The Sunday morning Crede report
Posted on February 15th, 2009 – 10:00 AMBy La Velle
First of all, I apologize for not posting an update last night after I got off the phone with Scott Boras.
Anyway, I’ve been skeptical of the Twins signing Joe Crede throughout the offseason. At first, the Twins didn’t want to touch him. Then they were forced to look at other options when talks with Casey Blake broke down. Then they really had to look at all options when Mark DeRosa, a player they wanted, was quietly traded to Cleveland.
Crede started working out in Arizona about three weeks ago, and the Twins were one of the teams in attendance. Soon, we heard about contract talks and medical reports being examined. I remained skeptical because I knew the Twins always had concerns about Crede’s back, and the contract demands - a base of around $7 million with incentives to push it into eight figures - seemed to be too much.
So Saturday comes. I call Boras, and I was pleasantly surprised that he picked up the phone. I’ve had two conversations with Boras in the last month. Before that, I hadn’t spoken with him since I was covering the Royals and his client Johnny Damon.
Boras hinted that a resolution might be near.
“I anticipate, the way things are going right now, that you might have a solution on where Joe is going. I can’t say a definite amount of time, but I think it’s a shorter than longer amount of time.”
A couple hours later, I see an item from my man Andy Baggarly in which he writes: “I’m hearing the Giants expect he’ll sign with the Twins.”
Boras says a decision is close. Baggarly says the Giants are in concession mode. Boras also talked about how Crede wants to play for a winning team and, while some might object, this is still a good Twins team in a division that can be had. And you gotta believe Crede would love 19 18 shots at his former team, the White Sox.
Now I’m starting to think the Twins can pull this off.
Boras claimed other teams have shown interest too, but I’m racking my brain to come up with other teams.
Texas? No. They are moving Michael Young to third.
Phillies? Maybe. But they were looking for cover just in case Pedro Feliz didn’t come back from, coincidentally, offseason back surgery. The Phillies were interested Mark DeRosa and Ty Wigginton as insurance policies in case Feliz couldn’t make it. But word is Feliz is on the field and while he’ll miss some spring games (he can hang out with Joe Mauer) he’ll be ready for Opening Day. If not, they have Greg Dobbs and Jason Donald.
Reds? They have Twins spring training-killer Edwin Encarnacion at third. If they were going to move him to the outfield I don’t see that anymore since they have Norris Hopper, Wily Tavares and Jay Bruce projected as starters with a bunch of potential backups, inlcuding Johnny Gomes and Jacque Jones.
Who else is left? I’m not sure.
Update: Milwaukee? With Bill Hall out for 4-6 weeks, the Brewers could look for help. It’s not likely though, as they have Mike Lamb to fill in.
So it could be an interesting next few days here. I’ll post updates whenever I come across some new information.
But all I’m stating for now is that this is the first time during his whole process that I think the Twins have a real shot at signing Crede.
176 Responses to "The Sunday morning Crede report"
Sometimes patience wins the day, I suppose, and if it nabs Crede for a reasonable price I’ll consider this a decent offseason for the Twins.
Thanks for the update, Len! I’d like to see Crede signed. $7 million is a little high to gamble, but if they don’t spend it on Crede, it won’t get spent, so, go for it.
While the most palatable option at this point, signing Joe Crede does NOT make for a decent offseason for the Twins.
The Minnesota philosophy - Lowered Expectations.
I really hope he doesn’t carry on the Twins FA 3B curse, but this could end up being one of the most impactful FA signings in a LONG time for the Twins……or, it could be another flop.
Personally, Crede is the 3B that I liked the most from the entire list of 3B available this year.
Assuming Crede signs, what do we do with Humber/Boof? We’re going to get in a logjam of numbers with players who have options left but have to play (Span, perhaps not Gomez), players out of options (the afore mentioned Humber/Boof), and players we’re paying too much not play (Punto, and Crede if he signs). Does that mean Buscher goes to AAA? Do we trade for someone? If so, who? A reliever? A prospect?
The Twins will still be below the payroll from 2007. They need to make a move. Nobody will fault them if the Crede move backfires (unlike Bastisa, Lamb, etc) because Crede is still in his prime. It’s worth the risk.
Looks like it’s going to happen…
LaVelle,
any talk on who is getting off the 40 man roster for Ayala?
Lets get real:
What do you propose the Twins should have done this off-season? Do you have a better option for 3B?
If healthy - IF healthy — Crede is an all-star caliber 3B who could protect Morneau in the lineup and provide excellent defense. If his back problems are truly gone, Crede is a definite upgrade and a bargain at $7 m. If he’s not healthy he just joins the long line of pathetic, post-Koskie third basemen.
Then again, many people thought — myself included — that signing Mike Lamb last year was a solid move for the Twins.
IF GIVING THE TWINS A CHANCE AT THE PLAYOFFS THIS SEASON IS A GOAL, THEN SIGN CREDE!! SCENARIOS:
1. DOESN’T SIGN AND WE HAVE A PLATTOON OF HARRIS/BUSCHER
2.SIGNS AND STAYS HEALTHY, WE HAVE AN ALL STAR POWER HITTING GREAT FIELDING 3RD BASEMAN.
3. DOESN’T STAY HEALTHY, SEE SCENARIO ONE!!!!
A NO BRAINER.WE HAVE EVERYTHING TO GAIN AND NOTHING BUT MONEY TO LOSE. (AND THIS IS ONE TIME THE TWINS CAN’T CLAIM POVERTY )
JERRY G. ( CLOSEING IN ON 800 TWINS GAMES ATTENDED, BUT LOSEING PATIENCE.)
(That is, going into the season … now I think that the Lamb signing totally blew up in the team’s face.)
Jerry, no caps please. Basic interweb etiquette.
I do agree with your point, though. The only downside to signing Crede is potentially lost money, which the Twins have thrown away at a rate of around $6 mil. a year that last couple of years on guys like Livan, Lamb, and Ortiz.
It’s not like Crede is going to take away valuable development time from Buscher or Harris (assuming that Buscher isn’t suddenly going to become a top prospect).
La Velle, if Twins sign Crede in addition to Ayala, they will need to open TWO roster spots. Do you expect a minor trade or just releasing players? (Or try to pass through wavers.) Thank you.
The only downside to signing Crede is potentially lost money,
there is another downside to that. The 40-man roster is full. The Twins will cut one person by tomorrow to make room for Ayala. If they do not make a trade to open a space for Crede they need to cut another one. Neshek cannot go to the DL because the DL does not exist before the season starts. The players that were added on the 40-man roster to be protected for the Rule 5 draft cannot be taken off. So in all likelihood 2 out of the following (1 for sure for Ayala) will be cut:
Bobby Korecky
Matt Macri
Brian Buscher
pick your poison.
(that’s why it did not make sense to put players like Armado Gabino and Sal’s kid on the roster to protect them from the draft)
I sure hope this happens. As many have already said, let this be the annual off-season crappy veteran signing. Even if he never plays it’s money better spent than it was on Livan, Ortiz or Batista. And if he plays, even if he barely hits, he brings near premium defense at 3rd. That alone makes it worth it imo.
Buscher won’t be cut. He would be a good stick off the bench and would be insurance for when Crede’s back acts up. Also, I think they can free up one spot by putting Neshek on I.R.
If Neshek can’t go on IR, I bet it will be Korecky and Macri, with Macri potentially being claimed by another team.
I’m guessing the Twins will wait until they have a sense of what Buscher did over the offseason. If he looks good, they may reject Crede entirely.
However, if he struggles in the field, I’m sure Smith has Boras’ number on speed dial.
thrylos,
I understand the importance of the 40-man around the rule 5 draft and the off-season, but does it make a difference who is on the 40-man during the season?
That said, I would be fine with taking either Macri or Korecky off. I like Korecky better, but I don’t think it would be the end of the world if they lost him.
Ya, see that’s what I wanted to find out. Thanks thrylos98 for helping put that into perspective for me.
So, is there a possibility the Twins are working on a side trade with some other players as a way of managing the 40 man roster? Perhaps moving a Humber/Boof and an infielder for some other prospects? Or would the Twins just let someone go for nothing?
And just to double check that I understand this correctly–the 40 man roster must be adjusted by tomorrow for Ayala. What would the time table be if they were to sign Crede (say sometime next week)? I guess my real question is if they could buy a little time to evaluate/showcase some of the younger guys before having to make a roster move?
There is definately a risk here, but if you can get a player like Crede without giving up prospects for $7 million, that seems like as good an option as paying $12 million plus a ton of propsects for Beltre(or slightly less money and prospects for Atkins). If the deal gets done try and spin Buscher off for a double AA prospect in an area of need(although I have no idea where those areas are, it seems the team is young in the majors with depth in the minors). If Crede gets hurt Harris isn’t a bad stopgap until Hughes/Valencia are ready. Or you could move Punto back to third and go with Tolbert/Harris at short. Or Punto to third, Casilla to short, and Tobert/Harris to second. After writing that you have to give the front office for at least giving Gardy flexibility. I think that is why Buscher is expendable, he only plays one position and doesn’t do it particularly well. Also, 5 man pitching staff, 7 man bullpen(Nathan, Mijares, Crain, Breslow, Guerrier, Ayala, Bonser/Humber) Bonser or Humber is your long relief and emergency starter. The other is traded for something,anything.
Crede, the return of Cuddyer, and growth(even realistic growth) of Young adds probably 50 homeruns to offense. And all of this is done while preserving both roster and payroll flexibility as all the young players start getting expensive next year. I personally think that the front office is doing a great job, just not the flashy one most people want.
“pick your poison.”
Korecky and Macri.
The poison is delicious today!
May I have more?
Are you people serious? why would you take off legit guys with major league experience (Buscher, Macri, Korecky)
Jason Jones can easily be sent back to AAA - the Yankees will take a low level prospect for him and our awesome pitching coach at AAA (name please? he’s been amazing for us) will work with him for a bit. There’s one guy right there for Ayala.
Before I hit submit, I also meant to put in names like Plouffe or Butera - neither seems even close to major-league ready, and I am highly doubting a team will just go jump at them. That would take care of your extra spot for Crede
I also would venture to guess Humber or Bonser get traded for a solid AAA prospect out there.
I would hardly call Macri legit, and 34 AB’s isn’t much major league experience.
And in all honesty I am ignorant to this whole process, so I would appreciate a short course on how taking guys off the 40 man makes them available and how that would work.
msm,
Good suggestiom re. Jason Jones.
However Korecky has 15 pitchers ahead of him right now; with more developing every month.
The Twins charter airplane would have to crash in order for Korecky to rejoin the Twins MLB team.
KB
LEN is a good judge of talent, and his comments plus the solid contributions he made when he was up here make me think he can make a solid shot at 3B this year.
I would like to see Boof moved, I think he could have some success somewhere else, just doesn’t seem like it’s going to click here. But, maybe with a change of scenery…
sane
thank you; I don’t know, but I like Korecky’s game style and slider, and his experience as a closer make me think he’s got set-up man material.
medschool,
I can respect that opinion, he’s just never done anything that got me excited.
Thanks thrylos98, as always you are very well informed. I would speculate Korecki being put on wavers. 2nd most likely option would be a trade of 2 or 3 of our prospects for 1 or 2 low level prospects, gaining 1 or 2 spots on the roster. 3rd most likely, a “major” trade to get someone MLB ready player for 2 or 3 prospects. Example, Humber, Mulvey, Swarzek & Hughes for JJ Hardy & prospect.
Korecky is also 29 years old.
KB
I’d like Boof to catch on somewhere, but first I’d really like to see how he’d do as a one-inning guy; he’s got the heat and stuff to make it through an inning and has been known to blow some guys away. he also has set-up man material in my opinion
msm,
Also “major-league-ready” is not the sole criteria for 40-man-roster suitability.
Projection as an eventual MLB player is also a factor. Aaron Hicks is far from MLB-ready, but if he were available, every MLB-team would be all over him.
There is a possibility that the Twins could trade Humber for a minor leaguer they wouldn’t have to protect. They could also send Jones back to the Yankees.
msm,
I agree, he’d be a great fit as a 1 inning guy, I just don’t think he’s bought into it yet. I thought he was going to be the answer as the 8th inning guy down the stretch last year.
Great leg work on this one La Velle. I think people are forgetting how much the Twins would have given up for Beltre. Or how Wigginton isn’t even good enough to play Third for the Orioles. Or that Blake is 37 years old. Crede seems like a risk, but a smart risk. Batista was a terrible risk because he didn’t even play the entire season before the Twins signed him. Cuddyer was a risk because he hadn’t played Third before. Punto was a risk because he hadn’t really proved himself as a starter. Lamb was a risk because he was an average bench player. Crede has at least proved himself to be a solid player (All-Star, Silver Slugger, World Series champion). La Velle also makes a great point of Crede wanting to get some revenge on the White Sox for letting him go. The Twins are still well under payroll. Their main goals for the offseason: get a third baseman, get help for the bullpen. I always thought the third baseman was more critical than the bullpen (I think they have some solid younger arms to work with). Signing Crede would boost the middle of the lineup a great deal. A Mauer-Morneau-Cuddyer-Kubel-Crede middle of the order is very dangerous.
Macri has an MLB chance this year, but if Crede is signed, that chance all but disappears.
Sane
true that; Hicks is probably the best non-pitching prospect we’ve had since…help me out here
Hicks is the best since Revere? 
Another thing to consider from Crede’s perspective:
If he and Boras are viewing this as a one year audition for a big contract next year, it would be much better to play in the AL central where he knows the pitchers, parks, etc. than to go to the NL with the Giants.
Let’s see Hicks succeed/excel at AA at least, before we get too excited.
“Hicks is probably the best non-pitching prospect we’ve had since”…..
Joe Mauer
Medschool-
If we were to keep Jones (even with a trade with the Yanks) he would need to remain on the 40 man roster or he could be claimed by anyone willing to place him on their 40 man.
Korecki, Macri, Jones… A small loss for a gamble on Crede’s health.
Crede could still surprise us and turn down a very fair offer. Another team could fail to surprise us and make a very stupid offer to Crede. I define very fair as $5M guaranteed, $7.5M with meaningful incentives. If Billy Smith makes an offer close to this, and Crede walks, he’s off the hook with me.
Instead of Crede they should sign Creed. They are awesome live.
Can the Twins just make up their 3B mind up sooner rather than later before Continental decides they want to raise prices on their plane fares? The Twins are one of two teams I want to see play in Camden, but I want to see what the potential fallout could be if they sign Crede……can they move on this or move on completely?
Wow, THE Scott Boras himself picked up his phone when the caller ID showed that a Twins beat reporter was calling? Why in the world would he do that? Couldn’t have been that he had something he wanted put “out there”, could it?
I mean… it wouldn’t possibly be that he wants to jack up the expectations level among the public to put just a little extra pressure on the Twins, would it?
Crede’s options were few a week ago and they are almost non-existent, outside the Twins, now.
If Crede is signed, then the 25 man roster for position players stays pretty much the same. Crede at 3B, Harris becomes what Punto should be (backup at 2B, SS, and 3B), and Buscher is the left-handed platoon at 3B and 1B. Buscher could make his mark at 1B–remember how Morneau fared down the stretch after not missing a game last year? He could be very productive as left-handed platoon, bench player, and PH.
Guys that can could be taken off 40 man roster: Buetera (c’mon, we have 5 protected catchers???), Macri, Pridie, Jason Jones.
So this is going to be decided when? Who ultimately has the last word on how much money the Twins are willing to offer Joe blow Crede?
By the way… Drew Silva over at MLBTR is getting REALLY good. He had a link to this 10:00 am blog post at 11:59 pm last night! (Of course, it didn’t link to anything when I clicked it.) He must be psychic!
If the Twins want him they better sign him since the Brewers just lost Bill Hall for at least a month.
Bill Hall is out for Milwaukee, any chances they may be taking a look at Crede as well?
Brewers have JJ Hardy and Alcides Escobar.
They don’t need no stinkin’ Crede.
Guys that can could be taken off 40 man roster: Buetera (c’mon, we have 5 protected catchers???), Macri, Pridie, Jason Jones.
Butera, Plouffe and Jones cannot be taken off the 40 man roster (unless the Twins return Jones to the Yankees; which they should do because the Twins have guys on the bubble who are better than him -Humber/Bonser).
The importance of that 40 man roster during the season is that unless someone is included he cannot be called up.
For Crede to be in the training camp, he needs to be on the 40 man roster.
plus the month they lost him for is Spring Training. They might not have him for a week or two to open the season to get timing down, but he should be ready to go fairly early in the season. No need to pay 7 mil+
“For Crede to be in the training camp, he needs to be on the 40 man roster.”
Unless he signs a minor league contract while Boras is in the Men’s Room.
actually one player can be removed from the 40 man and then added back on when they can DL Neshek. They would just have to get the player through waivers first.
Crede would be a fine addition, but despite his all-star appearance last year he isn’t a player I can get excited about. Only twice in his career has he posted an OPS+ over 100 and one of those two times he only had 200AB. Compare that to Harris who in the last 2 years has posted OPS+ of 106 and 97. Crede has more HR power but struggles to get on base. They could luck out and get a career year out of him but odds favor a disappointing season offensively.
The area where Crede could be a significant upgrade is in defense. He would definitely save a few runs defensively, but at the cost of keeping guys like Harris, Buscher, Macri and possibly Luke Hughes from gaining experience at the position. If he comes down to their price I have no problem with his signing, but I won’t be upset if he doesn’t.
It was a blast from the past watching Koskie take pb and field gb’s at 3rd this morning.
Crede really has had only one good year (2006) that substantially eclipses the combined production of the Twins’ 3B platoon players. At $7M he’s too close to being one of the top paid Twins and this might make re-signing Mauer too expensive; if Crede didn’t outperform Mauer and Morneau, the signing really would skewer the Twins’ payroll to possibly make other players unsignable, b/c everyone would want comparable numbers (think Span, Casilla, Young, Baker, Blackburn, & etc.).
Also, if Baker, Span, Casilla, & etc. continue their development, I’d rather the Twins considered an Longoria-type move and lock them up for 6+ years rather than waste the money on Crede.
Considering my above comments in this post, if the Twins were to sign Crede, the base would have to be low (not over $2M), but, of course, with incentives, the annual amount should approach the $$7 - $8M range only his 2009 numbers equal his 2006 production; however, with more incentives even more pay if his numbers were to eclipse even those of his 2006 season.
Otherwise, if he puts up his 2004 or 2005 numbers and/or gets injured (a very likely possibility - maybe greater than 50%), he’s just a much more expensive version of Rondell White.
Anyway, nice to see (at least so far) in today’s comments just reasonable, objective comment without the raging about the wealth of the Pohlads and other angry, wacko comments. Do those who rage as such realize just how much they appear as sorry, pathetic losers?
These angry bloggers remind of the old Russian vignette. A man finds a genie lamp. He rubs it. The genie tells the man that the genie has left two wishes, but the man may have only one of the two remaining wishes, provided that, after the granting of the wish, the man throws the lamp into the river. The man agrees to the conditions and asks that the genie give to him the most beautiful home in all of Russia. The genie grants the wish and the man throws the lamp into the river.
The man’s neighbor, a fisherman, sees the new home and fumes for years and ends his friendship with the man, because he’s jealous of the new house. Then, one day while fishing at the river, the neighbor finds the genie lamp. The neighbor rubs the lamp and the genie appears and tells him I’ve only one wish left and will grant it. So, the genie asks, ‘What do you want’?
The fisherman replies: ‘Burn down my neighbor’s house.’
One last thought: With Crede’s back problems, he may not be the clutch hitter expected by many, instead he may well be a crutch hitter
I am absolutely not a Crede fan, but I am becoming resigned to the fact that he’ll be a Twin pretty soon. So I hope I’m wrong.
I’ll set the bar pretty low for him, too. If he can hit 15 home runs and draw more walks than Delmon Young, I’ll consider Crede a success with the Twins.
I just pray if they sign Crede it isn’t at the horrid 7mil + 4mil incentives crap that’s been going around.
But if the Twins are the only team interested, it should put them in the driver’s seat.
Especially with how public they’ve been about being just fine with Buscher/Harris. 
It could very well be the thing holding up Crede’s signing is the signing team making room for him.
sign crede. as long as it’s not for more than 4 or 5 mil guaranteed. it’s not my money anyway and if he DOES get hurt, we still have the harris/buscher combo as backup which isn’t the end of the world. if crede is HEALTHY and playing defense like he can and hitting homers like he can 7th in the lineup, this team is going to be very dangerous.
Thanks for the update LaVelle. If true, it’s a good risk. Crede is no Tony Bautista. If he is signing here, it is surely not going to be for 7M guaranteed. But something more reasonable is fine. Hope it will work out! I think it’s a good risk, with big upsside for this season, as long as they are OK with his medicals. It would show us the FO is commited to competing this season.
[…] Twins Insider – […]
Boras probably welcomed a call from a reporter that didn’t have anything to do with A-Rod and steroids.
Negotiations sometimes just take awhile and fans usually aren’t too patient. Lavelle, maybe you can answer this: If he is able to sign with the Twins for a year, any idea whether he might qualify as a Type-A free agent at the end of 2009, which means the Twins could get a draft pick if he were to be let go?
LEN 3. Thanks for the update. Encouraging news about Crede may be on his way to the Twins. As for the schedule we only play the White Sox and other AL Central teams 18 times a year not 19.
If Crede thinks he’s healthy, and really wants to show what he can do now, sign a lower guarentee contract with a ton of incentive and bonus’. I wouldn’t have a problem with that. So much for so many games, so much for not going on the disabled list, so much for RBI’s and homers, errors etc. Great.
YES!!!!!! This would be amazing. Thanks for the updates LaVelle!!
Crede has something to prove this year. Plus, he is staying in the Central and will be facing the White Sux plenty of times to exact revenge. Who cares who gets dropped off the 40 man roster? Macri is an ok career minor leaguer and Humber looked outmatched in the minors last year. These guys are expendable for Crede!!!
Boras might be the best agent out there,but he was still hired by Crede.If the Twins offer is close i think Crede will sign it. He has stated in the past that he would to play with the M@M BOYS!
“while some might object, this is still a good Twins team in a division that can be had. ”
Which teams are objecting? This team were within 1 game of winning the division, with a very young team that no one expected to contend. We’re one year older, granted, with higher expectations and lack of “sneakability.” Personally, and this is just my opinion, my fully expect the Twins to contend again.
“He has stated in the past that he would to play with the M@M BOYS!”
When did he EVER say that?
todd anthony-probably in the article about Guillen loving the Twins approach to the game,but who care,he did say it!
“this is the first time during his whole process that I think the Twins have a real shot at signing Crede”
Is this the point in the Eric Gagne negotiations, where Bill Smith left the room to get some coffee, and never returned?
Man if the Twins can get this done we’ll have protection for Morneau in the line-up, power on the corners, infield D as good as the OF D, and serious depth. On paper we’ll look really good….that’s scary. Has Gardy ever had a WHOLE team that looked good on paper?
If Crede is signed both Harris and Buscher could be expendable with Macri as the utility guy along with Tolbert. Macri has a better glove than Harris.
I’ve been a Twins fan for 40 years. Been thru the near 100 per year loos seasons. Give the Twins credit for what they are…They are one of the better teams in this Division. They can win with what they have. A potential bad back is not worth $7 mill+ per year. If we get him, I says that’s great, but don’t be doom & gloom because the Twins have a good team. Changes don’t make a good off-season. Sometimes the moves are the moves not made.. Let’s play ball!!!
SteveL,
“Macri has a better glove than Harris.”
Macri had 23 errors in 89 games at Rochester last year.
Harris had 13 errors in 128 games (only two errors at 3B); so I am going to assume that was your own opinion.
Which teams are objecting?
The “some” LEN’s referring to are “some” on these boards.
Is this the point in the Eric Gagne negotiations, where Bill Smith left the room to get some coffee, and never returned?
I heard that Gagne was standing outside the Metrodome last night with a boombox over his head blaring Peter Gabriel.
SteveL: If Crede is signed, it would be wise to keep one of Buscher/Harris (preferably Harris) to serve as a backup in case of injury.
The other would be expendable.
Geno: the “he” to whom you’re referring is Ozzie; I thought you were talking about Crede. I don’t remember reading anything Ozzie wanting to play WITH Mauer and Morneau, but I think I get your point. He has in the past, heaped glowing praise on the Twins organization on the whole, in the way the team “plays the game.” I get that.
I have always been a fan of a healthy Joe Crede. Hopefully if he comes here he can stay healthy, because IMO there is nothing better than watching a very much above average defensive third baseman making plays down the line and gunning it to first, and if Crede does stay healthy you know that he is going to hit right around 25 to 30 home runs.
I don’t trust Cuddy to be a. healthy or b. power hitter, take your pick. Morneau has had to play with no protection and still carries the team. If Crede stays healthy, the signing increases the benefit as Morneau will get some pitches to hit. Look how Mauer does with Justin batting after him, 2 batting titles. Please, take a chance on another World Series.
Crede has something to prove this year and with M&M hitting in front of him he could have a monster year with all those RBI opportunities.
I think you sign 6 mill base + incentives. Not bad for a 1 year deal since we gave Livan 5mil last year. I love the idea of getting a 3B that will audition for a new contract and play his heart out. And I love it for the fact that we don’t give up players for him.
If he gets injured - well it was only a 1-yr contract for 6 mill (same as what we bailed on for Lamb for 2 years). And we still have Butcher/Harris as back-ups.
Name Games Errors
Harris 130 13
Buscher 98 14
Macri 89 23
Macri’s errors projected to 162 games would be 42 errors!!!
Holy crap!
Another thing to consider from Crede’s perspective:
If he and Boras are viewing this as a one year audition for a big contract next year, it would be much better to play in the AL central where he knows the pitchers, parks, etc. than to go to the NL with the Giants.
I think KB hit it on the head with the above statement. This is a great point that plays in the Twins’ favor and gets Crede to Minnesota. Plus, if Crede likes it with the Twins a new contract is negotiated. That is why Crede is a perfect fit.
Looks like the Twins might have another pitcher on their radar. Credit to MLB Trade Rumors for this quote:
“Here’s something I can’t believe I’m typing… can Dennis “Oil Can” Boyd make a Major League comeback at age 49? Oil Can hasn’t pitched since 1991, but claims his velocity is back up in the low 90s, and his curveball is back to form. He’s always dreamt of carrying on Satchel Paige’s legend and pitching into his 60s. Boyd’s quote:
“”I have nothing to lose, and all a major league team has to lose is 15 minutes,” said Boyd. “Give me 15 minutes and I’ll show I can still pitch. That’s all I want.”
“Give me 15 minutes and I’ll show I can still pitch. That’s all I want.”
That’s all he’s got.
After 15 minutes, it becomes a conditioning issue and “Oil Can” may go into cardiac arrest.
Even if Crede gets hurt, the only way the deal is a total loss is if he is out the whole season - especially if it’s an incentive laden contract.
When he’s healthy, the team would have plus plus defense and some pop to protect Morneau.
If he gets hurt, the team can just go back to Buscher/Harris.
Even if we knew beyond a doubt that he would get hurt and only play a half a season, this could still be a good pick up for the Twins.
Sign the guy up.
Old “Oil Can” got his nick name for slamming down the cans of beer in the old days if my memory serves. Wonder if he’s off the sauce or if it’s just the booze talking…… Meanwhile, I think quite a few FA will be signing contracts at less then they would like to have this week. The itch to get to ST & have some kind of paycheck must be strong. They can always hope that next year the purse strings will be a little looser!
Leave Smith alone. He’s waited until the supply of good talent well exceeds the demand. Why should any mid-market team be competing for free agents now in this economy when they’ll be more able to pick up better talent for less in May-June when ticket sales fall off a cliff?
yes!!
Its a done deal!!!!
Vikings1- you have a source for that?
he is BSing, there is nothing out there. Here would be my take it or leave it offer for Crede:
$4 mil guarenteed
$1 mil for every 25 games played
so total of 10$ mil of play 150+ games
could also add like 500,000$ for Allstar appearance and another 500 for gold glove and like a mil for MVP. could total up to 12$ if superstar player. but only risk 4 mil min.
Vikings 1 = “Vikings Won!” = Absolutely False!
i would say they have to upgrade cause they dont have enough punch in there lineup i am sick and tired of the twins penny pinching ways buscher and harris at third base ridiculous
just wanted to point out, not sure if anyone else did yet, in relation to all the 40-man roster and Rule V draft stuff.
Someone mentioned that if Aaron Hicks were available, all the MLB teams would jump all over him. Well he’s not on the 40 man roster, and thats not true (teams jumping on him) for this reason:
Rule V players have to remain on the MLB roster of the team that selects them for the ENTIRE season or he goes back to the original team. No team in MLB baseball would waste a roster spot on a guy who hasn’t even played single A ball yet. You protect guys who have a shot to play this year so teams don’t nab them, not your star prospects in low classes.
THRYLOS98
If the Twins sign Crede, Macri’s value to the team is next to nothing. Between Harris and Tolbert they would have the utility infielder spot covered. Buscher would become the 3b and 1b backup plan. If they suffer significant injuries to any of those players, sergio santos, tolleson, hughes, machado, would be available. Macri is the easy choice to be removed.
Crede is worth the risk for the Twins. They nearly won the pennant last year despite two glaring needs- 3rd base and a good reliever. Signing an aged reliever with an ERA just below 6 was not a solution! Crede has some risk but but could be golden.
If the Twins sign Crede, Macri’s value to the team is next to nothing.
I would say that his value is higher that Buscher’s because:
he can play more positions (actually 3B is his worse position)
he is right handed
he is younger
he has better career number’s than Buscher
he has some pop
btw, Santos is long gone
Don’t get your hopes up this year.Minnesota is COLD and so is your chance at the world series this year. 18 of my 50 saves will be against the Twinks this year. Feel my hunger. I’m BOBBY JENKS…… RHHOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRR!!!!!!!
“Well he’s not on the 40 man roster, and thats not true (teams jumping on him) for this reason..No team in MLB baseball would waste a roster spot on a guy who hasn’t even played single A ball yet. You protect guys who have a shot to play this year so teams don’t nab them, not your star prospects in low classes.”
The ACTUAL reason is that he is Twins property and no other team can touch him.
Just like the Twins can’t touch Matt Wieters of the Orioles who is not on their 40-man-roster and is protected anyway. Wieters will be the Orioles catcher THIS YEAR, will not be put on the 40-man-roster until he actually is put on the 25-man MLB roster some time this year.
And EVERY SINGLE TEAM IN MLB would cut loose their #40 player if there was a way to get Wieters.
Hicks is protected by rule.
If he wasn’t protected, he would be on the 40-man-roster now, and the Twins current #40 player would be gone.
The Twins have $1.75 million invested in him, and they would get rid of Korecky (in a heartbeat) to protect Hicks if it was necessary.
And all the other teams in MLB would cut their #40 player to add a Hicks or a Wieters if it were possible.
The 5:25PM post is mine.
The blog system bug has bitten me again.
what are the twins waiting for? i agree with adams proposal. it is a low risk, high reward a no brainer. if crede will sign that kind of a contract then you can be fo certain that his back is ok.
thrylos98, I concur. Korecky put on wavers & a two-for-one trade would be my guess (or young players not on 40 man roster to be picked up) if Crede is also signed.
RHHOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRR!!!!!!!!!
The 38th, 39th & 40th player on the Twins’ roster would be much higher on some teams, such as the Astro’s or Nationals IMO.
we definitely have some value there,at the 38-39-40 spots. if crede is signed,
what kind of reliever can we get?
coco,
Korecky would probably be the first to go (and that would help the situation in the AAA pen as well, where Delaney can close). I would not doubt that the delay with Ayala is because Smith has been trying to get a warm rookie-league body for him.
bob-The Twins have had a agreement with Crede for weeks now.They have held off announcing it so the bloggers on this board would have something to blog about(a bit of sarcasm for those who not know the difference)!
The signing of Joe Crede would provide a lot of depth for this team, and give them more potential for growth.
Harris can be the backup, and when Punto fails at SS, Harris and Tolbert will probably take over. If Crede gets hurt, Buscher who will have the opportunity to play everyday at AAA and improve on his fielding will be there ready to go.
Signing Crede means we only lose one player, and if we make that player Drew Butera, we shouldn’t lose him off the team, just the 40 man roster…
BCB,
Butera cannot be removed from the 40 man roster before the start of the season, since he was added to be protected in the rule 5 draft.
BCB-define failing at short!
thrylos,
I did not know that rule. I always suspected they added him to the 40 man roster just to protect an open spot for a free agent. I didn’t really believe they liked him for anything… That gives me a little less faith in Bill Smith’s ability.
Geno…
I define Nick Punto’s ability in general as degrees of failure, but to be honest and serious… I worry because Nick Punto when handed the 3rd base job proceeded to produce (Until August 21st of that season) the 8th worst offensive season in Modern major league history (he was at .191 until September when all the pressure was off, and he raised his batting average slightly over the mendoza line.) I consider that entire season a failure on Ron Gardenhire, and fear that Punto who is a GREAT backup player might not be able to handle being a front runner… Just like Terry Ryan couldn’t handle it. Some people are better at being a backup, and an underdog. It’s no sin, but Punto hitting .224 and an OB% of .241 by June 1st… a good sign that he’s a failure.
BCB,
“That gives me a little less faith in Bill Smith’s ability.”
If you think Bill Smith evaluates the players, (rather than the Scouting Department) then I have a little less faith in your understanding of the MLB Organizations.
BCB-define a little less faith in Bill Smith’s ability,considering you have NO faith in his ability now!
Generally speaking, who is a better defensive option in terms of backing up Morneau at 1B???
I do believe I remember some Mikey Lamb rumbling, bumbling and stumbling action over there for a few games last year.
And I think Buscher started a couple games there as well???
I’m thinking that having the ability to give Morneau some more days off throughout the year will pay dividends.
Actually, Butera is evaluated by the Field Staff, including the minor league managers and coaches.
Bill Smith simply follows their suggestions.
For Bill Smith to use his own player evaluations, would be like you repairing your own computer, instead of trusting experts who actually do it for a living.
Oh, and your choice is between Harris and Buscher, of course.
zwiefz says:
BEST blog on here!
BCB-I agree that Punto best position is super sub,but that’s not really the point is it.You haved ripped Punto for two years now and BS and TR before him.As sane has stated ,some posters have pre-conceived notions of how things should be and only take in data that backs up their pre-conceived notions. Does Punto have to hit 400 to please you?
jku,
For Harris to play 1B would waste a good arm.
For Buscher to play 1B would hide a bad arm.
Buscher is a better choice at 1B.
Geno,
After reading the comments from LaVelle, signing Crede, actually making a real legit offer to Crede is a sign that I should have more faith in Bill Smith than I do.
Having Bill Smith being in charge of an organization that values a catcher with no offensive ability more than Erik Lis, Sosa, Pino, or some of the other players in the minors left off the 40 man roster (considering we already had Mauer - baby jesus, Redmond, Ramos, and Morales
I honestly believed they put Butera on the 40 man roster knowing that they could take him off, and no one would bother to take him. He will maybe someday be a great minor league bullpen catcher… or a coach. I am not even trying to be mean. It just makes no sense to have a back up/3rd string catcher in the minors on the 40 man roster
Sign Crede anyone who says he cannot play is an idiot……….. The twins need to make moves another power hitter to the lineup would be better then what we have now……. It’s better then Lamb or Bautista.
“It just makes no sense to have a back up/3rd string catcher in the minors on the 40 man roster”
Butera caught 96 out of 140 games for New Britain.
That would make him the starting catcher.
I can’t believe they add Butera to the 40 man roster. Smith needs to be fired immediately!!!!!
Geno,
I will always have a dislike for Punto as a starting player. But I am not nearly as difficult as you give me credit for.
If he hits .285 again with an increased onbase percentage to about .345 I would be more than satisfied. He’s capable of it, but can he do it consistantly?
Can he make the consistant routine plays, and not dive headfirst into 1st base, getting picked off 1st base… it’s those stupid things that drive me nuts.
why use that spot on a 3rd minor league catcher? it doesnt make sense and honestly he doesnt seem to be on many teams’ radar.
sane,
Looking at Butera’s numbers he produced… I don’t care how many games he played. It’s just my opinion. Butera doesn’t seem to have what it takes to be a major league player. I think he’s a very capable defensive catcher, and could someday hopefully be a Dave Duncan… maybe a pitching coach, or a manager someday, but when the team already has 4 catchers protected on the 40 man roster Butera doesn’t make sense to me.
“But I am not nearly as difficult as you give me credit for.”
You’re too modest.
Jair Fernandez has a better shot of being a major league player than Butera (knowing he didn’t need to be on the 40 man roster excuse)… so looking through the Twins Catchers in general… Butera is 6th or 7th on the depth chart for potential?
Bruno…
I was making a joke.
BC,
Butera is certainly a defense-first (defense-only?) catcher.
But many catchers have made careers of that.
Remember Wes Westrum, Tim Laudner, Jerry Zimmerman and Jim Hegan?
Generally speaking, who is a better defensive option in terms of backing up Morneau at 1B???
Cuddyer. He can give him some rest against RHP. One of the 5 OF will be on the bench anyways. The projected starters at C, 1B, DH, LF are all lefties. That’s why you need a righty/SH and not Buscher on the bench.
And Taylor Teagarden of Texas? (Longhorns and Rangers)
Sane,
Laudner could hit the ball over the fence a little bit.
And I agree with you that others like Butera have made it. When you have Mauer, Redmond, Morales, and Ramos on the 40 man roster… it just seems like a waste of space on the 40 man roster. I am not saying he serves no purpose for the team… but there are players I would have rather seen on the 40 man roster.
I didn’t know about the start of the season rule… that is 100% my fault. Because I didn’t see a rational reason to keep Butera on the 40 man… I thought it was a brilliant move by the Twins so they could hide an open spot on the 40 man for a free agent. On that one I gave Bill Smith and gang too much credit.
Thrylos,
I agree, Cuddyer would be the best bet to backup Morneau if something went down. I think that Kubel should try to get some ground balls at 1st base as well because you never know when some extra inning game in the NL could happen and really screw things up, lol.
Sane,
The Wes Westrum reference was classic. If that’s the guy I’m thinking about I have a 1956 Topps card of his.
Boras did not get his reputation as an agent for nothing.
I am suspicious that he comments when it is to his players benefit, and he certainly would know how to manipulate circumstances to his own and players benefit too.
He encourages more teams to join the bidding, invites fans to get involved in the player, etc.
That is all to his benefit, to start a groundswell of opinion which is more money to his player.
We might get Crede, but I would leave it to the Twins to determine whether the value of this player exceeds his worth on the field.
BC,
The reason Butera was put on the 40-man roster was because the Twins thought he might be selected in Rule V.
And since no other position players were lost, the Twins may have been correct in protecting Butera.
If Jose Lugo sticks with the Mariners, then maybe they should have protected him, but its difficult to know, in advance, whom the other teams want.
Re: the catcher situation:
this is not a dept chart, but a list of all minor league catchers in the Twins organization, with career minor league slash lines and 2008 percentage of runners caught steeling ranked by career OPS:
Soto .272/.336/.524 (.860 OPS) 29% CS
Lanning .255/.345/.441 (.786 OPS) 19% CS
Ramos .288/.344/.435 (.779 OPS) 43% CS
Pinto .238/.348/.359 (.707 OPS) 17% CS
Morales .283/.328/.377 (.705 OPS) 31% CS
Rams .240/.305/.398 (.703 OPS) 30% CS
Fernandez .244/.325/.338 (.663 OPS) 46% CS
Jang .250/.304/.354 (.658 OPS) 21% CCS
Lehmann .237/.334/.314 (.648 OPS) 52% CS
Yersich .242/.295/.346 (.641 OSP) 29% CS
Butera .215/.303/.324 (.627 OPS) 50% CS
Palacios .246/.314/.299 (.613 OPS) 38% CS
de San Miguel .211/.311/.297 (.608 OPS) 25% CS
Christy .224/.313/.285 (.598 OPS) 31% CS
Rohlfing .214/.306/.286 (.592 OPS) 16% CS
Arias .229/.311/.267 (.578 OPS) 43% CS
BC,
When I was a little kid, I remember Wes Westrum catching Hoyt Wilhelm with the Giants when the other catchers couldn’t lay a glove on the knuckler.
And then he would bat about .211.
Sane,
agreed for the most part. I just think that it was a hell of a risk to put a 5th catcher on 40.
I just want Crede on this roster, and I think I’ve shown my willingness to admit when I’m wrong (Span, Nathan, being two of my biggest mistakes on here). So if I am wrong about Crede I will apologize, but I have always looked at mistakes of effort being much better than mistakes of not trying. Crede would be a great attempt at improving, and a forgivable sin. Being out 5-10 million dollars is not that horrible of a risk.
BC,
I’m with you all the way on Crede.
As long as the Twins have money left over to do the other necessary things, like signing draft choices.
Catcher is a defensive position in the majors (as are the other middle of the field positions SS, 2B, CF). The Twins are lucky to have an offensive catcher so they can carry a low power corner outfielder (Span). The problem is that their is no power in 3B; and when Redmond starts the Twins lack power in 2 of the 5 traditional power spots.
As long as the Twins have money left over to do the other necessary things, like signing draft choices
this is an interesting view point. Here is a curve: Let’s say that an unsigned class A free agent (Hudson/Cruz) is unsigned mid-spring training. Let’s assume that the signing bonus of the Twins first round pick is around a million and Hudson or Cruz are willing to accept an one million one year contract. What would be the smart think to do? Sign a first round draft pick or one of them?
thrylos98,
I think the Twins sign both the FA and the first-rounder, but it may prevent signing one or two lower draft picks.
That may cost them later, or not, since all draft picks are uncertainties.
However, if you repeatedly let high draft picks escape, you are most certainly going to get burned overall.
Thrylos… lacking power is something the Twins are great at.
Below average power in all 3 outfield spots, SS, 3B, and Catcher. Casilla showed a little more pop than everyone expected, and I am not sure you are the numbers guru here, but I think Kubel was atleast decent compared to the average DH in baseball.
They did however defy the odds, and win without power last year… so it’s possible… just really unlikely that they hit with RISP like that again.
sane,
both is not a choice: if they sign one of them, they will lose their 1st rounder.
BC,
If the BA w/RISP goes down, the Twins can compensate with improved OBP, BA, SLG (doubles & triples), stolen bases, bunting, hit & run and baserunning.
And the pitching and defense can certainly be improved
Sane,
I agree, except for one small thing.
When it comes down to big games the Twins offense needs multiple hits to score runs (for the most part)… Most of the rest of major league baseball can capitalize on one mistake which in a tight ball game might be all that you get.
The talent level for everyday MLB players or pitchers certainly does NOT go 40 players deep on the Twins’ roster. It would if you included the young players not yet needed to be covered. There will be very little trouble asking for waivers on a couple/ three. BS will try to spin a player or two if the opportunity arises. That’s his job. IMO the Twins’ talent judgment is at least league average, if not better. Thank goodness Spring Training starts tomorrow. It’s been a loooooong winter where I live!
thrylos98,
OK.
Your game..your rules.
Sign the #1 draft choice and 86 the FA.
Then hope that another wave of Span, Casilla, Liriano, Baker, Slowey, Blackburn, Perkins, Mijares, and Gomez clones compensates for it.
BC,
Yes, sometimes power saves you when you can’t string hits together. (White Sox)
And sometimes stringing hits together saves you when you can’t hit HR’s. (Twins)
There are a million ways to win (and lose) baseball games.
Thrylos98, IMO the Twins would NOT give up a 1st round pick for a ONE year rental of a player even if for “only” $1 million. Now if that player agreed to a 3-year low-priced contract that might be a different decision.
Sane & Thrylos:
I am just a big fan of actually going for the title, and the Twins in general are very hesitant about that sort of thing. I would not have thought twice about signing Juan Cruz or Orlando Hudson to 3-4 year contracts giving up a 1st round pick and using that signing money to play for a shot at a WS right now.
The problem with the draft… is that we have to wait years for those players to mature, and be ready to win, and if I have my choice of signing Crede, or signing the 34th round pick, and some other late round guys… I would not hesitate.
Crede or 34th rounder is a no-brainer.
Signing the 34th rounder costs the same as a cup of coffee, with virtually no chance he will be worth that cup of coffee.
Sign Crede!
Sane,
By having a nice mix of power and speed like the Twins could do if adding Crede, and one or both of Cuddyer and Young do their thing… The Twins would have balance of youth, age, left/right, speed, and power…
all with defense, and pitching.
That would be a great TEAM. The Twins are all about team… make it great all the way around and life gets fun in Minnesota in 2009… we could possibly say goodbye to the dome with WS number 4, and hopefully our 3rd win.
(damn it, now I’m feeling weird… this hope thing is painful. I can see why the republicans got so freaked out by it, and this is just baseball!)
If the FA signing means that the Twins have to draft Chris Parmelee, instead of Aaron Hicks, because they don’t have the signing bonus for Hicks, then IMO:
@#$%@#$% the FA signing!
BUT, this year, signing Crede for a reasonable amount, would not send the Twins back to the discount draft choices.
BCB, your knowledge about Butera’s talents, and especially where Butera fits in among all the catchers in the system, is nothing short of remarkable. That you know where he should rank relative to Jair Fernandez, sight unseen, is almost unfathomable. The Twins have all these scouts, all these managers and coaches, all this game tape, hours and hours of personal observations by people paid to be good at this stuff, and yet they can’t hold a candle to you. Wow.
A good fielding RH 3B with some power would help balance the Twin’s lineup. If not Crede, hopefully someone else.
Birdofprey…
having an opinion is still legal correct? Looking at the numbers throughout their minor league careers, and being a fan for a very long time… I think I can make an educated guess as to players’ talent levels.
You seem to have an opinion of me, or at least my opinion… if I am not allowed… then I think silence from you would be more than golden. It would be justice.
On that note… I need to go pick up dogfood or I am in trouble with the wife… and I know her opinion matters a lot more than any of ours on baseball.
Goodnight guys… hopefully tomorrow we celebrate Crede, and at the draft… we don’t have to fret Paralee type picks!
Goodnight Sane, and thanks as always Thrylos…
Just trying to help you out a little, BCB. You’re awfully quick to discredit the opinions of others, aren’t you? So, go ahead, carry on. It’s perfectly legal for you to have opinions, no matter how much more you value them than is justified. And if any of your opinions is about how worthless someone else’s opinion is, for example Bill Smith’s, that’s legal, too, isn’t it? Just try to be big enough to take a challenge, OK? Especially when you’re being challenged about a subject where others may in fact have a worthy opinion as well. Example? OK, Drew Butera. Another? Nick Punto. Another? You get the drift?
jkucenic, the Twins have Cuddyer who can backup Morneau at first, thus aslo giving some playing time to Young
I think Butera was put on the 40 man, despite not being a real prospect due to his hitting, because:
1. there’s a general shortage of catching throughout professional baseball
2. Butera’s the closest to MLB-ready defensively in the Twins system, and would be the most likely call up should the Twins need a catcher this year for a short period, regardless of what he would hit
3. a real possibility that some other team without a catcher ready defensively would like to stash Butera in the minors, as insurance, just as the Twins have done
Butera’s probably never gonna have a regular job in the big leagues, but he is good enough defensively already to hold his own for a couple weeks if necessary.
That’s why I think Macri’s the first to leave the 40 man, followed probably by Jones or Korecky. Macri’s nothing but roster filler even without Crede.
But we’ll see soon enough.
Just trying to help you out a little, BCB. You’re awfully quick to discredit the opinions of others, aren’t you?
I know BCB’s a big boy and can defend himself, and I don’t mean to put words in his mouth, but I would like to point out that BCB wasn’t discrediting ANY other poster’s opinion–just offering his own–until you showed up, bird. And jumped right into the conversation and immediately began discrediting BCB rather than offering your own opinion.
New post is up.
Can’t wait to read the reaction…
Was the guy who insanely put Butera on the 40 man roster the same guy who acquired Livan, Lamb, Monroe, Everett and Eddie G. last year and made two horrible trades with the Rays and Mets? I hope it wasn’t Sleepy Bill who was responsible for that gem of wisdom.
[…] LENIII of the Star Tribune said, for the first time, that he thought that the Twins had a good shot at getting Crede. He made a […]
I may be a dreamer but I have a feeling Bill Smith is going to surprise Twins fans with two big moves in the next week or two.
First, Bill is going to work out a $6M deal plus incentives for Crede in 09 plus an option for 2010.
Then Bill is going to work his magic using the new rules for Type A free agents. Juan Cruz from the Astros without giving up a type “A” pick.
