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	<title>Comments on: Gas taxes: Ads at the pump? A federal holiday?</title>
	<link>http://blogs2.startribune.com/blogs/roadguy/2008/04/29/gas-taxes-ads-at-the-pump-a-federal-holiday/</link>
	<description>Travel along with our transportation geek</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 12:40:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: MJ</title>
		<link>http://blogs2.startribune.com/blogs/roadguy/2008/04/29/gas-taxes-ads-at-the-pump-a-federal-holiday/#comment-13366</link>
		<dc:creator>MJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 23:54:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs2.startribune.com/blogs/roadguy/2008/04/29/gas-taxes-ads-at-the-pump-a-federal-holiday/#comment-13366</guid>
		<description>I see that the state's municipal liquor stores are once again posting &lt;i&gt;record profits&lt;i&gt;.

http://www.startribune.com/local/18408024.html

Windfall profits tax, anyone?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see that the state&#8217;s municipal liquor stores are once again posting <i>record profits</i><i>.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.startribune.com/local/18408024.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.startribune.com/local/18408024.html</a></p>
<p>Windfall profits tax, anyone?</i></p>
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		<title>By: Green Mountain Boy</title>
		<link>http://blogs2.startribune.com/blogs/roadguy/2008/04/29/gas-taxes-ads-at-the-pump-a-federal-holiday/#comment-13348</link>
		<dc:creator>Green Mountain Boy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 15:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs2.startribune.com/blogs/roadguy/2008/04/29/gas-taxes-ads-at-the-pump-a-federal-holiday/#comment-13348</guid>
		<description>Prof. S -

You say that electric cars are not necessarily better for the environment, as you are shifting from tailpipe to smokestack.  While it is true that you are just shifting where the energy originates, it should be noted that it is far easier to mitigate the environmental impact of a single large source of pollutants than many small sources.

Additionally, as you tangentially elude to, there is the benefit of flexibility.  By shifting to other less polluting energy sources like nuclear, solar, or wind, you can make a very large difference in environmental costs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prof. S -</p>
<p>You say that electric cars are not necessarily better for the environment, as you are shifting from tailpipe to smokestack.  While it is true that you are just shifting where the energy originates, it should be noted that it is far easier to mitigate the environmental impact of a single large source of pollutants than many small sources.</p>
<p>Additionally, as you tangentially elude to, there is the benefit of flexibility.  By shifting to other less polluting energy sources like nuclear, solar, or wind, you can make a very large difference in environmental costs.</p>
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		<title>By: Prof. S.</title>
		<link>http://blogs2.startribune.com/blogs/roadguy/2008/04/29/gas-taxes-ads-at-the-pump-a-federal-holiday/#comment-13339</link>
		<dc:creator>Prof. S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 21:57:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs2.startribune.com/blogs/roadguy/2008/04/29/gas-taxes-ads-at-the-pump-a-federal-holiday/#comment-13339</guid>
		<description>In light of Alex B.'s post, I should clarify my position as I do not know that it was entirely clear.

It's not that I oppose capital or infrastructure improvements.  Quite the contrary.  I'm a big supporter of large projects (from stadiums to LRT).  I do not think that this money &lt;i&gt;needs&lt;/i&gt; to come from a new tax when there are plenty of old taxes being misallocated now.  

Along those same lines, it's refreshing to hear other people complain about the tax rebate.  Imagine we spent that rebate on LRT lines.  We could pretty much pay for the CC for the amount of money to pay for stimulus checks in the metro area.  Do the math.  Roughly 3-3.5 million people x's $300 = $9MM-$1.05B.  Instead, we'll ship it overseas by way of federal debt and cheap electronics.

Couple of other points:

1.) Glad others see the value in major gas tax increases offset by other cuts.

2.) Electric cars are not necessarily better for the environment (and are worse in states w/o much nuclear or renewable power), since they shift CO2 production from the tailpipe to the power plant (which usually runs on coal).

3.) Remember that the advantage of high prices is that it encourages innovation to new sources.  For example, scientists have already figured out how to make unlimited gas using airborn carbon for rougly $4.50/gal. (and less with the right technology).  Such a plan would be carbon-neutral and avoid engine conversion costs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In light of Alex B.&#8217;s post, I should clarify my position as I do not know that it was entirely clear.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not that I oppose capital or infrastructure improvements.  Quite the contrary.  I&#8217;m a big supporter of large projects (from stadiums to LRT).  I do not think that this money <i>needs</i> to come from a new tax when there are plenty of old taxes being misallocated now.  </p>
<p>Along those same lines, it&#8217;s refreshing to hear other people complain about the tax rebate.  Imagine we spent that rebate on LRT lines.  We could pretty much pay for the CC for the amount of money to pay for stimulus checks in the metro area.  Do the math.  Roughly 3-3.5 million people x&#8217;s $300 = $9MM-$1.05B.  Instead, we&#8217;ll ship it overseas by way of federal debt and cheap electronics.</p>
<p>Couple of other points:</p>
<p>1.) Glad others see the value in major gas tax increases offset by other cuts.</p>
<p>2.) Electric cars are not necessarily better for the environment (and are worse in states w/o much nuclear or renewable power), since they shift CO2 production from the tailpipe to the power plant (which usually runs on coal).</p>
<p>3.) Remember that the advantage of high prices is that it encourages innovation to new sources.  For example, scientists have already figured out how to make unlimited gas using airborn carbon for rougly $4.50/gal. (and less with the right technology).  Such a plan would be carbon-neutral and avoid engine conversion costs.</p>
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		<title>By: Snowman</title>
		<link>http://blogs2.startribune.com/blogs/roadguy/2008/04/29/gas-taxes-ads-at-the-pump-a-federal-holiday/#comment-13338</link>
		<dc:creator>Snowman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 21:34:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs2.startribune.com/blogs/roadguy/2008/04/29/gas-taxes-ads-at-the-pump-a-federal-holiday/#comment-13338</guid>
		<description>I'm glad to see that the gas tax holiday is not gaining much traction here in Roadguy-land.  I hope there are other sane fiscal folks around the country who don't like this idea either.

Hillary's suggestion is particularly fatuous.  She says she'll pay for the holiday with a windfall profits tax on big oil.  Well, two problems with that.  1) 49 Senate votes (at least) will kill any big tax on big oil, and 2) much of big oil is now off-shore of the US and the reach of the IRS.  Think BP or Royal Dutch Shell would show much U.S. based profit it Hill's idea were enacted?

Oh, by the way, to whoever suggested ANWAR - it'll only ever supply a few percentage points of total daily BBLS of oil on the world market, so even full development of that field would maybe drop world prices a few dollars per BBL.  

We MAY just want to keep that oil in the ground for a few more decades so that we have SOMETHING more of a strategic reserve left when we, the Chinese and the Indians have driven through all the rest of the world supply.  (Our cute little official Strategic Petroleum Reserve in the salt domes of Louisiana is really only there to make some back-up jet fuel for fighters and some diesel for a few Abrams tanks in case the end-times bunker-defense takes a long time).

Sorry for the cynicism.   It's been a bad day for prudence in government (read about our Dem's giving tens of millions to private developers in Bloomington elsewhere @ Strib)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m glad to see that the gas tax holiday is not gaining much traction here in Roadguy-land.  I hope there are other sane fiscal folks around the country who don&#8217;t like this idea either.</p>
<p>Hillary&#8217;s suggestion is particularly fatuous.  She says she&#8217;ll pay for the holiday with a windfall profits tax on big oil.  Well, two problems with that.  1) 49 Senate votes (at least) will kill any big tax on big oil, and 2) much of big oil is now off-shore of the US and the reach of the IRS.  Think BP or Royal Dutch Shell would show much U.S. based profit it Hill&#8217;s idea were enacted?</p>
<p>Oh, by the way, to whoever suggested ANWAR - it&#8217;ll only ever supply a few percentage points of total daily BBLS of oil on the world market, so even full development of that field would maybe drop world prices a few dollars per BBL.  </p>
<p>We MAY just want to keep that oil in the ground for a few more decades so that we have SOMETHING more of a strategic reserve left when we, the Chinese and the Indians have driven through all the rest of the world supply.  (Our cute little official Strategic Petroleum Reserve in the salt domes of Louisiana is really only there to make some back-up jet fuel for fighters and some diesel for a few Abrams tanks in case the end-times bunker-defense takes a long time).</p>
<p>Sorry for the cynicism.   It&#8217;s been a bad day for prudence in government (read about our Dem&#8217;s giving tens of millions to private developers in Bloomington elsewhere @ Strib)</p>
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		<title>By: bsimon</title>
		<link>http://blogs2.startribune.com/blogs/roadguy/2008/04/29/gas-taxes-ads-at-the-pump-a-federal-holiday/#comment-13333</link>
		<dc:creator>bsimon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 19:19:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs2.startribune.com/blogs/roadguy/2008/04/29/gas-taxes-ads-at-the-pump-a-federal-holiday/#comment-13333</guid>
		<description>SeanG writes
"Electric cars come with neat concept: By powering your car with electricity, the energy source for your car is abstracted and can be changed."

I'm toying with the idea of putting solar panels on the roof &#38; buying a neighborhood electric vehicle for commuting.  In theory, for roughly the price of a high-mid range new car, I can eliminate fuel costs.  Good idea or pie-in-the-sky?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SeanG writes<br />
&#8220;Electric cars come with neat concept: By powering your car with electricity, the energy source for your car is abstracted and can be changed.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m toying with the idea of putting solar panels on the roof &amp; buying a neighborhood electric vehicle for commuting.  In theory, for roughly the price of a high-mid range new car, I can eliminate fuel costs.  Good idea or pie-in-the-sky?</p>
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		<title>By: Joe G</title>
		<link>http://blogs2.startribune.com/blogs/roadguy/2008/04/29/gas-taxes-ads-at-the-pump-a-federal-holiday/#comment-13332</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 18:51:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs2.startribune.com/blogs/roadguy/2008/04/29/gas-taxes-ads-at-the-pump-a-federal-holiday/#comment-13332</guid>
		<description>So, by Mr. Mapston's logic, we should get "government out of the way and prices will stabilize".... Does this include the billions of dollars per year that we spend on maintaining a military presence in the middle east to protect the supply on behalf of the oil companies?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, by Mr. Mapston&#8217;s logic, we should get &#8220;government out of the way and prices will stabilize&#8221;&#8230;. Does this include the billions of dollars per year that we spend on maintaining a military presence in the middle east to protect the supply on behalf of the oil companies?</p>
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		<title>By: SeanG</title>
		<link>http://blogs2.startribune.com/blogs/roadguy/2008/04/29/gas-taxes-ads-at-the-pump-a-federal-holiday/#comment-13331</link>
		<dc:creator>SeanG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 18:10:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs2.startribune.com/blogs/roadguy/2008/04/29/gas-taxes-ads-at-the-pump-a-federal-holiday/#comment-13331</guid>
		<description>Update: The Chevy Volt may be coming out in 2010: &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt#Production_plans" rel="nofollow"&gt;Wikipedia source&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Update: The Chevy Volt may be coming out in 2010: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt#Production_plans" rel="nofollow">Wikipedia source</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: SeanG</title>
		<link>http://blogs2.startribune.com/blogs/roadguy/2008/04/29/gas-taxes-ads-at-the-pump-a-federal-holiday/#comment-13330</link>
		<dc:creator>SeanG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 18:08:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs2.startribune.com/blogs/roadguy/2008/04/29/gas-taxes-ads-at-the-pump-a-federal-holiday/#comment-13330</guid>
		<description>I don't feel too trusting of global oil supplies.

When the heck is the &lt;a href="http://www.chevrolet.com/electriccar/" rel="nofollow"&gt;Chevy Volt&lt;/a&gt; gonna come out?  I bet I'd get one of those.

Electric cars come with neat concept: By powering your car with electricity, the energy source for your car is abstracted and can be changed.  So today your car may be nuclear-powered, and tomorrow it may be fusion-powered.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t feel too trusting of global oil supplies.</p>
<p>When the heck is the <a href="http://www.chevrolet.com/electriccar/" rel="nofollow">Chevy Volt</a> gonna come out?  I bet I&#8217;d get one of those.</p>
<p>Electric cars come with neat concept: By powering your car with electricity, the energy source for your car is abstracted and can be changed.  So today your car may be nuclear-powered, and tomorrow it may be fusion-powered.</p>
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		<title>By: beaarthur</title>
		<link>http://blogs2.startribune.com/blogs/roadguy/2008/04/29/gas-taxes-ads-at-the-pump-a-federal-holiday/#comment-13329</link>
		<dc:creator>beaarthur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 18:00:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs2.startribune.com/blogs/roadguy/2008/04/29/gas-taxes-ads-at-the-pump-a-federal-holiday/#comment-13329</guid>
		<description>After reading Mapston's comment, I'm looking forward even more to paying $7.00 a gallon (hopefully all taxes) to drive to my French-speaking, elite windsurfing weekend off Cape Cod this summer with John Kerry and Paul Krugman, at which we will all talk about how much us snooty folks hate freedom, America, and Nascar.  I will personally sneer at anyone in a vehicle that gets less than 30 mpg...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After reading Mapston&#8217;s comment, I&#8217;m looking forward even more to paying $7.00 a gallon (hopefully all taxes) to drive to my French-speaking, elite windsurfing weekend off Cape Cod this summer with John Kerry and Paul Krugman, at which we will all talk about how much us snooty folks hate freedom, America, and Nascar.  I will personally sneer at anyone in a vehicle that gets less than 30 mpg&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://blogs2.startribune.com/blogs/roadguy/2008/04/29/gas-taxes-ads-at-the-pump-a-federal-holiday/#comment-13328</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 17:59:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs2.startribune.com/blogs/roadguy/2008/04/29/gas-taxes-ads-at-the-pump-a-federal-holiday/#comment-13328</guid>
		<description>Wow, I'm impressed with rational discussion here against horrid political pandering.

I've long supported the political unacceptable solution of a steep increase in the gasoline excise tax, like increasing $0.50/year for 5 years! If we had started that 10 years ago perhaps we'd be 10 steps closer to transitioning away from gasoline for fuel and we wouldn't need to subsidize ethanol production. It could stand on its own (or not) without the tax.

It is still hard for me to simply reject the "I feel your pain" BS of being a political candidate. I'm a citizen who has lived 3 years without a car, so I DON'T feel your pain - those of you who must drive 20,000/year to survive.

If higher fuel taxes are political deadends, and we still need to lower consumption to match supply, then the only other solution I know is rationing - via fuel coupons. It was avoided in the 1970's, but I have to think it's the only politically defendable solution now. 

Give every person with a driver's license vouchers for say 25 gallons/month for fuel, and let the free market take over. Not having a car, I'll auction my vouchers on EBAY, or be a true-blue environmentalist and throw them away! Anyone who needs more can pay for it, and poor people who can live with less fuel, can also auction their surpluses. 

I can see how it would be hard to properly scale how many vouchers to give out, and perhaps some regions of the country have higher driving needs. Rural Montana residents would have a higher gasoline need than NYC. 

Everything is messy, and nothing is fair, but if we don't face the coming liquid fuel crisis now, it'll be that much harder later, assuming it isn't already too late to make any difference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, I&#8217;m impressed with rational discussion here against horrid political pandering.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve long supported the political unacceptable solution of a steep increase in the gasoline excise tax, like increasing $0.50/year for 5 years! If we had started that 10 years ago perhaps we&#8217;d be 10 steps closer to transitioning away from gasoline for fuel and we wouldn&#8217;t need to subsidize ethanol production. It could stand on its own (or not) without the tax.</p>
<p>It is still hard for me to simply reject the &#8220;I feel your pain&#8221; BS of being a political candidate. I&#8217;m a citizen who has lived 3 years without a car, so I DON&#8217;T feel your pain - those of you who must drive 20,000/year to survive.</p>
<p>If higher fuel taxes are political deadends, and we still need to lower consumption to match supply, then the only other solution I know is rationing - via fuel coupons. It was avoided in the 1970&#8217;s, but I have to think it&#8217;s the only politically defendable solution now. </p>
<p>Give every person with a driver&#8217;s license vouchers for say 25 gallons/month for fuel, and let the free market take over. Not having a car, I&#8217;ll auction my vouchers on EBAY, or be a true-blue environmentalist and throw them away! Anyone who needs more can pay for it, and poor people who can live with less fuel, can also auction their surpluses. </p>
<p>I can see how it would be hard to properly scale how many vouchers to give out, and perhaps some regions of the country have higher driving needs. Rural Montana residents would have a higher gasoline need than NYC. </p>
<p>Everything is messy, and nothing is fair, but if we don&#8217;t face the coming liquid fuel crisis now, it&#8217;ll be that much harder later, assuming it isn&#8217;t already too late to make any difference.</p>
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