Crime and transportation
Posted on April 24th, 2007 – 6:05 AMBy Roadguy
When debating the merits of driving vs. transit, it’s easy to talk about things like time, money, and convenience. It’s a lot trickier to talk about another issue that can get factored in: crime.
The topic is currently front and center for Metro Transit: in less than six weeks, two bus passengers have been the victims of unrelated murders. (According to today’s Strib, there was only a single homicide on all transit systems nationwide in 2005.) Murders might be rare, but perceptions and fears persist, and there are other kinds of crimes to worry about. From today’s story:
Metro Transit Police Chief Dave Indrehus called the bus attacks “really isolated incidents” and took pains Monday to reassure bus and light-rail riders that they were safe…. Asked about the weekend shooting, most Metro Transit riders on Monday said it scared them but they were not planning to change their riding habits. Some have no choice.
…Nastacia Foster, a University of Minnesota sophomore on the Route 16 bus Monday, called the incident “horrible” but said it didn’t surprise her. “I feel like, when I’m on the bus, anything can happen,” she said.
So Roadguy’s question for today is: How do perceptions of crime affect your daily transportation? Do you hunker down in your bus seat, avoid the bus altogether, or encounter no problems at all? Do you sometimes drive instead of walking or taking the bus because of safety concerns? (Roadguy did that for a bit last year, after a murder happened on a sidewalk that he regularly used at night.) Outside of traffic offenses, have you personally been the victim of a crime while on the bus, on foot, on your bike or driving your car? Can anything be done to address the risks?
Please share your thoughtful comments below.
139 Responses to "Crime and transportation"
People also get shot while in their cars, or are victims of road rage.
I actually feel much safer when on the bus than I do when in a car. The person driving the bus is a trained professional, and there are few things on the road that can seriously damage a bus. But when I am in a car, I feel much more prone to injury from the errors of other drivers.
I personally have never had an issue while taking the bus. Sure, sometimes there are people talking too loudly and that bothers me, but the same thing happens with those overloud stereos in other cars.
I used to ride the bus alone at night (in Duluth), and I never really felt unsafe. Of course, I took precautions - such as sitting as close to the driver as possible, making sure I was aware of my surroundings and other passengers (i.e. no headphones or cellphones), etc.
Unfortunately, here in the metro, I have tried the same tactics but have run into some unpleasant situations. My husband and I took the train from Bloomington to downtown to the State Theater. Walking back to the train after the show, we had to walk through a large group (7-8 guys) of thugs hanging out a a corner. As we were walking up, they loudly said “these two have money.” Fortunately, we walked through them without a problem, but I can’t say that I’m willing to take the train to an evening show downtown again.
I love being able to take the train downtown, but it just doesn’t feel safe to walk around like that at night. I know that the same situation could happen just as easily in the parking ramps, but in all the times I’ve parked downtown for things, I’ve never had the same experience. It’s very frustrating.
Downtown businesses and council members need to hear that. As Minneapolis and St. Paul are working on their comprehensive 10-year plans, with infrastructure to make it more pedestrian AND tourist friendly, they better be realistic about the increasing threat to personal safety.
Unless measures are taken quickly, other improvements will be for naught.
It’s funny, though, that I don’t have the same problems taking the train from the Dome. I don’t know if it’s just because the Dome is RIGHT THERE and there are a lot of transit cops helping out when the games get out??
You have a walk a few blocks to get to the train from the Target Center and the theaters. Maybe with the new Twins Stadium, there will be a better presence of transit cops in the area.
I don’t know why they didn’t have better security the night I’m talking about… Our show got out about the same time as the Wolves’ game at the Target Center and just a few minutes after a majority of the crowd from the Twins game had left.
I’ve never had a problem, but I take an express bus that picks up a lot of working-class from the southern suburbs. I’ve never felt unsafe in that respect.
However, I take the 4 bus home sometimes if there’s a happy hour after work. I try to take it no later than 9 p.m., because honestly, I do feel a bit apprehensive. I’m a younger female, which leaves me open to harassment of some sort. I’m not worried that something terribly bad would happen to me, but I just hate being bothered. If I do take the 4 bus home at night, I also, like Heather, make sure to sit towards the front with out headphones and mind my own business. I’ve often thought of having just the earbuds in my ears without anything attached, just to be sure I’m aware of my surroundings, but also avoid the potential of being talked to.
When I used to take the train, the only annoying thing was having to deal with younger teens going to MOA at night, yelling and talking loudly to each other, smacking their gum, screaming on their cells… very rude! I also took the train home at night once, around 8-ish. There was barely anyone on there, but each person kept to themselves. I was ‘bothered’ a few times by two different (and very nappy) guys clearly wanting my number, but to avoid them, I’d try to take the 5 minute earlier train home. So silly!
So all in all, I think all this attention given to bus incidents is going to scare people more than it should. Typical media… stories are only reported frequently when they’re ‘popular’ at the time. A prime example is the dog attacks… a truly gruesome attack happened, and now every little dog bite becomes a front-page story. I digress…
I think we need a good crackdown on rude and unruly behavior. Commuting by bus to downtown St. Paul, I see bus stop behavior that ranges from littering to domestic disputes to brazen illegal drug use. Things are much better onboard the bus during commuting hours, and generally offpeak as well.
Let’s clean up the streets and enforce a standard of acceptable behavior.
I ride the bus because I don’t own a car. And because I don’t feel particularly safe walking in my neighborhood at night, I don’t often roam around much after dark unless I’m meeting someone or getting picked up in a car. The main bus stop I patronize is about five blocks away from me, but the distance between it and my domicile has been the source of some robberies in the past, and replete with nooks and crannies in which perpetrators could lie in wait for their next victim. While I wouldn’t say I live in fear, it also isn’t worth it to me personally to gallivant around town just so I can “take the streets back”, so to speak. So I’d drive if I could, but that’s not an option right now.
My sense of safety changes depending on the bus route I take. On certain routes, I make sure the headphones are on and my nose is stuck in a book. No headphones and no reading material is basically an invitation for unwanted attention one way or the other, so I take the initiative to create my own little cocoon. And some routes just make me so damned uncomfortable I can’t wait to get off of them and at my particular stop, but I avoid those routes whenever possible.
To put all this into perspective, no, this isn’t borne of media overhype or a naivete about my metropolitan area. I get the crime reports for my neighborhood from the MPD on a regular basis and study the crime maps disseminated monthly by my CPO. I have a master’s degree in criminal justice from a leading institution in New York City where I lived for two years, so metro areas are not new to me, nor are perceptions of crime and safety. Yet I will continue to attest that I felt safer on public transport there (bus and subway) and walking on Manhattan streets than I do here. The sprawl is an issue here, with the bus systems connecting more areas than ever before — which is good and bad depending on how you look at it. For example, the Uptown Transit Station’s overhaul linking dozens more bus routes to the Uptown area would be fascinating fodder for a study of environmental criminology and crime patterns. More attention is paid to public transport there because more people use it there than car traffic. Here, it feels like pedestrian traffic is a complete afterthought; maybe if one of our fine state legislators made a habit of walking around the Block E area late on a Saturday night by themselves, they’d understand what ordinary citizens have to deal with just to get where they’re going. I imagine the female legislators would find this all the more eye-opening.
Frankly, I don’t really understand it. I’ve tried for the past two years to make sense of why Minneapolis feels so unsafe to me whereas Manhattan and Queens did not; a big part of the reason is likely the volume of foot traffic on the streets at any given time. Deserted streets make for scary possibilities, either imagined or real. And when Minneapolis tries to generate foot traffic by putting in things like Block E, you have the reverse-desired effect of generating a lot of negative-element foot traffic that discourages all other foot traffic from approaching the area — except by car, as in Heather’s case.
I look forward to hearing some bright ideas on this, because I’m plumb out.
I’m also all for a crackdown on the terrible behaviour I’ve seen and heard about on the bus system — which will naturally spill over into the lightrail soon enough, though it sounds like it may have started already. It doesn’t help when individuals who try to crack down on this behaviour themselves end up shot or beaten up for their efforts. If we’re not able to stand up singly and feel safe doing so, there has to be a collective action in place.
It really is all about perception (and personal experience).
I grew up in a suburb, and certainly not a rich one at that. My mom got it in my head when I was a kid (whether it was true or not) that the bus line is a scary place and don’t ride buses because stuff happens to every one who rides them.
I haven’t been able to get over it. I took the bus once with my aunt who rode it every day to work, and she more or less agreed with my mother.
I still am afraid of public transportation–I am scared of the “stereotyped” demographic that takes the bus lines; I am scared of the neighborhoods that the buses run through.
However, to make my point about “perception:” I will ride my bike in south Minneapolis (28th, 29th, Lake) through dusk and not think anything of it.
Even more, my friend and I were in Chicago and took the subway from downtown out to the airport at 11pm with a $1000 digital SLR camera around his neck in plain view. I wasn’t scared a bit until I got home and told someone about it who grew up in that area and she said she would never have done something so stupid. 
I often commute via bus and have never experienced a problem - however, the morning and evening rush hour times are probably not the dangerous ones. My few nighttime rides have been uneventful, too. The bus drivers seem ready to speak up and ready to call the authorities if needed, and I trust that. But I do tend to drive at night rather than take the bus, and part of the reason is that I don’t like standing at the bus stop at night.
In response to Heather’s post, I think that the situation she describes is not really related to transit in particular, but to downtown in general, because as she said, this incident could certainly have occurred as she was walking to a parking ramp (I suspect that your chances of getting mugged in a parking ramp are probably greater than your chances of getting mugged at a bus stop). But the packs of loud teenagers are problematic. They can definitely be intimidating, and I absolutely agree that they have a negative impact on the city.
My conclusion is pretty simple - if there’s crime in the city, there will be crime on the bus and at the bus stops, which are a greater concern for me, since on the bus at least there’s a driver to call the cops. One solution might be to increase security presence on the buses and especially on the bus/train stops, but that takes funding.
I moved to Minneapolis from New York City in 2002, and like Vicki, I felt safer on the subways and streets of New York than I did in MPLS.
One major difference that I noticed right away is that people here are much more likely to “get in your face” than they are in NY. In NY, I could ride the subway to wherever I needed to be, without anyone approaching me and demanding fifty cents, which happened frequently on the Twin cities buses. I think a lot of that has to do with people’s demeanor. Ordinary people (riding public transit) here seem to be more fearful.
New York also has a much stronger police presence within the public transit system. I used to ride from Upper Manhattan to Brooklyn several times per week, and could nearly always
count on seeing uniformed police in the stations, and in the cars.
I ride the bus several times a day, at all hours, all over the TC, always by myself, and have for several years. As a female, fresh college grad, that occasionally means I get approached by unwanted (but totally harmless) guys, mostly late at night when people are just bored. I can always politely direct them to move on, and have found no need for headphones and burying my head in a book. My conclusion is that 99.5 percent of people are just going about their own business, even if they are wearing thuggish clothes, or being loud, it has nothing to do with you. So I suggest that the folks who are afraid of groups, or of being spoken to, should work on what I call “public social skills” and stop hiding from other people. If I recall correctly, the two people that died were familiar with their shooter. They were not anonymous travelers.
I rode the bus daily during two years of graduate school and then a further 2 years while working on the East Bank at the University. In that time I made a lot of trips on the 16 and the 50. I never experienced any threatening behavior from passengers, but I saw a few situations nearly escalate into something. And there were plenty of times when I saw more timid folks move or even get off the bus due to intimidation by a group of loud guys in the back.
While bus drivers are surely trained to deal with all sorts of things that *might* happen on the bus, I don’t think they are generally very well equipped in reality. I’ve seen a driver pull the bus over and call the transit police to resolve a situation. If you get a passenger who is particularly aggressive though, and has a weapon….yipes.
Last summer a friend and I took the bus to the first Twins playoff game at the Dome. The trip back coincided with rush hour, so the buses were packed. We got on an articulated 16 bus, and took seats near the rear door (keep in mind this is quite a distance from the driver on an articulated bus). An extremely surly young man in front of us was bumped VERY slightly by a college kid and his girlfriend on their way down the aisle. This really set him off like nothing I’ve ever seen, and he spent the entire trip–through the traffic jams on Washington, across 35W, left from Cedar onto the Washington bridge to the U–hurling profanity-laced verbal abuse at the poor kid and his girlfriend, threatening them with physical harm if they so much as looked at him. My friend and I were at the ready if it came to needing to subdue him. I don’t think the driver heard any of what was going on until more people had gotten off the bus…and by that time the ashen-faced college kid and his girlfriend had gotten off the bus before their intended stop just to escape this guy’s harassment.
Stuff like that is a real shame. People bump you on the bus, that’s just a fact. This punk barely got touched, it happened 8 inches in front of me. And yet it almost turned into an altercation because he’s gotta project some tough guy image I guess. I wouldn’t doubt that there were a couple people who witnessed that who haven’t ridden the bus since.
Actually Danielle, one of the people who was recently shot and killed on a bus was a man who was asking a group of young men to quiet down (with whom he was not familiar). Based on his actions, I doubt that he was an overly fearful or timid person. Unfortunately for him, he believed that he was talking to the 99.5% of people who are just going about their business, when he was not.
In all honesty, your comment that people just need to work on their social skills is naive and insulting.
I would like to see that jackass on the articulated 16 try that sort of behaviour on the inbound 7 from Queens to Manhattan on any given morning during rush hour — a.k.a. “The Sardine Can”. He’d be bumped from all sides whether he liked it or not, and most people of any measure just learn to accept the fact that to live in this world means you may come into contact with another individual’s “personal space” but it doesn’t automatically mean they’re disrespecting you.
Maybe it’s the heightened state of awareness most New Yorkers exist in on a regular basis that doesn’t happen here, but I never saw anybody try to pull that sort of behaviour there — in the streets, on the transport, anywhere. I don’t understand what’s different about punks in the Twin Cities that makes them feel so entitled to kidgloves and genuflection.
I’m a terrible driver so I gave it up years ago and rely on metro transit to move about. During the course of my work week I ride the 18, 515, LRT, 2, 21, 5, and sometimes the 17 bus and have encountered situations on all of these routes. One day while riding the 515 there was a domestic violence situation occurring on the bus and the driver completely ignored the situation. When I finally said something to the couple I was verbally abused and threatened me…no one, not even the driver did a thing. The 5 is a constant nightmare with loud, rude behavior and the other routes are really not much better. I’m afraid that the more we openly talk about our fear of riding the bus and speaking up for peace and quiet the more power the bad apples get. I could think of many initiatives to help curb the downslide but who would facilitate them? where would the funding come from? Standard school operating hours, better school bus system, required responsible citizenship courses, more opportunities for teens to obtain part time employment and engage in productive activities, better supervision on the buses, converting all fares to a to-go pass account that can be noted with “non-eligible for ridership due to repeated unruliness on transit”. All the suggestions, research, etc. in the world won’t solve the problem if there is no action taken and despite our exceptionally high taxes on every freakin thing here in Minnesota…”there just isn’t room in the budget”. But how much isn’t it costing to “fix” the cross-town…enough already.
Reading about the death of David Halberstam, who survived as a war correspondent only to die in a car wreck, made me think how safe I feel riding the bus instead of driving a car. The more I depend on transit, the more I realize what an enormous risk I take whenever I get behind the wheel. Especially in this town, where people run red lights and stop signs with abandon. I have never felt unsafe on a bus, despite the loud conversations that always seem to happen on the 18 local about criminal records, probation officers, etc.
I wish I would have sent my letter to the mayor long ago about this issue when I decided I would no longer deal with the number 5 bus and other ghetto buses due to what I have seen and my personal experience with riding them. Yep, that’s right ghetto and I use that term because that is where I live and what I deal with day in and day out. People in the suburbs have no right to comment on this issue or people who ride bus lines that go through Uptown and Edina. You gain that right when you start riding routes like the 5 or actually spend time living in north mpls or other problem areas. This city is losing control of its infrastructure very quickly. I have a bus that runs all night and I really don’t need a car but have one and use one because I live in a ghetto and the bus is not safe at all. Period. There is a distinct shift going on with regard to “territory” and that kind of garbage and it has started to move along the lines of ethnicity as well. The driver and cameras are of no use. Come on, cameras? Who cares. That’s after the fact and does the victim no good. Where are the undercover cops on the buses? Why isn’t this trash being busted for anything and everything so a zero tolerance message is being sent? Why aren’t there cameras at every major boarding point along problem lines so the world can see the drug deals and conflict and all the crap that goes on which the rest of us see while we stand there waiting for the bus? This metro is big and has big city problems. Unless the mayor, council, and residents of the city – and not the suburbs since this has nothing to do with suburbanites who have no idea what it’s like unless they live it - want another Detroit or New Orleans on their hands something better be done real quick like to regain control over our basic infrastructure and the downtown area. Oh and by the way I am a flaming, tax paying liberal saying all of this.
Well said Elsa, I agree.
I, too, find the comment that we who are afraid should work on their “social skills.” When a young couple walks into a group of 7-8 guys who intentionally try to intimidate you, shouldn’t you be afraid? Yes, we made an effort NOT to acknowledge them and just pretend we didn’t hear the comments and fortunately, that worked for us to get us safely through the group. However, what if ignoring them DIDN’T work?
Having lived on my own without a car for 10 years, I have some pretty good street-smarts. That doesn’t mean I don’t have a right to feel fear or intimidation by a group acting like thugs. (I fear for what may have happened had I been alone. My husband is not the scariest looking guy, but at least he was with me.)
I often have put on headphones (with nothing playing) just to avoid having to talk to certain people on the bus.
This is expensive, so I’m sure that’s why we don’t have it, but what about putting undercover cops on the “problem routes” - kind of like the Air Marshalls?
I am a fairly constant rider of the 4, 6, 17, 84, and other buses, as well as the train. While I’ve had to put up with some annoying situations of loud arguments and general impolite behavior, nothing on those routes can really compare to what happens on route 5. A friend of mine, only a week or so before the shooting on the 5, was in a disturbingly similar situation. According to her, a man who was keeping to himself had some sort of medical condition that caused people on the bus to notice him, at which point the entire back of the bus started verbally harassing him. Ruthlessly. After 5-10 minutes of this constant yelling and insulting, my friend decided she’d had enough and politely asked that they leave the man alone. At this point, they all turned on her, verbally harassing her for the rest of the ride. A week later, this seems to be almost exactly what happened when that innocent man was shot. Scary. But it seems that even if nothing is done with most MetroTransit routes (which are 99.9% safe), something NEEDS to be done on the 5.
Well said Wade. Taking the bus from Burnsville and taking it in the city are two totally different things. What a surprise that your bus trip from Plymouth seems safe. That is not riding the bus that is participating in a large car pool. Try riding the bus down Lake Street at night. Get on the bus and sit on a seat someone just urinated on. Sit by yourself and wait for some lonely weirdo to sit next to you and start rocking and mumbling. The low pants wearing trash that cause all the issues downtown dont actually live there people. And they certainly are not capable of actually purchasing a car. These societal scumbags take the bus. The bus is their car. These walking trash bags dont have jobs. They get on and threaten and harrass people who do take the bus for work. These same idiots you hear about committing crimes ride around on the bus. Thats what they do. I invite all you suburb living, big carpool riding fools to actually ride a real bus and then get back to me. Fools.
My husband and I have shared one car for a year and a half. I commute to and from work daily on the bus and also use it occasionally on the weekends. I primarily use routes 3 and 68. There is a marked difference in the relative cheerfulness of people on the 3 than the 68, but I have encountered no problems beyond being hit on a number of times and viewing someone drinking alcohol and talking to themselves. My bus drivers are helpful, wait occasionally when I am running late or they are early, and watch out for me in general. I have witnessed drivers being treated rudely or cursed at, which frustrates me, but, unfortunately is no different than most jobs. I was cursed at during my time working at a restaurant in high school.
I will be starting graduate school this fall at the U of M. I work in a U of M building on the West Bank, and will have classes on the East Bank. I hope to continue to use the bus system, but will consider a change if I have night classes. The problem occurs when I take the 3 to downtown St. Paul and have to catch the 68 to my home in South St. Paul. After 7:00 pm the 68 only comes each hour and the streets of downtown are deserted unless there is a hockey game. I don’t feel unsafe when there are others waiting for the bus, but I don’t like waiting at 6th and Robert all by myself. I understand that it may not be cost effective to have more buses, but I am lucky enough to have options. Folks who own no car have no option.
The 2005 statistic of one homicide on transit in the entire United States is very interesting. When I stop to consider, I know that I am statistically much more likely to die while in a car, but am more likely to feel uncomfortable (personal space, cursing, inappropriate comments) on a bus. I’ll take the occasional discomfort. Transit works better for my pocketbook and the environment. However, I will say again that I have options. Many of my fellow riders do not and the inappropriate behavior on some routes is troubling. Mad Dads and more transit police on certain routes to prevent incidents seems smarter than dealing with injuries after the fact.
I don’t take the bus much anymore, but I used to take the 16 fairly regularly. Nonetheless, this has been a fascinating thread to read.
Undercover cops on buses are all well and good, but let’s be honest, most of what we’re talking about here (fear and intimidation) is generally not illegal, just mean and inconsiderate. So do we really expect cops to get involved? If they started telling people to curtail non-illegal (though irritating) behavior, it’d probably be all of a week before somebody would sue them for racial profiling and harassment.
Honestly I don’t think “bus marshals” would make a dent in the behavior even if we had cops on the majority of the buses, which obviously won’t ever happen.
And finally, I concur that I never felt intimidated in Manhattan, including on the subway the way I do here, and I’ve lived here all my life. I think it comes down to more people and more willingness in NYC to fight back, here we’re much more passive, which leads to tolerance of bad behavior.
I agree with wade s on a lot of points here. If you live in the burbs and are at least smart enough to take the bus to commute, you’re not being threatened because some teenagers are yapping too loud or they’re chewing gum or talking smack. That’s not crime. You being inconveineced is not a crime, get that through your heads.
Act like a victim, be a victim.
I ride the bus everyday. I ride alone at all times of the day and night. People do not bother me. I am very, very rarely scared.
Here’s the deal. All those people everyone is afraid of, who are harrassing them and intimidating them, don’t do that to me. Why? I don’t play the victim. They see you are afraid and they play off it. It is pretty funny to them.
I hate this stuff. “I was on a bus once and this happened or that happened.” And you tell everyone one you know. That keeps everyone off the bus. That keeps funding down and hurts our transit system. But of course, the suburban tourists (and urban perpetual victims) keep spreading their tales because they don’t care.
I used to ride the 3 from St Paul to my apartment near the State Fair. (We’ve since moved to be closer to my new job.) And I was a frequent rider of the 16 from DT St Paul to DT Mpls.
Anyway, even those two trips could be an experience at times. I’ve never witnessed anything as bad was what we’ve heard on here about the 5, but I completely believe it.
The lack of respect people have is just terrible. Just having to listen to the F word multiple times per sentence is tough to deal with. I’m not sure if the drivers are afraid to cause an issue or if they are just too busy driving (I hope) to pay close attention to what’s happening on the bus itself.
As an aside… It’s funny, we complain about distracted driving, and then want the bus drivers to monitor and react to the behavior of the passengers… All the more reason to find a way to finance an “air marshall” type assistance on the buses.
I have taken the bus from Plymouth to downtown. Everyone on the bus is civil. No one really even talks to each other. It is quiet and quick. When I first started in my career I needed to ride the bus through the scum. The scum got on and everyone on the bus knew that the scum was on. My dog is better behaved. Maybe what is needed is a mother and father that can teach these uneducated animals how to act in public. In which third world country is it ok to walk down the bus aisle knocking hats off of everyone (including very old men and women). How is that funny? Everyone on the bus knows that if you turn brave and say something, you will probably end up with a bullet in your head. If these animals cant act civil dont let them ride.
As another liberal who used to ride the #22, #5, and #17 buses, I have to concur with Wade S.
I moved out of Minneapolis a few years ago, and now take an express bus that runs to Lake Minnetonka. There’s no comparison.
The transit situation is part of a much larger problem. We now have a large number of young people in the inner city who were “raised” (if you can call it that) by clueless parents and guardians.
I’m pro-choice, but believe it cuts both ways. If you’re incapable of raising children, don’t have ‘em!
Kassie, you are a fool. Go pretend the sky is purple on some other planet. Youre worse than a victim. At least the victims know they are victims
“Undercover cops on buses are all well and good, but let’s be honest, most of what we’re talking about here (fear and intimidation) is generally not illegal, just mean and inconsiderate.”
Actually, profanity and acting unruly on buses is a violation of the rules of the bus (just like no steroes, no drinking, etc), so having someone of authority there to remove those passengers would be helpful.
Kassie - I’m very happy that you haven’t had a problem yet. But don’t assume that you’re 10 feet tall and bulletproof just because you don’t “act like a victim”. I’ve dealt with any number of teens who thrive on picking on ANY type of person they deem the type to pick on that day. Whether it be people who ignore them or people who engage them. Some of them see the “ignoring” types as an interesting challenge.
The buses are only the begining of the problem. This whole problem goes back to having thugs riding the bus and having no value to a human life. Why are 16 year olds out at midnight? Why can’t we have police posted all the time on the worst route’s? We need to get a hold of the crime in Mpls and St. Paul or it isn’t going to be safe after dark for law abiding citizens. The bus drivers are so afraid that they are going to be shot that they won’t say anything. Minnesota wastes so much money on stupid stuff but can’t spend money to keep people safe. Times are changing and it’s time to spend money on hiring more police.
Hey Nerd.
The studies prove that if you place those on welfare on birthcontrol, the problems decrease.
Kassie and Danielle sound like they would be fast friends…good grief, what arrogance.
It’s common knowledge and a fact that certain metro transit routes are anything but safe. A large number of the routes are fairly safe. A bus rider needs to be cognisant of the routes they are riding and the time of day they are riding them. That said, a close friend of mine was recently mugged while standing at a bus stop in South Minneapolis at 10:00 on a Saturday morning. How about that for safety? I’m quite thankful that the only route I regularly ride is an express from a park-and-ride in the suburbs to dwntwn Mpls. and then back home. I ride by choice, because of the convenience, economical, and ecological reasons. I don’t have a problem riding other routes from time to time if need be, but I can tell you that once it starts to get dark out, I start looking for the fastest way to get to wherever it is I’m going. The further into the evening (or morning in this most recent case) you are on the bus, the more you see the gang-banging societal trash start creeping out of the woodwork and the more dangerous public transit becomes.
Uh Uh…that type of discrimination should not be tolerated either Bus Hating Dude, shame on you for making such a negative generalization.
Honestly, the only thing that will put a stop to the bad behavior is a fear of serious consequences. Getting asked to leave the bus is not a serious consequence when you have nowhere to be in the first place. Even getting taken to jail for a night probably isn’t a serious consequence to most of the perpetrators.
Realistically the only way it will stop is if the demographics change, or if there is a vigilante movement (i.e. getting dragged off the bus and beaten), and for better or for worse, we know neither of these are going to happen.
It all comes down to the dominant demographic. The reason it doesn’t happen in NYC is because people of all walks of life rely on public transit on most of the lines, so the demographics are different, and the social tolerance for the behavior reflects it. The reason we don’t have this behavior on airlines is because these people can’t afford to fly. But it sure happens on intercity buses.
Think of it this way: Would these thugs be willing to be disruptive if they were on a morning commuter bus from Plymouth? Probably not, the demographics on the bus wouldn’t tolerate it. They do it in the city because its their domain, and their standard of behavior governs.
I ride the bus all over the place at all hours of the night. I never ever get harassed. I think you people are totally over reacting.Just ignore them. Come on people what are so afraid of? Did I mention that I ride the bus from Minnetonka to Edina than over to PLymouth and back?
Well said Joe.
I can relate to some of the comments so far. On my last trip to Chicago, I purchased a metropass and relied solely on mass transit to get around. It was great! Clean, timely, and easy to understand. The big difference is that it is abundantly clear that Chicago authorities will not tolerate and crime related to their mass transit system. IIRC, there are enhancements to the base charges (disturbing the peace, disorderly conduct, etc.) that the city WILL prosecute you for if you are, as Uptown Dan so eloquently downplayed, “yapping too loud or they’re chewing gum or talking smack.” Makes you wonder why the Uptown area is dying and complaining about the loss of businesses. Punks are punks and rather that denigrating somebody for not accepting poor behavior because Spike Moss and the usual suspects will be protesting at city hall about “profiling” – try taking a stand on strict enforcement. If you want people to support mass transit, you have to make it a viable option for people to use. You can start by cleaning it up and let it be known that it is not a “right”, but a privilege. I know that flies in the face of liberal apologists who will readily attack decent, law abiding citizens, because they feel unsafe on mass transit – but will gladly pick up the picket signs to protest the unfair stereotyping of your typical “disenfranchised” piece of crap that just happens to feel they have been “unfairly” targeted. The privilege of having access to mass transit is simply to behave. If they are unable or unwilling to do that – walk or stay where you are. Or more likely – steal a car.
I rode the London Underground to work 5 days a week for almost 6 months back in 1988. Other than a very occasional worry about an unattended bag by a train door (bomb threats were very real but pretty rare 20 years ago there) I always felt safe on London Transport, or really anywhere in most of London (just a few neighborhoods excepted - such as Brixton).
One night I was terribly lost in an industrial area SW of Kensington, quite late, and getting a bit worried. I spotted two police women walking the beat, in the mini-skirt uniform of the day, and notably without side-arms. They were helpful and calm, and I made my way home.
The near total lack of handguns in England was the main reason I felt so safe over there. I knew one person who got stabbed in a mugging (and recovered) but otherwise, personal safety was a non-issue for me.
The thought of a 16 year old popping into a bus, squeezing off fatal rounds into a passenger, and stepping off again should still be mostly unimaginable in London (though, sadly, the bomb threats did become real last year).
Up until last week I rode the 87, 16/50 and 21 on a daily basis. Commuting during the day was never an issue (even though I felt much more threatened by the pervy driver on the 87 than any of the passengers). However, I do feel uncomfortable taking the 21 from Uptown to St Paul at night. I’ve personally never felt uncomfortable enough to the point of driving my car, but after my friend was assaulted by some unknown teenagers after getting off the bus in South Minneapolis, I’ve been MUCH more nervous/cautious.
That said, my favorite bus moment is when the entire back of the 50 educated a loud-mouthed teenager about how credit scores and credit reports work. We all learned something that day!
My partner and I are former regular Route Five riders. Now, we use the bus as little as possible.
Those who think there are no problems with transit: I challenge you to take the #5 bus at any time of day. Your chances are close to 4 out of 5 that your ride will be disrupted in some way by rude, disgusting, illegal, or violent behavior.
Even when we rode regularly to and from work, we’d never ever take the bus after 7 pm. Not worth the risk. Now, with murders happening and the transit officials saying “there is nothing to worry about”, I am even more determined to avoid the bus.
“That said, my favorite bus moment is when the entire back of the 50 educated a loud-mouthed teenager about how credit scores and credit reports work. We all learned something that day! ”
I’m sorry I missed that one… That would have been entertaining, to say the least!!
Melissa, that is exactly the point I am trying to make. Joe G says we need to install serious consequences for these animals. Honestly, if prison for life isnt serious enough, what is? Doesnt the fact that some bozo would openly shoot someone, witnesses all over the place, camera rolling say something about the people we are referring to? Clearly something drastic has to happen. My cousin is 22 years old. She has 6 kids. She has never worked a day in her life. The kids are from all different “baby daddys” Her 7 year old told me to “F” myself when I told him no. I asked where he learned that and he said “Mommy’s friends”. Welfare supports my cousin. Birth control isnt even a factor with her. She doesnt care. One of her daddys is in prison for murder. I think she should be sterilized. Birth control is a simple answer. The problem is that people like you are too afraid to say it. Some how it is politically incorrect to say it out loud. My cousin’s kids are going to grow up to be killers.
I don’t want this to veer into a discussion about gun control, but there is a relevant point to be made. Regardless of if you are for or against the right to own a handgun, you have to concede the gun control laws to nothing when a healthy black market exists, and it will continue to exist unless penalties for owning/using an illegal gun become severe enough to deter it (even for first offenses).
The rub: creating serious consequences means more enforcement to catch them and locking more people up for much longer, all of which costs more money, which means higher taxes. And we as a society have apparently said we’re willing to tolerate the black market in exchange for lower taxes. After all, gun violence is always someone else’s problem, until you get shot at on a bus that is…
After reading my own comment above, I feel I should also point out that in my own personal experience riding some “not so good” routes (save for the 5, which I try to avoid), the trips are 9 times out of 10 completely uneventful. Hell, 19 times out of 20, really. And even thoes “events” that do happen 5% of the time are more annoying than anything… nothing scary.
While there is of course some PR spin involved, MetroTransit’s assertion that the recent violence on buses is (to paraphrase) “A series of very isolated incidents” is actually quite true. The buses are, for the most part, very safe and worry-free. I agree with Kassie’s point of not spreading Bad Bus Stories and scaring people away from public transit. But at the same time, when problems do arise (gangs on the 5, drunks on the 10, etc.), steps certainly do need to be taken to keep the innocent riders safe.
And if I may bring up one final thought: These problems really come more from “the streets” than from anything MetroTransit is or isn’t doing. Perhaps what goes on on the bus should be seen more as a microscope on what goes on in our society as a whole, especially in the inner-city “ghetto.” While MetroTransit surely should take steps to keep their riders safe, something too should be done to put a stop to generations of kids being raised in a cutlure of disrespect and violence. And that’s a much bigger issue than transit safety.
Here here, Steve.
I have felt uncomfortable in certain situations while riding the 5. But it isn’t all the time, and most people on the bus are polite and often friendly.
It’s not that the occasional immature behavior is illegal, it is that riders who might otherwise stand up to the merely bothersome and rude behaviors, are afraid of the situation escalating to something illegal (assault) even if they respectfully intervene.
If I felt someone in a position of authority (or even my fellow riders) might be there to back me up, then I might be more willing to stand up for common coutesy when I am offended by the language and behaviors I witness while riding the bus.
I completely agree with JoeG. I’ve remarked many times that the reason NYC public transit feels safer to me (and it does) is that it has a wide variety of people using it.
On the Route Five bus, law-abiding citizens just trying to get to work seem to be in the minority on many runs. The bus is often filled with people who seem to have nowhere to be (or they’re yapping so loud that I know they are going to an appointment with their parole officer or similar) and nothing constructive to do. They’re bored and looking for a target. Or, in the hot months, they’re looking for air conditioning.
I agree that a stronger message of intolerance of these behaviors will send a message that gets through. Wasn’t there a campaign in the recent past to crack down on public urination? I’ve seen that on the #5 bus too. If its not OK on the gutter, it shouldn’t be OK on public transit.
I think if a few people in power in the Twin Cities rode for awhile on the #5 (riding just as a “regular person” without a media entourage or any sort of escort), they’d learn quickly that the conditions are close to intolerable.
I definitely agree, Steve. We do need to do more about society in general - which would “cure” the issues on the bus.
Having worked in an “inner city” school, I am amazed at the lack of respect the kids have. And it comes from the parents. Having made phone calls home to parents, it was often NOT a surprise to find where the kid gets his/her attitude. (Listening to a parent say to a small child “Give me that f**king pen” was disturbing to say the least.)
Gosh B.H.D., what role have you and the rest of your cousins’ family taken in educating/schooling your cousin and taking action to ensure that your cousins children do not grow up to be killers? As a former welfare recipient I do take offense at your generalization that all welfare recipients are lazy, baby making females with no parenting skills and ought to be forced to become sterile because the children of welfare are the ones causing problems in our society. I can appreciate some of your sharp wit but this kind of social ignorance is unacceptable. Shame on you
I agree Sarah. I’m one of the people who stopped addressing the rude behaviors, after I decided the risk was too great.
I’ve seen it happen: someone asks someone to stop a rude or disruptive behavior. The disruptive person “goes off”, gets in the requester’s face, and continues to harrass them. Even more frightening is when the requester gets off at a stop, and the disruptive person follows them off the bus. Then what?
That’s a risk I cannot afford to take.
I will agree with your first comment - I met some very nice people and drivers on the #5. Had some very enjoyable conversations. Particularly on the morning commute, when the criminal element was still sleeping.
Unfortunately, a lot of those types of idiots on the bus are LOOKING for a confrontation. So, asking them (nicely or not) to behave is exactly what they want.
Wade and BusHatingDude are 100% correct in their assertions. The only thing missing from their comments is that liberal politicians of these Twin Filthpits called cities make sure this human trash has a place to live, eat, and sleep. Section 8 rental properties all over the place, slumloards, etc. The solution is simple. Revoke the licenses of the problem rental properties, quit replacing them with new ones. This filth and their crack-smoking, baby-spitting machines they call mom will have to go back to the slums of Gary, Chicago, or Detroit where they came from.
As a Twins season ticket holder I am certainly aware of the expense of parking downtown–not to mention the almost unbearable traffic. I used to complain about it–then I decided to be proactive and became a lightrail rider. I would park my car near the MOA or at the Franklin Ave station and hop on the train to be deposited just steps away from the Dome. I was hooked–it was cheap, I avoided all the trials of downtown driving and it certainly was very convenient. For the first several weeks, it was an ideal partnership. After that however, things began to go downhill. I was routinely hassled by intoxicated or just “strange” people. I was mugged and the last time I rode I was followed off of the bus and had to fight my attacker and push him out of my car. After all of this, I’m back behind the wheel of my car, not a complaint crosses my lips. It’s just so sad because public transit would be a perfect, convenient, economical solution for me–if it was safe. I hope that transportation officials get it right–I’m not sure that this “harsh crackdown” is what is needed, but who knows?
Kate, that sucks!! I haven’t use the LR much for Dome events yet (I just moved to Bloomington in Oct - it wasn’t practical when I lived in St Paul), but I’m looking forward to using it for Twins and Gopher games for the next few years.
This whole thing is so frustrating!
Vicky and Marc brought up an interesting point. Transit IS safer and more pleasant in Manhattan than it is here. (For that matter so is just walking down the sidewalk.) New Yorkers just seem to be more civil overall that the trash here.
On St. Patrick’s day I took my two year old daughter for her first bus ride to downtown St. Paul to see the parade. The ride to downtown was uneventful, but while waiting for the ride home a group of thugs came right up to us and started “rapping” out loud. The lyrics included words I can’t write here, and I certainly felt uncomfortable listening to them. What bother me the most is that they all plainly saw the little girl with me, but had no problem re-citing words that spoke of violence towards women. I wanted so desperately to say something, but figured this could result in physical danger. So I left to catch the bus at another stop.
I guess public transportation is simplest way to view a loss of basic social politeness.
I am happy to have the privilege of driving, and providing this privilege to my daughter. I feel bad for under-privileged people who must expose themselves and their children to this.
I grew up in Detroit with no mass transit. I’ve lived here since 1985 and use mass transit daily from my house in Frogtown. I take the 16, the 50, or the 67 on occasion. In the passed I have regularly used the 21 as well. Bad things happen. Those who thought that Kassie and Danielle were foolish missed their point. I am guessing that the majority of you folks walk down the street and don’t make eye contact with anyone. Every day I make it a point to look at people and smile at them when I am able to make eye contact. I am either ignored, or smiled back at. I sit in the back of the bus both to and from work. Granted, I work days, but in the afternoons there are a lot of people of all walks on the bus. Yup, I hear swearing. Big deal - as long as it isn’t attacking someone, I don’t care. I’ve had plenty of encounters with drunks and the mentally ill. True, you can’t predict their behavior - the best you can do is be polite and move on, whether to another seat, getting off the bus, whatever. At a bus stop at Selby and Snelling a number of years ago I was “flashed” by a strung out woman who asked me to perform a sexual act I will not repeat here. I moved away from her, waited for my bus, got on and basically ignored her. Bottom line: if you feel that unsafe on the bus, don’t take it. I don’t go out at night unless I have a ride or a car to drive, so since I am broke anyway, I don’t go out. I don’t walk alone ANYWHERE at night (don’t give me how safe the ‘burbs and small towns are - many of the child abductions in this state in the last 20 years happened outside city limits). Perhaps it is because growing up in Detroit I always locked my doors and was ever-vigilant. People: don’t expect others to protect you, learn to protect yourself or at the very least, avoid situations your gut tells you aren’t safe. I didn’t need a gun in Detroit, I don’t need one here. When my time is up, it’s up, and as long as do what I can to mitigate problems, I should be okay. Just remember, bad things happen to good people anywhere and everywhere.
how should I feel about ride the bus?
Just an addendum to the tale I posted earlier…
It was not my intention to scare people away from using the bus. I have ridden the bus since and will continue to do so when it makes sense, and despite recent events I would “hop on” without any trepidation whatsoever. The bus is just too convenient to ignore for avoiding parking hassle on trips to university sports events or downtown.
But not everyone would feel the same. Honestly, who wants to endure harassment on the bus from a bunch of thugs? I can hardly blame people who’ve experienced stuff like that firsthand for being wary.
What keeps some from using the bus is that unruly behavior goes unchecked, not factual accounts of episodes here and there. It seems to me that Sarah and FormerRouteFiveRider are spot on the mark…they want to be doing the exact opposite of “playing the victim”–but when we have direct evidence that some people don’t hesitate to bring a firearm on board the bus with them, extreme caution (if not avoidance) looks very sensible in that situation.
Perception of crime affect my mass transit habits? Not at all.
Perception of harassment affect my mass transit habits? Absolutely.
What I have been reading here sounds like almost exact descriptions of students in school-minus the public urination. The foul, vulgar language, smack talk, loud talking, intimidation, theft, disrespect, trash throwing, etc.
I am not even talking about inner city schools. I am talking about suburban schools, where the minority numbers are less. You should see how many white students dress, act and talk like “ganstas” or rappers and move and speak like they grew up in the ghetto or down south somewhere. It is my own little joke when I ask one of them they are from, because I thought I detected an “accent.”
Bad behavior is glorified and immortalized. Good behavior needs to be exemplified. Parents have lost control or never had it to begin with. Their children and the society they impose them on, are expected to deal with it.
As another reader wrote earlier, the buses are a microcosm of the society we live in.
Bus-Hating Dude and Wade S. have got it down cold. Add another “garbage route” to your list - the 22. I refuse to take this route from Brooklyn Center to my job in Downtown Minneapolis anymore because there are known criminals on that bus. To be fair, I have never been bothered, but three guys, who apparently felt they didn’t need to pay a fare like the rest of us, tried to punch the lady driver in the head when she insisted. The driver whipped out a broomstick and busted one of these fools in the head. They all ran off, but it was a scary incident for all of us in the middle of the day.
I would also like to suggest the bus stops be policed. There is more harrassment and criminal activity going on where the 5 and 22 dump their passengers than people think.
I attended the University of Minnesota several years ago and often took public transit. That all came to a screeching halt when I had two unnerving instances occur. I was taking the bus to work downtown around noon on a weekday. A drunk man came on the bus, stumbled into the seat next to me and promptly passed out in my lap. The bus was relatively full and everyone acted like they didn’t see this and offered no help. I couldn’t decide who was worse, the drunk or the rest of the passengers.
A couple nights later I was riding around 9:30pm with my husband through a south Minneapolis area. There was a large group of boys/young men talking behind me about killing someone. Exactly saying, “The next time I see him, I’m gonna plug him in the back of the head.” (excluding expletives) At the next stop, the man sitting ahead of me stood up, went to the back door and said to the boys, “Don’t do it. Trust me, I know.”
That was over 6 years ago. Haven’t been on a bus since. I’d rather walk and take my chances.
An acquaintance recently expressed concern over my riding the bus, because it seemed “unsafe” to him.
He cannot drive due to receiving multiple DWIs. He said he’d never take the bus because of the dangers involved.
I told him that since 2001, 4 people have been killed on MN buses. In contrast, over 1500 people have died in alcohol related traffic deaths in the same time period. Who’s safer?
Good point, CC.
It all depends on the route. As the Metro Transit Police cheif tactfully put it in the Star Trib article yesterday, “Transit systems reflect the communities they serve,” he said, “and violent acts sometimes spill over” from those communities.
The route I ride serves a different community than the routes with past troubles. I usually take a seat in the middle of the bus, not the front nor back, plug into an mp3 player, and read a magazine.
Apparently in the view of some Roadguy readers, dehumanizing invective is the answer to bad behavior on transit.
Thinking of other people as trash that needs to be shipped off to Chicago or Indiana is absurd.
As a liberal, I in no way wish to coddle criminals or condone meritless freebies for anyone.
But we don’t solve social ills by mindlessly demonizing the poor and uneducated, or by wishing they’d move to some other beleaguered city.
The weekend’s shooter is arrested, and hopefully will do plenty of hard time. But we are already jailing more people than any other industrialized nation — and we don’t get any safer.
Clearly other cultures are doing a better job of handling these problems than we are (Canada, Britain, Australia…). Lets see what works for them and try some of it, rather than just treating problem people as scum.
So that makes me a liberal. And proud of it.
I can’t seem to stop myself from commenting again and again, but this thread is just so fascinating. I hope to god someone from MetroTransit is paying attention.
Kassie, tell that to the family of the man who refused to be a victim and stood up to some loudmouth punks on the bus and was killed for it. What’s your solution in those situations? I know how rare it is that that actually happens, but so too does that incident render it extremely rare that someone gets the courage to stand up to people who are ruining the commute for everybody else. It’s not about “playing the victim” — it’s about expecting a basic level of human decency and respect while sharing a communal method of transport, and encountering precisely the opposite on too many bus lines.
MetroTransit’s usage of the new advertising graphic with the small child holding a teddy bear while sitting on the bus, with the implication that riders should consider who else is on the bus before they act up? Uh, chances are that those same punks would have no compunction about acting up in front of their own children, so what’s to compel them to clean up their act in front of someone else’s? Joe hits it right on the head with his “social tolerance for the behavior.” I can’t tell you how many times the person I’ve seen acting like a rude jerk to the bus driver and other passengers has a child in tow with them. They’re sending a fine message to their child and in effect raising the next generation of punk who will treat everybody the same way they saw their parent treat people. This is just generational and there’s no end in sight unless someone breaks the cycle by teaching parents how to be parents. Heather made this point more eloquently than I ever could.
On a related note, Ben brings up an interesting point — aren’t curfews in effect anymore?
The worse things get on the bus lines, the more the transit will degrade and the less people will use it. Chicago, New York, those areas have great transit because people need it and the authorities recognize that their cities can’t exist without it, so they don’t tolerate the trash. Minneapolis is still mired in the car-culture mentality and transit is the afterthought, so these are the results.
The Uptown Transit Station is what’s killing Uptown. Punks ride in, rob some yuppies or bust into a car, ride back home with their booty… all in a day’s work. Sometimes increased access isn’t always what it’s cracked up to be. Any wonder why I look forward to moving OUT of Uptown when all I could remember from living here previously (6 years ago) was how great it was? No more. It isn’t worth it.
And Sarah’s got a great point too — if we felt that our fellow passengers would rise up with us and stand up against trash on the buses without fear of reprisal, it’d work. But people aren’t willing to stick their necks out for each other around here. I know that’s borne of fear and people just trying to get where they’re going without hassle, but eventually the trash is going to pick on YOU and you’ll wish you stood up for that little old lady who talked back to some punk who sassed her while everyone around her sat quietly looking out the window.
While I can’t speak to experiences while riding the bus in the Cities (because I don’t ride it), I can say that my general experience riding the light rail has been fine. Bear in mind that I normally rode during commuting hours between the Lake St./Midtown station and the Hennepin Ave. station. However, I took advantage of my monthly pass and used it to ride into downtown Minneapolis for evening events too, mostly walking from Hennepin Ave. to First Avenue/7th Street Entry. Generally, the light rail crowd thins out after 7 p.m. (unless there’s a baseball or football game), and the noise level and behavior are pretty tolerable. I witnessed the transit cops throw a few people off the train late at night, for what reason I don’t know, and it can be stressful when the train is packed to the point where you’re practically hugging the pile of people surrounding you. But if you take the train every day, I guess most people get used to it. I’ve also tried burying my nose in a book and wearing headphones, as well as just sitting there with no book or headphones — either way didn’t seem to make any difference as to who paid attention to me or who didn’t.
I never felt uncomfortable walking from the Lake Street station to my car — you have to cross a school parking lot to get to the on-street parking — and I did it quite frequently after dark by myself. The most interaction came from people looking for transfers, to which if you replied politely “no,” they’d leave you alone.
Granted, I haven’t been victimized while using public transportation in any way, but I thought I’d put my two cents in that for the most part, my light rail experience has been tolerable.
Where I’ve seen confrontation is mostly outside the train — walking from the Hennepin Station to First Avenue isn’t the most pleasant experience late at night, but I’ve never been accosted. I witnessed a robbery in the skyway one night, aside from the usual loiterers doing their thing around Block E. I know there are worse incidents that occur, but I suppose it comes down to timing. Either you’re there or you’re not when it happens.
But knowing that crime and situations that can make people uncomfortable exist, I would still choose to ride the light rail when I feel it’s the economical and ecological choice for my tranportation need.
I’ve also ridden on other cities’ transit systems (Chicago and NYC — I actually liked riding the bus in NYC) and agree that if you plan your trips ahead of time and understand the rider demographics no matter where you are, it’s a lot easier to get on and get off without feeling intimidated.
I don’t think that it is fair to say that Route 74 is not a problem route. I used that line EVERYDAY for 3 years. I am hard pressed to recall a time when there was NOT some type of disagreement/incident on the bus. I had a gun pulled on me during one ride, yup the 74, because one of these “grown-up” teenagers stepped on my shoe & I told him he had, hoping that he would at least apologize. Instead of an apology, I was threatened & had a gun pulled on me. The reason I did not report the incident is because it was late, I had just got off from working my second job & I just wanted to go home. Being the type of person that I am & having a rough backround, I wasn’t scared when the gun was pulled, I actually laughed at the little boy who had it!!!! But I do understand why most people who experience some type of harrassment on public transportation do not report it….they may see the person who caused the incident again..or their friends & something might happen to them anyways…next time.
I don’t believe the problem is Metro Transit protecting its riders…I believe its the parents/guardians of the kids that are out WAY past curfew, who need to step up, snatch their kids up out of the streets & through them into school, sports, some activity which is stimulating & productive to the participant & their community. What were a bunch of kids doing out after curfew anyways????? WHERE ARE THE PARENTS/GUARDIANS??????? You can’t walk to a bus stop in Downtown St.Paul w/out being mobbed by groups…and groups of kids selling drugs, spitting, fighting, doing drugs, loitering, or just causing trouble. I say that if more parents/guardians are held accountable for there KIDS actions, maybe they would be more aware of where there CHILDREN ARE…..last time I checked you weren’t an adult until you were at least 18 & could support yourself outside of your parent/guardians residence while being a positive, contributing member of society.
There used to be undercover cops on the buses up until about 5 years ago. The last chief, Jack Nelson ceased all plain clothes operations on the bus routes and they have not been reinstated under the new chief.
The problems on the bus routes are indicative of the problems that are in the community. Until parents deal with their kids, and until the judicial system sends a message that vulgarity, violence and disorderly behavior is not tolerated these problems will continue.
There have been undercover officers assaulted by thugs on the buses and in the bus shelters. Nothing like a prosecutor telling the cop that he has a problem with the case because the suspect doesn’t know he/she is a cop or a judge in Hennepin County telling the prosecutor that the suspect should have knowledge that person he/she is attacking is a cop to be charged with assault on a peace officer. If these thugs will attack folks they suspect are cops, what chance does the average person stand?
I had a friend who was a driver for the MTC. He had to quit driving because he couldn’t take the harrasment as a white driver on the Route 5 anymore. The profanity that was projected at him for asking the people to pay the fare was unspeakable.
On one occasion He had ro tell a man to put his pants back on, and at the end of his route he discovered that the man left Feces packed underware on the floor of the bus.
This was a incident true, But as a person living in the North Side I see it also when I take the 5 or the 14. Children as young as six swearing and calling people names. Parent not caring. If we need to see change, we need to teach manners in school like the Nun’s in my Catholic Grade school back in the 60’s did. A ruler on the back side. Maybe then these young children and adults will learn respect.
And People If you see a problem in a bus that is considered a danger and you have a Cell Phone Call 911. Help the Driver. He has enough watching the Road and Streets. He has the ability to call but may not see what you see.
You are much more likely to die driving than taking transit. Just look at the statistics, there are many more random traffic deaths due to accidents than there are deaths on transit because of crime.
Ms. V- You rock the block! Thank you for your sane and reasonable comments.
Vicki- I love the Uptown Transit Station. It’s so much better than waiting in front of McDonald’s like back in the day. Of course, at least 2 of the benches and one of the clock faces are screwed up, but what do you expect from Metro Transit?
I have no idea why some people (not just Vicki) think comparing the Minneapolis transit system to New York or Chicago is valid. This kind of comparison isn’t (Minne)appples to oranges, this is apples to an orange grove. How are things in other cities approximately our size?
I think part of the reason why Uptown isn’t doing so well is because of bad landlord decisions (Uptown does not need more overpriced condos, bye bye Calhoun Square) rather than the perception of crime. I’m much more afraid of some loudmouth drunk yuppie walking out of Drink or Figilio than I am of someone busting into a car. The perception of crime is not the reality of crime. It’s totally different for other people- I’m a white male and most people don’t mess with me on the street… except for drunk white males. I think crimes against property are not good but are much less serious than crimes against people.
Read Ms. V’s post. I think it’s got some really good coping ideas.
my husband and i have ridden the 14 for the last 5 years: first from the warehouse district into downtown and now from south minneapolis (powderhorn park neighborhood) into downtown for work, monday through friday. we tend to avoid the busses any other time except for occasional trips to the lightrail to get to the airport. we choose to ride the bus during the week for many reasons: out of convenience, to save on wear and tear on our cars, to save on gas, to save on parking downtown, to avoid driving during inclement weather and to avoid the daily hassle of both rush hours. of course riding the bus can be a huge annoyance, but these are mostly due to my own particular issues (they can be dirty and smelly, people can be louder than i would like, etc). on that note, i have never felt “unsafe” per say, but i do avoid “losing myself” while on the bus so that i can be aware of my surroundings and be cautions. as unfortunate as it is that such terrible crimes have happened on the bus as of late, they have also happened everywhere else in our fair city, not just on the bus. i think the key to riding the busses is to be smart and play it safe. we can only do so much, unfortunately some things (mainly others behavior) are out of our control. as far as increased police visibility on the busses and at the bus stops, i don’t feel that this is necessary at all hours, but “after hours” would make sense particularly on troubled routes and at troubled stops. quite frankly, it’s unfortunate that these discussions even need to happen, but as we all know the world we live in is far from perfect.
Ray - that’s helpful information, but I’m not basing my transit choices on how likely I am to die getting to and from work.
I have the luxury of a choice - I own a car, have parking available to me at my workplace. My partner, by default, has parking too because we ride together. Since I’ve become a FormerRouteFiveRider, my daily stress level has been reduced a thousand-fold.
No longer do I have to wonder what I will encounter on the bus after work. No longer do I have to anticipate sitting through 40 minutes of profanity, rude comments, and immature behavior. No longer do I have to wonder if my commute will be delayed because the driver has to stop and convince an intoxicated person to get off the bus, or call for help when a youth is harrassing other passengers.
In talking with the drivers during my commuting years, I learned that they get to choose their routes by seniority. Most all of them were frank with me, saying that the #5 was the most hated route and no one ever chose it. Meaning that the less-senior (read: less-experienced) drivers ended up with it. So you have a bus full of thugs and an inexperienced driver. Not terribly confidence-inspiring.
But that’s another topic - the bus driver should be able to just drive the bus, and not police people who don’t know how to behave in socially-appropriate ways.
I’ll also agree with the person who pointed out that some of the rudest, most vulgar and profane chatter comes from riders who are accompanied by small children. Its not hard to figure out why teens are behaving inappropriately…
As a rider of the Metro Transit 16 route since the inception of the U-Pass from the University of Minnesota (rougly 4 years ago). I can see the behavior of passengers getting worse. The loud and rude (and potentially violent) behavior of people that get on the bus is not being policed. It seems there is a refusal to police it. I believe this is due to a fear of being accused of racial profiling. In the past years I would say that 70% or more of the behavior is of African-Americans in their teens to mid-twenties. This is a dangerous topic to bring up, I know, however this is conversation that is almost entirely avoided that needs to be had and Minneapolis as a whole needs to grapple with this issue. Now, I do not believe that every African-American on the bus is a criminal, rather I believe this may be why there is a refusal to police the behavior no matter who is committing it.
This situation can also be seen around areas of downtown Minnepolis. Especially near Gameworks on almost any given night. Gangs of “thugs” are loitering in the area and I have even withnessed one such gang threaten a homeless person walking through the area. Again the police refuse to remove what is so obviously a negative culture on the streets of Minneapolis. They simpy drive by. Why is that? I cannot understand. Until they do, intelligent people, of any ethnicity, will stay away from the area for their own safety.
One issue of comparison between New York transit and Minneapolis transit that does not take metropolitan size into account is the fact that an average commute on New York transit was leisurely and an effective way to finish a newspaper or magazine or consume oneself with such pursuits. Yes, you’re constantly aware of who else is on your vehicle, but you’re not nervous that they might start something. (Could also be the layout of the subway car vs. the layout of the bus — your back is to the action, which can make anyone nervous.) Anyway, contrast that with a Minneapolis transit experience, wherein not only do you have to be hyperaware of what’s going on behind you, but you also are worldly enough to expect situations to escalate from loud talking to yelling to screaming and fighting and so on.
It sounds so Pollyanna of me to say it this way, but the crux of it is manifested from what FormerRouteFiveRider conveys: a transit ride on certain lines in the Twin Cities is not an exercise in leisurely travel. It is a stressful and tense experience for many, and thus can often ruin someone’s day in the process. We shouldn’t have to dread our commutes. My regular commute in NYC was typically an hour no matter where I was going, but I never dreaded a moment of it. Getting on an unfamiliar bus route in Minneapolis makes me nervous from the get-go.
I currently live in Plymouth and love the bus. But previously I took the 761 from Mpls to Brooklyn Center. I usually felt safe but very uncomfortable every time I rode it, even during rush hours. At the Brookdale transit we would get people pouring into the 761 from the 5. I sat there and prayed that nobody would sit with me. The whole mood of the bus would change. I have been verbally assaulted and harassed on this bus and have also been followed off of the bus into my neighborhood twice.
Those few incidents don’t compare to the 22. The 22 is just gross to ride. I would usually only ride it during the noon hour because the 761 wasn’t offered outside of the rush hour times. I also sat close to the driver on the 22 but it didn’t matter. I never felt comfortable. I barely blinked but tried to look cool and relaxed during the ride. I don’t know if this helped, but it made me feel better, so I went with it. I was fortunate enough never to take the 5. I was lucky to have the 22 as an alternative, I guess.
It is night and day when I think back on my time in Brooklyn Center and North to the present Plymouth bus. I can now sleep on the bus, if I want to, in Plymouth and not worry about a thing. Previously I would have never closed my eyes for more than a second.
I just wanted to let the suburban people know that people aren’t talking about the calmness that you see on your bus, it is a totally different reality.
I also agree that children would be better if their parents disciplined them. But who is going to discipline the parents?
Snowman, clearly there is no sun in your world. The “love one another” ideal you promote died in the 60s. Problem people are scum. The sooner you realize it, the faster this place becomes better. You are liberal. Liberals dont think with their heads. Liberals make excuses for people that dont deserve it. The reason other countries are doing a better job of controlling scum is because they send that trash here where people like you can make excuses for their animal like behavior.
I’m still finding this to be a very interesting discussion, usually these threads have gone stale and off-topic before they get this long.
So for anyone else who finds this interesting, I want to make a plug for a book that I recently read, not very long and fascinating for some of the same reasons as this thread. It tackles parenting, crime, and racial issues (among others) from an economics perspective, and it’s completely understandable to someone who has no background in economics (e.g. me). One of the most interesting books I have ever read:
I’ve spent the last half hour reading this thread–it’s fascinating. I’m a junior at the U of M, and beside the campus buses I’ve only ridden the 16, 3, and LTR during my freshman year when I didn’t have a car. I was never overly bothered but didn’t ride at night. The only harassing I received was being hit on or similar comments–it was uncomfortable but I also expected it. Now, I’ve moved to Uptown and will need to commute to campus. With the soon to be decreased daily parking at the U due to the stadium construction, I have been planning to bus from my neighborhood, Lowry Hill East, to the East and West Banks of campus. I’m guessing that most people riding that line (14?) are people like me, students or people going to work at the U or nearby areas, and it’s a really short ride, but it is still a little unnerving to a young, dare I say attractive, female to hear these stories. I’ll still be riding the bus-but it makes me think twice.
The #5 Minneapolis bus would pick me up 1/2 block from work, and drop me 1/2 block from home. Many bus-related crimes that have made the paper in the past 10 years occurred on the #5. Though it’s probably safe, it can be nasty to ride. The volume can be bad, the language even worse (language that would make Don Imus blush). Though I would rather “go green,” I’ll drive and pay parking to avoid that bus.
Ray, the MTC called and they are going to use your post as there new ad campaign. “Ride the Bus: your much less likely to die riding it! No one has yet to be shot riding all the way to Burnsville!”
I recall about 13-14 years ago when I needed to go back to my office downtown after dinner one summer evening. My wife was using the car, so I decided to bus it from my home in Highland Park. I invited my then-4 year old daughter to come with me. The ride downtown was fun and uneventful until we got to 5th & Minnesota. That’s where most of the people who got on the bus on Randolph and West 7th get off, and the people riding to the East Side get on. Most of the people just got on, paid their fares and took their seats. But a group of about 6-7 kids aged about 5-15, who seemed to be in the charge of a couple older teenage girls got on. They were shouting, cursing and fighting with one another and went (of course) immediately to the back of the bus where they sprawled out and kept up the din. The older girls tried to control them by shouting, cursing and threatening them with violence, but to no avail (how clueless can some people be?). My little girl stared wide-eyed, and the look on her face said it all. What planet were these people from? My daughter had never witnessed this type of behavior at home or in the neighborhood. Welcome to your world, little girl!
I have not forgotten this incident, and I thought of it the other night when I heard about the shooting, wondering whether any of the people invloved in the incident were part of that boisterous mob af kids my daughter gawked at!
I used to live in St. Paul, near the 16 line. Too often, I encountered drug deals taking place at the bus stop, or even in the bus, though it was a generally safe area. Additionally, I was riding the 16 on two occasions when it had to stop to allow police to arrest one of its passengers. As such, I began to drive downtown if it was going to be dark either going to or coming from work–in other words, 3/4 of the year!
Once my lease expired, I moved to the SW metro and have yet to experience anything similar. Of course, ulike the 16, the SW metro routes are farther removed from both depressed, urban areas and college hangouts. And, of course,unlike the 16, the SW metro passengers aren’t nearly as interesting, colorful, and engaging.
UofMstudent, you shouldn’t be discouraged from riding the bus by comments here. The 114 in particular (I think this is the express bus from Uptown to the U) is a very calm route. Most routes are not bad at all. My daily commute travels a mile or so through the Phillips neighborhood, and I’m generally perfectly comfortable (as a very unimposing younger woman) - there’s nobody more threatening than a disoriented drunk now and then. Some routes are not as safe as others, though, like the 5. I do feel sorry for the people who are having to put up with a lot just to get around.
UofMStudent -
The express busses between LowryHillEast/Uptown and the U of M (113, 114, 115, respectively) are relatively quiet (save for the loud, post teenybopping types on their mobile phones) and full of people either just like you, or just like the people you have to deal with behind the desks at the library, in the registrars office, etc. - thus, there really is nothing to ‘fear’.
I agree with UptownDan. Can we PLEASE leave the comparisons to NYC or Chicago (or San Fran or DC) out of here? It’s pointless–I remember an earlier Roadguy post when a woman from Chicago commented about how she was looking for mass transit in Minneapolis and someone said something to the effect of “only poor people don’t have cars.” The fact is here on the East Coast and in other metropolitan centers, many people don’t have cars and rely on the bus. Whether the excellent mass transit convinced them they don’t need a car or the hassles of driving spawned the mass transit is something I don’t know, but I do know that rich and poor ride the subway and busses–only the very well-heeled/poor money managers take taxis and car services everywhere.
I’m all for an excellent train system that could be used by commuters. Roadguy, perhaps you can check out the Strib archives (a privilege I no longer have) but I remember reading an editorial that said MSP is the exact size DC was when they put in their mass transit. I know we are a different beast than DC, but I also think we have a large rate of sprawl that needs to be addressed.
Crime affects all transportation. There’s a lot of road rage out there (see previous posts)
Liberals don’t make crime. The tolerance of crime is based on MONEY.
Our leaders, regardless of political alliance, go with the exact same agenda used when New Orleans was under water. They say, “They’re just poor, and mostly Black–Why bother? Nuthin’ in it fer us…”
If bus crime and incivility rolled into Edina, then there would be some action.
I used to ride the 10 through NE Mpls… During rush hour it wasn’t horrible, but you still might experience the drunk with his pants falling down, or the guy who would just openly spit on the floor. I only rode at night with my husband or a group of girls. If I had to work late, I would take a cab or call a friend.
My biggest problem with what happened last weekend is why were groups of kids on the bus after midnight? I think a curfew should be imposed on city buses. The biggest problem with this is that if I were a driver, I wouldn’t want to enforce it for fear of the gun-toting teen!
I don’t care what your race, your ethnicity, your income or your age is, I’ll be happy to ride the bus with you, as long as your BEHAVIOR approximates that of civilzed people in all parts of the world!
Metro Transit, please pay attention. There’s a group of us that put up with this nonsense and keep riding because we see the value in your product, but there appears to be lots of other city folks who’d otherwise use it if these barbarians were controlled better. I’ve long suspected you’ve been looking for excuses to further curtail city services to send more buses to the exurbs.
I can’t speak for other municipalities, but the curfew age is midnight if you are 16-17 in St. Paul, 10 PM if you are 15>. Want kids to be more responsible? Don’t let them drive, vote, be in the military, or have adult rights until they are 21. I don’t think they should go to college until then, anyway. People don’t want that because they don’t want to pay for kids up to age 21. The other option is that the age of majority for everything is 16 so when someone decides they’ve had enough and pops one of them juvies they won’t be accused of assaulting a “child”. One doesn’t need a license to be a parent, but it sure would be nice to have some type of checks/balances to figure out who needs some serious parenting skills.
Just in case metro transit isn’t looking at this blog, I copied the link onto the comment section of their website and requested a reply. If everyone else did the same perhaps that would get their attention eh? http://www.metrotransit.org
MN Traffic Statistics 2005
87,813 traffic crashes
37,686 injuries
2,019 serious injuries
559 DEATHS
MN Traffic Statistics 2004
91,274 traffic crashes
40,073 injuries
2,424 serious injuries
567 DEATHS
Not to minimize the two recent deaths and one injury on Twin Cities’ buses, but driving is definitely more life threatening than riding.
On another note…
I’ve been riding the bus in Minneapolis for over 20 years and just don’t understand this conversation. Rude, loud, obnoxious behavior can happen anywhere and the last time I checked, it wasn’t a crime. I (we) live in a diverse country and city and in my daily life come in contact with a huge variety of people from different backgrounds, living different lifestyles, holding different values and striving for different goals than I am. My point of view is that difference is wonderful. But, if you are afraid of anyone and everyone who doesn’t look exactly like you and live exactly like you, then the bus is not the place for you, and honestly, most major U.S. cities aren’t the place for you. The majority of this conversation is unbelievably disappointing and proof that racism is very alive and well in Minneapolis and St. Paul. These ignorant and racist rants are disturbing and frightening and quite honestly, I think most of us have more to fear from Bus Hating Dude than any teenager talking loud on the bus. And all these code words are insulting and certainly not fooling anyone. If you’re afraid of black people then say it. If you’re afraid of latinos then say it. If you’re afraid of anyone who speaks another language, eats another food, wears different clothing or has a different color skin than yours, just say it. But enough of “the low pants wearing trash”, “thugs”, “teenagers” and “ghetto” labels. We all know who you’re referring to. The rudest people I’ve seen on the bus are all of you white 20 - 40 somethings who don’t seem to have the sense to give up your seat in the front to let the elderly, handicapped or parents with small children sit down when the bus is full. I guess that’s because you all want to be as close to the driver as possible just in case someone speaks in a loud tone of voice or uses a word you don’t find acceptable and it scares you.
Not a bad idea, but like I said before I’m not sure there’s a whole lot that MetroTransit can do about it, even if they throw a ton of money at it.
Veronica - your assumption that we are all white 20-40somethings and your assumption that we are implying racism by calling them “thugs” and “teenagers” is just as disgusting as you make us out to be. You’re stereotyping us just as much as you’re accusing us of stereotyping others. How do you know how old I am (aside from the clues about my work and life that I’ve provided)? How do you know my ethnicity? How do you know my socio-economic status? You’re just as guilty of making sweeping generalizations as the rest of us.
I have only use the term “thugs” here because, in my personal example, they were acting like thugs. To be honest, I couldn’t tell you for sure the ethnicity of the group of 7-8 males I encountered downtown… It was dark and they were all dressed like “gangstas” - heavy jewelry, do-rags, sports jerseys, and pants with crotches around their ankles. They were trying to intimidate ANYONE who walked into their area, as I could tell from watching them after I boarded the train.
RACISM? Hey, Ms Veronica, if someone is packing a gun at the age they’re supposed to be carrying books and games, I don’t care what color they are. You wave a gun at me, I will not notice if you are blue with green stripes!
Barry - spare us the race card - The rocket scientists in New Orleans were told to leave - didn’t. People in Edina don’t live below sea level and probably have the sense to leave when to…Oh forget it! Just stick to your race baiting and class envy - you’ll go far
Thugs can be any color, including white. It’s an issue of behavior, and no person, no matter what there skin color, has the right to verbally harass others, physically intimidate them, or cause a public health problem on the bus.
Sorry Veronica, but jumping to conclusions and labeling people as racists and bigots for trying to discuss a legitimate issue is what keeps these issues from being solved.
Gee Veronica, what routes do you ride? LOL
You are all absolutely hysterical! Talking about an incident on the street downtown Minneapolis as if it has anything to do with riding the bus and then acting as if you don’t even know the ethnicity of the group of “thugs” you encountered - who are you kidding? Listen, if you’re scared, don’t ride the bus. If loud talking that’s not even directed at you intimidates you, don’t ride the bus. If people who don’t look like you frighten you, don’t walk down the street. Better yet, don’t leave your house. I live my life amongst all the people of this city and don’t live in fear. I know it’s a novel concept, but it can be done. And if it’s really that important to you, I’ve lived in the Whittier neighborhood, in the heart of Minneapolis, for over 20 years, don’t own a car and bus and train anywhere and everywhere I need or want to go in Minneapolis and St. Paul, including riding the 5 regularly. And Joe, what keeps legitimate issues like this from being resolved, is the inability of people from acknowledging that there is a racial component to the issue (or their concern with the issue), not me pointing out that this “conversation” has degenerated into a racist rant for many of the participants.
Yes, Veronica, tell us what routes you ride. We don’t want to make any assumptions about your residency, transportation choices or exposure (or lack thereof) to unacceptable, uncivilized behavior.
It’s not about race! It’s about BEHAVIOR!! Some people may want to use behavior as a way to discriminate on a race basis, but that makes them racists! I have as much use for them as I do for the jerks, thugs and loudmouths on the bus! It’s about respect, for crying out loud! Respectful people don’t act like what we are talking about here.
Sorry Veronica, I think you’re wrong. No city has ever boasted about having a wide variety of crime rates or boasted of its tolerance for public urination. Variety and tolerance are not virtues in and of themselves.
Is there a racial component to some people’s comfort levels on the bus? Probably. Are some of the people in here racists? Possibly. But it’s just as reprehensible to exert your own prejudice and label them for criticizing unruly or threatening behavior that they have personally experienced.
Veronica, let’s put it this way. What Don Imus did was outrageous and wrong. But it was his behavior that was wrong, not his skin color or ethnicity. His skin color didn’t make him say what he said. When a black or a white or an Asian or an Indian pees on the bus, shoots a gun, shouts obscenities, spits on the driver or threatens other passengers, this is wrong behavior. The fact that the person who does this is black or white or Asian or Indian has nothing to do with it. And to insinuate that these behaviors are somehow cultural aspects is disrespectful and insulting to the cultural group you are attributing them to.
Tom, that’s a very good try at manipulating my words. It falls off the mark, but A for effort.
– I (we) live in a diverse country and city and in my daily life come in contact with a huge variety of people from different backgrounds, living different lifestyles, holding different values and striving for different goals than I am. My point of view is that difference is wonderful.–
That is true. However, most here on this blog are complaining about the actions of some bus riders, not their skin color. I don’t think anyone asks to be physically/verbally assulted, witness another passenger expose their private parts, or have someone pass out next to them. If that’s your definition of diversity, please keep it out of the southwestern suburbs. Keep spouting how riding a bus is much safer than driving, but at least I don’t have to put up with that crap while on my commute.
Veronica: “Tom, that’s a very good try at manipulating my words. It falls off the mark, but A for effort. ”
I was not trying to manipulate your words. I am trying to understand where you are coming from. What does this mean: “These ignorant and racist rants are disturbing and frightening and quite honestly, I think most of us have more to fear from Bus Hating Dude than any teenager talking loud on the bus. And all these code words are insulting and certainly not fooling anyone. If you’re afraid of black people then say it. If you’re afraid of latinos then say it. If you’re afraid of anyone who speaks another language, eats another food, wears different clothing or has a different color skin than yours, just say it. But enough of “the low pants wearing trash”, “thugs”, “teenagers” and “ghetto” labels. ”
Are you saying that those of us who denouce criminal and loutish behavior in public are racists? If we complain about another’s behavior and that person happens to be a different race from us, does that make us a racist? Or what? Please explain your statements on this forum.
Veronic said
“You are all absolutely hysterical! Talking about an incident on the street downtown Minneapolis as if it has anything to do with riding the bus and then acting as if you don’t even know the ethnicity of the group of “thugs” you encountered - who are you kidding?”
I’m serious. There was at least one kid who looked caucasion, one that may have been hispanic, and at least one that looked african-american. It was dark, they were threatening, so I didn’t spend a hell of a lot of time looking at their faces trying to determine their ethnicity.
I’ve dealt with mouthy, disrespectful behavior from ALL races. (I worked in an inner-city school.) And trust me, the mouthy, disrespectful THUGS were any race and any color. Two of my biggest “problem children” were a caucation and the other was a native american - and yes, I’d call them THUGS for the way the behaved. It has NOTHING to do with race or behavior.
And the reason I mentioned the incident anyway was because they were lurking on the corner next to the train station, so I encountered them as a result of my needing to walk through them to get to the train. Just like incidents at a bus stop, incidents on the corner near a train station is just as relevant.
“It has NOTHING to do with race or behavior.”
Sorry, meant to say
“It has NOTHING to do with race, ONLY behavior.”
Three cheers for Tom.
More than half of these should be at http://www.Bustales.com
I could tell stories but in short,
I’m not worried since I started carrying pepper spray.
The issues are very old indeed. I’m sorry to say but I only seem to get hasstled by younger black men, I only get my big whiffs of pot smell from young black men. It is a sad shame but there does seem to be a trend at work. Bye Bye Borders Bookstore at Block E. Why all the “Non-Business” related traffic. It’s a mini-bus shelter. If you need to call it ” Racial Profiling” then do so.
I am willing to bet double or nothing on my exploding property tax that if people would reproduce proportionally to their ability to emotionally and financially raise a child, crime in America’s cities would plummet.
Why do we continually subsidize unmarried, uneducated teens to pump out babies? Why do we subsidize uneducated women who can barely take care of themselves to have their 4th, 5th, 6th baby? It would be interesting to see the Strib do some REAL investigative reporting and dig into the family situation of the morons doing these crimes.
A few recent articles has shown that there is a whole lotta irresponsible reproducing going on. Six kids seems to be quite popular for mommas these days, including one in particular who spawned at least one more after getting out of jail for murder. Sick. We responsible taxpayers pay for the birth, the welfare, the district attorney, and the eventual jail for too many morons.
Last summer, I helped a black male who had been kicked out of his house find some relatives that he had never met. His father has created 17 children with various women.
It amazes me that we need a license to catch fish but any crack momma can pump out children to her hearts content. We need laws that force women to abort or give children up to adoption if they cannot be supported.
Actually Botski, the welfare system in this state has changed dramatically in the last five years or so. Parents on assistance no longer receive increased grants for additional children once the grant is established and the five year lifetime limit is starting to have a real impact on the understanding that TANF stands for TEMPORARY assistance to needy families. Before you point the finger at single mothers and try to label them all as “crack momma(s)” who ought not be ALLOWED to have children perhaps you should do some research yourself. “Statistics released in February from the Hennepin South SErvices Collaborative showed that a household with a single parent and one child would need to have an hourly wage of $18.02 to meet the basic costs of housing, child care, transportation, and other living expenditures, totaling on average $37,464″. Where are our tax dollars really going?? I can tell you they are not being invested in programs that would help build sustainable communities, livable-wage employment, and affordable, livable housing. Shame on you for your crass, uninformed, self-rightous, and un-American comments. If you want to live where women are forced to abort or abandon their children move to China, I’m sure we’ll survive without your property tax contribution.
Melissa,
You are psychic, as soon you *will* survive without my property tax contribution especially if it continues to increase 25% per year as it has been the last two years.
(By the way, I didn’t say that all single moms are crack mommas, you somehow interpreted that through illbegotten reading comprehension.)
You can call me whatever you want, and the reference to China was inevitable. I find it sad that so many like you are ok with the status quo of year after year, the huge percentage of children being born to single moms. What is the number these days, 80% in our big cities? I don’t think this number has changed since the early 90’s. Year after year after year after year…. The results are coming to fruition now.
As a liberal, I can think of SO many better ways to help poor people get back on their feet. I would propose a welfare system that gives MORE money to kids to stay child free and graduate from college. The solution we have now is a joke. Too many people are unable to live in a society of reproductive freedom, and our urban society is falling apart because of it.
I knew that sooner or later this was going to degrade into a game “race-card poker”.
Veronica, If you’re ever riding a bus, and you see a young ehnic man pull a gun, are you going to stand between him and the other passengers, smile and say “I understand, our unfair society drove you to do this”.
I’m sure your fellow passengers will thank you for it.
Yes, I believe white people in the twin cities fear young, black men. Ride the bus and you see it on the faces of riders.
It’s not a pleasant fact, and not fair to the majority of young black men, but it’s also a fact that many of the incidents described here have given people good reason to fear.
Fact is, while rude, loud obnoxious behavior isn’t a crime, that’s no reason it should be tolerated no what the race of the offender is. Start holding people responsible for their actions, and you’ll see civilization return.
REMOVE THE BUS STOPS AT 7TH AND HENNEPIN AND 7TH AND NICOLLET NOW!!!
It is black youth that is committing 100% of the crime there so stop screaing racism!
Downtown will never reach its full potential with retail and entertainment till it honestly deals with crime and these crime ridden bus stops!
wake up people!
I really hope that your remarks are sarcasm Paul…removing the stops solves nothing, it’s not African American youth committing 100% of the crime, and screw the super subsidized, oh please let the tourists come, downtown.
609.72 DISORDERLY CONDUCT.
Subdivision 1. Crime. Whoever does any of the following in a public or private place,
including on a school bus, knowing, or having reasonable grounds to know that it will, or will
tend to, alarm, anger or disturb others or provoke an assault or breach of the peace, is guilty of
disorderly conduct, which is a misdemeanor:
(1) Engages in brawling or fighting; or
(2) Disturbs an assembly or meeting, not unlawful in its character; or
(3) Engages in offensive, obscene, abusive, boisterous, or noisy conduct or in offensive,
obscene, or abusive language tending reasonably to arouse alarm, anger, or resentment in others.
A person does not violate this section if the person’s disorderly conduct was caused by
an epileptic seizure.
Thank you, D. Let’s enforce this law!
First off, I live in the exurbs and commute to Bloomington via auto or motorcycle daily. It’s a busy commute, but it is relatively safe.
Last year, I took the light rail from Bloomington to Minnehaha Park for a company picnic at noon. There were two ‘incidents’ on the ride home at 1:30 PM.
Both incidents involved young, black women. I’m 49 and white. The first women was a young mother with two, small children. When the family was close to their stop, the mother started screaming (loudly) at her daughter (about 5 years-old) to wake up. The screaming continued for a couple of minutes with threats to ’smack you upside the head’. I can only imagine what the girl’s homelife must be like.
The second incident involved the another young woman. All of the seats were taken except for the one next to her. I sat next to her, and she looked at me with pure hatred in her eyes. I’m old enough not to care so I just smiled back, then ignored her. She continued to stare at me for several stops, then moved to a seat that became empty.
At neither time did I feel threatened, but I experienced negative social behavior in that 20 minute afternoon ride than I have in taking public transportion in Boston, New Jersey, Washington D.C., and San Francisco combined.
I cannot begin to imagine what it must be like at night for through the rougher neighborhoods.
I have been riding the bus regularly to work downtown Mpls. for a year and a half now and I love it. But it is during rush hour with lots of people and the only irritant has been loud children. Which I can surely live with however I am concerned and angry about the mayor et al response to Block E. What ever happened to holding people accountable in this city? When I was a kid we would be broken up as a group quite quickly. I realize things have changed crime wise, population wise. But we should not tolerate bad behaviour at any bus stop. I can’t believe we cannot afford beat cops at block E? Re-routing the buses for punks is absurd at best.
I came across this page because I constantly seek out stories pertaining to mass transit, as I am a huge fan of it. And I’m sorry to hear about the shootings. That’s simply horrible.
I thought public transit in Miami was bad. Whew! We’ve NEVER had shooting incidents on buses. Wow!
Anyways, as a Black man, I was quite shocked by some of the comments relating to race. I do understand that perception is reality for many people, so it is not inconceivable to say that - on some routes - the majority of the perpatrators are this race or that ethnicity and so on.
With tht said, one of the reasons certain neighborhoods have become unsafe, however, is the issue of middle-class flight. This is a problem that plagues most American cities. Due to disinvestment which leads to crumbling infrastructure, upwardly-mobile residents (of varying races and ethnicities) leave the Downtown neighborhoods and immediate suburbs and move away to the exurbs. This leaves behind one “type” of people, so you don’t have a nice mix to create a buffer, if you will.
I’m from Jamaica originally, and the same phenomenon occrued there, surprisingly, and Jamaica is 90% black. So, it is partially a race issue, but it is an issue of class more specifically.
And, then, now there’s the problem of gentrification, where the very “upwardly-mobile” people who moved away, now have the next generation moving back to the very Downtown/immediate surburban areas that their parents/grand parents abandoned and now facing the very children and grand children of those who never left. It’s quite a phenomenon.
But it is beyond you and me. It is something, as many of you have alluded, that transcends race and speaks to a larger societal issue. We have truly become a “Ghetto Nation” as Cora Daniels, the author of a book with the same title, terms it.
Rog, it was a pleasure to read your thoughtful and insightful comments. Thanks, and I hope previous commentors take pause.
I would like to give you a drivers insight, Yes you all hit it on all catagories, Imagine driving an 8 hr. day,most of the time it amounts to 10-12 hrs. with our splits, It sounds like the two shootings got your attention, But. how about the drivers being assaulted every day? Imagine going to your place of work in fear, being told your a crazy white hoe, because you ask for the fare! Imagine being spit on because you asked her to please fold stroller, another policy our managers want to enforce, so we are the pawns, We learn not to say anything, get through are 18 trips with out being beaten, we get plenty of complaints any ways, every route we have has it,s pocket of crime, we see it everyday, all day , we deal with the same ones on many routes, If we stand up to any of them, we are alone, we get no back up from any riders, If we even got a responds from just some of you we have a good day, their are tons of stories that don,t get in the papers, this crime did,nt just start latly, some drivers here for 25 yrs. remember the days back when their were no radios, video, and the way they had to deal with crime, I have one I remember; did any one hear about one of our buses being hijacked? well He also tried choking the driver with a hankercheif, while driver was still driving, amazing how a 40 ft. bus could be parked diagonaly on Kellogg , and no one noticed, amazing the bus can run two red lights, swerve down the busy streets,and no one noticed,and the bus was headed to GOD knows where!, It finally got pulled over by police, Put in jail, Defense attourney asked for speedy trial with in 120 days def.atty. requested, an evaluation, 3 times ,the 3rd. date set went past his 120 days, Judge let him go, on his own cognasince, didn,t even have to post his bail. def. atty. did her job , right? in the mean time driver is out driving through his neighborhood, but does not know where he might be, It just makes our day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Imagine that, You ride the bus for at least half an hor to 40 mins. at a time ,the things you hear and see don,t began to compare to the full day of this double feature of wild kingdom, and Lampoons nut house , we are the rolling chicken bone motel! God! these stories are a riot!!!!!!!!!1 Thank you for writing ,it makes my day a little brighter, and one other thing, The driver that was stabbed, never came back to work , no jail time for that kid, too young I guess,
Diane,
And we think we have it bad in the schools. At least we can get them to be quiet or apply consequences.
I hope that you have support personnel to turn to and receive combat training for heaven’s sake!
I have never heard from a bus driver before. I could only imagine. I can never board a bus again without a feeling of gratitude.
Diane: Thanks for posting here. This is one rider (I’ve ridden MTC/Metro Transit for 21 years) who appreciates the hard work you do, and the fact that you have to put up with this on a daily basis. I’ve never witnessed a driver being assualted, but have heard a lot of verbal crap directed at you guys, just for doing your job. One time when there was a fare increase, the driver made a couple ladies pay the extra $.25. They glared at the driver but said nothing. On the way to their seats, one of them muttered, “Greedy bastard!” As if the driver raised the fare!
Another time a woman got on with two little girls. She paid her fare and went to her seat in the back, but the little girls were having trouble getting their fare into the box. The driver, a sweet grandmotherly type woman, showed the girls how to pay. The woman, seeing the kids still talking to the driver yelled: “Don’t @3&* with my children!!”. The driver responded in a calm voice: “I am trying to show them how to pay the fare.” The woman yelled, “Those are MY children! Don’t @%&% with them!!”.
Wonder how those little girls will behave when they start riding the bus as they get older? Kinda sad.
I do have alot of support, drivers are pretty close. we debrief and let go on each other, It helps us get ready for another day, Thank you for YOUR support, We all need it , I don,t have trouble myself very often, but If I count the abuse I endure from black women, I can,t begin to count how many times in a day, We harden our selves to this after 15 years of it, I just tell my self ; Things could be worse, I could be in a wheel chair and have to put up with these people, or worse yet I would have to live with one, AND I STILL LOVE MY JOB! To me the good people out weigh the encounters daily, Thanks again for your understanding, keep writing! you have me hooked! I have to read this every night!
Diane: A very close relative of mine is a busdriver as well. Unfortunately he frequently regales us with tales of extremely abusive riders, adolescents carrying guns and for some odd reason, people mistaking upholstered seats for toilets. Each time I hear another story I can’t help but wonder why it is that he goes back day after day after day.
At any rate, I hope you (and others in the same occupation) know that there are folks that appreciate you. It’s ridiculous that it took something like these murders to spur us into action, but I, for one, hope that you experience some sort of relief and a certain amount of rider support from here on out.
Good luck!
Kate: Unfortunately, the support we riders can give the drivers only goes so far. In the Twin Cities, bus riders have been relegated to second class citizenship. The politicians and Metro Council people like to tout the light rail as a smashing success, which it is (ironically, some of these same people were saying over my dead body ten years ago). But at the same time, bus service has been deteriorating rapidly. In St. Paul alone, several miles of routes have been abandoned, and on many routes, 50% of the stops have been eliminated! The stop I used to board for my commute to work is gone, and the one I got off at my office is also gone. That means I have to walk an additional two blocks each trip. Not that big a deal for me, I’m middle aged and healthy, except on those below zero days when every extra step is a burden. Many of the stops they have closed down are at major intersections. For example, buses no longer stop at University and Lexington. Nor do they stop at Snelling and I-94, a major transfer point! Guess the buses were getting in the way of “vehicles”, and of course the convenience of vehicle drivers is much more important than bus riders. Meanswhile, service on the West 7th/Randolph and Grand routes has been slashed, from every 15 minutes to every 20 minutes on the Randolph, and from every 15 minutes to every 30 minutes on the Grand.
The problem is, “important” people do not ride the bus. I also suspect some of the people who run Metro Transit and are on the Metro Council have never ridden a bus in their lives! They just don’t care.
We as bus drivers don,t have a say, but we get to take the abuse,I am sorry that this has happened, we are the last ones they will listen to, I myself try to accomodate our passingers in any way we can, for the ones that are hard to ride with I can say they have been here 30 years and hate it now, but they are holding on so they recieve their retirement. It,s sad we have to work untill 65 now, When I retire,in another 15 years the age limit will be 75, then I,ll have to work another 10 years, I will give you some advice, As our BRASS tells us ridership is our goal,so……..If every one started calling and e-Mailing your disappointment about what they have done, They get to raise bus fare but what do you get in return? they will start doing something, they are relying on you as riders to ride regardless what decisions they make, Demand more police, demand some service, or you will car pool, they will listen to you, but if they only here from 5 people on a route out of how many riders daily? We as drivers try to complain about things for our customers,but they don,t take us seriously , because we are the bottom feeders of the system, and yet who do you see? US! most all of us are a 100% with you, lets work on this,
Diane, do you want to weigh-in on the bus driver vs. pedestrian comments from Monday, May 7th?
Fill me in on that one, I went back to look for something written on that, Is it in a different catagory?
Diane,
Go to:
http://www.startribune.com/blogs/roadguy/?p=264
“Mailbag: Nicollet Mall…”
Read what about the busdrivers almost running pedestrians over in the crosswalks.
