And now, for the rest of the season
Posted on July 18th, 2008 – 8:23 AMBy Howard
OK, I’m gonna say one more thing about the Morneau/Hamilton lack of recognition thing, just because I almost drove into my garage door when I heard this. Bill Ripken, who I’m usually like listening to on XM, was talking about the contest and said that Morneau would have done the right thing by turning the title over to Hamilton during the postgame ceremony. I love when hyper-competitive people — and pro athletes go into that group by default — tell other people how they should compete.
Here’s a better and more constructive thought: The geniuses from State Farm should have acknowledged Hamilton’s extraordinary performance by cutting a $50,000 check to the Boys and Girls Club that Hamilton was hitting for, in addition to the check for the club that Morneau represented.
That would have been the classy thing to do.
OK, we’re done with that. We are, right?
Not much wisdom and analysis to offer. I’m glad Gardy found a reason to pitch Glen Perkins tonight because that gets the left-hander a start at Yankee Stadium against the left-tilting Yankees in a ballpark that favors lefty pitchers. Did you notice that the Twins get to face Sidney Ponson in the series opener on Monday? Oh, the drama.
I think this is also a good time to stop talking about a Beltre-for-Cuddyer/Livan deal, mostly because the Twins would make it in a second, and there’s no way that the wretched Mariners need an above-average veteran right fielder and another ex-Twins pitcher with a high ERA.
I’m hoping Carlos Gomez went to a batting cage when he went home to the Dominican Republic over the break. I know that having four days off is good for the players, but the days after the All-Star break have been loooooooooong. I did an extra errand last night so I could listen in the car to Johan getting knocked out in the fourth by the Reds. The inning went homer-homer-single-walk-double-triple. That’s homer-homer-single-walk-double-triple.
This sort of analysis has a tendency to be tedious in the wrong hands, but Aaron Gleeman’s midseason report on Twins hitters and pitchers is worth a close read. His take on Morneau: “The shape of Morneau’s performance has changed, but the end result is similar to his MVP-winning campaign. In fact, with offense down considerably across the league this year his .903 OPS is perhaps more impressive than the .934 OPS that he posted en route to winning the award in 2006. He’s on pace for a disappointing 25 homers, but has still been one of the league’s top five hitters overall, ranks third in WPA, and is on track to drive in 110-plus runs for the third straight season.” Go here for the rest. It’ll be worth your time.
If you get to the Dome when the gates open at 5:30, you should be able to catch Hamilton taking batting practice. I suspect the cheap seats will have some extra visitors.
I know we made lots of fun of the Rangers earlier in the season, but I’m glad they’ve gotten it together because their manager, Ron Washington, was one of my favorites to chat with during my baseball writing days. Washington was an offensive-minded three-position infielder. (Think Brendan Harris.) Once, the former Twins general manager Howard T. Fox referred to Washington as “Roberto Duran.” When I looked at him funny, Fox said to me, “You know. Hands of Stone.” That was the first thing I thought of a few years back when I was in the Metrodome press box during a game and Roberto Duran himself was there.
Joe C. had the news yesterday about Liriano’s agent asking the players’ union to investigate whether the Twins are violating the labor contract by keeping Liriano at Rochester. I’m skeptical of any suggestion that the Twins have been dealing shady in their treatment of Liriano, but I don’t blame the agent for being his player’s advocate. One irony that Joe points out: Liriano’s agent also represents Livan, who would be the starter most likely to be evicted from the rotation. After Liriano’s performance early in the season, it’s made sense to bring him along slowly. Very slowly.
At this point, however, I’d be tempted to bring him up next week when the Twins are in New York to get a second lefty starter at Yankee Stadium — and see what happens from there.
other people are here too
123 Responses to "And now, for the rest of the season"
Liriano pitching Tues or Weds would probably convince me to take the day off and drive 3-5 hours(depending on traffic) to the stadium.
Note to Twins: Do not march out any 70 year old pitchers to face Hamilton.
Mulholland, Orosco…that means you two.
trade boof if possible, or put bass on waivers to make room for liriano (wed. start). make livan the long man occasional spot start at home (decent at home, batting practice on the road). gives us the best chance we have with smith not adding any help.
lots of teams making moves, not the twins however.
Bill Ripken is crazy if actually believes that…If Greg Norman wins the Open this weekend, should he turn the trophy over to the player who hit the longest drives on the week?
We didn’t focus much on this aspect of the homerun contest, but if you really want to break it down, in addition to the amazing 28 HRs Hamilton hit in Round One, he also choked big time in the finals. He straight up choked…he was popping balls out of the yard left and right in Round One…and he could only muster 3 in the final round??? 3??? Morneau deserved the trophy, end of story.
Anywhooo…Howard starts the second half of the year with yet another plug for Mr. Free Jason Kubel. My only suggestion is if we’re going to throw him bouquets with regularity, then you also have to accept some tasteful critique of his computer nerd-generated statistics that no player or manager would ever cite and relative overanalysis of just about everything, including babes in the stands.
And speaking of Kubes, the only thing he’s doing better in 2008 than he did in 2007 is hit HRs. He has 13 in 271 at-bats this year, whereas he had 13 in 418 at-bats a year ago. Aside from that, he’s hitting 11 points lower in average than 2007, his RBI per at-bats is pretty much the exact same, and perhaps most alarming, for some reason he only has 9 doubles this year. Oh, he also had 5 SB last year and has 0 so far this year….so we’ll keep our eye on this as our neverending quest to find a five-hitter to back up our Superstar continues.
My take on the Liriano thing…let’s not get too overexcited either way. It always amazes me how fans become shocked and irate when they discover that maybe, just maybe, things aren’t always perfectly rosey between a player and the team that he plays for. We must remind ourselves that pro sports is a business. Having said that, it’s a disturbing story, of course, but guess what, it does look like Frankie should be in the bigs. They have to get this guy up here…either use him in the pen (where we need help anyway) or make him a starter…maybe even a sixth starter as Dick Bremer hinted a couple weeks ago…just get him up here already. He’s wasting valuable performances in Rochester.
Finally, my golfing buddy and I were discussing this over beers last night….the reason baseball has the best All-Star game is because you can’t really go half-way in baseball. In hockey, you don’t necessarily chase a guy down the rink at full speed in an All-Star game or light him up against the boards…in football, you don’t want to Ronnie Lott someone if they go over the middle…in basketball, well, defense is simply frowned upon in the NBA All-Star Game….but in baseball, you’re going to dive for balls…you’re going to gun a guy out at home (as we saw nearly twice in extra innings), and you always want to get a hit at the plate…I suppose the only thing you wouldn’t do would be to pitch hard inside.
Glad to have the Twins back…everyone should hear Thin Lizzy’s Boys Are Back In Town in their heads tonight. Let’s hope this second half doesn’t look anything like what we had a year ago…we could be okay!
t i think that 71 year old guy throws harder than livan!
Jason, I would agree with pretty much everything you said. I like the Greg Norman analogy. I was trying to put that comment in the right frame as well. I think it fits.
Also, damn you for putting that song in my head. So if my co workers kill me for drumming on my desk all day, you will be to blame.
I hope that the Liriano situation will end up ok. I think that Liriano needs to come up and talk to some people he respects (Livan?) about the move his agent did and how that might hurt him on the future. On the other hand, Gardy’s comments today (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080717&content_id=3145975&vkey=news_min&fext=.jsp&c_id=min)
show again how inadequate the Twins’ manager is in developing non-antagonistic relationships and defusing tension with his players.
If I were to take a side, I would take the side of a 24 year old Dominican kid with barely adequate command of the English language over a fifty year old manager who seems to want to vindictively antagonize every one (including his own boss -remember earlier?) who does not see things his way.
The Twins are in a pennant run. Gardy should focus on that and learn that when you are a manager, baseball is a bigger game than the field, and in order to be successful, you need to know how to interact with players, agents, reporters, fans productively. If Gardy cannot do it, Smith should try to motivate him. If he cannot be motivated, the Mets are having a manager vacancy at the end of the season…
Can you imagine if Santana were pitching here right now as an impending free agent, serving up those gopher balls and getting knocked out in the fourth inning?? These message boards would be HOWLING.
Cincinatti plays in a small park, but they are a middling NL club, not the Red Sox. Furthermore, Johan didn’t strike out a right handed batter in his 4+ innings of work, and had only two SO’s total, all against a lineup that has the eleventh-most strikeouts in MLB (Ok, so left-batting Adam Dunn is responsable for a lot of those, but still…).
I loved Johan when he was with the Twins, and I didn’t want to trade him, but it sure isn’t looking as one-sided as the press made it out to be back in January, when some opined that Bill Smith should be *fired*.
i don’t remember him getting knocked out in the 4th when he was with the twins. last yr it was noted that at times it seemed the hitters knew what he was going to trow and they said that last night. is he tipping his pitches?
the bright spot is the mets only owe him another 120m over 5yrs.
Beltre-for-Cuddyer/Livan is not happening, esp. the Livan part. Given that the Mariners are shopping Ibanez aggressively and that their outfield is in a chaotic stage after Ichiro, Cuddy might be a good match for them. Throw in Bonser and someone like Buscher/Macri and this might work for both sides, given that the Mariners are looking to compete in 2009 so they will go for ML-ready talent vs prospects and at this point there are some sizable holes in their rotation.
Re: Silva. I checked his stats the other day and his BABIP is extremely high (.335 rather than the usual .280-.290 for him). I would expect him to rebound the second half.
There have always been fishy circumstances surrounding Liriano and the Twins, haven’t there? In 2006, with Santana as a mentor, Liriano demurred when asked about his original injury, because he was afraid of being sent down or cut. Then, when exploratory surgery didn’t show anything definitive, he decided to have TJ surgery. He was rehabbing in the Dominican, no, in Fort Meyers, no, in the Dominican… his velocity was up to 96, no, it topped out at 88, no, it was in the low 90s… he stuck right to his rehab plan and was in great shape, no, he was overweight…. And this is only the latest in a string of communication problems between the front office, manager, and player and agent.
I guess what I am trying to say is, who knows what the truth is?
(Although I can’t believe the Twins don’t have a bilingual coach at Rochester or with the big league club. That is a $100,000 investment with solid returns.)
I love all the “sour grapes” comments about Johan - many love to see him fail
but everyone needs to be honest about Johan
1)Johan was right when he said during his tenure Twin’s were constantly “rebuilding towards the future” but the future never came!
2)no blog commenter can say Johan wouldn’t be the BEST pitcher on this staff without a severe brain injury or instant insanity
3)throughout his career he has been an average/good 1st half pitcher and been awesome in the 2nd half this year’s numbers are well above his career 1st half stats
4)JOHAN IS BETTER THEN LIVAN!!!
“(Although I can’t believe the Twins don’t have a bilingual coach at Rochester or with the big league club. That is a $100,000 investment with solid returns.)”
with all the very good latin players in the majors now it is a head scratcher why the twins don’t have a latin coach in the dugout and such a lack of minority coaches period.
Please, Santana is fine. His first half numbers with the Mets this year were better than his average first half numbers as a starter w/ the Twins.
I would have like to have kept Santana and he would be the best pitcher on the staff…. if we could have resigned him.
but he is gone 
The only red flag with Santana is the Home Runs given up. They are increasing. However, he is still a sub 3.00 ERA pitcher. Not too many wins, but that’s an inflated stat. (Livan has 9….9?!?!)
Bottom line. He was a stud for us. We have no hard feeling for him, as we traded him at the opportune time. He is a great 2nd half pitcher and will probably pitch the Mets into the playoffs. There is no reason for us to hate on guys like Torii, Johan, and Silva as they left on good terms.
Agree with Rotoblinders…
Plus, you don’t hear the Seth’s of the world and their “Go-go is more valuable than Johan” all of a sudden, do you?
I can’t even tell you how excited I would be if they marched out Liriano on Wednesday….I’m gonna be at that game, one of the two Twins games I will be able to attend live this year (the other one was the 18-5 drubbing by Boston, so they owe me one!)
Santana had the best ERA of his career for a first half this year.
i don’t remember him getting knocked out in the 4th when he was with the twins.
That’s cause he never did. He got knocked out after five a couple of times, but he had the longest streak in the majors of five-plus-inning starts.
We saw towards the end of last year that Santana had lost something. His fastball rarely topped 92. He left his change-up up an alarming number of times. And he had almost nothing on the slider, if he threw it at all. Just when he typically got stronger, he was getting weaker. That’s why I thought they traded him at the right time. He typically starts slow, and if those trends continued, his trade value would be much lower at the break than during the offseason. I think that’s how it has played out. Not to mention the fact that it would be nearly impossible to trade him in midseason with his no-trade clause. Met fans have to be wondering what they can expect from him for the next six years.
I beg to differ on Hunter - he has been a clubhouse cancer for much of his Twin’s career IMO he poisoned Johan so much that he wanted to leave the Twins despite a 20M a year contract
and who can forget Hunter’s “I would love to play here” tour everytime Twins entered a new ballpark to play a series during his “farewell ode to sticking it to the Twins” year
Ok, seriously. Livan provides nothing but sketchy starts, and I know he was a serious investment for us during the offseason and he has the whole veteran, leadership role for our ballclub, but I say we bring Liriano up and let him have Livan’s spot in the rotation immediately. Let’s use Liriano while he’s hot, and he can help us get to the postseason, something Livan’s performances don’t seem to care about. Liriano should come up now.
fire:
4)JOHAN IS BETTER THEN LIVAN!!!
are you sure you want to stake your reputation on such a bold statement?
Fire-
We’ll see what JS’s career stats look like when he is 43 years old like Livan.
ggg - the hysteria from rubes here would make one think Johan is pitching like Sir Sid from last year!!
Well acutally, if you look at remote stats that only geeks who live in their parents’ basement care about, Ponson pitched better last year than Sanatana is pitching this year.
Tweety,
i was lucky…. i was at the 1-0 Boston loss
if punto, the heart and soul of our team, has to go on the dl do you think we’ll fall apart again with a 10 gm winning streak?
People are consistently underestimating what we’d need to give up for Beltre. Cuddyer, Bonser, and Macri/Buscher won’t get it done. The M’s will want at least one top prospect.
Gardy can be a schmuck sometimes. There will soon be baseball people from all across the country (more than there are now) marveling at the obstinancy of the Twins FO by refusing to call up Liriano who can obviously help this team and Gardy will still refuse to acknowledge the wisdom in it or do anything about it because they all said it before him and gosh darnnit, none of them have seen him pitch in Rochester so they can’t know anything about it and they should all mind their business because we don’t want to listen to anybody else and we’re going to do whatever we want!! Admit to yourself that Bass isn’t a MLB reliever and Breslow can be replaced by Livan. You want his leadership and experience? Put him in the long reliever role with the occasional spot start and he can still be a mentor to our young guys.
““(Although I can’t believe the Twins don’t have a bilingual coach at Rochester or with the big league club. That is a $100,000 investment with solid returns.)”
with all the very good latin players in the majors now it is a head scratcher why the twins don’t have a latin coach in the dugout and such a lack of minority coaches period.”
Or why they refuse to have more international scouts, especially in Latin America. It’s a pretty inexcusable lack of foresight if you ask me.
i hope so gobble
Santana in September ‘07:
5GS 1-3 31 IP 4.94 ERA 27 H 17 ER 4HR 11BB 35K
Hardly the finishing kick we rubes prone to hysteria were accustomed to.
Can someone explain the strategic plan of the A’s? At first glance, they would appear to be following the Twins’ strategy of developing and winning with young players. But when their players become good, they dump them, while they are still in contention. I don’t get it.
you guys asking for more international scouts and billingual coaches are forgeting 1 thing - IT COSTS MONEY
Pohlad was begging for his Bud(Selig)to contract the Twins so he could reap a big pay day
Twins under Pohlad have always been about operating on the cheap
“Well acutally, if you look at remote stats that only geeks who live in their parents’ basement care about, Ponson pitched better last year than Sanatana is pitching this year.”
Haha, this is absurd. Can I see some examples of those stats please? Are we talking about those really nerdy, remote stats like strike outs, ERA, and WHIP? yeah, who came up with those crazy stats? They were probably in their parents’ basement though, I’ll tell you that much.
Beltre trade. If it is to happen. We will need to give up a prospect. A good one. I agree with Patrick on that. A package that includes, say, Boof, Valencia, Duensing.
Then we can slip Livan into the bullpen and call up Liriano to start. It depletes our 3B prospects, but who knows maybe Beltre is more than just a rental. His defense and power are things I would like to have around.
Also, from what I heard, Livan is a great influence on young pitchers. I would love to see him stick around in a sort of pitching coach capcity. Maybe he could mentor young latin pitchers like Liriano and Guerra. Having his pedigree and experience would be a great influence on those young latin pitchers and all young pitchers for that matter.
Patrick-
I was being facetious. It seems when anyone tries to make a point on these blogs, someone pulls out some remote stat, few have ever heard of, to refute that point.
People are consistently underestimating what we’d need to give up for Beltre. Cuddyer, Bonser, and Macri/Buscher won’t get it done. The M’s will want at least one top prospect.
Correct, and that’s assuming the M’s even want to trade him. Beltre has a “bust” reputation because of his contract, but he’s still one of the best players on a team with very few bright spots. All he costs is money, which the Mariners have plenty of. And considering what power-hitting third basemen are making in 2008, Beltre isn’t even that expensive.
The Twins can be very competitive just by getting league-average production at 3B, which they should have no problem getting from a Buscher / Macri platoon. The 8th inning is a bigger need both now and long-term with Neshek’s future still very much in question.
The Liriano thing strikes me as not much more than an obnoxious agent wanting to get his big payday. The Twins are either going to put Slowey on the DL or realize that the joke is on any team who claims Brian Bass on waivers.
here are the stats ES16 was talking about in 2007
PONSON-6.93 era 54 hits in 37.2 innings
Johan-3.33 era 183 hits in 219 innings
yep PONSON is much better..
Fire,
Ponson rocks! 
On the other hand, Gardy’s comments today (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080717&content_id=3145975&vkey=news_min&fext=.jsp&c_id=min)
show again how inadequate the Twins’ manager is in developing non-antagonistic relationships and defusing tension with his players.
I took the gist of Gardy’s comments to say that if Liriano’s agent and/or the players union believe they are in charge of the Twins, he/they are mistaken. It seems Liriano’s agent needed to be reminded of that.
I think Francisco should consider new representation. The current guy is not helping him very much.
Fire –
While these are the “popular” stats everyone like to refer to, they do not measure the true value of a pitcher. What your “popular” stats fail to measure is a pitcher’s true value. It is far more important to focus on statistics such as the WERAAR (Weekday ERA After a Rainout), PPSO (Pitches Per Strikeout), QHA (Quality Hits Allowed), and PHM (Pitches that Hit the Mitt). Looking at these statistics paint a clearer picture of pitcher’s effectiveness.
here’s a stat RBNF - Rube Bit Not Funny
This is just a non-related to baseball FYI:
I have a bunch of price increases on my desk for a broad amount of grocery items.
If you can afford to, but some supply before the retails go up again.
that is all.
bring up Liriano!
where’s is everyone??
Either asleep, working, or in Jason’s case, listening to Thin Lizzy.
guess everyone took Shawn’s suggestion and ran for the Grocery Store??
“I’m hoping Carlos Gomez went to a batting cage when he went home to the Dominican Republic over the break”
I’m actually hoping the Gomez stayed away from the batting cage until he got back last night. I think he truly needed the time away from baseball completely. There is a lot of benefit to that!
Anyone read Souhan’s column today?
Journalism 101: Don’t presume to know subject’s your covering unless there’s a basis for it.
Souhan compares the Hamilton / Bradley story to the Twins’ All-Stars and (psst, guess what, this will shock you…) he deems the Twins to have a better story.
In so doing, Souhan reaches this conclusion about Joe Mauer, Justin Morneau, and Joe Nathan:
“three All-Stars who wouldn’t think of derailing their careers with an illegal drug or an irresponsible tantrum.”
Really. Do you hang out with them, Jim? I’ve seen Mr. Nathan and Mr. Morneau at night clubs, both in town and on the road. Obviously this is not the same as doing illegal drugs–and I don’t believe there’s ANYTHING wrong wtih being at nightclubs (or I wouldn’t be there myself), but all I’m saying is I didn’t see Souhan there with them.
Yes, this is classic ‘use perception and make it reality’ journalism at play. You could’ve written how Kirby Puckett would never do anything to alienate his family in 1992, I’m guessing.
There is, of course, the other possibilty: perhaps we should give Souhan the benefit of the doubt and assume that his conclusion IS based on strong personal knowledge. Perhaps, but I think it’s a stretch. To me, if you don’t have someone in your cell phone directory and make regular contact with them (not professional contact), then you don’t really know them.
Food for thought. But yes, Jim, plenty of Minnesotans will be more than happy to agree with you and go on thinking that our All Stars would NEVER get caught up in illegal drugs. Of course, in so doing, they’ve allowed perception to become reality without the proper basis. Unless, that is, I am wrong about Mr. Souhan’s basis for his conclusions.
FIRE,
All of us rubes are out becoming multi-trillionaires, while you big-city-slickers are maintaining the blogs.
So, would Hamilton not winning but then winning anyway because Morneau was so moved by his story and his 28 homers when they didn’t count have also been part of God’s plan for Hamilton? Is Morneau the anti-Christ, then, for not giving Hamilton the trophy?
I’ll paraphrase Bill Watterson in saying, with reference to baseball commentators, I don’t know whether their grasp of baseball or theology is the more appalling.
Journalism 101 also requires proper punctuation…I meant “Don’t presume to know the subjects you cover, unless there’s a basis for it.”
Souhanis just another “HOMER” that for some reason feels so inferior he needs to tear down others so he can feel better.. enjoy what the Twins are and be happy!! all this stone throwing from glass houses nonsense makes MN look smaller and petty
the way the population is shifting, Minneapolis will be alot closer or even surpass some of the big makerts in the next 30 years…. will we still feel inferior then?
“enjoy what the Twins are and be happy!!”
Good advice from the soothing voice of “FIRE VAVRA & GARDY!!!”
For once I actually agree with Souhan. I think he’s right on the money. I have nothing against Hamilton and I applaud his efforts to stay clean, but I’m tired of the hero worship. He hasn’t done anything worthy of the attention he’s getting. Yeah, he sobered up, but people sober up every day. The only difference being that he took his prodigious physical talents and wasted them for a good portion of his youth.
you guys are so full of petty jealous!!
Kirby Puckett in my book did alot worse things then Hamilton and Puckett never repented Hamilton did!!
yeah but Kirby never got praise heaped on him for his mistakes either. That’s all Hamilton gets.
Maybe so, Patrick…but, as The Common Man just correctly stated, you know if Hamilton was a Twin, Souhan would be touting his praises as loud as you possibly could.
My critique above has nothing to do with the ‘homerish’ nature of this story, mind you (although it clearly, clearly is homerism at its core). My critique has to do with making assumptions about the personal lives of athletes and stating those assumptions as though they are facts when they are not based on strong personal knowledge.
Plus, one other problem with Souhan’s premise…it sort of implies that Mauer, Morneau, and Nathan are the only three All-Stars who live clean lives.
your missing the point show me where any media coverage said -”great job Hamilton at doing drugs,wasting 5 years of your mlb career/life,hurting your wife and family”
the stories have “praised”(your word not how I would describe it) him for changing, “repenting” from that behavior
the stories have covered the story fair and balance - it seems perhaps Hamilton is getting this attitude from MN rubes is because he had a change in theology…
Patrick, I just re-read your 12:25 post…
“He hasn’t done anything worthy of the attention he’s getting.”
Tell me you don’t actually believe that.
SethSpeaks says:
July 18th, 2008 at 11:48 am
“I’m hoping Carlos Gomez went to a batting cage when he went home to the Dominican Republic over the break”
I’m actually hoping the Gomez stayed away from the batting cage until he got back last night. I think he truly needed the time away from baseball completely. There is a lot of benefit to that!
I am with you, Seth. I do hope that he went to a game or two of the DSL or played some pickup, just to remember what kind of fun the game can be without the pressure of the majors.
Well…while I agree with Seth and Eric O., I’m hoping that tonight’s lineup card has Denard Span batting lead-off and Gomez batting ninth.
Don’t hold your breath.
does it seem hypocritical for Gardy to take a hard line with Liriano but yet can’t control his own clubhouse?
he’s let PUNTO run amuck so long he taught Tolbert to slide into 1st too!!!
Howard,
Where exactly do you get the idea that Cuddyer is an “above average right fielder”?
Kirby did worse things than wasting two prime years of his life in a drug-induced stupor? That seems a bit harsh towards Kirby. Kirby enjoyed the road as much as a lot of all-time greats such as Mantle, Ford, et. al. But he didn’t let all that stuff completely debilitate him.
I would advocate Kirby’s self-destructive life choices ended his life decades before it should have
Kirby is gone.
Please show some respect…
to get back to baseball the front office doesn’t think the team needs help and there is no place for liriano when livan has an era of 5.44, boof 6.5 and bass 5.31?
new gm just like the old one.
so is punto going on the dl? hope not or we have to listen to dick b cry for 2 weeks.
exactly thrylos and like Jason said how can anyone make assumptions about the characters of people they don’t really know.
State Farm an additional $80,000 to the Boys & Girls Clubs of America in recognition of Hamilton’s performance (bringing their total donation to $250,000).
I just read that the franchise and Livan have the same agent. I wonder if Bill Smith could talk them into swapping places for a month.
That’d be an interesting situation wouldn’t it?
Twins say “Okay, we’ll bring up Liriano. But then we’ll have to release Livan to make room.”
Watch Livan dump his agent right there for costing him his inning bonuses.
Nick,
“Above average” is hardly great praise. I think anyone could give Cuddyer a C+ with a straight face. It’s kind of like “journeyman.” Maybe a half-step above.
aol,
I don’t see that anything like you’re quoting in that link.
BCofND,
You could have read that at the top of this page.
All,
You folks seem kind of cranky today. Just an observation from here.
Swap places! Great idea!
But what’s the rush with Francisco? He’s still recuperating, wait ’til next spring. At the very earliest, let him pitch some after the rosters expand in September. It just isn’t recommended to rush yourself into coming back after Tommy John surgery or reconstructive knee surgery, two very common surgeries in Pro Sports.
Howard every since “Hamilton HR Derby-gate” started folks have been yelling “the world is against us!!”
HOWARD:
Here’s a good one!
Francisco and Livan have the same Agent!
At least that’s what I heard somewhere.
Everyone is way too worked up over this HR Derby thing…
Jason Morneau won the trophy. I saw it with my own eyes. Jason had the camera and microphone on him as he accepted the trophy. The other guy (whose name I can’t remember) didn’t get the trophy. He came in second.
Jason,
That was Jacob Hamilton.
I think the name was Wendy Hamilton.
Second thought, I guess not:
“Current MADD National President Wendy Hamilton……….”.
That’s a women and probably doesn’t party.
It’s a good time for tonight’s line up:
THE MISNOMER TWINS STARTING LINEUP
Twins (54-41):
1. Lefty Gomez, CF.
2. Santiago Casilla, 2B.
3. Jake Mauer, C.
4. Jason Morneau, 1B.
5. Justin Kubel, LF.
6. Bucky Harris, SS.
7. Randy Buscher, 3B.
8. Justin Lamb, DH. (I looked that one up).
9. Darnell Span, RF.
Pitching: El Duque Hernandez
Carl Perkins is pitching tonight.
Marlin Perkins?
(mutual of omaha wild kingdom, get it?)
Got it.
Carl Perkins was a C/W and early rock and roll artist/composer who wrote for Johnny Cash and Elvis.
I should try to make my references relevant to this century.
Mudcat,
Try telling Liriano we want to wait until September if not next Spring for him to come up to the majors. Think he’ll want to stay with the Twins? That’s what I thought.
JED:
Hopefully he has been advised that he is in line to make more money than he ever dreamed of even in his wildest dreams if he follows the professional’s advice. His agent will get a cut of a much bigger pie also, so he should follow the same advice.
While we are waiting for Liriano to come back next Spring, we can watch the scoreboard behind Livan light up like the scoreboard on a pinball machine.
As we drop slowly in the standings.
Everybody’s happy!
Win-win!
You folks seem kind of cranky today. Just an observation from here.
It’s been 4 days since any meaninful baseball was played.
Have mercy. 
Mudcat,
I hope that is true, too.
But c’mon. Liriano is pitchin hard down in AAA. Why don’t we let him pitch hard in the majors? I realize he won’t have the same success he has because he’ll be facing much more talented hitters, but we need to use him while he’s hot. I know we don’t want to rush his return, but we’re in contention right now. I don’t think Livan likes being in contention, and he’s doing everything in his power to get us out of it.
Mudcat,
Liriano knows he can get a huge contract whether he’s called up tomorrow or next Spring. It’s obvious this isn’t about money in his eyes, it’s about respect, and the Twins going back on their word.
Liriano wants to pitch in the Majors again and be a part of a pennant race again, especially since he knows that had he stayed healthy, 2006 could have ended much differently.
The Twins told him in April that he needed to find the strike zone again, get his velocity up, and show dominance at the minor league level in order to be recalled.
Now, after he has bitten his tongue and done exactly that, he has Ron Gardenhire referring to him as “that guy in Triple-A” and gets to watch the Twins games on TV, knowing that he’s likely more talented than every pitcher in our rotation. He gets to watch Perkins struggle from time to time, Livan be consistently awful, and a slew of relievers in the bullpen who can’t touch the stuff he has.
All this while he rots away in AAA, having allowed one run and 18 hits in his last 29 innings.
He’s done EVERYTHING the Twins have asked, and they’ve simply let him down by going back on their word. And Liriano isn’t the only one being let down if you ask me… every person who cheers for the Twins and wants them to have the best chance to win each and every night has been let down at this point too. The Twins, at this point, have lied to Francisco Liriano and every single one of their fans by not giving him another shot.
The audacity of Gardenhire to say, “He was here before. How did he look? How did he look?!” is absolutely shocking to me, and nothing more than a pitiful display of tactlessness by our “beloved” manager. It’s clear that Liriano’s not the same pitcher he was in April, and Gardenhire’s comments, much like Livan’s overall numbers (particularly against the AL Central), are nothing short of pathetic.
Another thing to think about:
Why is it that when Denard Span was putting up fantastic numbers in AAA, Gardenhire repeatedly went on record as saying “We’d love to have this young man on the big league club…” but with Liriano, Gardy won’t even mention his name in an interview?
Liriano’s numbers are even more impressive than Span’s were (which is saying something - Span was putting up out-of-this-WORLD numbers), and yet Gardy completely disrespects him.
Doesn’t make much sense…
Howard am i supposed to read your blog before i post?
BC,
There’s some division of opinion on that, enough that I wouldn’t dare put it to a vote.
Steve:
Span wasn’t recovering from serious surgery, just IMHO.
That’s a good point, Mudcat, and if I thought the surgery was the reason for all of this, then I’d agree with you 100%. However, I don’t think Liriano’s recovery is a concern for them at this point.
If it was, they wouldn’t have let him go into the 8th last night and throw over 100 pitches, most likely.
They don’t seem to be babying him in AAA, or showing signs of concern over his health, and when Gardenhire is asked about it, he simply says that Liriano has to earn his spot in the Majors, not that his health is a concern.
My biggest point of irritation is that a few weeks ago, Gardenhire said Liriano “couldn’t be called up until he was pitching better than one of the current starters.”
Obviously, there’s a large difference between MLB and AAA, but what exactly can Liriano do to show he’s pitching well-enough? Throw a perfect game? How about two? Seems like that’s what it’s gonna take, and that doesn’t seem right to me.
I don’t like that the Twins are stringing along such a vital part of their future. I want to see Francisco wearing a Twins uniform until he retires. While that’s unlikely of course, lying to him about when he’ll be called up only makes it more unlikely.
I also feel like if the Twins front office really wanted to give us the best chance to win every day, Liriano would be a part of the Major League team in some way, shape, or form.
I refuse to believe that Bill Smith and Ron Gardenhire truly feel that Livan Hernandez - or even Glen Perkins or Nick Blackburn for that matter - truly, honestly, give the Twins a better chance than someone like Francisco Liriano. His AAA numbers are just flat out ridiculous, and I think it’s time he was rewarded.
Best thing for the Twins right now, and in the future… also, just IMHO.
Gardenhire will find a way for the Twins not to win the division championship. His usual method is to unnecessarily platoon players in the starting lineup, which detracts from both individual and team performance. If the fans watch Gardenhire’s clumsy moves during the next few months, they will see that he is at fault for most of the team’s loses, believe it or not.
I agree without question that Gardenhire restricts the team from winning more games by his habitual unnecessary platooning of players. He runs the team like a welfare program rather than a major league baseball team.
The Twins would be about 7 to 10 games in first place if they had a decent manager running the team. Gardenhire thumbs his nose at the fans and the writers because he know the team cannot fire him.
PTI just ripped apart the Twins for not calling up Liriano… I hate to agree with Mike Wilbon, but he’s right. If the Twins leave Liriano at AAA and fall out of contention, they deserve to lose.
I missed the first airing of Around the Horn, but I’m curious to see what they say there too.
Depressing that the only time the Twins can get talked about in the national media is when the entire country thinks they’re making a colossal mistake.
So far, excluding readers of these blogs, I haven’t seen a single person not named Bill Smith or Ron Gardenhire who thinks that they’re making the right decision… sigh… Way to further the “The Twins are a small, cheap, small-market team who can’t afford to pay a player” reputation guys. I was hoping Morneau, Cuddyer, and Nathan’s contracts would erase that perception of us. Looks like we took a step backwards.
But what’s the rush with Francisco? He’s still recuperating
If you’re right, I expect he’ll be hitting 100 with his FB and 95 with his slider. Cause he’s already been clocked at 97 with his FB and 90 with his slider. And he sits consistently in the same range he had when he dominated baseball. Honestly, I don’t think he has any recovering left in him.
What’s the rush? We want to win, and he gives the team the best chance to win, especially in the playoffs.
Ron Gardenhire is an embarrassment to the Minnesota Twins. His irrational managerial moves will only become more obsurd as the season progresses. He apparently has an anger management program and a very difficult time dealing with the fans and the press writers which manifests itself in his obeise appearance and eating disorder. His obvious weight management problem makes it even more difficult to function as a baseball team manger. He appears very confused and bewildered most of the time and has a difficult time walking out to the mound because of his ball-like appearance. The Twins organization should provide him with some weight management counseling.
Gardenhire is probably the worst possible manager for an outstanding young team like the Twins. It won’t be long before he starts messing them up by over-managing and manipulating the daily lineup.
I don’t know why people are unhappy with Gardy. The Twins are doing good. Besides, his weight problem and hostile behvior may be result of a drinking problem. Who knows about those rumors? Give the guy a break and focus on the players, not the manager. If the Twins start to faulter down the stretch, Gardy’s perfromance could then be looked at more carefully.
Fire talks about sour grapes and cancer in the cluhouse(or was that cancer of the website).Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!
Jason…
Your post at July 18th, 2008 at 9:01 am…one of your best that I’ve read. Joe better watch out for his job.
My only disagreement (minor). I really believe that if this team ever makes it to a WS, Kubel will be on the team. Intuition! It’s “too-good-a” story if it’s allowed to play out to the end.
T
Jason…
Despite my previous kind words, don’t do this again:
“Journalism 101: Don’t presume to know subject’s your covering unless there’s a basis for it.”
SB
“Journalism 101: Don’t presume to know subjects you’re covering unless there’s a basis for it.”
–
Journalism 102: Spell and grammar check before making journalism jokes (especially to journalists)”
I *get* the whole “internet casual writing” thing, but now you’ve given them ammunition to fight back with.
None-the-less, I’ve got your back.
T
I saw earlier in this comment string a “fan” getting after Gardy? Are you kidding me? “The Mets have a managerial vacancy?” Get real. That 50-year old may be one of the best skippers in baseball. Definately top 5… especially in developing young players. Twins fans are jumping the gun on Liriano… when your team is 21 for 28 it’s hard to justify bringing up a kid that already got rushed into injury right away. Of course Liriano’s agent wants him pitching… it’s about money. Fire Gardy??? Riddiculous.
Also, it’s more Smith’s say on whether or not we’ll see Liriano anytime soon. Not Gardy’s. Livan may not be pitching well, but A) he’s getting good run support when he’s out on the mound and B) he’s the only veteran starter we have in the rotation. Think experience counts in a pennant race at the starting pitching position? Ask the Tigers.
I’m as impatient as everyone else to get Liriano back up, there are too few games left in the rest of this season to squander by leaving out our one pitcher previously dominant at the major league level and now showing it again at least at the AAA level. I’m in the Livan has some value camp (if nothing else, he may inadvertently be the catalyst for the Twins much improved run production this year since the boys know they’ve got to score LOTS of runs to have a chance when he’s pitching) but on any given gameday I have absolutely no doubt Liriano would do much better than Livan.
I’m trying to be optimistic that Billy Smith has something up his sleeves and is working feverishly behind the scenes to pull off some move(s) that would both address some needs AND open up the rotation space to promote Liriano back up. In the past with TR I would never have had that kind of optimism but Smith has already surprised us last offseason. So I’m willing to be patient until 7/31 but not a millisecond beyond then.
I’m very troubled by the ongoing “communication problems” between Twins org. and Liriano and his agent. This does not bode well for future success in signing him to a long term contract once he reaches that point in his service years. Besides the perennial shots by all of us — fans, media, etc. — about the Pohlads’ cheapness, this one player and his agent have been at the center of just about the only negative press for the Twins in the last three years since the national media seldom reports more than the basics such as W-L etc. when it comes to the Twins. In ‘06 there were discussions about the Twins “mishandling” their young phenom with the implication that the Twins had overused him and/or used him when they knew he was hurting. And now this very public spat. In recent years there was also the Hunter-Morneau punchout, Lohse fights door and Romero pouts on the mound. But those were different, there wasn’t the accusation, implied or otherwise, that the team was deliberately trying to harm a player.
I’m not a big fan of Gardy but on this one I can empathize with him since it’s just out of line what the agent is doing and of course the national media loves to jump on the scandals rather than the good play. However, it would appear that Gardy went to the same how to deal with the media training class as Papelbon. He definitely could have made the same points a little more tactfully and not subject himself to “misinterpretation” like the young idiot going into enemy territory earlier this week and inserting foot into mouth re Rivera vs. himself in the ninth.
The Twins really will have a problem if Liriano continues lights out in AAA because they themselves set the criteria last year with Slowey. They said at the time that Slowey was so dominant at AAA that he had to be promoted as there was no more to accomplish down there. Not only will Liriano and agent be permanently soured on the organization, so will the fans and the media circus will be unbearable.
And to those who have been blogging get rid of this pitcher or that pitcher, believe it or not, everybody whether Bass or Livan or anyone, would be snatched up by someone, the pitching situation at the July deadline especially this year is that tight. They would never clear waivers. Even Rincon got picked up. I can’t fault Smith if he is trying to get some value for someone he has to move to make room for Liriano. I’ve previously posted that moving Livan to the bullpen has merit. And to the one or two suggestions on this blog to put Liriano into the bullpen…are you kidding??? This is a big time starting pitcher, he’s already stretched out, why would you want to put him into the pen only to have to stretch him out again later a la Joba??
Jason
Went and read Souhan’s article. Souhan is not the greatest by any means (remember his Yanks are old theory?) but I really don’t think he’s trying to say or even imply that Joe, Joe, or Justin are saints or at least that they don’t like to have a good time like everyone else. Do you doubt (or alternatively do you have proof to the contrary) that all three have never abused illegal drugs and alcohol the way Josh Hamilton has? Ditto for Milton Bradley type anger management issues?? You take Souhan to task for thinking he knows the players well enough to write his article. But why does spotting those guys in a nightclub give you the proof to make whatever point you’re trying to make?
The stories are out there that Justin for one partied hardy in the past and allegedly it was when he decided to get his rest instead that he put up his MVP winning second half in ‘06. But that’s different from the Hamilton story or even the Bradley story. The redemption story unfortunately is more compelling theatre but there have been many comments on blogs that agree with Souhan. It’s great that Hamilton has been able to turn his life around and it’s great that he is speaking to kids not to follow his path. But as adults it’s really not admirable that he went off the deep end to begin with. About as admirable as seeing a bloated John Daly shoot whatever that horrible score was at Royal Birkdale these last couple of days.
Not directed at you Jason, but that business about Justin forking over the trophy to Josh makes me want to barf. The Derby has rules, the Derby has strategy. Justin played by the rules, Justin wisely used the right strategy and Josh did not. End of story. Trophy belongs in Justin’s trophy csse. This is hardly likely to be the last time that Josh Hamilton makes the ASG and the Derby. I would be surprised if he doesn’t win it next year and maybe many years to come. He will if he is strategic. It would have been way cooler if he’d saved that unbelievable display until round 3. And as one of the ESPN guys said, he was the last one up, he knew exactly what he needed to do to get to round 2. He did not have to hit all those HR. And at the risk of getting some nasty comments in response, I would even say (but NOT in a mean way) that the almost compulsive bashing of HR after HR may share some space with the sort of compulsive behavior that resulted in his demons. But as Jason would say, I have no proof and would certainly defer to any blogger with more training than I have in the behavioral sciences.
When are the Twins going to trade Cuddyer, Bass, Hernandez, Punto and Bonser? They are players who only serve to keep the Twins from becoming division champs.
Beisbol,
“believe it or not, everybody whether Bass or Livan or anyone, would be picked up… They would never clear waivers. Even Rincon got picked up”
Rincon cleared waivers. He was signed after refusing a minor league assignment and demanding a release.
Bass may accept the minor league assignment as his resume isn’t as good as Rincon’s.
You can never underestimate the value of a LH starter in the majors. How many teams have a good record aganst LHers. Not many-Twins included. The major questions are what will it take to push the Twins to the next level and will they be willing to do it? History does not bode well in regards to those answers.
Sane, guilty of bad English juxtaposition. I didn’t mean to imply Rincon cleared waivers. Just meant that even with his struggles someone was willing to take a chance on him just as we did with Breslow. Agree that someone like Bass might be willing to go back to Rochester but that’s the sort of risk evaluation (will he or won’t he?)that makes the GM job we armchair GM’s maybe take too lightly.
I think Gardy said a lot of things that needs to be said in the Media. Nobody should be making decisions about what to do with his team except him. In the end it’s his job that’s on the line and he’s the one responsible for answering to ownership for HIS decision. That’s the sign of a real leader. Coming straight from a guy that’s on deployment right now. I see all this griping about the job Gardenhire is doing… I wonder do they know the Twins are ranked 25th in payroll? and are still competiting? Where was all this young talent at the beginning of the season? Who developed this talent so quickly and effectively? I watch teams like the YANKEES not run out every ground ball, not stand up from the bench to cheer their teammates on. Not hustle every play no matter what the score is and I feel a great deal of pride in the manager the Twins have…. GO TWINS!
Morneau, Mauer and the Seven Dwarfs are now TIED FOR THE HIGHEST TEAM BATTING AVERAGE IN MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL AT .281.
Its now time to re-up Vavra’s contract for 10 years.
Its now time for all other MLB teams to send representatives to Joe Vavra’s hitting clinics and to take good notes.
Its now time for Vavra to publish his book:
“The Science of Hitting in the Major Leagues - My Critics Can All Suck it!” by Joe Vavra.
A Pulitzer Prize winner for sure.
Must really suck to be a habitual bitcher around here right now. Livon, the guy everyone wants replaced, holds the hottest offense in the league to 2 runs on a handful of hits over 7 innings. Mauer and Young both go yard. Buscher, the other guy everyone wants to replace, launches one, as well. So who should we whine about? How about Punto… sure he’s having a good season but he’s hurt so he’s fair game. Gardy’s always good for some grief… after all, all he’s done is take a team nobody expected to even be competitive and has them within half a game of leading the division. And still all the arm chair GMs think they can do better than Smith and his staff at their jobs. Pretty amusing
Very true sane, though I’m sure you’ll agree if the Twins lose today then Vavra will immediately need to cancel his clinics, discontinue his book, and of course: be fired.
T,
That is what I meant by “Its NOW time”.
Twins face off against Ponson tonight for the….third time? (2nd team?)
If he manages to shut them down again, I think some thought needs to be given to sane’s suggestion to fire Rick Anderson for not helping him find his groove with the Twins.
I think the problem is that Sid was sober while he was with the Twins. Based on what happened in Texas, clearly he is no longer on the wagon. Fits right in with the Yankees.
