Bottom Feeders take out the Snakes!
Posted on June 23rd, 2008 – 8:16 AMBy Howard
After such an excellent weekend of baseball, I am willing to overlook some things: Delmon’s outfield play on Sunday and the story behind his big-inning double — Conor Jackson losing his fly ball to left field — for example, because the Twins totally throttled the Diamondbacks to run their winning streak to six games.
And after several seasons of feeling like the Twins, even in good times, were sacrificing outs at the bottom of their batting order (and near the top sometimes, too) Section 220 is calling for a celebration of the force that sparked the Arizona sweep.
That would be the Bottom Feeders, the pesky guys at the bottom of the order who sparked and continued the weekend’s big innings. They are the fish-themed successors to the Piranhas, the 2006 posse that has pretty much scattered to the winds.
In the fish universe, bottom feeders are the ones in the bottom of the water, feeding off whatever comes their way and too pesky to go away. If one of them meets misfortune, there’s another to take his place.
In the Twins universe, Bottom Feeders are the ones at the bottom third of the batting order, feeding off whatever pitches come at them and too pesky to go away. If one of them meets misfortune (Punto… Lamb… Tolbert… Everett… Macri), there’s another (and another) to take his place.
After Justin Morneau’s two-run homer brought home the 2-1 victory in the homestand opener, the Feeders had 21 hits and 15 RBI in 53 at-bats, a .396 average, in the five wins that followed. Delmon, Buscher, Macri and Harris went 12 for 30 (.400) with eight RBI against the Diamondbacks, the leaders in the NL West even though their record is one game worse than the Twins.
The Feeders started Friday night’s six-run rally against Randy Johnson and sustained the big innings in the Saturday and Sunday wins. And you have to think that Brendan Harris, batting eighth and playing shortstop, is starting to make a good case for himself as a shortstop fixture (in the way that Nick Punto did with his surprising play at third base in 2006) and that Buscher/Punto/Macri (who was returned to Roichester yesterday afternoon) at third base is moving underperforming Mike Lamb closer to the end of the bench.
Even Delmon reached base six times in three games this weekend. Yes, there are still too many dreadful at-bats and his outfield bumbles Sunday (a terrible jump on Jackson’s single in the second and the two-base error on a single in the fourth) can’t be tolerated with a team that’s hitting on most of its other cylinders right now and challenging for first place again. But find me a team out there right now without an issue.
With the Twins facing right-handers for the three games in San Diego this week, we can expect that the Bottom Feeder’s warm-up act, No. 6 batter Jason Kubel, will move from DH to left field and Young can try again to figure things out from the bench. What I hope is that young Mr. Young sees teammates who may be playing a bit above their heads right now, and who make up for their shortcomings with the kind of hustle and smarts that can trump opponents who have more of this or more of that on their rosters.
Delmon is fortunate right now that his teammates are playing at a level that allows them to carry his current lack of power and defensive mediocrity. The top of the fifth inning was an example, when (trailing 3-0, with two runs scoring because of Young’s error) Senor Smoke Free gave up two singles before Mauer picked the runner off second and Morneau started (and finished) a ground ball double play. Those are the sequences pulled off by winning teams. In the bottom of the inning, the Twins came up with their five-run rally.
Big inning, big win, big sweep.
I have trust that, in due time, Delmon will show off the skills that made him the centerpiece of the Tampa Bay trade. I really do. But if that doesn’t happen and he meets an unfortunate fate, there will be another Bottom Feeder to take his place.
other people are here too
191 Responses to "Bottom Feeders take out the Snakes!"
Six in a row now and breathing down the Sox necks again. I’m very happy with the way they’ve been playing and i’m not going to jump on the bash Delmon Young bandwagon but i do agree with everything you said.
Let’ see, the Carp. Nah. How about the Bullheads? I like that one.
When I look at the replays of all those hits in quick succession, I notice one thing: All those bottom feeders are keeping the front shoulder in and their head is down on the ball even after the ball is headed to the outfield. Delmon, on the other hand, is flying open and his head is looking toward the left center seats before the pitch is in the catcher’s glove.
Delmon Young, crappy fielding, power-lacking, strikeout machine that he is, is still an improvement over the garbage we’ve had in left field the past few years. His performance so far is completely unacceptable considering the price we paid for him, but he’s still an upgrade.
I’m absolutely loving the way Harris is hitting the ball right now. There’s no reason for Punto to get playing time at SS except as a defensive replacement.
One key to the Twins’ current success is that the lineup is well-balanced. You score a lot more runs when your 7-9 hitters aren’t automatic outs like they were in 2007.
Good call on the Bottom Feeders, Howard. This was something that was absolutely non-existent in the 2007 version of the Minnesota Twins.
And on that note, count me in as one who was a little disappointed to see our old buddy, Nick Punto, back on the roster. Here’s my thing with that…prior to his injury, Gardy basically had Punto as our everyday SS while Brendan Harris–the guy who we brought in here to ensure Punto would be nothing more than our utility guy–sat on the bench. Well, Punto returns with Harris finally on a tear (8 for his last 16). What do you suppose the chances are that Gardy sits Punto and allows our emerging young infielder to become an everyday player? Yeah, I didn’t think so either.
Pat Reusse said on the radio this morning that he is quite surprised the Twins are in the position they are in now as he had them dead and buried following the four-game sweep by the White Sox in Chicago. Not me. I predicted this NL dominance and am not surprised in the least that the demoralizing trip to Chicago earlier this month hasn’t done us in. The main reasons I thought we would roll through the NL are past interleague performances and the fact that unlike the Chicagos and Detroits, these NL squads haven’t seen our young pitchers yet.
The upcoming series with the Brewers should be fun. I spent the weekend at the in-laws in Wisconsin and on the way home yesterday listened to a Brewers talk show where fans were ripping the Cubs and saying the division is ripe for the taking. It was as though Sid Hartman’s Sunday morning audience crossed the border and became Brewers fans in the afternoon. Personally, I don’t expect to see too much Blue and Gold on hand this weekend (not like a Badgers or Packers game), but if they come, I hope they come ready to drink and lose.
Agree, Howard. I also have to say I tend to agree with Souhan’s column today (and you have no idea how rare THAT is, for me). While I wouldn’t go to the extreme that he suggests, I do think it’s time for the front office to eat a couple of their mistakes and put the best team on the field. It really bothers me to see Lamb still on the roster while Macri, who’s clearly been outplaying him, sent to Rochester just because he still has an “option” remaining (and I was very supportive of Lamb’s signing at the time). That’s just not what contending teams should be basing roster moves on.
I’m not yet going to pile on Young, however. I read someone in another thread or blog write something about Gomez’s mistakes being more tolerable than Young’s because Gomez’s were the result of trying too hard or trying to make a play or something similar. Well, I do think Young’s error Sunday was very similar.
He had a runner that was going to try to score from second on a hit in a very close game and he knew he needed to make a special kind of play to have a chance to throw out that runner. Certainly, rule #1 is “catch the ball”, so I’m not excusing the error. I’m just saying that particular error was the same sort of error that others are excusing in Gomez.
I agree, those Bottom Feeders are making a difference right now. They are the ones on base when Gomez and Casilla come up after the first inning. That’s simply something we did NOT see in 2007… men on base when the top of the order came up.
But let’s get Macri back up here and have him bring Span back with him. (Maybe Lamb and Monroe have “strained muscles” requiring DL time?) If Gardy can rotate three guys out of the group of Young, Harris, Punto, Buscher, Macri, and Span in those bottom 3 spots in the order, I’ll like the team’s chances.
Peter hits the nail on the head. As the centerpiece of a risky trade to upgrade offense, Young hasn’t fulfilled his half of the agreement.
However, when you look at Rondell White, Lew Ford, and Jason Tyner…Young’s shown he’s a better assest than any of those three.
Defensively he’s better than White (he misplays balls at times, but White would never get to them), while at his worst he’s even with Ford in the field.
But on the basepaths he’s got a better head on his shoulders than Lew ever did, and at the plate he’s an upgrade over both as well.
Tyner? Tyner wasn’t as bad offensively. But in the power department he was NEVER a threat, whereas Young still has hope for a dinger in each AB. Not to mention Tyner was a career minor leaguer where as Young’s still early in his career.
I standby the hope that this is a sophomore slump right now, and he’ll break out of it with proper guidance. Casilla has credited Vavra with his turnaround, so obviously there’s something of a disconnect with Young right now.
A trip to Rochester may be one option. Young seemed to respond when he was sat for a few games following the Royals series, perhaps a trip to Rochester would better send the message. The Twins don’t want to give up on him, but he’s gotta show he’s trying to improve his ABs.
I will be sickened if Punto is inserted into the starting shortstop position “just because.” I have been encouraged by Harris not only for his bat heating up but also by his improvement as he gets more time at short. Whatever shortcomings he may have in range can be made up for by good positioning and knowledge of the hitters and the pitching plan for them.
I really would like to see Punto anointed as the infield “super sub.” Rotate him across 2B, SS and 3b to give each of those guys a day off…use him as a late-inning defensive replacement…play him at 3rd if you feel a lefty is too tough for Buscher. He can get a lot of time without disrupting the current vibe.
Similarly, I think it is time for Span to be brought up and used as the outfield “super sub.” Just as with Punto you can get him 4 or so games/week by resting/platooning with Young, giving Gomez a day or two on the bench and resting Cuddyer.
Those two subs and whatever is left of Redmond, Monroe, Lamb, etc. make for a pretty good bench.
While I like the concept of Bottom Feeders I’d like something more definite…The Flounders (which are ocean bottom feeders), The Low Boys, etc. We can do better, I think.
Where’s Bat Girl when you need her?
Starting Punto in San Diego would be a serious baseball crime. He’s a switch hitter who can pinch-run and play three infield positions. He belongs on the bench. This is so obvious that even Gardy should understand it.
Other than suggesting LNP as an everyday player, I agree with Souhan’s column today. Mike Lamb has been a disaster. It’s time for Bill Smith to cowboy up and admit his $6.6 million mistake.
In addition to taking some pressure off Young, bringing up Span has the added benefit of freeing up Cuddy to play the occasional game at first so Morneau can get a break.
Is everybody going to freak out when Punto gets a start in the next week?
I can see Punto getting one or two starts over the next six games. One definately to make sure he’s back and ready to play. Though I sincerely hope it’s not against Peavy or Maddux (I don’t care who’s career numbers say what…best lineup goes against best pitching)
Heck, Gardy himself said Punto’s not walking into an everyday spot. Though I suppose with some people Gardy’s word ain’t worth much.
We’re entering July, so I expect the trade winds to start blowing in the next few days. The only problem for the Twins if they want to be buyers is they don’t have much in the way to offer a seller.
Is a selling team going to want a Lamb, Monroe, or Punto? Doubt it. I think even the Twins FO didn’t expect the division to be as weak as it has been this year, so now they’ve got these players on their roster and likely no easy way to get rid of them (you can only eat so much salary…not to mention simply cutting guys doesn’t really solve the problem of making room for any “big” plays in the Free Agent market)
That’s actually a good question for commentors….who on the Twins would be worth anything on the trade market?
Considering the following are untouchable:
Hitters: Mauer, Morneau, Gomez, Young (say what you will about Delmon, but they’d be stupid to give up on him after half a season)
Pitchers: Baker, Blackburn, Perkins (lefty starter), Nathan, Guerrier, Crain, Reyes/Breslow (one or other to keep Pen lefty).
Obviously on block: Lamb, Monroe, Punto, Livan. (But who’s going to want them?)
Potentially baitable: Cuddyer/Kubel (one or other), Harris, Buscher (provided they can bring in immediate replacments).
When you look at what the Twins have very little to offer at the major league level, which is where they’d need to make moves to open up spots on the roster for new aquisitions.
It’ll certainly be interesting to see what the Twins come up with. It could be that trades made this season will be similiar to those made in 05 and 06…where the “addition by subtraction” principle comes to play.
For example, move a guy like Lamb or Punto for a low-level minor leaguer to make room for Tolbert and Macri.
always nice to see the piling on young stuff. how about showing the same spite for how cuddy has done this yr. he’s supposed to be a key big bat and his production stinks compared to his contract. he’s way past his sophomore slump yr and using the bad finger doesn’t cut it. he’s hitting 20 points under young, has made some terrible miss plays in right and has the same obp as young. he does have more rbi but he hits 5th behind 2 guys hitting over .300 while young hits behind 2 guys hitting around .260.
yes young has been a disappointment but this insensate bashing of every thing he does wrong is ………..! punto comes back makes an error cost us a game and nothing. young makes an error that doesn’t cost us a game and “he’s garbage” stuff starts all over. you might as well run him out of town you’re working real hard to make him an ex twin that will really help us down the road.
and we did just win 6 in a row!
sorry i blew up!!! forgot my meds!
Check out how many 22 year old or younger, position players, there are in the majors right now (8, though I may have missed 1 or 2). SOme of those players are playing well ( Bruce, Longoria) and some not so well (Barton, Gonzalez and i might add after the weekend here J. UPton). I think Young , and probably Gomez, are both about average for there age. MOst 22 year old players are working through AA and AAA.
It is interesting that we are so unforgiving of a player who is still a professional neophyte, learning some of the nuances on the job and making bonehead plays along the way. I can say this with 100 percent certainty that if Young was in Rochester destroying Scranton and Lehigh Valley the outcry to get him up here would be unbearable. He is not going to get better in AAA and this team needs him to perform for the future. I say, take the good (upside and potential) with the bad (some poor AB’s, and some mistakes in LF, new position by the way) and hope that he can put a good 2nd half together.
gook, Young is this year’s Punto. That’s just what it is.
Also, to say this team would be in first if it still had Garza and Bartlett seems to be a BIG stretch.
Without Young, the Twins have Kubel or Monroe in LF and the other DHing.
Which means even if you replace Harris’ bat with Bartlett’s (and has it really been anything other than a wash?) you’re now downgrading Young’s bat to Monroe’s (who while having more homeruns is the definition of feast or famine…especially as DH, which is where he’d be playing primarily)
So then you put Garza in the rotation, and he bumps out who? Blackburn most likely. Which means again, you’re likely going to see an improvement in pitching, but at the cost of your lineup. Which means you lose the game 2-1 instead of maybe 5-3.
I won’t be surprised or even disappointed if/when Punto gets a few starts. I don’t think he’ll walk in and simply take over at SS or 3B, but if he comes back and is at least as productive at the plate as he was before getting hurt, is that so terrible?
He can give Harris and Casilla a day off here and there AND he can be the RH-hitting 3B against LHP starting pitchers.
Everyone has a role to play and that includes Nick Punto. I’m sure Gardy will get bashed any time he puts the guy in the starting line up, but all I care about are results this year… not what the guy did (or didn’t do) last year.
Harris isn’t perfect, but if his offense continues to improve and he hits like last year, his offense will more than make up for any defense Punto gives them that Harris does not.
I too would like to see the Twins just take the hit on Monroe’s salary. The increased cost is not Monroe’s salary, but Span’s. So, the increase in cost to the Twins is only a couple hundred thousand dollars. They need to see if Span is legit, to either keep him or trade him.
I was mildly opposed to the Young/Garza deal, and am obviously more dissappointed now that I’ve seen the first 3 months’ results. I would not give up on Young, but I think giving Span some of his time is a good idea at this point.
Lamb is a tougher choice. If you cut him, you do absorb next year’s salary. OTOH, they have no one they need to give a big raise to next year. No one. So, unless they are going to sign a FA or acquire a player in his prime earning years (um, unlikely), they have plenty of money next year to pay Lamb. So, the question is, is Lamb a better option than Macri/Buscher at this point? Right now, the evidence is, no. Buscher/Macri is a better option. Do I think the Twins will eat 4+MM (this year’s money and next)? No, I don’t think they will. Would I? Yes, at this point I would.
So, the bench becomes Punto, Span, Macri/Buscher, and Redmond at that point. That is still better than last year, but not exactly scary stuff for PH. Of course, since Monroe is the Monroe of every year other than 2006, he’s not a scary option either at this point.
Brent, Young did not destroy AAA pitching when he was with the Rays. I’m not certain he would this year either.
I don’t think anyone is saying give up on him, they are saying Span may be a better option right now, and that Span should get a shot.
As for Cuddy, some of us have been critical of him, but most of this thread is reacting to Souhan and Howard, and they talked about Young, so most of this thread is talking about him and not Cuddy.
Harris is actually hitting .421/.476/.737 the past week and it not be smart to bench him for Punto (but we are talking about Gardy). The biggest problem I have for columns like Souhan’s and calls for benching Young is that the team is having a nice streak, the bats are clicking and really have not been the problem this season (starting pitching and bullpen usage have been the biggest problems and starting pitching is gotten statistically worse in June). Young is fine. His numbers are similar to those of the #5 multimillionaire hitter, his fielding in left is much better than the alternative (Young .962 FP 2.14 RF, Kubel .875 FP 1.75 RF). As I commented in Joe’s blog last night, I firmly believe that that Gardy messing around with the line up is like an old lady at the checkout counter arguing whether she was shorted 3 cents, while someone is pickpocketing her purse…
The bottom feeders (great nickname btw Howard) are fine. The Twins do not need a shark there. They need a shark or 2 on the pitching side and they need to get rid of the dead weight on the pen (Bass/Buscher). Unfortunately, there are not too many sharks swimming around who may be available. Ben Sheets is a free agent after this season. Would he be available and would the Twins make a run for him? Probably no and no. And there are not many fixes in the minors at least until Liriano can get his endurance and effectiveness up in a manner that he can be at 85-90 pitches after 7.
the AL Central is a terrible division..bottom line.. Twins have been exactly what they should be a .500 team that is young(no pun intended) and will get better.. the “Twin’s are contenders” comments from Souhan and rubes are knee-jerk and short term reactionary to division’s downfall.. enjoy the team and watch it’s development.. but please Billy and Gardy let the kids(Buscher,Harris,Young) play get rid of the washed up vets for whatever can be gotten(prospects) Livian,Lamb, Punto
Is a selling team going to want a Lamb, Monroe, or Punto?
No. But a buying team might want some of them. Lamb still leads the majors in SF frequency and would have great value as a PH for a NL contender without many lefties on the bench. The Mets might be a natural fit for him, esp. as they are rumors (more like screams over the airwaves) that Delgado will be cut. For the same reason, Punto can be a nice addition to a contender that needs infield depth and late inning defensive replacements. Monroe is a hard sale
FV&G…Twins ARE contenders now. They are 1.5 games out of the division lead no matter what shape the division is in. So, by default, they are contenders.
Just a reminder: Young is hitting .280 and Span has never played LF. He didn’t look too good in RF either. I she playing all the outfield positions in Rochester?
alot changes this early in the season. Twins were 6 1/2 behind White Sox just 2 weeks ago and hit a 3 - 7 skid before current 6 game winning streak against Nats(2nd worse team in MLB to Sea Sailors) and D-backs (team playing in worse divison then AL Central? and having a worse record then Twins)
Twins have shown some kick as well they should.. but I fully expect them to be around .500 at year’s end and missing the playoffs 2010 is the year!!!
souhan really has a great baseball mind and should be taken very seriously. put punto back in really makes a lot of sense now, no doubt span has shown he is a great future major league player. smith and gardy do whatever he says!
so when did Gardy and Carol think it was safe to buy the brooms for the last 2 series?
To breakdown Souhan’s article:
He starts by saying this year’s team represents more of a miracle than 2006…all hyberbole aside, that’s laughably false. There’s nothing amazing about what this group of Twins are doing–they are 4 games over .500 based solely on their interleague dominance. That’s nothing new and should be nothing surprising. Saying that being 40-36 at this point is more miracalous than the 2006 season is plain wrong.
Secondly, he opines that the trade with the Rays is hurting us…I suggest he check out Jason Bartlett’s stats. He also unduely rips Young, as many have pointed out.
The “improvement” of Jason Kubel? Really? Last year Kubel hit .273; this year he is hitting .265. Granted, his HR numbers are up, but he’s on pace for about the same number of RBI. Plus, I now predict the start of another of our “free Jason Kubel” 3-for-20 skids in the making…sorry Kubel fans, this is the week; if Gardy plays him in five straight games, prepare for 3-for-20.
Any column which calls for Nick Punto to be the everyday shortstop must be discredited and I don’t think I need to go into detail there.
The one good point Souhan makes in that article, which is painfully obvious to everyone, is Mike Lamb now has no role with this team. The Twins are in a real bind there–no one will take him in a trade with that contract, he does the roster little good as an off-the-bench guy, and you really would be bold in jettisoning him with the severance package it would require.
Souhan has been dying to utter “the Twins are contenders”, but he qualifies it at the end of his column by saying they are a “long shot” to contend. (Previous columns have suggested that this is nothing more than a rebuilding year–a convenient act of checking that proverbial wind direction before taking your ‘bold’ stand). Either way, I don’t there’s much the front office can do right now, nor at the trade deadline, to improve the 2008 roster, other than to bring up Span. So as usual, we pretty much have to roll with what we have.
The Twins would be lucky to get anything for Lamb. I suppose another team could use a 1B/3B with lots of pinch-hitting experience, but the Twins would likely have to take on part of his contract. As for moving Punto–right now he is a better player than Tolbert and certainly is better on defense, which is a key thing for a utility guy, especially if the Twins are carrying Harris as a middle infielder. It is still over a month before either Tolbert or Everett will be ready, so a lot can happen in the meantime. Buscher or Harris (or Casilla) could slump miserably, in which case they could be discarded or exchanged for Macri, or someone could step up and play great. It is too soon to tell.
Expectations were rather high for Young, and he -predictably, in hindsight- has failed to live up to them. However, as others have pointed out, it is a luxury to complain about an immature over-hyped corner outfielder instead of the outfield detritus of years past.
If Delmon Young’s mistakes and Nick Punto’s POTENTIAL return to the starting lineup at some determined moment are the two biggest worries for Twins fans, life is good.
As for Souhan and trade talk, I have mixed feelings. The Twins are being built for a title run in 2009-2011, if the core of the team stays healthy and productive. In that case, it would be a shame to break up what could be a solid contending team for years to come. However, as Cleveland and Detroit have shown, “healthy and productive” may be a fleeting label (Pronk, V. Martinez, Sheffield, et al).
I still think the Twins need a piece or two they aren’t going to find in a trade or Free Agency (overpowering pitcher, big righthanded bat), and until they develop one of those pieces, no use trading for the other.
Middle relief is the weakness of the team - starting pitching has been as good as any, even Boston this year, and every once in a while, a starter is going to be off on location, get roughed up early, or whatever. It happens. But what do the Twins have in long to middle relief to give the offense a chance to come back? The starters HAVE to go 7 innings EVERY night for this team to have a shot to win, and that’s a big burden. The team was successful in 06 for a number of reasons, but a big one was its bullpen - Guerrier was a middle relief guy then that came in and ate shutout innings. Neshek worked the 7th, and Rincon was solid in the 8th. My how times have changed. Twins need an arm to solidify that shaky middle relief pen.
wonder how Macri feels to be sent down to minors for a career .247 hitter who over 162 game season averages 36 RBI and who’s DEF is an average .975 over career
delmon will come around.
Steve,
So far this season:
SP:
4.71 ERA 1.426 WHIP
RP:
3.76 ERA 1.331 WHIP
Yes, there is some dead weight in middle relief (Bass/Bonser) that can go, but SP is worse, since, even with that dead weight, RP allows almost 1 less run per 9
Jason,
Do you hate Kubel because he stole your name? ALA Michael Bolton in Office Space. If so we can call him Koobs, or Jace or something different. Every hitter goes through stretches where he hits 3-20, some more than others. I don’t think anyone expects Kubel to compete with the top hitters in the league for BA, but the Twins desperately need his .777 OPS in the middle of the lineup. BTW he is hitting 340 .433 .700 1.133 in June so i think he deserves everyday playing time.
BTW, Youngs BA, SLG and OPS has improved every month to a pretty respectable 308 .324 .446 .770 for the month of June. I know he started out pretty bad so improvement should be taken relative to where he was, and he has not driven the ball over the fence, but once, but he is steadily improving.
You know who is not improving and is actally regressing? GO-GO he is hitting a meager .247 .280 .315 .595 in June and to me looks totally lost at the plate at times. What’s worse is he only has 1 SB in 3 attempts this month. Alot of his value comes from his speed and he doesn’t seem willing to use it on the base paths. Why aren’t people riding him as hard as they are Young?
the Starting pitching numbers are inflated with Boof! and Livian what are the numbers without them?
WHITENESS:
I also think the Twins need a piece or two and aren’t going to find it in a trade or Free Agency. I agree, develop those pieces, no use trading for the other.
Smith has learned the hard way that trades are risky, and he’s no Andy McPhail. McPhail won the lottery with some of the acquisitions he got in the World Champ years. That probably will never happen again.
“No. But a buying team might want some of them.”
That’s true, but if a team is looking to buy somebody like Lamb, odds are they wouldn’t have much in the way to give back (at least something that would benefit the Twins immediately)
Like I said elsewhere, it may be more a “addtion by subtraction” trade, where they move Lamb to get him off the team and make room for somebody to call up. (Or come in from elsewhere…who knows)
I still stand firmly pat that the Twins should only be buyers if they’re able to bring in help that would also be around beyond 2008. Because in most situations, a selling team is looking to go young, which means the Twins would be giving up youth for vets during what should still be considered a rebuilding year.
Yes, that’s right. It’s still a rebuilding year. You can compete in a rebuilding year, and you can contend if you get lucky…the Twins are contending right now for just that reason. They’ve gotten lucky that the Sox aren’t hitting and the Tigers aren’t hitting OR pitching.
The FO went into 08 thinking (just like half the world) that the Tigers and Indians would likely be tough to beat without having guys like Hunter and Santana. So when Detroit sunk early and with Chicago faltering now, they see opportunities to pounce, but can’t really do much because of how injuries and offseason aquisitions have played out.
I don’t think anybody expected Buscher or Casilla (especially Casilla) to have the kind of season they’re having thus far. *knock wood*
Nor did anybody think that Young would struggle as badly as he has (power wise anyway).
It unfortunately ties their hands. I still think the best choice is to look to move the guys like Monroe and Lamb to get ANYTHING…even if it’s minor league help….and make moves depending on what kind of bench options you open up.
Aside from the obvious question (what do the Twins possibly have to offer…and how would they make room for any new faces without first getting rid of the Monroe/Lamb/Everett types), the next question is…what’s out there for the Twins that can help not only this year, but fit into long term plans?
FIRE,
only Blackburn’s and Baker’s ERA is lower that the collective ERA of the bullpen. All other starters are in the 4’s and 5’s. Only Baker’s and Slowey’s WHIP is lower than the collective bullpen WHIP… Ideally, the team needs 2 new starters who would take the place of Livan and Perkins. Perkins can be the long man in the pen and Livan/Boof/Bass would be in greener pastures
“So, by default, they are contenders.”
While this may be the case, can you see the Twins as they currently are winning anything in the postseason? Especially considering how poorly they’ve matched up with the AL West?
Yes, that means the Twins should look to be buyers, but that brings us back to our “What the heck can they offer” situations.
one way to think is that delmon was brought in here to provide some power. well that has been a flop, although he has hit fairly well, and shown some improvement as we go, he still is a single and doubles hitter. if we are willing to live with that, then we should be bringing up span and put him in left field, as he would improve in average, defense, and stolen bases….just think of span, gomez, and casilla in that lineup with gomez batting ninth….i like it and think it would work very well…the speed alone would be worth the price of admission…im not sure we shouldnt package a pitching prospect and delmon to someone for a starting pitcher…..thats just a thought and maybe a bad one at that….still thinking on that one…
Perkins had 2 back-to-back starts giving up 5 runs in 4 innings the other 7 starts he has pitched 6 innings or more(except 1 start going 5 1/3) and given up 3 runs or less. Perkins is a 25 year who looks to be a good #3 or #4 starter plus a LEFTY
While it would be uncharacteristic for the Twins to eat some of Lamb’s or Monroe’s salary in a potential trade or even a DFA and subsequent release, if there’s a year when they could afford to do so, this is it. Their payroll is well below the level they would typically expect to spend.
Having to carry a little salary for players not on the team in 2009 wouldn’t break the bank either. They’ve got pretty much everyone locked up that they’ll count on bringing back. I seem to recall that they’ll need to make a decision on offering Kubel a multi-year deal one year before he gets his freedom and I suspect they’ll be talking to Mauer’s agent about an extension this off-season, as well.
As for there not being any value on the market for guys like Lamb and Monroe, I find that hard to believe. The Twins are in the unique situation of not really needing to get major league ready talent in trade, even though they’re trying to contend. It’s more a case of freeing roster space for young players they think can be improvements over the veterans that would be dealt.
They were able to get Macri, one of the guys they want to make room for, last year for Ortiz… who arguably had less value than the veterans that they’d be marketing this season.
There are two camps among Twins fans (and quite possibly the same two camps among the Front Office and Field Management staffs), those who see the team only 1.5 GB and want to put the best team on the field to contend THIS YEAR… and those that insist that the team should stay the “rebuilding” course and give young players opportunities to play in order to get them ready for 2009 and beyond.
The unique thing this year is that the “right” thing to do, for both camps, is the same thing! It looks like those young players are actually more likely to help the team contend THIS year, even as they gain experience for the future.
Smith and Gardy have young players (Macri, Span, Liriano) pretty nearly ready to step in for Lamb, Monroe and Hernandez that have demonstrated they can quite possibly outperform the veterans, while they get experience for the future. ( I say that even though I’ve been very happy with Livan’s contribution. I just think that if/when Liriano is ready and assuming there are no further injuries to the rotation, he will have served his purpose and would be expendable.)
I’m OK with taking the next month to see what the best offers are, but unless there are more injuries on the near horizon, I think all three of those players could be moved by the trade deadline and that, at a minimum, the two position players should be thanked for their services and moved elsewhere.
HOWARD:
You frightened me in the previous blog:
“Last thing I’m gonna do let bleepin’ Ozzie choose another nickname for this team”
Wonder what he’d come up with, especially after getting swept by the Cubs? He called Pinellia “Minnesota Fat” on some kind of radio thing. I like that. “Minnesota FAT”.
I don’t think having Lamb and Monroe on the bench for spot duty and pinch hitting is a bad thing. If someone wants to trade anything useful for them, take it, but i don’t see a reason to cut either loose. Both are better bench options than the Twins have had in years.
Brent,
I don’t hate Kubel at all. In fact, I will point out that Kubel has delivered some big hits for this club and has played an important role. What I am saying is he’s not improving, nor does he appear to be the stud hitter everyone dreamed he would become last year at this time. Kubel is your basic .250 hitter with some pop in the bat and no speed. Sadly, that makes him the best DH this club has had in a long time.
My point about 3-for-20 is what it always has been–as soon as you start playing Kubel everyday, that’s when he becomes a .238 hitter. But it’s kind of a moot point because I think Gardy understands this and that’s why you see Craig Monroe–who’s also come up with some huge hits for us in spite of his skimpy batting average–shuffled in there.
But someone above made an even better point in talking about our outfield…how can Souhan continue to rip Young like he’s a lost cause or something while the guy at the other corner–a veteran who was paid to take over the third spot in the lineup, is regressing even worse than he regressed last year. As usual, Souhan is happy to rip the easy targets (see multiple Lew Ford rips in 2006-07), while failing to rip the ones who deserve ripping–that’s our boy Cuddy, who’s on pace to hit .256 with 7 HR this year.
Fire Vavra/Beneke,
What? You couldn’t work McHale into your comments this morning?
span rf
casilla 2b
mauer c
morneau 1b
young lf
kubel/monroe dh
harris ss
buscher 3b
gomez cf
i like this lineup alot…cuddy should rest some games along with young, but notice the speed starting with #9…alot of damage could be done with that much speed -yup if only we were the managers huh??
MJ1:
Yeah, I like that. You had another thought earlier about a package for a starting pitcher. Which made ME think about a lineup with Span AND Young.
To me they seem like a couple of just average players and really haven’t shown a lot in Twin’s uniforms. Not sure those two have what it takes.
and cuddy too…hes the most average of them all…i have higher hopes for span and young…youngs power may still come, but not this year….that will be an off season change im afraid…..we have alot of potential for a great outfield but thats it potential….it looked alot more promising this spring than it has been, but i really think span is ready and should be given the chance to compete and maybe become that .300 hitting of
crikket: “The unique thing this year is that the “right” thing to do, for both camps, is the same thing!”
you hit the nail on the head!
livan, monroe and lamb are not long term rebuilding pieces and except the occasional good start by livan when liriano is ready to come up he should be traded. to replace monroe and lamb with better options makes sense. don’t know if that’s possible to find with what we have to offer.
not sure span is an all star waiting for a chance, if the fo thought so why did they trade for both gomez and young?
I’m not any more inclined to give up on Cuddyer than I am Young, at this point. I expected more out of both this season, but I also look at things from a “glass half full” perspective and that is, if one or both of them step up to a production level closer to expectations in the second half, that could make a world of difference for this team.
If Span’s improvement is sustainable and not a mirage, I see a 4-man OF in 2009 and beyond of Young, Gomez, Cuddyer and Span that could be pretty impressive. Throw in Kubel as a DH and back up OF and that group could be pretty solid for a long time, with enough depth to cover the inevitable periods where one or two get banged up a little bit.
This team really needs to figure out if Buscher (or Macri or Tolbert or someone else) is going to be the answer at 3B and whether there even is an answer at SS in the organization. I see those two positions, along with a new back up catcher (assuming Redmond is nearing the end of the line) being this team’s off-season priorities.
gobble, I don’t think anyone is suggesting Span is a budding all star… but that’s not the level he has to perform at in order to take Monroe’s spot on the roster.
Clearly, if the organization had been sure he was going to even be a serviceable major leaguer, they wouldn’t have felt compelled to add two 22-yr old OFs (PLUS Monroe) last off-season. But he hadn’t shown enough to make anyone confident he would be ready to step in.
Now that he appears (and by no means is he a ’sure thing’) to have demonstrated he can play at the major league level, it should make for an interesting competition in Spring Training next year.
By the way, Gomez hadn’t shown that HE was a sure thing last year either. The Twins were hoping one or the other would prove they could play the game at the MLB level this season. The fact that both have stepped up is promising for the future.
And that’s 3 comments from me in a very short period… so I’m gonna shut up now.
I, for one, am not convinced Buscher is a better player than Lamb, and while I concur Buscher deserves the starting 3b role for now (at least against RH pitching) I see no reason to dump Lamb.
At the very least, having Lamb on the bench (plus Monroe) is a lot better than past years, where Gardy’s bench consisted of Luis Rodriguez and worse.
At the most, Buscher doesn’t sustain his offense, or gets hurt, and at that point I’d rather have Lamb playing than Punto everyday.
Lamb has a long history of being a pretty decent hitter. I’m not convinced 2 1/2 months is enough time to say he’s done.
Let’s let this play out. There’s likely little market for Lamb (or Monroe) anyway, so why dump them? If they get to late July and are hopelessly out of the race, fine. But right now, let’s keep the stronger bench and some infield options in place and see what develops.
What I am saying is he’s not improving, nor does he appear to be the stud hitter everyone dreamed he would become last year at this time.
Kubel was our best hitter in the second half of last year. He got off to a terrible start this season, which doesn’t make him the least bit unique on this team, unfortunately, but he’s hitting .340 in June with a 1.117 OPS, 4 homers and 11 RBI. That’s pretty damn good, certainly better than Monroe and good enough play almost every game. Which, to Gardy’s credit, Kubel has been doing.
JimCrikket,
I think the Twins try to move an outfielder. We’ve all forgotten about Pridie, who was supposed to be the fourth or fifth outfielder, and who is now stuck behind Gómez, Young, and the suprising Span.
No way the Twins trade Cuddyer, because of his experience, leadership, magic tricks, whatever, and the fact that the Front Office loves him (and being a good guy counts for something in Minnesota, for good or for bad). Kubel, too, seems to be someone the organization isn’t wiling to give up on, lest he become David Ortiz 2.0. And trading Gómez and Young are out of the question, because of their ages and experience.
So that leaves Span, Pridie, and of course, Monroe.
I also agree the team needs to figure out its 3B and SS situation (2B seems to be taken care of!), which is all the more reason to look for takers for Lamb.
Maybe the Twins can package, Lamb, Punto and Liván for ARod.
mmmhmm who is this mchale you speak of?
HINT:
He is sometimes referred to as “McFail”, not to be confused with “McPhail”. One built World Championship teams.
I think him and the activity he may be involved with is just a vicious rumor.. I don’t believe it exists much like ROUS’s
WHITENESS:
As usual, another ingenious idea. So it’s settled.
Lamb Punto and Livan for A-Rod.
Make the deal.
“Lamb Punto and Livan for A-Rod.
Make the deal.”
Fuhgetaboutit.
We are not taking on THAT salary!!!!
the extra 15M would bring the payroll up to 81M right in line with last year’s payroll… 
(sane: trust me, carl can afford it)
HAHAHA. I think Steinbrenner would want to also unload Jeter, so we probably have to throw in Everett and Harris. Revised trade:
Lamb, Punto, Everett, Harris, Livan… oh let’s be generous, we give them Boof also, … and Rincon’s phone number.
We get Jeter and A-Rod.
Mudcat,
I didn’t say he can’t afford it.
I merely said:
“We are not taking on THAT salary!!!!”
Think of it as a prediction, rather than a feasibility evaluation.
carlos has a better idea anyway
Carlos G,
“Lamb, Punto, Everett, Harris, Livan… oh let’s be generous, we give them Boof also, … and Rincon’s phone number.”
Won’t happen!
New York City garbage collectors are on strike again.
No one to pick up our trade package.
where’s that certain someone to scold us for being so negative?? “New York City garbage collectors are on strike again. No one to pick up our trade package.”
“Twin’s have a great roster, no holes what so ever” is what our mantra should be!
No problem, Peter. Please gracefully accept my “I told you so” next Monday when we get our 3-for-20 this week.
Fire is right.
Let’s think up Theme Lineups.
3-for-20 would be 30 points better than Craig Monroe’s average in June.
Re: future of Lamb, Macri, and 3b…
Did you catch Gardy’s comment post-game:
“As I told him, ‘You’ve done very well and handled yourself well, and if we can figure out a few things, maybe get you back up here.’ ”
Looks to me like Gardy is hoping, like most of the people commenting here, that something gets “figure out”. My best guess is that is with Lamb.
Reasons to move Lamb have been articulated well above. Reasons to keep him may also, maybe I missed this one:
He would be an experienced left handed hitter off the bench. Unless we find one via trade, I wouldn’t want our young guys coming to majors to sit on the bench most of the time.
If it were Span to get some rotation time with the OF, that might work, but it would take another move to get Macri back (Monroe).
That’s my prediction (in July): Lamb and Monroe exit; Span and Macri return. Twins get prospects in return.
FIRE,
I meant that trade package is garbage, when compared to A-Rod and Jeter.
Many of them can still contribute to the Twins, but to fetch A-Rod and Jeter……uh, no.
Carlos G,
“Lamb and Monroe exit; Span and Macri return. Twins get prospects in return.”
I’ll settle for getting roster space in return.
lucky the # of homeruns hit as the measuring stick to being considered and good hitter didn’t apply in 84 & 85, kirby 0 hr in 84 and 4 hr in 85. first 1248 at bats at age 24 and 25 he hit 4 hr’s.
man did he stink!
“So that leaves Span, Pridie, and of course, Monroe.”
Monroe less so…but with the rumors floating that the Rox may be shopping Holiday, what are the odds that we could use Span and some (correct: a bit) help to get either Atkins or Stewart from Colorado?
Perhaps in exchange we help them find a good home for Holiday?
My concern would be Atkins home/away splits. But if the cost isn’t too high (we don’t need span with Young/Gomez/Cuddy/Kubel) then it may be worth at least a phone call to get something started.
“man did he stink!”
That would be fun to do. Take some former Twins greats and notso greats and build two lineups.
One containing guys that did AWESOME in their early years, and one made of guys who sucked their early years.
Mudcat - “MN Twins we are a scrappy bunch that does the little things and plays the game the right way”
or “MN TWINS we are a scrappy bunch that loves to grind it out and keep battling”
my point is that when you have young players they often fail and have bad stretches poor at bats and brain freezes, however you need to stay with them to find out if they can play big time or not (which you can’t find out in aaa). very few players in their first 2-4 yrs don’t have times when they look lost.
if a guy has been in the league for 5+ yrs like monroe, lamb and cuddy the potential should be realized or maybe it’s not there anymore. cuddy has had 1 good yr.(06), by any stretch/excuse this yr has not been a yr his exp. and salary should demand. lamb and monroe have been so far below their top producing yrs they may have nothing left.
t: marty cordova!
Good idea T. I’ve got a guy to nominate as utility infielder who saw a little time at 2B and 3B for small parts of 5 years before becoming a regular. During those first 5 years, he hit .224 and had a total of 11 HRs.
For a slow starting utility infielder, Killer ended up having a pretty fair career.
Holliday’s career OPS:
1.081 Home; .780 Away
Cuddyer’s career OPS is .787
atkins hr totals are close both home and away but his ave is “only” like .280 away. think the ave is inflated there because of the bigger than normal outfield area.
however a .280 hitter with 25 hr would look nice at 3b imo.
T,
“One containing guys that did AWESOME in their early years, and one made of guys who sucked their early years.”
The first group would have to forfeit because of lack of players, unless you include the one-year-wonders.
The second group is the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of successful MLB players.
We all have to realize that Al Kaline was an exception.
Willie Mays was sent down to the AAA Minneapolis Millers because he was struggling in MLB.
And Delmon drove in 93 RBI as a 21-yr-old rookie last year.
But he “justs looks average” to some of the blog commenters.
WHATEVER!!!
OK. I spent all day on this (well 39 minutes)
The Bottom Feeder Lineup:
1)Brian Bass
2)Tim Salmon
3)A-Rod
4)Steve Trout
5)Christopher Michael Carp
6)Catfish Hunter
7)Bill Herring
8)Slip Pickeral
AND
9)Lipman Pike, America’s first Professional Baseball Player
Mudcat, Am I right in assuming your team’s beat writer would be Mike Fish of espn.com?
Mudcat,
Red Roughy
Bill Fisher
Joe EELpout
(sorry, no such guy)
T,
Jokes about ridiculous trades to the Yankees aside, I don’t think the Twins have enough tradeable firepower to pry Atkins, Stewart, or Holiday away from Colorado. As you pointed out before, Mauer and Morneau, Gómez and Young are off the auction blocks, and there is no use in making a Gift of the Magi trade (i.e. sending our new left fielder for a new 3B just opens another whole, in my opinion).
Again, this is the nucleus that is going to go forward into the new stadium. I don’t see Billy Smith making a push for someone who is anything more than a stopgap.
This team may be more analogous to the ‘85 club or the ‘00 club than the ‘03 (?) team that picked up Shannon Stewart.
sane - you have to face facts that Delmon has struggled at times with DEF and hitting… he is like Gomez a potential great talent and he had a great rookie year.. Young just needs time to settle down and stop trying to justify the trade to Twins with every swing and with every attempt to make a “highlight” catch I liked the Garza for Young trade when it happened because A)we have alot of potentially good pitchers B)we have no potential hitters in minors aka non-bottom feeders I still like it for potential, and maybe Young turns into a bust but you don’t give up on a 23 year old!!! I would rather Billy Smith make more of these bold moves he has some chess pieces use some, Terry Ryan was never willing to pull the trigger we can be thankful Billy will
Ooof.
“Hole”, not “whole”.
Bad editing on my part.
Howard,
“Mudcat, Am I right in assuming your team’s beat writer would be Mike Fish of espn.com?”
You can’t Fish on the bottom without a “SINKER”.
You are the beat writer for the bottom feeders.
I can’t believe “Mudcat Grant” wouldn’t make such a list.
I agree with those above who say this year’s Twins are contenders who can act like sellers. I would love to see Lamb moved to a team that needs to fortify their bench. However, I can’t see the Twins moving Livan when they are in contention and he keeps winning–no matter how bad his stats are. (And if he loses 4 out of 5, then who will want him?) As far as moving Monroe to make room for Span, I think Span needs regular playing time and lots of ABs. Making him a bench player who gets 6 ABs a week will hurt his development. If only Everett could get healthy enough to be tradeable . . .
I can not believe that everybody is giving Cuddyer a free pass and putting all the blame on DY. Please. Cuddyer is making what 8 mil this year, and his line is what a .230 BA and 2 HR? Unbelievable this guy is making as much as Mauer, and just under Morneau?
Due to the inconsistencies of Cuddyer and Delmon, I agree with those of you who say that Span should be brought up. Span NEEDS to be up here,(Never thought i would say that).
Also, for those of you who say that Lamb is untradeable are simply wrong. One of the top 10-15 highest pay roll, contending teams would take him. Granted essentially for one crappy 18 year old prospect, but that would DEFINETELY be worth it to get his underachieving ass out of here and allow Macri and others to stay here. Lamb can be traded. He is no rincon. He has had recent success.
I also need to vent on those of you who want to cut,or trade Punto. He is a great asset to this team on the BENCH. Anytime you can put a player of his defensive caliber on the field at 3B,SS, or 2B, and not have any drop off is a great asset to a team. His hitting HAS been up so far this year, his fast, brings energy, and again his versatality and great defense can not be replaced.
Players that need to be cut/traded
1.Livan
2.Lamb
3.Bonser
4.Everett
The first 3 CAN be traded, and should be traded no matter what we get in return. Livan needs to be traded because liriano is touching 94 MPH again and consistently hitting in between 91-93. So obviously with that said his velocity is back and he needs to take over for the weakest pitcher on the staff and that is livan. The Twins need to trade Livan soon, while his ERA and record are somewhat good.
Bonser needs to be traded because he has some young potential, and could bring out a decent player in return if packaged with the right players. bonser has not future with this team so a trade is in the teams best interest.
In conclusion, this should be the Twins roster within the next 3 weeks:
SP:
1.Baker
2.Blackburn
3.Slowly
4.Perkins
5.Livan
Bench
1.Redmond
2.Punto
3.Monroe
4.Macri
5.Span
Trades I hope the Twins make
Bonser,Lamb,prospects for Guzman
Livan for a prospect
Jim Crikket,
In regards to Killer, did those early 5 years include the 2 years he had to stay in the Majors due to the Bonus Baby Rule?
Regards,
I am a loser for that big of a post…
I would agree that you don’t bring Span up if he’s just going to sit on the bench. That said, I think the assumption would be that if he IS brought up, he would get playing time in all three OF positions as he gives others an occasional day off and perhaps DHs occasionally.
I would even say the same is true of Macri. If management is satisfied with the existing players getting most of the playing time, with Lamb and Monroe almost exclusively being pinch hitters off the bench (with rare occasional DH duty), then you leave Span and Macri in Rochester where they play every day.
FIRE,
and maybe Young turns into a bust but you don’t give up on a 23 year old!!! I would rather Billy Smith make more of these bold moves he has some chess pieces use some”
I’m witcha.
Dragon, absolutely. He was 18 when he broke in, so the 5 years included those years that kids today spend in the minors. He played in 9, 38, 44, 9 and 13 games, respectively, in those first five years.
If Delmon’s “age 23″ year is half what Killebrew’s turned out to be, I think we’ll be happy. (Although, I suspect that if today’s bloggers/commenters had been around in 1959, many would find fault with Harmon’s .242 BA.
Bobby Sturgeon
Leo Muscle Shoals
Marty the Octupus Marion
“The first group would have to forfeit because of lack of players, unless you include the one-year-wonders.”
That’s the idea. The one-hit wonders who would be AWESOME and everybody would want to keep…but then suck the following year and never be heard from again (thus proving the first few years isn’t the final say in future)
I am not convinced that Span can be anything more than Tyner. In his sting with the big club this year he did not have a single extra base hit and he was in a starting role. Monroe needs ABs (he has less than Casilla for the season) I wouldn’t mind seeing him in an outfield rotation.
Walleye Pipp, if he can just win back the first base job.
(Lou Gehrig, get it?)
JimCrikket,
“then you leave Span and Macri in Rochester where they play every day.”
They can help the Twins NOW.
Span can replace any of the starting OF against any RHP with a good/great slider.
Who plays 3B (instead of Macri) against a good LHP?
Lamb?
Punto batting RH?
Buscher?
All horrible choices.
Keep Macri and Span and PLAY THEM!!!
“Trades I hope the Twins make
Bonser,Lamb,prospects for Guzman”
Guzman would be a rental and appears to be having one of those “Contract years” that tends to frequently burn teams who deal for them.
Not to mention he’s currently a leadoff hitter, which takes Gomez out of his role…he COULD be moved to 9th (taking over for Harris) but then you potentially shake up the lineup and throw guys like Casilla off their game.
I haven’t follow Guzman enough since he left (well not counting his near Mendoza-line first season with the Nats) so I dunno if his 08 is an aberation or some second-coming.
But whatever the case, how weird is it we’re looking at the trade market and GUZMAN’S name comes up…?
I think we could put together a lineup of guys that started out well and continued to do so. Allison, Oliva, Carew, Blyleven, and Knoblauch come immediately to mind.
Jim Crikket,
I actually remember those days as a youngster.
Killer was never much for Batting Average.
Regards,
Span has a 129 at bats where he has played well. He also has almost 2000 other at bats that say he is not a big league regular. If he can keep this up until september than by all means he should get a serious look but what player hasn’t had a hot stretch of 120 at bats in the minors.
As to the Kubel 3-20 post.
Line in this mornings “Washington Post” sports page.
National’s didn’t do much this weekend, BUT kept Hamilton to 1-15.
But heck, he’s a washed up, flash in the pan.
Regards,
sane, if you go back to my earlier post, that’s exactly what I suggested. I see no reason those two guys, Macri and Span, couldn’t come up and be productive contributors.
I was just acknowledging that IF all management wants from the last two “position” roster spots with seldom-used pinch hitters, then I would agree the team shouldn’t waste service time for Span and Macri on that role.
Dragon,
“Killer was never much for Batting Average.”
Neither was Bob Allison. His first three year’s BA were:
.261
.251
.245
He did hit the long ball, however, but
does that qualify as “started out well and continued to do so”?
Jim Crikket,
I agree that if they don’t play, they don’t stay.
Neither Gardy nor TK would probably have ever let Killebrew get on the field, Dragon. I can just imagine all of the “strikes out too much”, “isn’t willing to go with the pitch to the opposite field”, “doesn’t play the kind of fundamental defense we like to see”, quotes in the paper.
Howard,
I MUST commend you. Today has been a GREAT discussion of Twins & Baseball. Hope it continues.
Jim Crikket & Sane,
My personal view would to bring the youngsters up and blood them. If the team contends, it contends. If contending is beyond reality so be it.
From the perspective of many fan’s that is probably NOT acceptable.
Regards,
sane, Allison was ROY when he hit 30 HR and despite dropping off to 15 the following year, he averaged over 28 HR a year for his first 6 seasons. I’m not sure what our standards would be for “started out well and continued to do so”, but I’d take that.
Jim C. & Sane,
That was a different era. AND, throw in Jimmy Hall a bit later. Also, Calvin Griffith’s Cuban connection (pre-Castro) with Camilo Pasqual and Pedro Ramos. And, Versallies
A trip down memory lane.
Regards,
Toby,
“Span has a 129 at bats where he has played well.”
My props for Span are based on what he looks like at bat this year, from ST through now. His approach and his stroke are undeniably new and improved (sorry Craig!)
That should lead to predictably better at bats from NOW on.
Stats are stats, but improved technique and performance are far more convincing.
He is not just hot, he is good!
DRAGON:
Had to look up Hamilton. He’s lucky to even be playing, can’t believe he isn’t out of the majors with his history. Sad.
jim Crikket,
Evaluating Allison and many power hitters will cause ambivalence between BA and power numbers. His second year of .251 with 15 HR would look like Cuddyer2007 which is good or bad depending on which commenter is judging.
I don’t think that today’s management team would have any problem with Killers strikeouts 1,699 because they were accompanied by 1,559 walks a .376 OBP and a .509 SLG.
how about 1-2 yr hit wonders? maybe marty cordova, there have been several like him that were roy and never lived up to that hype afterwards.
Jim C. & Sane,
Looking back, Killer was blocked at 4 positions 1B Pete Runnels, 3B Eddie Yost, LF Roy Sievers and RF Jim Lemon.
I was a bit young to remember the Senators CF in 1956 was none other then Whitey Herzog.
Regards
Yeah, Dragon, I’m old school enough to recall those names fondly, too.
Pascual, by the way, would be a candidate to join Killebrew in the “took a while to develop” line up. His first several years were pretty bad. Again, this was a different era and he was still only 25 when he started his sixth season in the Bigs.
Something to keep in mind, perhaps as we rush to judge some of today’s young starting pitchers.
I have a feeling that .250/.260 had a different meaning in that era, probably equal to .270/.280 or higher in today’s game.
Also, didn’t they (each team) have like 10-12 minor league teams, through like “D” level?
Regards,
sane- Just to clarify Willie Mays was never sent down to AAA Minneapolis Millers.He was called up after a torrid start in 1951,hitting well over .400 for the Millers.He promptly went 0-20 something to start his big league career.He came into Leo Durochers office crying and begging to get sent back down But Leo the Lip told him “your my centerfielder whether you hit or not”.The next night Mays homered off Warren Spahn and went on to hit 20 HRs that year.But I get your Point!
MUDCAT,
If this year is any reflection, Josh Hamilton was a justified #1 talent who took a very tortured path. I guess there is something to be said for redemption.
Regards,
JimCrikket-Wasn’t Killebrew required to stay in the bigs because if an old “bonus baby” clause that stated if you signed for so much you had to stay with the big club?That rule probably stunted Harmons groth enough to keep him from hitting 600+ HRS.Imagine what he might have been able to do with a couple of years seasoning in the minors instead of rotting on the bench for five years.
Dragon,
you make Hamilton sound like a martyr, with that “tortured path”. He is an addict that caused that to himself. If MLB had NFL rules, he would have been out of the game.
Doug Munson,
The Bonus Baby rule:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_baby
Unbelievable. A players signed for a $4,000 bonus had to stay on the Major League Roster for 2 years, otherwise was subject to waivers.
Regards,
Yeah, Doug, but then the minor leagues back then were even more of a meat grinder than they are today. Harmon could just as easily been ruined and never gotten a chance. You just have no way of knowing “what if.”
Dragon- Thanks for the clarification.I actually thought it was longer.Thanks to you,Crikket and others for taking a stoll down Twins Memory Lane during this off day.Makes an old guy like me feel young again!
thrylos98,
RE: Hamilton,
It was not my intent to minimize what Hamilton did or got into. Rather, I do not have all the particulars, and attempted to paint a not so pretty picture. Obviously, I did a poor job.
Bottom line, He and his family, DID NOT deal well with his early baseball experience. He became an addict. He seems to have turned his personal life around, and kicked the habit. Don’t remember if he did jail or not.
If he has got straightened out, I’m fine with how it turned out.
As I get older, I am less vindictive than I once was.
Regards,
1) If MLB had NFL rules he’d have made most of those mistakes at Florida State, Bobby would have buried them and he’d have been straight about the time his eligibility was up.
2) He was out of baseball and even when he started his comeback MLB nixed it initially and didn’t reinstate him until an appeal from his doctors and addiction specialists.
None of that makes him a martyr or a saint, bit it does make him a positive example to anyone who’s battleing their own deamons.
Crikket - You are correct.Back in the day they didn’t just have AAA,AA,A,and Rookie ball.They went all the way to class D ball.Teams Like the Yankees just stock plied players to prevent other teams from getting a crack at a guy.In the Senators case,they were bad enough that Harmon probably stood a decent chance of surviving.
Dragon, I’d actually be ok with MLB having a similar “bonus baby” rule today (adjusted for inflation, of course).
Ya say ya dont wanna be limited to paying your draft picks whatever the slotted rate is? No problem… pay whatever you want. But go over the slotted rate by more than 10% and you keep him on your 25 man roster for the length of the contract… or he’s subject to waivers. (I’m sure the Players Association would have something to say about the change, of course.)
Let’s see how anxious the Yankees and Red Sox are to deal with Boras clients in that environment.
Doug,
It’s been fun remembering “way back” then.
My 1st game was at old Griffith’s stadium in either 1957 or 1958. I was 5/6 at the time, and my dad is now 82 and can’t remember which.
My dad has been a Senator’s/Twins fan since the early/mid 1930’s. His first game was July 4, 1936.
Regards,
Dragon- I don’t go back quite that far but I am a Twins historian enough to have read up on all of it.My first game was 1969,I was 10.Rod Carew tied the record for steals of home that night when he got his seventh against the White Sox.Carew remained my favorite Twin until the day he was traded.
RE: Hamilton
I say if you are battling deamons, give up your high pressure occupation and get strait. Many others are waiting to take your place. I grow weary of the comeback stories in sports, music, and Hollywood.
And being the shameless homer that I am, I hope he IS a flash in the pan for our rivals, the Texas Strangers.
Doug,
Yea, those were the days.
Back when baseball cards were 5 cents a pack, and was one of the primary ways to learn about many players.
Also, their highest and best use was to be pinned to one’s bicycle spokes to make noise which racing through the neighborhood.
Regards,
Mudcat:
Apparently you missed the bit where he didn’t play an inning of competitive baseball for 3 years.
Dragon,
I never subjected my Baseball Cards to bicycle spokes!Much to important!
Doug,
Of course it was only the marginal players
‘Of course it was only the marginal players’
Big Papi rooking card… grumble, grumble, grumble…
Ear muffs!
1965 Twins ended the year with 6 players in the top 15 for MVP of AL, including 1st (Versailles) and 2nd (Oliva).
Dodgers had 3 in top 15 for MVP of NL, including 2nd (Koufax), 3rd (Wills), and 5th (Drysdale). Some guy named Mays won it that year.
That was an awesome World Series for me… my boyhood team (Dodgers) and hero (Koufax 26-8 that year with a perfect game) against my new team (Twins). Koufax skips first game for Jewish holiday. Drysdale pitches and loses game 1. Koufax pitches and loses game 2. Dodgers win 3 games in LA with Koufax getting game 5. Mudcat pitches and hits HR for game 6 Twins win (on 2 days rest). Koufax comes back on 2 days rest… throws a 3 hitter. That remains the only home field world series game lost by the Twins.
Good times guys.
Carlos,
I don’t think they knew about the benefit’s of “Pitch Counts” in 1965.
Dragon,
You got that right. Koufax pitched 335 innings in 1965. 27 complete games; 41 starts; 8 shutouts; he even had 2 Saves! With a nifty 2.04 ERA.
He did screw up his arm though. There is a pretty good Koufax book that I’ve read. Documents his career. Interesting stuff they went through — the training room was basically a bag of ice on his elbow, which typically would swell after a game to the size of his knee. After his shortened baseball career, he couldn’t straighten his arm.
Those guys earned their pay! Remember when he and Drysdale had the guts to hold out together for a better contract? I believe they ended up at about $100K a year that year.
Yep, good times.
Welcome to the world of Jason’s logic.
Kubel’s line over the last five weeks doesn’t mean didly poo…
.311/.403/.566/.969 13 XBH 18 BB 18 K
…but a 3-20 stretch is enough damning evidence to prove that he’s no good.
Maybe we should just deal him for Lew Ford, he was the G.O.A.T.
Yeah, Koufax threw over 300 innings in 3 out of his last 4 seasons.
I’m sure that had nothing at all to do with him being finished at the age of 31. Just ask Bert “Pitch Counts Are Silly” Blyleven, right?
Carlos G.
Consider, maybe EVEN with inflation, a Santana year @$23/25 mil, probably covered the Senators/Twins TOTAL payroll from 1950-1970.
Regards,
snepp-To borrow a phase “Jason in moderation”.Sorry jason i couldn’t help myself.
Jim Crikket,
I think you’re correct on Koufax, yet many pitchers in the older days (50’s & 60’s) had long careers AND pitched a ton of innings.
I know it was common in the 30’s & 40’s for a pitcher to pitch both games of a DH. Don’t know when that practice ended.
Regards,
, I’d actually be ok with MLB having a similar “bonus baby” rule today
Actually there are a couple of similar rules:
The rule 5 draft picks have to be in the 25 man roster otherwise have to go back (this is the reason Santana was in the majors before he should have been)
and if a draftee is singed to a major league contract (like our own Delmon Young), if he is not in the majors in 3 years he becomes a free agent
Dragon and crikket,
Wasn’t Koufax’ elbow arthritic? I don’t know if the arthritis was caused by all the innings or not but Koufax probably threw more innings than any pitcher in baseball from ‘63 -’66.It was an unbelievable four year run that got him elected to Cooperstown.
“Sandy Koufax: A Lefty’s Legacy” by Jane Leavy is excellent. was a best seller but now, a few years later, it can be found used and in paperback.
Koufax’ Numbers 1963-1966
1963 40 games started,311.0 innings,25-5 record,306 K’s
1964 28 games started(one relief appearance),”only” 223.0 innings,19-5 record,223 K’s
1965 41 games started ( 2 more two in relief) 335.0 innings,26-8 record 382 K’s
1966 41 games started,323.o innings,27-9 record,317 K’s
I think that the most amazing thing that Koufax did was to refuse pitching the 1st day of the ‘65 WS because it was Yom Kippur. I think that it was a first (and last) in the sports world and probably the stronger delivery of the message that sports are just sports and there are other things in life more important than them…
63 and 64 Marichal and Drysdale respectively lead baseball w/ 321 1/3 innings. Koufax in 65 and 66. Curiously no AL pitcher threw 300 innings in any of those 4 seasons.
Speaking of history,
(without looking) name the Twin/Senator with the highest career OBP
thrylos: my guess:
Eddie Yost
second guess:
Rod Carew
Third guess:
Probably neither of the above are correct.
thrylos, I do realize there are rules in place to keep teams from stockpiling talent, and that’s all well and good. But the “bonus baby” rule hit teams at the major league level. If teams had to burn a major league roster spot to offer a HS kid well above slot value, how many teams would do it… especially teams that expected to be competing for a playoff spot?
I also realize that perhaps for every Koufax who had an abbreviated career, there was also a Warren Spahn who averaged a gazillion innings over the course of a 20+ year career. I just don’t think there’s anything wrong with being a bit more careful about how you use an arm that you’ve invested several years in training.
bisonaudit- Jim Kaat threw 304 innings for the Twins in 1966,the year he won 25 games.He would have won a Cy that year except they only gave one for the entire ML until I believe,1967.
Vic Power ! ! !
Doug,
Thank you, you are correct, I read the wrong line for the AL. The 13 season prior to 66 no AL pitcher threw 300 innings but at least one NL pitcher threw 300 in 8 of those seasons. Differing handleing of starters from league to league? Probably means nothing but struck me as odd.
‘Speaking of history,
(without looking) name the Twin/Senator with the highest career OBP’
I cheated so I won’t give away the answer, but that’s a good question.
I’m not much of an expert on pre-Twins history so if it’s a Senator, I’d have no idea… but the first Twins name that comes to mind would be Carew.
Here are the top 10 (actually 11) ranked Twins/Senators by career OBP:
1. Joe Mauer .397
2. Rod Carew .393
Buddy Myer .393
4. John Stone .392
5. Chuck Knoblauch .391
6. Eddie Yost .389
7. Joe Cronin .387
8. Goose Goslin .386
9. Muddy Ruel .382
10. Joe Judge .379
Matt Lawton .379
So, there is one for Joe who btw, has the highest career OBP for a catcher as well and for a reference (where have you gone) Joe DiMaggio’s career OBP was .398
Where are all those critics of Joe “Baby Jesus” Mauer now? He’s about to be the first Twins player voted onto the All-Star team since Torii was in 2002, and somehow he isn’t good enough. I hope he wins the batting title again. That should shut those idiots up for good.
cmathewson,
Mauer reminds me a bit of Wade Boggs, but Mauer has more power and more speed and he is walking slightly less. Boggs has a career 118 HRs in 18 seasons. Nobody doubted Boggs as a hitter, but lots are doubting Mauer…
i’m among those who believe joe mauer is very valuable as a catcher and an on-base machine — and could still develop a decent power stroke.
but i don’t think being voted onto the fan-ballot all-star team means much. and many would argue that batting titles are window dressing in the grand scheme of baseball stats.
in other words, neither would do much to blunt the joe mauer dissers among us.
It may be window dressing, but it’s incredibly high quality window dressing when you consider the position he’s playing.
There’s literally nothing that will silence the Mauer bashers at this point. If he starts hitting HR and his average and OBP suffers, you think there won’t be complaints about that? Fortunately, he doesn’t seem all that concerned about the opinions of those who think he doesn’t do enough to help his team win.
If you aren’t from Japan and you don’t play in either Boston or New York, you earn your election to the All-Star game. If I’m not mistaken, only three Twins have been voted on since the ‘91 team–Puckett, Knoblauch and Hunter. And one guy has a banner out in right field who was never voted onto the team. I don’t think Rex ever went.
Boggs is a good comp, or Carew. Carew had two seasons of 14 homers. Otherwise he was in single digits. But he was the best hitter the Twins have ever had. Carew was never a great fielder until they converted him to a first baseman. To have the kind of hitting prowess of Carew while playing a premium defensive position at the top of the game is truly special.
OK, I’ll amend my claim. Maybe these idiots will shut up when he’s elected to the Hall of Fame.
Great Stuff today, all around! Special Kudos to Mr. Crikket, Mr. sane, Mr. Dragon and Mr. Carlos G. Understand please Messrs. Dragon and Carlos G. that you are minors in age only when compared to this old coot. Fun trip down memory lane and Carlos, I thought myself to be the only Dodger#1/Twins 1A fan during the ‘65 Series. Mr. sane, you took the cake with your comment regarding the need for a “Sinker” to truly fish for Bottom Feeders. Very Creative. Looking forward to manana.
regarding sane’s comment on the beat writer for the Bottom Feeders: I went with Mr. Fish rather than taking the job because, frankly, I’m naming myself General Manager.
Good idea, Mr. Sinker. That reminds me of the famous “Seinfeld” episode, where an out-of-work George Costanza tells Jerry, “I like sports. I could do something in sports…like the general manager of a baseball team or something.”
Jerry informed him there is not a lot of openings for General Managers, he may have to have a plan “B”.
Daniel,
“Mr. Crikket, Mr. sane, Mr. Dragon and Mr. Carlos G.”
I’m OK with being addressed as “Mr.” sane, although that is more respect than I have yet earned.
However, if you address “T” as “Mr. T”, he will soon be wearing solid gold necklaces and posting:
“AH PITY THE FOOL WHO DISAGREES WITH MY OPINIONS!!!!!!”
Hey Howard,
EVERY one of your posts fails to display on a mobile phone. Other blogger’s posts do show up so find out how they’re doing it and I can read a lot more of your stuff.
Thanks
“However, if you address “T” as “Mr. T”, he will soon be wearing solid gold necklaces…”
Nah. I tried growing a mohawk one time and it just wouldn’t take.
Not to mention I can’t afford bling after Uncle Pohlad cut me out of his will for disagreeing with him on choosing to sign Lamb over starting Buscher.
…I mean, uh…oh crap.
Thanks Daniel1966,
Yep, good memories. I still can’t believe that my mom disposed of all my bb cards when we moved from CA to MN (no room for extra stuff in a pickup and a station wagon).
Howard,
“regarding sane’s comment on the beat writer for the Bottom Feeders: I went with Mr. Fish rather than taking the job because, frankly, I’m naming myself General Manager.”
Of course.
Why would you settle for being beat writer?
If you can’t be the GM, owner and boss in your own fantasy, you need to work on your fantasies.
We need to take attendance on the blogs during winning streaks and losing streaks.
If we corelate wins and losses with whoever posts, we can categorize commenters as:
1) Regulars
2) Front Runners - Bandwagoners
3) Whiners, bitchers and haters.
4) Psychopaths
Then, each category could get their own blog and we could read only the comments that match our own current mood swings.
All good stuff.
ok sane:
1) where is everyone?
2) this is the best twins team ever.
3) even if mauer and young have never been hr hitters they should hit them because we want them to! punto sucks! uncle carl is a cheap old fart!
4) fire gardy, put vavra in jail and make bobby valintine manager!
I also should suggest an alternate name for “regulars”.
How about “jobless”?
gobble,
I think you have preempted every thread possibility.
I have nothing left to do now, except go look for a job.
all i will say howard is that your column is and will continue to put len3 to shame…as far as i am concerned both you and joe are the primary writers for the twins…keep up the great work, as i look forward to it everyday….
sane:
what category do smartasses fall under?
sane psycopaths? so you think some commenters are women too?
Mudcat,
“sane,what category do smartasses fall under?
I believe there are some of us in each category. The categories are seperated by their reaction to the Twins winning or losing.
in college we said win or lose we booze
“According to Castrovince at MLB.com, the Indians have signed reliever Juan Rincon and infielder Tony Graffanino to minor league deals.”
Dang,
How did we miss out on signing this guy and letting Cleveland snap him up:
“He was a reliable setup man from 2003-06, putting together a 2.93 ERA in that time frame. He made more than 70 appearances in the 2004, ‘05 and ‘06 seasons, and his 81 holds from 2004-07 were the second-most in the American League in that four-year span.”
With luck, we may get to see Juanie again… Woohoo!
Carlos G,
You can never be sure that the Rincon of April-May is the only Rincon in that body.
There have been thousands of baseball rebirths after switching teams.
Rincon may NOT be done f-cking up the Twins - he may just continue the job in a Cleveland uniform, rather than in a Twins uniform.
sane,
Tis true. But, I like our chances with him on the mound for the other team more than on the mound for us…
