Remember when some people missed these guys?
Posted on May 21st, 2008 – 9:13 AMBy Howard
Much was made earlier in the season — as if the season is THAT far along — about the fine work being done by former Twins pitchers.
Well, considering one of them is on the mound at the Dome tonight, I figured you might want an update:
First of all, there’s Carlos Silva, the Mariners’ $12 million man. These days he has numbers that would make Juan Rincon cringe. After getting smacked around by Detroit last night 7 earned runs in 4 innings), Carlos has 0-3 with a 9.30 ERA in his last four starts. That’s 21 earned runs on 33 hits in 20 innings, for those of you still remembering the bulletins about how well he was doing for the Mariners. By the way, his team bites too.
More than a few teams were wondering if they’d miss something by letting Kyle Lohse go unclaimed untiol almost the end of spring training, when the Cardinals signed him. After a 3-3, 2.36 start, our Kyle has returned to door-busting form. He’s 1-3 in his last four starts with an 8.22 ERA — 21 earned runs on 30 hits in 23 innings.
And there’s tonight’s Texas starter, the supposedly new-and-improved Sidney Ponson. Last night, at the end of the Twins broadcast, someone was going on about how Sidney is doing for the Rangers what the Twins had hoped he’d do for them in his brief stay last season. Well, you can fool some of the batters some of the time (which the Twins have proved too often) but after three solid starts, Sidney’s last two have shown the Sid that we remembered and rejected: 10 1/3 innings, 16 hits, 13 runs (9 earned), 5 walks, 3 strikeouts. In his five starts, the Rangers have scored 40 runs for him, by the way.
Nick Blackburn, you’re 5-2 after tonight, pal.
other people are here too
49 Responses to "Remember when some people missed these guys?"
Please, Howard… you’re going to upset those fickle baseball gods with stuff like this. Have you learned nothing from JoeC this year? If Ponson shuts down the Twins tonight, it’s all on you, pal!
I like our starters. Who’d-a thunk the starting staff would be this strong without Liriano or Baker? When those two arrive, look out.
JC — I’m goin’ right after ‘em, just like Perkins did last night.
Ponson got a haircut and a new uniform, but he’s still serving up the same meat.
graphic!
JimC
If Howard had that kind of power Juan Rincon would be a STUD.
Silva will never be worth the money he got. He’s way too inconsistant. We’ve were introduced to the concept of “Zito Money” a few years back. Well now we’ve got “Silva Money” representing a slot just below that.
Livan has stepped into Silva’s role and excelled. He’s doing for the Twins what Silva should be doing for Seattle, at what…a third of the cost?
Yeah, the Twins be pitchin and the Twins be hittin, but they be making too many errors. And I worry about the bullpen.
Ok, so I don’t miss any of those guys, especially Ponson and Loshe - although I do miss BG’s “Sidney Ponson’s Diary” posts. Silva had some good moments for us (complete game shut out) and seemed like a nice enough guy, so I won’t say anything bad about him. What about other non-pitcher former Twins? Dougie Baseball? Guzman? Hunter? Rivas? Jones? Ummm… Terry Tiffee? *shudders* Ok, maybe not him…
C Mathewson
I agree, It is very shocking how good our pitching rotation is doing I agree. Continuing with what you had mentioned though, when Baker returns, who will our 5 man rotation be, how about later down the road when Liriano returns? Any comments on what our SP rotation will be like when one or both of these pitchers returns? Would Boof go to the pen?
(I think this is why we should trade Livan at all star break, if our young pitchers are still consistent).
“Please, Howard… you’re going to upset those fickle baseball gods with stuff like this. Have you learned nothing from JoeC this year? If Ponson shuts down the Twins tonight, it’s all on you, pal!”
Funny stuff…I think Joe C. is done “proclaiming” things for a while…(how is that Tigers running away with the division thing working out?)
The Twins better get to Ponson tonight and win this third game so we don’t have to worry about whatever b-squad lineup Gardy trots out there tomorrow. The bigger story, though, is Texas pitching in general. Nothing soothes an ailing offense like Texas pitching.
The last time Blackburn faced Texas, the Twins spotted him five runs before he gave them all back the very next inning…he then settled down and the Twins lost in extras.
I hopped in my car after golf league last night and heard the Twins were up 9-0 and was thinking Cuddy must have broken out of his slump….much to my dismay, still no yardwork for Cuddy or D. Young…but it nice to get healthy off some Texas pitching; let’s hope Ponson keeps the trend going tonight.
And yes Howard, it’s on you if Sidney pitches an inspired gem.
Garza is doing alright.
I must have missed who was pining for those guys earlier in the season?
JP,
To be honest I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to have Guzman back right now versus Adam Everett. So far this season Guzzie is batting .311 with an OPS of .792! That would rank THIRD behind Mauer and Morneau, not too shabby. In the field he has made an equal number of errors in twice as many games. Guzzies RF is a little lower than Everett’s but I’d much rather have Guzzie’s production at the plate.
Jeff,
Garza is 2-1, 4.86 — not exactly “I’m showing them” numbers, either. I was trying to limit it to guys who were set free (or left via free agency), as opposed to those who were traded.
A certain Mr. Hunter and his 5 homers, .483 slugging, and 24 RBIs might not be bad to have either (although I admit to loving what Gogo does for us…)
“I must have missed who was pining for those guys earlier in the season?”
Good point!
Hows that Santana kid doing? boy i’m glad we got rid of his sorry butt.
I won’t miss Hunter and Santana if you will please send me a check for the $240 million that the Angels and Mets are missing.
Please address the check to:
Sane
at the
French Riviera
Let me go a bit controversial here…
Santana has been very good for the Mets so far, very typical of what he did with the Twins. I believe he has five wins to this point and an ERA around 3. How many Wins would he have with the Twins at this point? How many wins would he have helped the Twins get?
I’m not going to back this statistically at all, but just theorizing… Has Carlos Gomez already helped the Twins to more wins than Johan would have been able to? I would argue that when Gomez is in the lineup, the Twins have done better and in several cases, he has had a very direct effect on the Twins wins.
Meanwhile, starting pitching has not been the Twins problem at all. In fact, which Twins starter would not be in the rotation if Santana was still here? Probably Nick Blackburn… and how is he doing so far?
In other words, this is a perfect illustration of why giving crazy years and dollars to any one player makes no sense.
Thank you Seth.
Yep, no place for a Cy Young winner on this team
Please note - That was in no way a negative about Santana…
Seth your right having Santana as our Ace would not have helped our rotation at all especially after the All star break. The Met’s were stupid and have no chance of making any money off of him.
yea we invested that $240 million in Morneau, Cuddyer, Lamb, Everett, and the rest goes into the Pohlad’s general fund.
Umm, as a Twins fan, I’ll take Hunter and Santana please (although Morneau was a must, of course)
Seth’s right….how would you even make room for Santana in this rotation?
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The first year after the Nationals signed him, Guzman had a major league low batting average, below .100 I think. Then he got hurt and missed the entire next season. Yes, he is off to a good spring but it was either that or adios. I read somewhere that Dougie baseball was playing 3rd base (!!!) for the Pirates and I believe the Tigers cut Jacque Jones.
Mientkiewicz, incidentally, has a higher average than our third baseman.
“Umm, as a Twins fan, I’ll take Hunter and Santana please”
I still prefer the cash.
I don’t think we’ve talked enough yet about Santana and the guy who used to play CF for the Twins before a future super star with my same first name started playing there and whether we should keep them or not.
What? They are already gone? OK, never mind.
Yeah, the Pirates have both Dougie and Rivas… I know Guzzie’s been injured, but I always liked him and he’s been playing so well after finally getting healthy… and Jacque was just signed by the Marlins…
Jay
Over his past 90 games(Solid sample size) He has 118 hits in 370 ABS(.319 BA) He hit .219 in 2005(I believe that was what you were referencing, couldn’t find anything lower.) That .219 is still higher than Mr. Everett’s current BA. Guzman’s OBP over that same period is .357 with 43 XBH(19 2B, 8 3B, and 6 HR)
Carlos=funny. I love talking about former players. The Twins crystal ball must have been exceptionally clear in the off season. They knew Silva would be worthless all year and that Gomez would make everyone forget about that bum who used to roam CF. They did however miss on the impact that Jason Tyner will have on our arch rival the Indians. They will rue the day he was released.
As usual, people totally miss the point being made. Seth never suggested there wouldn’t be room for Santana in the Twins rotation this year. He merely had the courage to point out that, in all likelihood, Santana’s presence would have had, thus far, a minimal effect (if any) on the Twins’ W-L record through the first 2 months of the season… and I believe he’s absolutely right.
If I were going to nitpick on anything he said, it would be his comment that Santana has been “very good” for the Mets so far. He’s been good, but that’s all. He’s had a very Santana-ish April and May. If he has a typical (for him) June and July, then we can talk about him being “very good”. So far, his stats are damn close to what they were through 2 months last season.
But there was no question about whether Santana (or Hunter for that matter) would be worth their pay in 2008… wherever they played. But there was and still is a lot of question concerning what their worth will be in 2012 and beyond.
If the Twins had found a way to keep Santana, I’m not so sure it would have been Blackburn left out of the rotation, Seth… I think, more likely, the Twins don’t go sign Hernandez. Now, I’m not saying I’d want Livan over Johan, but you do have to ask whether the Twins would have better than a 6-2 record out of Santana to this point. I doubt it.
They would also have had Span, in all likelihood, in CF. I’ll leave speculation concerning what effect that would have had on the Twins’ record to others.
Thank you Jim, I didn’t have the time to point that out to everyone!
I wasn’t comparing Guzzie to Everett, just pointing out that until this spring, he had been a huge disappointment for the Nationals and according to the Nat’s blog site
http://nats320.blogspot.com/2007/06/new-guz.html
fans were routinely calling for his head and he was being called the “worst shortstop in baseball”. If he plays today, he will have played in 46 games this year, equal to the number of games he played in 2006 and 2007 combined. I hope he has turned it around since I always considered him a great player.
Dan,
Should we have a “Bring back Guzzie” movement? We could make buttons and hats and signs and - well, actually, that sounds like a lot of work. Nevermind, maybe we should just talk about it instead - unless someone else wants to do all the work… 
JimCrikket,
I also recognize what Seth was saying, that Santana probably doesn’t increase our wins to this point by much.
My nit to pick on your post is that Santana and Hunter “would be worth their pay in 2008…wherever they played”. I have a real hard time with Hunter’s salary and can’t bring myself to agree that he is worth that amount.
My issue is that when people make it crystal clear that they don’t want to be here anymore, then I don’t want them to be here anymore.
It’s possible for people to go back and suggest that dealing with this years ago might have produced a different result with these two players. I have no quarrel with that. But, given the facts as they existed after last season, there was no way Hunter was coming back and there was no way Santana was coming back in 2009. IMO
Therefore, good bye guys. It was nice knowing you. We’re moving on without you. Hope the money buys you happiness and some good ear plugs when the fans don’t appreciate your failings.
Bringing back Guzman now is an entirely different question than whether he should have been kept all along. Keep in mind, you would have paid him over $4 million per year (Bartlett was getting the league minimum after Guzman left).
When you trade guys or let them go, sometimes those guys will end up having solid careers. Nothing wrong with that.
You release guys and replace them… you trade guys… and you hope that, on balance, you try to improve your team and not spend like drunken sailors in the process. You hope you are right more often than you are wrong. Besides Ortiz, there aren’t many guys I would look back and say, “boy the Twins sure blew that one.”
I believe Torii Hunter is something like the 6th or 7th highest paid player in baseball in 2008. Does anyone really think he’s the 6th of 7th most valuable player in the big leagues now?
by the way, Howard posted a new blog on the Santana/Gomez topic.
Jim i totally agree that it was the right move to let guzzie go ESPECIALLY in hindsight. I just thought it sure would be nice to have Guzzie NOW.
Guzman has four knocks this year. That equals the total home run output of Joe Mauer, Michael Cuddyer, Brendan Harris, Adam Everett, Delmon Young and Mike Lamb put together. And all of the aforementioned have hit 11 or more home runs during a major-league season.
That’s fine, Kleiner, if you’re playing Home Run Derby. Unless MLB has changed the rules lately, I think standings are still based on wins, not HR totals.
JimCrikket and Dan,
I agree with both of you. That said, I’m still thinking about starting the movement…
nobody is arguing santanas worth, but the twins got a good deal for him, and The rotation is in no way hurt. When BAker returns, hopefully gardy gets smart and sends Bonser to the pen or just gets rid of him.
Livan
Baker
Perkins
Blackburn
Slowey
they dont get the guys out by K’s, but they DO get the guys out and that is all that matters. We also have Mulvey surprising many, Guerra is a future ace, and Liriano is regaining his form.
Jason,
When Baker gets back, I would go with:
Livan
Baker
Blackburn
Perkins
Bonser
When Liriano is ready (sometime around the All-Star Game), I would trade Livan for a middle infielder like Barmes and have this rotation:
Baker
Blackburn
Perkins
Bonser
Liriano
Bonser is better than Slowey. He has better secondary pitches. Slowey has better movement on his fastball, but it straightens out after 75 pitches. And without the secondary stuff, he has a tough time the third time through the order. He’s either a reliever or he goes down to develop an out pitch.
Pardon me, I was under the impression that baseball had indeed changed the rules and that these new rules closely resembled those of the beloved 1959 Home Run Derby television program hosted by Mark Scott. The fact that a slap-hitting castoff is matching the combined home run total of six Twins regulars – many of whom you could reasonably assume would hit 10 or more home runs this year – should not be of concern to anyone. My apologies to the brave Americans who make MLB’s rules, many of which clearly stipulate that the standings are based on wins and not, as I’d disrespectfully suggested, on home run totals.
I don’t disagree that the the Twins could use more offense. But in the fairness I must point out that poor defense and overall sloppy team play (very unlike the twins) has probably cost the team a handful of games. Think what those extra victories would mean. We wouldn’t be so concerned with the offense.
