A quick thought about pitching
Posted on April 30th, 2009 – 11:52 AMBy La Velle
One way to help a bullpen improve is to keep it off the mound. One month into the season, Twins starters have tried to do their part.
The Twins have had starters pitch at least seven innings eight times in 22 games as opposed to 10 through 27 March/April games last season.
But….
Twins starters have pitched at least eight innings four times (three by Glen Perkins) this year, which didn’t happen in all of April last season. The Twins’ first eight-inning outing last year came on May 7 when Livan Hernandez tossed a complete game at the White Sox. Last year, Kevin Slowey didn’t get past the fourth inning in his one April start and Francisco Liriano threw a total of 10.1 innings in three starts.
Twins starters have thrown 134.2 of 193.1 innings this year (69.7 percent). Last March/April, they threw 146.2 of 228.2 innings (64.1 percent).
True, Liriano and Scott Baker haven’t won a game yet. But, overall, the rotation has protected the bullpen.
44 Responses to "A quick thought about pitching"
I think that the Team trusts the staff more this year and lets them try to extend their innings and that is only going to help the staff. I also think that protecting this bullpen or any bullpen for that matter pays off more in August and September.
That’s a good point Len3 and i would expect longer outings out of Baker and Liriano in the future.
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and it has been improving as of late. I think the rotation will only get better in this area as the season continues.
One way to help a bullpen improve is to keep it off the mound
correct! There are 2 sides to that coin:
a. (as you said) starters go longer (and effectively)
and
b. the manager does not use relievers for 1 or 2 outs. Or pitch them in ridiculous situations (like Crain in the 9th inning of a blow out) so they are either unavailable or ineffective when they are really needed.
the starters are on the way to doing their job. I hope that one of these days, hopefully sooner than later, Gardy gets on his way, as well…
Finding the balance between using them too much and not enough is one of the biggest challenges a manager has. I question why Gardy makes some of the moves he does but it does seem like the leash on his starters is a lot longer this year compared to last.
Great blurb on the Rice Owls pitchers on Ask BA right now, noting 5 of the 6 pitchers from there (three first round picks recently, including Humber) have had shoulder or elbow surgery and just aren’t that good anymore….
There’s no doubt in my mind that Gardy is a little “old school” in that he wants his starters to work out of trouble on their own without needing coddling or bullpen help. I love that. Also, last year, it seemed that Gardy took the opportunity to take starters out of the game at a “logical” point. Tuesday, for example, the “logical” point was after Frankie struggled through the sixth. This time, Gardy put him back out there for the seventh and asked him to show him something. He challenged Liriano to extend beyond what he would usually be asked to do. ‘Cisco didn’t get through the inning, but was able to get two more outs, and no runs were scored in the inning. If each starter can get those “extra” two or three outs at times this year, it’s a huge burden taken off a bullpen missing a true 8th inning guy. Gardy and Andy are as good as it gets at managing a pitching staff, and I think with the stable of experienced starters they have to work with this year, we’ll really see what this group can do as a whole.
“One way to help a bullpen improve is to keep it off the mound. One month into the season, Twins starters have tried to do their part.”
I guess you could say keeping them from being overworked “improves” them.
But regardless of whether keeping a bad bullpen off the mound actually improves the bullpen, it certainly improves your team’s chances of winning.
Maybe what this bullpen needs is some attitude!
“ARLINGTON, Texas - Left-hander Eddie Guardado has been ejected from the Texas Rangers’ game against the Oakland Athletics.
Guardado entered Thursday’s game with the bases loaded in the seventh inning. He threw four balls to the only batter he faced and was lifted by manager Ron Washington.
As Guardado was walking off the mound, he had words with umpire Angel Campos, who remained near the plate.
Campos then ejected Guardado, who slung his glove and cap toward the stands near the Rangers dugout. The veteran pitcher then raised both arms over his head to incite the fans, who responded with cheers as he stomped into the dugout.”
Sounds like just the kind of guy the Twins need… maybe the Twins should talk to the Rangers about a deal?
OK… maybe not.
I would be curious to see how the Twins rank against all the other MLB clubs in this. As long as your here Thrylos…. 
thrylos-You are amazing,that 20/20 hindset works every time!
I would be curious to see how the Twins rank against all the other MLB clubs in this.
what is “this”?
JC it would be nice to see a guy with as much fire in him as Eddie. I used to love how he man handled that rosin bag on the mound.
GENO,
20/20 hindset works every time!
It is not hindsight. In the Crain situation I was mad about it the moment he got into the blowout game and before he bombed and got hurt the next day. As far as the a pitcher per batter thing, is a habit and not a hindsight. Gardy does it all the time and it is not good.
it would be nice to see a guy with as much fire in him as Eddie.
I think that last September we all had just about enough of yesterday Eddie.
thrlos98 I didn’t say Eddie in particular i said someone like Eddie with that kind of passion. This team needs more characters there’s too many stepford baseball players.
BC,
agreed. Gomez is a character. Other than that… But it’s not like the recent Twins (or most of the Twins fans and the media) to like players with that kind of fire. If, for example, DY did the same thing that Guardado did and got ejected, you’d hear about his “attitude” until the world ended…
The big difference with Delmon is the way he showed his anger, throwing your bat at the umpire is definitely the wrong way to do it, throwing your glove into a crowd is not.
“…hopefully sooner than later, Gardy gets on his way, as well…”
You mean *Gen. Gardy*, thry……
Try THIS “this” thry……(try saying that 3 times real fast!):
La Velle reports “Twins starters have thrown 134.2 of 193.1 innings this year (69.7 percent). Last March/April, they threw 146.2 of 228.2 innings (64.1 percent).”
Please provide the range for last year and this year as per the starters’ share (%) of pitching time.
E.g. the best team having a 70% share and the worst a 60% share.
Especially interested in last year’s.
Please provide the range for last year and this year as per the starters’ share (%) of pitching time.
E.g. the best team having a 70% share and the worst a 60% share.
this will take some time, but meanwhile look at this ranking:
I bet it will be close and is probably the only meaningful use of that archaic stat…
E.g. the best team having a 70% share and the worst a 60% share.
romer, almost spot on with your guesstimate. Here are the 2008 numbers ( % IP by a starter) :
Blue Jays 70.7%
Angels 70%
White Sox 68.7%
Indians 68.6%
Brewers 68%
Diamondbacks 68%
Rays 67.3
Mets 67.2
Red Sox 66.9
Phillies 66.9
Cubs 66.1
Cardinals 66.1
Giants 66
Twins 65.7
Royals 65.7
Tigers 64.5
Athletics 64.2
Dodgers 64.2
Reds 63.5
Marlins 63.4
Padres 63.1
Rockies 63
Astros 62.8
Mariners 62.6
Yankees 62.3
Pirates 61.4
Braves 61.4
Orioles 61
Nationals 60.1
Rangers 60.1
“I bet it will be close…”
Initial thanks.
I notice Boston was 12th in QS’s. I’m guessing their starters could easily have extended beyond 6 innings with giving up 4 runs or more because of their potent offense.
And if you spend the time to get the rankings, you might not get much grist for the mill in the BP debate either way:
It still can come down to whether a manager uses certain pitchers too often, etc.
Lastly, did you teach your wife to say it 3 times fast?
Im not sure what any of that means thrylos, and Im betting every gm in the league doesnt know either…
Excellent, thry.
The Twins in the middle…..so as to not be competitive. (They were trying to save their BP.)
Indians and White Sox near the top. They were trying to avoid their BP’s?
Im not sure what any of that means thrylos, and Im betting every gm in the league doesnt know either…
it doesn’t mean much by itself and cannot be used as an indicator of success. Teams with bad bullpens would like their starters to go as far as possible while teams with good bullpens will lift them earlier unless they are in a groove.
On the other hand, the highest team toronto, had their starters averaging about 6.5 innings while the lowest Texas had them average about 5.4 innings. Not that much of a difference, but I suspect you’d rather be on the higher end of the scale.
here are some meaningful numbers comparing starters and relievers between 2008 and 2009:
2008: starters OPP OPS .768, 4.74 ERA, 1.406 WHIP, 5.3 K/9, 2.25 K/BB
relievers OPP OPS . 733, 3.54 ERA, 1.262 WHIP, 6.6 K/9, 2.21 K/BB
2009: starters OPP OPS .762, 4.88 ERA, 1.351 WHIP, 5.5 K/9, 2.44 K/BB
relievers OPP OPS .825, 6.14 ERA, 1.585 WHIP, 7.5 K/9, 1.75 K/BB
and yet, the 2009 team is ahead of the 2008 team, despite the worse performance of the pens (the rotation has been better in 2009 than 2008). The difference? The bats. Team OPS 2008: .666 (what is that saying about bats out of hell?), 2009: .715
those numbers are comparing the first month of the season, btw
“On the other hand, the highest team toronto, had their starters averaging about 6.5 innings while the lowest Texas had them average about 5.4 innings. Not that much of a difference, I suspect you’d rather be on the higher end of the scale.”
i’m no mathematician, but isn’t that a difference of more than 162 innings per bullpen per season? which IS pretty significant…
Good, Jacoby Ellsbury broke Matt Garza’s perfect game in the 7th with an infield single. I didn’t want any riots to occur on this blog if Garza actually completed a perfect game.
Rays fans are so dumb. A standing ovation for 6 perfect innings? C’mon…you shouldn’t get an ovation unless you lose a no-no or perfect game in the 8th or 9th - not when the leadoff hitter in the 7th gets a hit.
“A standing ovation for 6 perfect innings? C’mon”
Yeah, most MLB pitchers have thrown six perfect ionnings against the Boston Red Sox recently.
yep that Garza is a heck of a #4 starter..
That trade might go down as the worst ever.
Blech
double blech.
I have a question. I hear all the time that the starters should go longer to save the bullpen, and to me it makes a lot of sense qhen the startes are cruising, not to remove them at the first hiccup. But if you keep your starters going 115-120 pitches, don’t you run the risk of getting your starters injured/tired by August/September? I am just a fan, I don’t have any coaching experience, that’s why I am just asking.
adyacent,
If the starters are allowed to go 115 pitches when they are cruising, but are cut short when they are struggling, the 100-pitch average is still approximated.
The 100-pitch cut-off for all situations is not flexible enough for real efficiency, IMO.
I wonder where the Blue Jays would be on that list without Halladay.
Thanks sane. It makes sense to me.
How many innings would Matt Garza have contributed if the Twins had not made what has proven to be a poor trade?
Speaking of pitching, I know the Tigers had some rough games earlier this week against the Yankees, but last weekend they were second to the Twins in fewest walks allowed in the AL. It appears Rick Knapp coming over from the Twins is already having an influence on Detroit pitchers.
It’s easy to pile on at this point, but both of the big trades the Twins made last year look very lopsided in the wrong direction.
I’m sure that Smith got some input from Terry Ryan on both trades, but you still have to wonder if they would have taken another route as far as trade partners had Ryan been in charge.
Rumor is Morillo will be put on waivers by the Twins in the move to bring Joe up if Redmond is not put on the DL. Any thoughts?
twins fans are taking it in the Punthole
