The Day After …
Posted on June 30th, 2009 – 11:24 AMBy John Millea
Well, let’s hope today is a little calmer than yesterday. The Lake Conference shenanigans blew up early in the afternoon and the rest of the day was some wild ride, wasn’t it?
As the dust settles, I’m getting some fresh feedback this morning from people behind the scenes in the Lake and elsewhere. Here is the latest update…
–Lake superintendents might be a little upset with their principals. School boards are supposed to make the major decisions for their school districts, and conference membership fits that framework. I’m hearing that Lake superintendents are reminding their principals — who sit on the Lake executive committee and attended yesterday’s meeting — that the principals don’t have the authority to do what they did; i.e., threaten the MSHSL with massive conference realignment.
–Lake folks are sniping at each other about details from the meeting making their way to me. An email circulating among administrators reads in part: “Less than 90-minutes after we had a “private” meeting (today’s LC meeting) today, someone from our group leaked the information to John Millea (Star Tribune). I am disappointed that someone “from within” is pumping John Millea with factual data, not the way we should be doing business.”
This is interesting; not so much the content of the email but the timing. When it was sent yesterday, the report on this blog still was saying that the nine Lake schools had voted to withdraw from the league in 2010-11; there had been no updates (which came later) saying that no official vote had been taken. The words “factual data” in the email makes me wonder if the Lake withdrawal isn’t already assumed to be a done deal.
–I just viewed the Powerpoint presentation that Lake representatives used in their presentation to the MSHSL placement committee on June 15. It’s fairly straightforward, and it also, at least in my mind, displays some of the Lake’s behind-the-scenes arrogance that I had been told about. In the presentation, the Lake makes its case based on four criteria: Geography, enrollment, comparable athletic/extracurricular activities, and conference structure/orgainzation. This involved lots of lists, maps and charts.
One slide reads: “Very few of the schools in the Lake Conferences look like Classic Lake schools in terms of facilities, turf fields, and booster club potential.” Another argues that due to all these factors, the Lake (with 12 schools) should receive fewer Classic Lake schools than the Northwest Suburban (11 schools). The Lake also argued that travel would be easier for the Classic Lakes if they went to the NW Suburban.
Also, these messages were presented to the committee: “The Lake Conference is currently thriving and wants no additional schools.” And, “Rumors are rampant about what will happen; decisions should not be based on rumors.”
The Lake’s final statement in the presentation was this: “Being realistic, the data shows clearly that the Lake Conference should get one school.” The word “one” was in bright red type.
I don’t know if the placement committee members were offended in any way by the Lake representatives and their presentation, but if they were I can understand it.
–Among the emails I received this morning were some things that should be addressed. One person brought up the argument that Eden Prairie must build a second high school. I hear this a lot, and I am told by people in the Eden Prairie school district that their enrollment is peaking (or soon will). As someone stated here on the blog yesterday, it’s way too late for EP to build another high school. Those decisions were made years ago, and now the point is moot. Another emailer argues, on historical and geographical grounds, that no conference can be called the “Lake” if it doesn’t have any members close to Lake Minnetonka. All I can say is that while the original Lake Conference might have been so named due to Lake Minnetonka, there are plenty of lakes in Minnesota.
As always, this is an open forum for anyone to pitch in with their thoughts. This blog saw tremendous traffic yesterday and plenty of great posts were made by you folks. Thanks for your input.
John Millea is on Twitter at www.twitter.com/stribjohn
88 Responses to "The Day After …"
I enjoy how people like to spout off about how many high schools a city needs. I’m assuming this isn’t someone from Eden Prairie.
I graduated from the high school years after they made the decision to expand the school and stay as a single building. I was able to get a good education there, so there goes the argument of “it’s bad for students”. I I was able to be a varsity athlete and participate in the arts programs, so there goes the argument that “students don’t get a fair chance to compete”. So, really, what do you have left as an argument besides the fact that you don’t want your school to have to compete against a school with a talent pool equivalent to or greater than some small colleges?
Why single out EP?. Wayzata and Burnsville have similar numbers, as do Champlain Park (3001) and Stillwater (2898). Enrollment is on the decline in EP. It peeked three years ago. Why would the tax payers of EP want to spend all that money on a second school and then have to close one in a few years. Makes ZERO sense
New Lake Conference Enrollment numbers
EP - 3099
Wayzata - 3043
Burnsville - 2984
Minnetonka - 2689
Chaska 2426
Edina - 2232
Eagan - 2351
Eastview -2211
AV - 2180
Rosemount - 1978
Jefferson - 1676
LV North - 1674
LV South - 1670
Kennedy - 1483
Be careful, people, about what you write. I just deleted a post that had no place here. Opinions are more than welcome, but let’s stay on somewhat of a high road.
The concept of adding more schools to the Lake conference is ridiculous. Even now, it is WAY TOO BIG.
John -
Interesting that they’d (the administrators) would send that e-mail and then you get a report on the contents of it pretty quickly - Make sure you thank your source profusely!
You’re spot on about splitting the super districts into smaller schools - I live in Wayzata District and know for a fact that if anyone suggested splitting into 2 high schools - they’d be railroaded out of town…If a board member did it - they’d be examined for controlled substance abuse!
Glad to hear that the Supers may be coming down on the principals on this…should be some interesting conversations in the next few weeks. But one would think that perhaps the principals are the messengers…not the message crafters. Now the supers can retreat (tactically) and allow the principals to take the arrows.
So now when the REAL powers (Boards) meet and say - nope we’ll take 2 or 3 or all 4 of the CL teams - they’ll look like saviors and their principals look like idiots to anyone who pays attention.
And interestingly - still no word from MG, Blaine or Champlin Park in any interest to form a new super conference.
Dave
If anyone should complain about Eden Prairie, it is the families that live in Eden Prairie. If there kids went to other schools or they split the school into 2 schools more kids would have a chance to play varsity sports. You don’t hear any of the families in EP complaining it is all the people that have to play them that complain. There are many many athletes that could start at other schools staying at EP for the experience or God forbid an education.
Sounds like a bunch of spoiled little kids used to getting their way that now can’t. Everybody can’t be a champion, thats life, you can’t always take your ball and go home!
Interesting comment about the leaks. How is it that they can meet privately? Why don’t public meeting laws apply? Also, given the well known fact that this was going to be a blockbuster meeting, why weren’t the superintendents present? Maybe they should start earning some of their $100K+ salaries. Bill G.
We need to get off this argument that the megaschools are defined solely by their enrollment. That certainly plays into it, but the bigger concern for the other conferences is the money and everything that goes along with it. That’s what the Lake (whether it was arrogant or not) was trying to convey when they say “Very few of the schools in the Lake Conferences look like Classic Lake schools in terms of facilities, turf fields, and booster club potential”. That is the cruz of this issue and why it makes sense for EP to align with the CL schools.
I agree that it makes no sense for any of the schools to split and I also agree that this issue is not solved with a 5-team conference, but asking any current conference to absorb all the schools is unfair. Specifically these schools, who are consistently at or near the top of most sports at the end of each year. I’m not blaming the megaschools for being good, not at all, but as I said on a previous post, no one wants to sign up to put themselves at a competitive disadvantage.
The real solution would be to align these 5 schools with a handful of others that have similar resources, AND enrollments, available to them, but I don’t know if there’s any real comparisons outside of these 5.
A lot of people seem to be worried about EP’s enrollment, I’m just wondering if the new high school in Chanhassen affect EP’s enrollment?
Chaska and Chanhassen leaving to join the Missota makes sense to me out of geography, competition, and school size. The geography argument for splitting up the Lake Con doesn’t hold much water. Going back to the Missota for example, Hutchinson plays Red Wing twice a year. That’s a huge difference. They could separate the conference into North and South, with North being EP, Wayzata, Minnetonka, Hopkins, Jeff., and Kenn., and South being AV, Eastview, Rosemount, Burns, Lakeville North, and South. It might create more of a separation for all of the schools involved, but it would answer the geographical worries.
This conference will break up in one form or another, and having 2 divisions might just speed that up if the 9 don’t separate first.
Dave MN: I think you missed the point of smaller schools allowing more participation, and possibly your education i logic could have been better. If EP has three 800 student schools, there would be three times as many students able to be varsity athletes as there are now. The argument is the same for every one of those large schools. Three orchestra concertmasters, three sets of valedictorians, three sets of cheerleaders, three sets of “the cool kids”, three sets of students gaining leadership skills in a variety of groups,and three sets of everything else. As for cutting down straw men, where in John’s post did he say the size of EP was bad for students? Bill G.
What is wrong with one conference and two divisions. I posted this in the other story but it has always made the most sense to me.
North
EP
Bloom Jeff
Edina
Wayzata
Hopkins
Chaska
Minnetonka
Chanhassen
South
Bloom Ken
Lakeville South
Lakeville North
Eagan
Eastview
Burnsville
Rosemount
Apple Valley
I dont understand the smaller school always equals better. Lets be honest, the only parents advocating for a smaller school are the ones who kids dont make the sports teams. And why not just have 10 schools of 300 people? I mean wouldn’t that just be more opportunities for more people for more programs for better education?
I find it interesting that 2 weeks ago the MSHSL decided it was a good idea to restrict travel for high school teams to “level the playing field” (their words). In reality, that decision actully tilted the playing field in favor of those schools that have facilities and resources (bubble domes. field turf, etc) for year round practices as the “have nots” no longer have an avenue, especially in the spring to prepare. So…this decision by the “south of the river” Lake Conf. schools seems to me to actually do what the MSHSL couldn’t accomplish with their misguided and harmful edict on travel and scrimmage restrictions. The MSHSL should be 100% behind this move, if they actually believe anything they say.
Perhaps all of the superintendents should address the real issue here: Why do public schools continue to spend inordinate amounts of money on varsity sports that benefit less than 1% of the student population? With child obesity levels through the roof, why do we run varsity basketball programs that benefit only 15 boys or girls? How about intramural programs that benefit more students and still provide competition and exercise? Let’s re-think our priorities here.
Why don’t they just all get home schooled. Then they can all be the cool kids, the homecoming King/Queen, class president and everything else that everyone is whining about. Ok, your kid isn’t cool get over it they will get a better job later in life.
Norm I was going to say that same thing but thought it may be too extreme. But I agree 100%.
And just because there is a discussion about varsity athletics doesn’t mean a school does not have intramurals. I can say that at EP when I was going there, the intramural program was huge and there were new sports being added everyyear.
James
Go eat some more paste. If your worried about the kids that are not in shape tell them to get off the couch and go outside and play. What makes you think they will join IM sports if they can’t get outside and play now?
Perhaps it is time to get sports out of the schools entirely. Make them community/county/etc. based but privately run. Much like youth sports today. My daughters soccer club has multiple traveling teams per age group from U8 to U19. Well run and opportunities for all that want to participate. They also run in-house leagues for those who don’t want everything that comes with traveling. Easily done with almost every other sport.
I am pretty sure that the MSHSL would love for the conferences to figure it out for themselves.
I believe that the conferences all need to all work together to come up with the best Geographical conferences and show the tax payer that they are trying to cut costs.
Athletics and enrollment are cyclical and should be weighed less than geography.
Dave -
But why would we try to replicate something that already exists? Your point highlights the fact that if you dont make a school varsity team there are plenty of opportunities in the community to participate in sports. And how about when we take sports out of schools and all that funding suddenly dries up for all those other activities in schools that benefit from the money generated by sports.
Bill Gamble:
As for cutting down straw men, where in John’s post did he say the size of EP was bad for students?
John didn’t say that, nor do I think he believes it. I was ripping the writer of the email he received who brought up the argument that Eden Prairie must build a second high school.
Having the ability for more kids to play sports is fine. But, I don’t remember ever hearing anyone complain. Eden Prairie has a lot of opportunities to play sports, whether it’s for a high school varsity team or a city league team. It’s not like they either play high school sports, or they don’t play at all.
Also, the large enrollment of the school allows them to keep a lot of the sports that would likely have withered and died at a break-off school (ex: wrestling), as well as giving them the opportunity to add new sports and intramural activities. It also allows them to keep the arts programs running when smaller schools are struggling with dwindling participation.
Nate-
They could still be funded. And there aren’t plenty of opportunities if you don’t make the varsity team once you get to high school in most sports. It’s an argument that I know will be dismissed by most. But I’ve had some interesting discussions about it. It does take away a lot of the “mega-school” vs. “smaller-school” vs. “public” vs. “private” vs. yada yada yada problems.
Wait, if you’re going to cut sports from schools entirely, then shouldn’t ALL extracurricular (band, debate, theatre) be cut? How is that any different? There are cuts and competitions in those too. Privite foundations to a nice job running those things too. Do you believe we should do that dave?
Funny - this isn’t about anything other than the principals south of the river, on behalf of their whining coaches, not wanting more competition. Grow a pair, and complete with kids your own size . . . . .
Thor -
Maybe we should? I don’t know enough about it. I guess I’m focusing on the topic at hand. I just threw out another option for handling sports. I’m not advocating one side or the other really.
What I do know about the other extracurricular activities is that they don’t cause school officials to get their undies in a bunch over which conference they are in.
Still wish the plan that John laid out months ago would happen. I think for the schools to survive, they almost need to remerge into one. With the out of this world enrollment of these schools, Kennedy and Jefferson have no shot at competing with these teams.
You can have as high of enrollment as you want but you still need talent. While their is a some correlation between the two, high enrollment does not automatically equal successful sports. So much of it has to do with the make up of the community, and the type of programs in place for youth sports. If enrollment alone was enough then Stillwater, Mayo and EP should win everything since they are the biggest schools. But thats not the case. EP has a good football program because they have good youth football from young kids up threw 9 and 10th grade. Edina has always had a strong hockey program because they have strong youth programs that develop kids from a young age. Hopkins has a good basketball program because they recruit (oh wait how did that get in there). This whole enrollment discussion just seems to get out of hand.
Brian
Kennedy and Jefferson have no shot at competing with the bigger schools? Apparently you do not watch Hockey. Rosseau is in the tournament almost every year and they choose to play the big schools when they could play the other schools their size. Don’t make poor Jefferson and Kennedy look like the have their hands out on this one. This whole argument is because some parents that are living through their kids want everything handed to them.
Brian, I will try to find a couple past columns I have written on this subject and post links. Thanks for the idea.
The problem with privatizing varsity sports is that you basically turn every team into a “private” school or to some degree, a professional type team. Players would shift from team to team every year, and community loyalty would basically goes out the door. Not saying none of that happens now, but it would be dwarfed compared to what would happen if varsity sports were privatized.
In the grand scheme of things, conference affiliations are only for regular season scheduling purposes and do not affect the playoff systems a great deal other than seedig considerations. Maintaining traditional rivalries, matching up similar programs from a competitive standpoint and keeping travel to a minimum should be the primary considerations in this debate. With that being said, it makes no sense to have teams from the edges of the South Metro area with enrollments in the 1,800 range being forced to accept and play teams from the West Metro area with enrollments in the 3,000 range. The original ideas that John Millea has proposed in the past are among the only well thought out and rational ideas that are out there. Populations and demographics are going to continue to change and sports funding is being put under a greater microscope than ever, so school administrators and the MSHSL would do well to figure out a smoother process in the future to mediate these types of issues.
I think Nate has a good point about enrollment but I do think it depends on the sport. Football is a numbers game versus basketball could just need a couple of talented players with some roll players. This could be said for many sports.
I believe the whole Lake Conference debate could be solved quite easily if they just did what seems to be the most reasonable suggestion that John Milliea has suggested. I don’t see the big debate? South of the river teams want there own conference, let them. Chaska/Chanhassen want to be competitive somewhere, let them go to the Missota. That leaves the super schools, let them play each other and hopefully someone else will step up to the plate so they have atleast six. Is it that hard?
Isn’t anyone looking at driving times? How long do you think it would take Minnetonka to bus a team to Rosemount and then return? Probably more than two hours. Three hours for the competition, and that’s a huge chunk of time- to say nothing about gas.
That’s the big reason why several schools bailed out of the Lake Conference years ago- driving times were getting ridiculous.
I like the idea of the Lake North and Lake South. I was in or involved with a few sports in EP (yes, people can still enjoy the sports without being on the varsity football team), and I enjoyed the rivalries between certain schools in certain sports. I’d hate to see that end. If the other Lake schools want to shrug off EP because they’re sore losers, because of one sport (albeit an important one), then that is just lame. Break it up between north of river and south of river, that makes the most sense.
As for the ‘everyone can play’ arguement, grow up. For one, its competition. What appreciable difference is 20 FB starters, or 5 bball starters) in 500 comparted to 800? I went to EP in the 90’s, my brothers went there during the enrollment swell (youngest bro was in the biggest class, grad ‘04). There was plenty to do. That’s the biggest benefit of such a large school. i was in band and choir, of which there were several of each. The program definitely benefited from its size. When I dropped out of the school bball teams, I did intramurals, and arguably had more fun. Its about involvement, whether or not you are on the top program.
Another thought- talking about school enrollment, I would guess that 4-500 students in the High School come from outside the district. Minnetonka allots about 40,000 dollars a years to advertise its school system. If kids stayed within their school district, that might effect the numbers drastically.
I asked yesterday about the enrollments of the schools because I thought it would help bring some perspective to the issue of realignment.
But size is not the only issue here. It looks like a lot of the debate here is over the priority that some school districts with greater financial resources than others are giving the major interest sports like Eden Praire does in football and Hopkins does in basketball.
The comments about facilities in the Lake Conference principals’ presentation really crystalizes this issue for me: Just because these schools have the wherewithal to raise millions of dollars for sports facilities and coaching staffs, should they be allowed to do it?
Is that championship trophy really worth it to the education of the students? Shouldn’t these resources be more fairly allocated to all the students and not just the elite athletes?
And no, I’m not the “give ‘em all a trophy” Euphorian that is used as a strawman by some of you when this type of discussion is held.
Links to three columns on this subject have been posted.
This whole money goes to sports facilities but not education is simply a non sequitor. A lot of those very nice athletic facilities that have been added on to places like EP and Hopkins and elsewhere generate a lot of money for the school from community sports and other community activities paying fees to use them. And in no way is there money for huge coaching staffs. While they do get paid to coach the majority of High school coaches are also teachers at the school.
I still think that Hastings has to be involved in this somewhere, with trips to Forest Lake, Mounds View, Roseville, and White Bear, they dont belong in the Suburban East. They need to be with their county schools.
Hey Royal…check the enrollments. South of the river schools are basically 30% to 50% smaller than the west metro schools. Only one coach that I have heard whining and that is Coach Grant.
I’m pretty sure the vote to leave has nothing to do with competition…I think you’ll find all of those schools have more than held their own as reflected by the MSHSL Cup results:
School Name AA Points
Eden Prairie High School 971
Wayzata High School 814
Edina High School 763
Eastview High School 613.2
Hopkins High School 531
Minnetonka High School 513
Stillwater Area High School 510
Lakeville North High School 479.8
Roseville Area High School 479
Apple Valley High School 414.2
Forest Lake High School 414
Mounds View High School 408
Maple Grove High School 386.2
Saint Michael-Albertville H.S. 382
Woodbury High School 380
Centennial High School 360
Eagan High School 355.2
Burnsville High School 347.8
Lakeville South High School 338.8
Red Wing High School 337
Rosemount High School 333.2
Noticed 5 of the top 6 are the ones left behind in the “new” Lake Conference. They should be excited to be challanged on a weekly basis. They just might not fair as well in important things like the MSHSL Challange Cup.
Possible compromise: We are in this situation because the Classic Lake schools had problems filling out their schedule. The schools should split in to the two conferences: the “Mega Lake” (EP, Wayzata, Edina, Tonka, Hopkins) and the “Dakota Lake” (the rest of the Lake Conference schools plus Hastings, minus Chaska/Chan). In exchange for not having one big Lake Conference, the Dakota Lake schools would have to agree to play the Mega Lake schools a certain number of games every year. For example, in football the Dakota Lake schools would have to play one Mega Lake school each year. For basketball/hockey, they would need to schedule two Mega Lake schools. For a ten year period, a Dakota Lake school would have to play Eden Prairie in football only twice, rather than 8 to 9 times if they were one big conference. For basketball, a Dakota Lake school would only have to play Hopkins 4 times, instead of 16 to 18 times over a ten year period.
Perhaps they could ask the NW Suburban conference to join in the scheduling agreement; so the Dakota Lake schools would have to play the Mega Lake schools less, and the Mega Lake schools could have more guaranteed games on their schedule.
Mike -
explain this to me. You said “i’m pretty sure the vote to leave has nothing to do with competition…I think you will find all of those schools have more than held their own.” Who do you think are the ones voting to leave? It is not EP, Wayzata, or Edina. It is those south of the river who clearly cannot compete with the likes of the EP’s, or Wayzata’s. The only schools south of the river high on that list are Eastview (a newer school with very high enrollment) and Lakeville North.
And as someone said the whole conference thing gets blown out of context with championships because sections are so different than conferences.
Jeff, shat Nate said. Also, have you seen EPHS? They dedicate TONS of money to their students, and have great teachers. So, sorry to say, but your comment sounds a bit commie. Do I like that EP is a money dump, where for the most part only the rich and privileged get to live? No, because I probably won’t get to raise my kids there. Is that the nature of suburbs, that some are wealthier than others? you betcha. So like or not, it is what it is.
Another thought. Since EP is so huge and the talent pool is so large, why do I not see EP kids filling the all-metro teams year after year? or why don’t EP kids get FB scholarships much? I can think of maybe a handful of EP D1 recruits in the past decade or so, and thats it.
Ryan,
It’s easy to make that sore loser argument when you’re constantly on the winning end. As a Lake alum, EP was usually at or near the top is most sports, certainly the big ones. I’m not advocating that they should get rid of EP, but I don’t like the idea of adding 3-4 more schools of EP’s calibre.
That said, Lake North and South could be a good compromise to this whole thing. Each team could play everyone else in their conference the appropriate number of times (dependent on the sport) and then have a rotational schedule for the schools in the other conference to fill out the rest - sort of like what the Big 12 does. I do think there is something to be said about rivalries that are already established.. I would actually miss playing EP. I just don’t get jazzed about the idea of playing Tonka, Edina, Wayzata and Hopkins on top of them. I also know from my wife (EP grad) that Edina is as big of a rivalry of EP as anybody, so that would actually be great for the conference. It’s always good when there is passion in the stands and EP/Edina would surely have that. I was disappointed when it wasn’t the hockey final this year…but this is all beside the point.
I’m on board for the Lake North and Lake South idea.
EP, Tonka and Wayzata require high enrollments to win. If the exact same coaches were handed jobs at Columbia Heights, St Louis Park or SW Minneapolis, the sports programs would still suck. Let’s be honest about this.
P.S. Did Edina find a new football coach? Probably the most thankless job in Minnesota prep sports - jerk parents, privileged and talentless kids, and a no-win schedule.
This is not only a Lake/Classic Lake Conference problem. There are a number of conferences that need to be realligned. To name a few issues. Why should Red Wing have to travel to Hutchinson and vice versa. What is Richfield doing in the Classic Suburban? Hastings in the Suburban East. The Tri Metro is a cluster of private schools and lower income cities. John proposed a reallignment that made a lot of sense a couple months ago. With some tweaking it would be a good idea, but it would ruffle way too many feathers and makes way too much sense for the MSHSL to even think about.
Hey Norm, go insult some one else. I have coached sports and particpated in varsity sports and my point was with 3000 kids in a school we spend a lot of time and money devoted to a very small percentage of the population. You probably have to go now Norm, Suite Life with Zach and Cody is on.
Nate,
Clearly your focus was athletics and not education in what I’m assuming was one of those Classic Lake schools. Eastview’s enrollments is approx. 800 less than EP and 7th of this group.( By the way Eastview scheduled Wayzata for the footbal season opener…that doesn’t seem like fear of competition) The fact that they held their own is exactly the reason its not a decision based on competition.
Last comment…you’re clearly not in the know when you say they don’t have money for huge coaching staffs. There is very little money in any school budget for coaches. They are primarily paid for by Booster club money. Bigger school, bigger booter club, more money, bigger/better coaching staffs. I don’t have a problem with that…its the model everyone uses, but to say there is no money for coaching staffs is not accurate and silly to write.
Rob, perhaps I am a bit harsh, but my comment still stands. Imagine being in the same conference as Cretin. Its one sport, and while EP has been pretty dominant lately (I’ll give you that), the demographics aren’t on EP’s side. Class sizes are going down, and soon enough we’ll be like Edina, still talented but sanely sized.
Also, I was going to make the Big 12 analogy, but wasn’t sure it’d have the desired effect. Its really the best solution. EP loved to play Lakeville in FB, good rivalry there, I’d hate to see it go. I was in track, and I loved going against B.Jeff and Apple Valley and Eagan. I’m pretty stoked about getting to play the classic lake schools (and yes, Edina in particular).. battle of the cake eaters. Ya, I just said that. 
Ryan-
First of all, I agree with that EP dedicates a ton of money to having great teachers. The coaches are not paid much at all compared to what coaches deserve for the amount of time they put into their sport. Many of the coaches are volunteers or the teams fund raise in order to be able to pay the extra coaches needed to accommodate such large participation numbers.
Your comment that EP is just a big money dump where mostly only the rich can live suggests you have not actually been in EP recently. There are been several low income housing areas built in recent years in EP, including several apartments and town homes. Eden Prairie has a very large population of Somali immigrants living there who do not have much money at all after leaving everything behind in order to flee their war-torn country and come to America. If only the rich could live in EP, I’m pretty sure you would not see very many of these immigrants living there.
Mike -
Sorry to burst your buddle, but yes I did go to EP, I did was an honors student who took multiple AP classes graduated well at the top of my class, got a full scholarship for college and graduate with honors from law school. So no athletics was not my focus.
And Eastview is really the anomaly from that group as they were able to attract kids to a new school from Eagan, and Apple Valley.
And it was the millions comment about coaching staff that I was trying to be a little more realistic about.
EPRunner: Both my parents and inlaws still live in EP, and I visit often. And my friends weren’t exactly loaded. I know not everyone in EP is atheltic, or smart, or pretty, but you could say the same about Edina. EP has rounded out nicely, I will admit. And it has an aging 80’s housing stock that will continue to lose value to Chan/Chaska, but the fact remains, EP is still much richer than most, and will probably echo Edina’s development. Ie, we used to call Edina ‘old money’ to our new money. EP may well end up the same.
Travel is an issue for these people? What, Burnsville to Chaska (a whole half hour)? Try living somewhere like Bemidji (an independant, btw), where the Central Lakes keeps threatening to disband if the MSHSL places them in the conference because of travel. Bemidji regulary travels to St. Cloud (2.5 hours), Duluth (near 3 hours), Moorhead (2+ hours), Warroad and Roseau (2.5 hours) and Grand Forks (2.25 hours) and occasionally the Twin Cities (4 hours). The closest games are Grand Rapids (1.25 hours) and Brainerd (1.5 hours) - and all those times are one way!
I suggest the Lake Conference folks shut up about travel, and grow a set!
Jeff and others,
The enrollment numbers given by the MSHSL are not actual enrollment numbers of the schools. They have been adjusted to take account of economically disadvantaged students in the school. Also, if you are like St. Thomas Academy and have only boys students, then your actual enrollment is doubled. These “normalized” enrollment number are used to determine which class (i.e AA, A, …) the school belongs in.
> EP, Tonka and Wayzata require high enrollments to win. If the exact same coaches were handed jobs at Columbia Heights, St Louis Park or SW Minneapolis, the sports programs would still suck <
Coach Dave Nelson has won wherever he’s been and won praise for developing young men as well as football players. Ignorant statements like this really besmirch good people toiling in this state’s high schools.
It’s hard to figure out exactly why some sore losers here see Eden Prairie as this nirvana of high-paid, pampered professionals. Drive down Dell Road south of the Crosstown and you’ll see a whole bunch of suburban tract houses and incomes that are exactly the same as Blaine or Burnsville or Bloomington. Eden Prairie is not an affluent suburb. Minntonka, on the other hand, is.
John-
I have to chuckle about the travel complaints as well. I grew up in Rochester (pre-Century HS) and the Big Nine stretches from Winona to Mankato to Faribault.
Easy solution to all these problems-get the coaches out of the MSHSL!!
There is affluence throughout the Twin Cities not just in Eden Prairie, Edina and Wayzata. Lots of money in St. Paul, Mpls, Prior Lake, White Bear Lake, Champlin, Stillwater, Eagan, Apple Valley, Woodbury, Maple Grove, Shoreview. Yeah some of those places may have a higher per capita income than others but collectively the difference is not that great.
Here are the 2008-2009 enrollment figures from the MSHSL website. There have been some inaccurate references to it in this thread and it shoots the notion that all south-of-the-river schools are small (note where Burnsville is on the list). It shows arguments about megaschools are largely red herrings; we’re not talking about huge differences in enrollments from the top to the bottom of the Lake and Classic Lake:
Eden Prairie High School 3099
Wayzata High School 3043
Champlin Park High School 3001
Burnsville High School 2984
Stillwater Area High School 2898
Minnetonka High School 2698
Blaine High School 2630
Coon Rapids High School 2565
White Bear Lake Area High School 2476
Woodbury High School 2475
Hopkins High School 2470
Maple Grove High School 2444
Chaska High School 2426
Anoka High School 2375
Eagan High School 2351
Forest Lake High School 2299
Edina High School 2232
Park High School 2226
Eastview High School 2211
Apple Valley High School 2180
Centennial High School 2162
Osseo High School 2104
Robbinsdale Armstrong High School 2087
Roseville Area High School 2007
Rosemount High School 1978
Brainerd High School 1964
Prior Lake High School 1884
Mounds View High School 1872
North High School 1849
Park Center High School 1772
Saint Francis High School 1759
Tartan High School 1722
Hastings High School 1692
Saint Paul Central High School 1691
Minneapolis South High School 1681
Bloomington Jefferson High School 1676
Rochester Century High School 1676
Lakeville North High School 1674
Robbinsdale Cooper High School 1671
Lakeville South High School 1670
Rochester Mayo High School 1628
Andover High School 1626
Elk River High School 1606
Buffalo High School 1596
Owatonna High School 1528
Moorhead High School 1527
Bloomington Kennedy High School 1483
Irondale High School 1469
Saint Cloud Tech High School 1462
Saint Paul Harding High School 1458
Minneapolis Southwest High School 1453
Farmington High School 1436
Shakopee High School 1435
Henry Sibley High School 1413
If we’re going strictly by enrollment then the Bloomington schools should be booted from the Lake — they really belong in a city conference with lesser foes. Compare the enrollments of Bloomington and Lakeville schools in the MSHSL Cup standings, and they are worlds apart.
I can believe grown men put this much effort in High School sports. If only this much effort went into making sure kids got a quality education.
Enrollment figures AS WELL are red herrings.
Yes, Burnsville is way up on that list, but that is going to dramatically change within two years. The upcoming junior and senior classes are two of the largest in Burnsville history and make up around 1600 of those students, and by the time the current juniors have graduated, enrollment will be closer to 2000, matching them closer with Eagan, AV, and Eastview.
Also, we may have put in a new field for the upcoming season, but it sure as heck is not gonna help a team that went 0-8 last year or a soccer team that has been subpar for years.
Somebody brought the point up already, but drive times seriously need to be looked at. I played two sports for Burnsville this fall, and combined, we had to travel to Eden Prairie twice, Hopkins, Minnetonka, Chaska, and Orono. Most of those nights, we didn’t get back to the high school until 7:30 or 8:00 PM. AND I’M FROM BURNSVILLE. Think about it for a kid from Rosemount. Students who need to be studying aren’t getting that opportunity because they’re stuck in traffic on 494. A Dakota County conference would have no more than about 20 minutes between any two schools.
Enrollment figures are a useful statistic, much like win-loss record in baseball, but they need to be looked at in context. Tax base and overall competitiveness need to be taken into account when this decision is finally made.
Look at it from the athlete’s point of view as well.
Lets use a little common sense here,
Add Farmington to the “Dakota County Conference”, the enrollment listed for Farmington is grades 10-12. Farmington is openning a new high school this fall with a stadium with turf. The new Farmington High School is less than 5 miles from Lakeville South. Hutch has already joined the Wright County. You also could throw Prior Lake into the mix or Hastings. A conference of Apple Valley, Eagan, Eastview, Rosemount, Lakeville North, Lakeville South, Burnsville, Farmington & Hastings would be a very competitive conference and the travel time and distance between the schools would be minimal. As for EP, yes they have good teams and good talent, but to be the best, you have to play the best competition. The gap between EP and the other Lake schools is not as wide as you think. EP is near the top in most sports, but they are not at the top in all sports.
If anyone is honestly going to come on here are argue that affluence is the same across all these metro suburbs, compared to Edina, EP, Wayzata and Tonka, please just excuse yourself from the conversation. If you don’t realize that their is more money in those communities going to the boosters, going towards the youth programs, building better facilities, etc etc etc, then you are bringing no credibility to the conversation.
And I’m not saying there is anything wrong with those communities…there is a reason I desire to live in the SW Metro someday. But let’s stop trying to argue that Rosemount (as an example) is the same as Edina. Please. We are all smarter than that.
I think DakotaCOuntyConference-guy is making a lot of sense.
I can;t believe how many people can say so much on knowing so little about a subject except to complain, especially the clueless EP bashing.
The Lake used to be way too large and split off Osseo, Park Center, and the original Classic Lake schools. Too many schools cause scheduling limitations and nightmares.
Let the schools solve their issues.
Ryan- I agree w/ what you just said-not all of EP is rich, but in general the city has more money than some others. My comment was in response to your statement that you will never be able to afford to live in EP, b/c I’m pretty sure if you really wanted to live there you could find housing that is just as affordable as it is else where.
The numbers for Minnetonka is for 9-12, not 10-12. Take away a quarter of the enrollment and all of a sudden Minnetonka is not a megaschool.
Being a former lake conference athlete, I really don’t think the drive time is that bad, especially compared to some other conferences others mentioned above. I’ve driven from EPHS to Buck Hill in Burnsville in about 20 min. after school, so I complaining about driving from Burnsville to EP and Tonka is kinda dumb IMO. Tonka HS is pretty close to EP so that’s probably like a 25 min drive from Burnsville or so, maybe 30 min…not a big deal. Rosemount is a bit longer drive, but it’s not like you play there all the time and it’s still not that bad a drive.
There’s a slew of $250,000 homes in northern Eden Prairie. Minnetonka has some very affluent areas around the Lake, but there’s no grossly rich area of Eden Prairie, even along Anderson Lakes Parkway. It’s a myth Eden Prairie is an affluent burb.
As far as a megaschool for Eden Prairie: the high school was built with a prediction of future growth. The actual size of the school district was set forth, what 40 or 50 years ago?
All these ill-informed haters getting all het up about high-school sports. Instead of hating, COMPETE. That’s what Minnetonka did in bringing in Dave Nelson. That’s what the Lakeville schools do.
The comment about moving the schools to the NW Suburban is rediculous. The 2 nearest schools are Maple Grove and Wayzata and they are at least 15 minutes apart. What happens with a Minnetonka trip to Centennial or Elk River on a school day during rush hour?
This debate is less about EP and more about the other conferences not wanting to add the Classic Lake Schools.
Lake Conference Schools, we are laughing at you.
I work with conferences in Illinois, Ohio, Indiana…quite interesting about the Lake Conference between the Supt’s and Principal, same thing happened in Ohio.
These type of things can cause more problems. It can sometimes be like a divorce.
We do tell conf officials don’t do your business in the media, although each reporter we work with do great jobs on coverage. John M has done great follow-up.
One thing we tell folks - Set the example, don’t be the example. Looks like the Lake needs to do some “inner soul searching”
Tonkaboy - all the numbers are for grades 9-12 . . . . . even though Tonka and others, such as Hopkins, have middle schools for grades 7-9, the MSHSL considers grades 9-12 as “high school”. In all fairness, so do the schools, because many 9th graders make HS varsity teams.
Roseau your laughing at the Lake for what? Because the MSHSL forced the defunct classic lake teams, down their throat? And all the other conferences(nw suburban) ran a hid? They were reasonable and planned to admit 2 teams. but it didn’t turn out that way. So the current members are doing what’s in their best interest. They’re so terrible, what wrong with them? And for all the people telling the lake school, to grow some. And saying they’re afraid of the competition. What are you thinking they already play in the premiere conf in the state. And routinely play the now defunct classic lake teams, in all sports. And btw the screams of arrogance? Didn’t the classic lake bullies kick Armstrong out of the conf? Sure they did, but hey it’s fashionable to bash the Lake. Because they’re the bad guys. LOL
If you out-state guys travel more than two hours on a school night for some athletic event, then something has to be done. On Fridays, maybe- kids can sack in on Saturday.
Tonka to Chaska is a ten minute drive. Tonka to Rosemount is well over an hour one-way. What’s the point?
Someone has to take control and tell these Supers what conference their High School will play in. It’s all about the kids, right? And, believe me, in twenty years no one will remember any of the scores of their High School games.
Bringing back the one class system for all sports would go a long way in eliminating this nonsense.
Could someone please stand up and be a grown up about this? Athletic/Activites Directors, Principals, Superintendents, anybody?
This is not rocket science, there are many scanarios that makes sense from one conference with south and north, to the various other combinations previously mentioned. Pick one that saves money, time and when at all in doubt benefits the student/athletes!!!!
Isn’t that what this should be about? The student/athletes? Life is not athletics….. for 99% of those participating at the high school level, only the very elite go to college and get a scholarship and even fewer ever make their living in their choosen sport.
Lets get this decided and move forward thinking more about how we are going to prepare our kids for the next step in life; college and all that entails and more importantly a global world that will make working and living with people that are vastly different from themselves common place and essential for success.
I am the daughter of a long time hall of fame coach, the wife a man that went to school on an athletics scholarship, a D3 vs D1 collegiate athlete by choice and the mother of two daughters, both of whom participated in high school athletics and one who is now on an athletic scholarship at a DI school, I think I am somewhat qualified to speak on the value of athletics, winning, loosing, participating in a state tournament, the whole deal; it’s a learning experience, let’s put some perspective on it. To the people who make the decisions; make the right decision by thinking of the kids and their future, not for their high school years which is a very short, really short, period in their lives. This shouldn’t be about egos, arrogance or anything but the best interest of the kids’future and how athletics may or may not enhance their experience in some small way.
Double D:
I’m not seeing a hatchet job done on the Lake Conference, and I certainly don’t blame any of them for not the 4 remaining Classic Lake schools in their conference. These schools don’t really belong in the NW Suburban either. The SW metro schools aren’t an ideal fit anyplace. To me it seems a reasonable solution to take the 4 Classic lake Schools, throw Eden Prairie in the mix and toss Cretin in for the 6th team. To fill scheduling requirements, require that that the Lake and NW Suburban schedule non-conference games against these 6 schools as part of the deal for keeping these teams out of their conferences. The SW Metro conference can, later include Prior Lake and/or Shakopee when and if their enrollment and program strength merits their inclusion.
DoubleD
What makes a conference the “premiere” conference? Was the Lake the “premiere” conference when Wayzata, Minnetonka, Hopkins, Edina, Armstrong,
Richfield, St Louis Park and Cooper were members before forming the Classic Lake? Or, when Park Center and Fridley were Lake members along with Lincoln, Kennedy, Jefferson, Apple Valley, Burnsville and Rosemount? The Lake was once a 16-team conference. A 14-team conference with cross overs certainly enhances scheduling opportunities. Schools and athletes in the “premiere” conference should play the best in the state.
how much does this matter?
RD, When those teams were in the Lake, back in the day. I’m sure it was probably was the top conf. But right now as currently constructed the Lake is the state’s best conf. And that is in all sports, across the board. If isn’t the state’s best, than who is? And don’t say it’s the lame duck classic lake. They ran or kicked the rest of their conf rivals, out of their league. And even if they still had (Richfield,Cooper,Stl Pk,Armstrong). Top to bottom the Lake still has the edge.
i go to ep right now and i’m a junior. I think its lame that all this is going to happen when im a senior. The game agaist chaska is what we look forward to and all that crap about us being rich is faulse. Look at the races in are school compared to other and we have alot more minorites then others. I think one school should be add cause if all are add and it is EP and the new one. Then the winner of that confrence will probally win it all. Its not just talent that helps make a team good. IT’s also who you play that determines it you get better by competition
How can we increase participation in each school and still have a competitive situation? If each school had a giant intramural program, and it was done in a classy way, many students would be involved. At the close of the season each school could send their champion to various extra-mural sites for a series of playoff games to determine area and eventual state champions.
I realize some schools would cheat to send their best, but that detail could be worked out by getting the administrators involved in team selection.
There you have it, the best of both worlds!!!!
Hey all these principals and ADs need to put there money where there mouth is and do something about this we can’t all just sit and complain about how bad the situation is and think about the athletes not these stupid people at the top (that means you jefferson principal)
I can’t believe all this talk regarding HS sports alignment is a hot topic!
Try going to a city school where there’s no funding for extra curricular activities, the teachers are the worst, the schools are in bad shape, etc!
I finished my HS career @ a Mpls school after competing on varsity for a lake conf school in 10th grade. I live in Dakota county now because of my experiences with city schools. If my kids dont play varsity sports so what, if they do and lose every game so what. I’ll tell them to lick their wounds and go @ it again. We’re putting too much emphasis on High School sports as if thats the end of the road. Your team could do horribly on varsity or your kid could not even make the varsity team and still get recognized by college scouts!
Didn’t Edina, Tonka, Wayzata and Hopkins bolt from the Lake Conference without telling the rest of the member schools. That’s the sore spot in all of this. This is why the rest of the Lake (hardly looks like the Lake as most of the schools are below the Minnesota River) hates those schools. They broke away to form the Classic Lake to GET AWAY from the larger Dakota County schools because Rosemount area schools were on top. Classic Lake schools lost their credibility the moment they did it and their good will is gone. I like Eden Prairie and Mike Grant (Bloomington Lincoln grad), but they need to form two or three football teams : Eden Prairie Black and Eden Prairie Red. I’ve seen this done at New Trier High School in the North Shore of Chicago in hockey and it worked really well and they remained super competitive. It would be fun to see as they have so much talent, great youth system and coaching.
