Choose your poison: Bus exhaust, or singing?
Posted on May 31st, 2007 – 6:10 AMBy Roadguy
With all the transportation news going on, Roadguy has fallen a bit behind on his correspondence. Last week, alert reader Mary sent in this question:
When is Nicollet Mall opening back up for buses? I see quite a few older and handicapped residents using the bus to get from apartments just south of downtown to Target, Walgreens, and all the other stores along the mall. Right now, they have to either walk down the mall or walk up from Hennepin, which can be a trek the farther south you go.
As if by magic, two days after the e-mail arrived, the Mall reopened to bus traffic. (Metro Transit’s news release is here.) But Mary, who first got us talking about Nicollet Mall a few weeks ago in this post, had more to say:
I do hope that they aren’t going to keep buses off the Mall to placate the handful of folks dining al fresco. I saw the same people busing every day; you walk past the restaurants, and there’s always different people there, and most of the day the tables are empty. If they don’t like the fumes or noise, eat inside. Eat outside, you have birds flying over, bugs attacking your lunch, etc….
And there’s much worse noise pollution than the buses … there was a guy on Nicollet playing his guitar and singing about Jerry Falwell:
Jerry Falwell is dead
Let the joyous news be spread
Mr. Falwell has died
Spread the good news far and wide
What is that smell?
Mr. Falwell burns in hell
There’s no pearly gate
For someone who spewed such hate
He was singing LOUDLY as I passed the Crate & Barrel on the way to Target, and was still singing the same song when I was on my way back to work. The folks at the nearby restaurants must have been tearing out their hair after about the third time around.
Roadguy doesn’t have any hair to tear out, but he thinks Mary might have a point. He also knows there are differing views on what Nicollet Mall is for — this past weekend, Strib architecture writer Linda Mack wrote about the challenging mix; click here for text and video.
Linda’s commentary declined to weigh in on the extent to which painfully repetitive lyrics might diminish the urban experience, but you can weigh in below with any thoughts and tales about getting around downtown. And feel free to share your views on yesterday’s Star Tribune letter of the day, which tackled the pressing issue of whether Hennepin Avenue, not Nicollet, is Minneapolis’ signature street.
24 Responses to "Choose your poison: Bus exhaust, or singing?"
Why not build a bus tunnel a la Seattle with a few stations at key intersections (where E-W buses cross) and turn the surface into a pedestrian mall? It would make the surface something akin to Boston’s Downtown Crossing (ok, sort of) and hopefully speed up the bus travel time through downtown (which is painfully slow around rush hours).
Seattle was burned down in 1889, after which they rebuilt the city *on top* of the ruins. This is where the space occupied by the bus tunnel originated.
Minneapolis would have to dig, which would be outrageously expensive. Streetcars or electric buses would be better options.
If we have a curfew for under 17 year old people..why can’t their be a curfew instituted for outdoor performers…say a 23.5 hour curfew? Or a nuisance law?
I thought the Mall was supposed to be a pedestrian experience. I am a diner there, and the buses are extremely annoying, especially at 5 pm. I am all for rerouting to Hennepin or Second Av S. If not, why shouldn’t we open up Nicollet to regular auto traffic?
There’s a thought–lets burn the entire greater Minneapolis/St. Paul area to the ground and just start over again!
Kidding aside, I walk up and down Nicollet Mall every day for lunch from Washington Ave down to 6th. Up until this week, it had been a very nice walk. Nevermind the garbage on the sidewalks or the lady who never seems to move from in front of Neiman-Marcus.
But with the buses back, my lunch time walk is definately less enjoyable. Sometimes there are 2 and 3 waiting at a stoplight; feels more like walking down Marquette at 5:00 with all the commuter buses lined up than a pedestrian mall in the middle of the day. I agree with some of the other postings that have advocated a bus free mall. My dream would be to see half the road for bikers and a free electric trolley that would stop at each block to ferry people up and down the mall (businesses located on the mall would be the ones paying for this trolley, which would benefit their business). Very similar to downtown Denver, which has huge crowds of people during the day.
I mostly enjoy the street performers’ music… I can’t imagine hearing someone sing the same lyrics over and over, no matter how amazingly TRUE they are! 
Anyway, it’s nice to hear some instrumental music if you’re outside eating lunch. Singing, not so much.
On the topic of busses, it seems that with very little effort we should be able to put something…SOMETHING…on them to eliminate the utter noxious fricking fumes they exhale. The lack of evolution of engines that transport us baffles me.
I will save a related “Why do people with vehicles propelled by stinky diesel engines leave them running all the time, will the vehicle collapse into a miniblackhole if the key is turned to the “off” position?” question for a later thread.
I would much prefer the mall being changed into a non-motor area similar to the Lincoln Mall in the South Beach area of Miami Beach.
There are enough cross streets to have busses dropping people off near their locations. If it becomes popular enough set up a loop that shuttles people to various locations in downtown from the main bus routes.
Hey, the busses were to all be hybrid-based circulators until the no-taxes people scoffed at a bus without fares. The idea was to bring commuters to those (expensive to build, I’m guessing) transit hubs on the edge of town and transfer to the bus home.
There are honestly too many express routes to have them all go downtown without changing something.
botski: they used to have something on buses to stop the noxious disel fumes. They were long metal poles that contacted wires overhead. They called the whole contraption a ‘trolley’ or ’street car.’
Unfortunately GM dismantled those in the 30’s and 40’s with their ‘great’ invention–the city bus!
The noise and fumes of the buses are the real issue - the buses themselves and the mobility they provide are part of what makes the Mall what it is. Rather than displacing them and their ridership, they should be updated with cleaner, quieter models. These are the type of buses running up and down the pedestrian mall in Denver, and nobody seems to mind!
botski: “Why do people with vehicles propelled by stinky diesel engines leave them running all the time, will the vehicle collapse into a miniblackhole if the key is turned to the “off” position?”
Ha Ha, I’ve made similar observations- oh, about 100,000 times. :rolleyes: My guess was that it’s damn hard to hand crank that big diesel over so they are loathe to shut it off. Or, it doesn’t have a starter so finding someone to help them pull- or push-start it is a big hassle. It couldn’t possibly be as easy as turning the key “off” when you park and “on” when you go, could it?!?
I have seen people let their diesels idle ALL DAY LONG in cold weather, no exaggeration! I say put a winter front on it and start it every 4 hours or so if you’re that worried.
Yeah, the buses completely ruin the Nicollet Mall experience, in my opinion. As others have suggested, hybrids, electric trolleybuses, or streetcars would be a welcome change.
As for the diesel fumes themselves, yes, there is finally some effort being made to mitigate that. Things are already a lot better due to advancements over the last decade or so, plus the arrival in late 2006 of ultra-low-sulfur diesel which won’t clog up catalytic converters like the old fuel did. Some new regulations came down at the beginning of this year, and big diesels should continue getting better over the next few years as more emissions regulations come into effect.
The fuel injection systems are improving, which has one benefit of making the engines quieter. Well, common rail injection is quieting down small diesels in Mercedes, BMWs, and Volkswagens, so I certainly hope that technology translates on a larger scale, but I can’t be 100% certain that it will.
Unfortunately, it’ll take another decade for Metro Transit to replace much of their fleet with cleaner vehicles, though maybe some exhaust systems can be retrofitted with cats and particulate traps. Of course, increasing the ratio of biodiesel in the fuel could help too (and the restaurants might enjoy that since the exhaust smells more like a fryer, which would probably make people hungry and increase their business 
“And feel free to share your views on yesterday’s Star Tribune letter of the day, which tackled the pressing issue of whether Hennepin Avenue, not Nicollet, is Minneapolis’ signature street.”
All depends on your point of view and what you like. Me? I liked the Nicollet mall BEFORE they remodeled it. It’s more blah and barren now than it was before they ripped out all of the mature trees and replaced them with non-hardy trees that died a year or so after the remodeling.
It reminds me of the debate following the “redo” of the Midway at the state fair. Some people like the new, cleaner more “family friendly” atmosphere while another group of people lament the loss of the slightly seedier, racier aspects of the original, with the freak shows and such, and say the new one is too antiseptic. Those same people probably like Hennepin Ave more than the Nicollet mall.
Nicollet Mall was built for buses. Why should they be forced to leave Nicollet Mall on summer nights? That completely defeats the purpose of it. It was built to reduce bus conjestion in Downtown, not for suburbanites to come Downtown and complain about the buses. Jeez, maybe you should go put all the restaurants in the Skyway, then DT Minneapolis will be as dead as Saint Paul.
Ok, but maybe a compromise can be made where they are electric and don’t stink or make as much noise. LA and NY have these types all over the place. Nicollet Mall would be a great place to start using them.
I’m sorry, but all of you people who whine about buses ‘ruining the experience’ of nicollet mall, I think you’re forgetting that it’s a transit mall. Yes, “transit” like buses, not like outdoor dining. I’d love a pedestrian road just as much as some of you, but moving the buses to Hennepin is a huge hassle for bus commuters, which most of you seem to obviously not be. Yes, have a lovely stroll back to the parking ramp after your sidewalk cafe happy hour, but some of us actually use those buses you seem to think are such a party-pooper.
Re: Diesel engines running
Diesel engines are a different beast altogether than gasoline. Idling is very wasteful in a gas engine. Not so in Diesel. Diesel engines use next to no fuel unless they are accelerating or turning over. It actually uses more fuel to start a big rig than it does to leave it idling for long periods of time.
Also, one of the drawbacks to diesel is that cold weather can cause it to gel, which can break an engine down. Leaving the engine running while parked prevents this.
Among fossil fuels, diesel is actually one of the most environmentally sound options for a number of reasons. While the exhaust is stinky, it is actually relatively clean. The new particulate standards help a LOT with that. Also, diesel engines are generally more efficient than gasoline. They run at lower temperatures, which reduces wear and tear, which gives them a lifespan 5-10 times longer than a gas engine. This reduces the environmental footprint of such vehicles considerably. Lastly, Diesel can actually be produced from non-petroleum sources, which means it can help us move away from fossil fuels with minimal changes to the business model.
All of that said, it doesn’t mean that it belongs on the mall.
As pointed out above, when the Nicollet Mall was built in the 60s, it was designed specifically FOR buses (and pedestrians). The outdoor dining has only been around since the 90s. Having buses on the mall was, and is, convenient to those who use them. The auto-addicted just wouldn’t get it.
Yes, it would be great if we could restore trolleys back to Nicollet, as it had up until the 50s when deisel buses replaced them. But until then, leave the buses on the Mall. The needs of the thousands of Mall bus riders (and the others who benefit from these commuters’ smart transportation choices)should be given higher priority than the “needs” of restuarant owners and their patrons.
Yeah, diesels can idle quite efficiently, but they don’t exactly idle on pixie dust. A comparably-sized diesel might use 1/4th or 1/6th as much fuel as a gasoline engine to idle, but if you’re at a standstill, the most efficient position is off. Using an oversized starter motor can alleviate the normal starting losses, especially if the engine is warm. I’m not sure how well it works on big engines, but small diesel cars with stop-start systems have seen fuel economy boosts of 5-10%. It’s half the reason the 2008 Mini Cooper D (unfortunately only available to our European friends) boosted its fuel economy from 55 mpg to 60 (the other half comes from the mind-numbingly simple concept of disengaging the alternator unless you’re braking or going downhill, combined with a better battery).
What would be the reason for only offering the 2008 Mini Cooper D to Europe, where emission, energy, and environmental standards are higher, than offering it here, where we desperately need all the help we can get? Who’s calling the shots? Offer it and let the free market system sort itself out.
Ben: “Diesel engines use next to no fuel unless they are accelerating or turning over. It actually uses more fuel to start a big rig than it does to leave it idling for long periods of time.
Also, one of the drawbacks to diesel is that cold weather can cause it to gel, which can break an engine down. Leaving the engine running while parked prevents this.”
Ben, it looks like you need to research diesel ops. How can starting use more fuel than idling? It’s physically impossible. Also things have changed in the last 20 years; fuel systems are much better at preventing gelling than they used to be.
So when you park it, shut the damn thing off!
Ben’s statement that it takes more fuel to start a big rig than let it run, even if true, will eventually be false if the engine is left running too long, ‘cuz eventually the rig’s going to run out of fuel. So if he could amend his statement and tell us at which point in time an idling engine will use as much fuel as it would have taken to restart the rig, I’d love to know.
Don’t take Ben’s or my word for it. There’s been lots of research and documentation on diesel idling; here’s just a few links:
*best link, from undisputed engine expert!* http://busbuilding.com/bus-conversion/diesel-engine-idling-from-an-authority-detroit-diesel/
http://www.state.in.us/idem/programs/air/vipchallenge/myths.html
http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/department/newslett.nsf/all/agin9309
Web searches are easy!
SHUT IT OFF!!!
