Nathan out of WBC, Lineups - UPDATE
Posted on March 1st, 2009 – 8:53 AMBy La Velle
Twins closer Joe Nathan has pulled himself out of the World Baseball Classic because of a sore acromioclavicular joint, better known as the AC joint.
Nathan gave up a run on Wednesday during the spring training opener and hasn’t pitched since.
It’s unclear how sore he is. I know better than to speculate on anything right now. So we’ll let you know as soon as more details are available.
11:45 update: Nathan said he felt a tinge of discomfort sometime during the offseason but thought nothing of it. But it flared up last week, so he was given three days off,
He actually threw in the bullpen today and will do so on Tuesday. He feels more comfortable staying in camp, where Twins doctors can watch him. He’d also be hurting Team USA if he tried to pitch. WBC teams are scheduling which days they can use certain pitchers, and it would be hard to determine when Nathan would be available. And there’s the other issue of the Twins trying to win the division.
“I have to take a step back and look at the big picture,” he said
Blogging note: Tomorrow is an off-day and there is no workout scheduled. So it’s 50-50 if I’ll post anything. Just a heads up.
Lineups
Boston: 1. Lugo, SS. 2. Pedroia, 2B. 3. Big Papi, DH. 4. Youkilis, 1B. 5. Baldelli, RF. 6. Paul McAnulty, LF. 7. Bard, C. 8. Angel Chavez, 3B. 9. Jonanthan Van Every, CF. Pitching: Beckett.
Twins: 1. Span, LF. 2. Casilla, 2B. 3. Cuddy, RF. 4. Morneau, 1B. 5. Crede, DH. 6. Buscher, 3B. 7. Redmond, C. 8. Punto, SS. 9. Gomez, CF. Pitching: Slowey. Perkins, Guerrier, Breslow, Mijares and Humber also scheduled to pitch.
203 Responses to "Nathan out of WBC, Lineups - UPDATE"
This doesn’t sound good.
not sure i want to hear the rest of the story..
Icky… Cruz for 6Mil? Could be a big miss.
Our bullpen situation just might have gotten a little worse…Huston Street still available??
All I know is that the AC joint is in the shoulder. P H U C !!!!!!!!!!!
If this is anything more than a excuse for Nathan to stay with the team through ST then we need to take a shot on Cordero.
Here’s My Question
So what if Joe misses time? Mijares/Ayala in the 8th and Crain to close? Or do they let Ayala close because he’s done it at this level? Or do they let Mijares do it because he probably has the best stuff?
I suspect that its sore…largely because its spring training and the arm is still getting back in shape.
But nonetheless-
This is exactly why the WBC is a complete failure…Players are in no “Game playing” condition to at this point in spring training.
Hell of a time to find that Nathan might be hurt. Right AFTER Cruz signs for so little….
Any idea when Mauer might begin to play? And, is Crede the DH today?
WBC should be played after the WS! Everyone knows that!
Most players who think they’ll partake in the WBC have been working out in preparation…. This is likely more than just early work-out soreness. Especially when they refrencing a joint an not muscles.
Span and Gomez both playing CF! That should be fun!
kc…they got our quarterback and closer….damn thieves….and stole them both to boot….we are asleep at the switch it seems…..
That would be fun 
But I’m guessing Span is in left.
Patience, please. So much doom-and-gloom, and we don’t know any details yet. It’s spring training. As for Juan Cruz, would many of you have wanted to forfeit a first-round draft pick for his services? Or, in the sign-and-trade scenario, a top prospect or two?
Let the Royals assume the risk. This is a team void in prospects that just gave up a second-round pick in the draft.
Think positive, it will all work out. Beats taking the pessimistic view all the time.
Looks like the Twins will play two CF’s and two 3B today…….
would i give up a first round draft pick …damn right i would…we have a ton of youngsters right now, we could afford to let one draft choice go for a veteran closer…would not lose a wink of sleep over it either
[…] Nathan has pulled himself out of the WBC because he has “a sore acromioclavicular joint, better known as the AC joint.” […]
La Velle definitely threw this up last minute 
(we still appreciate it though)
My guess is Span is in LF and Crede is DH to evaluate if Buscher’s glove has improved (we know his bat seems to have done so).
I’m certain it’s Crede at DH because Gardy said they were going to slowly put him in the field.
Also, with Morneau going to the WBC after the game, Buscher should get plenty of shots to take the backup 1B title.
Best idea I’ve heard for the WBC is a week-long bracket tournament over an extended All-Star break in July. I can’t see it continuing much longer if it stays in this format.
I bet Nathan will be fine, just doesn’t want to overexert himself at this point in the spring.
This is so disappointing! I was really looking forward to seeing Tweak represent team USA.
Now I just hope he’s healthy enough for the regular season
Fun watching yesterday.
HAVE FUN !!! GO TWINS !!!
No way people put their seasons at risk with a WBC in mid-season.
I’m with mj1.
A draft pick has potential. Cruz is about as close to a sure thing as you get. Maybe not for a one year deal, but KC got him for 2 years, $6M. That probably would have been an excellent trade for the 23rd pick.
That said, I like the guys we got. If Crain & Guerrier come back strong we have an excellent pen.
Twins are also on MLB Network today at Noon.
La Velle
Who’s to follow Slowey?
With 2 Centerfielders and 2 Thirdbaseman it’s going to be an interesting day in the field.
WAKE UP TWINS FANS!
Mj1…You are the only poster with a clue here. Sure last year’s 1st round pick Aaron Hicks could be a superstar, but 1st round picks in baseball are about like buying scratch off tickets less than half pay out. In the past 11-years only THREE 1st round picks by the Twins ever made it to the bigs. Mauer, Garza and Span. THREE! The bottom half of this year’s 1st round is full of High School Pitchers. Yes, High School! So if you are asking if Cruz was worth the 22nd pick overall? This year. YES! Crede was nice at 3rd, but the set up spot was and is our biggest problem. I just got done watching the Twins last two games and while Crain looked good yesterday our Bullpen is IN TROUBLE people! Our long felief propects look weak and the 7th and 8th inning look to be our achilles heel AGAIN! Mijares is a HUGE question mark. If Nathan has issues we are going nowhere this year.
So Cruz goes to KC and now they have Cruz setting up Joakim Soria. OUCH! We better bea bale to beat the Royals in 7-innings becasue we’re not touching those guys. BAD MOVE TWINS!
Cmon Wobble your duties get more difficult than posting the lineup correctly. How about an addendum with the corrections and who is scheduled to pitch today outta the bullpen?
Don’t make us go over to the Boston Globe or Boston Herald for the info….
I know the majority of it has to do with Mauer being out right now, but seeing guys like Cuddy and Young getting time in the 3rd spot instead of Redmond is a great step up from last year’s lineups.
Slide Crede down to Buscher’s spot and put Kubel in there and it’s about as close to opening day as we’re going to see with Mauer out.
This blog & the responses on it about Nathan was just mentioned on 1500 sports talk show. Nathan said don’t worry, it’s only a precaution.
shookit,
Maybe the Twins should have signed Cruz, and traded Mulvey/Swarzek + PTBNL (Hicks after draft). Plus pay Cruz $6+ million.
1st round picks NEVER turn into anything anyway.
Also, glad to have the negative tone back to the blogs. The Twins will likely do the opposite of consensus view/prediction here. 2007 very positive, Twins NOT SO. 2008 very negative, Twins NOT SO. In both cases the blogs were about 15 games out of phase, that’s why we get paid the big bucks and Bill Smith and the FO volunteer
Regards,
LaVelle!
How the hell are both Crede and Bucsher going to start at 3B today? That don’t make a lick of sense!
Second the comment on Nathan on KSTP. Said he hopes to pitch on Thursday. Let’s not panic yet.
Here are some quotes from Nathan:
MLBtraderumors, Santana to go to NY to have elbow looked at. Unlikely he will be open season starter. Uh-Oh Johan.
La Velle had to much fun celebrating the Twins win last night
“Sore AC joint” sounds like an odd injury. I separated my AC joint. There are three ligaments in there that hold the collar bone to the shoulder blade. If it is “sore”, it sounds like the ligaments may be damaged. Doesn’t sound good…
are the twins on mlbnetwork today
Yes, the Dragon. The Twins should’ve got Cruz. You are absolutely correct.
This is great news for a bullpen that already has a GIANT question mark attached to it.
Sincerely,
Slowey looks sharp.
Span swung at the first pitch again (tapping out to the pitcher) he did that twice yesterday too for outs. Just a little curious is all because last year he did such a good job at taking a lot of pitches and working counts.
yes. Twins are on MLB TV.
Here’s an exercise for all who are so eager to give away a 1st round choice for an above-average set-up guy: Put all of these names in your hat and have your mom blindly pick one:
Hicks, Revere, Hunt, Gutierrez, Moses, Plouffe, Span, Mauer, Cuddyer, Parmelee.
Do you think the Twins would risk a 1 in 10 chance that the choice eventually becomes the next Hicks? Proponents of taking the risk love to throw out older failures like Adam Johnson, or Maybe they’re convinced for some reason that the NEXT choice will certainly be another Moses, unless of course they select instead of the stupid Twins.
It’s a short-sighted idea, friends. The choice could be another dud, but don’t make the silly argument that it’s more likely than not, because the facts don’t support it unless you think giving up Revere for Cruz makes sense and running a 50% chance of giving up a future perennial All-Star is worth it. Cruz is NOT the second coming of Mariano Rivera.
[…] Twins Insider – […]
Nice play by Casilla.
If Nathan needs surgery, he would most likely be out for most the season. It takes three months after surgery to begin rehab.
“But thought nothing of it”
Why do pitchers always say that. The classic last words of a pitcher before needing Tommy John surgery. It’s always a minor pain.
Without Nathan, the Twins would fall from sure contender, to hopeful middle of the road. The Twins invested a lot in Nathan, I would hope the players who signed $48 million dollar deals would starting being more cautious and “thinking a lot of it” when they feel minor pains.
Twins are also on the New England Sports Network (NESN) for those with the SportsChannel package on DirecTV. Channel 628. I’m in Des Moines; don’t know if this would be blacked out in the Twin Cities.
Thanks birdofprey…I would give up Cuddyer for Cruz.
And now do you have a list of the first round picks who have not panned out??
For those looking at giving up the No. 1 draft choice for a middle reliever, and saying the No. 1 picks usually don’t pan out, one reason the Twins have a wealth of good, young talent is because of all the picks they’ve had in drafts. The more picks, the more likely some will pan out.
Look at the Yankees as an example — they sign guys all over the place and look how void the system is of prospects with fewer draft picks to use every season. When they do need a replacement during the season, the depth isn’t there.
bof you’re making an assumption that these guys will end up top ml players. how about humber for cruz? he was a 3rd overall pick. cuddy has been ave at best, span has proved very little so far give him another yr or two. mauer was 1st overall pick long way from the 23rd pick. go look at the last 10 1st rounds and see how many of those guys are better than cruz it’s far less than half.
revere has proved nothing to this point!! maybe he’ll be the all star you think more likely not that’s history.
Gotta love that Gomez speed.
Adam, I believe that list was the #1 pick for the past ten years.
I’m totally in agreement with bop. Giving up your #1 pick for a RP that you weren’t planning on even closing is always a stupid idea… and by the way, apparently EVERY major league GM who would have had to give up a #1 pick to get him agrees.
Joe Posnanski, a fine writer with the Kansas City Star, a few weeks ago wrote a fine blog called “The Power of One Draft.” An excellent look at how much the baseball draft is uncertain — but with the right scouting, how it can pay off big.
Here’s the link (it’s worth reading)
http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/20/the-power-of-one-draft/
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to be that harsh, especially due to the fact that the rest of league passed on the guy.
Just frustrating that this guy could be the missing piece NOW when key guys like Morneau, Mauer, and Nathan are in their primes. Always being conservative to an eye to the future can sometimes take away from a real shot of doing some damage now is all.
Buscher handled the SS position perfectly on that Ortiz AB
Adam,
“And now do you have a list of the first round picks who have not panned out??”
I knew you’d ask. First, your mom picks the name randomly. You don’t get to pick and choose. And neither is this a cherry-picked list. So, make a list of the past twenty draft choices if you believe it’s more representative, and then divvy them up between those you’d trade for Cruz and those you would not.
Now, is it a 30% chance of regret for you? By the way, many would not give up Cuddyer for Cruz, especially if there wasn’t a surplus of outfielders. That shouldn’t factor in to the exercise.
ggg,
“go look at the last 10 1st rounds and see how many of those guys are better than cruz it’s far less than half.”
I did. It’s about half. I rest my case.
here’s your case:
23rd pick 1st round;
1990: Lance Dickson -
91: Aaron Sele +
92: Jason Kendall +
93: Jeff D’Amico -
94: Carlton Loewer -
95: David Miller -
96: Damian Rolls -
97: Donnie Bridges -
98: Bubba Crosby -
99: Keith Reed -
00: David Espinosa -
01: John Griffin -
02: Jeff Francoeur =
03: Philip Hughes ?
04: Ellsbury ?
i figure 2 +’s, 10 -’s 1 =, and 2 to soon to tell.
does this make your case?
I will conceed that 1st round picks do not always pan out, but then we should keep in mind the number of middle relief free agents who haven’t panned out in the past 10 years as well. I can’t really think of a high priced one that actually has.
Cruz had a nice season last year, but he has troubles finding the strike zone. He is one or two dips in confidence away from being average.
Bowden resigns as GM of ‘Nats. Fingers in the cookie jar maybe. Now there’s a good GM.
I think it is safe to say at least in value (think a one for one trade) Ellsbury and Hughes are superior to Cruz.
last year we were left out of the playoffs by 1 game. do you think another quality arm in the bullpen would have saved us from one loss? maybe not but imo yes.
ggg, you must also take into account all the picks lower than the 23rd pick who worked out. Just because other teams picked out someone at 23 does not mean the Twins would have picked the same players. Look at Revere, the Twins were panned for picking him in the 1st round but he has done well so far. The sheer number of “higher” picks (say top 6 rounds) is also very important. All picks are a “guess” to varying degrees. Quality & Depth of prospects are very important. Cruz could blow out his elbow the 1st pitch he throws for the Royals. You just don’t know. Always try to have the odds on your side. I’m sure the Twins would rather have 15 #2 & #3 starter prospects than 3 #1 prospects only. You don’t trade away your depth “potential” for a BP “guy” unless he is an elite closer. Giving up a couple “prospects” that you have judged will not make it is different than trading away the ability to add a potential star. Our scouts might have the player they pick at #23 as the 5th best player in the entire draft. You just don’t know. You have to keep all options open.
I also believe that one less error or one more quality fielder gets us into the playoffs last year. All we needed was one more win. That is it,sometime in that last week. Yes, the bullpen lost games for us, but so did our defense. I think people quickly forget that our bullpen was not the sole culprit.
Well that was last year. Does Cruz make this team so much better that its worth missing out on a Garza or Buchholz? I don’t think it does. I think adding Ayala and hoping Crain improves and Mijares performs is reasonable. Would getting Cruz help absolutely but I don’t think its worth the gamble.
Gobs, are you suggesting we are going to have the same exact season?
Guerrier looked like he picked up where he left last season off, which is not good.
i’m suggesting that some times you need to go for it. waiting until next year all the time hasn’t got us to the world series for 17 years. i’m getting old enough that waiting another 17 years may not come.
the old saying is make hay while the sun shines, meaning try to win it all when you have the horses, by the time all these minor league guys may or may not be good mauer, morneau, nathan and a few more will likely be gone and we start over again.
that’s mo.
But when going for it jeopardizes the future and it isn’t a 100% move. Adding Cruz doesn’t make them locks for the division. The 23rd pick could be the future ace of the staff it could be the anchor of the lineup. Cruz is going to be a good 8th inning guy at best. I don’t think he improves the team enough to jeopardize losing a franchise player.
Bringing up last year is oversimplifying things. Yes, having Cruz instead of Bass would have supported your hypothetical about an extra win resulting from it. No one would argue that adding Cruz would be a bad thing for 2009.
And ggg, if you believe the Twins are below average at drafting, and you want to look back at your longer list as opposed to a ten-selection sample that may more accurately reflect newer efficiencies in the scouting and drafting process, you have made a good case that it’s worth the risk.
I happen to believe my earlier list of Twins draft choices is far more representative of the risk.
The NFL draft is a much more “certain” draft when compared to MLB. NFL high draft picks are much more likely to become good players. The Vikings traded several high picks to get Jared Allen. They made the playoffs, so this was a good trade. Maybe. Maybe not. If the players KC picked up are still playing years after Allen is retired, who got the best of the deal then? Last year if Carlos Quentin had not broken his hand with a month to go, would we have only fallen one game short? Cruz all season would have helped our bullpen, but who is to say our internal options are not better this season? Bill Smith seems to me to add players just like I go shopping. Try to buy things on sale, not regular price let alone pay a “premium”. How many of you would pay $5000 OVER list price for a new car because “everyone else is” for that particular model? The jury is still out if BS payed full price or paid a premium last year when he went shopping for a RH hitter. Hopefully DY will continue to improve, but if you continue to trade the future for immediate help, it will catch up to you. Let’s see how the paid professionals do on their decision making. According to ESPN announcers the other day, the Twins “always make the right decisions”. (That comment & $5 can get you a cup of coffee most places).
Besides there is an at least decent chance that Mujeres, Slama or Delaney (if not 2 of them) will be as good as Cruz by 2010, if not by the end of this year.
We arnt as weak as precieved at rp… Besides we offered Cruz a deal, he turned it down most likley because it was a one year deal… a year from now we might not need another power arm in the bullpen. Why address a position that could likely be a strenght in 2010.
Did I hear today’s game announcer correctly report Juan Cruz signed with KC?
Looks like Guerrier is in mid-season form.
Ya’ll are right. No need for late inning bullpen help on the Twins.
A first round pick is a stiff price to pay for a reliever.
In some cases, it makes sense. Like for a team that fancies itself a contender THIS year, with a bullpen that was a problem last year, and could easily be a problem this year.
Or, the front office could just hope and pray it works out better this year.
We’ll see how it turns out.
“make hay while the sun shines”
ggg, I think I’m with you on this, for the first season in two decades. Andy MacPhail’s reign to be precise. I’m just not convinced that Cruz is the haymaker, and the risk was too high to call for that card. I’m glad they folded, but I agree they should keep their chips on the table.
Cruz to KC for $6 mil for 2 years and a draft pick. Too much for the Twins?
It’s been an interesting discussion on the whole Cruz thing - some very good points made. What gets me is how ALL teams are constantly looking for good pitching - starters and pen - and not one team was willing to give up their first round pick to get the arguably best free agent reliever out there. Makes you think. That being said, to me it does seem like a reasonable risk for the Twins to take at this time - even before Nathan’s soreness. Too late now, I guess.
Another thing to keep in mind is the Twins have had one of the best bullpens in the Majors the past 5 or 6 seasons. Most teams would LOVE to have our pitching. I think sometimes we are hyper critical of our staff (I’m guilty of it, too) - but we should be thankful for the guys we have.
Can’t wait for the season to start - Go Twins!
If it was a second rounder like KC is going to pay, I would say “no, it is not too much.”
I have to say: these NESN commentators are actually pretty good. They dont make me want to puke while listening to them.
“the front office could just hope and pray it works out better this year.”
Chief, I’m also nervous as hell about this bullpen. Guerrier, Humber, Ayala, Crain…this is analogous to the question marks last season regarding Slowey, Blackburn, Baker, and Perkins.
You are a little chintzy in crediting the FO in operating on little more than faith, don’t you think?
i’ll give up.
time will tell, hind sight is always best.
“Cruz to KC for $6 mil for 2 years and a draft pick. Too much for the Twins?”
Make a call for us, will you, AZBigJer? Let’s just offer a 37th round choice, though. And give the man an extra mil.
And Hey La Velle,
Would it kill you to proof read your comments. I know it’s ONLY a blog entry, but as a professional writer, it’s pretty bad to see glaring mistakes like: “Nathan has gave up a run” - really? And: “hasn’t pitched sense” - not to mention commas where they are not needed, player positions incorrectly posted, etc. You’d think you would take better care in everything you write, considering that is how you make your living. Just a thought.
yea I am going to have to agree with Freddy on this one
La Velle, I read your story today. May I suggest in the future you start using spell check. And like freddy T said you should proof read your story before you send it out!
Wallyb2,
Might want to follow your own advice.
Also, when in the future are you making this suggestion?
Regards,
sane at 3:11 PM is not me.
I would spell “yeah” correctly before I corrected anyone else.
I don’t mind a few typos or oversights in the more-or-less quick reports we get daily in the blogs. Feature stories are something else however.
And if La Velle only blogs twice a week, then it should be pretty clean in that case too.
Otherwise I’m just glad to get the updated info so often.
What do you all think, does La Velle put in more than 40 hours a week in his scouting/reading/phone-calling/interviewing?
Hey why not back off his grammar. It’s a blog not a dissertation. He makes point to post everything he thinks would interest us so that people like us who obsess over baseball have something to yak about.
Don’t worry sane, I figured that three or four posts from regulars that magically all agree with the new guy was suspicious enough to get you off the hook.
Oh…….and his writing.
Keep your eye on sane though.
As a note to the imposter…when three people in a row spell “proofread” as two words, it kinda gives you away.
Troll harder next time.
T, romer,
Good catch!
My Threatening Imposter Detector-Alarm Security System (TID-ASS) malfunctioned that time.
Recently signed up for MLB TV. I’m watching today’s game as part of the “archive” feature. It’s pretty sweet since I could not watch it live. When that game is done, I will watch the Twin’s two games against the Yankees. So many games, so little time.
Gee, I’m starting to wonder who I really am…
T, romer, and sane. I knew I would get some late afternoon entertainment reading the blog. I googled “TID-ASS Mineapolis” in an attempt to purchase the product with no results. Apparently there are no local dealers/distributorships. Too bad, I thought it might be a valuable blog tool.
bop: Almost makes you wonder how many of us on here are actually just one schizo having a conversation (argument?) with himself.
yeah another note to the imposter, get a life
The Twins have had more than 3 1st rounders make the bigs in the last 11 years. Span, Perkins, Mauer, Adam Johnson, Aaron Heilmann (didn’t sign and was drafted the next year by the Mets), and Garza. That’s 6. 5 of those guys have gone on to have pretty big impacts at the next level. That’s a great success rate.
Also, in the 1993 to 1997 drafts, the Twins selected 8 players with first round picks who reached the bigs. Varitek was another no-sign, but still…that’s 14 guys in the last 16 years.
why dont the twins prospects ever get any credit…everyone always say the twins do it the right way and build within the system but the twins rarely ever have any talked about prospects why is that…
I’ve said this all allong. Star Tribune needs to get their blogs to be locked for each screen name with a password. That would be an improvement if that is possible.
werbellik,
“I googled “TID-ASS Mineapolis” in an attempt to purchase the product with no results. Apparently there are no local dealers/distributorships.”
TID-ASS is available to tight-ass consumers, only.
If a tractor is require to pull a needle out of someone’s @@@, he qualifies as a potential customer.
“why dont the twins prospects ever get any credit…everyone always say the twins do it the right way and build within the system but the twins rarely ever have any talked about prospects why is that…”
twins4life, I think that’s an excellent question. Is it that the Twins prospects don’t get recognized, or does it just seem that way to us? Is it because we live in “fly over country”? I don’t know…..
“TID-ASS is available to tight-ass consumers, only.
If a tractor is require to pull a needle out of someone’s @@@, he qualifies as a potential customer.”
sane, in that case I don’t I qualify. Or do I? I’m gonna go ask my wife…
What’s the status of Reyes? Is there any chance he would come back with the Twins?
About Twins’ prospects and “recognition”.
Joe Mauer was BA’s top prospect overall for 2005 (Delmon was number 3 in that tally.) It’s just that the Twins don’t have any can’t miss prospect these days in their high minor leagues
Liriano was BA’s #4, #4, #7 and #7 best prospect in 2006.
Garza was #17, #17 and #19 in 2007.
There are 30 teams, so that’s not bad.
Hicks will be a top 20 prospect next season if he has any season like he did last year.
I would say Ramos is a little underrated nationally, mainly because I do not think prospect lists give fair value to defense and throwing arm of catchers.
T says:
March 1st, 2009 at 6:21 pm
yeah another note to the imposter, get a life
Ironically posted by an imposter no less.
Note to imposter. I usually am pretty good about my puncuation and capitalization.
Learn your victims better before attempting to pull off a fraud.
The bottom line is that “national rankings” of “prospects” don’t matter that much. IMNSHO what matters is how players perform on the diamond.
Here is an example: The best starting pitcher performance by any Twins’ minor leaguer in any level last season was that of Dan Osterbrock. (75 IP, 8 BB 104 K, 3.00 ERA, 1.04 WHIP) But for some reason (see: tools, scouts think they have better,) Hunt, Guterriez and Deolis Guerra have been “rated” higher than him.
Part of it is “potential” (and that is what those lists are based on), but the reality is actualization of that potential and putting numbers on the field (and in most cases, scouts really oversee that part)
Keep in mind Osterbrock was a college grad pitching against mostly 18 year olds in the Appy league.
In the same league Hunt put up a .47 ERA, 4 hits, 1 earned run, 34 k’s and 6 walks in 19 innings. Not so shabby.
Guys: I’m living down here in Florida now and have the good fortune to see the boys play. Three games so far. I will admit last spring i watched Gomez get fooled by marginal AA breaking balls, watched Boof’s fastball have little or no movement and then get stroked repeatedly to the track or farther by guys we’ve never heard of and shook my head as Livan threw slop to the point where it looked like he was walking guys on purpose. (Maybe he was???) Anyway, as camp broke there was no way I thought that team would compete. I was dead wrong!!! I’m no expert and don’t pretend to be. I get on here and bitch about the FO not making moves only because for almost every team minus the Red Sox and Yankees the window to have a legit shot at a Championship is slim, very slim. We have another shot with this core of players to be a legitimate contender and Cruz would have helped. He didn’t make us a lock, but he would have helped. Sometimes you have to take a chance to win NOW, and the frustrating thing is the Twins NEVER do that. The 23rd pick of the draft is no guarantee, nor is Cruz, but one in the hand is worth two in “Bush Leagues” in my book.
Sign Chad Cordero.
He is better than Cruz anyway.
RyanW,
“Keep in mind Osterbrock was a college grad pitching against mostly 18 year olds in the Appy league.
In the same league Hunt put up a .47 ERA, 4 hits, 1 earned run, 34 k’s and 6 walks in 19 innings. Not so shabby.”
Osterbrock is 5 months YOUNGER than Hunt, so I must be missing your point.
Hunt has tremendous stuff, so adding command will shoot Shooter (I had to say it) up the charts.
Osterbrock has so-so stuff, but Slowey-type command makes him a excellent low-level pitcher right now.
Adding command to great stuff is much more likely than suddenly acquiring great stuff, where it does not, now exist.
That’s why Hunt was drafted in the (supplemental) first round and Osterbrock in the 8th round.
As a result of his plus-plus stuff Shooter has the higher ceiling; plus he was nick-named after a famous movie alcoholic, and everybody loves that, especially scouts.
Aaron says:
“I have to say: these NESN commentators are actually pretty good. They dont make me want to puke while listening to them.”
Puke? No. Detached? Yes.
I really didn’t think much of their game calling.* Talked very little about the Twins…or even the game itself.
YES did a MUCH better job. They talked about the Yankees, sure, but they were always praising the Twins and just give stats and history of players on Both sides. All NESN did was bring in guest after guest to promote their own sh!t. Red Sox tickets, Wildlife foundations, people to just tell everyone how great the Red Sox are, sell auto insurace and stuff of that nature. They didn’t do much actual commentating.
.
.
.
*I should say that their second announcer was sick and that MAY have prompted the lack of play by play. This is one area that I actually PREFERED the Yankees over the R. Sox.
And no, no body tried to sell auto insurance, just making a point.
[…] Joe Nathan pulled out of the WBC due to a sore acromioclavicular joint. There’s no word on the seriousness of this, or if it was just a precaution. […]
[…] The full statement by Bowden is here. Stan Kasten also issued a statement on the […]
I can’t even remember how many times I’ve said “Oh No, I have a sore acromioclavicular joint!”
So am I the “imposter” you all are talking about? Hate to break it to ya, but I have only ever written in as “Freddy T” on the Strib blog pages. Guess some others agree with me, though, about La Velle’s sloppy writing. I’m not a tight @ss by any means, I just think it’s not that difficult to take 30 seconds to read what you just wrote so you don’t come off looking like an idiot - especially if you’re getting paid for it.
I enjoy reading these blogs and wish I had more time to read them more often and to write in as well. I’m a HUGE Twins fan and try to absorb as much info as I can about them. Have loved Souhan’s articles each day at spring training - did you see the one about Morneau last week? It was great - and the main reason I’m such a big fan of #33 and this team.
Keep writing in - I’ll proofread (didn’t know that was one word!) your stuff if you want.
Peace, love and baseball.
Freddy T.
Tough loss, but we can’t hit em all.
Here is from the story that was written:
“The Twins turned four double plays, and second baseman Alexi Casilla drew applause when he dived to grab Julio Lugo’s grounder in the third and threw from the seat of his pants to first base.”
Whoever thinks Casilla’s glove is average can read that (yes it’s one play, but he makes many routine plays as well).
“Lefthander Glen Perkins followed Slowey with three shutout innings. He gave up three hits, but two were erased on double plays. The two pitchers had to work through a Boston lineup that included 2008 AL MVP Dustin Pedroia, Ortiz and Kevin Youkilis…”Slowey was good,” Twins manager Ron Gardenhire said after his team’s first loss in five spring games. “Perkins was really good.”
Yes, Perkins is looking amazing isn’t he? Still worried Thry?
One thing
Has crede even made solid contact with a ball? He went 0-3 yesterday…
I can’t even remember how many times I’ve said “Oh No, I have a sore acromioclavicular joint!”
It’s as many times as I’ve shouted “Oh my duodenum!”
Guess some others agree with me, though, about La Velle’s sloppy writing.
Except everybody who agreed with you wasn’t actually who they were supposedly.
Yes, Perkins is looking amazing isn’t he? Still worried Thry?
Still too early. But what bothers me is that little quote:
”Slowey was good,” Twins manager Ron Gardenhire said […]. “Perkins was really good.”
Slowey pitched perfectly. Perkins gave up 3 hits. Who pitched better?
thrylos: Once again I think you’re reading WAAAAAY too much into things.
Maybe Perkins was not actually really good, thrylos. He could have been just kind of good. Or good, like Slowey. Or maybe he was mediocre.
God, what to do, what to do….
…or maybe it was a purposeful quote by an excellent manager…
Toby went 0-1.
Delmon had a vivible swing thought without visibly consulting Vavra, although he visibly consulted Dmitri.
Has crede even made solid contact with a ball? He went 0-3 yesterday…
And Young’s hitting dang near .800 if I’m not mistaken. Spring is weird.
Some players tryed to hit the ball the other way.
A couple of former Twins pitching farmhands put up good statistics yesterday, proving Anderson’s mediocrity.
Thry
Gardy likes Double play balls - its boring if there aren’t any baserunners
T
I am just saying it’d be nice to see him actually make solid contact for once; and DY is on a mission and was/is a top prospect; hardly a crazy idea for him to be batting .800
birdofprey says:
March 2nd, 2009 at 8:56 am
A couple of former Twins pitching farmhands put up good statistics yesterday, proving Anderson’s mediocrity.
Considering Anderson doesn’t coach many farmhands, I hardly think this is ‘proof’ of his nonexistant mediocrity.
Buscher and Punto got more AB’s yesterday than Harris, thereby proving Gardy’s meritless favoritism of Buscher and Punto and his hatred of Harris.
“Twins manager Ron Gardenhire said […]. “Perkins was really good.”
That meant Gardy thought that Slowey was “UN-really” good, which surpasses the “really” good Perkins.
Is everybody happy now?
…but if Balfour put up good numbers yesterday, it WOULD prove that Anderson sucks, right?
^my hope is BOP was being sarcastic.
I am further having issues with Gardy and pitching in general. I really don’t think he has as good a grasp on it as other managers do. He was a position player in the majors and it shows. I really think he should let Anderson do his thing (essentially be a defensive coordinator like in football - Gardy let’s him run the show, call relievers for game, etc).
Like I pointed out, calling Slowey (the 2nd coming of Maddux…yes its a stretch but he is darn good) ‘good’ and calling Perk (a guy with maybe 2 pitches) ‘really good’, not to mention his MANY bullpen blunders last year (constantly going to guys like Bass, Guerrier, Rincoln, etc even though they were pitching horribly) is making me question his evaluation of pitching.
^really hoping BOP is being sarcastic.
“And Young’s hitting dang near .800″
Delmon is hitting .857.
Why are all the Delmon-haters saying that he is batting a lousy .800?
Kidding!
[…] and ScarsJoe Nathan has pulled out of the World Baseball Classic because of shoulder soreness, explaining yesterday that he experienced some discomfort during the offseason, but “didn’t really think much of it” […]
“Is everybody happy now?”
sane, as long as Perkins, Vavra, Gardy, Anderson, and Smith are proven to be worse than most of us believe, some will be less sad.
Sane
Delmon is hitting over 9000 actually
(look it up if you don’t get it; it’s quite amusing).
“calling Perk (a guy with maybe 2 pitches) ‘really good’”
Sandy Koufax had “only” two pitches.
Quality overrides quantity.
BOP (icwutudidthar) - I can sorta see the Perk, Vav, Smith and even Gardy hate, but why do people think Anderson sucks?
Sane
so you’re saying Perk is the next Koufax? I know you wouldn’t go there
and to be fair, he’s got a good fastball that needs to be on target, and a mixture of other stuff that adds up to 1 pitch that’s decent (sometimes).
msm,
“look it up if you don’t get it”
Where?
hm since i posted a link, its being moderated.
type in google ‘over 9000′ and click on the youtube link and the urban dictionary link
Anderson has failed with some veteran pitchers.
That makes him normal.
Perkins had never started a MLB game before last year. Why is there no patience with him?
No, he isn’t Koufax, but developing a third pitch is not like splitting the atom.
Many have done it.
Everyone should consider holding their water.
I am not harping on Perk. I am rooting for the guy, if only for the fact he’s a lefty, a minnesota native and went to my alma mater.
and that fastball inside is awesome.
My favorite accusation regarding Perkins is BC Beneke’s insistence that the Twins have jacked Perkins around somehow, where he fails to acknowledge the role that injuries and Perkin’s maturity may have had in decisions related to starting him in relief, or in AAA, etc.
Of course, none of us know what Perkins’ ceiling is, but some of us are pretty certain it would be higher if it weren’t for the blundering Twins field staff.
I love that.
While the fact that the Twins hit over their head with RISP last year has been flogged to death, I’d like to point out two things that have been under-mentioned.
1)Perkins and Blackburn both had unusually high BABIP. If their BABIP’s come back down a bit, their numbers will improve (setting aside improvements from getting a year older and wiser). Yes, Baker, Slowey, and Liriano had low BABIP.
2)The Twins defense should be significantly better this year around the field. Crede>Lamb/Buscher. Punto>Everett/Harris (Everett last year, not usually.), DY not injured, more Gomez/Span “two CF” combo innings.
I’d expect the whole staff to benefit from #2.
Not to mention Casilla as full time 2B (where Harris was for a good chunk of games).
Checking in cuz I wondered what sort of topics would be out there on an off-day.
Parsing Gardy’s words so closely that “good” and “really good” are examined from multiple angles and dimensions, eventually leading to a debate concerning whether Perkins is the next Koufax, is the best we can do?
I’m sure glad nobody sits around all day dissecting every word of every impression I dare to utter.
On another topic… are we allowed to actively root against Team Canada in the first round of the WBC so we get healthy versions of Morneau and Crain back a week or so sooner than if they qualify for round 2? (Not to mention, it would get Koskie over to Arizona quicker to get started on trying to earn a spot with the Cubs.)
Jim
using the word ‘cuz’ signifies you are too lazy to use the entire word (because) and it would be safe to say that you are lazy in other facets of your life…
I kid
and we weren’t arguing if Perkins = Koufax; he was just making a fine point about how quality of pitches is just as good (if not better) than quantity.
JC,
“are we allowed to actively root against Team Canada”
Consider it patriotism.
so when they trade mauer to boston this winter what should they get back?
matt, drawing the conclusion that I’m lazy in other facets of my life based on my use of the word ‘cuz’ is a bit harsh.
I’m not saying it isn’t true, of course!
And yes, I knew the whole Perkins=Koufax thing was… well… I’m not even sure what it was, but I knew it wasn’t a serious derivation from Gardy’s quote.
sane, so I can use patriotism as my premise for rooting against Canada, Italy, Mexico and Australia. That’s good. And sense Nathan pulled out, I’m spared having to come up with an excuse for rooting against Team USA.
ggg, Youkilis, Lester and the Green Monster.
)Perkins and Blackburn both had unusually high BABIP. If their BABIP’s come back down a bit, their numbers will improve (setting aside improvements from getting a year older and wiser). Yes, Baker, Slowey, and Liriano had low BABIP.
not really.
BABIP 2008
Blackburn .308
Perkins .308
Liriano .305
Slowey .290
Baker .285
Twins’ team .303
AL average .300
all starters but Baker are within 10 points from league average. Boof had a high BABIP (.325)
does anybody really care about the wbc?
crikket that would be ok it would give them time to move the green monster to target field before it opens. imo they should get a bunch of prospects so they can keep looking to the future.
The Green Monster could be placed directly in front of the garbage incinerator to block out the wonderful sights, sounds and fragrances.
What ever happened to the other deals our inside source in the FO was promising?
ggg, I actually don’t think there’s any way Mauer wouldn’t be re-signed by the Twins. Unlike Santana and Hunter, he’s not likely to hold the Twins up for every last penny and he does seem to be more interested in staying than either Santana or Hunter did. They’ll get a deal done by next off-season.
In the remote chance that they don’t and have to trade him, at least he doesn’t have the no-trade clause Santana did, so they’d be free to negotiate with any of the richer teams that could afford him, rather than only the one or two he and his agent would “allow”, the way Santana screwed over the organization on his way out the door.
As for the Green Monster… I could see it used as the facade of the parking ramp along Target Plaza instead of the shimmering covering they have planned… and fans could be encouraged to deface it with graffiti before and after games. (Yeah… I’m not a big fan of Fenway.)
“What ever happened to the other deals our inside source in the FO was promising?”
Most “inside sources” are only sources inside their own minds.
Pete was going to rub LaVelle’s nose in it, when he announced the Twin’s Cruz signing before LaVelle did.
I guess when LaVelle wrote that there would be NO Twins’ Cruz signing, THAT was the scoop!
So, I guess that Pete ate it.
Anybody see who is currently 1-10.
LNP
what excuses can we use for this
4 million
“what excuses can we use for this”
None are needed.
IT’S SPRING FREAKING TRAINING!!!!
give nicky a break he’s been busy with rosetta stone learning italian to he can talk to his teammates during the wbc.
ggg, good one.
Al Secord, you bore me.
Can one of you Nick Punto haters explain why he is so disliked. 07 was a horrible year for him, but 06 and 08 he was a pretty good player. If he hits .270 we should all be happy, because of the value his defense brings.
Thry–thanks for posting those BABIPs…I didn’t have them handy, and I apologize for getting Liriano’s number wrong. While Perkins and Blackburn are close to league average, all I’m saying is it is more likely that they post numbers below .308 than above this year. Perkins could be better than he was last year…several reasons to expect improvement instead of just treading water.
AM,
“several reasons to expect improvement instead of just treading water.”
1)Perkins and Blackburn had never started a MLB game 12 months ago.
2) Liriano and Slowey were not in the starting rotation in 2007.
Do you think we could trade the Baggy in right field for the Green Monster since the Baggy is on the last year of its deal?
I heard Gardy say yesterday that he “really enjoys” pizza, but also that he added that he thinks burgers are “delicious”.
So obviously that means he prefers Italy over America.
And who is from Italy that is currently playing SS instead of the American that’s caught in a 3B backup platoon?
Explains EVERYTHING.
“Do you think we could trade the Baggy in right field for the Green Monster since the Baggy is on the last year of its deal?
That would not help our goal to “get younger”, but it would definitely be part of our “rebuilding” effort.
Another flagrant example of favoritism…
“give nicky a break he’s been busy with rosetta stone learning italian to he can talk to his teammates during the wbc.”
ggg, what makes you think any of Punto’s teammates are Italian?
nicky went through a lot of book learnin if they aren’t.
i still can’t figure out why they even have the wbc. waste of time imo except, of course, to brush up on your italian.
sane–also good points. Add in what I mentioned before about defense (wasn’t our Defensive Efficiency) near the bottom of the league last year?
This is why I am confused by BP’s lukewarm projections for our starting rotation. I think it will be pretty strong.
To me, WBC still means “World Boxing Council”.
isn’t it nice that spring training has started so we have lots of exciting news to talk about ….. zzzzzzzzz!
Rocky better watch out. because Nick Punto Might just be the next Italian Stallion
isn’t it nice that spring training has started so we have lots of exciting news to talk about ….. zzzzzzzzz!
Joe Crede.
Luis Ayala.
Young’s hot start to Spring.
Mauer’s absence from the lineup
Gardy trying guys like Young/Cuddy in the #3 spot.
Harris vs. Buscher for the primary backup 3B role.
Nathan’s shoulder.
Bonser’s surgery.
Plenty to talk about. You’re just not paying attention.
old news t but it’s always nice to have you correct me! don’t know what i’d do without your wit and wisdom!!
and it was a joke about the day off.
right on T
Speaking of Nathan’s shoulder, have you noticed that players get injured left and right and are not going to participate in the WBC….
old news t
So stuff that’s been developing over the weekend (Joe Crede’s two appearances as DH, Nathan’s injury, Young/Cuddy batting 3rd in the lineup, performances by Young and Buscher at the plate, etc)is old news already?
have you noticed that players get injured left and right and are not going to participate in the WBC…
I’d “get hurt” too if I was being asked to play in a meaningless moneygrab.
It’s interesting that nobody is clamoring for Nathan to instantly undergo exploratory surgery to find the source of his shoulder pain. Yet if he doesn’t get better and does end up requiring surgery later in the season, everyone will be on the Twins’s case for not making him have the surgery the last weekend in February.
WJ
has he even had an MRI yet? Exploratory surgery is a last, last, last resort.
This could be an allergic shoulder reaction caused by potential exposure to the WBC. Give it a week or so and might clear
Speaking of the WBC, there is another member of the Twins’ organization who is participating, but has been pretty much invisible: Hein Robb, a 16 year old lefty starter from South Africa who is participating in his native team. In their first tune up game yesterday, he pitched 1 perfect inning with 2 Ks. Of course, the opponent was the formidable Chandler-Gilbert Community College baseball team. Heads up: South Africa has upcoming exhibition games against the Angels (3/4) and the As (3/5). You might want to have a look at them to check out Robb…
Since it looks like the WBC teams are doing some exhibition of their own prior to getting started…are there any situations where a WBC team has members playing against their normal clubs?
are there any situations where a WBC team has members playing against their normal clubs?
lots. Starting tomorrow. Here is the schedule:
Don’t dis the PUNTO!!!!
Can someone please tell me,
when will the future arrive? With Bill Smith will it ever!!!
when will the future arrive? With Bill Smith will it ever!!!
So Smith never signed Crede or Ayala?
JimCrikket says:
“(By the way… the Red Sox have raised “selling” in Spring Training to an art form. Watching those two Twins/RSox games on the NESN feed in the past few days had me convinced the broadcaster was on the verge of telling me how much I needed “SHAM-WOW” at any time. They certainly never let details like who’s at bat or pitching or anything else going on down on the field interrupt whatever they were being paid to sell in a given half-inning.)”
I felt the same. Didn’t like NESN’s coverage. YES was MUCH better.
T says:
“when will the future arrive? With Bill Smith will it ever!!!”
“Smith never signed Crede or Ayala?”
Yes, he did. But they were only 10 day contracts for 55 million dollars each.
