The Liriano thing, enough blame for everyone
Posted on March 24th, 2008 – 8:53 AMBy Howard
So just when people were lining up to talk smack about Francisco Liriano, he goes out and throws four hitless innings. Of course, those innings were against a Grade-Z Baltimore lineup that included the minimum complement of probable regulars (3) that teams are supposed to send to a road game. So I’m not going to be convinced that Liriano “answered the skeptics” with Sunday’s performance. What he did, effectively, was defer the decision about his status (25-man roster vs. more time to get ready) for another few days and remind us of some truths about how baseball teams communicate in less than forthcoming fashion about the status of players — within their own organizations as well as with the rest of us. (You are not alone, Bill Belichick. You just seem to enjoy being disingenuous more than most people.)
As Patrick Reusse pointed out on the radio Sunday morning, you really can’t take at face value much of anything that comes out of a team’s foreign postings, in this case the Twins’ operation in the Dominican Republic, where reports were being issued that Liriano was throwing 97 or 107 or 177 or whatever. Everyone — from Bill Smith to Joe Fan — wanted to believe that Liriano’s late arrival at spring training didn’t put him behind the others, but I suspect that Smith was as skeptical as many of us, and now is probably pretty frustrated and angry about how things have been playing out. Now, we’re hearing about the lack of honest communication between the Twins and their young pitcher, with management trying to spin blame onto Liriano in Sunday’s newspapers.
Some of us long ago learned not to believe stories about the health and other status issues involving players. We’re finding out now that Joe Mauer was more banged up last year than anyone was willing to acknowledge, complete with a mystery medical procedure in the off-season that’s helped make things better. I’m OK with not getting full disclosure from the team, as long as I’m not expected to accept team pronouncements at face value. It’s an endless silly circle that should remind us of the ongoing need to be skeptical. Get excited about what you see, not what you hear. Remember Carlos Silva’s bullpen “adjustments”?
So, like, was Liriano really sick when he didn’t make his TwinsFest appearances in January? Don’t know. Did he really need to fulfill some kind of alcohol screening before being allowed to come into the county in February? Don’t know. Did all of that extra weight comes from those workouts or Dos Equis? Don’t know.
What I do know is that the Twins don’t exactly have my sympathies on this one, either. Now we’re hearing that the Twins relied on Johan Santana (remember him?) as their intermediary to find out how Liriano was feeling in 2006 and they’re unhappy they didn’t get full disclosure until his arm fell off. At the same time, players who complain about being less than 100 percent for any extended period of time are typically looked at with suspicion by management and teammates. See Torii Hunter/Joe Mauer. See 2007 Clubhouse & Staff/Jeff Cirillo.
And, as commenter Ben astutely points out below, “Also remember that in that 2006 season Radke was worshipped for pitching while his arm was falling off.”
Players are expected to play through aches. In 2006, LaVelle wrote a story about Santana’s routine that spoke to the pain that he dealt with during and after every start, and the regimen he went through to prepare to do it again and again.
Not everyone has Mike Redmond’s insane pain threshold, you know.
Liriano was in the midst of a magical summer in 2006 and can he blamed for thinking (and hoping) he could pitch through anything to live up to being “the Franchise?” What was Santana supposed to do — make Liriano do range of motion exercises?
Now we know that he’s viewed by management as immature and flaky and uncommunicative … but there should really have been a better way to figure out what was happening than to rely on another player. That the Twins don’t have a coach whose first language in Spanish is something to put on the to-do list to be remedied.
I hope that Liriano’s next outing repeats what he did against the Orioles on Sunday and that the one after that is a wildly successful one against the Angels or Royals at the Metrodome during the first week of the season. I’m not going to get my hopes up, though, for anything except that everyone has learned something from this episode.
other people are here too.
32 Responses to "The Liriano thing, enough blame for everyone"
Also remember that in that 2006 season Radke was worshipped for pitching while his arm was falling off.
We’re finding out now that Joe Mauer was more banged up last year than anyone was willing to acknowledge, complete with a mystery medical procedure in the off-season that’s helped make things better.
Wouldn’t it have been nice if say, the manager or GM, or somebody would have said to Torii Hunter, hey, tone it down, Joe’s really hurt. Now, half the Twins fans think that Joe’s some sort of pansy for not “playing hurt”. Ah, leadership. I sure won’t miss it.
btw, very good post, Howard.
This is great Howard. I think Gardy handled this like scheise. Why bring it up now? Why not talk about it late last year when it came up? I don’t get it. He put his GM in the position to play damage control, which Smith handled with grace and class. The gist of Smith’s comments is it’s a two-way street. You don’t blame all of the communication problems on Liriano. Gardy and Andy have some responsibility here as well.
I just hate how Gardy calls guys out in the press. Talk to the kid. Don’t yell at him through the press about something that happened in October. He did the same thing with Garza last year. And we all know how that went. The Twins felt they needed to get rid of the best pitching prospect they’ve had since Santana (and I’m including Liriano in that) because the manager had damaged his relationship with him. I just hope this Liriano thing doesn’t end up like that. Talent like Liriano doesn’t come around very often. Gardy can’t keep wrecking his relationship with his best players just because he personally doesn’t like them. That’s no way to run a winning team.
If Liriano was pitching brilliantly in spring training I doubt any of this dirty laundry would have been aired out.
That Liriano might struggle in Spring Training and well into the season after missing an entire year-and-a-half with Tommy John surgery should be neither surprising nor alarming to anyone. This team never apologizes for “babying” its pitchers–but the reason they’re on the defensive is because they sold off 3/5 of their starting rotation from last year (Santana, Garza, Silva) and are now faced with a situation where Liriano likely won’t help now, and there’s a legitimate debate whether a guy named “Boof” might just be your staff ACE at this point.
Liriano’s hurting himself more than the Twins if he’s not being honest with the club. He hasn’t had his big payday yet, and won’t get it if he can’t stay healthy. And I don’t agree that this is the same situation as Radke in 2006, because you knew that Radke was done pitching after that year, whereas Liriano was a 22-year old who the Twins were counting on for years to come.
“The Twins felt they needed to get rid of the best pitching prospect they’ve had since Santana (and I’m including Liriano in that) because the manager had damaged his relationship with him.”
Odd statement.
I would say the Twins felt the need to deal Garza because they were sorely lacking in impact position players and to potentially get one they had to deal a potentially impact pitcher in return.
Teams don’t give up Delmon Youngs for free.
Great post Howard
Frank gets criticized for not talking enough about how his injury is healing and Mauer seems to be told not to talk about his injuries to the media or teammates. Double standard? I think so. Maybe we should call the whole group before congress and see if we can get the truth then. Or maybe the twins management trying to start a move Frank to third base movement.
I didn’t say the Radke situation is the same. I’m saying the role model of the pitching staff was playing hurt it was seen as dutiful and heroic and that would reinforce the idea with Liriano that that is how it’s supposed to be.
I see it as an effort to rile Liriano up, and maybe make him bear down a bit. You know, like professionals are s’posed to.
I totally agree with the article. Using a player as a go between seems odd and tons of guys play through injuries and pain. Gardenhire needs to communicate directly with Liriano, in his office with an interpreter.
Th Radke situation was a bit different as we knew there was no next year for him. That said I’m sure Radke was inspiring to the other players, he certainly was to me as a fan. A lot of guys would have shrugged and called it a career.
This is really a tempest in a teapot. Liriano missed 10 days of spring training and he is obviously not comfortable yet. Plus, he is jst back from surgery after 15 months of inaction. Give the young man some time to find himself. What is all this impatience?
As to discrediting a player in the press, it is wrong and can backfire, If Gardenhire has something to say, call the player to his office and chew him up in English, Spanish or Japanese - do not humiliate him over the media?!
Not my usual in depth statement: This is another example of why I don’t think Gardy is all that good at his job.
Hello!!!!!
It’s Tommy John surgery! People cry and whine that he’s not throwing like Koufax and they somehow don’t mention that it takes AT LEAST a year and a half to recover. Don’t expect him to be good until at least July. Yes, Gardenhire criticizes players that might be good, and compliments young players who suck, but that shouldn’t bother anyone as much as the reporters who enable this kind of propaganda. Liriano needs more time to recover. It’s that simple. The company line from the Twins is that they are going to compete for a division title this year. Oh, please. They just want to placate the zombies who like the taste of the kool-aid enough to buy season tickets. Figure it out, people.
I do not think the Liriano’s way is nothing new. I remember they reported in 2006 a complaint from Gardenhire cause he did not said at the moment that something was hurting him.
Second of all, I can not believe, not even an inch, how on earth could you not follow strictly and constantly your best pitching option in his rehab during the winter, when the one sure thing was that Garza was gone and Santana all but packed his belongings.
It could be a lot worse. In the NHL the one thing certain about all injury reports is that they are all lies. Teams will not alert the other teams to a “weak spot” that the player has. NHL players will go after the injured area to gain advantage.
No coach with Spanish as a first language?? What the heck does Tony Oliva do?? I luv him, but the guy’s been here 40+ years and English is STILL his 2nd language!
Gypsy,
Even though Oliva wears a uniform during spring training, he’s not a coach. Tony-O works for the Twins as their resident “legend-around town.”
Gardenhire has been proven to have his favorites in the clubhouse and have made more than a few racially insensitive comments (one of the latest being after Gomez run against the wall this spring: “I asked him if he was ok, I couldn’t understand a word he said so I took him out of the game”)
Folks, this is the 21st century. Communication is a 2-way street. As someone who manages and will continue to manage foreign (Spanish speaking people) Gardy should get off his redneck ways and hit the books and try to learn Spanish. If he can’t he should be out. It is his responsibility to communicate with the players and not the players’ responsibility…
Hunter was a clubhouse cancer who over stepped his boundaries with Gardy avoiding the issue (did Hunter ever say anything about Steward and Rondell being hurt all the time?.) Good riddance.
re Garza: unfortunately the Garza situation reminds me a lot of the Ortiz situation. Gardy & Ryan got rid of Ortiz because he wanted to hit home runs instead of hitting the ball the other way. Gardy & Ryan/Smith got rid of Garza because he wanted to throw fastballs instead of changeups… There is symmetry to this. Gardy has his shortcomings. If the team does not compete this season, he should be replaced by a manager that cares about all of his players…
cmathewson is correct.This is just another case of Gardenhire being in love with his own voice/quotes.This should not have been a major story filled with quotes of the manager ripping his potential Ace.It sounds like Lariano has been less than forthcoming, but this should be handled in house.Bill Smith needs to haul the manager into his office and tell him to keep his mouth shut IMO.
Gardenhire has shown little ability to “manage” 25 different personalities during his tenure.If you play for the Twins you seem to have two options.If he likes you (or if in the case of LNP,you remind him of himself)you live in the penthouse,free from any bad press.If he doesn’t like you or you screw up,he takes you to task in the media, and you end up in the dog house.
How many guys in their early to mid-20’s are totally mature & communicative? Gardy has kids. Work it out guys. Keep it out of the press.
Communication is a 2-way street. As someone who manages and will continue to manage foreign (Spanish speaking people) Gardy should get off his redneck ways and hit the books and try to learn Spanish. If he can’t he should be out. It is his responsibility to communicate with the players and not the players’ responsibility…
The player has no responsibility? Get serious. The player is the employee in this relationship and the manager is the boss, that’s why he is called the man-a-ger.
The sooner some of these budding prima donnas understand that, the better off they’ll be. Veer out of line, you get nudged back in. That’s how it works.
Show an ounce of responsibility, coachability and maturity and you won’t need to be ripped in the press. Show some self-discipline and there will be less need to impose discipline upon you.
It seems Liriano is a bit embarrassed by the situation. That’s a good response. He should be.
It’s tough love, ‘Cisco. It won’t kill you. It will make you stronger.
The player is the employee in this relationship and the manager is the boss,
thus, as the boss, the manager should be accountable for what his staff (players) deliver (or fail too) just as in any other job…
Also, tell me the name of any foreign-born hispanic player (not named Santana) prospect or established who was not either driven out of town while Gardenhire was the manager or exceeded expectations while with the Twins.
I think that there is a real problem here and Gardy (or the organization) better solve it quickly.
Also, tell me the name of any foreign-born hispanic player (not named Santana) prospect or established who was not either driven out of town while Gardenhire was the manager or exceeded expectations while with the Twins.
I think Luis Castillo and Carlos Silva both exceeded expectations while with the Twins. So did Johan.
All were rewarded with nice contracts by their new teams, based on their performance in Minnesota, largely or mostly under Gardy.
I think your ‘real problem’ is an overreaction.
Luis Castillo was a ghost of his former self while with the Twins. Silva was in Gardy’s doghouse multiple times…
And Guzman and Rivas were given every opportunity to stick with the club even though Rivas clearly didn’t play with any heart or hustle, hallmarks of The Twins Way.
Wait, you didn’t mention them because they didn’t fit the marmalade-colored sky world you’ve talked yourself into.
Don’t throw around allegations of racial impropriety lightly. Unless, of course, I’m wrong and you’ve spent a lot of time in the clubhouse. Or, perhaps you were there when Gomez knocked himself silly running into the wall and heard the conversation that ensued?
As for the Santana thing, I think I understand. Who do you think Liriano is going to be more forthcoming with? His mentor and friend, Santana? Or his boss, Gardenhire? I wouldn’t want to go on the DL or back to the minors, either. Not with the season he was having.
What? You never told you’re mom you were feeling 100% better after being sick so you could go out and play ball with your friends?
Here is how I see it.
Gardy expects everyone to “cowboy up” so to speak, and play the game “the right way - the twins way”
YET
The more we delve into it… the more we see that Mauersota is as banged up as the economy of Minnesota, and hopefully 2008 out performs 2007 all the way around on both fronts! We see that Gardy praises Hunter for his toughness, and his leadership same with Santana, but that he relied on them to coach the freaking team as well.
Who got the credit from Hunter for his great 2006 season, and his great 2007 season? Joe Mauer
Who deserved the credit for Nick Punto’s career 2006 season? Rod Carew
These players are allowed to police themselves far too much.
Gardy wants to be one of the boys, and not the man running the show. He loves to drink beer, and go bowling with the boys, and get weird with his wife over hardware stores…
How many of his decisions to pull Bonser last season lead to Bonser’s attitude problem, and subsequent weight gain? How many of those games did Gardy out think himself and bring in Rincon to watch a lead lost?
Could Gardy and Childress be the ultimate tag team in thinking they know more than they really do?
From all these articles it sure reads like Gardy doesn’t have his finger on the pulse of squat.
On a positive note… thank god Gomez got the CF job. I seriously want to say I feel bad for Denard Span… he put up one heck of a battle for the position… and played about 100 times better than I thought he was capable of… he showed me something, but he will never be what Gomez can be, and if Span can stay within himself, and continue to take what he did this spring in spring training I think he could seriously find himself as a major league ball player in a year or two, and 2 weeks ago I would have taken a bullet before saying that. So Congrats to Gomez, and Kudos to Span.
Now what is this nonsense with the Twins resigning Nathan to a 4 year 47 million dollar deal with a 3 team limited no trade clause?
Even beyond my question of why the hell would you waste 47 million on a closer that won’t save games for a team that may not win 70 games in 2008 is…
WHO ARE THE THREE TEAMS?
Texas, Tampa and Pittsburgh, or is it something personal? He won’t play for Toronto, Baltimore or Boston? or WHO are the three teams????
Howard, buddy, Pal, please find this one out… I’m dying to know.
>>How many of his decisions to pull Bonser last season lead to Bonser’s attitude problem, and subsequent weight gain?
I’m pretty sure it was the wings, not Gardy.
I felt back when they finally dumped Ullger as the hitting coach it would have been a great time for an organization who had so many Latino ballplayers in the pipeline to add a Latino coach to their Major League staff. Unfortunately, they not only kept Ullger (who moved from being an ineffective hitting coach to a questionable 3rd base coach), but it turned out Vavra’s resume was just too good to pass up for the hitting coach position, as well.
Speaking of Ullger, it baffles me how he can maintain his position as the 3rd base coach. His performance there has been, as you alluded to, highly questionable.
