Should Danny Valencia be part of the mix?
Posted on September 17th, 2009 – 10:27 AMBy La Velle
An admired and slightly husky sportswriter crafted a nice column this morning on the ad-libbing Twins manager Ron Gardenhire has had to do this season because of injuries and poor play.
The Opening Day infield of Justin Morneau, Alexi Casilla, Nick Punto and Joe Crede has been blown up, as has 60 percent of the starting rotation.
A couple days earlier, another slightly husky sportswriter (better looking, by the way) was among the media horde when Gardenhire expressed frustration over not being able to add a couple more players to the roster to help the cause.
A couple players, infielders Trevor Plouffe (USA) and Luke Hughes (Australia) are in Europe for the World Cup and are unavailable. I was surprised to hear Gardenhire express interest in Hughes because he took him deep earlier in the year about how he played at Class AAA Rochester:
“He’s had a lot of issues,” Gardenhire said about Hughes at the time, “He hasn’t played very well and didn’t endear himself to the staff…He’s just real sloppy. Laid-back kid. His demeanor made people wonder what he cares about.”
Someone mentioned first baseman Brock Peterson, who hit .344 at Rochester after the All-Star break. Gardenhire pointed out that Peterson - and third base prospect Danny Valencia -are not on the 40-man roster, so they aren’t eligible to be called up,
Valencia is an interesting case. He began the year at Class AA New Britain, where he batted .284 with 7 homers and 29 RBI in 57 games. He was promoted to Class AAA Rochester when Hughes was injured and played there the rest of the season. In 71 games at Rochester, Valencia was .286-7-41.
About the same? Somewhat. After walking 31 times at New Britain, Valencia walked just 8 times (in 71 games, mind you) at Rochester. His on base percentage dipped from .373 at New Britain to .305.
That did not stop a slew of Twins officials, from GM Bill Smith down to Tom Kelly and Paul Molitor, to focus on Valencia when they pondered September call ups. In the end, obviously, they decided not to call him up.
He wasn’t lighting it up late in the season, batting .231 over his final 10 games of the season. He has the talent to play third base well, but someone who watched him play pointed out he needs to work on positioning and understanding the defensive side of the game more.
There’s also an opinion out there that Valencia needs a little more time to mature. In one incident, Valencia tried to score standing up and missed the plate. He was tagged out, got angry, yelled at the umpire, tossed his helmet and was ejected.
I don’t intend to paint a bad picture here. Just printing things I’ve been told. I watched Valencia during spring training, when he made a couple nice plays at third and looked like he knew what he was doing at the plate. He’ll be in my top ten Twins prospects list, which will be released in the next couple of weeks. He’s the most complete third baseman they’ve had reached the high minors in several years.
But, based on the evidence, he didn’t do enough to deserve a call up.
But who’s playing third next season for this team? Will the Twins try Crede again? Don’t think so Will they look outside the organization? Maybe, but they have other needs, too.
If a team thinks a player has a chance to contribute the next season - and the Twins appear to be at that point with Valencia -then that player should get a September promotion to get the baptism out of the way. And now Crede’s out, creating an opening.
Even if Valencia sits on the bench, gets a few at-bats and mostly watches games, there’s some benefit to that. That’s an opinion many people in the game have about prospects that I agree with.
Then again, are the Twins trying to send Valencia a message by not calling him up? And they might be the type of team that doesn’t want rookies sitting around unused while they are trying to make the playoffs. Maybe their decision would be different if the Twins were 10 games out. Maybe it goes back to what I wrote earlier, he didn’t do enough.
This is another example of how many things a club has to consider when pondering promotions.
Side note: In case you missed it, here’s a Rochester Red Wings season wrap-up by Rochester D and C beat writer Jim Mandelaro. Rochester was one of the youngest teams in the International League this season and, apparently, it showed.
130 Responses to "Should Danny Valencia be part of the mix?"
If they don’t know if he can contribute now, why would they think he’d be ready next spring?
The infield of 2010 is being showcased now with the Twins current winning streak: Buscher, Tolbert, and Punto.
Signed,
Ron G.
i don’t know that valencia is any better of an option than buscher.
I’m starting to think the starting 3B next year wil be Brendan Harris or somebody from outside the organization.
If ‘not being on the 40 man roster is the main reason’, then that isn’t a good reason. There are ways to work around that.
Of course, Valencia’s .231 at Rochester in his last ten days is significantly better than Brian Buscher’s average in his time at Rochester.
I’m as high on Valencia as anyone, and I do think he will be a very good big league 3B whether he is promoted for September or not. I also think, knowing how the Twins operate, that he won’t be starting for the Twins on Opening Day either.
If Brendan Harris was playing 3B, it wouldn’t bother me much. But when Buscher and Tolbert are starting, it’s annoying.
What does it say to Mauer, if they don’t promote him this year, and than make him the 3B next year? If they leave 3B in Buscher, Tolbert, Harris’ hands, what does that tell Mauer?
If Valencia isn’t ready at 25, he’s not much of a prospect (as players in the last decade or so are now peaking much earlier than what people think they remember, as teams aren’t afraid to promote younger players any more, like there were “in the good old days”).
It’s been how many years since this organization developed a 3B or 2B or CF now (they did develop a SS, but traded him away, with no replacement in sight).
Span is a corner OF in my mind, but if you want to say he’s the CF the’ve developed, then they are short at LF….pick your poison.
mike,
I am not sure an organization “develops” a LF, so much as as they lower expectations for a prospect they deem inadequate at another position…for instance…CF (Span) and IF (Hughes)
what is Harris’ contract situation? i would like very much if his days in minnesota come to an end in about 2 1/2 weeks…
Exactly Seth.
Morneau and Crede both go on the 60 day DL and there are 2 open spots on the 40 man roster.
….got angry, yelled at the umpire, tossed his helmet and was ejected.
i can see how this kind of behavior would really upset gardy. gardy just doesn’t tolerate yelling at umps and or getting ejected.
it’s always nice that gardy has a good word to say about prospcets building up their confidence for the future.
ggg,
“it’s always nice that gardy has a good word to say about prospcets”
Gardy is OK with prospects, as long as they don’t threaten to take playing time away from his boyfriends.
Casey: “i don’t know that valencia is any better of an option than buscher.”
I don’t think anyone “knows” that Valencia is better than Buscher or anyone else. That’s why you call a guy up in September, so maybe someone WILL have some idea on the issue before next spring.
As long as there’s a pulse in this team’s playoff life, I don’t know that I would advocate for inserting Valencia as a regular 3B, but I see no good reason for refusing to have him on the bench this month. Seth’s right, the roster issue could be dealt with pretty easily if they wanted the guy in Minnesota. That’s nothing more than a convenient excuse.
Frankly, I’m beginning to feel like Rany lately, in terms of BS and Gardy and how they run the team. Finding things that annoy me instead of enjoying the games. Maybe football season has come at the right time for me (or maybe they’ll just sweep the Tigers, and my brain will turn off the annoying part that reminds me what I don’t like about this team right now)…..
i don’t disagree that maybe valencia should be called up, even to sit the bench.
but if molitor, bs, gardy, and tk looked into it and seriously considered what is best for both sides, and concluded “there is no room on the 40 man” (excuse or not)… i trust their judgement on the matter.
my comment that about buscher is only suggesting my opinion that i would be fine with buscher at 3b to start next season (if they stay within the organization).
Valencia has been given the unfortunate title as the Twins third basemen of the future so undoubtedly he’ll struggle and be slow to evolve into the player people expect. Much like Cuddyer and Matt Moses he will be looked upon to fill the gaping void on the left side of the infield and clearly the Twins front office feel he’s not ready so the outlook isn’t pretty already.
2010 is going to be no different than the 7 previous seasons as the Twins struggle to fill the left side of the infield with quality players. The only question that remains is what washed up bum will they trot out for the first 2 months next year?
casey,
“but if molitor, bs, gardy, and tk looked into it and seriously considered what is best for both sides, and concluded “there is no room on the 40 man” (excuse or not)… i trust their judgement on the matter.”
If they concluded that Valencia has less value on the 40-man roster THIS SEASON, than does an injured Morneau or an injured Crede……..then they are all individually and collectively full of sh*t.
Anyone know who will be available at 3B and SS next year as far as free agents?
it’s all a damn conspiracy
btw, Mauer, Morneau, Kubel, Span and Cuddy are good enough on O (8th in runs scored this year), that if they ahve to 1 big thing next year (in addition to signing Mauer), I’d prefer it to be finding a starting pitcher (not an innings eater, not a vet that is good for the young guys, a guy that is actually good now and young enough to be good in the future) as the TWin$ are 25th in earned runs allowed.
It would not surprise me at all to see Matt Tolbert at 3B and LNP as SS to open Target Field next spring.
Those boys sure know how to get after it…
No need to put him on the 40 man roster until a) you are ready to use him in the bigs or b) you have to in order to keep the player in your minor league system. It appears that neither is the case right now. I have no problem with him not being here if the brain trust (insert jokes here) have deemed he is of no help right now.
they also made that assessment before Crede and Morneau had to be shut down for the year…. it might be time for a re-assessment (unless it is totally on merit, but then would he merit the spot to open Target field with no experience?)
Adam,
He won’t be a free agent, but JJ Hardy should be plenty available in the offseason.
Find a pitcher(s) Milwaukee would want and make a trade.
i think this is kind of a dead give away that valencia will not be the starting 3b next year.
Mark my words, Valencia will not be starting with the twins next year. As LaVelle pointed out, he was only promoted to AAA because Hughes was injured. I’m sure at least part of the reason he was kept at AAA was that the way this season has gone, they needed a body at Rochester. Hell if the cabrera trade had fallen through and we had one or two more injuries, you might have seen Hughes up here in July or August.
I think over the next couple weeks Tolbert Busher and Harris basically are getting a chance to prove to management that they can come up big when the pressure is on, and that they deserve to be on the 2010 opening day roster. Their performances will likely have a big impact on what the twins do with the left side of the infield in the off season
I’m not so sure it’s a dead give away that V won’t BE the starting 3B next year… but it’s certainly indicative that he’s not going to be handed the job without having to fight some guys for it in Feb and Mar next year.
ooo…Maybe Milwaukee will take Perkins for Hardy. Solve two problems at once.
I wonder how much Casey Blake and his .836 OPS would have helped this year’s club?
Never mind, we got Joe (Iron Man) Crede instead.
It would appear that Terry Ryan has taught Billy Smith well…
jc-
i agree. the job is not lost. it can certainly be won in spring training.
i think we were all too quick to hand him the job while the organzation doesn’t consider him ready yet
it isn’t a guarantee that Hardy is going to be available this offseason. He could be told to work on his footwork at 2B and 3B and could replace Counsell as the utility infielder while spelling Escobar. They only sent him down to get use of his last option year and delay his free agency.
Buscher is terrible on D, and if he’s so good why did they sign Always Injured Joe? He’s not the answer to any question I want asked.
Tolbert, at 3B? What’s his highest OBP and SLG in the minors? Ugh.
Harris? Gardy and he don’t exactly see eye to eye.
How do you ignore 2 years of “results” from Buscher and Harris, and Tolbert’s minor league career and go on 1 month of “can they help us make the playoffs”, as if it isn’t the pitching getting better that will be the key to the division or going home?
Yup, lots of us wanted Blake, but really, those last two years of his contract, he’s going to stink, just ignore this year….
Wow, remember when prospects were reasons to get excited about the future?
buscher is the best 3b in the organization.
granted his defense could use some work.
far and away the best hitter though. easier to improve one’s defense than offense in baseball.
Olivo, 3-run dong. 5-0 Royals.
chinmusic,
Crede did play well for much of the 90 games he played this year. Honestly, I think he played as much as the Twins expected him to, and it wouldn’t have been such a glaring problem if they didn’t also have to deal with:
Gomez/Young slumping
Anyone not named Mauer unable to bat 2nd
Span on the DL
Morneau’s dizyness and back problems
Casilla forgetting how to play baseball for 4 months
The complete meltdown of the pitching staff
If Gomez or Young had hit better all season long, we wouldn’t be missing Crede’s bat very much. If Casilla had played all season like he did last July, Punto/Harris/Tolbert/Buscher would’ve done an adequate job covering the left side of the infield when Crede was out. If our pitching staff was more consistent, we could’ve gotten a 3b midseason instead of Rauch/Mahay/Pavano
I thought it was mostly a 40-man roster issue. But they could just as well put Crede on the 60-day DL to add Valencia. He needs to be added after the season anyway to protect him from the Rule 5 draft.
They can’t be serious about resigning Crede after three consecutive injury plagued years. Harris? I would hope they start developing for the future rather than falling back on him. Buscher? No defense. Tolbert? C’Mon! Velencia is clearly the best option for next year.
So why don’t they call him up? Because Kelly and others hate young guys and focus on one bad play or one emotional outburst and ignore all the good things guys do. The same thing happened with Bartlett. The guy dominated in AAA for two years and all they could talk about was losing one pop up in the sun in the midst of a spring training when he hit .500.
Frankly I just don’t see why you wouldn’t bring him up, even if he wasn’t going to play everyday. Give him a start or two and see if you can catch lightning in a bottle. God knows there’s no chance of that w/ Tolbert (gardy’s newest buddy) or Buscher.
What does it say if you call him up now? Don’t bother working hard, we don’t have anyone else anyhow.
I think making him pay his dues now will be better in the long run. Learning the mental side of the professional game and the hustle and fight that’s needed to reach your potential is something that can’t be taught by handing out undeserved positions.
Valencia is a jerk, always has been always will be. There are documented incidents since he was drafted in 2006. At EVERY level there has been something. Suddenly something is going to change? I don’t think so. Package him to a team that doesn’t know his character and get a box of bats or a good prospect in return. People who think is the answer are nuts.
Frankly I just don’t see why you wouldn’t bring him up, even if he wasn’t going to play everyday.
Ditto.
Matt Tolbert is starting games at third base, ferpetesake. Think about that.
cmathewson,
“Because Kelly and others hate young guys and focus on one bad play or one emotional outburst and ignore all the good things guys do.”
Respectfully, I don’t think I could disagree more. I do think that “Kelly and others” require a certain level of: attitude, respect (for the game, teammates, self and community), responsibility and focus. I think some kids have these things right out of HS. Some can mature to a point where these things can be delivered. Some can’t. Either way these things are different from raw BB skill. But from observation, rightly or wrongly, the Twins consider these prerequisites to being in the ML dugout.
I also think most ML teams think the same way.
KC just notched another 3r HR (5th of their current Detroit series, I believe) and lead 8-0, top 6.
La Velle, you going to offer your opinion too, or do I have to find a way to hear you on the radio…..
That’s why Garza and Bartlett were traded to the Rays.
They didn’t earn their way onto the Twins roster, so they are now “paying their dues” in Tampa Bay.
Mike,
I would rather take my chances with Casey Blake at 3B in ‘10 than anyone that’s with the club at this time.
‘11 is a different matter, but with the revenue that the Pohlads will be raking in for 2 years, they could still live with Blake’s contract.
Maybe they can get Beltre in the offseason…
Chief,
I can’t wait to hear Leyland’s presser.
I’m sure that the Tigers won’t be griping the bats too tight this weekend…
that was sarcasm about the future with Blake, it was a bad decision not to sign him here.
Glad to see Duensing, Pavano, and Baker lined up to face the Tigers this weekend. I feel those are our top three options given the circumstances. (Duensing pitching surprisingly well, Pavano’s recent success against the Tigers, and Baker our best bet at this point)
“An admired and slightly husky sportswriter…”
“…another slightly husky sportswriter (better looking, by the way)…”
And the sugarcoating goes on and on…..
LQTM. I checked out the link to the Rochester article and looked at some of the comments. It’s funny that Rochester Red Wings fans are blaming the Twins for not giving their AAA team any help in the IL pennant drive.
That’s odd, becuase I thought it was supposed to be the other way around! Isn’t the AAA team supposed to help the Major Leaguers? Should the Twins have sent Joe Mauer down for a couple of months to help Rochester finish .500?
Rochester, New York is a strange place.
Plenty of organizations help their minor league teams out, either by having good prospect, by promoting guys when they are ready, or by having a few career minor leaguers on the roster.
Last year they left that team w/o a catcher at one point (I’m pretty sure it was catcher - maybe it was with 1 catcher, but not two). Either way, the Twin$ haven’t exactly loaded that roster with talent the last two years….
good prospects…not good prospect….
I’m guessing they are refering to not moving guys up from AA, not moving guys down from the big club.
And besides that, they did try. They had Buscher for the month of August!
Paul,
OK. Then I would say they pay too much attention to whether a guy carries himself like a major leaguer should than talent. In some cases, they prefer to have a replacement-level player who carries himself appropriately than a league average player who is a bit cocky.
Little Miss-
I do listen to some sports talk radio out of Milwaukee and so far the thought is that the Brewers will give Rickie Weeks another shot at 2B, since he was off to a good start this year before his injury.
I also heard they would keep Felipe Lopez who can play all over the infield.
Hardy is disgruntled and has stated he expects to be traded.
Twins and Brewers should match up on such a trade.
Kansas City needs to learn how to play this type of baseball April-August!
Greinke deserves the CY Young.
Shaun–they often DO play that type of baseball against the Twins. Let’s hope they are finished with playing well before the Twins next 2 series with them!
Hearing they are thinking about moving Mauer from behind the plate to save his legs. Third base is his option…..
Mauer at 3rd, Valencia backup…
Buscher gone fishing.
One more thing about Valencia…
On the surface, it appears as if the FO is now not convinced he’s the top-shelf 3B prospect many of us felt he has been. I have to wonder if this is a conclusion very recently drawn by the Twins.
I mean… wasn’t he “untouchable” at the trade deadline? Why… if now the feeling is he’s really not that “ready” after all?
Wasn’t he the reason the Twins passed on going 3 years for Blake? Why… if he really isn’t the organization’s primary option for fielding that position well in to the future?
Inquiring mind wants to know!
cmathewson,
I’m not sure just exactly what “a replacement-level player” means, but you may be right. But, this goes to the core integrity of the organization. These are very highly compensated positions. In the Twins defense, if they do value these attributes, they have to draw a line. Somewhere. Otherwise team moral and discipline would suffer. If not where they have drawn it, where?
LEN3’s story sounds like the kind of thing that gets a guy stuck in the minors for an extra year. Throw one helmet and you’re no longer in their plans.
Shaun in Chicago,
That’s good news bout Hardy. It would make my offseason if the team could land him. Perkins seems to be on the block. Problem child for a problem child? Giv em both a fresh start.
All this griping about the offense this year and next year. The left side of the infield can’t produce, Delmon/Gomez can’t hit, Twins can’t develop 2b, 3b, or CF prospects are all valid points. However, it is the pitching that has let the Twins down this year. Be it injuries (Liriano, Slowey), inconsistancy (Blackburn, Baker), or wierd “my arm hurts now that I suckitis” (Perkins). The bullpen is about what we expected (although better of late), the offense is scoring runs (mostly due to a couple career years) but starting pitching has been mediocore. The point of my rambling is that this team would survived the shortcomings in the lineup even with a hole at third base and in the middle infield.
I care more about winning than moral discipline. A replacement-level player is someone like Buscher or Tolbert who produces about where you can expect a fringe AAA prospect to produce. They’re replacement-level because they’re easily replaced by minor league free agents.
In this case, we know Valencia would give the Twins a better chance to win than Tolbert. But Tolbert has more moral fiber, at least according to the Twins’ judgement. The Twins would rather risk missing the playoffs than risk having a cocky guy in the clubhouse.
Although I don’t necessarily agree with the accusations bc I don’t know personally, lets say Valencia has these attitude problems/maturity issues/ is a bit cocky. Then what better way to mature and fit into the “Twins mold” than to spend two weeks w/ proven major leaguers that are by the Twins definition “ready.”
Cocky and moral fiber are not mutually exclusive. There’s gotta be something more. Appropriately not being voiced.
I just thought of something that I have been thinking about for awhile. Why are the Twins stockpiling good minor league catchers (three that could at least backup most teams by next year)when they have Mauer. Everyone needs catching and they often have high trade value is what I always thought, but maybe they are planning on moving batting champ to third base and having Morales/Butera/Ramos be the two catchers. Think about it:
Span lf
Morales C
Mauer 3b
Morneau 1b
Kubel Dh
Cuddyer RF
and then random middle infielders and gomez in whatever order.
I personally feel that Mauer could play third base tomorrow night about as well as Buscher can.
I just thought of something that I have been thinking about for awhile
(Inadvertant) clubhouse PoD leader.
Which reminds me…if anyone cares, I plan to announce my PoY (Post o’ the Year), PoY (Poster o’ the Year), and a couple random awards on the day after the regular season ends.
Still time to get in a worthy post or two, or a worthy bribe or two.
Yea, I realized after I typed that how (oxy-)moronic it sounded, haha. I meant that I had just realized that it was relevant to the 3b discusion.
Throw a briefcase full of money at Chone Figgins. Gardy would love him.
I’d be ok with Mauer at 3B, if that is a real plan. I’d be ok with Morales and Ramos behind the plate at some point next year (when Ramos is healthy and ready), with Butera up in stead of Ramos at first.
I’d like a lineup with Morales hitting 2nd, all he does is get on base. But, come on, Gardy won’t bat a catcher 2nd, that’s not a how lineup is “supposed” to be constructed.
JimC: stop asking logical questions. It will get you no where in life…..
It would be nice to see Morales in the 2 hole and at dh for awhile this year. O-Cab needs to be moved down, the “2″ in the lineup isn’t short for “double-play.”
I do not know what the problem is with Harris and Gardy. Can someone fill me in? Valencia is 25 now - not a young prospect. Something smells with that situation. Doubt that he is the 3rd bagger of the future. Don’t worry about 3rd base for next year. Spend the money (all of it if necessary) on getting a #1 starter.
mww: “JimC: stop asking logical questions. It will get you no where in life…..”
Well, you’re right about that. It certainly hasn’t, so far.
Why would you move a guy from his best position–a position where he is the elite player in the league–so that he can learn a new position? Don’t move him there until you have to.
My favorite Gardy quote bout the Mauer 3B thing after he tore his knee up.
“He’s got a chance to be the best catcher who ever played the game.”
They ever think about platooning Crede and Valencia, Crede when healthy added some pop to the bottom of the line up, and Valencia will be 25 that isn’t too young to be sitting on the bench and Crede shouldn’t cost anymore than he did this year because of the injurie and with the new stadium we should have that alleged extra revenue
Moving Joe to 3rd makes you weaker at 2 positions.
Crede is not worth the money to be on the DL half the time.
I am a strong advocate of moving Mauer to third, and next year seem’s to be as good a time as any.
It makes a lot of sense (to me anyway) on several levels.
cmatt, here are some reasons you might move him:
1. Catchers tendto have shorter careers. The longer he is a catcher, the shorter his career is LIKELY to be (not be, but likely to be). And, you’ll have to pay him 18-25MM per year for the next 5-8 years…so you kind of want him productive even in the out years.
2. They don’t appear to have any good options at 3B, but do have other options at catcher.
3. The sooner he learns (while he’s young and flexible and more athletic) the easier it will be for him to learn.
that’s three reasons why you MIGHT move him to 3B sooner rather than later (or rather than not at all).
Of course, if that is the plan, and they think it can work, maybe they should have dealt the 25 year old in AAA who they don’t trust…..you know, for a pitcher, but as JimC points out, just a month ago he was untouchable (just as La Velle points out Gardy is not asking for a guy he was ripping weeks ago).
it’s an odd FO/personnel organization right now (from the outsdie, given what we know).
Um, even at 3B, mauer would still be leading the league in BA/OBP/SLG. How does that weaken them at 3B, exactly?
Would you rather have Mauer at catcher, and the current collection at 3B, or Mauer at 3B and Morales and Ramos at catcher (now and in the future)?
not s/b now in the post at 4:09…sorry….
As far as Valencia character issues, all reports are that he’s a good kid. The only character issues I’ve heard about him are that he’s a little cocky and intense at times. But I like that in a player. I’ve seen too many guys with a lot of talent go into a prolonged slump because they were modest and humble.
One of the cockiest players I’ve ever watched was Knoblauch. Somehow Kelly got over his character issues. I hope they come to their senses with Valencia.
I’m not advocating moving Mauer, I just think its curious how the Twins are stockpiling catchers, but don’t have more than one legitimate 3b prospect higher than A ball.
I don’t think it’s a good idea to go into 2010 expecting Mauer to be your starting 3B. What if he has a hard time making that transition? You could put him back at catcher… but then you don’t have a 3B.
I wouldn’t be opposed to him taking ground balls there in spring training when the results don’t matter.
If Ramos was ready now, I would at least entertain moving Mauer. But Ramos is at least a year away. And Mauer is still deservedly winning gold gloves. Again, don’t move him until you have to.
The only way moving Mauer makes them worse at two positions is if it turns out he’s just not able to play the position defensively at even a moderately acceptable level.
I also don’t think people realize just how difficult it is to play ANY position at an average MLB level. Assuming Mauer could pick up a glove and spend a few weeks fielding ground balls at 3B and magically become proficient enough to play the position at MLB levels is quite a stretch.
What I envision as a more likely scenario would be a few years down the road. At some point, Morneau (who obviously has less reason to give a ‘home town discount’ on his next contract) could become too expensive to keep around. At that point, moving Mauer to 1B, even part time (a la Victor Martinez), might be a legitimate option.
The “cockiness” thing is bullcrap.
There are only two ways to deal with cockiness. Either the guy has to change his attitude or people have to stop caring that he’s cocky.
There’s exactly one way to force the issue. You put him on the field and make him prove he’s as good as he thinks/acts.
If he fails and proves he’s really not that good, there’s a good chance his attitude will correct itself.
On the other hand, if he succeeds and it turns out he really IS as good as he thinks/acts… there’s a pretty good chance people will stop caring if he acts cocky.
“And they might be the type of team that doesn’t want rookies sitting around unused while they are trying to make the playoffs”
Tell that to Delmon, Go-Go & Alexi. Seems like they’ve done plenty of sitting the past two seasons as young players on a team in the division race.
Maybe the Twins are just cheap caring more about possible money paid out 3-5 years from now vs. actually trying to make the team a winner now.
JimC probably has it right. I think 1B is more likely than 3B. But, if he can play 3B, I’d prefer him there sooner rather than later.
And, cmatt is right, Ramos isn’t ready yet (hence my statement that it could be Butera at the start as the back up).
Really, they need 1-2 SP, a SS, a 3B, a 2B, a RH DH. Then they’d be cookin’
Mike - Joe’s batting stats will always be good. You are making the assumption that he will be able to be a major league 3rd baseman after a few ground balls in spring training. Won’t happen. It will obviously weaken the catcher spot. The best option is to use him like this year - platoon him every so often - more next year than this year.
I’m not sure bringing up Valencia makes the Twins more likely to win the division this year, but it would be good for the young guy to get his feet wet.
The Twins refused to bring up Denard Span in September 2007. Maybe if they had they wouldn’t have felt the need to trade for both Young and Gomez that offseason.
Nowhere has anyone from the Twins fron office said that Valencia is not being promoted because he has character issues. That is pure speculation. While were at it “In this case, we know Valencia would give the Twins a better chance to win than Tolbert.” is also pure speculation
I wonder how stiff Gardy gets when he sees a Tolbert to Punto to Cuddyer double-play?
I bet he gave “Andy” a knowing nod of the head, wink of the eye, and sat down for a few minutes of relaxation.
I think the organization’s biggest mistake, with hindsight being 20/20 of course, was not believing in Denard Span. He’s becoming an outstanding ballplayer, and I just don’t understand how they could have overlooked that. That caused them to think they needed in Gomez and Young, both of whom won’t become consistent hitters without learning to take a pitch out of the strike zone!
As for the 3B issue, it’s interesting to note that Buscher can hit if given a chance…he can’t field, but I’ll take his bat!
dkl,
I’m with you on the character speculation. But at this point, it’s all we have to go on. I don’t think it’s mere speculation that Velencia would be better than Tolbert. For that, we have strong evidence in the form of major league numbers.
And consider this: Would the Twins have traded Matt Tolbert for Freddy Sanchez? Of course. Would they trade Valencia for Sanchez? NO.
Question of the day (originally brought up by Jim C) - if Valencia is such a problem, why was he almost untouchable at the trade deadline??
Should say “minor league numbers.” Doh!
Valencia should have been promoted. I guarantee the twins add him to the roster. His numbers this year were more than average. He led the org in extra base hits, runs scored, and probably ranked in the top 5 in EvERY other category. 285 with 38 dubs 4 trips and 14 hrs is a great year. Yea he coukd have walked more in AAA I agree but his season was very deserving of being with the team in sept based on what he did do. Are you kidding me with buscher, tolbert, and huber who dhed all year long? Those guys didn’t deserve to be up over Valencia. The FO is cheap, very cheap.
Valencia isn’t up for the same reason Delaney and Slama never got the call….they all do figure into twins future plans and the twins want them all as long as possible as CHEAP as possible. Nothing ever changes with the twins as long as the Hoelads own the team. The young talent will be kept in the minors as long as possible because when talented players get to the bigs they want to be paid. LaVelle writes this article and never mentions this? Come on man!
JimCrikket,
The worst thing about the situation is that the Twins opening day 3B will probably be Butcher not Valencia or a quality FA.
JimCrikket,
Well said @ 4:28
I almost got these buttons figured out
Gardenhire praised Tolbert’s work at third base after the last game. The field staff recognizes a good player.
Others had a chance at third and either flopped (Harris and Buscher), or were too brittle (Crede). It’s Tolbert’s time now.
I expect that Gardy will stay with the same infield most of the rest of the season. Cuddyer, Punto, Tolbert, Cabrera. It’s a good infield. Very athletic.
The Twins like to have several ways to win among their position players. The Twins value speed, fielding, putting the ball in play and fundamentals. They also value power, but see the need to have more than one way to win.
Diversity is Gardy’s key to success. Gardy loves the home run, but doesn’t want to fall into the dark, murky waters of home run dependency. Many a team has drowned there.
It’s no surprise that Tom Kelly was one of the people evaluating Valencia. Kelly has never been wrong about a player. I could provide a long list where Kelly was right on the money about a player when there were many contradicting opinions.
I don’t know what Kelly said about Valencia, but if he said he can’t play, you can rest assured he can’t play.
If you are trying to find an instance where Kelly was wrong about a player, don’t bother mentioning Ortiz. When David Ortiz was with the Twins, he had too slow of a bat to consistently pull, and there were pitches he just couldn’t handle. He was alweays hurt and took long to heal.
Ortiz was a marginal performer about to disappear into obscurity. Performance enhancing drugs changed all that.
After being released by the Twins, Ortiz had the gall to strut around for years, hopped up on drugs, verbally disrespecting Mr. Kelly.
Tom Kelly is one of the greatest baseball minds of all time. Ortiz has been proven to be a liar, a cheat, and a total fraud. Regarding Ortiz, Tom Kelly has been vindicated.
Kelly has never been wrong about a player.
David Ortiz says hi. So does Casey Blake.
Why not put Cuddyer back at third?
Paul Sorento, Denny Naegle, Javvy Valentine, Chad Moeller, Todd Walker, Rich Garces, Mark Redmond … I could go on and on. But I don’t have all night.
Kelly is not not a bad talent evaluator. But he’s not infallible.
I have no doubt that Mauer would be at least major league average at 3rd base in a very short time. Drills and his natural ability might make him elite over there in a short time also. Biggio went from catcher to 2nd base. Now there is a tough transition. It’s mostly react catch and throw at 3rd base, not rocket science or nearly as difficult as catcher. It would put him in the lineup everyday with less wear and tear. Defense at catcher in with that move is a different story but I would be absolutley shocked if Mauer isn’t good at 3rd almost immediately. I would guess history is littered with players who made the move to 3rd from other positions effectively.
BTW, Cuddyer is nowhere near the athlete Mauer is in case you were gonna inject that somewhere in the debate.
Mauer is truly one of the great athletes in the country and has terrific hand eye coordination.
joe mauer might be bored at third. that notwithstanding, it’s sure been fun to have c r a i g back and in fine form.
The Span issue…
Y’know…we have no idea of knowing what would’ve happened if they had brought span up in sept 2007. MAybe he would’ve been penciled in as a starter in ‘08 and crumbled under the pressure and disappeared into obscurity. Instead, he got a little extra time to develop in AAA, and was able to come up as a “replacement player” without too much pressure on him to perform, as he was theoretically just a placeholder until cuddy came back. He was able to flourish, and then came back this year as one of our most consistent players and a cornerstone of the lineup.
Morales seemed to do the same thing this year, coming up to fill in injury caused holes, and taking the opportunity to make an impact when he wasn’t nesc. pressured to do so.
Maybe that will be the future for Valencia too. Don’t hand him a job, and don’t bring him up just to have another warm body on the bench. Let him come fill a hole when he’s ready and when it’s not a high pressure situation, and see if he can do as well at this level as they hope he does.
Making the leap from AAA straight to Major League starter is tough, and one most do not do. Even just as a “september callup”, if he comes up while everyone is saying he’s the starter at 3B next year, he is suddenly going to be put under a whole lot of mental pressure to prove that he can live up to the hype. He may simply not be ready mentally to deal with that. Baseball history is littered with people who had great talent but couldn’t cope with the mental aspect of the game. See Alexi Casilla, April-July ‘09. We certainly don’t need to add another person to that list
….got angry, yelled at the umpire, tossed his helmet and was ejected
That should be a good sign. We traded a pitcher and starting shortstop for Delmon. What did he do again?
Heat of battle and frustration. I think most guys (not Milton Bradley) would learn their lesson.
It’s something else. If he is good enough, they wont keep him down.
Span’s been consistent enough since making it to the majors that if he was called up in September 07 he probably would not have embarassed himself.
And the pressure was entirely off the Twins in September 07. This was when they were in 3rd place and were upset that the F.O. had traded Castillo.
i can see how this kind of behavior would really upset gardy. gardy just doesn’t tolerate yelling at umps and or getting ejected.
Gardy doesn’t like the PLAYERS arguing with the umpires. Because if the PLAYERS get ejected it impacts the team on the field and at the plate.
Gardy will argue with umpires because part of the job as manager is to deflect the umps attention away from an upset player so the MANAGER gets tossed instead of the player.
Even just as a “september callup”, if he comes up while everyone is saying he’s the starter at 3B next year, he is suddenly going to be put under a whole lot of mental pressure to prove that he can live up to the hype. He may simply not be ready mentally to deal with that.
This is crap. Either the dude can play, or he can’t. 99% of the time, that’s a talent issue, not a ‘mental pressure’ issue. Even if somehow he’s the one in a hundred who have the talent but not the mental capacity to play baseball, what difference does it make? Either the dude can play, or he can’t.
BTW, I also have serious issues with using Alexi Casilla as an example of ‘great talent.’
Serious, serious issues.
I would love to see Joe Mauer at third base, sometime in his career. I think it would help to reduce the wear and tear on his body, I don’t believe he will catch his whole career, but this may depend on what team he plays for after 2010 (Twins hopefully)
After 2015, hopefully. I do want to see him become the greatest catcher of all time. Then, like Bench, he can move to another position.
This post makes me really happy that the Twins decided not to trade Valencia for a 3 time all-star second baseman.
Oh please can we trade for Hardy! I can’t wait to see a 3B and SS next to each other who can play defense worth a sh*t. No wonder we are 8th in batting and a .500 team…..
Mauer to 3rd? WHo comes up with this BS? Way to screw up two positions in the field.
2010 should have Mauer, Morales, and Ramos all on the roster. Kubel should be traded simply because we have 5 OF when we should have 4, he is a left-handed bat which we have a surplus of, and he will give you good value because of his ability and his contract. Then, Mauer can be rested at DH and we can have a good defensive back-up (Ramos). Saves wear and tear on Mauer. When Mauer does catch, Ramos, Morales, or whatever OF is not in the field that day can DH based on matchup.
Smith is letting Gardy sink or swim with the guys he wanted to start the year - Punto, Tolbert, and Buscher. If they make the playoffs, expect those three on the roster next year. If they don’t make the playoffs, I believe Gardy will be fired in the offseason(pure speculation).
scottz
Derek, you ever hear of Craig Biggio? But, I’m sure you are right. Talking about moving a catcher to a less physically demanding position should never be considered, and anyone that would do it should be ridiculed and called names. That will get people to consider your position, yup.
This post makes me really happy that the Twins decided not to trade Valencia for a 3 time all-star second baseman.
That just got off the DL and is putting up less than stellar numbers. Go look it up.
T,
Having a proven second baseman who is a career .300 hitter is better than having no second baseman and a third baseman who is unproven and just came off a minor league season where he hit .285 and played less than great defense.
Mauer at third is not bad considering Morrales is better then any third base option in the organization. Morrales would be a starting catcher on many teams. Saving wear and tear on legs could also improve mauers power numbers and keep in lineup almost everyday. Mauer also has proven athletic enough to switch with being recruited in more than one sport. If Inge in detroit can do it Mauer sure the heck can. No B.S. intended and not a bad thought from Steve H.
i was in professional baseball for 29years coaching players like albert belle ripkin troy neel and many more players that became excellent major league players. i have followed valencias career and as a twins fan i was so surprised he was not called up to the big leagues to help them win the pennant. i have read all about the articles saying he yust is not ready. as a hitting instructor that worked with baines gibson belle troy neel and many others with sparky anderson telling me i was the best hitting instructor he ever seen. i tell you that valencia even only playing against lefties in the last month would out hit any third baseman that the twins i heard that there was not a spot for him but there were spots for 3 catchers and spots for players that just did not perform.the organization had made the decision not to bring him up and that is their decision to make but make it clear it hurt all the loyal fans that deserved to have a winner. i know valencia would have definitely off lefties would have gotten key hits to win some games they say he is streakie. i can tell you 75 percent of hitters are that way. if you averaged his atbats in a full season in rochester he would have averaged around 90 rgis and 14 homers and 47doubles he would have the second best stats for third in the league. although his walks were low and his strike outs were average compared that to me is a solid year finally you will see next year that valencia will hit a mistake fastball more then any third baseman that the twins have he will hit 15 plus homers and 30 plus doubles and if you follow him with a lefty batter he could do alot more damage. this is my personnel opinion of him and if you new who i was you will know i was never wrong on i player yet. i mostly feel for the loyal fans that could have had a championship. now the front office has to what if valencia was called up we will never know. thanks for allowing me to give you a honest evalution to this situation
