A lesson from (gulp) Hank Steinbrenner
Posted on April 23rd, 2008 – 1:03 AMBy Howard
I’ve been reading blogs and comments, here and elsewhere, and so far this season I’ve seen suggestions that Lamb&Everett ought to be returned to Houston by spaceship, that Monroe ought to be cut loose as soon as possible, that Liriano is currently unfit for a major-league uni, that Morneau is going to kill his team (an opening series rant), that Tolbert should get 500 ABs, that Joe Vavra should be fired, that the bullpen reeks … and so on.
I know that my frustration with Oof Onser and Jesse Crain has been quick trigger too.
Then I read this week’s Hank Steinbrenner rant. You know, the Joba Chamberlain thing where he said: “I want him as a starter and so does everyone else, including him, and that is what we are working toward and we need him there now. There is no question about it, you don’t have a guy with a 100-mile-per-hour fastball and keep him as a set-up guy. You just don’t do that. You have to be an idiot to do that.”
But Hank’s screed reminded me that, as tempting as a bad stretch makes it, 20 games into the season isn’t the time to pass final judgment.
Just a thought.
other people are here too
59 Responses to "A lesson from (gulp) Hank Steinbrenner"
And conversely, things are looking better for the Twins than most would have thought. Things like the bullpens for Chicago and Detroit, aging players for Detroit and Cleveland and Chicago, the Twins good starting staff, etc.
And all of this could be misleading too.
A good time for a reality check could be May 12th, the day the Twins finish their 4-game series with Boston — the last 2 games being on ESPN.
So, we’ll see.
It’s a scary thing to have to use Hank Steinbrenner’s words to back up your point…but when you’re right, you’re right!
In my defense, Monroe was looking an aweful lot like Rondell White in his first few weeks as a Twin.
Provided he hadn’t gotten many ABs, but coming off a poor year and starting off real slow just gets me all riled up.
Because the whole White thing was (to intentionally understate) a big disappointment. Twins sign him after some good years with Detroit, he stinks it up for 2, and we find out he was on ‘Roids just before he signed with the Twins.
But now Monroe had three hits, 3RBI, and I’m willing to see if that means his bat is back or not.
This team is going to need a year or so before it’s a contender. But they’ve shown an ability to play competitively thus far.
They’ve only *knock wood* lost two series thus far. That’s not bad.
It will be interesting as the year goes on.
1-How large is Gomez’ learning curve?
2-How good is Young?
3-How solid are our starters?
4-Are Crain and Rincon back?
5-Will Mauer hit and add power?
6-Will people stay healthy?
If the season answers yes to these, we’ll have a decent year. Look out for the Twins in 09 and 10.
I’m looking at the record after 20 games: 10-10. I can live with that. In fact, I’m pretty happy with that.
I’m very happy with 10-10. that’s better than I would have guessed.
Also, Hank Steinbrenner is probably right. Joba has always been a starter, and a very dominating starter. Doesn’t he have more value pitching 7 innings every fifth day, or one inning every two or three days? That’s pretty simple, and yet I understand them wanting to keep his innings down.
When the top hitters last night are three who were struggling (Monroe, Lamb and Young), its a great morning after!
I think that the fact that Varva should be fired is a conclusion made after a couple of years of observation and lack of results and not after just 20 games 
Great game last night, I just hope that Gardy doesn’t sit Monroe for Span tonight…
It definitely seems like Joba Chamberlain should be starting games, but the question I would ask Hank Steinbrenner: why even bother to have “baseball” people (Girardi, Cashman) in your organization if you’re going to undermine their baseball decisions?
Joe Vavra should be fired. I don’t know of any players that gave him credit for the magical 2006 season. That was what it was… a magical season… the kind that if we would have won the world series would have went down in the history of baseball. However if you look at the team’s low on base percentage, the total lack of power, the in ability to hit and run this is a team philosophy problem, this is a team coaching problem, and this is something that if you look at the Oaklands, California, Detroit, Boston, Toronto (in there hey day) and St. Louis, NY, and Philly in the NL…
It’s not so much the slugging percentages of those teams though they were all higher… it’s the consistant on base percentages from the last 10 years on those teams that are higher.
Tolbert is proving that he has a great eye at the plate. So let him get the atbats. Punto is somehow not stinking the place up at the plate so I’m quieting down on that. When a major leaguer earns his keep I’m ok with that.
Joe Vavra however lead his offense to being shut out more than any other team in baseball last year, shutout twice so far this season (though once was a great pitcher pitching great). The team still can’t seem to develop much in power. I’ve noticed some more hit and runs early this season than all of last year, but overall… Vavra is not doing a very good job. The team doesn’t drive in runs, and it doesn’t manufacture runs, and when you have as many 4 to 10 pitch innings by the opposing pitcher… that is not being aggressive, that is being stupid. The best way to attack a pitcher in today’s game is to make them have to pitch. Not many are capable of doing it… and that way if you get 2-3 walks, and a single, you get two runs… now with the Twins you need 4 singles to score two runs if you’re lucky.
I gotta agree with Hank, actually. I think Joba should be a starter right now. I thought he should be a starter coming into the year.
I also think that Howard is smart enough to know that some of our comments aren’t based on this year alone, but on last year and careers (e.g., my opinion on Monroe is based on his career, not this year’s performance).
Otoh, there are plenty of posters (probably me included) that get excited one way or the other.
Otth (on the third hand), if we don’t jibber jabber about what is happening so far, what should we jibber jabber about?
One thing I have to say for anyone willing to listen: Lamb is going to hit. Sooner rather than later. (actually he did really well last night). Just have a little bit of patience. I’m from Houston, so I have seen a lot of him the last few years. And he is just a pure, good hitter. Houston fans were outraged that he didn’t get more playing time. The only reason was because his defensive skills weren’t great. But he has lost a good bit of weight in the offseason, and he looks solid at third this year. The Lamb we knew at Houson was a lot more pudgier.
Sorry for the rant, but I really have a lot of faith in this guy.
BC, I think that is more related to the terrible job by the front office in drafting and developing players.
Plus, specifically with this unit, you have no SS who can hit, a LF and CF that are still learning the game (though the LF’s stats are beginning to bother me), a 3B who has never been a regular….they aren’t exactly built to be great on O at this point.
I’d give Vavra this year to prove or disprove he can help hitters be better. So far, I’d agree, the evidence is against him, but I think he deserves 1 more year.
It’s amazing the Twins are 10-10. I hope (don’t believe) that the pitching can hold up because the hitting is PAthetic. It’s not even just the lack of power. The main problem is they strikeout all the time and don’t walk. Take some pitches! To be 10-10 when you don’t have a Number ONE starter, have a leadoff hitter with 2 walks and 24 strikeouts, haven’t fielded the ball well overall as a team and have 1 more HR than Chase Utley is amazing.
the problem with gomez is this….. less than 90 at bats and he has what, 23 or so strikeouts? as electrifying as this guy may be, it’s hard to be a ‘game changer’ when you can’t get on base…. someone has to take this guy aside and give him a reality check. i want him to do great things, but get him a hitting coach!!
Mike.
We don’t have a choice but to watch Vavra this year. So I am forced to be with you on this one.
Rick.
We knew going in that Gomez was going to strike out a lot, and that he was not going to be a prototypical leadoff hitter.
He is an electric player, and the only way to make him a better player is to get him atbats. In the leadoff spot he is going to get plenty of atbats.
We are 10-10. I didn’t expect this team to ever hit the .500 winning percentage after the 3rd game of the season. Seriously I just didn’t so at this point in time I’m freaking thrilled with the team overall.
And just remember people we have Joe Vavra teaching Gomez how to be a “better hitter” Does anyone feel ok with that?
BC, seems you like to complain just for the sake of complaining. Lighten up, the Twins are a good team and will be fun to watch this year.
Everett and Monroe are guaranteed to be terrible. They shouldn’t have been acquired in the first place.
Remember Morneau credited Vavra with turning his game around. The guy can’t be that bad. Some people just don’t like to listen to teaching *cough*Gomez*cough*
The Twins are awesome….yay
Go Twins…yay
We rock…yay
Oh, by the way, I hopped in my car this morning and turned on KFAN hoping to hear if the Twins held on for the win last night…an hour later, no mention of the score….it’s all Vikings, all the time…
Monroe threw a little curve in our assumptions last night…as for Lamb, Jeff, you better not be blowing smoke up there because so far all we’ve seen out of your Astro rejects is garbage.
Point taken Howard i’m one of those guys who tends to jump to conclusions to early in the season. I do however have a lot of respect for Gardy and the rest of the Twins staff they have forgotten more then i will ever know about the game.
Great game by Monroe last night i wonder what they plan to do with him when Cuddy comes back.
BC–
The same thing they’ll do with him tonight–sit him on the bench.
BC of ND,
I do it too — and I just have to remind myself that sometimes a bit of chill is needed. That’s why it’s great to have the Steinbrenners in the house so I can ask myownself, “Are you THAT guy?”
BC of ND,
“If I coach Ohio State football this year and Gopher football next year, will I be a better coach this year?
How much will my IQ go down next year?”
“Sane if you left Ohio State to go to the UofM your IQ may have hit rock bottom already.”
I am still laughing at that. There is nothing like getting shot down in flames and laughing hysterically all the way to the ground.
LOL Howard I think we all have a little of “That guy” in us. A lot of us were arguing with sane yesterday regarding Vavra and i thought about what he was trying to say and while i still think he’s not helping matters i honestly don’t think it’s fair to put all the blame on him.
Wow thanks sane see above i enjoyed our discussion yesterday and i wanted you to know i do respect your opinions.
“if you left Ohio State to go to the UofM your IQ may have hit rock bottom already.”
One of the great lines on any of these blogs ever.
It hurts an offense more to have a leadoff man with a .250 OBP than anything.
Henceforth, my rant to put Span in CF begins….
Gomez is struggling a little yes, but is there any other player you get more excited for when he steps up to the plate?
and Span in CF just makes me go eh. He maybe is a more patient hitter, but he has ZERO power potential, the best he’s gonna do is get a double on a ground ball down the line. He hasn’t looked polished in the OF either, and I’ll label his throwing motion as a ‘chicken wing’ that throws a ball that nobody is afraid to run on.
Span never developed into the CF option the twins were hoping, and he’s not gonna change the fact that Gomez IS.
No span for gomez moves please, thats ludicrous in my opinion.
mike wants wins,
“if you left Ohio State to go to the UofM your IQ may have hit rock bottom already.”
“One of the great lines on any of these blogs ever.”
mike,
I am even proud to be the victim of THAT line!!
Gomez is struggling a little yes, but is there any other player you get more excited for when he steps up to the plate?
Horrendous, little-league quality at-bats don’t really do it for me. Perhaps when Gomez’s (non-bunting) chances of actually making contact improve to, let’s say, 25% or so, then maybe I’ll start to get excited.
I’m not going to be “that guy” and start questioning Gomez too early but i would like to see him either take a day off or move down in the order. Hows this for a line up tonight.
Harris 2B
Tolbert SS
Mauer C
Morneau 1B
Young LF
Kubel DH
Monroe RF
Buscher 3B
Span or Gomez CF
BC of ND
So Lamb gets 3 hits last night and you have him on the bench for tonight?
Charlie I would put Lamb or Buscher in there i like both of them the lineup was more about moving gomez down or sitting him for a game.
“Joe Vavra should be fired.”
And hire who? The Twins like to hire from within, and Paul Molitor didn’t want it. Tony O wouldn’t want it. Rod Carew probably still wouldn’t want it. Ron Coomer? (Ha, had to throw that in there)
Unless they were to go out an get Don Baylor, I see now purpose in firing Vavra.
I would put Monroe in CF for 1 game and let Mauer DH tonight. Let Red have a game behind the plate and Mauer can catch tomorrow.
Speaking of fired, former Terry Ryan disciple and Reds GM Wayne Krisky got the boot today.
Having runners on second and third with no outs and in the nineth no runs score is pathetic showing for our 1-2-3!!!!
“Joe Vavra should be fired.” And hire who?
You would probably have to look outside the organization for a hitting coach who values pulling the ball and being aggressive more than slap hits to the other side or taking pitches, and had shown a documented increase in his team’s slugging percentage once was hired. HoJo would be a great hitting coach, for example.
I know the Twins like to promote within, but this is the root of the problem with an organization quasi-obsessed with pseudo-fundamentals. This is not a ML club problem, but an organizational problem as a whole for the Twins and unless there are changes in this respect all the Twins’ fans can hope for are ALDS loses, which is the best this manager and his coaching staff has delivered.
Mauer should lead off. He’s a singles hitter that gets one base at a reasonably high rate.
seems Hank has the same attitude as many of the mindless morons that come to dome…carrying beach balls?!??! C’mon, this is a BASEBALL game (I wrote in large letters and spelled it out orally for you bunch of unmentionables). If you come to a BASEBALL game, you don’t bring beach balls…unless you meant to play in the street or on the freeway? Don’t do it — and if you are a student, coming for the half-price tickets…the beer is still full-price, and you still have to behave like a human, so leave the booze outside — or, a better idea? Drink someplace else and watch on television!! Those of us who attend EVERY GAME don’t appreciate your fighting, your throwing of objects onto the fans below, your swearing, and your general disrespectful attitude towards anyone and anything. You paid for the game — watch it.
End of rant…for the moment.
As contemptible as Hank’s father George seemed during his prime, it was a ton of fun to be a witness to it all. Hank’s got some of the same bluster. There are never enough public figures in sports who are willing to consistently provide us with remarks driven by anger-induced stupidity. I think Hank has great potential on that count, but he’ll need to find his Billy Martin to entertain thoughts of matching his father in that regard.
thrylos98: i agree the farm system is and has been lacking run producing hitters for some time. morneau, cuddy, kubal have all been around for 3-5 yrs.
the last 3 yrs have been dead for hitting prospects coming up to the twins. if i accept the premise that vavra is an great coach he should be at the rookie camp or a/aa ball helping develop some young talent. it has been stated on here many times he doesn’t have that much to do up here these guys should all know how to hit before they get here. let him work in the minors and sign don zimmer to sit on the bench and be the hitting coach. actually i kind of like the idea of don baylor who ever brought that up.
the prospect of Varva working with hitting prospects, just gives me the chills…
If i was the hitting coach i would sit Carlos down and say look at your AB’s from last nights game. In this AB you swung at three pitches that were low and away can you tell me why? Then you go from there in trying to figure out what the problem is. I think it’s part inexperience and part just not having a good hitters eye and i don’t think you can fix the latter.
Mauer’s career SLG is better than Cuddyer and second only to Morneau on this team. (full disclosure: not including Tolbert because he’s got a whopping 35 career ABs)
Mauer should lead-off, not because he’s a singles hitter, but because his OBP is 50 points better than anyone else with the club.
We should just take comfort in the fact that at the end of the day the batting order doesn’t make much difference.
A high BA will help your SLG.
A single is better than an out when calculating SLG.
Unless they were to go out an get Don Baylor, I see now purpose in firing Vavra.
There’s always SOMEBODY that needs to have their head rolling when the team is struggling.
2008 is Vavra, who’s this year’s Punto, who was last year’s White, who was 2006’s Ulger…
It goes on and on. Sometimes it’s legitimate, and sometimes it’s looking for a target to point fingers at.
Thrylos98- You are spot on in your assessment of the Twins hitting Philosophy as a whole.The Twins as an organization are stuck in a bygone era style approach to hitting.
There is still a time and a place for hitting the ball the other way and moving the runner over,but teams that win consistantly develope(and pay)power.Times and Philosophy’s sometimes need to change,or at least be reevaluated.The Twins track record in developing hitters over the last decade or more should make that obvious.
Doug Munson,
“a place for hitting the ball the other way and moving the runner over”
That place is Anaheim, California and the Angels do exactly the same thing as the Twins, but with much better hitters executing it.
“teams that win consistantly develope(and pay)power.”
Key word is PAY.
That why small market teams don’t play slugger vs. slugger games with big market teams. Sluggers demand big salaries. The “move the runner” philosophy is required when you have 2 or 3 power hitters and the Sox, Yanks and Tigers have 9 or 10.
The Twins have 7-8 starters that have to “move the runner”, the Tigers have one (Polanco) or two.
The Twins, A’s, Marlins and many other teams do what they have to do if they can’t (won’t) spend with the rich guys.
Key word is PAY.
That why small market teams don’t play slugger vs. slugger games
It’s more than that with the Twins. It’s organizational philosophy. David Ortiz made $1.25 mil with the Red Sox his first year after the Twins let him go. I bet that he would have gladly signed a 5 year contract @ $3mil per year at that point (which might have been enough to bring the Twins a WC or 2 in the 2000s), but the Gardy regime had other things in mind…
it is that simple. Cleveland is a small market, Oakland is a small market, Atlanta is a small market, Colorado is a small market, Arizona is a small market, the Marlins behave like they are a small market, but for some reason they have all been more successful than the Twins the last 17 years…
Cleveland is a small market, Oakland is a small market, Atlanta is a small market, Colorado is a small market,
how many world series wins here? not that world series championships are why i follow my team, but as i pointed out to a cub friend of mine, even if you win the world series this year, i only have to go back 21 years to have 2. And as a twins fan i won’t have to wait 100 years for another championship..unless selig gets in the way, again.
P.S. there’s no such thing as ’small market’ in mlb, just small thinking ownership-they ALL have money.It’s just how they want to spend it. We chose to spend it to have the best AA pitching staff this year. I’m sure I’ll remember that next year
go twins
centill,
Money is part of it but its more than money. Its organizational philosophy. The Twins could have singed Ortiz for less money per year than what they singed Punto for. That resulted getting in the 2003 ALDS with Matt LeCroy as the DH. Not money, just incompetence…
thrylos,
If the Twins had kept Ortiz, they would still be several sluggers short of the Yanks, Sox and Tigers.
Ortiz plus Morneau plus Cuddy? does not equal
A-rod plus Jeter plus Matsui plus Giambi plus Abreu plus Posada plus Cano.
or Manny plus Lowell plus Youkilis plus Varitek plus Ortiz (or replacement) plus
Drew.
T- Joe Vavra is awesome man. I’m so wrong. I was wrong last year lambasting him, and lamenting the Twins ignorance when it came to hiring a hitting coach, and after tonight’s amazing offensive shutout… our 3rd in 20 games which puts us on pace for almost 25 times we will be shut out this season on top of the was it league leading 17 times last year?
Tell me about 2006 again and how Vavra was the man… the guru, the genius, and how I’m just complaining to read myself type!
I’m negative I admit that, but I’m also right a lot more than I’ll ever get credit for because no one likes to hear that they are wrong.
Being a homer is cute if your last name is Simpson, or your team is the Yankees. Being a Homer in Minnesota doesn’t say a whole lot. We have 40-60% of the Timberwolves fans that don’t think we should get rid of Kevin McHale, or Randy Wittman, and apparently 91% of the people that voted in the Vikings move today think it’s the greatest move the team has ever made. With the Wild, they didn’t choke, we’ll get em next year. Joe Mauer isn’t a great defensive version of Brian Harper… he’s the second coming of Christ. It’s not McHale, Taylor, or Wittman’s fault… it was Kevin Garnett’s fault. It wasn’t the Vikings Quarterback’s fault, it was Randy Moss’ fault… It wasn’t Brad Childress’ fault for the Team not making the playoffs the last two years after we made it with Mike Tice whom most people thought was stupid… it’s the scheduler’s fault… they have Joe Vavra’s 2nd cousin twice removed Darrel Bevil as an offensive Coordinator.
It’s not Randy Wittman’s fault that Jefferson averaged 1.3 assists a game this year… It’s the players’ fault.
Joe Vavra isn’t a lousy hitting coach… it’s all 12 offensive players that suck in 2007 and 2008… plus all the minor leaguers too!
So you have my apologies T. I was wrong. I see the error of my ways. I’m just bitching and complaining for no reason at all.
But the one thing that I will admit to… I’m a Minnesota Masochist because I still love my teams despite the people that run them, and the morons that coach them.
our 3rd in 20 games which puts us on pace for almost 25 times we will be shut out this season on top of the was it league leading 17 times last year?
Using your powers of projection, then Delmon Young won’t hit a homer all year, the Tigers will finish dead last in the division, etc….
There’s legitimatly being negative, and then there’s looking for things to complain about.
The hitting struggled before Vavra got here, and it’s continuing to struggle after he was hired.
Vavra didn’t break anything, but he sure isn’t fixing anything.
But here’s the other funny thing, the Twins have been shut out three times, but they’ve also scored 6 or more runs 4 times. (12 once and 9 another even) yet I don’t see anybody projecting that stat for any sort of biased argument.
That’s the problem I’ve got. It’s the players excellence when they succeed, but Vavra’s fault when they fail.
Meanwhile if a pitcher struggles it’s all his fault, while a successful outing can be attributed to the teflon-coated Rick Anderson. (I didn’t notice anybody calling for his head when the bullpen blew three leads on that last road trip).
It’s not the Vavra-bashing specifically. It’s the inconsistency of the fan base that gets me.
The Twins could have singed Ortiz for less money per year than what they singed Punto for.
The David Ortiz argument is hindsight at its best. He wasn’t productive, and was constnatly injured with the Twins. The Red Sox took a big chance signing him on the cheap and it worked out.
If it had been the reverse, and the Twins had signed a cheapie “broken” Ortiz from the Red Sox it would’ve been treated like the White, Batista, Lamb, Ortiz, Ponson…etc signings.
Then he would’ve succeeded (or not, who knows) and everybody would’ve totally forgotten it.
Well, I saw the Rock Cats put up 15 yesterday- Luke Hughes had 2 bombs- Help on the Way? (Followed by Franklin’s Tower)But I agree with those of you who are frustrated with the offense- it does to go beyond Joe Vavra- it’s an organizational philosophy. I don’t really mind the K’s, but what’s frustrating is that there are no compensating HR’s or BB’s It’s almost as if there’s a sign up in the clubhouse that says “A walk isn’t even remotely close to being as good as a hit. I only caught a few innings last night, but lots of short AB’s. I am prepared for a building year this season, but I fear as long as Gardy is at the helm the anti patience ethic will reign supreme. Maybe we could sign Nathan Gerbe- he can score…
