Twins talk: revised batting order debate
Posted on June 30th, 2008 – 1:03 PMBy Michael Rand
We heard E3 — the affectionate term for colleague La Velle E. Neal III — on KFAN both yesterday and today talking about Denard Span and what his call-up for the injured Michael Cuddyer will mean for the Twins and their usual batting order. E3 threw out the possibility of Span moving to the leadoff role, while Go-Go rolls into the ninth spot. That would give the Twins a three-man speed threat, assuming Alexi Casilla stays in the No. 2 spot. Span is a better OBP guy than Gomez, so putting him higher up makes sense. That said, Go-Go has been in that role all year and provides a clear spark. The next question is what happens to the No. 5 spot. If the Twins roll with Kubel, that puts three lefties in a row (Mauer and Morneau preceding), which can be a favorable matchup for an opponent in the late innings. Batting an improving Delmon Young fifth offers better balance. Production-wise, though, Kubel seems like the best fit. Our thought, overall:
1. Gomez
2. Casilla
3. Mauer
4. Morneau
5. Young
6. Kubel
7. Buscher
8. Harris
9. Span
In terms of Gomez, it might make more sense from a numbers standpoint to move him, but there is more to baseball than numbers. Don’t upset the applecart — at least not yet. If a week from now Span has shown he is earning a higher place, maybe consider flip-flopping him with Gomez. For now, it still gives the Twins three fast guys who put pressure on fielders in a row. As for Young, his strong June and right-handed presence earn him a promotion in the order. Kubel is fine at No. 6 and provides balance.
Your thoughts? (By the way, our question should be answered in a few hours after lineups are posted. We’re guessing La Velle’s blog will be the place to be for a continued debate later).
32 Responses to "Twins talk: revised batting order debate"
“In terms of Gomez, it might make more sense from a numbers standpoint to move him, but there is more to baseball than numbers. ”
So we now know who Michael drafted in the first round of his “man-crush” draft. If you can’t trust the numbers what can you trust?
Span should be leading off with Gomez as the caboose. It might all be a moot point if Casilla has to go on the DL too.
I have long believed that batting orders are overrated. I think, in the interest of fairness, the Twins should bat their players in the order used for scoring outs with the team conceding the DH to bat the pitcher leadoff.
In fact, I think MLB should adopt the position/batting order option as a rule for the entire sport. Everyone would know what to expect when they went to the park and it would finally shut up all of those idiots who think Mauer should bat second.
BAT MAUER SECIND ALREDY WIL YA!!!
The thing is, whether we have Gomez or Span batting ninth, it’ll be the best #9 they’ve had in a while.
And I realize that I just went from “we” to “they” in the span of 11 words. My allegiances change that abruptly.
This idiot says that Mauer should actually probably lead off but we all know that will never happen. I think the order should really just go with your best hitter batting 1st followed by your next best hitter and your worst hitter batting 9th. That seems all to logical and we all know that MLB managers tend to outthink most situations. (I’m looking straight at you Ron Gardenhire)
I don’t think it needs work yet. If Span comes up and manages a .350+ OBP, he should be our leadoff guy. Gomez is fun to watch, but he’ll be just as fun in a spot where strikeouts aren’t as painful, and where it’s not quite as big a deal if you don’t work out a two-ball count all night.
I refuse to admit there is more to baseball than numbers.
I’d move Gomez to the nine hole and push everyone else up a slot. Batting orders don’t usually make a ton of difference, but I can’t see why Gomez deserves more at-bats than Casilla, Mauer, Morneau and the rest.
There are some other rule changes in sports that I feel should be adopted:
NBA teams should indicate the scoring averages of their players through the length of their shorts. The longer the shorts, the higher the scoring average, the shorter the shorts the lower the scoring average.
Soccer nets should be raised five feet off of the ground with goaltenders required to wear stilts.
NFL kickers should required to either kick barefoot or wearing a wooden shoe.
All cold-weather NHL stadiums should have retractable roofs.
Didn’t Bill James or some other fun-killing stat head do a study that showed a team’s run production would increase if a team put the batters in descending order according to OBP? I can’t believe Billy Beane hasn’t tried this yet.
What a coincidence, I have long thought Rocket was overrated.
I like moving Young up to $5, I think–I think that’s where he hit last year for the Rays.
I’ve not understood why people have complained about him all year–the complaint about lack of HR should be nullified by looking at his HR totals last year. His average is about the same now (was down for a while–as everyone tends to do, throughout the year), and he was driving in more runs last year–batting fifth, rather than sixth, and with no Mauer/Morneau/Cuddyer to clean up the base paths in front of him.
I actually just created a slick Excel chart using a proprietary formula that definitively proves that the use of stats does not, in fact, kill fun.
(Toonces: people who complain about Delmon note that in the two categories more important than average - OBP and SLG - he is woefully below average. Also, some of us miss Matt Garza)
I actually just created a slick Excel chart using a proprietary formula that definitively proves that the use of stats does not, in fact, kill fun.
I’m more impressed by the graph of “Boys brought to the yard by respective milkshakes”
Ah, yes. And the pie chart of doing anything for love, but not that.
I’m pretty sure the first Conventional Wisdom Hunt Down will be Statistics: Killing Baseball, or Aiding and Abetting Your Enjoyment In Lieu of the Female Touch (or Male Touch, I Don’t Judge, That’s for Jesus to Do)
I still remember the first day I learned about OPS and VORP. I remember thinking, “man, these are such useful tools to gauge the productivity of hitters,” and then, all of a sudden, I realized I hated baseball.
Delmon doesn’t deserve to be in the lineup, let alone, hitting 5th. Is “improving” his continued hacking at the first pitch or is it his continued opposite field tendencies that aren’t working out.
Maybe “improving” is the fact that he sat out of three games last week so his strikeouts and flyouts to right field are down.
I’m almost to the point that I would like to see Punto take over for Delmon…… Almost
I remember thinking, “man, these are such useful tools to gauge the productivity of hitters,”
Nerd. Who talks/thinks like that?
Putting “man” in front of it doesn’t make it less lame either.
Some examples:
“Man, this Dungeons and Dragons book is really intense!”
“Man, I really love olive loaf!”
“Man, that Star Wars exhibit was far superior to the Star Trek convention”
Also, some of us miss Matt Garza
Speaking of Conventional Wisdom Hunt Downs, the Terry Ryan Never Ever Trade Your Pitching Prospects Ever Concept sure looks a lot smarter now, doesn’t it?
Come on now, Coyote, let’s not be THAT crazy. My tolerance for first pitch swings is much higher than my tolerance for headfirst slides into first base.
What about putting “man” at the end of the sentence?
Some examples:
“I just put a saucy red polish on my toes, man.”
“Did you watch that killer episode of Groomer Has It last night, man?”
“My Kevin Love chinstrap is really coming in, man!”
Oh, and I really do love olive loaf.
Man, my blog commenter friends are really on the ball today.
The Hootie is only partially ashamed to admit that he’s probably uttered 2/3 of the example statements given by Dave. Man, I’m a nerd.
Truth: make a grilled cheese sandwich with olive loaf bread at some point. Seriously, it’s fantastic.
You olive-loaf-bread-heads are ruining the sport of sandwich eating.
I’m actually talking about Oscar Meyer’s ham-like meat slices with olives magically sewn in. It’s glorious!
Olive loaf would be more popular if it wasn’t called olive loaf. What’s wrong with just saying ‘olive bread’?
i.e.: beer bread = delicious, beer loaf = gross.
I’m actually talking about Oscar Meyer’s ham-like meat slices with olives magically sewn in. It’s glorious!
So is Blue but he’s dead. You’re my boy!!!
Brandon - His OBP is higher this year than last. His SLG is definitely lower (.030 or so). Both may be below average, but compared to last year, in his second full season in the bigs, they’re not far off from what I would expect.
And I still here more people complaining about his HR totals and RBI totals, which is a joke. He hit 13 HR last year–suddenly we think he’s a 30 HR threat?
Admittedly, he sounds like a bit of a head case, and he needs to tell daddy to back off, let him be a man, and deal with the coach that gets paid to help him. But that’s a whole different argument, and one I wouldn’t complain if I heard “experts” making.
As for Garza…well, whether our head case is in LF or on the mound every 5th day, what’s the big difference?
Clarence: I believe “meat loaf” sounds more appetizing than “meat bread”
Dave/latte-
I was confused and thought that olive loaf was a type of bread. Then Stu made a comment about ‘olive loaf bread’ and I’m just not bright enough to sort it all out.
