (i.e. when Harris was not SS or 2B):
Buscher: 32, Harris: 28
for a full season, this projects to 87 Buscher, 79 Harris.
Not 100, but 87 still is too many. I just can think Buscher should start more than 30-40 (if any) in this league
Harris was in Gardy’s doghouse because of defense ONLY.
Buscher’s (lack of) defense would get Harris an early release from that doghouse if they were platooned at 3B.
Buscher would then move in to Harris’s old quarters.
Being a combination Twins/White Sox fan, I would love to see Crede in a Twins uniform. The White Sox were my first love, before the Senators moved to Minnesota. Now that I live in Illinois, I follow them again, although the Twins will always be number 1 in my heart.
I don’t understand why it’d take 5-6mill to sign him (besides the fact that he’s a FA and Boras is his agent). His biggest year was 5.1 mill and that was last year on the tail end of his first big contract.
He has a lot to prove, and he should be able to be had for a 1+1 at maybe 3/year with incentives (so much for 300, 400, 500 AB’s, HR’s, etc).
Why not just get a new dog? Like Crede.
Crede brings baggage. Not just a bad back, but Scott Boras. I’m all for giving it a shot, though. If he doesn’t pan out, at least we would have given him a shot. It’s a far cry from Batista.
medschoolmatt,
Wigginton is average defensively and very good with the bat. Buscher is horrid defensively and below average with the bat. That .512 RZR he put in 2007 is practically the number a hockey goalpost would have as a major league third baseman.
msm,
If you think Harris was “decent” at 2B, you apparently have favorites also.
IMO, Harris was brutal at 2B.
He broke up more DP’s than the baserunner at 1B.
Thry
Well said - I bet we could get the hockey post for cheap too
RemRamos:
How is one a “combination Twins/WSox fan”? It’s not quite as bad a being both a Twins and Yankees fan, but close. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mind cheering the WSox against the coastal teams, but the “combination” fan sounds funny.
WJ,
I am all for buying a new dog also.
But make sure the hitting coaches don’t “fix” the new dog.
Sane
My apologies - i meant decent at SS, and below average at 2B; even so, looking at his stats, they werent a huge dropoff at 2B except for the DP’s
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=6022&context=fielding
After a HS baseball game my coach pulled me aside and said “Walter, I’m going to replace you at third with a big old fence post” I said “Why?”. Coach said “It will have a better chance of knocking down some balls, and at least it won’t jump out of the way.”
Sign him and let the chips fall where they may.
msm, thrylo98,
To repeat my opinion ad nauseum:
Fielding metrics are CRAP!!!!
I can’t be convinced of anything by the use of fielding metrics.
I don’t object to anyone presenting them to people that believe in them - but I’m just not one of those people.
medschool, unfortunately, my sister has 3 kids and hasn’t picked up her glove in almost 15 years. She’s not the answer, although she still could probably play better D than Buscher.
I don’t know if you guys are trying to put your own spin on our line-up or if you just haven’t paid attention to what worked last year and what Gardy’s tendencies are for the batting order but this is more realistic than any “potential line-up” I’ve seen on this blog today.
1.Span LF
2.Casilla 2B
3.Mauer C
4.Morneau 1B
5.Cruddy RF
6.Kubel DH
7.Crede 3B
8.Punto SS
9.Gomez CF
The line-up I’D LIKE TO SEE
1.Span LF
2.Mauer C
3.Kubel DH
4.Morneau 1B
5.Crede 3B
6.Casilla 2B
7.Young RF
8.Harris SS
9.Gomez CF
If Crede does come in it’s more likely one of the fringe infielders lose their job. Maybe Tolbert or Macri.
IMHO the problem with Harris is bizzarre footwork at 2B, suprisingly good footwork but not near enough range at SS and not strong enough for “prototypical” numbers at 3B. Maybe destined for only utility IF. The only thing he can really improve without steroids is 2B footwork. I was shocked at how bad it was. And the fact that they gave up too easily in correcting that problem.
sane, do you agree?
For those of you (including you LaVelle) pining for Gagne, take a look.
http://www.overthebaggy.blogspot.com/
Scary.
Boneyard
so take a flier on (insert name here) would even apply to your sister 
Sane
you believe what you want. the metrics are objective whereas your views are not. ’tis why we use them
WJ,
If your real name is Walter Johnson, your HS coach should have been fired for playing you at 3B!
Go Pitch!
As Bert will tell you, pitcher is the best athlete on the team. We often play third when not on the mound.
Paul,
“And the fact that they gave up too easily in correcting that problem.
sane, do you agree?”
The Twins couldn’t afford to lose games waiting for the problem to be corrected.
That is an off-season project that possibly can be accomplished now.
it may be best to wait until the best possible players for the least amount of money come knocking with a guaranty that everything will work out perfect!!
sane,
revised zone rating is actually a very good metric. Here is how it works:
the field is broken down in zones
(picture of the zones: http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/szymborski/zrgrid.jpg)
each player has responsibility for several zones. A third baseman has responsibility only for zones C, D, E, F. The RZR is the percentage of all the balls batter within his zones of responsibility he turns into outs. For infielders only ground balls (no fly balls and line drives) count.
In 2007 Buscher turned only about half of them in out, thus the hockey goalpost remark. (If you put a hockey goal post at third will cover zones D and E and make half the plays)
What do you find wrong with this metric?
msm,
IMO, fielding metrics may be objective, but its arbitrary and random and doesn’t measure correctly defensive skill or performance.
Coin flipping is also objective.
But, like I said, I don’t object to other people using them.
Just don’t be surprised if I ignore them in favor of visual evaluation.
sane,
You’re right.
It would make him much more valuable if he could play 2B. I hope they try and address this in ST.
Casilla would move to SS then and Punto would go where? 3B? He’s not going to miss out on a start as long as Gardy manages.
Shazel - Why would you hit Young 7th if you have him in the line-up. Its certainly not for his defense.
And if you want to put a realistic line-up out there you should probably exclude Crede. I don’t see the Twins pulling the trigger on him.
Concerning fielding stats. I think they can be very useful in aiding player evaluation. But there is no substitute for actually seeing the “grace” a player moves with.
Wiggington’s defense is not any better than the Butchers. He may have less range if thats possible.
HELLO all you people who don’t like Crede because Boras is his agent, remember this is also Gomez’s agent. We can’t just bury our head in the sand and never deal with Boras. The guy is a businessman who is taking advantage of stupid teams that have way too much money to spend. Just because the Twins Org. isn’t stupid enough to be buffaloed buy this prima donna is no reason to shun the players which he represents.
medschoolmatt,
I meant his value as a utility backup.
thrylos,
“What do you find wrong with this metric?”
Does it account for:
1) Field conditions?
2) Fielder positioning due to game situation?
3) Fielder positioning due to faulty scouting report?
4) Fielder positioning to cover for a slow fielder in an adjacent zone?
5) Fielder out of position because his pitching staff can’t locate their pitches?
6) Bad hops - but not bad enough to influence the scorekeeper into ruling a hit - not an error?
7) Bad scorekeeping?
Bad first baseman, who can’t field low throws, so the thrower gets an error?
9) outfielder’s perfect throw hits the baserunner for a throwing error?
I think the Twins make a move on Crede.
I have Young batting 7th because it’s the second clean-up spot in the line up. I like Casilla to get on base and Young to move him around. Elementary my dear Mac.
Obviously my line up wouldn’t be the best we could do against lefties either.
medschoolmatt,
About Harris and 2B. I only meant it would be better for his value to the team as a utility backup there.
“Plus it would shut up the lovely Sox fans I work with!”
I call BS on this one! I’ve never heard of a Sox fan being able to hold a job.
SpineyNorman,
Nice!
Smiley face was unintentional.
Is there a special smilely face key?
sane–Jeter looks like an excellent defensive SS.
Paul,
I don’t have any idea how to (intentionally) type a smiley face.
AM,
Maybe Jeter IS an excellent defensive SS, and his metrics are lying.
He doesn’t look extraordinary to me, but his bad metrics don’t convince me that he is terrible, either.
sane, I’m guessing you have read this article?
http://www.billjamesonline.net/fieldingbible/jeter.asp
Defensive metrics are a work in progress, but they are getting more advanced, I believe.
The name is Buscher! At least spell it correctly.
If Ozzie Smith had average metrics, but I saw him (over and over) make plays that I KNOW that no one else could make:
The metrics are NOT GOING TO CONVINCE me that he was an average SS.
1-Span-RF
2-Castillo-2B
3-Mauer-C
4-Crede-3B
5-Morneau-1B
6-Kubel/Cuddyer-DH
7-Young-RF
8-Harris/Punto-SS
9-Gomez-CF
7-
AM,
I am not as close-minded as it appears.
Someday, fielding metrics may advance to the point where I will buy into them.
I’ve been saying all along that they should go after Crede. Not sold on Gagne though as I saw him blow many save opportunites with the Brewers and then the Red Sox. But if they can get him to sign a reasonable contract maybe he can resurrect his career?
sane,
I agree about Jeter. I think he moves really well but is somewhat handcuffed by his size, ala Ripkin. Maybe Newton was right about this inertia stuff.
sane–I’ve rarely found you to be close-minded in your postings here.
Vader - *cough(Casilla)*cough
AM,
Thanks.
The wiz was the best I ever saw in the field. Visquel was close. I was always ammazed that he would chose to field with his right hand not to show off or necessarily save time but just for economy of motion.
But sane, you really should read that Bill James article on Everett and Jeter I linked above. He takes a skeptical approach, and produces a very convincing argument.
Paul,
Paul,
Colon)
[…] Twins Insider – […]
As I have said from the start, Crede is the real and ONLY deal.
AM…
I read that article, and it’s mathmatical theory at it’s most mystical. In theory he is correct. In reality Bill James schmucked himself with that comparison because Adam Everett compared to Derek Jeter is a sad sad sad comparison. Both can field the ball… to various degrees of “average to good” Only one of the two ball players can hit the ball. That leaves the Tigers as the bottom feeder of the Division this year. Adam Everett last year made Nick Punto look like Barry Larkin!
Hey thanks Janet!
BC,
Everett had a bad wing all last year. We never got to see him at his best. He would’ve been as advertized if his shoulder was right.
Glaus is now out for 3 months - if the Twins want to make a move at 3B they better hustle.
Even at his best Everett is no better than Punto.
AM,
I just re-read the article.
I remember reading it (or a similar article) when the Twins acquired Adam Everett.
I am sure fielding metrics can separate the very good from the very bad. I don’t believe fielding metrics can separate two players nearly the same level.
In engineering test measurements, there are always uncertainties in the measurement.
There must also be uncertainties in fielding metrics, which I have never seen presented.
So one player’s ZR may be better than another player’s ZR, but the difference may be totally within measurement error.
So no conclusion should be made totally on the basis of the two ZR’s.
Paul,
I have been a baseball fan for over 30 years. I have see Adam Everett play a lot of times over that period… and I have seen others like him in Ivan DeJesus, Buddy Biancalana, Nick Punto, and the list goes on.
I will take a guy that is decent in the field, that can hit the ball at the top of the lineup under pressure and deliver over a guy with a great glove, and no stick.
It’s one of the main reasons why I can’t stand Punto as a starting player for this team. It’s a dead spot in the lineup more often than not.
I love Bill James and have nearly all his books. However, just because one can devise a methodology for quanitifying athletic performance, that does not mean that the resulting measure is accurate or useful.
As Sane pointed out, there are all kinds factors (some of which may be unquantifiable) that either cannot or are not being considered using the RZR to evaluate defense.
Technology and computers allow us to create, store, and analyze all kinds of data that was never possible before. I understand the desire to create metrics that “evaluate” a players performance but as with any statistical measure, one must always apply judgement.
In my statistics class, I use a book published in 1954: “How To Lie With Statistics” (by Darrell Huff) to underscore the importance of understanding what is behind the numbers and how to use them. I also keep telling my SABREmetrician friends that what was true in 1954 is still true today!
BC,
We were talking fielding metrics.
Nobody wants Everett as a 2-way player over Jeter…..I don’t think.
Adam Everett had 1 maybe 2 years in the major leagues where he was an adequate bat even in the 8 spot in the NL (the worst hitters in the game bat 8th in the National League). He is not a bad guy to have on the team if you have a great hitter with a bad glove… replace him in the 7th-8th inning of a game… but Everett shouldn’t start anymore in his career. Just my opinion.
BC
I agree with you on the guy I would choose. It’s just that I’ve read a lot of criticism of Everett’s D and last year he was hurt. He couldn’t throw. He had to hurry his throws to make up for lost velocity. His balance was wrong. I don’t know if he will ever be right again. But when he was, IMHO, his mechanics were among the best I have ever seen.
Jim B,
Good points!
Sane…
I know you were talking about fielding metrics. And as I originally stated, I read that article a couple of years ago… and it was a bogus then as it is now. Judging good fielding has become much more scientific, and for that it’s fine, but there is nothing that is going to be better than watching a guy play… and Everett’s glove isn’t good enough to allow him to be a major league starting SS… even when he was at his best fielding…
That’s what I am saying… you guys are using the metric to try and justify a man’s career when that iffy metric is the only thing that could. It sure as heck isn’t going to be Everett’s ability to be a complete player.
Is there any sort of Minnesota based medicine we could shoot into Crede’s spine and make him better? Perhaps some derivative of ludifisk?
You can’t say anything bad about Everett’s career defense. But in the last 3 years he’s missed a lot of games due to injuries… injuries that have taken a toll on his ability, and his range, and his arm… he didn’t have a lot of ability, he had very good range, and a great arm… without those… he’s not even a bench player in the majors anymore. I just hope he has enough to be a bench guy… players and coaches seem to love the guy.
Sebastian…
Thank you… you made me smile… that is going to really screw with my image, lol.
BC
I’m just glad Houston did employ him so I could witness his playing. The joy I derive from baseball is mainly the appreciation of the “art”. SS and D was always my thing and I really enjoy watching the best in that aspect.
Jim B,
I understand your point but here is a bit of a counterpoint:
there are 2 types of statistics, descriptive statistics that analyze and describe data (in the case of baseball, they analyze and describe what happened in the field). This type of statistics deals with things that happened in the past. It deals with facts that are complex and tries to devise mathematical and objective representations of these complex facts and events. These statistical measurements as far as applied to baseball are from the hard to deny type since they describe a fact that already happened.
The other kind of statistics, is inferential statistics. That deals with using descriptive statistical analysis and other data to apply into an unknown situation utilizing devised formulae and trying to predict an outcome. Examples of use of these type of statistics outside of baseball is in populational-type studies (marketing, political polls, taste tests) that take data from a small sample and try to infer what a population as a whole would do. That is the type of statistics that is arguable and the predicted outcome is not always true (thus the lies and statistics part). In baseball, that kind of statistics include projections for a player’s or a team’s performance (Pecota etc)
apples and oranges.
There is no way that someone can argue that Mauer batted .328 last season, but it is arguable that he will bat .330 next season. But if that .330 projection comes based on some sort of a method is more believable than a number that comes out of someone’s gut feeling.
Most (if not all) of the arguments routinely used against advanced defensive measures can be applied to even the most basic of offensive statistics. So why then aren’t batting average, runs, RBI (etc, etc, etc) held to the same level of scrutiny?
snepp,
“So why then aren’t batting average, runs, RBI (etc, etc, etc) held to the same level of scrutiny?”
Many people here will tell you that OPS, OPS+, and OBP are valid and the stats that you listed are invalid.
“Same level” of scrutiny?
Maybe not.
But SOME level.
Fielding metrics are not as exact, IMO.
And FPA actually rewards lack of range in some cases.
I miss the days of the Mad Hungarian
I’m surprised the Twins haven’t offered Kent a contract being a has been and all. I hear the Twins are bringing the Metrodome “baggy” over to the new Target ballpark for good luck. 2009 Punto: 30 hrs, 30 steals 130 rbis. Bunt Nicky bunt!
slide Nicky, slide
thrylos,
I have read that Kubel is a hard-luck hitter.
All his bullets get caught.
The stats prove that his BA is his BA and it gives him no reward for hitting a caught line drive.
Other players (Punto?) hit parachutes which land on the grass for hits.
That’s where subjective visual evaluation comes in to augment the cold, hard stats.
I hope they sign both Crede and Gagne both are better signings then in rescent years.
Paul…
I apologize, my comments on Everett were not directed at you… simply my opinion about him as a complete player.
I appreciate great defense as well, but I believe in balance, and that Bill James article math mythology…
That being said… Everett was a very good fielding SS for a long time. I don’t see that being anything more than a long shot now.
As for the best SS I ever saw play… Omar Vizquel while he was with the Blue Jays. no one even close in my mind… him and Alomar could put on a show just by playing defense.
Sane…
THANK YOU FOR FINALLY SAYING WHAT I’VE BEEN UNABLE TO FIND THE RIGHT WORDS FOR!!!!!!
“That’s where subjective visual evaluation comes in to augment the cold, hard stats.”
it gives him no reward for hitting a caught line drive.
sane, baseball ain’t horse shoes 
last time I checked nobody gets credit for near home runs or near plays because they do not count where it matters (in the scoreboard)
that said, there are some advanced statistics that do take the near plays into consideration but are more of the predictive kind.
Predicted OPS (that one includes hard hit line drives that were recorded as outs and gives credit to hard-luck hitters). It describes exactly what you are asking for
As a matter of fact, Kubel’s prOPS last season was .823 while his actual OPS was .807, which means that he did have hard luck. Here are the prOPS values for the Twins in 2008 if interested:
Kubel’s BABIP over his career doesn’t really support him being a ‘hard-luck hitter.’ He has always hovered around the league-average .300 mark.
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=2161&position=DH/OF
Sign Crede to a semi cheap one year deal plus team option for second year, plus substantial incentives. Then go out and sign gagne to the exact same type of contract. Low risk, high reward type moves. Then at least the twins would save the offseason from being one of the worst ever.
JustinCB,
BABIP does not describe ‘luck’ for hitters, only for pitchers. The argument is that if a pitcher has a BABIP higher than .290-.300, it is likely that he will get better numbers in the future and vice-versa.
prOPS is a way to describe ‘luck’ or not for hitters
As stated earlier,wrap up Crede now before the workouts.Also as stated,get a in with Boras’s other 3b client.Boras is not about to parade Crede out there if he is damaged goods.He has his reputation to uphold.Take a gamble,life’s a gamble,anyway,the M&M boys could get hurt on the first 2 days of spring training.The yanks had a 3B problem,the were able to plug in A-Rod.Mid market teams don’t have that option.
Twins won’t sign anybody good. They must be past their prime and cheap. Derek Jeter will be on the Twins when he’s 50. We must appreciate the drama of the close games and 1-0 losses. You must assimilate and “tip your hat to them” (sarcasm). Anybody using the “tip your hat” phrase should be banned from the internet. Also, the “chickens come home to roost” one as well.
i understand casey stengel used the advanced “sop” (seat of the pants) model of statistics and the “oye” (open your eyes) method when he managed and he was fairly sucessful.
Sane
Also well said. great to have so many ‘great baseball minds’ as KFAN would put it
While Boras is clearly a jerk- I think people are misunderstanding his history. When he can’t get his clients a big long term deal, he prefers one year deals so they can perform and get back into the FA market. Kyle Lohse (2008) is a great example, the market starts hot last off season (Silva), then drops off without a comparible deal for Lohse. He takes a one year deal- then pitches well enough that when he re-enters the market, he gets a payday. It is not all that unlike how Boras deals with his players who are a year away from FA- turning down extentions for bigger paydays a year out.
And let not forget, the Twins have worked with Boras on a reclamation project before- Kenny Rodgers. So lets not act like this would be so out of the ordinary.
Get off your duffs and sign Crede and Gagne…Give us a sign, Please!
ggg,
Stengel was successful only with the Yankees… his Mets, Boston Braves and Brooklyn Dodger teams really sucked. Methinks that it was his players who made him a successful or non successful manager. There are actually quite a few anecdotes about Stengel during his years with the Amazings…
msm,
Thanks.
Sometimes “great baseball minds” can’t remember where they parked, or what car they were driving.
Sign Crede now! The guy can still play, is a better option at 3rd than Buscher or Harris and will be a good guy to have in the clubhouse.
Now let’s get a real shortstop like Cabrerra, leave Punto as a utility man filling in from time to time and sign Lyons for the pen. Then Smith will have at least done SOMETHING.
thylos98,
I’m no stats wizard by any means. Wasn’t all that familiar with prOPS…. just. so. many. statistics.
I realize that BABIP is typically used in reference to pitchers, but it still has relevance for hitters, although maybe to a lesser degree b/c a hitter has somewhat more control over where a ball is hit than a pitcher does. See below.
http://cyclonesnation.wordpress.com/2007/07/26/lowhigh-babip-hitters-really-luckyunlucky/
Bob - you can have Lyon and his >4 ERA. We have guys who can match or even beat that at much less compensation
and as long as Gardy is in charge, Punto will never be the super-sub he’s supposed to be and will always find his way into the lineup.
Bob,
“Now let’s get a real shortstop like Cabrerra”
“like Cabrera” is OK.
CABRERA himself?
Not so good.
if this team didn’t have its ss of the future in Punto, the only SS they should even consider is Hudson
Thanks LaVelle!
msm,
“Punto will never be the super-sub he’s supposed to be and will always find his way into the lineup.”
Is fatalism a good philosophy for a doctor?
Matt- I am just not a Gagne fan and I see him blowing up in the 8th and we never get to Nathan. He was awful last year and I find it hard to believe he can turn it all around over the winter without his Rincon juice.
I agree, Gardy will play Punto everyday, even if the guy hits .240. Damn shame…
Sane
Not so much as realism is
Bob
I never said I was a Gagne fan either; but if I had to choose between the 2, he’d be the lesser of 2 evils if not only for his contract. Sure, Lyon might be more ready, but will most likely come at a steep cost.
About Punto - I think he won’t bat .240, I can definitely see him repeating that .280 or so; my issue is his non-excistance in many situations with runners on, and the fact that he has so few RBI’s/HR’s with the amount of AB’s he has. plus he’s still as much of a headcase as ever and can’t wait to see him slide headfirst into 1b again…oh and don’t forget Morneau bailing him out on his crazy throws.
my point was for 100 years they played major league baseball without all these “advanced” stats and the game was the same one team won the other lost and the managers watched and then made decisions without a laptop in the dugout to help them. in many ways all these stats are just plain “silly”!
open your eyes watch the game, and stop making decisions based only on fancy stats and on the espn web gems which both tend to skew peoples perceptions of players.
also an aside
great article by Joe C. I’ll miss big sweat too
Seth i read your take on Russ Springer yesterday and I agree that he’s worth a look even if he is the RH version of Reyes.
medschoolmatt is Lexapro a good med for getting rid of Seasonal Affective Disorder
oh wow
one name that no one seems to mention is Matt Macri, who did a solid job for us when he was up here before his injury
whats the scouting report on him and would he have a shot at beating out the likes of Buscher (as Macri’s glove is solid from what I can remember).
Macri was horrbile after the Twins sent him back to Rochester.
Sun Lamps and Lexapro hmmmmmmm……
I am just intrigued by what the Twins will do with the overabundance of OF’s we will have at the start of the season
BC,
No apology necessary. I didn’t even consider that was directed at me personaly. I think you meant Cleveland for Vizquel. I’m with you on the sure artistry he possessed. But the wiz always seemed to have a little magic in play. That’s the only reason I would rank him above Omar.
ES - oh ok. he was more of a flash in the pan type guy. thats too bad
Jimmy - unfortunately I cannot give you advice since I am but a mere student in the 2nd year, but what I can tell you is that (if you haven’t been told this already) is that SAD can be treated quite well with simple lighting - lots of it. Drug therapy is also quite affective, although it does depend on the patient. I’ll paste a couple links below for your reading pleasure to inform yourself better (education is an awesome thing). I wish you luck (if it is you that is asking that is)
http://www.uptodate.com/online/content/topic.do?topicKey=psychiat/11689&selectedTitle=1~13&source=search_result
http://www.uptodate.com/online/content/topic.do?topicKey=pat_drug/74061&selectedTitle=2~77&source=search_result
Dave Concepton, Cal Ripken were the real deal
Honus Wagner was a good SS
Alan Trammell
jimmy bee,
They were both great players that’s for sure.
Hey, maybe you shouldn’t take medical advice from this blog. Nothing personal Matt.
jimmy,
Good anecdote bout Trammell. In Thurmon Munson’s book he talks about working real hard in spring training to improve his speed. He’s very proud of himself for the improvement he feels. Yanks are playing the Tigers in exhibition. He hits grounder to SS and feels great because Trammell beats him by just 1/2 step. Goes back to the dugout and comments to a teammate on his new speed. The teammate (I forget who) laughs and points out Trammell throws everyone out by 1/2 step. Munson observes and sure enough that’s what’s happening.
jimmy bee,
Honus Wagner? Come on. I owned that b*tch.
Ah my chuckle for the day.
Thanks Walter.
“Walter Johnson says:
January 22nd, 2009 at 4:05 pm
jimmy bee,
Honus Wagner? Come on. I owned that b*tch.”
Rag arm era pitcher’s didn’t own anyone
Take that sentence back!!
Sign Crede!
My bad. Sorry bout that Walter Johnson.
Joe Crede is the perfect Twins player.
The Joe Crede I remember is the perfect Twins player. Not so sure bout this guy.
The Twins are needy for Crede.
Scratch Lyon off your list. He is about to sign with Detroit.
looks like Lyon is signing with the Tiggers
Walter,
You’re on fire today.
Wow. Adam Everett, Juan Rincon and now Lyon. Glad the Twins didn’t go after him.
I guess I could see some team taking a flyer on Rincon, but not another Central team. Everyone’s figured the guy out. Plus Minnesota and Cleveland have the inside dope (pun intended) on him.
“According to Ken Rosenthal, the A’s, Twins, and Dodgers are pursuing Russ Springer. Rosenthal adds that the Twins prefer Springer to Eric Gagne”
Russ Springer just turned 40; however, the past two seasons he posted ERAs of 2.18 and 2.32.
Great story about Thurman Munson. I’m reminded of the story by Mickey Mantle who took Billy Martin and Whitey Ford ‘hunting’ where they pulled up along side of a field where cows were grazing and Billy and Whitey not being hunters had the truck stop so they could shoot them.
Paul… you are correct. I was on another page talking about why Jack Morris didn’t belong in the hall of fame… and that ended up going into a Roberto Alomar discusion… and I ended up mentioning Alomar and Vizquel as the greatest combo I’d ever seen, and obviously ended up biting off way more than I could chew. lol. Thank you for at least knowing what I meant.
vanvader,
Here’s one Mickey Mantle told on the old Johnny Carson show. Mickey and Whitey Ford used to hunt in the offseason on this particular farm in Texas. They thought Billy Martin would be fun to have along. Billy had never hunted before. They got down to the farm. Mickey and Whitey had Billy wait in the car while they went into the farmhouse to let their friend, the farmer, know they were here. After the normal greetings they asked the farmer how he was. The farmer said “Not too good.” Seems he had an old horse that had been with him for a long time that he had to put down. He didn’t have the heart and asked Mickey if he would do it for him. Mickey agreed to. On the way back to the car Mickey and Whitey decided to have a little fun with Billy. They told him that even though they’d been hunting this farm for years the SOB farmer wouldn’t let them hunt this year. They told Martin “We’re gonna fix that F cker though. We’re gonna shoot his horse.” Mickey shot the horse and before they could stop Martin he killed 2 cows.
I think Brandon Lyon will be a Detroit Tigers’ reliever by the weekend. He’s okay, not a huge “get”.
I’d take Eric Gagne over Jerry Springer any day. I cant believe for one minute Springer is available. He’s too busy with his TV show.
And Joe Crede over Harris/Buscher any day too….even with a sore back. Boras and the Twins? Can’t see it happening, but miracles do happen.
Getthe two Boras boys and we win the division…
Tigers must have offered Lyon the closer’s role he wanted. Hmm. Hopefully the Twins give the Tiggers a few chances to regret that agreement when they meet up this season.
no issues Paul. was just pasting some links to articles but my post is under moderation still. hope the trib doesnt kick me out 
kyle
and both of them will be on the DL when we do
Brandon Lyon as a closer isn’t going to kill the Tigers.
However, I think he would have done better as a setup guy.
he would have done better as a setup guy.
they just signed Scott Williamson to be the setup guy
Crede/Boras willing to accept a 1 yr deal? Sign him! Cuz if he really is healthy this will fill a huge need. Can’t believe that Boras would even talk to the Twins. Economy must be a lot worse than anyone thought.
thry
yeah that scott williamson is a stud; don’t be hatin’
msm,
no hating at all. Rookie of the year and all star back in ‘93, 6.62 ERA and 1.41 WHIP in the international league last season. Love the fact that Detroit signed him
I agree with MAC’s assessment of the batting order. Although, I think Cuddyer and Go Go should alternate with the nod to playing right field going to Go Go and then DH Cuddyer. Lets hope Go Go has made some progress over the off season. If he has, the Twins can’t afford to leave speed/power potential on the bench.
As far as Crede. I think most of us on here have admired Crede when when playing on the White Sox. He gives 110%, which is hallmark for a Twin. He fits the team like a glove and would simply be a great addition.
I like the fact that people are thinking that Buscher and Harris are both going to be on the team if Crede is signed. Whereas Harris can play more positions, Buscher has more experience at 1st base to back up Morneau, plus he is a lefty to offset the right handed bat of Crede, Harris might be looking for a new team if this deal is made.
The Twins won’t sign Crede. Instead, in order to keep costs down, I heard the Twins FO has been searching all over town for enough fabric to sew Ron Coomer a uniform.
Twins have three options here. 1) Do nothing which might not be the worst scenario. It’s reasonable to assume Harris and Buscher will be better in ‘09.
2) You don’t sign a player (Crede) until you’ve seen him play a bit. The guy had BACK surgery. Let’s see how it shakes out in AZ. If the Twins don’t make a move here, then look for them to talk to the Brewers about Hardy. That’s plan…
3). Sign Hardy for SS. Milwaukee just signed Fielder to a two year deal so now they have an idea of how much money they can take on to get pitching. (Remember, they don’t have any currently).
We get Hardy. Brewers get a cheap starter (in terms of payroll) from us and save the $4.65M due to Hardy, thus allowing them to go out and get more pitching.
Springer would be a good addition - as long as it’s not Jerry!!
Phantom:
Which of Liriano or Baker are you willing to begin a trade package with Milwaukee (to just fantasize for a thin moment that Milwaukee would actually want to trade Hardy)………because any trade begins with one of those two, and then we move into which of the Span/Casilla/Young trio you would be willing to part with.
Phantom,
Eight more days until your “Hardy will be a Twin…You heard it here first” fantasy falls flat.
I’ll bet you have a new moniker to disguise yourself picked out for January 30.
Why not get Joe Crede? His back will be fine and the Twins have Brian Buscher and/or Brendan Harris to fill in on long homestands. Put it this way: in a 3 game series, Joe Mauer gets 1 day off. The same can happen at third base to keep Crede healthy. It’s not like the guy is gonna play 162 games. Similarly, the addition of Brandon Lyon would really help. He should NEVER close, but he could be money in the 8th inning. Just think, last year the defending NL Champion Diamondbacks thought he was good enough to close. He didn’t fit that role, but the guy has as good of stuff as anyone in the Twins bullpen.
I think threee11 is right. We should see what the Marlins want for Uggla. Look at his numbers from last year. Crede has NEVER put up numbers that good.
Younger, under team control yet, and I read somewhere that his agent said he would look at playing 3B.
Marv,
“We should see what the Marlins want for Uggla. Look at his numbers from last year. Crede has NEVER put up numbers that good.”
Uggla2008 .260 32-92
Crede2006 .283 30-94
Look it up first.
Sy -
Uggla 2008 .260/.360/.514 OPS+ 128
Crede 2006 .283/.323/.506 OPS+ 107
I did.
Parting with either Liriano or Baker for Hardy would be ignorant. He’s special but both Liriano and Baker are legit #1’s for us or the Brewers.
Marv,
Good comeback.
Gagne sucks, that guy gets rocked consistently since he got busted for roids.
here’s the logic. crede offers a perfect solution to the twins problems at third. he can field and hit for power. his OPB struggles wouldn’t matter much because he would probably be hitting 7th if cuddyer is swinging like he can. if worse comes to worse and he gets hurt, they still have a cheap, adequate solution in buscher/harris. the twins have money to spend next year. it would only be a one year deal. it wouldn’t be much more than 5 million. it’s not my money. DO IT!
Chris– The Diamondbacks weren’t the defending NL champions, they were the West Champions but the Rockies were in the Series not the D’backs
If the Twins can get him for a low guaranteed contract with achievable incentives if Crede can stay healthy, they should offer two years or even more. But the incentives should be enough to allow Crede to make decent money if he produces.
I’m starting to get pumped!!
[…] do want to be sure to thank LaVelle E. Neal for mentioning this site yesterday as it pertains to my blog posting regarding the Twins interest […]
Seth! For crying out loud, go to bed!
What kind of a dweeb sits up at this hour going through baseball blogs.. uh, never mind.
Twins need crede try this line-up
span
castilla
mauer
morneau
crede
kubel
young
gomez
punto
trade cuddy and perkins for 3rd base power prospect for future. young needs to stay in lineup to get 20-25 homers and gomez energy lifts the team if he gets a little more plate disapline there is no stopping that kid
j says:
January 22nd, 2009 at 11:23 am
vs RHP
1. span cf
2. kubel dh
3. mauer c
4. morneau 1b
5. young lf
6. buscher/crede 3b
7. cuddy rf
8. punto/harris ss
9. casilla 2b
vs LHP
1. gomez cf - PH kubel
2. span lf
3. redmond/ mauer c
4. morneau 1b
5. young dh
6. crede 3b
7. cuddy rf
8. harris ss
9. casilla 2b
If you think that Kubel will EVER bat second, in ANY line-up, then you must be on crack…
Last time, I promise.
HEY LENIII!!!
Can you mention Anything to Anyone about the Wolves scoarboard being Incredibly small? (on TV)
Something should be done. When I watch the game, I can’t tell who’s winning…and lately it’s actually been the Wolves.
2008 at SS
Punto
G:61 E:8 FPCT: .973
Harris
G:55 E:6 FPCT: .976
Not that the position can only be graded by numbers, but I don’t understand when people speak of Harris like he’s a liability defensively. Are any of you watching the games? He’s solid. He makes every play.
I think we can get too caught up in this 7th,8th,even the closer mentality.If you get a big out in the 7th,it helps dictate your approach in 8th and a big out in the 8th helps dictate your approach in the 9th.You have to get 27 outs some outs are more important than others!
Hey Walter Johnson,
According to Rotoworld.com, Juan Rincon
has signed a minor league deal with the
Detroit Tigers.
According to mlb trade rumors site:
9:04pm: Ken Rosenthal heard from a major league source that Lyon’s close to a one year deal worth just under $5MM with the Tigers. The deal includes incentives.
I’m willing to give Bill Smith a rare benefit of the doubt in that it appears Lyon wants to be a closer, but it would be interesting to find out if the Twins were willing to give him a 2-year deal and if that would’ve changed anything.
In regards to Gagne or Springer, I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I would rather have Gagne.
And no thanks at all on Chad Cordero.
about the Punto vs Harris vs Tolbert at SS here is what Gardy said at the Winter Meetings in Vegas, before the Twins signed Punto, in an exclusive interview with scout.com:
Question: Who is the best shortstop on the roster at this point?
Gardenhire: Well, Brendan Harris is very consistent in catching the ball. His range is not as good as other guys. Tolbert is very young, kind of a good range guy and all of those things. A little erratic arm, but as a very young player. Still learning and probably the hardest worker.
We have talented people that can play, but none of them, you know, are as solid as Nick Punto out there playing every day and knowing what to do and knowing how to control the game from the shortstop, which is what I did. I ask my shortstop to do a lot, and that’s control the game. I want him to take charge in the infield and that’s why Nicky does a pretty good job for him, because he takes charge.
I think that this little piece is extremely telling on what Gardy feels about his players in that position. Knowing Gardy’s history as a player, the sentence in bold above made me laugh and really confirmed what a lot of people around here thought: Gardy sees Punto as his own second coming as a player. ‘Nough said
Which is funny, because supposedly Bartlett was kept in AAA going into 2006 because of issues with “taking charge”. And once he learned that he took over for Juan Castro.
Meanwhile Punto was playing 3B. Only going to SS (and then some 2B as well) in the latter part of 2007.
rayreiner - If I were the Brewers I’d have to give it some real thought if I were offered Slowey or Perkins with another quality AA or AAA prospect included.
I don’t see Bill trading Liriano or Baker, however, for some reason I think Liriano is going to underperform in ‘09 relative to expecations.
First of all… consider the source, but Hartman’s got this little diddy in his ‘jottings’ this morning: “The word is that length of contract is holding up the Twins’ signing of former White Sox third baseman Joe Crede and relief pitcher Eric Gagne.”
If that’s true and those guys want more than a year, I’d say let ‘em take a hike. If the hold up is over some sort of 2nd year option, maybe there’s some room to negotiate. But guaranteeing anything more than one year eliminates both of them, in my mind.
I’d say be more flexible with Crede on that, but Gagne has got to be a 1-year deal…PERIOD.
Funny how the Hartman blub completely contradicts what LaVelle has posted up there about Crede on board for signing a 1-year deal…
Maybe a team like the Giants have relayed that they would be open to signing him for a 2-year deal or something.
“The word is that length of contract is holding up the Twins’ signing of former White Sox third baseman Joe Crede and relief pitcher Eric Gagne.”
The Twins offered two weeks.
2 weeks?? I heard they offered a free 1-year membership into the Jelly of the Month Club.
No word yet on whether or not Crede likes jelly.
I don’t mind the whiter teeth girl, but Hugh Downs is really starting to annoy me.
thylos98: “Gardy sees Punto as his own second coming as a player.”
you have nailed it. i never have thought of it in exactly that way before, but it’s crystal clear now…same position(s), similar numbers…did Gardy regularly slide headfirst into first? we’re going to have to check the video on that.
Punto is a gamer. Great. I can appreciate that. But a gamer who can’t hit is called a late-inning substitute, not an everyday shortstop.
LEN, can you do a massive word search through the star trib stories for “gamer” and see how many times it is applied to each player?
Give Crede 2 years with a team option for a 3rd year.
Gagne-2 weeks sounds good.
Are you people stupid? Lyon? The NATIONAL LEAGUE hit over .300 against him. That’s like asking Carlos Silva to come back here and be our 8th inning guy.
“Are you people stupid?”
Is that a trick question?
jkucenic-I saw Sir Sidney at a social function years ago.I asked what he thought about a trade that would bring Gale Gillingham home from the Packers.Loe and behold,three days later,our conversation was part of his column.I suppose i should be honored to be considered a reliable source.LEN3 creditablity trumps Sir Sidney’s any day of the week!
Why are we even talking about Lyon?
Lyon as a Tiger is almost done.
Bartett couldn’t be Gardy’s everyday SS until he learned how to “take charge” of the infield. Presumably, this is why Casilla couldn’t/can’t be moved over to SS.
hrbekmorneau said:
“2008 at SS
Punto
G:61 E:8 FPCT: .973
Harris
G:55 E:6 FPCT: .976″
This goes back to what I believe Paul said: you can use stats to lie about anything. Remember, you don’t get charged with an error if you don’t get to a ball, but every time a ball goes through Harris’ area that Punto would have gotten to, it costs your teams runs.
In over 1000 innings at SS, Punto has saved well over 10 runs more than your average SS in fielding, per 150 games.
In over 1000 innings at SS, Harris has cost between 8 and 10 runs more than your average SS in fielding, per 150 games.
We could trade Punto for Bobby Knight.
We’d get a take-charge guy, who will hit (anyone) and get in player’s faces.
GENO…no doubt.
we can only hope toby will be ready to play by the time nicky retires so gardy has his take charge guy in his own mold.
How is/was Gardy’s range, anyway?
AM,
“How is/was Gardy’s range, anyway?”
Good enough to get him into all of 285 game in his entire MLB career.
Apparently the Mets weren’t as enamoured of his “take-charge” abilities as he remembers it.
The Mets decided to go wih a SS that could hit and field.
You know the best thing about the Twins signing Punto is that for the next three years he will continue to be the focal point for all the teams success or failure oh joy.
The Mets decided to go wih a SS that could hit and field.
Gardy’s ‘replacements’ (he was the starter just for part of one year) were Jose Oquento and Rafael Santana… not sure about the hitting part (those other guys were not silver sluggers either) but his one year as a starter he made 29 errors in 122 starts. He was that bad that the end of the year he ended up splitting time with Howard Johnson (yes, him of the steel glove and the Buscher-like defensive tools) at SS…
BC of ND,
“the best thing about the Twins signing Punto is that for the next three years”
I thought Punto’s contract was for TWO years.
I think I hear Punto-haters climbing out on the ledge as we speak.
He was too busy “taking charge” to care about errors.
Sane you know the Twins will pick up the option for the third year because secretly the Tribune is paying half of his salary just to keep the blogs alive.
Gardy taking charge of the Mets defense:
“Outfielders!
Get behind me!”
BC of ND,
That was good!
I like Gardy, but when he is quoted:
“knowing how to control the game from the shortstop, which is what I did.”;
he has to expect a little ragging.
do you think gardy would slide head first into 1b?
did he get after it or did he scuffle?
I was just looking at some interesting numbers, and wouldn’t be surprised if the Twins Springer. He looks like the real deal.
If, in fact, the Twins sign Crede and Springer, it looks like it would make for a pretty strong club, providing Crede can remain healthy.
Check out the numbers on Springer, they can be found at: http://overthebaggy.blogspot.com/
“If the Twins Springer” should read “if the Twins sign Springer.”
Aargh..
maybe gardy was taking charge by making all the teams errors himself.
ggg,
“do you think gardy would slide head first into 1b?”
There is no record of Gardy ever getting to 1B.
Sorry!
Please stop me!
JC: In both cases, I wouldn’t be too happy seeing Crede or Gagne with player options.
I could live with a mutual option, or a team option…but I doubt Boras would agree to the latter.
Because both players are coming off injury, and one is coming off a pretty bad year. If they don’t perform, the last thing the Twins want is either play exercising an option and leaving them stuck.
There is no record of Gardy ever getting to 1B.
How do you explain Toby?
Mailman?
sane, BC, ggg, T,
You guys are on a roll. You make it hard for me to read this blog clandestinely at work when I’m laughing so hard.
I never knew Karl Malone was a guest at the Gardy household.
Of course then you would think Toby would have more athletic ability…
Ragging on Gardy is just like ragging on my friends. (and them on me)
That’s why I like the guy.
that was a good one T!
it does show he had 4 homeruns! one of those must have been toby!
ggg,
Gardy also has a daughter, so only two of his HR’s are baseball-related.
sane, you’re on a roll! Let’s hear the one about, “a funny thing happened on the way to the ballpark today…..”
Check out the numbers on Springer
From a first glance his numbers seem fine, but if you check closer, you have to take him for what he is: a specialist to face righties. 2008 Splits:
Opponents OPS:
LHB: .848
RHB: .456
in the national league… if they want to bring him in as a guy who only faces RHB he’ll be fine but don’t expect set-up man stuff
I didn’t know Gardy had a daughter how long has he been using “bathroom caulk”?
werbellik,
Sorry!
One-liners are all I got.
he maybe scuffled twice!
“You guys are on a roll. You make it hard for me to read this blog clandestinely at work when I’m laughing so hard.”
Same thing hear WJ. My co-workers are wondering about me…
Apparently Sox fans are bracing for Crede to join up with the Twins. I found this picture on a South Side blog today.
I am a Punto hater, and I ain’t going anywhere guys… lol. Sorry. I have been actually busy all week. It’s almost getting to a point of my being in too good of a mood to crab about Punto until he slides into 1st, strikes out looking, or on a routine ground ball to short… dives forward and throws the ball… or when we have runners on 1st and 2nd and no one out, and he hits a lazy fly ball to left. Then I may change my mood, but right now… between work, and Tuesday… I’m in too good of a mood to really fight.
But I have a fairly serious baseball take I would like to get everyone’s opinion on if that’s ok… no name calling… no attacks or anything… how’s that sound?
It’s kind of odd that the Sox didn’t try to resign Crede they must think a lot of Josh Fields or they think Crede is really done.
BC,
“no name calling… no attacks or anything”
Are you anticipating?
Don’t worry.
We have all been drinking heavily, this morning.
Of COURSE Gardy really got after it. The game moved at a more stately pace back then, however.
Thanks… ok serious baseball idea…
BC of ND,
“they must think a lot of Josh Fields or they think Crede is really done.’
Teams, coaches and fans become frustrated with chronically injured players.
Think RonDL White, Cuddaver, Shannon Stewart and Joe Mays.
With all the free agents that are left, and the economy being what it is, and all of that… do you think that this is possibly a wonderful opportunity to see some of the have-nots really retool, and bring baseball a little closer to even?
I mean we have teams like KC and Pittsburgh that have a ton of holes, and there are atleast enough great free agents out there to make two full quality teams.
These players are going to want to sign somewhere, get playing time, get innings, and atbats, and then teams like KC and Pittsburgh at the very least would be getting Type A and Type B free draft picks the year after which could help bring these teams some extra real talent
Or am I just being in too good of a mood, and thinking too optimistically?
“ok serious baseball idea”
Oh no!
Now, I am out of my comfort zone!
BC,
The problem is that THOSE teams may be reluctant to abandon their perennial “youth movements”.
Adding multiple FA’s means removing their developing prospects from roster protection.
I forseee a lot of resistance to that path from “rebuilding” teams.
BCB There might be something to that. I think the fact that Manny hasn’t been signed yet is a good indicator that neither the Dodgers nor Angels are willing to take that kind of financial risk so he might end up in DC.
sane,
you gotta add Marty (the Rookie of the year) Cordova in your list
BC, it’s an interesting thought. However, those teams may view the economy as an excuse to NOT spend even if there are bargains. On a personal note, I really, really want a new HD TV, and the bargains are incredible right now. However, I’m taking a cautious approach to when and how I spend my money right now…
“the bargains are incredible right now. However, I’m taking a cautious approach to when and how I spend my money right now…”
The current consumer’s dilemma, in a nutshell.
I just remember how great it was when I was growing up.
Almost every team had a great player. I mean there was the Mariners who were god aweful, but overall every team had great players. Now, it’s just not happening.
Guys are going to want to get paid, and if they only way you can do it is to find a team willing, or with openings.
I understand the youth movements, but seeing those teams I really think they could supplement the teams easily, giving some of the kids more time in the minors.
These guys could come in be hot, and get traded to contenders for prospects as well… there is just so much upside with very limited downside.
The other thing is that if I am in KC, and my team is going to bring in Jon Garland, Bobby Abreu, and Orlando Hudson… I am going to get pretty excited and want to actually go to Royals games.
Werbellik,
I get where you are coming from on the HDTV, but with the major league baseball teams they can actually get something out of it financially… extra season tickets, extra walkup tickets, type A, type B draft picks, midseason trades for established prospects…
You or I buy that TV, and we are just out the cash.
sane, I want a convertible too…kind of a delayed mid-life crisis I think. At least, that’s what I’m going with today.
BC, I hear you, and I agree there are possible upsides for these teams should they follow your advice. It will be interesting to see how it pans out.
there is so many free agents out there dont be shocked if the twins get help at third even if they dont get crede. there needs to be protection for m @ m.
i do like uggla,trade option get tajada from houston for cuddy and perkins. the word is they would even eat some of the money in a deal that makes sence
werbellik,
Atleast you know what you want. I have to be getting close to my midlife crisis, and all I want is to downsize everything in my life, lol. I can’t even have a midlife crisis like everyone else.
BC,
Regardless of “youth movements”, I can see those teams ending up with high quality, but a low quantity of FA’s.
2-3-4 roster spots would not cost those team many (if any) “real” prospects.
If prices are low, a couple of good FA’s may be do-able for all the low budget teams.
so line up like this.
span
mauer
tajada
morneau
young
kubel
casilla
gomez
punto
BC,
the Royals are notorious lately for bringing in overpaid free agents who end up under performing (Guillen 3/36, Meche 5/55; Farnsworth 2/9.5, Mahay 2/8 etc); spending money is not their problem; spending it wisely is more like it…
tajada from houston for cuddy and perkins
The word out of DC is that Tejada is next in line after Bonds and Clemens for perjury charges. Nobody is touching him with a ten foot pole at this point.
excluding the idea of getting Crede and Hudson here…
I just remember seeing Dave Parker, Bill Madlock, Johnny Ray, Willie Stargell, Tony Pena in Pittsburgh with Jim Bibby, John Candeleria, and Bruce Kison… And the Royals with Brett, McRae, Willie Wilson, and one star pitcher after anohter… and Quisenberry ending the game. People talk about the Twins rotation, but does anyone remember
Saberhagen, Gubicza, Danny Jackson, David Cone, and Tom Gordon? I want to say they had two other really great starting pitchers over that period of time as well, and I can’t think of them.
Tejada isn’t coming to Minnesota unless they put him in the Federal Prison here.
BC,
Charlie Leibrandt
Kevin Appier
BC,
Charlie Liebrandt, Appier, Bud Black, Steve Busby, Dennis Leonard (depending on the year)
Larry Gura
Both the Pirates and Royals were loaded with talent back then but how many of them made more then 2 million a year?
If i remember correctly Kirby was the first ever six million dollar man boy how times have changed.
Sorry.
That was a test!
Kirby was the first ever six million dollar man boy how times have changed.
In 1981 The Chicago Tribune bought the Cubs for 20.5 million. This year they are selling them for 900 million. That’s about 44 times their buying cost. Today the highest salary in baseball is $32 million, the average is about $3 million and the minimum is about $450K.
In 1981 43 players had contracts more than $1 million, the average salary was $380 K and the minimum $55K
multiply those by the 44x factor of the Tribune’s profit and you get:
43 players with annual contracts more than $44 million
average salary $16.8 M
minimum salary $2.4 M
methinks that the owners did way much better than the players…
wow that is mind boggling when you think about it Thrylos98. I wonder if there’s any publicly traded baseball teams i think i’ll pull out whats left of my 401K and invest in them.
Kirby was the first $3 million player.
I wonder if there’s any publicly traded baseball teams
Not any more. The Cleveland Indians used to be until they were sold to Dolan. The only Publicly traded major sports team is the Packers. There were some indications that the Celtics will offer stock to the public but it ended up just being another rumor mill…
Don’t forget (while not a pitcher) that the Royals had Buddy Biancalana.
Fields was highly thought of at the beginning of last season, but started at AAA Charlotte. Had alot of injuries in AAA. Had his knee scoped this winter. Still, with all of Kenny Williams’ wheeling and dealing, the fact that the Sox haven’t gone out and gotten a third baseman must mean they still have faith in the kid.
Check out Biancalana’s career line:
205/261/293.
Yikes!
BC BENEKE-Punto hating again.Didn’t our new president talk about quiting all this hating!ON a serious note,i worry about you man.They say stress is the hidden killer.
There has to be something in the works. Any more updates today, or is everyone already at Twinsfest?
Geno…
Do you read everything I say, or just find the word punto and then decide to go off?
If you’ve read anything I’ve written lately you would see that I was poking fun of myself as much as anything… and that I hadn’t planned on jumping on him until he’d done something wrong to deserve it…
Let it go Geno… I don’t tell you how to comment or blog… we had a nice conversation going on all the free agents out there still, and how they could really help bad teams. If you want to be a part of that cool. But stay off of me!
by the way it was Appier and Gura. The Royals use to be a Pitching factory.
Beneke I agree for a while KC had some great pitchers
The Quiz
Saberhagen
Gubicza
Dennis Leonard. Paul Splittorf. Danny Jackson.
jimmy bee
yeah… splitorff, gura, gale, leonard, danny jackson, saberhagen, appier, gubicza, Cone, Gordon, Quiz.
And look at the Pirates for hitters…
Clemente (minor league dodger), Stargell, Parker, Oliver, Madlock, Johnny Ray, Tony Pena, Mike Easler, Bonds (pre-roids)… then it pretty much dried up. I mean they have had a few players like Jason Bay or Orlando Merced come out, but nothing like that factory in the late 60’s to the late 70’s and early 80’s.
jimmy bee,
I was looking for like five minutes for the questions to “The Quiz”.
Tom Gordon was pretty effective. David Cone, wow! Beneke one of the best farm systems for a while also was the Dodgers.
Pirates were very good in the late ’80s early ’90s when they had Bonds, Bonilla, Andy Van Slyke and Sid Bream
You guys all take care… even Geno… I probably won’t be back on all weekend. I have a couple of charity things I have to do tomorrow, and then a huge birthday party downtown tomorrow night… I am so old for that sort of thing… probably won’t be around on Sunday because of it. lol.
Be nice to each other guys!
Walter Johnson the Quiz was probably the best submarine style pitcher ever. Well at least in my opinion. Eck was a side armer I believe.
OK BC. I’ll do some Punto hating for you while you’re gone!
jb,
How about Kent Tekulve?
Punto is awefull. How many Puntos would it take to slide off a light bulb? He’s short and fat. I hate Punto
I was the best side armer I ever saw.
I have knowledg of Kent but I still liked the Quiz better
Wasn’t Doyle Alexander a sidearmer.
The only thing I really “hate” about Punto is that he truly believes he is a starter-quality player. And then he got pissy about it last year when it wasn’t sure if he was going to get his job back when he came back from his injury.
Punto is slow on the basepaths and thinks it makes him quicker by sliding. But in all reality sliding actually slows a runner down
You saying Doyle Alexander was better than me? The only side-armer close is Randy Johnson. However, I will admit, I got half of my strikeouts after 5:00 pm when it got kinda dark in those old lightless stadiums. Never was a righthander who would stand in there on my fastball when they could hardly see it.
So Eric Gagne is the next veteran wash-up has-been for the Twins. Next in a very long line, mind you. Who was the last good vet they signed? Molitor, Winfield…?
OK. Until further trade/FA updates this blog is now about everyones first time attending a MLB game.
To start, mine was Aug 25th 1990. A’s vs Tigers at the Tiger Stadium. I would have been 8. We got there late and my first glimpse of pro ball was the back of Canseco as he stepped to the plate. The view was right behind home plate through one of the tunnels leading to the seats. My 8yr old self was in heaven.
Later in the game Cecil Fielder parked one over the left field roof, and the place went nuts. That game is one of my favorite memories.
“There were some indications that the Celtics will offer stock to the public but it ended up just being another rumor mill…”
Thrylos i actually owned stock in the Celtics back in the mid 90’s they were a publicly traded company but i sold them cuz they didn’t perform very well i wish i still had them now.
Who was the last good vet they signed?
Depends on your definition of “good”.
Dennys Reyes wasn’t too terrible of a player. Kenny Rogers had his bad moments but was good before AND after being a Twin.
Who do you think should be brought in to fix the bullpen? It’s hard to get a conversation going when all people do is shoot down the Twins options intead of offering any advice.
el bonewaa furthest HR ever hit at Detroit Stadium was by Dick Allen.
Good vets
Molitor
Winfield
Stewart
Neikro
Don BAylor
Terry Steinbach
T,
Dennys Reyes wasn’t very “good” at the time the Twins picked him up. He found his form with the Twins.
Shannon Stewart came in a trade with Kielty going to Toronto.
Bert Blyleven, Jack Morris. But these aren’t “recent”.
depends how you define “good”.
If you define it by getting an all star appearance or winning a post season award while with the Twins, then the last “good” free agent signing was Molitor (who won a silver slugger).
If you define it by putting great numbers and helping the team without winning awards, then the last “good” free agent signing was Breslow.
t98,
Twins have been very good signing pitching and I agree Breslow was a good pickup. Hard to believe the Indians let Breslow go and then turned around and signed Rincon.
Stewart was a trade aquisition, though that deal…along with the trade FOR Castillo, and the Pierzynski trade were all pretty positive.
I need some twins news its getting really boring at work and would love to see “Twins sign “…..” or “Twins trade for “…..”
“Twins sign “…..” or “Twins trade for “…..”
There you go Justin. Hope that made your day complete
The real question is whether Guardado was worth the hampburger we traded him for.
thanks jimmy you smart a** lol
I’ll gladly pay you Tuesday for a Hamburger today
um…hamburger
I have a vague recollection of watching a Twins games in the metrodome from the left field seats. Billy Martin was the manager of the visiting A’s, and he got kicked out after kicking dirt on the second base umpire after an argument.
Somewhere, I also have a signed picture of me posing with a trim Kent Hrbek.
I saw the Angels in Anaheim at the big A against the Twins. I think Gene Mauch was the manager and Gene “The singing Cowboy” Autry still owned them
Saw Lou Pinella (w/ Mariners) get tossed at the dome once. Around five minutes later you see all the bats & batting helmets come flying out of the dugout onto the field.
My first Twins game George Brett got thrown out at first and kicked his helmet all the way back to the dugout. That season KC had Frank White, Bud Black, and Vida Blue. There were 11 HRs in the game. I sat by the right field bullpen and you could hear people talking in the stands behind the left field bullpen. Most people were in the concourse watching a Gopher football game on the wall TVs.
I saw the Dodgers play the Braves with a good manager matchup of Tommy Lasorda trying to outsmart Bobby Cox
I guess there were only 5 homers in the game. Al Williams pitched for the Twins. At the time (and maybe still) he was the only baseball player born in Nicaragua.
Justin: “Twins signed” Nick Punto, and are in the process of signing Jason Kubel.
I believe Dennis Martinez was desde Nicaragua.
Do Nicaraguans speak spanish?
W Johnson,
You are correct. According to Wikipedia there have been five MLB players from Nicaragua. Maybe Williams was the only player to have fought for the Sandanistas (in 1977).
WJ,
Are you talking to yourself again?
My bad!
Walter Johnson was posting to W. Johnson.
Is this a scene from “Blazing Saddles”?
Wasnt Dennis Martinez the one who nailed Kirby in the head?
Wow! So little time and so many posts. Great to see so many as excited as me for the upcoming season. My two cents…I think Crede would be a great pickup as long as they do not overpay. I believe that the need to add a veteran like him with some pop who can play defense. The Twins can take care of next year when it comes. As has been said, high risk and high reward. Gagne I am not so sure of. U think there are better options in the minors. Go Twins!!
Martinez broke Puckett’s jaw and was the last man to pitch to Kirby in a regular season game.
WJ they were actually friends.
People often comment on this blog that no one (except thrylos) expected the Twins to win more than 75 games last year. I just ran across an e-mail that I sent LaVelle last year on February 25, urging him to get behind a Bonds signing, because Bonds could mean the difference for the team in terms of getting into the playoffs. I didn’t remember this until stumbling across the e-mail, but I think I had a pretty on target assessment for the season. See the excerpt below:
“Look back at the rosters in 2002 and 2003, years in
which the Twins won 94 and 90 games, respectively.
This team matches up at least as well, statistically,
as those teams. Here’s the 2002 rotation:
Reed, 32 games, 3.78 ERA, 1.16 WHIP, 15-7
Lohse, 31 games, 4.23 ERA, 1.39 WHIP, 13-8
Milton, 29 games, 4.84 ERA, 1.19 WHIP, 13-9
Radke, 21 games, 4.72 ERA, 1.22 WHIP, 9-5
Mays, 17 games, 5.38 ERA, 1.45 WHIP, 4-8
and here’s the 2003 rotation:
Radke, 33GS, 4.49, 1.27
Lohse, 33GS, 4.61, 1.27
Rogers, 31 GS, 4.57, 1.42
Reed, 21 GS, 5.07, 1.36
Mays, 21 GS, 6.30, 1.52
“Liriano-Baker-Bonser-Slowey-Hernandez can match those
numbers. Do you really think they can’t?
“The Twins’ lineup will be better than those 02 and 03
versions–only one sink hole in the lineup (Everett)
as opposed to two (Guzman and Rivas), plus upgrades at
catcher, first, and hopefully left. They scored 768
and 802 runs in 02 and 03. I think they can pass the
800 mark in 08.
“So, I’m not sure why you are so quick to write off the
season. And if they can legitimately get to 85 wins,
Bonds could easily be the difference between the
playoffs and October off.”
Twins scored 829 runs in 2008, and their rotation performed like this:
Blackburn, 33GS, 4.05ERA, 1.36WHIP, 11-11
Baker, 28GS, 3.45ERA, 1.18WHIP, 11-4
Slowey, 27GS, 3.99ERA, 1.15WHIP, 12-11
Perkins, 26GS, 4.41ERA, 1.47WHIP, 12-4
Livan, 23GS, 5.48ERA, 1.63WHIP, 10-8
Liriano, 14GS, 3.91ERA, 1.39WHIP, 6-4
Unfortunately, they were one piece short of getting to the playoffs.
NO to Crede. The Twins have better players.
AM,
I think that what the Twins should focus on is how they match up to the rest of the division. With the dismantling of the White Sox and the inactivity of the Tigers, the Indians is probably the team they need to watch for next year. Since the roster is not settled yet I will wait till spring training to calculate how many games I think the Twins will win, but they need to watch the Indians…
If Crede and Boras think a one year deal is best, why would they risk it on a team that plays on turf and risk a repeated back injury? Besides, if Crede signs, then who do we send to the minors or let go? Look at Crede’s numbers over the past 3 seasons against teams he had 40 AB or more: he hits the Twins the best (0.318 batting average), this includes the time we had Santana; he hit a home run once in every 11 AB against the Twins, more than even Kansas City (1 HR in every 13 AB); and over the last 3 seasons, against teams with 40 or more AB, he has a slugging average and OPS of 0.652/0.98 against the Twins (KC is second at 0.583/0.885). ANYONE ELSE REMEMBER CRAIG MONROE??? Koskie was horrible at third when he first started and improved greatly when given the opportunity to be the starting 3rd baseman. I would prefer to keep with the current plan, I know it is not ideal, but hopefully it would produce our own true starting 3rd baseman for the new ballpark!
if Crede signs, then who do we send to the minors or let go?
Buscher
hopefully it would produce our own true starting 3rd baseman
Valencia and Romero are at least 2 years away at this point ..
Send Casilla down maybe he learn how to field like Punto.
I’ve got the Twins’ rotation at 14 wins above average, and the Indian’s at 11.
The line-up is a different story; Indians’ roster is 25 wins above average compared to 21 for the Twins. I haven’t looked closely at the bullpen out yet, but assuming they are relatively comparable, it looks like the Indians project to about 87-88 wins, with the Twins at 85-86, as currently constructed.
If the Twins sign Gagne will they make him wear a uniform that fits? Last year he looked like a circus clown and most of the time pitched like one.
Lyon signs 1-year deal with Tigers. Happy TwinsFest. If you happen to see Brian Buscher there, check to see if he has lobster claws instead of hands.
Oh, and Russ Springer is nealing a deal with the A’s. Guess the FO is too wrapped up in TWinsFest to sign anybody.
jkucenic,
It sounds like the Twins FO is still working on Springer, but the A’s are actually offering money.
So the Twins will probably end up with a cheaper (inferior) alternative like Gagne.
That Gardy quote is priceless. He played less than 2 years in the majors, and he wants a SS like himself? Ugh.
Less than 320 games, two years worth of games, not number of seasons, is what I meant.
I’d want a SS that fields, gets on base, and doesn’t slide into first base…as a starter…
If the Twins can sign Crede to a reasonable contract (and the sticking point here is defining “reasonable) I think it would be a good move. I would also prefer Juan Cruz to Gagne but the Twins will never, ever, give up the draft choice. I know the Twins would never do this, but signing Ben Sheets and moving Perkins or Blackburn to the pen (I prefer Blackburn in the rotation but I think Blackie has the moxie to be an 8th inning guy) to me would be better than going with Gagne. I consider Sheets a risk but he’s a “quality” signing and I prefer “quality” over quantity.
Thrylos98…Keep posting. I always like your takes.
Also, if Sheets were to have to spend some time on the DL, which we all know is a distinct possibility, the Twins have the starter depth (Blackie, Perkins) to withstand missing him for an indeterminate length of time. A staff of Sheets, Baker, Liriano, Slowey and Blackie/Perkins could be tremendous.
Add Crede to a lineup that would be:
Span LF
Casilla 2B
Mauer C
Mourneau 1B
Delmon RF
Kubel DH
Crede 3B
Gomez CF
Punto SS
You could exchange Cuddyer for Young but I prefer Delmon. I think it looks pretty solid. We can afford Sheets. He’s the kind of pitcher who can shut teams down in a playoff situation. Plus, IF he works out (I know it’s a big IF, we have starting pitching depth in the minors we could use as trade bait and if thru circumstances we find we are not contending Sheets is always an attractive trade option for prospects.
Top Gunn - Question - why would you put Kubel before Crede?
Since it doesn’t appear that the Twins will sign a position player or trade for anyone at all then perhaps Sheets would be the best we could hope for. And indeed, the upside, in the unlikely event it is realized, is very high.
If you are a pitcher Springer’s age, wouldn’t it be more appealing to go a team like the Twins with a realistic opportunity to contend for a division title and playoffs if the money is even close? Oakland isn’t considered to be a serious contender this year are they? I know there are other factors that pitchers/players weigh before making a decision, but wouldn’t opportunity to win be most important, especially when you’re past 40 and still playing major league baseball?
You’d like to think so.
Older players have either gained enough wisdom so that money isn’t everything or they spent foolishly when they were younger and are now frantic to get those last big paydays.
Springer strikes me as someone in the former group.
Marv,
I put Kubel ahead of Crede for a couple of reasons:
1. Left/Right mix to the batting order.
2. More importantly, I think he’s a better hitter at this stage than Crede. He has the potential to hit for a higher average (.280-.295) to Crede who will probably hit .250-.265 and his power potential is equal to Crede (20-25HR’s). Also, if we’re facing a tough lefty we could plug Cuddyer in Kubel’s spot in the batting order.
Good points Top Gunn.
I’d love for them to sign Sheets. Based on the Twins track record, however, despite the relative affordability of this move, the chances of that happening are approximately 100 to 1. Is that higher or lower than them signing Pedro?
Either would be a significant (if injury risk) improvement over having Perkins in the rotation.
AM,
I’m not so much a mathamatical rating guy like you. That’s a quality I admire. I’m curious. On your 7:26 AM post you figure 85-86 wins for the Twins as configured. What would this formula say applied to last years team at the same time of the year? Thanks in advance.
In regards to the Lyon signing.
He actually turned down a multiyear to sign with Detroit. So I’m guessing Detroit came over the top with a offer to close instead of MR.
Paul–I’ll try to figure it out, but my guess is less.
Paul–I just pulled up the 2008 marcels. The numbers don’t line up with my projections exactly; I didn’t see FIP in the 2008 Marcels. But in any case, using the projected lineup:
Mauer C
Morneau 1B
Cuddyer RF
Harris 2B
Lamb 3B
Kubel/Monroe DH
Young LF
Gomez CF
Everett SS
and rotation of
Slowey
Baker
Livan
Blackburn
Perkins
(Bonser spot)
I get 22.5 wins above average from the lineup, and 9.5 wins above average from the rotation, plus 2-3 wins from the bullpen, plus average team of 47 wins, equals 81-82 wins.
The pitchers outperformed their projections, Lamb and Young and Everett underperformed theirs. Span and Liriano replaced weaker spots on the team, and Casilla to a lesser extent. Plus, as everyone knows, the team hit insanely well with RSIP.
Interesting question–if Lamb, Everett, Harris and Livan had kept their starting jobs all season, would the team have won 82 games instead of 88?
AM
Thanks. So, if the Twins overproduce as a group to the extent they did last year maybe 91-92 wins. Yes! Forever the optimist.
If there’s major breaking news, Joe C. will handle it.
You’re joking, right LaVelle?
Joe and the mrs have time for ANOTHER baby before there’ll be any ‘major breaking news’ out of the Twins Front Office.
And I’m only partly kidding.
hey Lavelle, nice view you have from your seat at the dome….I got to sit in your seat
we minnesotans need another championship this century, and they way to do it.
1. Denard Span RF
2. Alexi Casilla 2nd
3. Joe Mauer C
4. Justin Morneau 1st
5. Jason Kubel DH
6. Joe Crede 3rd
7. Delmon Young LF
8. Nick Punto SS
9. Carlos Gomez CF
Say J, is Cuddy gonna play? OR do you see a preseason injury coming alla Nancy Karrigan- Tonya Harding? Kinda expensive for Twins to carry him as a bench player.
W Johnson,
“Kinda expensive for Twins to carry him as a bench player.”
The payroll is identical, whether Cuddy is on the field, or on the bench.
One thing about bringing in Crede is that it gives us a right handed hitter to DH against lefties.
When healthy Crede is beter than Blake or Wigginton.
Twins better get a 2B that can field along with a defensive minded 3B
rich3, the twins have alexi casilla, one of the best young second basemen out there
W Johnson, Cuddy will play he just is gonna be swithced around as 3rd in the mix with buscher and harris and mix with the outfielders too
i’d say that kid knows alot above me
La Velle, we sure could use another post. Thank you!
La Velle -
Keep it real dude. I know you probably get bored covering this team but the perks are probably real nice. I was watching the MLB Network the other night and they ran down the list of off-season moves for each team. They spent 2-3 minutes on some teams and 2-3 seconds on others. I’m sure you know where the Twins fit in. Keep up the nice work and who knows maybe the Twins will actually make a notable move before the season starts….I’m on the edge of my seat.
One question:
As unlikely as it is, IF the Twins signed Sheets, who would get bumped from the rotation…and where would he Then go?
It’d be VERY likely that he’d be injured at some point…or a lot, but when he’s not, who’s out?
6 man rotation?
…Ok, more like 2.5 questions…
TK2–Perkins would be the odd man out. He can got to the pen; he’s pitched in the pen before.
If Sheets pitches 120 innings, that’s a 1.5 win increase over Perkins. If he’s healthy and pitches 180 innings, that’s a 3-game improvement over starting Perkins.
I know the Twins weren’t looking at SP. But the market has come down, and they REALLY should consider taking a shot at Sheets.
Still a 100 to 1 shot, though.
Hmmm:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MLB_Front_Office_Manager
This could be a good learning experience for some of us here. And no, you’re not allowed to turn off the budget limits OR turn on “approve all trades”.
Bill Smith. Are you alive? What are you doing? How do the donuts taste?
Get off your arse and sign someone. Anything under 8 million for a one year deal for Crede, get it done.
Gagne, offer him a mill or two and if he doesn’t take it, work out some minor leaugers to fill the bullpen hole(Delaney, Slama). They have a couple studs that would work out I think if given the chance. Gagne is basically just a good looking name on the back of a player that is way past his prime or cannot take roids anymore, whichever it is.
Не видишь, написано русским по белому?…
Если что-то понятно само собой, то кому оно нужно?
Встречают по одежке, а провожают шибко грамотных…
Скромность украшает человека. Особенно когда других нет украшений.
Очень интересно! Спасибо.
Автору респект! Написано красиво!
Так и есть =)
классная статья
maybe yes or maybe no, maybe rain or maybe snow….
+1
суперский блог!
позитивная статья:)
Не совершив ошибку, ты не поймешь, что это ошибка.
goldfuture.ru/love
Очень познавательно:)
познавательно..
отлично..
зачётная статья!
довольно оригинально..
называется: “Кто первый встал, того и валенки”
клевая статья..
