‘Share the Road’ event: Working for harmony
Posted on April 23rd, 2007 – 6:05 AMBy Roadguy
Roadguy had heard about the “Share the Road” event for months (his readers had, too), so when the magic date rolled around on Friday, he headed over to West River Parkway in Minneapolis to check out the myriad offerings. They included:
Girl Scouts with Burma-Shave-type signs to encourage drivers to slow down:
(Troop 1076’s message: “If you can/ read this sign/ you’re doing/ just fine” — speedwise, at least.)
Law-enforcement types on horses:
(Note that the horses were not in motion while the officer used his cell phone.)
A very large fish out of water:
(That would be Freddie the Catfish, a mascot of the National Park Service, the agency that oversees the Mississippi River Gorge, which begins just beyond the roadway and paths behind him.)
Public officials waxing poetic about safety, neighborhoods, the greater good, and the environment:
That’s Scott Vreeland, a Park Board member who might look familiar and who spoke about the rewards of driving at or below the speed limit: While riding his motorcycle along the parkway, he spotted an eagle flying over the gorge, right there in the heart of the Twin Cities, and he noted that speeders miss out on the kinds of experiences that the parkway was designed to provide.
He’s right — the parkways were built many decades ago for the primary purpose of recreational driving, and now they’re often crowded with commuters’ vehicles, bicyclists, joggers, skaters and pedestrians, all vying for limited space during an era with limited public resources for improvements. For the “Share the Road” event, community groups joined with MnDOT to call for calm and to raise awareness of the existing laws, which, as we know, are far from universally understood. (For last month’s Roadguy post about the parkway, click here; for a quick review of selected bike-car laws, click here.)
Organizers of the event knew that no one would show up for a mass scolding, so they mixed the educational components with healthy servings of levity. For example, kids got to shake hands with Elmer the Elm:
(That’s Elmer, the Park Board mascot, on the right; the event’s emcee, Gary Hendlin, is at left.)
Perhaps the most intriguing attraction was the opportunity for people of all ages to help make bicycle-powered smoothies:
Riding the bike is Gabriella, who happens to work in IT for MnDOT and is president of the Birchwood Cafe’s bike team. She also commutes 13 miles each way to work via bike, so she didn’t even come close to breaking a sweat as she pulverized some bananas and strawberries. Behind her is Ashley of The Hub Bike Co-op, which provided the exercise bike, the blender and the ingredients.
After attending the main event at E. 27th Street (at the Midtown Greenway’s eastern end), Roadguy got on his bike and headed down the parkway to check out some of the other sites and sights. There were additional low-tech Burma-Shave messages, a tent offering lemonade and cookies, and a high-tech electronic reminder that drivers should ease up:
(Roadguy always forgets that school buses are allowed on the parkways. They seem a bit out of place, given the truck ban, but families with kids live on the parkways, and the kids need to get home.)
Roadguy’s southernmost goal was the 44th Street tent…
… which was across the street from the Becketwood retirement community. Earlier that day, alert reader Dob had written to tell me about a challenging crosswalk right in front of Becketwood:
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| Just add foliage |
There are a number of issues. The double-S curve, the concrete curved wall that you can’t see around … the lack of signage for motorists approaching around the wall northbound … and the crosswalk sign placements. The one for northbound drivers doesn’t let you know there is a crosswalk until you curve around to it. … From the other direction, the crosswalk warning sign is right at the crosswalk and has a tree branch hanging directly in front of the sign to obscure it from motorists!
Residents have said that they assume [that] each time they cross may be their last. One of the residents, Bob, said he has often thought of laying a manequin down with fake blood on it, to make people think. …They are a lively bunch….
Roadguy was a little disappointed that they didn’t actually go ahead with the mannequin, but he did get to meet a few Becketwood residents, including one named Mary. Mary said that she’d talked to some police officers and that the best thing to do would be to move the crosswalk a half-block north, to a straighter part of the parkway. Given the lack of funding for even basic paving of the paths, such a request might be a long shot, but it couldn’t hurt to ask.
Also at the tent was Dob herself, who demonstrated another challenge of the crosswalk signs:
As Dob put it: I have to bend down and stick my head in the street to see around it. It was also the rare situation in which wearing yellow to improve one’s visibility was actually counterproductive. But the shirts are pretty nice:
As Roadguy headed back up the parkway, he noticed another multimodal transportation challenge:
There were runners right next to the two-way bike path, and occasionally on the bike path, a situation that would then prompt a biker or two to ride over onto the walking path, creating hazards all around. Roadguy understands that runners prefer dirt to pavement, but all the veering reminded him of something else Dob had said in her e-mail:
Becketwood seniors … no longer feel comfortable using the walking path. They say that years ago, everyone said, “on your left” or a clear audible signal when they passed someone, but now nobody does. They said they admit that their hearing might not be what it used to be, but people are not trying to be audible. Mumbling something as you are already whizzing by is not sufficient or appropriate. They said residents have been bumped and even knocked over by hit and run offenders. Really sad.
Roadguy would like to note that a lot of seniors can still hear better than just about anyone with a cranked-up iPod blasting into their ears. Regardless, we’re all better off if our retirees are out getting excercise, and if they can barely get across the street and then find themselves in danger once they do, you can see why they might opt to share a couch instead.
So, there’s plenty to be done, but the “Share the Road” event was billed as a kickoff, so we’ll see where the momentum takes the several dozen people who were involved. They’ve got the attention of some elected officials, too — City Council Members Cam Gordon and Gary Schiff and Hennepin County Commissioner Peter McLaughlin were among those in attendance (if you’d like to hear their remarks, click here for a YouTube video shot at the event by alert reader Matty). And you probably have a few remarks of your own, so please share them below — in the same civilized manner in which you no doubt share the road.
93 Responses to "‘Share the Road’ event: Working for harmony"
Looked like a great time — sorry I missed it. Thanks for the recap, though!
Goodness! I was biking in the wrong area this weekend… I completely missed out. Oh well. At least I did get out and about before the heavy rain arrived! Actually, the b/f and I got caught in the early-afternoon rain while biking home from Menards in Richfield on Sunday. Luckily, they had poncho’s on sale ($3 with a $3 rebate offer!), so I wasn’t entirely soaked when I got home. My legs were pretty dirty, though… which reminds me, I need to purchase wheel guards soon!
Anyway, I had good luck while biking this weekend, as far as Moron encounters. We stayed on the trails for the most part, which were surprisingly light with bikers/bladers. Lots of walkers, though!
Roadguy, just a little point (for political correctness I suppose). “Joggers” went out years and years ago. We are now properly called runners! 
I lived on West River Road (between Lake and Franklin) for 17 yrs. The park board ruined it.
Their idea of improvements included narrowing the road to two lanes (previously it was about 3 lanes wide.) The cyclists claim the bike paths are too narrow, and so they ride on the road that has now been narrowed to two skimpy lanes. A really eyesore is the sign pollution. A continual stream of No Parking, 25 MHP, cross walk, stop signs, bike path signs, foot path signs, and their ‘grand rounds’ signs (like anyone cares but them.) The old road was much more senic, easier and safer to drive, and visually appealing.
They also created a driving hazzard. Going north, there is a left turn to Franklin east - you can’t see if traffic is approaching (comming south on W River Road) - cause it’s graded improperly - the redesign put a ‘hump’ in the road which creates a blindspot.
It’s not a shrine - it’s a road!
Drivers should not have to share the road on the parkway. THERE IS A BIKE PATH! Use it.
Drivers should not have to share the road on the parkway. THERE IS A BIKE PATH! Use it.
Once again, as a biker I have to remind drivers that bikes are legally allowed to use the road always, regardless of whether there is a bike path next to it. The bike path has a speed limit of 10 MPH. Even though this isn’t adhered to, there are a great deal of road bikers who bike along the parkway at 20 MPH or faster, and it is safer for everybody if they are on the road instead of the bike path.
Drivers are frustrated by bikers who disobey the law (like running stop signs). Bikers are frustrated by drivers who disobey the law (like trying to run bikers off the road). When will this cold war end?
As an aside, people really should be yelling “On your left” when passing. I do it so often I sometimes think I should make a little device that yells this message at the push of a button so I don’t have to scream myself.
When bikers obey the same traffic signs we as drivers have obey while driving in streets, then maybe we’ll be more apt to share the road with them. In the meantime, if there’s a sidewalk-use it!
I am a frequent biker along 11th behind the Dome and to the bike paths along the river. I use the bike lane and follow the traffic laws. I even use hand signals to convey my intentions. I have had so many close calls from drivers who don’t bother looking when making turns from 11th onto Washington.
I drive along this stretch as well and I have encountered many bikers who don’t bother with following the rules, it makes it hard for those who do. I even had one biker quickly dart out in front of me from the parking lot at Mill Run, it looked like he WANTED me to hit him. Luckily, I was very observent and stopped long before he came completely out of the of the lot. He tumbled his bike, about 10 yards in front of my stopped car and damaged his bike himself. Bikers and drivers need to be alert at all times and share the area.
Hey Roadguy, nice recap of the event (I was there too). Thanks especially for the link to the bike-car laws — that’s one thing I wished the event planners had provided.
Some very basic, non-politically correct thoughts. A car weighs about two tons. Your average bicycle rider goes maybe 150 lbs., pedestrians are similar. Regardless what the “law” says - a car will win this battle every time. Look both ways before you cross the street and don’t expect cars to stop for you. All you Lance Armstrong wannabes - use the paths provided. You are not racing, nor are you serving the greater public good. You are riding a bike and thats all fine and good, but you will lose in a collision. Drivers tend to be stupid and they do stupid things. This is all stuff I learned in the second grade, but now we have people trying to replace common sense with laws? I wouldn’t risk it.
Thanks Roadguy! I am a fair weather bike commuter. Somehow I completely missed out on this event and appreciate the recap.
Maybe some folks on the site can help me as I try to learn the local etiquette about when to give a warning on the bike path (”on your left” or ringing the bell).
Since I’m new to biking I started out warning everyone, even people who were keeping to the right or the path. Let’s just say they all didn’t seem to appreciate my concern for their safety.
Watching others I notice that most only shout or ring when (a) you can’t pass to the left (e.g. people walking two abreast), (b) there’s a decent chance you won’t be able to pass (e.g. a person or dog moving erratically). But of course you can’t see whether someone’s hard of hearing.
Obviously I try to pass as far away from a pedestrian as I can, and at a reasonable speed. But what’s good manners as to a warning?
To JC, Lucy and TMS, follow the link provided by Road Guy above and read the law. Bicycles do not mix well with pedestrians. Why don’t you drive you car on the sidewalk, Lucy? That’s why I don’t drive my bicycle on the sidewalk.
Also, follow the link to my video of the event, provided by Road Guy. If you’re too lazy here it is again:
I forgot to add one more thought:
Bicyclist does not equal anarchist. There are a few anarchists who bicycle on Twin Cities streets and they don’t like to follow the rules. They can and should be cited by law enforcement in such cases. Using the actions of a few anarchists to justify rage against law abiding cyclists is a weak excuse to say the least.
Biking on the sidewalk is illegal in many areas too, such as business districts.
There is no reason why drivers can’t cut bikers some slack.
Karin, “proper manners/etiquette” for rec paths is murky at best. Experience will be your best teacher as to what works and what doesn’t. The “some may be hard of hearing” actually equates into a great number, as many are handicapped by headphones and thus oblivious to the system trying to function around them.
For me personally, I rarely ride bike trails, but when forced to, I also rarely holler out anything. If my way is blocked, or the pedestrian/biker is very erratic, I’ll make an attempt to let them know of my presence. More often than not however, when I yell out “on your left” and they actually hear me, it startles all of them and half of them will jump left. I’ve found that not yelling does indeed also startle them, but by the time they’ve reacted and jumped whatever direction they’re going to jump, I’ve safely passed them. I feel d*mned if I yell and d*mned if I don’t, but not yelling has been safer. Others will surely berate me (especially pedestrians), but I ride as safely as I can, and I’ve had far fewer incidents by “blowing by” pedestrians unannounced.
Yes, it’s murky at best.
Ditto MNBikeCommuter- too often when I’ve said “on your left” to a pedestrian I’m about to pass, their immediate reaction has been to move to the left. I’m not blaming them, I’ve done the same thing myself. So if a pedestrian appears to be moving along in a straight line and I can easily pass, the best way to get them to maintain their position is to just go by. If they’re in the way I slow down and yell “excuse me, on your left” and wait for them to move.
I have been thinking about getting a bell though, I think there’s something friendly about ringing a bell at someone as you pass. Especially compared to yelling.
I’m glad TMS is concerned about my well-being. That garbage truck that ran a red light at 30mph+ this morning in front of me weighs a bit more than 2 tons. I hope TMS stays off the roads with his little 2 ton car. I’m concerned for his safety.
First of all, let me say that I am a sometime bicycle commuter and recreational rider. I am not a “cars only” roadhog. In fact, I hate cars, and ddrive them only out of necessity.
BUT–it does tick me off when bicyclists insist on riding in the parkways when there is a bike path not fifteen feet away. The vast majority of them are NOT going over 10 MPH (when have you seen a cop with a radar gun on a bike path?), and the vast majority are NOT obeying traffic laws, even basic ones like stopping at a stop sign. It’s not a matter of “rights,” it’s a matter of courtesy and common sense.
Isn’t complaining about riding on the street when a bike path is right there kind of like complaining about driving along a two-lane road when a freeway is right next to it? Both arguments are ridiculous.
There are all sorts of reasons that bikers don’t want to ride on the bike paths. They may be going too fast. They may not want to deal with rollerbladers, runners, or other people who go a lot more slowly. The bike path may be in a horrible condition (and the path along West River Parkway is awful).
Since it is perfectly legal to always bike on the road, there is no point in complaining about it.
Thanks Doctor Gonzo for the voice or reason.
“Since it is perfectly legal to always bike on the road, there is no point in complaining about it.”
CHANGE THE LAW!!!! “Bikes must use bike paths (when provided) during AM & PM rush hours.
Seeing the picture of the runner between the road and the bike path on W. River Pkwy. made me laugh. At least she was off the bike path. I’ve made a game of counting the number of runners on the bike path when I go running up and down W. River Pwky. Usually the ration is about 15-20 runners using the bike path to every one runner using the walking path. When I go biking on the bike path and pass runners I try to point out that the running path is “over there” as I point to it. The most galling is the fact that a lot of runners take up the whole bike path and some seem genuinely put out that they have to move for the bikes. Is anyone else fed up with the number of runners on the bike paths?
And as a biker on that road a lot, I’d say I’d prefer to ride on the bike path, as chewed up and congested as it is, versus the road itself, which is REALLY chewed up on the side of the road by the curb.
“why don’t you drive your car on the sidewalk” - put your helmet on “Matty” and go play in the street - your bothering the grown-ups….
While I usually don’t have a problem with bikes in the road, I find that if there is a path provided for bikes that it should be used for that purpose. The River Road is simply far too narrow for there to be a bunch of bikes competing with cars. As for the condition of the paths, the road isn’t exactly perfect itself, so there really wouldn’t be much difference in that. I guess this is a no-win situation for anyone using wheels on the parkway.
When I drive on a two-lane road next to the freeway, I am not blocking anyone else’s progress. Apples and oranges, Dr. G.
There are many things we have the “right” to do, but that doesn’t mean it’s “right” to do them. If you get some kind of rush out of inconveniencing others just because you may, that truly is too bad for you.
“The River Road is simply far too narrow for there to be a bunch of bikes competing with cars.”
Perhaps, if the car drivers using west river road find themselves overly inconvenienced by other legal road users, they should choose an alternate route.
I do ride in the roads on the parkways. I seldom, if ever, have a problem on Minnehaha Parkway or Dean Parkway. But the mentality on West River Road is different. Now, I avoid it altoghether. Which is sad.
As a biker, I prefer trails, and I do use them. But some trails, like the one along WRP, are not a good option because of everything already mentioned. (Have you seen RoadGuy’s snapshot of the condition of the pavement?) So where the trails are no good, I use the roads.
Trust me, I’m not out to be an urban combatant when I’m riding in the roads. I’m just a guy trying to get where I’m going.
I know you may not like it when i get in your way, so I do what I can for you. I try to move over if and when it is safe for you to pass me. I stop at signs and lights. I signal my intentions. I even try to speed up if you’re tailgating me. If you’d like to return the favor, you can be patient and wait for a safe opportunity to pass; don’t try to thread the needle (you must give me at least 3 feet of clearance). You could also try to communicate, e.g., eye contact, a wave, or even a quick toot toot.
And last but not least–remember that I’m really not trying to do anything meanspirited or confrontational by riding my bike–please refrain from yelling, swearing, laying on the horn, swerving into my path, passing too closely, and otherwise being mean. Its bad karma.
We all have a right to the road, and, even if you don’t like it, it is your responsibility to share it with me in a safe and responsible fashion. I’ll do my part if you’ll do yours. Deal?
I agree with Prof. Practical. As a biker and a car driver on that parkway, I have a $4,700 road bicycle that works just fine for me on the bike path. I feel as bad at that path is between 46th and Franklin, since we all paid tax money for the path that is for bicycle specific use, that we should use it whenever possible, or find other paths to ride.
What seems to be the crux of this debate is that while there is a (narrow) road that legally can be shared by bikes and cars, the angst of many drivers, (I included) is the bikes choose to be on the road when a bicycle specific path is 10-25 feet away. Cars cannot choose the “car lane” in this area, and so understandably that is why many drivers get annoyed.
Bikers must understand along with that choice. Just like if you were biking on Lake St. or Franklin Aves, you are taking on increased risk of injury since you are in traffic with automobiles. That is just life in the big city…
Once thing I noticed, is most of the Armstrong wannabe’s also have very nice bikes that are much more expensive than what I have, which means they also very likely have nice cars. If they are recreationally riding, why not take the bike out to one of several paths just outside the city that go on for several counties in length? Or, just ride the greenway which is a brand new smooth trail that goes from the river just past 169?
In the end, until some new laws are enacted, this debate will always continue. To me, it would be nice if they fixed the paths already there and widened them along with enacting a law to make bikes use those paths. I think the road bikers would be fine with having a new path that was a bit wider so they can ride in their Tour de France wanna be groups, and the cars would be happy since they can go 40 mph like they do now without worrying about hitting anyone.
I don’t get a rush from “inconveniencing” people when I ride on the road. But I am also not “blocking anybody’s progress” by riding on the roads, any more than any other vehicle is in the way.
Like it or not, as a biker I have every right to be on the road. That also means that I have the responsibility to follow the rules. I do so, although I understand and share your frustration at those bikers who don’t. But like Pete said, I’m not being mean or being confrontational by biking on the road. I’m simply trying to get where I am going in the manner that I consider best.
Let’s also remember that West River Parkway is a Parkway. People who find it too crowded for commuting should maybe find another route. That road is not meant to be a N-S highway for Minneapolis.
This event started from a community meeting about the ill state of the bike trails along the West River Road in this area in October 2006 (see Roadguy’s previous posts).
After talking with the Park Board about moving repair work up, residents found it was impossible to make this happen, given the rules the Park Board stated about federal TEA 21 funds. The focus then shifted to awareness of rules of the road, especially in an area where there is a bike path, the fact that the road is slower than standard city streets. We have listened to many, many, many concerns, some of which are listed in the comments today, and found that talking about it AND action are a part of the solution.
We provided a plethora of ways to connect with the area, from bike laws to car laws, Share the Road materials, and safety checklists for bicyclists. The idea for the event is to franchise it out the neighborhoods of greater Longfellow…the Share the Road signs and possibly the burma shave signs.
Thanks to all people who have been involved, and who will be involved. I appreciate the conversation that will hopefully lead to a safer, more sustainable city.
I agree with Gonzo, complaining about bikes on the PARKWAY is a bit ridiculous. It’s a PARKWAY, not a highway. I personally don’t think cars have the right to complain about any bicycle that is following the rules. And MNDOT agrees with my opinion. The bicycle wanted to take the parkway and not the bike path, and that is their right. There are valid reasons for doing this. The car also wanted to take the parkway. That is their right. If cars don’t like this, they can get off the parkway.
Rockstar99 says
“Cars cannot choose the “car lane” in this area, and so understandably that is why many drivers get annoyed.”
If the car drivers are in such an all-fired hurry, why are they taking the curving, winding, indirect west river road? Surely there are more direct routes available with higher speed limits and fewer bicyclists.
My guess, those complaining about bikes on the parkway, are probably in a hurry for another McHeartAttack meal while behind the wheel of their Chevy Subdivision.
Do I bike on the Parkway? Nope. I do bike to work on an occasional basis. It’s my personal observation that the impatient types are usually driving some large SUV or minivan. It’s the multitasking parent that I fear on the streets on Minnetonka.
Way back, before all the horribly mean comments started posting, there seemed to be murkiness about giving an audible signal when passing others. I’d say, always warn when people, especially seniors who might get seriously hurt if they were startled and lost their balance.
The murkiness is in how people respond to the signal. According to the law written in the MnDOT, “Share the Road” materials, you SHOULD give an audible signal. How people react is out of your control. If they get upset, it is their duty to deal with their anger, not yours. Eventually, people will get used to it. I experienced the confused people also, with the “on your left” signal, but I always figure they were newbies. I think others think they are getting scolded, especially if the voice sounds angry, so they resent that.
I really recommend the bell to everyone. I have such good responses with my bell. Maybe because it is cheerful sounding and doesn’t have an angry tone to it, like a voice might. Most people in fact, smile. I hear lots of “thank you” from people when I pass them, too. I try to stay upbeat too, (how can you not if you ring a bell?) because I like getting the warning from others. If you like to be streamlined, there are some bells that fit into the ends of the handlebars, that don’t have to attach to the top of the bar.
Good point by to bsimon to my first post…
But in the world we all know that no one does the speed limit. Also, with the light rail line completely making Hiawatha an awful option to the Southern burbs, Crosstown, the Airport, and MOA, many drivers I think use the parkway as an alternative to Hiawatha and 35W anytime between 6:00am and 8:00pm when Hiawatha and 35W are packed.
Doesn’t make it right, but it is reality…..
Like I said, I own a nice road bike and I use the path just fine. I also have an “okay” car, and for my long rides I either pack my bike in the car and go to a regional bike path, or on the weekday evenings ride the greenway back and forth a couple times. I don’t get honked at, sworn at, or brushed because I use the path.
My favorite part is when I pass the Armstrong’s Idolizers while I am on the path - and cars are honking at them in the road. Sorry, but if I was in a car and watch bikes on the path pass bikes in the road, I would be annoyed. I am not perfect, just human….
For those drivers using the excuse that they have to avoid Hiawatha because it’s packed, try riding the LRT!
Frankly, that argument is not based in reality. In fact, so many people are riding it lately, that Hiawatha is no more packed than any other highway in the morning. I encounter many more cars on Hwy 110 in Mendota Heights (which is interrupted by lots of long red lights) than on Hiawatha.
Face it, if traffic is backed up on Hiawatha, it is no doubt backed up everywhere else. Maybe folks should give themselves a few minutes more time.
rockstar99, LRT did NOT make Hiawatha a congested road. Yes, there were problems in the beginning, but those were fixed. I drive the route regularly, so I’m speaking from experience. CARS are causing the congestion, not rail. If you want to relieve congestion, tell the governor to sign a transportation bill!
I own a vintage steel touring bike–probably one of the most comfortable roadies available–and I still find WRP’s trail unbearable.
And while there may be an occasional exception (that I’m not aware of but you are), the bikes in the road are there because they’re faster than those on the trail.
As I said in my first post - WRP was pretty good when it was 3 lanes wide. The greedy park board narrowed the road - just to get money from the feds.
I gotta laugh about the ’share the road signs’ - as I’ve said the road already suffers from sign pollution.
Grow up you Lance Armstrong wannabe’s - use the bike path when there is one. It’s the park board screwing you over, not the drivers.
Maybe it is just the times I travel Hiawatha and 35W but I have lived here for 34 years and they are unbearable compared to before LRT and suburban sprawl.
Hiawatha was awesome once it was repaired a few years ago and before LRT. Yes, it is now better than it was when LRT was first running, but it is not what it was before LRT was there - and the city was given a message that having LRT on the ground would have zero impact on the traffic on Hiawatha. Not a little, zero….
35W is a joke of a freeway and guess what my friends… The parkway, Cedar Ave,. and Hiawatha car traffic is going to increase later this summer when 35 and Crosstown undergoes years of construction.
It isn’t just the drivers trying to get to the Airport or MOA that use the parkways. Many people use the parkway to get to Crosstown, and points much further south than the LRT runs. Take the parkway to 34th or 28th and out south ya go to Iowa..
My thing is….. I am not seeing very much honesty on this board. Again, who of us seriously drives the speed limit? How of us use short cuts that may or may not be logical or practical to get from point A to point B? I love cycling as much as all the Lance Armstrong wanna-be’s. (Heck, I am one since I own and road bike and I am about to drop some serious money on a Seven brand road bike) But, I also think there is a time and place(s) to get in my riding. I actually have no issue with those using roads and bikes as a means to get to and from work. Hats off to ya. But the Lance Armstrong’s are using it for recreational riding and I am all for putting in some money to better the pathways, but would they be used?
On my road bike, as I stated I am pretty fast. I have no issue with the paths on that W River stretch and yes, sometimes I have to say,.”On the left” Or, heaven forbid, I have to slow down to make sure that people know I am there. But it is no biggie to me. For those days when I want speed and “virtual” un-interrupted riding, the greenway works just fine for me.
I may in the minority passing road bikes in the bike path, but being in the minority doesn’t make one incorrect.
I have yet to see one person comment about why the brand new greenway is not an alternative for recreational riding? Again, if they put it to a vote to better the W. River pathways or even better, my dream of expanding and repairing them, I am right there voting for it. Until then, I am not fighting an onslaught of cars for my rides.
My question to those who ride in the parkway is, understanding the path for W. River parkway is a little rough, what about the parkway between Minnehaha and Lake Harriet where I see y’all riding? Is the path awful there too? Should we just get rid of the paths and expand the street? What about the St. Paul side of the river that has a little wider parkway with not only a bike path, but a third bike path in the road? I already know what I will be told, “Too curvy, sometimes tough to ride on, I have to slow down for walkers, etc:”
Again, nothing wrong with transporting a nice bike to a nice area made for biking and having at it instead of this dumb fight with cars on a narrow road.
Plus, I am not sure what everyone sees as so smooth about the road itself on W. River parkway? That is not some brand new road either, so that can’t be all that much better than the paths….
Peace to all… Just everyone be safe and enjoy riding, driving, whatever. This debate will not ever end until like we all dream some funding comes in to expand/repair things and even then, don’t lie to yourselves, if they repaved the pathways and expanded them, there will still be some of you that use the road anyways…
In my experience, the bicyclists who follow the rules on the parkways are the minority. I honestly have no problem with them, and wish there were more of them. My problem is with the “I have every right to be here and you don’t” types who think two human-powered wheels grant them some kind of special status.
I’m curious as to what the reaction would be if the police started enforcing traffic laws against bicycles, the same as they are supposed to against cars. Suppose every bicyclist who ran a stop sign had to worry about a ticket?
“They said residents have been bumped and even knocked over by hit and run offenders. Really sad.”
I read that over a dozen times, cuz I thought I was seeing things. I thought most parkway users were peaceful people. Lemme get this straight, RoadGuy, the bikers swerve to avoid hitting a runner, then bang into a senior citizen and take off??? You’re joking, right?
Anyone, who already has the advantage, that bullies someone in a vulnerable position, really needs psychiatric care, pronto.
Whether it’s wild-eyed SUV-heads that swerve at the bikers, or bikers that think seniors are for crash testing… they all need help.
I think a lot of the problem of bikes using the road instead of the bike path would be solved if they raised the speed limit on the paths. I’m not a very fast biker but 10 mph is way too slow for me.
I am also not good at Typing! Nice typos I had… My friends reading this board are cracking up at me!
Roadguy, you should have a topic about worst work Typos! I have a doozy of a submission for that topic!
I’m curious as to what the reaction would be if the police started enforcing traffic laws against bicycles, the same as they are supposed to against cars. Suppose every bicyclist who ran a stop sign had to worry about a ticket?
As a biker, I would be 100% in favor of this. They should follow the laws, and they should be ticketed if they don’t. I am tired of yelling at bikers myself for not following the law (and trust me, I do, as much as I yell at motorists).
I never run stop signs, stop lights, or otherwise disobey traffic laws. I usually signal (left turns at the very least).
One thing I do take issue with, though, is the term “Lance Armstrong wannabes”. Who cares why people are biking? Is there something wrong with biking just for fun and not commuting? Should we demand that drivers only drive for certain purposes?
To say nothing about the fact that parkways are parks and therefore exist for recreational uses, not for commuting.
Do they even enforce 10mph on the bike paths? Been riding those for decades at 15-20mph and no ticket. And I still don’t take out seniors or babies in strollers, either.
After riding to the Share the Road event, I cannot understand why anyone would want to bike on W River Pkwy. The street is a mess, at least traveling west to east (north to south?). Yes I am on a rigid steel bike so perhaps it is worse for me.
I was passed plenty of times by drivers and I think there are just a few that are unsure of their driving skills because I can feel them hesitating behind me. I don’t blame them because I hesitate before passing a biker because many times they don’t seem to know what they are doing.
I think there needs to be more information given out on how to bike in the road to people purchasing a bike and to future drivers in training classes. If possible, I think it would be great to include it as part of driving instruction.
Today was also the first day in a long time that I can remember a cyclist stopping at a light with me. I wish there was a way to ticket cyclists because I have been put in a lot of dangerous situations because of their actions. These conversations and complaints are endless in nature but I fail to see good ideas on how to actually work out the problems. I wish I had some myself!
Bullies DO need psychiatric care.
Yes Barry, just like motorists, there are all kinds of bikers, runners, and walkers. No one group has a monopoly on rudeness. There are reckless, inconsiderate people everywhere. Although an age was not mentioned, the senior stated the hit and run offender among a “group of young” guys.
Maybe I am not as surprised as you, since I spend my day in a suburban high school. Since the “apple doesn’t fall far from the tree,” I’d say, there are plenty rude parents raising kids.
I’d suggest you stand in a high school during passing time, or maybe the parking lot when school ends. It gives a scary snapshot of where we are heading.
>I think there needs to be more information given out on how to bike in the road to people purchasing a bike and to future drivers in training classes. If possible, I think it would be great to include it as part of driving instruction.
————————-
That’s a great idea Nic. Let’s make it so.
Doctor G; It is *NOT* “perfectly legal to always ride in the road”. The Lemonds love to tout their right to be on the road, conveniently forgetting the next paragragh where it states that it is only legal if they do not affect the flow of traffic on the road (it’s in the laws, read it and deal with it).
That being the law you hold so dear, if a car has to wait for a spot or time to be able to safely pass a bicyclist, the bike is hindering traffic and should not be there.
There are tons of regional trails and parks with long, paved loops around with little or no traffic concerns at all. Hop on the Luce Line trail and you can ride all the way to friggin’ Hutchinson if you want. County road 46 has a nice wide paved shoulder all the way from Rosemount to Hastings, actually an official bike route (and off-road paths continuing all the way to Burnsville). The list goes on and on.
There are countless places for hardcore Lemonds. Why is it so hard for these serious riders to just get out of town and leave the parkway trails to casual riders and narrow roads to cars? I know, because it’s your “right”. Blah, blah, f’n blah.
Morg, um, bicycles are traffic. Likely slower moving traffic than most cars due to the rampant speeding admitted to by more than few motorists commenting here, but traffic nonetheless.
Oh, and a couple more things. Regarding the statement that if cars are in a hurry they should stay off the parkways because they’re parks, the same holds true for the Lemonds. If they want to ride fast, do it in an appropriate place (see previous post).
As for the LRT not affecting Hiawatha traffic, are you nuts? The masterminds at MNDOT decided that some brain dead drivers may pull on to the tracks as they wait to cross/turn on to Hiawatha, so as the train approaches they bring Hiawatha to a halt to let these imbeciles clear the tracks.
The argument that in the name of “culling the herd” maybe these people should be left where they are if they are stupid enough to pull on to the tracks aside, the simple solution, that could be implemented tomorrow were there any common sense at MNDOT, would be to lower the cross arms as the cross traffic lights change to yellow, preventing people from pulling onto the tracks and eliminating the needless stopping of Hiawatha as trains approach. My guess is that would make too much sense.
Morg,
Sometimes the bike has to “be there” because there is no other way. If you are stuck behind one for more than a second or two, and you really feel inconvenienced, call the police. I feel there are greater threats to you on the road than someone bicycling to work, but, you have YOUR rights, too.
Matty, read the rules. It is very black and white. You can’t make up your own realities. It is right there for you to read. I suggest you do.
Barry, I’m all for commuting on bike. There are specific places for that as well. Again, I don’t write the rules, but you guys sure need to read them.
Morg, the point is that a bicycle traveling on a road is not at all impeding traffic, contrary to your opinion. If a bicyclist lies down in the middle of the road and blocks traffic, yes, that is a violation of the law just like if a motorist stopped its car sideways on the freeway in order to impede traffic.
On the other hand if a bicycle is traveling down the road it is not affecting the flow of traffic on the road, rather it is a part of the flow of traffic on the road. This is reality and 100% within the law you cite.
I’ll bet any legal decisions on record would support my non-professional interpretation of this law.
If a car has to slow down/swerve/change lanes to avoid a bike, the bike is obviously hindering/obstructing traffic. I don’t know how you could possibly see it any other way. Yet again, the law is very clear. Just because you say the sky is purple with pink polka dots doesn’t mean it is (well, maybe in your world 
).
Hinder–to prevent from doing.
Obstruct–to get in the way of; to prevent/hinder the progress of.
Here is the actual rule cut and pasted from the state website:
c) Persons riding bicycles upon a roadway or shoulder
shall not ride more than two abreast and shall not impede the
normal and reasonable movement of traffic and, on a laned
roadway, shall ride within a single lane.
So there you have it. I think it is safe to say that having to slow down for a bike is not the normal movement of traffic, but whatever, in your world you’re right and nothing I, or any silly rules manual say is going to change that.
Incidentally, one of my worst memories is attending the (closed casket) funeral of a co-worker of mine who was killed while exercising her right. May none of you suffer her fate.
A car having to slow down and/or change lanes is hardly an example of traffic being hindered. If you want to plow ahead at any speed desired regardless of what kind of vehicle is in your path the law does not protect you, sorry.
That statement defines the problem we’re dealing with here very precisely. The rules are not about the unfettered movement of automobiles; they are about all modes of transportation coexisting in the most efficient manner.
That means bicycles on the streets mixed with other street traffic, including fixed rail mass transit. That is how I can see it any other way and the law agrees with me.
I like Barry’s suggestion.
Morg and others, if you really feel you’re being violated by bicyclists, call the police. Otherwise, you have nothing to complain about.
It’s not bicyclists’ fault that your single-occupancy vehicle is going the way of the dinosaur.
Barry says: has a great point in his post….
I do find it strange that bikers who want the road shared with the cars, use a common excuse that the paths’ are crowded with slower traffic that they would have to avoid. (As someone pointed out to one of my earlier posts that they don’t normally see faster bicycles on the paths’) So, this is a reason the road bikes “must” use the very narrow road right??
Yet, these same bikers who complain about not enough space on the paths’ expect every vehicle to “Use another way” to get where they are going, or to “take their time”, “Plan a few extra minutes, etc;”
But the cyclists won’t “Slow down”, or, accommodate slower bike/walking/jogging traffic etc on the pathways? I believe reading the majority of these posts that is what is being said by the avid cyclists… Ironic isn’t it… :o) Bikes complain about being honked at, sworn at, etc; and the walkers in the Road guys’ story tell the same tales of walking on the bike path with them becoming the bicycle, and the bicycle becoming the car in that scenario….
Again, I have been off this board for a few hours and still… Not one cyclist who uses their bike for recreation has provided any reason to not use the brand new greenway that runs via 28th St south from the river out to 169 (And points west if you have tires good enough for a dirt trail).
The greenway is wide enough that several bikes can ride together so the Tour de France parties can have a fun unimpeded time with little traffic minus crossing some residential streets every so often. Again, if that is not enough, besides the excuse of “I have rights” I haven’t heard anyone say why they can’t occasionally pack-up the bike and go out to a rural area and ride away?
I ride almost nightly from March to November and have 0 issues with not being able to use the parkways as a bike path.. I am not meaning any of this in a mean way but please will another road cyclist tell me why they can only use the parkways when I and many of my friends find much more enjoyment out of a new taxpayer path that the city has built for us to use? Just tonight there I am by the river in South Mpls with friends, and there are bikes in the road.. When surprise, a brand new path is 10-15 feet away.. It all about “me” I guess for some people… I am seeing that a lot on this board.
Again, is the path on W. River parkway nice? No… Is it ride-able on a road bike? I guess that is up to the individual. But if it is not to you… Then, that is it? Take on the car traffic instead of occasionally finding a different path? The Greenway is 11.5 miles (between the river and Hwy 169) of biking bliss. Yes, it goes through some rough neighborhoods, but as many bikers point out, since we are all moving at a good clip, good enough in some opinions to along ride with cars, we should have nothing to worry about in those areas since we are all going so fast…
Looks like the “Share the Road” campaign is not done yet.
I would hate to think of the bloodbath that would occur if Morg, DGB, whatever99, etc. rode down the street in front of our house where neighborhood kids hang out to PLAY in the STREET for hours afterschool every day. And we live within 2 blocks of a park and playground!
Re: RockStar99’s comment: “But in the world we all know that no one does the speed limit.”
How does that make speeding okay or ‘right’? When you exceed the speed limit you are breaking the law. It’s that simple. You’re just lucky that the police have other public safety issues to deal with instead of pulling you over. Speed limits were set to protect the users of the road as well as the neighborhoods that the roads pass through. When you exceed it, you endanger everyone.
That said, the same tired arguments are beginning to wear on me:
The road isn’t wide enough!…
There’s a trail right there, use it you spandex-clad freak!…
But the trail sucks!…
And the road sucks!…
You’re in my way you stupid ped/bike/car!…
I want to go faster!…
Get out of my way!…
Whine, whine, whine…
Sigh. We ALL have places to go and things to do and are just trying to make our way in life. That doesn’t mean we can’t share the same road or the same bike/ped path. It also doesn’t give you the right to judge someone else’s mode of transportation of their choice of route, whether you’re a driver OR a cyclist. If you want to drive the River Road to work every day - so be it. If you want to cycle it - it’s your right, too. But stop hollering at each other about it!
I drive a car that I LOVE. I ride a bike that I love, too. I can see both sides of this issue. But I’m not going to risk the safety of another person on the road - be they in a car or on a bike - just because I want to prove a point or get to work 3 minutes faster. Call me a Pollyanna if you want to. I really try to watch out for others when I’m on the road. Too bad I can’t say the same for others.
The vitriol spewed forth in these postings and on the road is frightening. We all need to stop and take a breath and think about the fact that we’re talking about LIVES of real human beings here.
Oh, and before I go, why do some posters feel the need to question cyclists’ motives? Calling someone a Lance Armstrong or LeMond wannabe is pretty juvenile. People bicycle for many different reasons - because they can’t afford a car, because they love to ride their bikes (it’s fun!), because it’s good exercise, because they want to emit less pollution when they commute to work. It doesn’t matter why. They are doing it because they want to. They should be able to continue to do so without being stereotyped, harrassed, or heckled. Just the same, cyclists shouldn’t stereotype SUV drivers or car commuters.
To further even things out - to those cyclists who choose to flagrantly violate the rules of the road by running stoplights and stop signs and darting into traffic - you should be ashamed of yourselves! You’re setting a bad example and are part of the problem, too!
Bring on the hateful remarks!
Maybe we should develop a multi-billion dollar network of high speed roads that are exclusive to cars and trucks. Surely that would solve all these sharing problems, right?
Oh, wait.
Regardless of mode, everyone here is mad at someone slower than them. If it’s such a problem, find other routes.
High-speed cyclists- Hiawatha is a decent path. Try it. Or do Park/Portland, where the road is wide enough to have your own lane to go as quick as you please.
Motorists- If sharing some parkway space gives you an aneurism, find another road. Life is too short.
I agree with those who say this debate won’t end really no matter what.
I do however have to offer some clarifications on some of my earlier statements.
- Lance Armstrong-Greg LeMond wannabe is not meant as derogatory (atleast when I use it) I even called myself a Armstrong wannabe because I am. I have a road bike, and no I don’t dress up in spandex, but I still love to ride that style of bike. I also like to play football, so I am a Peyton Manning wannabe too… Don’t be so easily offended when someone compares us to the best in the sport people.
- As for speeding and not being “right” to speed eventhough virtually everyone else does. I am pretty sure the person who said that J-walks as we all do which is breaking the law. I am sure none of us on this board go 30mph in a 30mph zone, and also walk to the end of the street when needing to get to the other side of the street. Also, there was a KSTP report on speeding in which they brought a State Trooper on who actually stated that the State Patrol sees slower drivers as a hazard to motorists on roads where the majority of the motorists are going above the speed limit. I don’t go above 30 or 55 because I need to get somewhere a few minutes sooner. I go whatever speed the majority traffic is going so I don’t have my new car rear ended because I am the one car in 50 going the speed limit while everyone else is flying past me. So, no it doesn’t make it right or legal to speed or J-walk but be real people, we all do both for whatever reasons so don’t act all innocent and law-abiding… As I just pointed out, our own State Patrol told us in a news cast for our safety it is better to go with the flow of traffic than to be the one slow vehicle that may be rear-ended. So, if the state patrol is telling us that, what is one to do?
Like I said, this debate won’t stop and unfortunately people will be getting hurt (or even killed as I read in one of the posts) over this issue. That is the true sad part about this whole thing….
I think it’s important to clarify that Morg is misstating the law. Here’s a direct quote from MNDOT’s “Share the Road” website:
“According to Minnesota law, bicycles have the right to operate on all Minnesota streets, roads and highways, except where restricted.
“Bicyclists have all the same rights as all other vehicles. They may operate in a traffic lane, for example, except when a designated bike lane is present. Bicycles are not required to ride on shoulders or sidewalks or even on adjacent bike paths or trails—they are in fact discouraged from doing so (see point 2 below for more on this).
Bicyclists also have all the same responsibilities as drivers of all other vehicles. They must obey all traffic control signs and signals just as if they were driving motor vehicles.”
One of the realities that has not been mentioned is that WRP has a speed limit of 25 MPH. A very small percentage of automobile commuters using WRP are obeying the speed limit. Many are tooling down that narrow road at speeds exceeding 45 MPH. In my firsthand experience, the majority of frustrated drivers on WRP are angry that bicyclists are making it difficult for them to SPEED.
If you haven’t watched Commissioner Vreeland’s comments, I would recommend viewing them. WRP isn’t just another road. It’s a national park, a scenic byway. If a healthy mix of users makes it difficult for drivers to use as an expressway to commute to work, they should find another, more appropriate route.
Hey Morg and the rest of you fat car types - I bike/commute AND I drive a beautiful Suburban. Wanna bet that I don’t memorize license plates of people that are jerks to me when I’m on my bike for the next time I’m driving my 3/4 ton? I’ve even found a few. Pay back is wonderful. I’ve also found that drivers that cut me off aren’t so brave when I pull up to them at the next stop sign.
I bike the parkway 3-4 days a week on my expensive road bike - to and from work - in the summer. I am usually going very close to the speed limit and I take most of the lane so I don’t get cut off. Don’t like it? Tough, its my right. Oh and I pay more state taxes that most of you car driving whiners - you’re using the roads on my dime most likely.
That State trooper had better not be talking about non-highway streets!
Anywhere there is the potential, no matter how remote, that there may be a pedestrian (and that includes drivers walking to and from their cars!), the speed limit DOES matter.
That is so contradictory to what another officer said. At one of our community transportation meetings about WRP and other neighborhood streets, we invited a Mpls police officer (traffic). Someone asked him at what speed is it really unsafe and concidered a ticketable offense. He said ANYTHING over. He said the only SAFE speed that has a greater than 50% of survival is 25 mph. That is why it is the speed limit in all parkways. 30 mph is often the speed limit in non-parkways due to public demand, but is much more hazardous.
Think about it. Why aren’t you supposed drive 30 mph in parking lots?
I know of people who have gotten ticketed for jaywalking. I know someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but I think that is ticketable only if there is are controlled crosswalks on the ends of the block (ie. not in residential areas). However, that is no comparison to speeding. Every mph over the speed limit puts someone’s life on the line, increases injury and fatality rates, reduces reaction time, increases property damage in a crash, etc. The jaywalker is endangering himself and creating an unfair and unexpected obstacle for drivers. The driver would not be ticketed.
I know this, because my daughter was struck by a car jaywalking when she was 7. It was a horrible experience for everyone. The driver, a young mom, was traumatized, but not charged with anything. The driver was going less than 30 mph on St. Clair-my daughter survived. That same week two children were struck on busier streets and died.
JimC,
I hope you don’t come across someone in a car with your same disposition, after you confront them while on your bike for making a dumb move.
Lemme guess, you were the guy last summer at Lake Calhoun who got all up in someone’s face after being cutoff on the bike trail. I witnessed some dumb schmuck & his two kids walk across the bike lane right in front of a guy & his girlfriend/wife. The guy narrowly avoided them & wiped out. Luckily he wasn’t hurt. A few people made comments to the ignorant father about needing to be more aware of his surroundings. These people turned on the biker after he started cussing the guy out & physically threatening him in front of his children. One kid started crying and the other was tearing up. The biker’s girlfriend/wife ended up apologizing for what a Grade A jacka** her boyfriend/husband was.
The reason people run on the bikepath is that the pedestrian paths are stupidly made of concrete, which is more expensive, less durable, and more injurious to joints. Why??
I run about as fast as the speed limit when I’m on the bike-path so will continue to use it.
No Minimike, that wasn’t me. I don’t threaten peds ever since some runner in Wash DC jumped in front of me when I was riding on one of their (much wider) trails and I dislocated his knee when I ran into him. No, I not making that up (and he was from Minnesota!). So I don’t use the overcrowded trails. When I ride, I am typically going 22-24mph, which is why I used the road.
I was making the point that car drivers have a get out of my way mentality because they think they can get away with it. I have found that have a kick **** attitude toward the jerks tends to take their edge off. Sad but true.
Here are some quotes from MN Statutes in reply to the dope that was arguing that since bikes impede traffic on the West River Rd, they are illegally using the Parkway. Read the definition of ‘Traffic’. Kind of hard to impede traffic when you ARE traffic, unless you are basically stopped or driving out in the middle of the lane (and the statute addresses the question of how far out to ride in another section - basically you are to ride as far to the right as practicable- taking into account parked cars and road hazards - of which there are plenty on the Parkway).
Note the next section that says bikes have the same rights and responsibilities as cars except where expressly limited (like how far out in the road to ride and additional rights - like the right to be treated like a pedestrian when in a crosswalk).
Passing should only occur if done by a safe clearance which in Mpls and St. Paul are defined explicitly as 3 feet.
So to summarize: bikes are vehicles and traffic. They have the right to be on the road, including the Parkway. And unless you can pass with at least 3 feet of clearance, you need to wait. Don’t like it? I don’t care. Get off your fat butt and get on a bike.
So that should settle the question of legal rights.
169
Subd. 44. Traffic . ” Traffic ” means pedestrians, ridden or herded animals, vehicles, streetcars,
and other conveyances, either singly or together, while using any highway for purposes of travel.
Subdivision 1. Traffic laws apply. Every person
operating a bicycle shall have all of the rights and duties
applicable to the driver of any other vehicle by this chapter,
except in respect to those provisions in this chapter relating
expressly to bicycle s and in respect to those provisions of this
chapter which by their nature cannot reasonably be applied to
bicycle s.
You run six minute miles? Impressive.
Morg,
You said:
Barry, I’m all for commuting on bike. There are specific places for that as well.
I’m a bike commuter. Where is my specific place?
I find it very interesting that some drivers who would not bat an eyelash if they were slowed down by a garbage truck, construction equipment, or some other motorized vehicle, lose it when they are slowed down the same amount by a bicycle.
Hey, when we run out of gas we’ll all be biking. Some folks are just a little ahead of the curve.
Why are we here on this earth anyway? To speed around in cars, rushing from one event to the next? The river road and the parkway run through a park. Let’s enjoy the small bit of quiet and green that we have in the city. Or should we turn everything into freeways and parking lots?
…Because, Greg, most people don’t think of things like using up the oil supply, or why we’re here…
Most people’s deepest thoughts are “What kinda pizza to order?” and “What’s on TV, tonight?”
When they really wanna get contemplative and philosophical, they might talk about Britney Spears.
Unless you are a 90-year old Rabbi, or a Monk at the Monastery, chances are, your idea of being in harmony with nature is using fat-free mayo on your cheeseburger.
I’ll add two laws to Jim C’s list:
The speed limit on the River Road is 25 miles per hour.
Traffic is required to stop for pedestrians at pedestrian crossings.
I drive, bike and walk on long stretches of both East and West River Road daily. I obey the traffic laws regardless of my mode, but it has become most difficult not to lash out at the cars who think they are entitled to use the parkway as they wish, regardless of its impact on the park. Automobile commuters and the Park Board’s failure to enforce traffic laws have made the parkway nearly intolerable for pedestrians.
If you are not willing to drive the parkway speed limit and accomodate the crossing pedestrians and bicycles that are normal and appropriate parkway traffic, then do not drive on the parkway.
There is one exception to my law abidance. If you find yourself blocked from passing a car going the speed limit because the car moves to the middle of the road each time you try, that’s me. For others who love our recreational spaces and hate the encroachment of auto drivers with a sense of entitlement, I highly recommend this exercise, if only because it’s fun to see the pathetic frustration of the driver behind in your rearview mirror.
One last point. There are so many stop signs on the River road that I have found (when I’m in my truck) that the short time I am ‘delayed’ by the bike is completely offset by the less time I have to wait at the next stop sign. In other words, the traffic in front of you driving 25-30mph and the 5-10 cars+ at each stop sign are the real regulators on how fast you get from one end of the parkway to the next, not the guy on the bike that make you wait 5-10 seconds to get around him.
Anyway, minimizing ‘your’ commute time home in your car is not even in my top 100 concerns when I’m on my bike (or in my car) on the Parkway. It’s a Parkway. In a hurry - get on I94 with the rest of the chimps.
People riding in excess of 10MPH should ride on the roads. It’s also illegal to ride your bike with an I-pod/headphones, so when passing slow bikers with them in, it’s easy to startle someone and cause an accident.
CC, great point about the interstates. I agree, cars get so many more transporation dollars than any other mode of transportation, it’s kind of sad that cars still think bikes don’t belong on the roads.
But to your point, I’m not mad at someone slower than me, I’m annoyed by the arrogance of drivers towards me as a biker. When I bike around my neighborhood in Richfield/Edina, I am constantly bullied by cars. The argument I’ve heard here against bikers is that they do not follow the rules. Well, *I* follow the rules when I’m on my bike and *I* feel cars don’t give me any room/respect when I’m on my bike.
Why are trucks not allowed on the river road?
(They follow the rules of the road too.
Perhaps, its because they slow down traffic! Can the same logic against trucks apply to bikes too?)
“Richfield/Edina, I am constantly bullied by cars”
Last week, I saw a bike rider get bullied by a motorist. The biker looked him in the eye, and stuck his hand under the side of his sweatshirt. The road rager backed down very quickly. I wasn’t sure what to make of it. Did the bike overreact? Was it a bluff, or for real? (Or was he just changing C.D.’s? )
In a weird way, I couldn’t blame him, even though it might have been a dangerous move.
Oh Dear, Dr. Impractical, now think about it please. Why are trucks restricted from other non-park roads?
Even though people know trucks are useful to get their everyday conveniences, you won’t get much support on this one. Heck, I know plenty of people wish trucks weren’t allowed on highways and expressways (see RoadGuy’s post on merging last week).
Lets vote on it!
Referendum time!
Victor Laslo: “This time I know our side will win”.
So PP and VL, park the truck outside the park and walk? You do respect parks for their scenic, natural resources and healthy, peaceful environments don’t you?
I am not a biker, don’t even own a bike anymore. However, I do NOT understand this hostility toward bikers. I actually don’t care if bikers follow every traffic rule. Why are you people not hostile toward those who drive massive vehicles with poor gas mileage? With concerns today about global warming and gas prices, you should be thanking those who bike. Based on the law of supply and demand, they do not contribute to price increases. However, that jacka** on your right driving a Dodge Durango IS WASTING GAS and helping contribute to price increases. Leave the bikers alone, go after the selfish idiots who waste natural resources. And, yes, there may be some people who need these large vehicles, like a family with 6 kids, but that is usually the exception, not the rule.
Parting shot:
Is it too much to ask to restrict the bikes to “the bike paths” for (4) hours a day? This means, the AM & PM rush hours.
They can use the roads for (20) out of (24) hours. By increasing traffic problems, bikes are creating more global
warming! For most people, riding a bike
(20 or more miles) to work is not an option. Yes, we car drivers thank the people who ride bikes. We would thank them even more if they used the bike paths.
Prof Practical:
Better yet, restrict cars from using the
parkways, no cars at all. In Minnehaha park this is done, should be on the parkways too.
And yes, add a downtown vehicle tax to keep cars out of downtown.
That’s right PP, just turn WRP into a freeway for “rush hour” commutes. As soon as I read what you wrote, I thought you’d better be careful what you wish for, because there would be a greater chance the road would be closed to cars, than to bikes. I live so close to WRP that it IS my neighborhood street, yet I’d be happy to give up my right, no privledge, to drive my car on it to make it safer. And I pay extra hefty taxes to live near it.
You’re entirely missing the point. You must SHARE THE ROAD with bikes. On all roads-in all parks-in all neighborhoods-on all streets-at all times-in all situations. Period.
Rockstar99
My favorite part is when I pass the Armstrong’s Idolizers while I am on the path - and cars are honking at them in the road.
I hate Armstrong. Mostly because that is all you uncreative people can come up with.
While I understand the ‘practicality’ of using West River Road to go North/South how do you suggest that bicyclists get North/South? Your suggestion of the greenway is Ludicris.
Also, if you are spending $4700 on a road bike to ride on the path you should go to your bike shop and buy the place. Because you have been fooled my friend.
I have never driven a vehicle, and I never intend to.
My major problem with the drivers on the WRP are the ones that honk at me, and speed past me when I’M exceeding the speed limit.
I bike for my commute, I bike for general transportation in the TC’s and further, and I ride for leisure as well. I obey traffic laws, run red lights rarely (if there’s no traffic and I’ve been sitting a red light that won’t change for me… since I’m not in a 1000-pound hulk of steel and aluminum), signal my turns, and generally wave at folks who wave me past.
You get what you give, and if you’re an asshole, you’ll meet a lot of folks who aren’t, but will sure make you think they are, because they’ll be giving you what you deserve.
Oh, and Lance Armstrong is an asshat.
Go Merckx!
Oh my friends.
First. To superrookie… You do know that quality road cycles can run $10,000 to $15,000 in price right? $4,500 for what is generally considered a top of the line cycle without being some kinda pro is not bad, and lucky for me I have it like that where I can afford a $4,500 bike for enjoyment. And in economics, the price of any commodity is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. I was willing to pay $4,500, so that is what it is worth to me.
My point about the greenway is for recreational riders mainly. In my previous posts, I have said that those who use their bikes for work “Hats off to ya” but for us recreational riders the greenway is just fine no matter what direction it faces.
Again, my thing is for all the $$$ I see these guys spending on bikes and clothing and glasses, etc; and noticing that I never seem to see the road bikes like mine on Lake. St, or on 28th st. I am left to assume that the recreational rider is driving their bike to the parkway, unloading it, and using the parkway.
More power to them too, free country, it’s legal to use the road, blah, blah… Everything else that has been said on this board.
All I was suggesting is instead of all the tension being spewed on this board that a little compromise is made by the recreational riders and they can find an alternate path that is made specifically for bicycle riding. That doesn’t seem ludicrous to me or the friends I ride with?
That would clear up some of the bike traffic on the parkway road, and whoa.. Get ready… Maybe with less bike traffic, there would less tension from the drivers as well? Will it solve everything.. No, since riders on the Greenway love to fly right on through the intersections eventhough there are stop signs posted for us. But atleast they are only flying through a 50 ft. intersection, instead of a pack of them taking up a lane on the parkway for miles and aggravating some guy who is not happy with his life.
In a perfect world, the drivers would be courteous, the bikes would all obey laws and themselves be courteous, etc; but all I see everytime I check this board is that it is littered with “Me, I want, they should, what about going Northeast at a 10 degree angle, etc;”
It’s like everyone is trying to lower some pseudo-hammer on why they are absolutely right, or why someone’s proposal can’t possibly ever work for their situation.
There doesn’t seem to be any effort on diminishing the situation that is only going to get worse as our city, like it or not, becomes larger and larger, and will have more and more traffic on all roads even when gas goes to $5.00 a gallon.
Oh well… Take it easy out there and calm down people. Enjoy life and enjoy riding as best you can wherever you choose to do so… I’m out…
That would clear up some of the bike traffic on the parkway road, and whoa.. Get ready… Maybe with less bike traffic, there would less tension from the drivers as well?-rockstar99
That is ridiculous! Everyone is responsible for own their reactions to how they handle tension. Bikers do not need to change their driving routes to reduce the tension of car drivers. It’s nobody else’s business why they are driving on the parkway.
It’s been a long time for me, but since when has driver education dropped the requirement to be alert and adjust your driving to the speed limit, surroundings, and environment.
The parkway welcomes all users, regardless of destination, motives, or mode of transit. All that is asked is that all users be courteous, obey the rules, and share the road. You decide if you are going to allow yourself to behave badly.
Nobody needs to judge others and assume that their reason for using the parkway is more or less important than anyone else’s. That is exactly where the conflicts begin. Attitude is everything.
Okay, I finally have to chime in on this discussion.. As the name says, I am new-2-town and wow. I must say where is the Minnesota “Nice” at? While I agree with both Dob and Rockermost, For one person to say someone’s idea for some compromise is ridiculous is ironically a ridiculous thing to say. I also agree with the statement that the majority of this board are people who are all about explaining why they are the exception and why someone else, everyone else should make exceptions for their choices, while they make no compromise at all of their own. Looking at the posts on here the last two seemed to make the most sense with the exception that Dob seems to think drivers, h*ll people are not walking around angry in life when in fact watching the news, reading this paper, the world is angry. Look at 1/2 the angry comments on here! Like other posts have stated in a perfect world people would all be courteous and check their own attitudes. But the key is this is and never will be a perfect world so as pointed out before drivers/bikers/people will not be 100% courteous and it is ridiculous to think everyone is going to be that way. Sorry, but like it or not, as a pre-poster put it, a bike does not stand a chance against a car or even a motorcycle. I don’t like that they are mean to bikes on seemingly every street in this area, but like it or not, while I am lying in the hospital, not working, not able to care for my family and maybe getting some money for suing them, and they are living a fully mobile pain free life. Who really is the winner on that one? I have been hit by a car and trust me, I did not feel like the winner of anything or any utopian principal.
