Crede, Ayala, Souhan - and other popular names…
Posted on February 18th, 2009 – 9:14 AMBy La Velle
Heard last night that the Twins and Joe Crede are at an impasse. Sounds like the Twins are sticking to their guns and want Crede to lower his price.
I have asked a few players in recent days about adding Crede, and there seems to be a lot of support for the Buscher-Harris platoon. Buscher has crushed the ball in batting practice here. And many believe that third base is Harris’ best position - and a player who is more comfortable in the field might be more comfortable at the plate.
The Giants, who told one of their writers a couple day ago that they though Crede was headed to the Twins, are still monitoring the situation.
The Twins today are expected to make the Luis Ayala signing official. That means we’ll find out who is coming off the 40-man roster to make room for him.
Jim Souhan has arrived to take our coverage to the next level. And if you check our main page, I have submitted (with the help of photog Jerry Holt) the first of several video reports from Fort Myers. Check our website for more reports down the road - and I hope my face doesn’t make you sleep with the light on!
Denard Span and Delmon Young have reported. In fact, it looks like the whole team is here. That’s pretty impressive, considering the first full-squad workout isn’t until Saturday.
And, in case you were wondering, there won’t be an exhibition game against Concordia this year. Bummer.
250 Responses to "Crede, Ayala, Souhan - and other popular names…"
I’m torn on Crede,too bad his agent is Boras, otherwise he might sign for less.
Thanks LEN. It has sounded like the Giants were no longer interested in Crede which makes one wonder who else is besides the Twins.
So La Velle what are you trying to say to us about Buscher?? Sounds more and more like you want the platoon with him and Harris and forget Crede?? In my opinion it all boils down to price because it would give us more depth for sure. On the other hand I really like Buscher and if he can crank out 15 this year everyone would be happy.
Len, what is your take on what they will do with Humber?
If Buscher wasn’t such a defensive liability and he’s lefthanded and the Twin’s need righthanded power. See Kubel, Morneau, Mauer,
Harris is a utility player too me fill in at 3b, SS, and 2b and give the regulars a day off. Never going to hit for power but does take professional AB’s
souhan arrives let the dy bashing begin!
have you ever heard anyone say he sure doesn’t hit well in bp?
The problem with the platoon is that the better hitter and fielder won’t play as much, because he is RH and EVERYONE KNOWS you should use the righty lefty thing to make all major managerial decisions.
La Velle
Do you think there is anything to this sign and trade involving Cruz, D- Backs, and Twins?? It looks like this could be opening up a huge can of worms as far as compensation for a class A free agent. It may happen down the road (2010) or later this year if there are a lot of still unsigned free agents. What do you think?
Crede is not worth 7-8 million plus incentives, period..Just look at his career stats. Yes, he hit 30 hr’s one season..but his OBP is bad….for the price of 7-8 mil..he is just not worth that much.
If the Giants are no longer interested in Crede, then why should the Twins come up to his asking price? With full confidence in Harris and a newer, stronger Buscher, the ball is in Crede- and Boras’s- court right now. Maybe they should have agreed sooner rather then wait for Buscher to get a chance to start impressing at Spring Training.
Maybe Scott Boras has told Joe Crede NOT to look at any newspaper so he does not find out what happened to poor Eric Gagne!
I agree with Brian. Crede would be a great pick-up from a fielding perspective and his bat might be really good. But if they are asking for a large guarantee it is a bad deal. Has to be heavily incentive driven.
Marty Cordova came to camp one year, ripped, and hit the snot out of the ball…until April 4th. A little too early to pronounce Buscher a transformed player.
LaVelle - why aren’t they looking at Hudson? He’s gone on record looking for 4-5 mil a year now. Throw Casilla to SS and put Punto/Harris at 3B. The guy’s an on-base machine - not to mention the glove. He’s more “the Twins way” than Crede and less risk/money. Why isn’t this getting more play?
Are Bonser or Humber tradeable? Usually when a player w/o options is shopped in Spring Training, it seems like teams are willing to wait for their waiver claim. Would the Twins get anything more than a Player-to-be-named?
About Souhan’s article saying the Twins need to do “something.” Doing “something” just to do “something” is not why a trade should be made. I’d love to see Crede, Beltre, or Blake in a Twins uniform. BUT, if you have to give up good future talent it’s not worth it. If you make a hole somewhere else it’s no worth it. I would say the Garza/Bartlett for Young/Harris deal was “something” but not necesarily good. We left a hoe at short and our pitching staff would be deep. I applaud the front office for not doing “something” for “something’s” sake or to give the fans something to chew on.
Hudson = #1 draft pick has a lot to do with that.
I find it hard to believe that Boras is allowing Crede to lose time in ANY camp. The guy is a Grade A idiot - he has to be losing money for his client by the day. There is no bidding war.
As much as I’d like to see Crede in camp, I can’t say I blame the Twins for not letting Boras make them look like fools with a $7mm guarantee in this market. I’d put an offer out there, give them 24-48 hours to accept it and then walk away. Boras wins when he gets teams to play his silly games.
Send a video to Boras, showing Harris and Buscher pounding the ball. Then super-impose Buscher’s face over Harris’s face, throwing the ball to first.
Twins are playing the Crede situation right. We are not desperate for a third baseman, but should explore an option like that if feasible.
Forget Crede, go after Juan Cruz!! Shorten the game to 7 innnings.
We had 3 #1 picks last year - it wouldn’t kill them to give one up this year when a guy like Hudson is out there for Punto money.
Gregor… funny. Good work.
Ummmm…So we are supposed to give up hopes of upgrading at 3b because a guy is killing the ball during a batting practice session?? Is he killing the ball during hit Morneau chest level with a throw practice yet??
I’m starting to not care anymore about Crede. It’s killing brain cells. I’m actually way more intrigued about bringing Cruz in and unloading some folks in a trade.
28th!
How many pitchers are supporting Brian Busherror.
Probably ZERO
It’s a smart move by the Twins to play up Buscher and Harris in the press. If you’re trying to get Crede to come down in price, one of the best ways is to say “we’ll be happy to go into the season with what we’ve got”.
jku: It’s time to “give up hope” on upgrading at 3B because the only options are to grossly overpay for Crede or grossly overvalue Beltre in a trade…and THEN grossly overpay Beltre to waive the NTC.
I suppose Kouz or Atkins are outside chances, but Kouz is having surgery if I recall…and last I heard Atkins was Slowey/Span as a starting price.
31st!
Of course there’s a lot of support for Buscher/Harris. What are their teammates going to do, say “we’d like Crede more than these guys that we’re stuck with”?
I support bush hair platoon.
I get that T…Just highlighting that just because a guy is killing the ball in batting practice shouldn’t stop the team from actively engaging in negotiations with Crede to see if something can be worked out.
I don’t really understand why price is even an issue, this team has millions it could spend if it wanted to. SO you take a gamble on aguy like Crede. Worst case scenario it doesn’t pan out. What is different about that and the other slugs we have rolled through here in last few years. Batista and Lamb. Lets just be honest, Crede is in a completely different category from those guys. If healthy he could easily hit 25-30 Hr’s. And he has a good glove. I just don’t get the logic. Quite trying to talk us out of thinking that is a good option. It gets really old. The way this game as gotten it is completely evident it is all about business, I think we can get past the part about feeling bad or hurting someones feelings. In fact go sign Orlando Hudson, move Casilla to short, Sign Crede and go make the sign and trade with Cruz happen.
JC, I’m with you on the take it or leave it offer. My guess is they have already made their best offer and have given Crede a Friday deadline. Get off the pot, Crede, one way or the other.
Man….Concordia was looking good this year too! Nuts…
Jake: you were 30th.
Big D: you were 34th.
and like I said…I’m now starting to give up hope by default. I’m kinda migrating into the camp of thinking Joe Crede might not be the best addition if he really thinks he is going to get $7 mill guaranteed.
So, I am now starting to daydream about Cruz in a Twins uni. That would be a bigger/better upgrade anyways, but seems tricky to pull off.
Crede will blink soon. He’s got a few more days to bluff but he’s going to blink because he has to play this year so he can cash in on a multi-year deal for next year. If he plays well he could get a 4yr-$40M type deal next year.
“I don’t really understand why price is even an issue”
It’s called payroll integrity, AG.
AG-the thing that is frustrating is that they DO have money but they are spending it on almost washed up and washed up players (see, tony batista, Bret Boone) Yea, Crede is in a different category and he could hit 30 homeruns, IF HEALTHY. The fact is, he isn’t. I do agree that we should go for him but then what happens mid-season when he gets hurt and now Buscher/Harris have been riding pine and don’t have their swing or their glove?
Another interesting part to this story is that Gagne (another Boras client) signed a minor league deal with the Brewers yesterday. The Twins were correct in pulling out of that deal and i think boras better pull his head out and lower the demand for guaranteed money.
Doesn’t everyone “crush” the ball in batting practice?
I used to think Crede would blink, but now I’m not so sure. This guy is either out to lunch (figuratively) or just completely under the dark shadow of a one Scott Boras.
It would be fascinating to find out what he really thinks about this, in collaboration with the advice Boras is giving him.
Can we give up on Beltre waiving his NT clause…he and Crede are both Boras clients. I just want them to sign Crede because I am tired of reading about him…and while they are at it, sign Frank Thomas for about $300,000 and let him DH and play 1B twice per month to rest Morneau.
What I still don’t understand about all of this, in relation to Crede and Boras, is how they can EXPECT to sign for MORE money than what he made LAST year when the guy DIDN’T EVEN PLAY, and it is still not known if his back is 100% to go for THIS season.
As far as I’m concerned, the Twins are taking the right approach here, even though he is the obvious solution to their 3B and Right handed hitting problems from the guys that are available.
The Twins have whats left of the 3B market cornered and Boras isn’t helping his client make ANY money this season by demanding so much for potentially damaged goods. I can understand that you both want to be satisfied, but face it, he’s not worth what your asking to anybody right now because of his situation, and thats NOT GOING TO CHANGE. If he earns his money by his play (wth an incentive laden contract), AWESOME, but don’t expect to get paid like the player you WERE when you miss a whole year with a relatively MAJOR injury. Agents are idiots.
You know, I saw that Frank Thomas was looking for work, and could sign a minor-league deal and thought about the Twins.
Makes sense in some way, but when you look at the roster, with a crowded outfield, Kubel, and some bench players, I’m not sure who he replaces.
Please don’t sign Crede. I like the platton option better, and I think Harris will eventually take the job full-time. Save the money and sign Baker, Liriano and Mauer to longer deals. Crede is one twist or turn from the DL (BUYER BEWARE).
“Doesn’t everyone “crush” the ball in batting practice?”
Absolutely!
The players’ jaws used to drop in amazement when Jason Tyner and Nick Punto would “crush” the ball over the infield during batting practice.
what the hell is payroll integrity? This is BASEBALL. The goal is to win games. Crede gives us a better chance to win games at 3b than either Buscher/Harris.
It’s 7 Million. We’re spending way less money than we did a few years ago.
Sure it’s somewhat of a gamble but if it pays off then we can officially say that we have a very solid team….
and so Gagne signed a minor-league deal, how much do you think the Twins would have offered him? Boras probably lost Gagne at least 3 Mil for this year. Doesn’t sound like a good agent to me…
Just because he’s hitting the ball out of the park in batting practice doesn’t mean he’ll do it it games against real pitchers. I don’t want Buscher and his 4 homeruns playing 3rd base this year.
Sign Crede you cheapos. You got you new ballpark with added revenue and higher attendance this season.
If Bill Smith signs Crede I’ll even send him a box of Twinkies or Doughnuts…his choice.
JayTEE do you really think Big Frank could really play first base? He is a DH only who is the biggest base clogger maybe of all time.
If I thought the Twins would make do with an 11 man pitching staff, I’d be all for bringing Thomas in to be a RH hitting DH and PH for next to nothing in salary. But since the Twins seem married to 12 pitchers, there just isn’t room for a guy who can’t do anything defensively except maybe play 1B on rare occasions.
As for what Crede thinks… the fact that he’s apparently more concerned about how much of a guaranteed salary he’s going to get than being willing to accept something heavier on incentives tells me that he’s not all that confident that he’s going to be/stay healthy himself. Big bright red flag, if you ask me.
55th. LPN will crush first base with his face.
Frank Thomas to DH? Well that would make the Kubel signing look a little silly. I think the Twins medical staff is not 100% convinced of his health and that the Twins may have pulled the $5 million and Boras is trying to get that deal back.
Cruz would be great but I can’t see how all the other teams who have already spent their money won’t go ballistic because they didn’t want to give up a draft pick. But we’re talking about a draft pick - how many of those are panning out? Umm. . . Cuddyer, I’m talking to you. ..
Frank takes ABs away from Kubel, no thanks.
JC,
You are correct.
Crede may realize that he needs a big payday THIS year, because he may require a career change NEXT year.
sign Frank Thomas for about $300,000 and let him DH and play 1B twice per month to rest Morneau.
how about a better option (and 300K is below league minimum). Sign Nomar Garciaparra for that role who will probably put better numbers that Thomas (and as a matter of fact the last 3 years put better numbers than Crede). He can fill in at 3B, 1B and RH DH and send Buscher to the minors. I’d rather see a Harris/Nomar combination at third, than a Buscher/Harris. And it will probably take just 1-2 million.
You can talk about baseball being a ‘business’ or whatever all you want.
But the fact is NOBODY in MLB is willing to pay Crede the 7 mil right now, or he would have signed already, so why should the Twins fold their cards when they know they’ve got the house beat?
You don’t just sign a guy to sign a guy, how do think the other guys on the team would feel if they signed him for 7 Mil and he sucked it up or didn’t play?
In my opinion every contract in sports should be incentive driven. Thats how it works in most jobs, you are rewarded for the job you do. In baseball, your job is to Hit, Field the ball, and win games.
In the real world you have to earn your money, why can’t it be the same in sports?
It would make for way better competition in my opinion, because everyone would try that much harder so they get paid.
Nomar wont leave west coast.
While I believe the Twins should sign Crede (20+ HR, 80+ RBI potential/All-Star/Silver Slugger/World Series Champion), it seems smart for the Twins to hold out for less at this point. The market does not seem to be very competitive, and the Twins do have a fall back option (not a great one, but certainly adequate; better than the Batista, Punto, Cirillo, Cuddyer options of the past). I don’t believe Crede wants to play for the Giants. He knows the Central Division, the pitchers, the ball parks. Boras really needs to understand that this year will be Crede’s chance to prove his back is not a problem. Bring back Crede of 2006, and Crede will certainly be gone signing a long term deal with another team. In the meantime, the Twins can develop their young talent (Valencia or Hughes). Lets hope for something around $5 million plus incentives.
If Crede and Frank Thomas are a match, they can be vertebrae transplant donors for each other while on the Twins Disabled List.
Kirbyelway: I was at the Twins-Oakland playoff game in 2006 where Frank Thomas hit two homeruns and maybe it is still seared into my brain. I think he has hit more than 50 home runs off Twins pitching.
“what the hell is payroll integrity? This is BASEBALL.”
It’s also a $1B business. Payroll integrity is a business practice adhered to by most well-run businesses. It’s harder to execute in baseball than in banking, but that’s not going to stop the Twins organization from attempting to maintain some semblance of it.
That’s great news about Buscher. Now if we can only play every game in the batting cage, there’s no stopping us!!
[…] Twins Insider – […]
I’d put the Crede to Twins % at about 80%.
I’d put Cruz to Twins at about 20%. As others have said, if this loophole is opened, others will by for Cruz too. However, since Cruz would have to agree to the terms, he’d likely be talking to one team about terms, and given LEN’s early scoop on the issue, I’d guess the Twins have the best shot. So maybe 30%.
Now, the trifecta I’d like to see, for (7+5+2=) $14million dollars–Crede-Pedro-Cruz–I’d put that at about 0.05%.
“payroll integrity” means one player’s contract affects what others will hold out for: “You guys paid Crede SEVEN MILLION and his back wasn’t even 100%”.
JayTEE Yes, he has killed the Twins in the past. But, Big Franky is like 84 yrs old with world class speed (ala Cecil Fielder). I just think the big man is cooked.
Frankly, if the Twins are indeed at an impasse with Crede, I would probably start talking to Hudson’s agent (it isn’t Boras, too, is it?)
Costing a draft pick plus the 8 figure salary he was looking for in November is one thing… but a draft pick plus what the market is for his services now? Yeah… worth looking in to if Crede and Boras are locked in to their fantasyland.
I’m sure whomever is pitching batting practice to Buscher is not left-handed.
The longer that Crede holds out, the longer and better look the Twins will get in order to evaluate Harris2009, Buscher2009, Tolbert2009 and all the other in-house talent.
I say pay the money to Crede, a third baseman that can hit more than 30 hr’s, is easily worth what he’s asking and more.
Give me an either/or choice of Crede or Cruz, and I pick Cruz. Don’t you?
so just a question, anybody else’s page coming up with someone else’s name for their posts?
Mine just popped up AaronK as my name, complete with email address and everything (which ‘will not be published’) according to the STrib blog…
Completely agree JimCrikket…Why not take a dip into the Hudson pool….The Royals don’t have the payroll room for him, but the Twins do. Worth the pick.
Hudson seems like a “Twins/Gardenhire kinda guy” if you know what I mean, and I think you do.
Souhan and Delmon can’t coexist in the same Baseball Complex.
Someone will have to leave town, soon.
Thomas kills the ball in the Dome. PH him in late innings and PR Tolbert. I like that HR possibility!
Thrylos posted Crede’s career numbers at the Metrodome and they were not pretty. Even if healthy we can not expect him to hit close to 30 homeruns a season at the much bigger Metrodome. His career numbers at his home park against us is a different story but that is known as a hitters park.
bop; using the banking industry as an example of payroll integrity is maybe a bad example.
I am SHOCKED that the Twins are at an impasse in signing a FA. SHOCKED.
This situation is a pretty good barometer to judge the ability of Bill Smith. Given the negotiations that having been taking place with Scott Boras, we can all agree that the Twins front office has decided it wants Crede. Given that there doesn’t appear to be much of a market for the guy, Smith seems to be playing it pretty well so far by not overpaying. But that’s only half the battle. He still needs to find a way to get the deal done. Considering they were offering Casey Blake 2 yrs at $14 million with a 3rd year club option, I think Joe Crede would be worth 1 yr/$6 million plus a possible $2 million in incentives. In short, no more than $8 million for 1 year. That’s a very fair price. If the Giants are dumb enough to go higher than that (which I don’t think they are), they can have him.
Save the money and sign Baker, Liriano and Mauer to longer deals.
Couldn’t they use the money they saved LAST year and sign Baker, Liriano and Mauer to longer deals?
Jim C and sane you guys read my mind I was thinking the same thing about Crede. I think it’s one of two things either he’s worried like you said or Boras and Crede are %100 postive he will have another all star year. The problem with incentive heavy contracts is it gives the team more control.
When Punto becomes his normal self as a starter and we bench him for harris were all gonna wish we had crede, the guy will hit 20+ homers and play great D, buscher maybe hits 8-10 hrs and cant play D, if we can waste 4 million on punto, we can pay 5-7 with incentives for crede, we payed 5+ million for l. hernandez and 3+ for m. lamb, spend a little money and take a chance on someone that may actually help
Chris, you just sent Mike Wants Wins into a catatonic state when you said 8 million for Crede. Try to be more subtle.
Garciaparra is a groin pull/tear waiting to happen. 4 full seasons out of 13, none since ‘03(hmmm), not going to happen.
Joe Crede would be hit more like 17-22 home runs for us but home runs are not really that big of deal.
First off, I was one of the first to urge the Twins to sign Crede to an incentive laden contract with a modest guarantee. I would love to see him as a Twin if for nothing else to keep him from batting against us. His record against us is in”Crede”ible.
BUT… if he is so full of promise, why aren’t the White Sox re-signing him when they have an unsettled position at 3rd this year? Do they know something?
capcom, you notice that your $5mil is what Boras wants the Twins to settle at for guaranteed $$. That was their initial asking range a month ago; they bumped their range to $7mil to make $5mil look better. You played into their hand. I think the Twins are smart and sticking to their $3-4mil with incentives up to $7-9mil.
That said, I would like to see Crede here for the Twins price. Otherwise, I’d be happy seeing what Harry/Buschy can do, and sign Mauer through 2014.
backrow…I frankly think a part of the reason why the Sox have no interst in bringing back Crede has something to do with cutting ties with Boras…One less Boras guy to deal with. No joke.
“if we can waste 4 million on punto,” “5+ million for l. hernandez and 3+ for m. lamb, we can pay 5-7 with incentives for crede…spend a little money and take a chance”
Logic says that, after wasting $12 million, we probably SHOULDN’T spend a little money and take a chance, because we have already pissed away too much money.
Its better to ignore the past, when asking the Twins to “spend a little money and take a chance”
This is ridiculous. Do the damn deal. Oh wow, Buscher has been crushing the ball in batting practice. What can you take from that? Nothing! Crede was apparently doing great in his workouts in Arizona too, but we won’t really know how good he is until he proves it on the field in a meaningful game. With all that being said, it is worth the risk and the money. The Twins are $14 million under where they were in 2007, so they do have money to spare. Plus, a healthy Crede is a huge upgrade defensively and power wise over Busher or Harris. If he goes down, then we have a clear, decent Plan B. Souhan wrote a spot on article about the Twins front office. By signing Crede at least they’ll prove they exist. Do the deal now. There shouldn’t be any debate about it. It’s a no brainer.
It’s also a $1B business. Payroll integrity is a business practice adhered to by most well-run businesses. It’s harder to execute in baseball than in banking, but that’s not going to stop the Twins organization from attempting to maintain some semblance of it.
Actually, MLB is a $6B+ business.
And if you’re worrying about ‘payroll integrity’ a Crede signing is the least of your concerns…it’s small potatoes.
Every contract given out by every MLB team affects the market, not just a Crede signing. The Zito, Santana and Sabathia signings will have a much bigger effect on the Twins ability to sign Baker, for example, than any contract given to Joe Crede for 1 year and less than $10M.
“…And many believe that third base is Harris’ best position - and a player who is more comfortable in the field might be more comfortable at the plate…”
Could that have anything to do with his .899 OPS as a 3B last year?
Leave Crede and all the other Borisites to their own devices, stick a 3B glove on Cuddyer for a few games in ST for depth and see what Buscher/Harris can do. Take the money you save and buy a US government bond and give it to Mauer, Liriano, Baker, etc. in 2012…
Liri-tendon is on to something. 20 more homers would almost double the production of the whole infield and we’d still have Harry-Busch to fill in as needed.
AG- You say Crede is an upgrade “when healthy.” Well, the fact is: HE’S NEVER BEEN HEALTHY. So, who is going to overpay an average(at best) player who’s a major health risk? Certainly not the Twins.
I’ll tell ya right now, from what I’ve seen of him in college and his way up through the pro’s….give Brendan Harris a shot at the everyday spot. He will not disappoint. Look what he did in Tampa in his first full year starting. 286 BA, 11 hr’s. Not bad for a first FULL year playing infielder.
The days of expecting 30-40 hrs from your 3B are out the window. I’ll take a solid average, a lot of doubles (with homerun potential) and good defense any day of the week. Harris provides all of those.
Crede will sign for less than a 7 mill guaranteed contract. Look at some of the other people the Twins were bidding on and what was rumored as thier asking price. They all went way below what the Twins have reported they are seeking.
My guess is the 7 mill the Twins have reported is just a high number put up there by the Twins FO so that we think he is asking too much. In all reality, he is probably asking less, but the Twins want everyone to think he is asking too much and that they “tried”.
I call BS. Get it done Billy. We all know his asking price is not that high.
1mil guaranteed to come into camp and see if he can come in and crush the ball during batting practice. Cmon guys, I know it doesn’t mean a lot but it does mean something. Can Crede hit them effortlessly? Even in best health he swings from his arse. That might be why he has back problems and why he hits .250 and why his OBP is dismal.
A Guy Who Knows,
Some of us are ok with Harris having a shot. The issue is we all know if Joe Crede is not on this roster Buscher will be given the best opportunity to win the job. Watching him play defense for a full season might give me flu like symptoms all summer long.
Harris is the best option, if he gets 350-400 at bats he will close to .300 and is the way better defensive option, plus he is a doubles machine waiting to happen.
I wonder why the White Sox aren’t bringing Crede back. They need a third baseman far more than the Twins do. All they have on their roster is Josh Fields who hit .156 last year and rookie Wilson Betemit. Money doesn’t seem to be an issue for them as they are willing to pay whatever is necessary to get the players they want. They must know something…
“My guess is the 7 mill the Twins have reported is just a high number put up there by the Twins FO so that we think he is asking too much. In all reality, he is probably asking less”
Solid negotiation technique.
Suggest a price that is HIGHER THAN the player is actually asking for.
Boras would NEVER call out the Twins for that deceitful maneuver.
Boras has too much integrity to leak that little Twins’ indiscretion to the public.
Amazing theory!
Buscher isn’t a 3B. We tried to let someone with marginal D skills play 3B in 2005(Cruddy) and it didn’t work out so good. The platoon idea would work if Harris was the one at the top of the depth chart instead of Morneau’s minor league room mate(butt buddy) Buscher.
aaron and elway i couldn’t agree more with both of you.
Aaron- Fortunately, for us Harris fans, if it does come down to that competition, Harris should easily win the job outright.
Elway- SOOO many people undervalue the importance of a double. And, yes, Harris has ALWAYS been a double maker, lol.
Crede is not needed on this team. Not one bit. Save the $$$$ for the ones who will need it after this year. There’s a nice, solid squad in Minnesota, we don’t need high priced back aches (literally) killing the chemistry.
Bryan- Betemit a rookie?? Better check your stats.
“rookie Wilson Betemit”?
Is that any relation to 5-year veteran, Wilson Betemit who has played for the Dodgers and Yankees?
Right. White Sox must know something.
You all don’t know how driven Buscher is. Why don’t you talk about D. Young and his liabiliy in the field and fielding. He can’t run a lick to be in his early 20’s…….
Ney-sayers all.
….and Braves
GUY:
But don’t you think Harris will be THE shortstop when Nick struggles? Then that leaves only Buscher, so we need another body.
Delmon Young is a stiff player, but he can run. That is a myth. He has pretty good speed.
Quit picking on Buscher, because Delmon Young can’t run?
That would be the footrace from hell.
So you wanna pay $7 mil for a guy who MIGHT play if punto struggles? We’re not the Yankees.
There’s another problem with overpaying for Crede. What happens the next time they want a FA? He’s going to ask for more, too. And so is the next guy. Then the guy after that. You can’t cave into demands just because you can. Doing so sends a message…and not the kind you want to send.
Besides, what if Crede is asking for $7 mill because he knows he’s not fully healthy and won’t make it through the year? Then the $7 mill would look pretty stupid, wouldn’t it?
Harris would not be THE shortstop, even if Punto was kidnapped.
It would be Tolbert, then Plouffe, then a trade.
Harris might “fill in” at SS, until the replacement arrived.
Whyat as pathetic general manager - all talk no action. typical Twins style.
What a pathetic general manager - all talk no action. typical Twins style.
Sid, of course Boras would not leak that Crede is looking for less than 7 mill if the Twin are willing to throw that out there also. He will try to get the most he can for his client.
Anyone watching what FA’s are going for though, knows he would probably accept 5 mill with incentives built in.
I just have seen enough Twins rumors over the years suggesting a team is asking for so much in a trade or a FA is asking for so much in a deal, and then turn around and watch them go for about half of what was reported by the Twins.
Pretty much everyone knows Crede will not go for 7 mill. If he was gonna, it would have already happened. Twins can and should pay him what they feel he is worth. They(twins) have him by the seeds here, he either signs with us for an amount less than 7 mill, or he takes a year off of baseball.
By the way…of course the Twins players “support” Buscher/Harris. What else are they going to say??
“Well, ya know, actually, bringing somebody in to play third would be great.”
anyone else notice all the comments erasing?
“all talk, no action”??? Really? I’m sure LEN and others would love to find a source within the Twins FO who’s willing to be “all talk”. They are a notoriously silent group when it comes to their negotiating activities.
I got a fever and the only cure is more KUBEL - no thanks, Frank!
It’s worth noting that Brendan Harris’ career OPS+ is actually higher than Crede’s.
Another Interesting note is that Cuddy’s career OPS+ is two points lower than Crede’s career high.
Is there a possibility of the Twins signing Crede to a two year deal? If the Twinkies offered him two years @ 7 mil plus incentives to push him to 5-7 mil a year, maybe this would work for both parties. This way, if he does have a big year we can watch him crush balls into parking garage B in 2010. I am not completely sold on him, but he seems like a younger Koskie and I still love #47.
JCricket-How can Boras really make the FO look like fools when they are already fools to about half on this board!
yapper,
The Twins (or any other team) would be crazy to “make up” phony asking prices that are higher than the player is actually asking for.
If Boras asks for $5 million and the Twins “leak” a rumor that its really $7 million, they have broken new ground for a higher asking price from Boras.
That doesn’t make sense for a Twins negotiating strategy.
Not interested what Buscher can do in BP…I’m 37 years old and still play baseball competitively, during BP I can hit it a country mile too; but it doesn’t happen like that in a game. The 3rd base options are minute in talent. If Crede stays healthy like his medical evaluations indicate he would be cheap at 7 million in comparison to other top names at third. Incentives…give it to him, if he earns them that means he is healthy and having a helluva year for us….I’m just sick and tired already about this.
DYoung spent all last summer crushing BP pitches. BP is not baseball.
Getting a second year for Crede is not a bad idea. He gets his $7m, we get a lot longer lease on whatever he manages to do. Possibly make the second year an option that vests if he’s on the 09 Opening Day 25 man roster.
Buscher crushes the ball in BP, and in a bullpen session Carlos Silva looks like Cy Young.
If Crede lowers his price I would say he goes back to the White Sox!
Now is not the time to be tight Bill. Crede will only make the TEAM better. Busher cannot field OR throw.
SKYBLUE - Say Crede gets hurt - which isnt out of the question - what contribution would he be making other than against limiting future cash for Mauer, Baker and Fransico?
Sid,
Unless they have no intention to sign him in the first place and are just trying to appease the fans by bringing up rumors so we have something to talk about.
All I am saying is the Twins always say such and such a player is unattainable because the other team is asking too much in a trade or the FA is asking for too much money.
In other words, the Twins try to make it look like they tried, when in fact unless the player decided to play here for peanuts, there was never any possibility it would happen.
“If Boras asks for $5 million and the Twins “leak” a rumor that its really $7 million, they have broken new ground for a higher asking price from Boras.”
I don’t buy this either. What is reported in the media and what is actually happening behind closed doors is usually very different. Twins want Crede, but they want to sign him to a minor league contract. They think every player out there should want to play for them because they do things “the right way” and have good clubhouse chemistry.
Just pony up and fill our darn holes, that is all I am asking.
Twins spin on LVIII in full affect already and its what, day three of camp? “Buscher is crushing the ball in batting pracice”, LaVelle - really? You are insinuating that since Buscher is hitting well in BP on day three, that should be considered in the negotiations w/Crede? If the Twins “brass” are using that same logic, we are in for a quick fall. And “there’s a lot of support for the Buscher/Harris platoon” - we don’t want to disrupt that chemistry now do we?
This is the same crap we are fed every single year and we latch on to it every single year.
140th!!!
ANDYMAN, what if Kubel or Punto or Cuddyer get hurt? Liriano, Baker, Slowey, Perkins, Blackburn, Mauer? All of those players have had injuries, some serious, long-term. I think the issue with Crede is whether his back has healed or not, not whether he might re-injure it.
Buscher sucks, Harris is average,and Crede is an All-Star. Which do you think should be our 3B. I’m not saying Buscher sucks arbitrarily. The man is and always had been a stone-handed fielder. Unless he’s going to drive in 100 runs his D isn’t worth it. Don’t give me that line about how his RBI pace would have led to 100 over a whole season. Pitchers hadn’t learned his weakness’s yet. Look at his September numbers if you want to see what kind of offense we will get from old bushy this year.
The question is… has Buscher figured out how to not look silly against Lefties?
I view Buscher as the modern day Randy Bush. A nice left-handed bat off the bench.
If Souhan is taking your content to the next level, I can only presume that down.
I am behind the Twins on this one. Crede is asking for way too much guaranteed money for a guy who has yet to prove he can stay healthy. He should take the $5 mil guaranteed, play this year and prove that he is still a force and cash in next year when hopefully the economy is on the upswing.
do we know for sure that he is asking for 7 million a year? Wasn’t Casey Blake supposedly asking for way too much money, and then ended up signing for less than what we were supposedly offering? I’d like to know what exactly Crede is asking for.
Great conversation on the Twins on this webshow… some legit points brought up that need to be talked about:
http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/generic/video/sod/Sports_On_Demand_Archive
yapper,
“Unless they have no intention to sign him in the first place and are just trying to appease the fans”
When have they EVER appeased the fans?
Or even tried?
“the Twins always say such and such a player is unattainable because the other team is asking too much in a trade or the FA is asking for too much money.”
What other reasons are there?
Always?
Why didn’t the Twins say that about Ayala, Punto, Livan, Lamb, Everett Guardado, and Monroe?
Because those trades (Monroe and Guardado) were reasonable and those FA’s (Ayala, Punto, Livan, Lamb and Everett) weren’t asking for too much money.
They try to appease us every year saying they are working hard on trades and signings with fairly big name players only to come up short.(Crede, Soriano, Beltre, etc)
“Why didn’t the Twins say that about Ayala, Punto, Livan, Lamb, Everett Guardado, and Monroe?
Because those trades (Monroe and Guardado) were reasonable and those FA’s (Ayala, Punto, Livan, Lamb and Everett) weren’t asking for too much money.”
And because they are garbage scrap heap players that noone wants anyway. Of course we don’t have to overpay them.(although we did with Punto anyway) Noone else in baseball would give them a MLB contract so they are at our mercy.
You really are making that argument with that list of players? That is a who’s who of unproductive washed up retread players other than Punto who is a great utililty player.
You get what you pay for - and if you’re only willing to pay for dirt cheap free agents and make dirt cheap trades, you’re going to get dirt cheap performance.
Can you imagine the left side of an infield with Crede and Punto??? Man, nothing would get through.
Come on Crede, say yes to the 5 mil. Then we can move onto Cruz.
I tell ya, it’s gonna be a hellofa good season.
Gregor you made pink lemonade come out of my nose. Good one indeed! I don’t see a need to sign Crede. He is more likely to fit like a Herr than a Wrench. And that’s not worth any cost.
Ben W. you must not be from around hear. You can find professional athletes from within your system or through free agency without mortgaging your franchise by over paying or depleting your farm system on a maybe. That’s one of the things I like about the twins. If you need more explanation pick up a copy of Billy Ball.
Something we’ve been doing since inception.
Didn’t the A’s make a pretty aggressive trade to get Matt Holliday?
Clearly I want Crede. That being said, all we as fans can ask of the Twins front office is to make an offer THEY think is fair and if he doesn’t take it and get more money from someone else, oh well. Never cave to someone demands when you are clearly on the high ground. The Twins are definitely in the drivers seat this off season, because NO ONE not in the AL East is spending money on Free Agents.
Methinks yapper is having trouble getting collecting his throughts from inside that tinfoil hat.
The rumors of Crede’s demands are coming from more places than just the Twins. You’ll note the Giants have started backing away lately as Crede’s demands have climbed to from 5 mil guaranteed to 7.
As far as the “appease the fans” line. That’s bull. Because anybody browsing these blogs knows that 90% of the time they appease nobody regardless of what they do.
Yes, I am with all you guys. The Twins just don’t have a clue what talent really is. You have to spend money to get a real team out on the field. Make trades, give up draft choices when needed to make the current team better and sign free agents. Cripes, for the last 7 years, either the Tigers, Indians or White Sox have been favored to win the division EVERY SINGLE YEAR!! They go out and buy the great free agents and that translates to results on the field. It is not even debatable! It works. They have won 3 division titles in that time period! And when they didnt win the division once or twice one of them actually contended for the title. When will the Twins ever learn?
Didn’t the A’s make a pretty aggressive trade to get Matt Holliday?
After they traded away a bulk of their rotation…
My point was that even Billy Beane is more aggressive with free agents and trades than the Twins are.
Not that I think the Twins should just give in to Crede’s demands, but just for once I’d like to see them make a move to really take this division by the throat.
“In the real world you have to earn your money,why can’t it be the same in sports?”
Simple answer.Sports aren’t the real world.Having said that,Crede won’t get 7 million per.Boras has very little leverage.
If the Giants have any interest left in Crede it would only be after Manny signs with the Dodgers.I think SF is holding out hope that the Dodger/Manny drama results in Manny heading north to the Bay area just to stick it to the Dodgers.If that happens the Giants will need any money spent on Crede to land Ramierez.
I said a couple of days ago that Crede would be a Twin in a week to ten days,and that BS would get him at his price.And IMO that still will happen.Maybe 5 million.
Imagine that.Crede looks over his shoulder at the Twins SS and realizes he is making only 1 million more than Nick Punto!
You get what you pay for, but what were the Twins actually trying to get? Go back to Livan. Did the Twins sign him to replace Santana? To be the number one or two starter? Or was he signed as a veteran who would be a positive influence on a young staff and an innings-eater who would save the bullpen every five or six days? Most of the FA’s everyone complains about were signed to be fill-ins until better solutions appeared. And the Twins paid for them about what they were worth.
Here’s the problem with that…
Burrell only got 8 mil
Giambi only got 5 mil
Abreau only got 5 mil
Blake got 7 mil (And is healthier)
Wigginton only got 3 mil (And isn’t even playing 3B anymore)
Better and healthier players aren’t even getting the kind of money Crede’s asking for.
T, don’t have to be a prick I guess. You just made my S list. No need to call names.
Have your opinion fine, but being tough on a message board gets you nowhere.
PS My tinfoil hat tells me the Twins will sign or trade for noone of value and they finish 2nd or 3rd in the division as some of our young guns come back to earth and our hitting with RISP comes back to more of a league average level.
Crede, if signed would be another fill in. The third baseman of the future will either be someone like Valencia or Hughes already in the system or a young promising player who comes over in a trade ala Delmon Young. That is just the way the Twins do business. And if you ask me, that way has been good enough put together a team that is “only one player away” from contending.
Walter, yes you are right. Crede on a one year deal, then let Valencia take over if he is truly the real deal we all hope he is.
T, don’t have to be a prick I guess. You just made my S list. No need to call names.
I find the irony in this comment amusing.
It’s one thing to be disappointed. It’s a completely other thing to start manufacturing theories about false reports to the press and fake figures.
Everyone’s entitled to an opinion or theory aren’t they? Never said it was fact, just what I think is going on. It may or may not be right. I may be off my rocker too. Just trying to drum up a little conversation.
Not too much going on right now until season starts and when it does I will be “all in” with the Twins and whichever direction they decide to go. Can’t wait for the games to start. We’re all getting too pissy just like last year during the Santana trade.
We’re one day away from tomorrow, which means absolutely nothing, being the Twins have done absolutely nothing, past, present and future with this present g.m. and front office regarding signing big name free agents or acquiring a stud by trade. Wholly run-on sentence! Yaaaaaawwwwwwnnnnnnn! Whatever comes out of Billy’s mouth is just hot air; I will never believe anything he says until something big actually happens. Until then, we (fans) are just hoping and wishful thinkers! Can it really be true? That we have a lower payroll 3 years in a row, even after they (front office) said they would INCREASE payroll! FOOLS are we all!!!
I’m sorry, but this is getting ridiculous. It’s a one year deal, we have the money. We are going to be sitting here in June lamenting the fact that Buscher is batting .260 and Harris is around .250. Crede just kills the Twins too and having him not go to another team even makes him worth the signing. Watch, we wait till next week and he signs with the White Sox for 5 million, just because were dragging our heals. Then, we’ll be at the deadline, overpaying with Delmon + prospects for Beltre, a rent-a-player. I can see it now, trade an ace for Del and move Del for a rent-a player. This is just unbelievable.
Crede was an ALL-STAR because every team has to have one.
Or, Delmon, Cuddyer and Kubel all have 9 or 10 HRs by the All-Star break and nobody cares much who is playing 3B.
It’s one thing to be disappointed. It’s a completely other thing to start manufacturing theories about false reports to the press and fake figures.
False reports and fake figures?
Do you mean like the Twins telling us they wouldn’t even contact Wigginton because he ‘wants more than Blake?’
Those kinds of false reports and fake figures?
Crede was also on a team that had Jermaine Dye and Carlos Quentin.
Jimmy, you said just what I have been thinking. 5mil is tops for Crede and everyone knows it, no matter what the “reports” say.
983rd!
I am not saying the Twins need to agree on 7 mil a year, but seriously don’t try and low ball this thing at like 2-3. And yes we all know that we have this “really awsome young talent” on its way up so that is why a player like Crede makes sense. Someone who can step in for a year or two.
To switch gears a little bit I did read on I think it was ESPN yesterday that Jorge Cantu and Dan Uggla could both be spring training trade candidates depending on how their young talent looks. Not sure how Cantus glove is but….
The Twins need to sign Joe Crede, if only for the 30 plus homeruns he will hit. The Twins owe us a legit player at third, not a back up or platoon.
Whatever comes out of Billy’s mouth is just hot air; I will never believe anything he says until something big actually happens.
See. That’s the problem. People mistaking “trying” with “doing”.
The Twins can try all offseason to find the fit at 3B. But they’re lying about actually wanting to fix it unless they actually are able to fix it.
Forgetting that when it comes to trades and FA contracts…you can’t just say “Gives us Atkins!” and expect the Rockies to agree just so that we feel good here on the Strib.
As far as Crede goes, just looking at the Strib it all makes sense what Boras is doing. He knows the Twins made those comments about fixing 3B. And I’m going to go ahead and guess he’s not living in a bubble…so he knows there’s a vocal group of fans that will not be sated until SOMEBODY “new” is put at 3B.
First it was “Get Beltre: Whatever it takes!”, followed by “Blake is our only hope!”, then “Wiggy is the obvious answer!” and now it’s “Crede is just what this team needs!”
So perhaps Boras is just playing the Twins own fans against them. Try to make it look like the Twins are the stubborn ones by releasing statements about how Crede is ready to play on “any surface” and slowly try to bump up the numbers as fewer FAs become available and that Vocal “Majority” gets more and more desperate for its fix.
Meanwhile the Twins are interested, but making statements regarding their platoon and holding fast on their current view of his worth.
If Crede truly was worth what he was asking, it would’ve been paid to him by now. The Giants have shown interest on multiple occasions, but have backed off as news of the $7 mil figure has gotten around.
The Twins at this point are bidding against themselves. There is NO reason to blink and give Crede what he wants when it’s obvious he’s not worth even close to that.
I think the whole Crede thing boils down to Boras. $ 2 million or whatever the impasse shouldn’t be a dealbreaker with the Twins picking up so many millions more when they move into their new stadium. With Mr. No (Bill Smith) behind the pursestrings, the Twins and Crede could be $19.95 apart and remain at an “impasse”. I think this is the Twins’ way of turning the screws to Boras, knowing they have an option at 3rd base with Harris/Buscher. Albeit an inferior option.
Do you mean like the Twins telling us they wouldn’t even contact Wigginton because he ‘wants more than Blake?’
Oh. This article?
The Twins like Ty Wigginton but believe he’s looking for a bigger contract than the three-year, $17.5 million deal the Los Angeles Dodgers gave Casey Blake. So the Twins have had little to no dialogue with Wigginton’s agent, Dan Lozano.
Looks like the Twins got some bad intel. Of course, that was also back in December. He didn’t sign until February.
And it’s not like the bottom dropped out on the free agent market or anything in that time frame.
Oh, and for all the talk of Wigginton…he ended up going to the O’s to play 1B and DH
Which is funny, since everybody called the Twins crazy for not being hot on his play at 3B. Looks like they weren’t the only ones who thought that to be the case.
Hey Lavelle…my son was crushing the ball in the little league cages. If that is the standard, maybe he is qualified, too?
Steve: The impasse isn’t the 2 mil difference in guaranteed money. (5-7)
It’s the 4 mil difference in incentives. (7-11)
If I’m the Twins, I look at any incentives on Crede as “guaranteed” because if he doesn’t hit those incentives it means he was either ineffective or injured…and thus WAS a waste of money.
Think of it this way:
If the Twins get the contract we’re thinking is THEIR top end (5 + 2), then that would mean that Crede gets 7 mil for being healthy and effective the whole season.
If Crede gets the contract he apparently wants (7 + 4), then that would mean Crede could earn the same 7 mil for not lifting a finger once the season starts.
You can see where the concept gives some people cause for concern regarding his health.
How come they aren’t playing Concordia this year?
Good point T, I like all those players more than Crede even when he is healthy. Look at Abreau’s numbers. OBP, ave, runs scored and RBI and he is getting 5 mil. Ok defense obviously is big but still Crede in this market should be getting no more than 2.5 mil. 3 tops since that is what Wiggington got. Why the emphasis on left handed bats when Morneau hits them very well and last year Mauer hit them much better besides which there are about twice as many righties.
That’s just crazy talk.
DY isn’t going anywhere. Cut the guy some slack, he’s only 23. Give him a couple years.
Beltre is not the answer, he will go to the highest bidder once he becomes FA. (won’t be the Twins)
And lay off Punto. The man is awesome with the glove.
Crede would be an awesome addition if healthy, but that is a big if. I love his swing, and he is excellent in the field as well, but none of that matters if his back acts up again.
I think Buscher is going to be very, very good. I saw him crush a ball way over the baggie last year, and reports are that he has worked like a monster to get in better shape - “chiseled” was the word used to describe his new physique. He has a nice swing and will continue to get better.
Anyone else notice that Harris, despite playing part-time, was third on the team in doubles with 29, just two less than ‘all-world’ Mauer and more than Young, Gomez, Kubel, Punto, Span, Casilla, and everyone else except the M & M boys?
That Harris kid has some pop too, and both are decent in the field. I am not sure that they are in need of an ‘upgrade’ at third and Smith is doing the right thing in not breaking the bank to invest in such a risky proposition. Any Crede contract should be contingent on him remaining healthy.
I don’t understand Crede’s (and Boras’s) logic here. He needs the Twins a lot more than they need him.
Anyway, a career .257 hitter with a history of major injuries probably shouldn’t have asked for so much money in the first place.
MOVE THE TWINS SPRING TRAINING TO AZ!
They’re plenty of out of work, rehabbing veterans that the Twins could woo here in the desert.
What do you guys think of moving Cuddyer back to 3rd base? Young LF, Gomez CF, Span RF and Cuddy at 3rd? Any thoughts?
Span is a better fielder.
forget about Crede–he isn’t that good
Gregor says:February 18th, 2009 at 9:41 am Hudson = #1 draft pick has a lot to do with that. Question: How many first round picks for the Twins have turned into productive players? In the recent past I can only think of Joe Mauer. We’ve had many 1st round busts so I say Hudson for a #1 draft pick would be worth it.
Souhan….popular name??? Only for those that like the NEGATIVE side of anything!
Pick up Hudson and move Casilla to his natural spot-SS. Harris can be respectable defensively at 3rd and can ADD OFFENSE IF GIVEN AN EVERYDAY CHANCE. Gardenhire has one depth chart and everyone else another one. I still think Punto needs to be the super-or not so super sub for the infield. Buscher, Harris Punto and 1 more guy is to much to carry for backups.
TJ, In my opinion having Cuddyer at 3rd base would make things a lot easier for Gardy and give us our best offensive lineup but Cuddyer was a defensive liability when he played 3rd base in the past. I’m just surprised that with the logjam in the outfield that the Twins didn’t at least keep that an option and have Cuddyer take lots of infield practice during the offseason.
As much as I’d like to see Joe Crede in a Twins uniform $7 million plus is too high of a price tag for a player with a history of back problems. Is he worth $5 million plus incentives? If there is no market for Crede I get the feeling he may get into some discussions himself. I guess it all depends on how badly he wants to play and how greedy he and Bora’s are.
Vanvader,
Problem is figuring out which ones will bust. Odds are probably about the same that Crede will be a bust from this point.
Span and Perkins were both #1’s.
So was Garza who I wouldn’t call a bust yet since we got some use from him as well as Delmon and Harris. Other recent 1st rounders are too young to call one way or the other. I think Hicks and Revere are very highly regarded but were drafted out of high school and are still very young.
Must be choking on the Horsecollar.
yapper-what you read in the media and what happens behind closed doors is different you say.A third of the posters on this board are convinced that the Twins had a firm offer from Boston in the Johan matter a year ago.
sign everyone you can and file for a baseball bailout when it doesn’t work.
I know Crede isn’t worth 7 million plus incentives. Everybody on this blog know he isn’t worth 7 million. And guess what? Boras and Crede also know it too.
Personally, I think they were perfectly happy with a 5 million plus incentives deal. But Boras remembered that the Twins had offered Blake 7 million, then decided if they can give it to Blake - they can give it to us.
Now it’s turned into one big stand off, but I know how to solve it.
All the Twins have to do is sign Cruz. Then they can tell Boras that they spent the extra two million on Cruz and it is no longer availible to spend on anybody. 
While you guys are all discussing “payroll integrity” and thinking about way to save the Pohlads $2 million dollars off their $3 billion dollar fortune, I’m busy trying to think what other team in baseball “platoons” 2 average players at the important position of Third Base.
Maybe the Pohlads will request that the competition committee pass a rule to allow the Twins to flip flop Buscher and Harris every other at-bat, or let Harris play the field while Buscher bats.
But I guess I forgot, the 3B position had 91 RBI last season.
“yapper-what you read in the media and what happens behind closed doors is different you say.A third of the posters on this board are convinced that the Twins had a firm offer from Boston in the Johan matter a year ago.”
Huh? Well maybe they did, maybe they didn’t. I’m sorry but I don’t think any of the posters here are insiders or anything like that. They probably did have a deal out there there from the Sox, but it was either Lester or Ellsbury plus prospects. We didn’t like that one I guess.
Macleod….
I want Crede too. The 1991 Twins won the World Series with 2 average players platooning 3B. Not to put egg on your face or anything.
LEN, I love the shirtless guy dragging the field behind you in your video update!! haha! Man that makes me jealous of that sunny Florida weather. Would you mind catching some video/audio of some balls snapping in the mit and cracking the bat? That would really help ease my winter blues.
As a rule, avoid anyone represented by that great cancer on baseball, Scott Boras.
I keep getting this sinking feeling in my gut that the Twins will have Buscher at 3B and Punto at SS opening day! It makes me sick! This team has a ton of talent that might not be starters because they’re not Gardy’s pets. The icing on the cake is Cadaver getting the RF job over Young. Here’s hoping Young does this spring what Gomez did last spring and Gardy’s all but forced to let him start. Here’s to hoping Harris is moved above Buscher on the 3B depth chart.
The Buscher/Punto infield will fall flat on it’s face. I’ve heard a lot of talk on this blog and others about Span and Casilla having potential “sophomore slumps” and I think to myself it’ll be Buscher and Punto whose offense is likely to decline this year. Pitchers finally got a good scouting report on Buscher(see his September stats). Punto has a history of putting to much pressure on himself when he’s given a starting job and struggles with the bat. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it’s mistakes Mr. Gardehire sir.
Des,
I think Perkins was a number 2 and so was Slowey if I’m not mistaken.
I’m wrong Perkins was a #1
Shazel,
They also one the world series in 1991 with a Hall of Fame center fielder and one of the best aces in team history, If they go out and get those two things, I’ll lay off the sorry platoon this clown front office is trying to pass off as major league quality. Anyone with a fair amount of baseball knowledge understands that having Punto, Harris, and Buscher as the left side of your infield is not what a contending team would go into the season with.
If they want to admit they are bagging 09 and waiting until the new stadium to make this roster a contender then fine. Otherwise it is what it is. This is a slightly above average team in a weak division not a contender.
Holding tough on Crede, it’s the same winning strategy that’s worked for years and has given the Twins a cover story to not sign any significant free agents. Go Twins!
Seriously LaVelle,
Buscher is crushing the ball in BP and Harris’ best defensive position is 3rd base and he’ll feel so comfortable about playing 3rd that he’ll hit better? This should reassure me and make me feel better about the lack of a REAL 3rd baseman? Seriously? I thought you knew more about baseball than to write that garbage.
Rather than platooning, is there a way to cut Buscher and Harris in half and sew them together so you have one player with good hitting and fielding?
savvyspy…
I fully understand what you’re saying about the left side of the infield. Gagne, Luis, and Pags weren’t much on paper either. We could have more HoF on this team than the ‘91 team only time will tell. If these supremely talented guys on the Twins want to leave a mark ala Puck, Herbie and the boys then they need to step up.
Shazel says:
February 18th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
Macleod….
I want Crede too. The 1991 Twins won the World Series with 2 average players platooning 3B. Not to put egg on your face or anything.
Hey, you got me there. The ‘91 Twins also went from worst to first! So, I guess the ‘09 Twins should tank it to finish in the cellar so they can win it all in the new stadium in 2010!
You see, one thing has nothing to do with the other. Unless of course you think this years Twins will be playing against the 1991 Major Leagues.
Also, the old arguement of holding tough on players is what has lead to the Twins “winning strategy”. If by “winning strategy” you mean not making the playoffs, then yes, go out there with your “winning strategy”.
18 years and counting. That’s the only figure I care about.
T—interesting observation. Duly noted. Best, Steve
Twins number of wins this season will depend more on the performance of the BP than the production from the 3B position. This is the only reason I’m not overly concerned about getting Crede. I think landing Cruz would be much bigger news.
Sure Crede provides a potential power hitter which ultimately this team has needed to be pushed into that elite category for several seasons now. I hope they do land Crede. I hope Crede stays healthy and starts 125+ games at 3B. I hope he hits 25+ HR and provides pop in our already formidable line-up. That’s a lot of hoping. That’s all I’m saying.
I just want something to get excited about. And I can’t get excited about Punto, Harris, and Buscher, with a little Cuddy thrown in for good measure. Instead of looking for that one move or two to get them over the hump, the Twins have decided to take the stand of “let’s hope for the best”. In professional sports, standing pat is the same as taking two steps backward.
The Vikings won their division. Do you think anybody is saying they should just play next year with the same players they had this year?
Let Crede sit for awhile more. The prices have really come down lately and
with the mandatory reporting date getting closer, they’ll drop even more. The Twins have really don’t have a reason to panick. Crede is the one who
probably starting to get nervous.
The Twins have had one season under .500 since 2001, have won 4 division championships (plus made it to game 163 last year), made it to the ALCS in 2002. They had plenty of opportunities to get to the World Series but it just hasn’t worked out. They have been able to be so consistent because they do not load the team up with massive contracts, or sign veterans past their prime to long term deals. They may have gambled on some old veterans in the past, but they were usually low risk contracts. Some have worked out (Kenny Rogers, for example). A lot recently have not. But at least they do not sign people like Barry Zito, and then screw their chances down the road to sign multiple quality players. Hunter was not worth $90 million over 5 years. We have a staff of 4-5 quality arms, rather than 1 (Santana) and 4 mediocre arms. Its hard to criticize the Twins not making any “big” signings, whatever that means, when they continue to be competitive year in and year out. I think they should sign Crede because he has a proven track record, is still fairly young, and, at the right price, could have a high payoff.
Is Billy Smith a volunteer??? I mean, he can’t possibly get paid for this little work, can he?
Capcom-
How man division titles have the Twins won in the past four years???
why don’t they meet half way like if he wants 8 and we are offering 5 why not just make it 6.5 im come on we need a power hitting 3 baseman just put a clause on the deal if he gets injured again
Lala72-
Well, they won the division in 2006, so 1 in the last 4 years. But they made it to game 163 last year, before the coin-toss scam forced them to Chicago to lose 1-0. So 2006 and 2008 seemed pretty successful to me.
But I was referring to the last decade, and many Twins fans keep thinking their favorite small market team will all of a sudden spend $200 million a year. Never going to happen. However, small market teams can still win, so long as they develop their talent from within, which the Twins have done better than anyone over the past 10 - 12 years.
I guess that the players are just as content with slightly above average as management. I’m sure that Al Newman and Jason Tyner could crush the ball in batting practice when they wanted to. That may have been a slight exageration, but hopefully I got my point across. Buscher is almost thirty and he hasn’t shown any power at the major league level yet, so I doubt if that is going to change. One last thing, if there ever is a reason to not sign a player the Twins will be the first to alert the media.
First off I must state that I was all for the signing of Crede early in the off-season but now I am really hoping the Twins don’t bend over to BorASS. I would only offer Crede a two year deal. 4.5M this year + incentives, team option for second year at 7M + incentives. If you don’t get him save the money. I still think the biggest issue for the Twins is that we are praying LNP and Casilla are fine at SS and 2B. Would much rather see signing Hudson for 7M if needed and moving Casilla to SS. An the other BIG issue is relief still. Making a trade with Colorado for Aitkins and Street would make sense.
“They had plenty of opportunities to get to the World Series but it just hasn’t worked out. They have been able to be so consistent because they do not load the team up with massive contracts. Twins fans keep thinking their favorite small market team will all of a sudden spend $200 million a year.”
Capcom, is this going to be your argument? First, I would rather the Twins signed some big bats just once, actually made it to the World Series, and win. 18 years and counting!! Then they can go cheap for 5-6 years and lose many games. Then win the World Series again. I like that cycle. Doesn’t this sound better than being perpetually “in contention”, yet winning nothing? I understand the Pohlad’s goal is to win just enough games to make a killing of a profit. But as a fan, my only goal for the Twins is to win the World Series.
Second, you just pulled a $200 million dollar figure out of nowhere. I think maybe, just maybe, the Twins fans want them to at least spend as much as the g-damn Royals!!! But nooooooooooo!! They can’t be bothered with even spending $5 mil on a free agent. It’s not like this blog is screaming to sign Manny Ramirez. But you go ahead and throw out a figure of an extra $130 million instead of $5 million if that makes your point better!
“Jim Souhan has arrived to take our coverage to the next level.”
Does that mean double time from now on at Stevie Tomato’s???
Here is the problem with the Buscher and Harris platoon. It is just that … a platoon. Buscher can’t field and is marginal at the plate. Harris can’t hit and is marginal in the field. The Twins have to pay two players to do two different things when they could pay one player, in Crede, to do both. Yes Crede is a health risk and the asking price is a little high, but at this point the Twins have to bite the bullet and pay the guy to be in a Twins uniform. I just think the reward potential far out weighs the risk potential.
let’s just all forget abot crede. the twins aint going to do it.they all are a bunch of money hungry a holes and i am really getting sick of the shi-talking every damb year about how they are going to look at there options on getting people and we all seem to belive em every year getting damb old. ps go cubs and brewers.
My favorite player, Ken Griffey JR. just got a contract with the Mariners:
ESPN Reports: The contract is for one year and $2 million guaranteed and includes incentives that could bring the total value of the deal to $4.5 million, a source said.
That is a healthy sum of money for an injury prone ole man. If he is getting that money I can see where Boras thinks Crede should be where it is. I don’t necessarily agree with it but those are the times we are in unfortunately. Give Crede $6 or $7mill with some added incentives and get the deal done.
How about BS tells BorASS that we will sign Crede (15M for 2 years - team option on 3rd) if he gets Manny (48M for 3 years) to sign here as well. Now that would be the MOVE to shake up the league. NOT EVER going to happen but what a lineup. An even better it doesn’t cost you any picks.
Span - RF
Mauer - C
Manny - DH/LF
Morneau - 1B
Crede - 3B
DY - LF
Casilla - 2B
LNP - SS
Gomez - CF
Bench - Harris, Buscher, Kubel,RedDog(who can take care of Manny),Cuddy - ideally traded for Bullpen help.
If you are going to dream why not dream big.
I’m looking at this, and I really don’t see the problem. Twins brass needs get up off their hands, and sign Crede. Period. Now. Listing positives..
1)The fans deserve a legit 3Bman, who has “every phase” to his game. (how long since Koski or Gaetti)
2)Twins are millions under self budget
3)New stadium on deck (millions+ more)
4) Crede IS A TWINS (and Gardy’s) type of (blue collar hard working) player.
5)Crede is an excellent fielder
6)Crede still in All Star potential yrs
7)Crede only about 30-31 yrs old
8)17 HRs –> at All Star break last year !! with 30HR potential hitting with M&M boys, plus the others.
9)Buscher still spells Crede to tune of ~50 gms (Crede ~112), thereby developing at his own pace, and helping Crede manage “the back”, and Harris plays some at 3B, SS and 2B.
10)Crede signs 1 or 2yr deal to mitigate risk, signing multiyear if all is good. I’ll stop there….
Negatives…not many
1) back injury crops up
2) we spent maybe 1 or 2 million more to secure this guy, who cares?! In reality, we didn’t overspend because-By comparison–isn’t Beltre’s contract at $12M/yr? I’d rather have Crede anyway for $2-3-4M less.
So compromise and either give Crede $7M +more difficult to reach incentives, or $5M and easier incentives, either deal totaling potentially $8-9M in the 1st year. A 2nd year is a bonus. Legitimate contenders for a WS win with strong corner infield play exhibiting power, RBIs and fielding. Crede IS ALL THAT. We have Morneau at 1B, we NEED the “other bookend” at 3B, and we’re on our way.
BFE is the man. I was thinking the exact same thing on the way to work today but I didn’t have the balls to actually put it in print. Great job!! I’ll take it!! LMAO.
Macleod-
I am actually hoping the Twins sign Crede. I wasn’t making an argument against it. I was simply pointing out that so many fans just want the Twins to sign huge deals (Hunter, Santana) without considering the long term impact.
“First, I would rather the Twins signed some big bats just once, actually made it to the World Series, and win. 18 years and counting!! Then they can go cheap for 5-6 years and lose many games. Then win the World Series again.”
Is that really YOUR argument? One, just because a team signs “some big bats” doesn’t mean they will win the World Series. Two, I don’t want to spend 5-6 years and “lose many games.”
I actually enjoy going to the ballpark every year watching a winning team. In 2006, we had the MVP, Batting Champion and Cy Young and still lost in the first round of the playoffs. A lot of factors come into play once October hits and that’s why an average team like Colorado can make it to the World Series. Pitching wins World Series, and we have a lot of young arms that could carry this team. They now have a solid pitching staff because they didn’t trade them all away for big bats. And they can also sign them down the line because they didn’t spend $128 million on one player.
But sorry Macleod, I was not trying “to make my point better” because I actually want the Twins to sign Crede. I think its a smart move to sign a 30 year old All-Star Third baseman to a one-year deal, rather than signing someone like Blake for two. My point was, if the fans ran this team, we would be the Baltimore Orioles — signing big names, and yet be terrible. The Twins have remained competitive because they have developed talent in their farm system.
I understand ya Cap, but unfortunately the Twins have relied almost exclusively on their farm system. They need to strike a better balance of developing MOST of their own players while mixing in a free agent here and there. And I think it frustrates the fan base when zero moves are made this off season and the payroll remains below that of the K.C. Royals. And all of this after the state gave them a new stadium. From what I have read, the fans consider this a slap in the face by the Pohlad’s. Kind of like patting you on the back with one hand while picking your pocket with the other.
I agree with you Cap. I would rather have a 1 in 20 to 1 in 25 chance of winning it all every year rather than a 1 in 16 chance every 6 years by signing 1 year rentals and then 1 in 50 the other 5 years. Seriously, we add Crede and Manny and any relief pitcher you want and our odds probably don’t go beyond 1 in 12. First you have to win the division (which in case you think it can just be bought ask the Tiger fans what they think after last year) which odds would not be much better than even and then the playoffs are generally no better than a 1 in 8 shot. There are no guarantees. Were you saying the Rays were an elite team at the beginning of last year? How about the Phillies. I am not against Crede signing either but it is nearly as likely that having a .250 hitter with power but dismal OBP would keep us from success. The reason I am for him is his defense. By the way, referring to the post saying we had one of the best aces in Twins history on the 87 team. That is true but we didn’t know that until he actually played that year. Before that season he was a below .500 pitcher for his career. How about giving these guys the same chance.
I hear you Mac, but I don’t think Crede is a slam dunk. Unfortunately we didn’t need an outfielder rather than 3b cuz I think Abreau is as close as a slam dunk as you can get and I truly believe if outfield was the hole we were trying to fill the Twins would have paid 5 mil to get him. There is a reason teams are not lining up to sign Crede for 7 mil.
sick of the crede story, they can add someone later that maybee we can have for more then one year. Just play good ball pitch well and we will be in possition to contend. Give Buscher a chance to show what he can do. He worked his butt off for it,give him a chance and stop bashing him like he is one of the White Sox. I hope Buscher comes out on fire so people stop dumping on him. Just because we dont agree with front office dont mean its the players fault.
I feel undecided both on buscher and harris. Optimistic about harris but can’t be sure. I really wish the twins would have considered orlando hudson. In my opinion that would have been a really good move. Than move casilla to ss. Then we have these third base options: Tolbert, Punto, Harris, Buscher, maybe even cuddy. That’s 5!!! different options for 1 position. Odds are AT LEAST one of them would have preformed well. But that didn’t happen so I think you sign Crede. I have a bad feeling that the White Sox would sign him if he lowers his asking price down to 5-6 mil for base salary. Two year deal would be perfect. Again, cuddy should be practicing his infielding skills, if he became a good 3rd baseman that would be great.
So right now who is are shortstop? Will it be Punto? I don’t know about you guys, but I’ve noticed somthing about him. Seems to me he preforms better when he’s fighting to stay off the bench like in 06. In 07 he was a lock for his spot and he seemed lazy. I love his glove and if his hitting is consistent I’ll feel much better.
Also, any thoughts on Tolbert? I really think he has potential. He was doing well before his injury and I think he is an option for 3rd base.
Yo, I like Tolbert better for shortstop. Actually, I would really like to see him play for a while cuz I think he might be really good but just haven’t seen enough of him. He did well last year before injury and someone noted yesterday that he was in the hunt for a batting title in the minors until an injury derailed him. I always thought the problem with Punto in 07 was either that he thought he needed to hit for power since he was a 3rd baseman now or that he hit a homer early and liked the feeling so thought he could do it again and developed an upper cut. He might have led the league in fly balls that were within 5 feet of the warning track. I somewhat cringe when he ekes one out because that is not his strength. I have never felt like he was lazy. I take him over Guzman who I thought was just way too casual in his play.
The sad thing is that the twins would be a really SCARY team this past decade if we spent a little money. I always have the philophosy stuck in my head that you can’t make a lot of money if you don’t spend some money. If the twins want to contend for a title they need to make a sizable move. We have been respected and been accounted for but we’ve never been FEARED or SCARY ever because we don’t spend any money. That dosent mean to go spend recklessly or make a deal just to make a deal. We aren’t asking you to outspend the Yankees or anything, but ever since we have been competetive (2001-present) every offseason we’ve had a chance to make a good move. If we spent as much as the tigers did this year, heck even the royals for crying out loud we would be in much better shape. What if zygi wilf owned the twins that would be great? The twins have never had too many holes to fill in the lineup yet we have never been able to patch them all. That’s what bothers me most.
Des I totally agree with you on Punto’s uppercut. He hits best when he’s hitting the balls close to the ground, groundballs, low liners, little bloop hits. He was putting WAY to much under the ball, he gets his big hits by speed and location NOT by powering the ball. I have no knowledge to comment on tolbert playing at ss.
Punto maybe wasn’t nesecarily lazy but he didn’t seem hungry for his job which worried me (or motivated).
THE TWINS GOING LOW ON THE PRICE-THIS IS TRULY SHOCKING NEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I agree BFE and Yo dog. But I think that is asking too much even though I think the Twins could pull it off. What a lineup that would be. I would rather be FEARED and SCARY than respected in baseball. Respected hasn’t gotten us a WS in a long time but it has lined the Pohlad pockets.
Macleod: Doesn’t this sound better than being perpetually “in contention”, yet winning nothing?
I’d rather watch year after year of meaningful baseball with shots at the World Series than watch them win it all one year and suck for the next half of a decade (if not longer)
i seen great things last year. so now its only going to be better this time around. as for crede sign him with incentives that controls the team salary cap.and with a 2nd year option.GO TWINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If Sleepy Bill Smith had been GM in ‘91 there is no way he would have spent the money to bring in a veteran pitcher like Jack Morris. If he had been around in ‘87 there is absolutely no way he brings in Don Baylor. The sad truth is that Sleepy Bill is a lightweight. He was burned so many times last year making horrible acquisitions and bad trades that he is determined not to make any more mistakes this year and thus won’t make any pickups. He twiddles his thumbs while so many players who could have helped the club, at a reasonable price, go elsewhere.
Orlando Hudson would be a great acquisition because I am not sure Casilla’s last season wasn’t a flash in the pan and Buscher’s b.p. thumpings become strikeouts and warning track shots once the season starts (not to mention his horrid d). Crede would be a boost not only defensively but a right handed power hitter and great in the clubhouse. Sleepy Bill, April 15th is coming, make sure and pay gift tax on that salary of yours….
I think many people ignore the fact that a lot of big name players don’t want to play for the Twins. The small-market, along with Dome are not all that attractive. Maybe the new stadium will help. But why didn’t we sign Griffey Jr.? $2 millions seems worth it to put people in the seats. Well, because he wouldn’t want to play here.
[…] his spring training updates on the Minneapolis Star Tribune’s website last week LaVelle E. Neal III checked in from Florida to note: “Jim Souhan has arrived to take our coverage to the next level.” Saddest statement yet about the […]
