They’re my stats and I’m sticking with ‘em
Posted on April 21st, 2008 – 1:05 AMBy Howard
Now that the season is three weeks old, I figured I’d dig out some numbers that seem especially meaningful and share then. Accept or reject them at will and, for Pete’s sake, don’t take ‘em too seriously. Go ahead and add your own, if you’d like.
*Nick Punto came within one hit of having three in a game on Sunday. It has been 10 months and 23 days since Punto’s last three-hit game, which came against Chicago on May 28, 2007. Jason Bartlett has 6 three-hits games since Punto’s last one. Mitt Harris has 11, including Sunday’s.
*Number of discernible boos for Punto when he came to the plate Sunday — 0. Same thing on Saturday. For whatever reason, Punto is much less popular with the people who come to the Dome compared with those who don’t get out so much. I don’t buy Gardy’s contention that Punto “doesn’t help fantasy teams but he can help you win baseball games,” but neither do I buy the pariah status that some think Punto has attained.
*Times I’ve used the word “turd” in this blog in connection with Frank Thomas — 1. Times this weekend when he acted like one — 1. After being told his role with the Jays was being reduced, Thomas blew off his teammates after they beat Detroit on Saturday. On Sunday, he was released. Over/under on the number of times blog commenters will suggest the Twins sign Thomas — 516, one for each career homer.
*Number of catches by Gogomez that would have killed Torii Hunter — 2. One in Chicago and that incredible diving catch in the ninth inning Sunday with a runner on first second and one out.
*Number of walks given up by Twins starters — 25. Number given up by starters not named Liriano — 15. Place Twins finished in 2006 — first. Place Twins would have finished in ‘06 without a starter named Liriano — not first. (Patience, people.)
*Last time a team went 19 games into a season with only two players hitting a home run — 1984. Number of current Twins who were less than four years old when that last happened — 16.
*Twins record: 9-10. Twins record at the Dome: 6-6. Twins record in games I’ve attended: 5-1. Obvious conclusion: Gimme your tickets and the Twins win the division without a problem.
other people are here too
142 Responses to "They’re my stats and I’m sticking with ‘em"
Place Twins finished in 2006 — first. Place Twins would have finished in ‘06 without a starter named Liriano — not first. (Patience, people.)
Amen to that. It blows my mind that fans are ready to send Liriano after just 2 starts. He’s not exactly the same pitcher as he was in 2006, but I do have faith (optimism?) that he’ll come around. However, I would love it if he wouldn’t walk everyone under the sun.
Twins record: 9-10. Twins record at the Dome: 6-6. Twins record in games I’ve attended: 5-1.
My record is 1-2, with both of those losses being shutouts (1-0 against LAA and 4-0 against Cleveland).
I also believe those are the only two shutouts the Twins have had.
I also believe people won’t want me to go to games anymore.
—–
As far as the lack of boos for Punto at the Dome, I’ve found hat at the Dome it’s hard for a Twin to get booed. You usually have to do something in that game to get booed. For example, Joe Mays’ last start against Chicago back in 2005.
The crowd didn’t boo when he came out, but when he gave up three 2-out runs in the first inning (including a Dye homer)…and then gave up more runs when the Twins had tied it…he got booed badly.
I am ashamed to admit I joined. But I was MAD.
The season has a long way to go. I think the Twins (including Punto) will surprise a lot of the naysayers on this blog before it’s over.
I was at the game on Friday for Liriano’s first start in the dome this season (pathetic game by the way, Twins: 2 hits, both of the infield variety, against Cliff Lee, who?), and from what I saw, Liriano’s only problem right now is regaining his command, he hit 93 on the dome radar gun a few times, so the velocity is almost back. His changeup was throwing hitters off, and honestly his slider was his best pitch that day. He definitely was struggling to stay in the strike zone though, 93 pitches in 5 innings and 5 walks are far too many.
One unfortunate sidenote which I think will take Liriano even longer to adjust to is that he no longer has the ability to throw that slider in the upper 80’s low 90’s, watching the radar gun in the dome, his changeup was coming in at 78-81, and his slider was going 81-83, which isn’t a very big speed difference, so Liriano has lost much of his ability to keep guys off balance as far as velocity, he used to have the 95+ fastball, 80ish changeup, and the 88+ slider, 3 distinct, varied speeds. Now he has the 90+ fastball, 80ish changeup, and 80ish slider, I think that will be one of the biggest adjustments he has to make in using his pitches effectively, and I don’t see the point at all in sending him down to the minors, with the command issues being the only issues in my opinion, he’ll struggle the same there as he is right now here, but even with those issues he’s still a better starting pitcher for this team than the other guys they could bring up right now, so I don’t see the point, it’ll take him some more time, but be patient, I saw glimpses of the greatness from ‘06 in that game, he just needs to get comfortable back into the MLB season groove.
I am pretty sure a man was on 2nd when Gomez made that catch.
How many CF’s could keep enough concentration to catch a ball after slamming their chest into the ground on a dive?
I agree that Liriano will eventually turn it around, but why is he trying to figure things out in the bigs? Why did he get called up when he had no command in the minors? He should still be pitching in the minors until he can control his fastball. That is the pitch that is getting him in so much trouble.
Bold Prediction: Nick Punto will be the starting shortstop by May 15th–will hit just well enough to stay in the lineup and drive the bloggers crazy.
This was definetly a web gem weekend for the Twins a lot of very solid defense. One thing i’m wondering about is how long of a leash Lamb has this year. If Buscher picks up where he left off in AAA my little lambs job might be in jeopardy.
jama - I understand the reasoning for doing what you say and keeping him in the minors, but right now his stuff (pitches), as a whole, are still the best on the team and organization. Slider isn’t 90 mph anymore, but it still has the big movement. as I mentioned before, his fastball is about 91-92 consistently which is on par with any of the other starters, and his changeup still causes big problems for hitters, far more noticeably from him than any of the other starters. His only issue is the command, and its just gonna take more time for him to get it back. He’s on the MLB team right now because he’s still got electric stuff, not quite the lightning in a bottle stuff from ‘06, but pretty close to that is still the best on this team. Control issues isn’t something that being sent to the minors is going to fix for him, time spent pitching is what will, I’d rather have him using his pitches up here than in the minors when it’s still apparent to me that he’s got the best stuff on the team despite he’s just come back from a major surgery. The control isn’t there, but the pitches are. Keep him here.
Twins record : 9-10
Twins record if others started Liriano’s 2 games : 9-10
“I am ashamed to admit I joined. But I was MAD.”
This is why no one gets booed at the Dome…our fans think it’s “not nice”. To me, when you pay the kind of money we pay to attend these games, a little fan motivation is not only appropriate at times, but it can be a helpful reminder that we’re not at a little league game where we want to encourage everyone and stay positive.
Memo to Patrick Reusse…I heard him say yesterday on the radio that the commenter’s on these blogs (although he was referring to Russo’s Wild blog) do not spend money on tickets…I don’t know about the rest of you, but that is 100 percent incorrect in my case. I suspect many of you also spend some of your hard-earned on tickets…so this notion that our opinions should be disregarded because we’re not paying customers is complete crap…I’d like to know the basis for his assertion that blog commentators are mere crazy fans and not paying customers? Where did he come up with that?
Further, even if you don’t physically buy a ticket and go to the game, we are all consumers in the sense that anyone who watches/listens to the Twins adds to the overall profit scheme of the franchise…which, in and of itself, gives you the right to feel like a paying customer.
Just thought I would clear that point up and would love to hear feedback.
Jason - word on the Ruesse statements, I was kind of pissed when I heard that as well.
I went to 3 wild games this year, I’ve been to 1 twins game so far (last friday), and plan to go to at least 10 more, I didn’t get to a vikings game this year, but was at one each of the prior 3 seasons, I even went to a T-wolves game this year (though I didn’t buy the ticket), and Gopher football against my NDSU Bison. Anyway, I took offense to Ruesse’s statements because of that.
You can comment on the Twins whether you pay money for tickets or not. Reusse gets paid to go to the games, so it’s not like he’s paying for tickets either. He has something going on that he just either really doesn’t like blogging (and bloggers) or he’s got a bit going trying to make you all angry. I’m not sure why anyone would care what he says or not, but we do.
Well I can tell you why he doesn’t like blogging or bloggers, mike…it’s the same reason Dan Barreiro eliminated comments from his blog–these guys want to have the only voice when it comes to sports commentary. They don’t want others to come up with insight that they didn’t think of, and they really don’t want public opinion to be shaped by someone other than them….it’s that simple.
I applaud those, like Howard, who welcome fan participation.
I don’t agree that’s why Dan or Patrick do/say what they do. But, since I don’t know either person, you could be right.
I like it. I like it alot:
1.CF Gomez
2. C Mauer - batting 2nd where he
belongs
3.2B Cuddyer - played well at 2nd base in 2004
4.1B Morneau
5.DH Frank Thomas - SIGN HIM!
6.RF Kubel - play him every day
7.LF Young - batting him 7th might take some pressure off him
8.3B Harris - maybe he’s more comfortable at 3rd than Cuddyer
9.SS Tolbert - better than Everett
Patricks right i’m sure all those 5-10 year old kids who accompany there parents to games are much more knowledgable fans then any of us.
It’s Go-Go GOmez.
not gogomez.
Remember Pat’s 207 article saying that all bloggers lived in their mother’s basement and “don’t get out much”?
This is old play for him. He’s just upset because there are bloggers who are actually better writers than him. So he won a Pulitzer some years back for sports writing–that’s like winning gold at the special olympics. I mean, when Bill Plaschke is one of the most celebrated writers in your profession, I think it speaks a lot about the industry.
All the old newspaper writers are just afraid because people with better skills now have to a medium to show them off.
*2007
Well, Fred, I guess my point is it’s one thing for a journalist/columnist to be a little guarded when this new medium allows for others to share in their work as a writer, but quite another to insult many of HIS readers by coming up with completely baseless statements like “none of them are buying tickets”. How insulting.
For the record, I think Patrick Reusse is the most talented sports writer in this market, but his tirade yesterday about internet bloggers was laughably inaccurate and only proved how bitter he apparently feels about the direction blogging has gone.
This is similar to his takes on ESPN–where I usually agree with him–another medium which truly did threaten his industry’s way of life.
Okay…I’ll add the second of 516 calls for signing Frank Thomas. Twins blew it when they didn’t sign him for 2006 (and I sat in the homerun porch for the first playoff game when he almost singlehandedly made them pay for not signing him). He may have a big ego and act churlish, but he hits well in the Dome and the Twins still sorely lack power. Maybe the team needs a little clubhouse surliness to advance beyond mediocrity.
That said, I’d be shocked if they actually signed him.
I agree…find a way to get him….you can say Kubel has developed into the de-facto DH, but I still want the Big Hurt!
VERY intriguing. I didn’t think it could be done.
Can Kubel play second (I know, I know…)? Cuddyer’s SO GOOD in right….
wasnt the guy on second when gomez made that catch?
that was directed at John Rambo…for some reason that ended up as my “website”….
T-
I agree with you 100%. I’m pretty vocal when I’m unhappy, and I went to the Twins 20th reunion for the 87 team, and Bonser was the pitcher that night. He was doing his warm ups, and he’d already been on the verge of being demoted. I was sitting about 9 rows up from the bullpen and he was standing their bitching to Joe Mauer about the trucks, and the time, and blah blah blah… Instead of being appreciative he was being a jerk… and as soon as it quieted down from the cheering I yelled to him…
HEY BOOF don’t worry, you’ll just have to get shelled in the 4th inning instead of the fifth tonight so you can get out of the showers and feed yourself at the local OLD COUNTRY BUFFET.
He stared at me, Joe Mauer turned around, and the fans around me looked at me like I’d just committed a mortal sin.
The fans here are very fair weather, but they are also hopelessly in love with their ball club when they are there.
Wolves fans are the opposite. I know I comment on how McHale needs to be fired, and I get 10 out of 15 people disagreeing with me. They don’t go to the games, but he’s Kevin McHale so he can’t get fired. It’s annoying.
Oh and for what it’s worth… he was blown out in the 4th inning by the Texas Rangers of all teams, and all the people in my area started asking me questions about the players for both Texas and the Twins. I went from being the JERK to the guy that was right about Bonser being a jerk.
Re: Frank Thomas
If Thomas doesn’t want to platoon in Toronto why would he want to platoon with the Twins? There is a 0% chance of the Twins even giving his agent a call. I’d much rather have Kubel as the everyday DH than Thomas. This team needs some more power but not from the DH spot. It sure would be nice if an OF hit 1 HR this season. And Kubel hitting a HR while playing RF isn’t what I’m talking about.
BC…Wolves fans never had the kahunas to boo KG and it was warranted on several occasions…I would say you pretty much have the same (NBA version) of Minnesota fans at Target Center as well…go to another NBA arena, you’ll hear real booing.
Re: Thomas
The Twins have little power from the right side and Kubel has a .270 OBP as the full-time DH. Thomas has a .326 OBP, 3 HR, 11 RBI and 11 walks (that would put him between Mauer and Kubel in OBP, tied for second in HRs, 3rd in RBI and first in BBs in the Twins’ team); it does make sense for the Twins to sign him and installing him as their full time DH in the 3 hole between Mauer and Morneau, since he would be a perfect fit in that lineup and the Jays would be picking the bill. He will play for free this year This is a no brainer and the Twins’ staff better jump on it]. In that scenario Kubel can come off the bench and/or play RF and Cuddyer should see some time at 3B.
I got to hand it to Punto…I still think we would not be best served to use him as an everyday player, but at the very least he hasn’t been completely embarrassing this season so far…
I still think you gotta give Matt Tolbert ABs, however….
And I’m about one week from calling for the Astros to be rocketed out of town.
Re: Reusse,
I don’t get the connection between spending money for tickets and having a valid voice as a fan. As a matter of fact, since ticket income is only a small percentage of a club’s income, I would argue that fans who are buying team’s merchandise and watch the games on TV are contributing more financially to a club than ticket buyers…
“Place Twins would have finished in ‘06 without a starter named Liriano — not first.”
Place Twins will finish in ‘08 if Liriano continues to rehab in the Majors — not CLOSE.
sane - as I mentioned in previous posts, Liriano to me, right now, is a better option as a Twin starting pitcher than any of the guys they could bring up for him, and he isn’t going to gain anything else in the minors that he wouldn’t in the majors to help him, so I don’t see the point.
and the fact is related to your “Place Twins will finish in ‘08 if Liriano continues to rehab in the Majors — not CLOSE.” statement, is they aren’t gonna be close regardless, and no other pitcher will change that in relation to Liriano.
thrylos
If you think Thomas is going to play for peanuts you are crazy. His agent has already stated that he is looking at getting at least a 2 year deal for Thomas. I think it is a little one-sided to look at Kubel’s numbers only when he DH’s and not when he is in the field. Yes his numbers have gone up since playing RF but I think they will continue when he returns to DH.
I just don’t see Thomas fitting into this teams long term plans either. They have the Right handed Power hitter that they want. Unfortunately somebody from the Twins forgot to tell Delmon Young that these games count. I agree that more power especially from the right side of the plate is needed, I just don’t see Thomas as a good fit.
I guess my main point is, I’d rather have him up here and be able to work with Rick Anderson everyday than down in the minors. They can monitor him better and have a better idea of how he’s doin this way.
Keep
If the Twins are trying to win this year then Liriano never should have been called up. He doesn’t give the Twins a good chance to win when he pitches right now. I agree that his stuff is probably better than everyone elses when he commands it but right now he has very little control over all his pitches. If the Twins are just kind of playing this season out looking more towards the future then I am ok with bringing Liriano up, but he does not help them right now.
JD: Liondragon: You’re right. The runner was on second. I fixed it. You know, in the excitement of the moment and all that…
MC: My blog, my nickname. Think of Gogomez like Nene or Ronaldinho. Only one name needed. (Pronunciation guide reminder for Section 220 readers using the nickname in casual conversation: GO-guh-mez.)
All: There’s a discussion of where Liriano should rehab in my previous post, if you didn’t see it.
Bloggers v. Columnists: This sounds like a showdown headed for Monday Night Raw.
jama,
of course Thomas does not fit into the Twins long term plans. They need a bat like his to win this year. It will be an one year deal. What is holding the Twins back is lack of RH power. The pitching is fine (actually leading the AL in WHIP and being close second in ERA). I just don’t get the attitude of forgetting this year and looking for the proverbial “future”
Kubel should be there pretty much everyday. If Thomas joins the team, Kubel should be in the outfield. There are still offense issues at SS/3B and a mix of Cuddyer/Harris/Everett would be fine in those positions and 2B with Lamb and Tolbert on the bench.
As far as compensation goes, this is not football. The Jays are responsible for the remaining $8 mil of his contract this year and the team that will sign him won’t have to pay him. If he is looking for a 2 year contract, the $8mil from the Jays go away, so this surprises me, because nobody would pay him more that $8 for 2 years right now…
jama - you summed up why Liriano is up here with your opening statement:
“If the Twins are trying to win this year…”
they are ‘trying’ to win, every team is ‘trying’ to win. But if the Twins look at themselves in the mirror, THIS year, they’re not suppose too, and everyone should know they are rebuilding for 2010 by now which means your argument is moot.
and why can’t you say they brought up Liriano so soon because they were ‘trying’ to win more and they felt he gave them the best chance to do so? I think it can go both ways…
keep,
You think that no SP in the Twins minor league system can top Liriano’s performance.
0-2 W-L; 6.52 ERA; 7 K; 10 BB
I think there are many who can top those (brutal) numbers led by Mulvey, Duensing, and Slowey. (after his rehab)
Humber will also be a better option later, when he shakes off his demotion.
Liriano will also be better later in the year after he regains his command.
I think the Twins could be close this year as the Tigers and Indians have started poorly. We can always give up the chase later, but why surrender to teams that are currently doing worse than we are?
Nice reset, Howard…
Those who think Liriano shouldn’t be on this squad (including Blyleven based on his comments yesterday) are nuts…
He’s going to be fine, folks. Heck, he’s going to be way better than fine.
Think of it this way–look at all the patience they had with Boof last year (and this year for that matter). Boof has had exactly one good outing this year and it came on a night in KC when NOTHING coming off of the Royals’ bats were going anywhere (heck, even Neshek mowed them down that night)…Boof is starting to look like a liability…Liriano will be fine.
thrylos
You are wrong, once the Jays cut him he is owed the rest of his contract no matter what. It’s similar to the NBA. Once he clears waivers he is going to be a Free Agent that can sign with anyone for as long or short a contract he wants for any amount of money.
Frank Thomas has shown in the past that he goes where the money takes him. He isn’t likely to sign a contract below what he thinks he’s worth. My guess is he gets a 2 year deal from someone for at least $10 million. Look what Craig Monroe is making this year for Christ sake.
from Howard on previous thread in relation to AAA or MLB for Liriano (obviously, i agree with Howard):
Howard says:
April 20th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
Folks,
The problem with trying to regain command at Rochester is that minor-leaguers will swing at more bad pitches and umpires’ strike zones are dicier. You can argue well on both sides of this one, but I think Liriano and the Twins are better served by having him pitch here. It’s not like he got lit up in his first two starts.
It seems like Liriano got some things figured out between those starts. We just need to understand that his game is likely to be different in the forseeable future from the amazing half-season he put together in 2006.
Re: Liriano,
Liriano is not “rehabing”. He has his stamina and most of his velocity back. His slider is fine, but not where it was in 2006, his change up is arguably better than ever, but he lacks control in his fast ball. It is more of an adjustment issue than a rehabilitation. The place to adjust is the big club because he needs to see how those adjustments would affect him against major league opposition… it’s that simple.
It would be interesting to see what would happen once Slowey and Bass are healthy because there will be an extra arm; that is in the future…
Bloggers v. Columnists: This sounds like a showdown headed for Monday Night Raw.
Howard i think the majority of us would love to give Ruesse some sweet chin music for his comments.
jama,
he is not being put through waivers. He is unconditionally released. Indeed, if a team picked him through waivers, it would have been responsible for his contract, but this is not the case now.
New Topic:
This ended up being meaningless yesterday, but I wanna call out Gardy a bit for not pitching Nathan in the 9th or 10th. This isn’t the first time he’s made this grave mistake….here’s the rule:
You’re the home team in a tie game, assuming you’re not going to stretch out whatever reliever you already have in the game (Neshek was pulled), you go with your best pitcher in the 9th (or 10th at the very least)…the rationale is obvious–there’s no guarantee the game will extend itself another inning and you don’t want to give up the lead while your best reliever is on the bench….you go with Nathan for his one inning, then you back to the bully for an extended game…
Like I said, it didn’t end up costing them, but when I heard Gordy say “Matt Guerrier is warming up” I thought ‘oh my goodness, here we go again’…because this is managing 101 if you ask me.
thrylos
Via LEN III’s post:
Correction: Now I have been told that the Blue Jays officially designated Thomas for assignment, so they have ten days to trade him, send him down to the minors or release him. No one will trade for that contract or claim him off waivers, I’m guessing, so he will be released and then seek a deal elsewhere
He has to clear waivers at which point he will be cut and the Blue Jays will owe him the remaining portion of his contract. At that point he will be a Free Agent and he will not sign for the minimum I guarantee you that.
Jason
I agree, after getting a huge contract the Twins are actually underutilizing Nathan right now. He should have at least an extra 3 or 4 innings pitched.
sane - I disagree, I don’t necessarily think those guys would top Liriano’s numbers so far. Those guys you mentioned don’t have much experience at the MLB level if any (mulvey, duensing) and I don’t recall any pitcher in the past 5 seasons who came up to make his MLB debut and was lights out(which is pretty much what you’re asking for).
Liriano struggled in ‘05 when he was brought up, Baker struggled in ‘05 and ‘06 on his call ups, slowey was brought up and sent down. You can make a good argument for the success of Nick Blackburn so far this season, but I don’t see any of those other guys being Nick Blackburn. And honestly, just the mere presence of Liriano with this team gives them a great deal of confidence in my opinion, Redmond didn’t nickname him ‘The Franchise’ for nothing.
keep,
Topping a 6.52 ERA, 7 strikeouts, 10 walks and 10 hits in 9.2 innings would not be lights-out.
OK is good enough to top those numbers.
Did you see Nick Blackburn being Nick Blackburn?
You not seeing Kevin Mulvey being Nick Blackburn is not much of an indictment of Kevin Mulvey.
Hell, Liriano is not Nick Blackburn at this point.
He’s not even Brian Bass at this point.
jama,
you are correct… i didn’t see LEN III’s post and was going with the AP article that said “unconditionally released”… this changes things
You have the only blog on the strib page worth reading.
Once again, classic stuff.
Way off topic but I would love to see Mike Redmond as our manager someday.
Why must we be subjected to watching Liriano in this form??
It was honestly disturbing for me to watch him pitch!!
It’s like he’s given up on being a power pitcher and is trying to be the left-handed version of hernandez!!
Don’t get me wrong I like hernandez and his style but we need a “power pitcher” if for no other reason then it’s entertaining. If Liriano can’t regain old form then the Santana deal is going to look terrible in my eyes.
I wan’t to go watch someone strike out 14+ batters not get 14+ groundouts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Does MLB allow for naked managers? I thought that stuff only happened in the movie Major League.
thylos Liriano’s velocity is not almost back almost half of his fastballs were in the 80’s and his slider coming in in the 70’s. He looks like he’s trying to Santana.
I want 84-91mph sliders and 93-97mphfastballs.
Reddog will be a great manager someday!!
Maybe he’ll hire Lecroy as his hitting coach!lol
sane - the numbers may look bad to you, but I’ve thought Liriano has been at least “OK” in his starts. Certainly not what you would like, but as Howard said, its not like he got rocked.
And at the game on friday, I sat out in Centerfield even though my tickets were on the lower level 1st base side because I wanted to see how Liriano’s pitches looked. He doesn’t have good control of his fastball yet (probably not even ‘OK’), which I believe is from him trying to overthrow it because he doesn’t have the 95+ mph velocity right now like he did, and he wants that. His changeup was fooling hitters, who more often than not flailed at it if it was close enough to the zone. And as I said before, i thought his slider was his best pitch that day, it still had the monster 2-8 break to it, just not the uber-velocity, still a very tough pitch to hit. the control will come, give him time.
and No, I did not see Nick Blackburn being Nick Blackburn, but I also don’t expect it to continue…
not sure I understand the ‘you not seeing Kevin Mulvey being Nick Blackburn is not much of an indictment of Kevin Mulvey’ statement…explain? (Kevin Mulvey has never pitched at the MLB level).
and I’ll keep saying this over and over and over and over until you and others acknowledge its truth. This team is NOT going to the playoffs this year no matter how hard they try, and plugging in a Mulvey, Humber, or Duensing for Liriano is not going to change that. If there was a guy who would, I think he’d be here.
(warning: predictions ahead) Lets see how you feel in a month or so after Blackburn goes through some struggles and Liriano starts coming on…
The only reason Lariano is with the big club is so his progress can be monitored by Anderson.
shameless - “I want 84-91mph sliders and 93-97mphfastballs”
thats probably not going to happen and why he hurt his arm in the first place. I bet there aren’t 5 pitchers in all of baseball who can throw a slider in the 90’s, and if there are, most likely they are out of the pen, its very uncommon to be able to throw that pitch like that. his slider is probably going to top out at 84 or 85 even when he gets completely back, his fastball will eventually get back to the 95 mph area, but, as i said in earlier post, Liriano hit 93 on the radar at the dome several times on friday, in the first inning they were 89-90, but by the fifth he was hitting 92-93 every time. (thats very close to being back velocity wise). and I remember from his games in ‘06, he’d start out hitting 93-95 on the radar early on, but as he went along it would climb to 95-97. he gets stronger in that regard as the game goes along.
and I didn’t see a single slider he threw that dipped below 80 on friday either… it was 80-83 every time. His changeup got as low as 77, but never a slider.
keep,
I only meant that Mulvey would not have to match Blackburn’s performance to be a good temporary replacement for Liriano.
However our argument goes, the Twins look determined to keep Liriano at the MLB level at least until Slowey returns.
(or until Liriano’s performance becomes better than Slowey’s)
BC - “The only reason Lariano is with the big club is so his progress can be monitored by Anderson.”
exactly how it should be. Don’t you want your best pitching coach working with your best pitcher? but I also don’t think that is the only reason…(read previous)
sane - got ya. I just don’t see Liriano being sent down to AAA as advantageous for him like you do. I don’t see it helping him any more than pitching in the MLB. he just needs to throw, and being in the minors can have an adverse affect on his re-development (see howard’s thoughts) because he doesn’t have to pitch ‘as good’ to be successful.
Santana with better breaking stuff might be what we’ll have to settle for but I’ll always want that slider that made even the best hitter look like they didn’t even have a chance. It would be like if Bob Gibson stopped throwing his slider he wouldn’t have been as dominant but his career would have been longer.
I guess what I’m saying is I want total domination even if it is short lived…..leave it all out there kind of attitude!
keep,
“Lets see how you feel in a month or so after Blackburn goes through some struggles and Liriano starts coming on…”
In my (fictional) scenario, Liriano has returned from AAA in a month or so and is blowing away MLB hitters.
I agree Keep it’s one thing if you honestly think your a WS contender but were not so i have no problem with what they’re doing.
That’s fine if they have to have Anderson working with Liriano but do it with him coming out of the pen.
They put Santana in the pen for awhile when he was relearning to trust his elbow!
Right now Liriano is probably the 10th best pitcher on the team!
Everyone struggles, but Liraino isn’t back.
His stuff is nothing like it used to be and he can’t locate his new softer terminator
SOLUTION!!!
Send Liriano to Rochester.
Have him start the same days as Livan starts for the Twins.
Fly Anderson to Rochester when Liriano is pitching and Livan can coach himself with the Twins.
SARCASM???
Shameless aka Dusty Baker
So let me get this straight you just want to throw him out there until his arm falls off again?
That sounds like a great strategy. Who cares if he helps the Twins in 2009-2012, I want to see him throw 98 mph in 2008.
shameless - the ’softer terminator’ is still a very ‘plus’ pitch. I was at the game, I saw it, I analyzed it. I would love to see it flying at 90 mph again, but i’ll take the same break with lower velocity, less torque and less risk of reinjury over him playing half of a ‘lights out’ season. What good is it if he gets us to the playoffs but can’t pitch in them?(remember ‘06?) him throwing that thing 90 is what got him hurt, as much as I’d like to see that amazing pitch K everyone who attempted to swing at it, I’ll take the mid 80’s version that is still very tough to put good wood on.
repeat: the location and control will come, be patient.
Here’s the thing we all know the Twins have 2-3 guys in AAA that they could call up to take Larianos place. I trust that Rick and Gardy have seen enough from him to warrant keeping him in the rotation and time will tell if they were correct or not.
shameless,
“Strikeouts are facist!”
… Crash Davis
Reusse SUCKS!!!!! How can he sayy that about blogger!!!! Bloggers now more then he DOES!!!
I can’t for the life of me figure out how a newspaper columnist could take a look at a typical blog, this one excepted of course, and conclude some of the contributors might not be guarding the fourth estate in the same spirit our forefathers had intended.
Ask Kleiner,
Good stuff!
Um, Ask Kleiner, I think you just proved Reusse’s point.
I missed the Reusse blog thing where was it?
It’s great to see Punto playing full time like he deserves! Gardy knows!
Good stuff, Howard.
Re Liriano… the other factor that you have to figure the Twins are considering is that anyone they would potentially bring up from Rochester in lieu of Liriano would be using up an option for a short period of time. You have to think that whoever it is would only be around until Slowey is ready to return to the rotation. Do the Twins want to bring a guy up for just a short period so early in the season?
And frankly, I haven’t been any more impressed with Bonser than I have Liriano. If I’m shipping anyone down to Rochester, I might send Boof first. When Liriano finds the plate consistently, he’ll have better results. I don’t see Boof doing much to improve at this point.
there is no ‘Reusse blog’
See my above post…Reusse made a comment yesterday on the radio not to take blog commenters seriously because they aren’t buying tickets…something that he has absolutely no basis for saying.
Jimmy Crikket
Bonser
1 3 4.70 23 26 14 12 4 12
W L ERA IP H R ER BB K
Liriano
0 2 6.52 9.2 10 7 7 10 7
W L ERA IP H R ER BB K
Liriano’s 7K 10BB in 9.2 IP 6.52ERA don’t measure up to
Boof’s 12K 4BB in 23 IP 4.70ERA
Are we seriously comparing Liriano to Boof?
Liriano was an unhittable, strikeout machine in 2006. He’s had two sub-par outings–by the way, they never opened the floodgates in either of those outings–and now we want to nit-pick about who’s stats are worse?
Boof has proven NOTHING to us the last 9 months…
As of today Carlos Silva is having a better year then Santana looks the Mets got the wrong guy.
Jason,
You caught me.
I was trying to convince the blog that Boof has a higher ceiling as a pitcher than Liriano.
My next scam was to sell autographed pictures of King Tut, but now my credibility is shot!
well, then I ask sane, what was the purpose for the comparison?
I took it as your argument that it should be Liriano, not Boof, who should be sent down…and if you’re basing that assertion on a comparison of their ‘08 stats, I think that’s laughable.
This is why no one gets booed at the Dome…our fans think it’s “not nice”.
I don’t “boo” a guy for a previous performance. I boo a guy when he gives me reason to in that game.
For example, giving up an in the park homer to Prince Fielder when you loose the ball in the lights.
Or giving up a 2-run in the park homer to Jason Kendall in a playoff game when your two big sluggers just went b-2-b in the previous half inning to tie the game up.
“To me, when you pay the kind of money we pay to attend these games…”
“Kind of money”? I usually pay about 7 bucks for cheapseats. Occasionally I venture down into the home-run porch. Not exactly breaking the bank if you ask me.
I find the more expensive the seats get, the less fun the fans are. Either because they’ve got all kinds of money and feel special because they’re in big-boy seats…or because they’re not big baseball fans and got them from some corporate thing.
Not saying it’s all of them, but I definately have more fun with fans in the cheap seats.
Yeah you made some pretty un-informed assumptions there, T, but, more significantly, your completely misread my points with those statements and as such your responses don’t make a lot of sense…
First, there are plenty of “real” baseball fans all over the park….I prefer to sit near Howard’s section, although I will go lower deck, first base line as well…
Anyway you slice it, pro sports is expensive…add it all up…you may have paid less for your tickets, but the point is this is not an exercise in character building and encouragement…we know a lot of pro athletes out there who simply cash the checks and go through the motions and some timely booing would help motivate them to work harder, one would hope…
Come on do you think it’s easy for these guys? I’m sure after they get booed by fans they drive home in there $300,000 sports cars to there $3,000,000 homes and sit in there indoor pools and cry because the fans didn’t like them today.
Yeah you made some pretty un-informed assumptions there, T…
1) I pointed out why I boo/don’t boo. It has nothing to do with me thinking its not nice or it is nice. For me booing is a reaction to what’s happening in my game.
I booed Hunter when I went to the Twins/LAA game, and I soundly booed Joe Mays in the game against Chicago.
But I’m not going to simply boo a guy from the home team when he’s annouced in the lineup. That’s just not my style.
2) I don’t know what part of “Not saying it’s all of them…” you didn’t quite comprehend, but I suppose if you’re forcing me too…here you go:
From my personal experience the fans get far more enjoyable and into the game the cheaper the seats get. I’ve sat in the homerun porch. I’ve sat in the cheapies. I’ve sat upper deck by 3B, I’ve sat over the dugout. I’ve sat upper deck behind homeplate. I’ve sat behind home plate lower deck.
And it’s hard to call it an “uninformed assumption” when my opinion is built on personal experience.
I could also say that going by my perosnal experience most Yankees fans are a bunch of jerks. Whereas going by my personal experience the Red Sox road fans are fairly interesting people.
That’s what’s fun about personal experiences. They’re different from person to person.
Yeesh.
I’ve been boooing Boof Bonser since Day One….the funny thing is, everyone seems to join me when I do it.
Jason,
My argument was to send Liriano down for a short time until his numbers get better. Someone suggested Boof be shipped instead, but Boof’s numbers are currently acceptable. (hence the comparison of 2008 numbers)
I don’t believe for a minute that Liriano isn’t miles ahead of Boof in skills. However, if we had to win tomorrow’s game with one of them, I’d pick Boof, because of Liriano’s current command problems.
If I HAD TO pick which one to release,
not even close, Good bye Boof!
Howard, I really hope your pointing out the fact that people don’t boo Punto at games doesn’t encourage all those rabid Punto-haters to actually start going to games to prove you wrong. I like it the way it is.
I’ve only heard someone boo (well…not literally “boo,” more like “scream profanities at”) Punto was in Game 2 of the ‘06 playoffs. The guy was super pissed that Punto slid headfirst into first base. I believe my angry verbatim response actually was “You don’t get out much, do you?” Great minds think alike.
jama I’m just saying I don’t want to watch him pitch like this and I think he should go to AAA.
What I think doesn’t matter though. If the Twins feel the need to have him work it out here with Anderson then do it out of the BP please so we don’t have to wait for him to be 2-10 and have no confidence left. It is very frustrating watching a guy who used to be the next big thing struggle to hit low 90’s.
gotcha sane….still, there’s nothing Boof has done this season (sans for a freezing cold night in KC when no-one was hitting) which would make me feel any more confident with him on the mound….
And from T’s “not saying all of them” files…last time I sat in the Home Run Porch I was encountered by a group of drunken morons who thought the whole purpose of a Twins game was to swear and bounce a beach ball around…
So, “not saying all of them”, but certainly you run into questionable riff-raff in the cheaper sections as well.
If Liriano finds the plate consistantly he’s going to get hit hard. His fastball is average at best right now.
shameless,
BIG difference between finding the plate and finding the corners. Liriano’s current stuff thrown at the hands inside, or at the knees either side is good enough.
Down the middle?
You are right - hide the infielders and pay mileage to the outfielders.
Are they booing or saying Boo-urns?
John Rambo, Like your new batting line-up,, how ever don,t think Haris is quick-enough to play 3d, base,,
The other night Punto got cheers for going to second on defensive indifference, and when he slide into first on an screaming bouncer to ss he beat out. So to think because you buy tickets makes you a knowledgeable fan is nonsense. On the other hand Punto should always be cheered because he’s Gardy’s boy and gets after it and plays the right way.
Do you really get to first faster by diving than by running full speed thru the bag?
No. But as one of the commentators, and I can’t remember which one, said, sliding into first makes it more difficult for the umpire to call the play. I think it’s a stupid move. If it actually was faster, everyone would be doing it.
I would cheer Punto for getting to second base on defensive indifference…clearly he can’t get there from anything he does at the plate!
Could this be the end for Castro? The Reds sent him down. He’s 0-10 this season.
You get to first faster by running thru it, since most slides, you actually make contact with the ground first. If you would launch yourself to the base, you need to lose altitude to actually touch the base with your hands, so you in effect do a dive, attempting to touch the base with the tips of your fingers.
If you would make a perfect launch, and touch with the tips of your fingers, I suppose, it would be faster, but it would have to be a perfect launch and slide attempt.
Now Gomez is sliding into first when he gets hurt everyone will blame Punto, if Nick doesn’t slide he’s so fast he’d bust right through the right field wall like superman.
This by Torre last year who sure doesn’t know anything about baseball:
Asked how he can break Melky Cabrera of using a head-first slide into first base - always slower than running through the bag - Torre said, “Strangle him.”
Cabrera cost himself a hit in the eighth when he used the dive on a leadoff grounder.
“He has been told and will be continued to be told (not to slide),” Torre said.
here is some data about Liriano’s pitches from baseball.bornbybits.com:
He has thrown 49.5% fastballs with an average velocity of 91.6 mph and as high as 96, 11% sliders and 5% curves and 34% change ups (all secondary pitches are at average 80-82 mph).
From his results graphs it is clear that the vertical movement with the fastball is all over the place, whereas the horizontal movement is fine. Also his release point is nice and tight in all of his pitches.
A couple of observations:
He is relying more on his change up than his slider, but in 0-2, 1-2, 2-2 and 3-2 counts he is throwing 17, 20, 25 and 50% sliders, which means that he still thinks that its his out pitch (which is a good thing)
The issue of the vertical location wildness with the fastball can be caused by a couple of different things (since his release point is tight): grip and wrist movement. Both of them are workable but I highly suspect that it is more of an issue of a wrist movement (like he is trying to throw some fastballs with a slider wrist movement to get something ‘extra’, which results in the ball bottoming out of the strike zone).
Just kinks he has to work on.
As far as who gets send down/out when Slowey is healthy, I think that Boof should move to the bullpen (the weight loss did not improve his durability and he would be a fine reliever for 2-3 innings with his stuff) and Rincon should be traded. His value is at the highest point it has been the last year or so (1.05 WHIP), there are several bullpen starving NL teams and there are enough bullpen arms in Rochester if there is an emergency need…
just my 2 (long) cents…
Maybe after seeing Punto’s “success” at head first slides, we will start to see head first slides this summer in events like the 100M dash. That would be exciting… might be a few burns, but hey — if it’s for the gold?
I think Mike Redmond should consider a head first slide when he gets half-way to first.
I’d like to know the basis for his assertion that blog commentators are mere crazy fans ….
Do you read some of the comments posted around here?
nice clipping of a partial quote, mmm…
what I want to know is his basis for asserting that the commenters–crazy fans as they may be–are not also paying customers.
thrylos98…
Thanks for the interesting stats.
My suspicion was that his release point was changing inning to inning, whereas this data seems to say he has that well under control. I still have the suspicion that his delivery and follow through were off and changes between pitches and between hitters.
I also like the fact that he started his last game looking great. It seems to indicate that he has it in him and just needs to get consistent. Don’t know how much of this could be mental or not, but I still suspect he might be thinking about his arm. I look for a much improved Frankie by the all star break.
I am in the camp of those that feel he needs to be around Rick Anderson and would not be helped by the minors. Anderson knows what he is talking about and the pitchers seem to believe and accept that. Not sure they would at a different level. The trick is to get enough out of Frankie in these starts so we don’t sacrifice games. First two were borderline… not horrific games, but marginally winable when you walk 5 guys in 5 innings.
If you are listening Gardy, I vote to keep Frankie up here.
And, Reussie, doubt that you would have read this whole blog… but, put me down as a flex-20 game season ticker holder. Thanks.
thrylros98…..
Those numbers are rather encourageing but what I see is a totally different pitcher…..I hope it works out but watching it now sucks!
So, “not saying all of them”, but certainly you run into questionable riff-raff in the cheaper sections as well.
You’re right. You do. And I never called the fans “riff-raff”. I said the fans I end up sitting near in the more expensive seats seem less interested.
It’s not nearly as bad as some of the fans at the Saints games. The ones that show up half way through the 4th, spend half the game getting up to get food and use the bathroom mid AB…then leave before the 8th when it’s still 2-2.
Katie,
Nothing to fear. I wasn’t trying to encourage people,
The only thing bothering me about these comments is the utter lack of tickets being offered to me. 
On the subject of fans: When the Twins have a runner on 1st Base, and the pitcher throws to 1st to keep the runner close, the fans in the Dome always start to Boo. Drives me nuts.
I swear some of these people have never seen a game in their lives. Regarding Liriano - I would send him to Rochester for at least a month. The Minor Leagues are for player development. By definition, if you are on the Major League Roster, you should be ready to help the team win. IMO, Liriano isn’t there yet.
Short Ornery Norwegian,
I don’t get it.
Are they booing because the end of the game is coming too slowly?
They can leave anytime they want.
The gates are not locked.
Regarding Liriano.
I agree totally.
ATTENTION! In 20 minutes, PBS will broadcast a special on Roberto Clemente.
MC - I happen to be partial to Cargo Agogo. 
Kevin Slowey pitching rehab for Fort Myers Miracle tonight. his line:
IP H R ER BB SO HR ERA
Slowey 3.0 1 1 1 1 5 1 3.00
So, the Twins may soon have an excess starting pitcher.
And when Crain can go back to back, they’ll soon have an excess bullpen pitcher?
I’d hate to lose Bass, but what are they going to do? They need right-handed batting power.
Kevin Slowey, making his first of two scheduled rehab appearances for the Miracle, tossed three innings, allowing one run on one hit, with a walk and five strikeouts. Slowey looked sharp with his command firing an unofficial 49 pitches, 35 for strikes.
Sorry,
The Slowey story was cut and pasted fom the Miracle website.
Pat Borzi over at MinnPost has an interesting take on the Liriano question:
If his next three or four starts aren’t any better than his first two, Gardenhire said Liriano will go back to the minors.”
Quote from the linked story above:
http://www.minnpost.com/patborzi/2008/04/21/1582/twins_feel_need_to_baby-sit_liriano_and_keep_him_on_task
I was just gonna say no matter who the pitcher is and what the situation is, if he loses command of his FB then he either goes to the BP or the minors.
I agree with Blyleven now. He should have developed for 5 or 6 games in the minors. Hindsight allows that he SHOULD have been in a situation where he didn’t have to “pitch good” to succeed. He’s probably putting too much pressure on himself trying to instantly succeed. But that’s moot now.
Unfortunately we won’t be able to watch him on TV his next two games.
Would be 2008 World Series Champs
The lineup that could have been:
Tolbert, 2B
Mauer, C
Cuddy, RF
Morneau, 1B
Hunter, CF
Young, LF
Kubel, DH
Harris, SS
Lamb, 3B
The rotation that could have been:
Santana
Blackburn
Baker
Hernandez
Liriano
Thanks for the interesting link, GBG.
It doesn’t leave me very optimistic regarding Liriano.
sane says:
April 20th, 2008 at 6:27 pm
“It’s not like he got lit up in his first two starts.”
Yes, but he was wild in and out of the strike zone. IMO he is going to fail temporarily whether at MLB or AAA.
He should be allowed to fail where his teammates don’t have so much riding on his wins and losses.
I don’t believe I will retract any of that.
Liriano will be fine. Once he starts throwing strikes of course, which he was in the spring. this is likely a mental thing for him right now. Anyway the Twins have scored what, 1 or 2 total runs in his two starts. If he got a few runs I think we’d see him relax a bit. He’s still got a good fastball, slider and change. Right now I’m way more worried about Boof than Liriano….
I do like the idea of Liriano being up with the club and being able to work with Anderson every day, but as much as I hate to admit it, he is the weakest link in the rotation right now. And judging by Gardy’s comments in the link supplied by Sane, Liriano is proving himself to be something of a head case. They brought him up more to keep an eye on him than anything else.
I’m thinking that Liriano gets sent down when Slowey is ready to come back. And he stays down until he shows drastic improvement or somebody else gets hurt.
As far as Boof goes, is there any proof that his later inning problems are endurance related? Maybe opposing batters are getting a good look at him early on, then figuring him out and lighting him up later. Maybe it’s just a matter of him not changing things up more as the game progresses.
Hey is Scott Klingebeck available for the rotation???
Howard, What was the team’s average age in 1984? I’d guess it was similar to this year’s team.
Shep…..They sold our World Series potential down the road with Santana!
This trade will be terrible if Liriano can’t make a recovery, and Guerra doesn’t pan out.
The trade will be even worse if Liriano starts to look like his old self this year……Two power pitchers is the ultimate recipee for post season success! Thanks for the BS billy smuck
shep,
If you add the current performances of Liriano, Lamb, Young, Livan and Tolbert to a 3rd place, 17 games behind, 2007 Twins team, you won’t become WS champs.
Compare that lineup to the Red Sox.(2007 or 2008)
shep,
Sorry.
I forgot Harris and Blackburn.
That would help.
5-1 in games you’ve attended…..move over rally monkey.:-)
I’m not sure the world is ready for the “Rally Howard”.
nice clipping of a partial quote, mmm…
I was going for the humor and the other part didn’t fit the funny.
I’m 4-1. My Guess is you went to the first KC game I missed that one.
What is with all of the Punto supporters? Yes, defense is critical to win games, but we also need RUN SUPPORT! We can’t have another poor run-production season like ‘07. Our pitchers are pulling their weight, our defense will always be reliable, it’s all about the offense for us to compete.
Also, I’m partial to the nickname “Cargo A-Gogo”
