Liriano: Rotation, bullpen or Rochester?
Posted on February 20th, 2008 – 12:32 AMBy Howard
A couple of people disagreed with my contention that Francisco Liriano may well start the season in Rochester or the bullpen. I hope they’re right and I’m wrong, but here’s what led to my caution:
*This isn’t Joe Mays. Liriano was 3rd in Rookie of the Year voting in 2006 and sizzled to a 12-3 record in 16 starts that seem like they were years ago instead of the season before last. If he shows anything less than full readiness, I expect the Twins to bring him along very, very slowly under conditions where every move isn’t open to everyone’s scrutiny. He could stay behind in Florida or work with the Cliburn brothers in Rochester.
*The benefit of any management doubt won’t go to Liriano, if only because he wasn’t forthcoming about the pain he was feeling in 2006, finally ‘fessing up after his two-inning finale on a weekday afternoon against Oakland. I don’t blame Liriano for thinking he could pitch through that pain, but neither would I fault the Twins for erring on the side of skepticism.
*Missing the first week of camp puts Liriano that much further behind schedule and behind the rest of the staff. It may not seem like a huge deal, but spring training has become a carefully scripted exercise — and missing several chances to throw during the first week puts a guy who hasn’t thrown under game conditions for 17 months at that much more of a disadvantage.
*There’s no shortage of candidates for the five spots in the rotation and I have to think the prospect of the Twins’ ace of the near future waiting for someone to falter would be pretty good incentive for the chosen ones to stay sharp. Having Liriano nipping at your heels is a bit more motivating than, say, knowing that Zach Day may be in line to take your spot.
What I’m thinking is the kind of drama that makes spring training worth the time and effort to follow. In other sports, with the possible exception of pro football, the preseason feels like a below-the-radar waste of time. Trying to figure out what’s going to happen with Liriano, almost six weeks before the first real pitch of the season is thrown, is one of the things that makes baseball the best of sports.
Yes, even better than curling.
41 Responses to "Liriano: Rotation, bullpen or Rochester?"
The real question isn’t whether he’ll start the season in the rotation; the real question is how many of us will care about the Twins if he doesn’t???
The Twins teeter on a PR nightmare as it is. Can they downplay the losses of Johan and Torii enough to receive forgiveness from the fans for more dismantling and cheapo tactics? Sure. How?
By giving us Liriano every fifth day.
I noticed, in 2006, that people around here get more excited watching this guy pitch than they ever have watching Johan. For whatever reason, he captures our wildest imagination as baseball fans. And, as patient, “understanding” fans, we better damn-well get Liriano in the rotation, rusty or not. Truth be told, 80% of him is twice as good as the best Boof has to offer.
This one’s really a no-brainer for an organization desperate for good PR.
Liriano has a spot coming out of Spring Training.
*sigh*
“I’m pissed, give me Liriano, I don’t care if he’s ready or not.”
Terrible, terrible logic.
This one’s really a no-brainer for an organization desperate for good PR.
And then what will PR have to say if Liriano blows his arm out once and for all because he was rushed back when he wasn’t quite ready? You know, like Mark Prior or Kerry Wood?
I’d rather see them take some extra time to make sure Liriano’s back at full. Then put him out there. Because I’d prefer Liriano’s Twins career be more than just a half season and then a destroyed elbow.
And as far as caring if the Twins don’t put Liriano in the rotation. I will care. Because I want to see Young, Harris, and Gomez.
Oh and…YAY CURLING! It’s my Winter Olympics guilty pleasure.
Start Liriano for 80 pitches, and put Perkins in for 30-40 pitches after that. Perkins would then be able to build his strength from that, and 120 pitches should get us into the 7th inning of those games.
we need a blog on curling because I just don’t get it.
Fans like Lala are the reason I despise the average baseball fan. They don’t understand the little things or the big picture. This isn’t little league baseball or fantasy baseball, as T pointed out, look what happened to Wood and Prior. I understand that some decisions are based on financial reasons but whether or not a guy coming back from injury starts should not be done because of money. As a real fan I could care less about the PR, I might be in the minority but I’m okay with Liriano only pitching 120 innings this year as long as he is 100% healthy for 2009 when this team might actually have a chance to compete.
The Twins have about a month of spring training to see where Liriano is at before they have to make a decision. Rick Anderson has said the signs of recovery are good so far, but that much of what’s left is the mental aspect and being able to “let go” with the usual assortment of pitches.
No offense to AAA hitters, but I think Liriano could be successful in a minor league assignment without pushing that mental aspect. I think the only way of truly testing that is against major-league hitters and that means he has to prove to himself and everyone else that he is back to form, physically and mentally, as Bert would say “at the major-league level.” And you can’t do that in Rochester.
Again, I expect that he will be in the rotation, but also expect to see a lot of 5 1/3 IP in his lines for a good while.
What the heck?
My last comment didn’t show up, I tried to reprint it, and it says that duplicate posts can’t show up or some such nonsense.
That’s the new “bad post” filter.
Is there any other organization with a better track record at evaluating talent than the twins? Trust management and support our Twins!
Here’s a link to a curling blog. (Are we having a Randball day, or what?
If Liriano is the *only* reason you’re excited about the Twins this year, then you haven’t been paying attention.
Yes, Liriano is exciting. However, part of the beauty of baseball is that there are six months of games. Rather than immediate gratification, it’s about being competitive over the long haul. Pushing Liriano too fast doesn’t make sense. Giving him a chance to be fully ready is better in the long run for everyone.
Thumpin
1. Boston
2. A’s
3. D’Backs
Do you want more? The Twins aren’t that great at evaluating talent, they are good at evaluating pitchers.
Liriano should start the season in the rotation, either with the Twins or in Rochester. That enables the organization to put him on a regular work schedule, build up his endurance, and get him back (hopefully) to where he was in ‘06. If he goes to Rochester it should be because - and only because - he isn’t ready to throw big-league stuff for at least 5 innings every 5 days. Otherwise, he doesn’t have anything else to prove at the AAA level.
And if you need Liriano - healthy or not - in the rotation to be interested in watching the Twins this year, you could find some bright, shiny objects to hold your attention as an alternative…. or, go watch the Yankees. They have a “star” at every position to hold your interest, and then you can come back and watch the playoffs on TV along with the Twins fans this year.
I stand by my comment from the prior thread. If he’s throwing pain-free, the only reason to have him start the year in Rochester or the bullpen would be if he’s not showing the control he needs. That can come from all the time off and you won’t really know until he’s throwing in game situations against major league hitters.
If he’s pain free, has his velocity and control back, he’s in the Twins’ rotation working with a limited pitch count for a while.
I hear Rick Anderson state on PA and Dubay last week that Liriano would be in the rotation - he didn’t say where - becasue 1) he’s a starter and 2) it’s so much easier to control him with pitch counts and regular workouts/bullpen sessions inbetween. Sounded like him being with the Twins was a no-brainer, even if those pitch counts are low at first. Also, Anderson went back to saying he’d be working with some things on his delivery (ie, to make it less violent), which contrasts a bit with what Anderson was saying last fall, IIRC.
Do we know how his visa situation stands? Is he on his way to Florida yet? Any idea of his ETA?
I’m with JimCrikket. If he’s pain free and not too rusty he should be starting in the Bigs. He’ll be pitching every 5th day down in Rochester anyway so he might as well get real game experience while he’s doing it.
Pat
It sounds like Liriano won’t be able to get to camp before Friday at the earliest. Kind of a joke if you ask me. He should have had all this stuff figured out a month ago. I would guess with him missing the first week that his first couple of starts will be in AAA and then the Twins will go from there.
What about going with a 6-man starting rotations this year? We have plenty of candidates of which only one has ever gone over 200 innings. To be honest, they all need to work on their endurance until they can pitch 200 major league innings. I think a 6 man rotations would be good for everyone, except for Livan who of course gets bonuses for the number of innings he pitches.
A six man rotation means you have one less bullpen arm and you would end up overworking the guys in the pen, especially when all but one of those 6 guys in the rotation are young and are likely to get knocked out of a game early from time to time.
Thanks, jama. I was hoping he had magically worked out his visa issues and was on a plane to Florida as we speak. I remember reading that Thursday is the best case scenario though so I knew that wasn’t the case, but a guy can dream…
Robert-
I like it. Except that I want Liriano throwing every 5 days to build up strength. Otherwise, I think that would be good for our young guys.
No offense to AAA hitters, but I think Liriano could be successful in a minor league assignment without pushing that mental aspect.
That’s why missing some of ST is a bit of a hinder. He’ll be facing MLB players (including a number of chances to pitch against teams like Boston)
The game are meaningless, but you can bet the hitters are going to be testing their abilities as well. If he can do well in ST against some MLB players then bring him up with the rest of the team in April.
I don’t think missing a few days of spring training is that big a deal. I would think Cisco can still get his workouts in; he’ll just do them in the Dominican for a bit longer than originally planned, instead of Florida. He’ll still have plenty of time to prepare for his first ST start under Anderson and staff.
It will be good to have him in camp, though. Hopefully, he makes it through the plane ride intact.
Didn’t Roundtripper Rick Reed hurt his shoulder sleeping on a plane or packing a suitcase or something a few years back?
Have a little faith in the Twin’s coaches. Liriano is the closest thing we have to an “instant Ace”. They are going to do what is right for him & the team.
Lala72, you’re a tard-o. So what if Liriano isn’t with the team for the first month? He’s the freaking franchise! To wish that Liriano is back immediately just so you have a PR reason to watch the Twins exposes you as a fan.
I kinda think that it wouldn’t be so bad for him to start in AAA just to get him back on track a little bit. I don’t care who you are, if you go a year and a half without playing, there is going to be some rust and just getting reacquainted with the game. It’s a lot different throwing off a mound to no one than pitching in a game. If he goes down there and is blowing everyone away, than yah bring him back up, but I think that until he gets adjusted to it again it would be better.
plus one more thing it seems pretty clear he’ll be on a pitch count for awhile and some restrictions, so I think it would be easier to have him pitch AAA where there won’t be as much pressure to possibly keep him in a game longer than they would want to.
Ya think Gardy thinks we have a chance to compete this year by gum doggone-it?
Then he’ll be tempted to risk the Franchise arm, won’t he.
Bill Smith might have to send Liraino to AAA to keep him away from Gardy.
I’m not sure I care if he starts out of spring training, my concern is his ability to stay healthy at all. The only reason he was thrown into the the AJ trade was his injury history in the minors.
And, if he has to change his motion to stay healthy, how effective will he even be?
Those questions are much more important than if he misses 3-4 starts in the majors because they start him in AAA (how is throwing in AAA less harmful to your arm, btw?).
Hey, everybody keep in mind that every time a pitcher comes back from Tommy John surgery, they are never as effective in that first year as they were before their injury. It seems like most people are forgetting that detail. It is the second season back after the surgery that pitchers start to regain their old effectiveness, if they ever do. Remember Joe Mays. He was pretty good before surgery, but was terrible after it.
And since they are changing his delivery, he is going to need time to master that and get his arm strength back up.
It is very unlikely that Liriano will be the pitcher we remember him as this season. I am as excited as anybody for him to be back, but I dont expect much this year.
agree with the premise albeit partially: If he is not 100% he should be in the minors to slowly build his arm strength. Being in the pen would not help him much. There are reports that his velocity is back but unfortunately I haven’t heard anything about how his slider is working and an elbow ligament replacement is more likely to affect his slider vs the velocity of his fastball…
(how is throwing in AAA less harmful to your arm, btw?)
It’s likely a mental thing. In the Minors the games mean something, but when he’s in the Majors he’s on the big stage.
They might be concerned that if he’s in the spotlight too soon after coming back he’ll put pressure on himself and throw harder than he should be at this point.
This is especially a concern now that Santana’s gone, as Liriano seems to have been deemed his succesor.
Is AAA low enough? Liriano hasn’t pitched in a long time. Maybe the reason he was so good were the things that were hurting his arm. If Anderson is going to tweak his delevery, he may need more time to learn how to pitch,build muscle, and confidence.
bullfrog, while pitchers don’t generally perform as well in their first ‘post TJ’ season, there is one reason for optimism with regard to Liriano. Having the surgery during the 2006 season, rather than during the following offseason, means he’s several months further along in his rehab than most pitchers coming off such a procedure are. I don’t think anyone is projecting that he’ll immediately come back right where he left off, in terms of effectiveness, but there’s reason to be optimistic that he won’t have all of the same issues other pitchers have had coming back.
I talked to a guy a few years ago from Winnipeg whose big beat as a sportswriter was covering the Canadian national curling teams. He said there was a lot of hanky-panky going on between the members of the men’s and women’s teams, many of whom were married to people outside the world of curling. I never read anything about it, so I assume everyone decided to settle down and mind their manners. I’m guessing it is difficult to find a good woman in Canada who is not involved in curling, so the guys who were lucky enough to find these women decided in the end to count their lucky stars and re-dedicate themselves to their marriages.
Jama
Real fans? Come on. It’s so easy to tee off on a guy that makes the statement I made, because I’m the only one that has courage to go out on a limb.
Why are we always waiting for tomorrow? What the hell good is tomorrow if we piss away today? All this organization ever thinks about is tomorrow. It’s why Johan left.
And, if Liriano isn’t ready, that’s the Twins fault for babying him too much. Eddie G was back six months ago, and he had the exact same surgery nine days AFTER Liriano.
That’s right, let’s just baby him, and keep all these young pitchers bottle up at AAA until we have a situation like our OF situation back in the early 2000s.
Yep, let’s just keep “building for 2010″. Why 2010??? Why, because the ballpark opens? Big deal. What a STUPID attitude.
Let’s win NOW.
Liriano will be ready to go by the end of March. I’d bet my life savings on it.
T
Every time I read your “wisdom” I have to laugh. You are the same guy that called me names and told me I was such an idiot at the end of last season, when I told you that Hunter, Santana, and Silva would be gone next year. You said no way, told me how stupid I was for saying such a thing, and then insisted that the Twins would re-sign Hunter and Silva, and extend Santana.
You weren’t even close, pal! And I was right on. That’s why you can bank on Liriano leaving spring training in the Twins rotation, because there’s NO real difference on a guy’s arm between logging innings in AAA and the majors. It’s all wear and tear, no matter what your illogical “wisdom” claims.
Do you even watch baseball???
BTW: To all that ripped me for the “who cares” comment: That was directed at a team that would leave a guy like Liriano in AAA (to endure the same wear and tear he’d get up here); it was directed at a team that would seemingly continue to employ that “wait until tomorrow” attitude some of us are growing tired of. It wasn’t as if he’s the only guy I watch. Christ. Use your head, morons.
Every time I read your “wisdom” I have to laugh.
And every time I see you go ad hominem with your arguments vs. actual baseball facts I can’t help but not take it seriously.
You are the same guy that called me names and told me I was such an idiot at the end of last season, when I told you that Hunter, Santana, and Silva would be gone next year.
I would love to see the quotes you refer to. I’m pretty sure my mentality was “I’d hate to see it happen.” moreso than “It’s not going to happen.”
But whatever.
Do you even watch baseball???
If you wouldn’t have spent every game thread whining about Punto and lambasting Gardy maybe you’d have noticed my posts.
But I don’t blame you. It’s my fault I didn’t include “Pohlad sucks” in every one of my comments. I know it’s like a beacon for people such as yourself.
And, if Liriano isn’t ready, that’s the Twins fault for babying him too much.
If Liriano isn’t ready…do you think it’s because he missed nearly a full season due to an injury?
Eddie G was back six months ago, and he had the exact same surgery nine days AFTER Liriano.
ANd how has Eddie G. been performing these days?
And you accuse me of not watching baseball? I suppose if you want to watch “The Franchise” become the next Mark Prior or Kerry Wood, that’s fine by me.
But I don’t want to hear you half way through 2008 whining that “Gardy’s a moron for destroying Liriano’s arm!” when he’s back on the DL.
But at least they had that nice PR boost for 4 months…
Anyone who thinks the only reasons to watch the Twins were Torii Hunter and Johan Santana last season, or Liriano this season, can’t really understand or enjoy the game of baseball very much.
