Cranky reactions to a lousy loss
Posted on July 22nd, 2008 – 7:52 AMBy Howard
More than anything, it was probably the sight of Sidney Ponson shutting down the Twins on a night when he had mediocre stuff. That’s what it looked like watching him and that’s what he said during a postgame interview on the Yankees broadcast.
Or it could have been the give-up at-bats that seemed to permeate the batting order after the Twins fell behind 6-2. There was a little too much flailing at the plate when a measured approach could have wreaked some havoc against a pitcher who said he “got behind a lot of guys.” Where were the intelligent at-bats of last week’s Detroit comeback?
Or maybe it was watching Denard Span (.424 on-base percentage) go 3-for-4 while batting ninth and Carlos Gomez (.281) going 0-for-5 in the leadoff spot. This simply has to stop. I was willing to give Gardy benefit of the doubt last week, but after the last two games, charity has left the keyboard. (For the record, 74 percent of the 3,400-plus people who voted in our “poll” yesterday said Gomez should be batting ninth.)
Or maybe it’s my suspicion that Morneau’s hand was bothering him at the plate last night, despite the reports that he’s fine. That was an ugly 0-for-4. Please let me be wrong on that one.
Or it could have been watching the Yankees play small ball when they went from a 2-2 tie to a 6-2 lead in the seventh with an assortment of just-barely hits and Alexi Casilla’s unfortunate bouncing throw home that Mauer couldn’t contain.
Or maybe it’s the silliness about Nick Blackburn being “too strong” after his eight-day layoff — and having Dick’n'Bert cite that as a reason he stunk last night. If the Twins had been concerns about Blackburn being “too strong” they would have:
a) Started him on Friday so he would have been pitching on his usual rest.
b) Had him work a strenuous bullpen session between starts to keep his arm “tired.”
Sometimes, pitchers simply have stinky outings. At least Ron Coomer, watching from the stands, pointed out that his fastball was flat instead of sinking and Blackburn said the layoff wasn’t the problem.
Also, after watching the All-Star Game last week, I didn’t need to see great Yankee and Yankee Stadium moments again during a Twins telecast. It seemed hollow by comparison and hokey, all the more when they cut away at one point to show Coomer’s first at-bat home run during his stint with the Yankees. (Keep in mind, of course, that everything I’ve written about so far left me in no mood to listen to happy talk about enemy property. As I keyboard, my calm self is urging my mad self to chill. “Yo, self. If the Twins were ahead 12-4 would … this… bother… you???)
If the Twins broadcast crew wants to do something special the next couple of games, they should show Morneau’s home run off Ron Villone two years back — and his scowling-and-growling run around the bases because of the earlier game when Villone beaned Morneau. Or show Shannon Stewart running into the wall to make that catch during the ‘03 playoffs. Or even the Don Mattingly home run that caused Ron Davis to break down and cry in the Yankee Stadium clubhouse back in the mid ’80s. (Morning Update: And, of course, they should show Bert’s F-bombin’ intro from a couple of years back. How could I effin’ forget?)
Just don’t show me any more Derek Jeter and A-Rod moments.
Growl, grumble. Twins are only a half-game out. Good job in Chicago, Josh Hamilton.
Get ‘em tonight.
other people are here too
128 Responses to "Cranky reactions to a lousy loss"
Nice analysis Howard- I share much of your sentiment this morning. Something’s got to give with Gomez…
I’ve got to think Gardy will move Gomez in the next few days here. He had a good game either Friday or Saturday and then right back into his hole.
I’m still hoping Smith can figure something out on the trade market. Was disappointed to see Seattle wanted way too much for Beltre…
The Twins never seem to play well against the Yanks. Can we bring in someone to hex the Twins to ignore the vaunted history and big paychecks of these guys so we can start treating them as human?
And, because I may be the only Twins fan in Lexington, KY, let me post a link to an article written by one of the local paper’s sportswriters on Twins prospect Ben Revere, a Lexington native. The Twins mgt. folk seem to feel he could possibly hit .400 in A ball this year:
I’m tired of seeing the Twins curl up in the fetal position every time they take on the Yankees. It’s annoying. They have some sort of inferiority complex with them. Even when the Yankees aren’t playing great ball, they can have a series with the Twins to right the ship.
Last night was way too predictable before any pitch was even thrown.
i think what we see is this team is a pretender not a contender. can anyone see livan being our ace in a playoff series? to many young players with little or no late season exp. how many pitchers have post season exp. boof? we have 2 black holes, monroe and lamb that contribute nothing. buscher is a terrible fielding 3b. our starting outfield has a grand total of 3 yrs ml exp. if cuddy comes back he was having a normal yr (not good) and has been over rated since 06, no 3b man and a patched together ss with a couple utility guys. they may stay in the race because the div is weak, but to think this team with zero or very little post season exp. and livan as our ace can “compete” in the post season, don’t think so.
Chubby Ponson was really working hard the first two innings but after that the Twins batters just handed him the game. You are right - he had mediocre stuff. Twins batters have hit MUCH better pitchers earlier this year.
Until last night our starting pitching has carried us, right now that is the key to staying in the playoff hunt. I hope game 1 of the series was an aberation.
I have slowly come to the conclusion that Gomez needs a change. Is his confidence the problem? Or does he have too much confidence to listen to coaching have better at bats?
I don’t think a trade will happen. We are having success with what we have, and would probably have to give up too much to get someone like Beltre.
When the Twin’s play in Yankee Stadium or Fenway Park, they are an automatic 4-5 runs down before the first pitch is thrown! Intimadation is a terrible thing. Last night it looked like a minor league team would have a better shot at beating the Yankees. If Minnesota styles themselves as a post season team they have to be able to win in New York or Boston.
at some point Gardy needs to be held accountable for his team’s lack of preparation when entering NY I believe Gardy’s record is 3-19 there? anyone with exact record?
NOGO needs to be put in the 9th spot!! Gardy says one day that NOGO is supremely confident then when pressed about moving him down the lineup Gardy says “I don’t want to hurt his confidence” he was quite slow moving to summon BOOF from the pen last night too I guess he didn’t sleep in a Holiday Inn last night………
…and another thing. I thought our Twin’s prided themselves as the team that has no quit in them, the team that never gives up and plays all out the entire game. Last night there was plenty of quit in our boys. It was extremely embarassing.
DG
Yeah that big oh-fer-five sitting in between the 3 hit nights of Span and Casilla is pretty glaring. Sure might have been nice to have Span and Casilla getting those hits back-to-back occasionally, wouldn’t it?
I was just as surly last night, Howard. I’ve had it with all the “reverence” we’re all supposed to feel toward Yankee Stadium. It’s a dump that should have been wrecking balled 20 years ago instead of remodeled. It’s fine for Yankee fans to have an appreciation for it (I feel the same way toward the Met)… but the rest of the country just doesn’t friggin give a rip, ok? For FSN to be forcing Twins fans to genuflect toward that oversized outhouse is rediculous.
The most frustrating part for me was watching that second inning and wishing LNP/Kcin Ontup had been playing- 2B, SS, or 3B.
Extra fun for me was watching the YES network broadcast and hearing about the greatness of Jeter for three hours. What a bunch of syncophants.
Yes, when will Gardy see the light regarding NoGo. How many ‘grounders to the shortstop’ will it take?
I with you Howard haven’t we heard enough about the great Yankee stadium I wonder how much time the Yankees will spend talking about the dome next year.
After watching Blackburns battle with Molina in the second i knew it was going to be a bad game for him.
Howard,
at least you didn’t have to watch the game on YES
Shawn,
I feel your pain.
Personally, I think every time we play the Yankees there should be some sort of fanfare and tribute. It just really adds something to the game, don’t you think? Kidding, kidding! 
I’m with ya Howard. Good God, we can play better than this. Now let’s redeem ourselves today!
Whiteness: I hate to admit it, but I was having similar thoughts about LNP/Kcin Ontup.
If his hand is really healthy, I’m guessing Punto is in the line up tonight… and I’m fine with that. It’s not just the media that is awed with all things Yankee. Obviously we’ve got some kids who are, too. It’s time to get guys out there who aren’t ga-ga over just being in the stupid building.
at some point Gardy needs to be held accountable for his team’s lack of preparation when entering NY
How do you “prepare” a team for the supposed mystique of Yankee Stadium? That’s all mental. The best Gardy can do is take the guys out on the field and go through the same hitting/fielding/pitching warmups to give them a chance to get the feel of stadium.
At the end of the day, it comes down to the player to not turn into a headcase just becaues of where they are playing.
The two major talking points coming out of last night would have to be Go-go (as in Go-go to the 9th spot in the order) and Blackburn.
Yesterday on this blog I suggested that the Twins make a fair evaluation of what they think of Liriano and, after being honest with themselves, admit that he is a top 2-3 pitching talent in this organization and therefore absolutely should be in the majors if he’s ready to go.
It’s actually quite unusual for Gardy to stick with short term trends in favor of a long term plan, but that’s precisely what he’s doing with this pitching rotation.
Nick Blackburn and Glen Perkins were not supposed to be in this rotation this year. I’ll bet if you would’ve asked Gardy when Liriano was sent down if it was possible he would spend the entire year at AAA even when he returned to form, Gardy would’ve said “hell no–he’s going down there to figure himself out, then he’ll be back up here.”
So the point is why are fooling ourselves here? Yes, Blacky (as Gardy would call him) and Perkins have fared well. But those two guys aren’t nicknamed “The Franchise”.
I honestly believe that Liriano is a big game pitcher and as someone mentioned above, it’s getting awfully tiring seeing the Twins crumble under the white hot spot light of Yankee Stadium. We know the Twins aren’t willing to get “creative” in their use of Liriano…I think it’s time to do it the old fashioned way–make a tough decision; get him up here and demote someone to AAA. It’s not going to kill Perkins or Blackburn to spend 5 weeks in Rochester.
Other disappointing things from last night…
Gardy said in his pre-game radio interview with Dan Gladden that the team has to catch the ball at Yankee Stadium or they were going to give up runs. He was exactly right; we didn’t catch the ball and the Yanks made us pay.
In two straight Twins’ losses, the opponents have trotted out Eddie Guardado, Sidney Ponson, and LaTroy Hawkins. Not fun.
I hope everything’s okay with Jason Morneau…just looks like he’s been swinging at bad pitches the last couple games…I hope he breaks out of it tonight; the sight of Mike Lamb at first base is enough to have me flipping the channels for re-runs of George Lopez.
Let’s get this one tonight!
I agree with alot of you. Gomez is not fit for a leadoff hitter. Put him on the bench and let him watch other hitters for a few days or send him down to AAA. Now I like Nick Blackburn as a pitcher even when he has a bad day. But if another club wanted a starting pitcher to consumate a trade with us, then I say trade Blackburn….
I can’t believe leaving Gomez in there when he is struggling so badly is good for his confidence either.
I don’t live in mpls anymore and have been watching games on mlb.tv, where they always show you the home telecast, which means I have to watch it on YES, which greatly increases the possibility that I will throw my TV and my laptop out the window… I couldn’t see the game last night but if there is a repeat and I have to listen to freaking Michael Kay and David Cone or whoever they have up there now gushing about a Yankees comeback this year its going to be a long night…
JustinCB, who would you wager is worse…the YES annoucers or the White Sox crew?
Or do you not have enough of a sample size to compare?
Someone watching on YES last night mentioned that Michael Kay twice mentioned Liriano and how he was coming back from a “shoulder” problem. That pretty much tells you what you need to know about Yankee broadcasters. (But don’t try to tell Yankee fans that Kay isn’t the best in the business.)
last 14 days: gomez .075 ave, .098 obp;
span .382 ave, .462 obp.
last 28 days: gomez .177 ave, .218 obp;
span .370 ave, .477 obp.
this appears to be gardy being stubborn, and possibly costing us some wins doing so.
we must remember that doing things the “right” way are more important than winning.
T, personally I don’t need any kind of sample size to opine that nobody… anywhere… at any level… is worse than Hawk and DJ on BitchSox broadcasts.
Harrelson isn’t as bad as he used to be. I always question DJ’s ability to talk hitting strategy with Hawk. At least Harrelson won a batting title. DJ was a career .257 hitter. But, I was surprised to learn that he hit 38 homers for the Padres from 1991-92.
Hawk and DJ are an abomination to broadcasting. However I’ve said it way too many times, so I won’t get into it again.
So leadoff discussion today. Frankly, Gomez is driving me batshit insane with his at bats in the leadoff spot. He swings like Jacque Jones, and amazingly makes contact like Jacque, or should I say misses. It’s frustrating to think that in the 1st inning Casilla will start out with an out. I know Go-Go is our future leadoff guy, and he has loads of potential, but right now, in a pennant race, he is not the guy.
I will probably be more negative today than in most days, but last night’s game was about as frustrating as they come. I don’t know if it was the defensive mistakes, the crappy at bats, or the fact that we had crappy at bats against Greasy Sid.
I will defend Gardy to the grave. He keeps us in contention through August every year, which I don’t remember happening much in the mid to late 90’s. However, what is it about the Yankees that makes him go fetal? It drives me bananas. Even when they are bad, they play like the ‘96 Yanks against us. I’m guessing the Yankees could put the current Terry Mulholland on the mound, and the Twins would still lose. Stupid.
wow this is the best we have to hope for??? “I will defend Gardy to the grave. He keeps us in contention through August every year, which I don’t remember happening much in the mid to late 90’s”
I would rather a manager take a talented team like one that had a Cy Young winner, MVP, batting champ, elite closer and actually win a freaking playoff series…
I’m just saying. He takes a perrenial underachieving team and keeps them in contention. I think you are glossing over one portion of that 2006 season you are complaining about. I’m pretty sure Gardy got the team going in June and did a hell of a job getting the team back in the race and winning the division. I’m just out of college, so I’ve only been watching baseball 15-20 years, but I would say that is one of the best managing jobs I have seen.
But really FIRE, explain to me why we should fire Vavra and Gardy. I’ve never heard your name explained, and I’m kinda curious as to the reasoning. Enlighten me.
it originally was a sort of a joke because when I started on these blogs all it was was FIRE this person cut that person.. original moniker included PUNTO.. I do truly advocate that PUNTO should not be a starter, Gardy I think has lost it in recent years.. initially I thought he was a refreshing change from TK but it seems the years have worn him down and he lacks passion and guts now.. VAVRA is easy to explain - until this present year Twins have not had an offense in top half of AL since 1992
Gardy has one real weakness and it’s his pigheadedness about certain things. He starts out feeling he’s right and the more people tell him he’s wrong, the more stubborn he gets. It’s a character flaw… and one not unique to him. A lot of managers have it. But it’s a frustrating thing for fans, I grant.
I’d like to revisit a week-old issue briefly. After the AllStar game, many people (including me) were critical of the way Willie Mays appeared to ignore Josh Hamilton during the introductions. On that subject, in Joe Pasnanski’s blog yesterday, he related part of an email he received from Jim Hirsch, who’s in the process of writing a Mays biography:
“As you suggested, Willie has glacouma and, though he retains some vision, is legally blind. He also wears a hearing aid but still has trouble, particularly in that type of environment. As the only Hall of Fame centerfielder, he was standing by himself and had no one to prompt him. Bottom line, he never heard is name called and he didn’t see Hamilton until too late. He was poorly served by Major League Baseball, and it’s regrettable that he is now being attacked for it.”
Good enough for me and I’m sorry I thought ill of him.
we have debatted on these blogs and seem to come to a majority conclusion that canning VAVRA would not solve Twin’s organization problems with developing hitters right from drafting the right hitters.. a philosophy change needs to happen with drafting first.. Gardy I am stuck on.. he is maddening with his crazy use of his bullpen(Bass in the 8th inning of a tied game..etc..) though this team somehow with smoke,mirrors, and pixie dust is 1/2 game out of 1st I expected them to be 10 games out by now and looking to firesale Nathan
jimcrikket thats too bad about Willie but does explain what happened. I thought it was odd that he would snub anyone because he has always seeemed like a good guy to me.
“though this team somehow with smoke,mirrors, and pixie dust is 1/2 game out of 1st I expected them to be 10 games out by now and looking to firesale Nathan”
Not to nitpick, but I would call that good managing. He does screw up things and he has a tendency to annoy the hell of out people, but you can’t argue with results. He gets them in a position to win the division every year. Vavra is a BA Hitting Coach and that’s it. He is great at getting guys to hit for average and get on base. That is why the Twins consistently bat at the top of the league. Sometimes that gets them up there in runs scored, sometimes it doesn’t. However, like you said, the organization needs to start drafting power hitters if they want any in the bigs.
But I see where the joke moniker comes from. It is even more apparent if you go to the Vikings one. That’s one blog I shy away from. But yes, Punto is not a starter. Super utility guy, but not a starter.
hmmm. interesting on willie mays. i had wondered about that. the situation didn’t seem mays-like. thx JimC.
How do you “prepare” a team for the supposed mystique of Yankee Stadium? That’s all mental. The best Gardy can do is take the guys out on the field and go through the same hitting/fielding/pitching warmups to give them a chance to get the feel of stadium.
Gardy should adapt the classic scene from “Hoosiers.” Take out the tape measure…”see Blackburn, 60 feet and six inches to home plate, just like the dome.” “What’s that say from first to second there, Denard? Eighty-nine feet or so? That’s what I thought.”…etc.
I’ve read many comments on the internets in recent years why Gardy can never just be patient with young players. Tell someone ‘your my guy’ and just let him play through it. Out of the frying pan and into the fire and all that. Now he has done that with Gomez and most everyone wants him to stop it yesterday, if not sooner.
Same goes with the ‘jerking around’ syndrome. To hear some tell it, Gardy jerked Cuddyer all over the batting order and the diamond. Same with Kubel, to the extent that he needed to be “freed.” But, now with Liriano chomping at the bit, why let’s just jerk Blackburn or Perkins to Rochester, or Livan to the pen to make room. If that’s not jerking around another player, what is?
I found Gardy’s comments about Gomez batting lead off with such poor OBA that “it only comes into play once a game” to be ludicrous. The leadoff batter ends up with more plate appearances than any other batter. Thus OBA is crucial for a #1 man in the order who will set the table the whole game for the guys behind him not just in the first inning. I can’t think that Gomez’ confidence is too high after 0-5 and piling up the strikeouts. A mental break to the #9-a second lead off- position is certainly in order.
Even IF Alexi Casilla’s unfortunate bouncing throw home that Mauer couldn’t contain was NOT a bounce but an accurate throw, Mauer’s foot wasn’t even on the plate.
Mr. Cricket, As always you provide quality stuff. Much thanks. I am reading Joe Posnanski’s fine book about a great man and player, Buck O’Neill. Highly Recommend it. I have a question though…how do you really feel about Yankee Stadium and the White Sox TV crew? Just asking. Pardon me while I DUCK.
Mauer’s foot wasn’t even on the plate.
Makes sense, since Mauer would have to come off of the plate to stop the ball once it hit the dirt.
*hmmm*
Criminy, will the “fire Gardy” folks kindly STFU? He has a team with three really good players, a couple decent young pitchers, and a bunch of mediocrities and has them in contention. I don’t agree with everything he does, and I disagree with him philosophically on a lot of things, but before the season who saw the Twins contending at the end of July?
Amen Gus…Amen.
Casilla should have just taken the out at 1st. It didn’t even enter my mind that he’d go home with that ball until it was halfway to the plate, otherwise I’d have been out of my chair and yelling before it bounced.
There’s no way that should be thinking in the bottom of the second against the Yankees w/ Ponson on the mound that three runs will win that game. Take the out at 1st, give up the run.
They’re so in our heads.
Cranky! Hell…I was pissed watching Gardy sit on his hands when Nick was struggling so bad; I would have pulled him after the throwout attempt by Casilla. I would have delayed the pitches so a guy like Bonser could get his warmups in; Gardy started warming him up about three batters later. I also hated how long it took to Blackburn to throw; it dragged on and on and on and on; I think I saw an outfielder sleeping with his glove on his face.
Thanks for the headsup JC! It really does help put a nagging little issue to bed so I’m glad someone thought enough to follow up on it elsewhere as well.
There were few moments to enjoy in last night’s game but I have to say that my favorite was in the postgame interview.
It’s definitely a smaller audience watching that portion - especially after a game like that - but for the people who got to hear Gardy comment on the “good night for Liriano’s agent” and then the very adamant explanation that it “was a JOKE” a la Jesse Ventura sure had me giggling for the first time all evening. Glad to know that Gardy retained some measure of perspective and will come back tonight to play again.
I really do wish that our boys were mentally able to get their collective tukhuses in gear to play BASEBALL when in Yankee Stadium. None of our pitchers could throw worth a blink last night and I mentioned to others last night that the fielding looked like an audtion for Ringling Bros. My hope is that they got it all worked out of their system and will be ready to play tonight.
Tonight is the night that there is movement in the batting order! Gomez will be dropped down; the Twins don’t have a choice. We would have much better run producers at the top with Span and Casilla hitting one and two, preceded by Gomez hitting ninth. The speed then stays in tact, three batters in a row. And leaves Gomez in the lineup with less pressure on him. I think he takes each at bat almost too serious. He might hurt himself.
T, yeah… and Joe’s foot was plenty close to the plate until he had to go down to try to dig up the lousy throw. I’m not sure if Frank’s intent was to try to shift blame for that to Mauer but, if so, it’s way off base. Casilla f’d up. Period.
Daniel, if a giant sink hole swallowed up Yankee Stadium, its team, its owner, its broadcasters and a stadium full of its fans, I’d be a happy man. If it happened to occur during a game with the BitchSox, I’d throw a friggin party.
hard to imagine we’re debating the merits of one play in a game the Twins got beat 12-4, but as long as we’re going there, I actually thought the move by Casilla to throw home was a good decision; he just has to make an accurate throw there….a good throw nails him by plenty.
I also thought the call at home on Brendan Harris was completely blown (he looked out to me), but of course, no one wants to dissect it when the Twins catch a break.
Seattle will cave on Beltre–despite what they think they are NOT a year from contending again. They gave away Jones and Sherrill and depleted their farm system. They signed Silva–nuff said. Obviously they’re not very smart, so we can get Beltre for one prospect and one MLB arm (Bonser).
Then the lineup will look like this:
Span
Casilla
Mauer
Morneau
Beltre
Kubel/Cuddyer
Young
Punto/Harris
Gomez
Clearly the Casilla to home play didn’t end up meaning anything in retrospect, but 1) in context, I believe it was a poor decision. Take the sure out, give up the run. 2) it illustrates the pressure we put on our selves when playing these guys.
“How do you “prepare” a team for the supposed mystique of Yankee Stadium?”
You drill an attitude of “dis-respect” into your players when there is the threat of opponent awe.
Ted Williams taking batting practice yelling at the “imaginary” Whitey Ford to throw his “chicken sh-t little curve ball” is a perfect example.
Tell them Yankee Stadium is a big outdoor toilet!
Babe Ruth was a fat lush!
The pitchers should be self-talking about A-Rod’s “gutless in the clutch” history.
Have your pet dog urinate on the field.
Too much respect for the Yankees is deadly and it has killed the Twins over and over.
Put a stop to it!
yeahh, gomez needs to bounce out of this slump or go for assignment or something.
and good job josh hamilton in chicago.
keeping us a 1/2 game back.
Jason, Casilla obviously felt he had to rush his throw home… so that made it the wrong decision. Was it responsible for giving up a dozen runs? Of course not. The play at the plate may have been a missed call, but to debate that would lead to a discussion of the umpiring in general (for example the way the plate was 2 feet wide for Ponson) and there’s no point in umpire bashing after a blow out.
sane, I couldn’t agree more. There’s an article on the “other” TC paper’s web site about Gardy even made his players line up for pregame introductions inside the foul line a couple years ago because he saw that’s how the Yankees were doing it and he didn’t want to do it “wrong”. What garbage! It’s one thing to respect your opponents… it’s totally something else to be in awe of them and it’s time to put that crap to rest. If I were managing or pitching tonight, my first pitch to Saint Jeter is right over the top of his head. It’s time to send a message, not only to the Yankees, but to my own team.
T -
Now that one is debatable, Despite Hawk Harrelson surely being one of the most pompous announcers around (watching AJ belt a homerun off of Boof or something followed by the ‘you can put it on the boards, yes’ line is really, really unpleasant), I really gotta give it to the clowns at YES… At least the White Sox don’t really have the track record to warrant such arrogance, which just makes it (a little bit) humerous.
no one wants to dissect it when the Twins catch a break.
I frankly couldn’t tell. The shot I saw the most had the ump (or maybe the on-deck hitter?) in the way.
It looks like what happened is that Harris was tagged before he got to home, but the ump likely was watching the plate instead of further up the line.
Which is odd…since usually in a situation like that the guy is out bu so much the ump doesn’t bother to do anything except ring him up.
“Clearly the Casilla to home play didn’t end up meaning anything in retrospect, but 1) in context, I believe it was a poor decision. Take the sure out, give up the run. 2) it illustrates the pressure we put on our selves when playing these guys.”
Thats partly a staff decision.
If the infield is playing halfway (staff decision) and the ball is hit (not topped) directly at an infielder, he is supposed to throw home. IMO that ball was hit directly at Casilla and he made the right decision, (he had enough time) but he bounced the throw.
If he was in double-play position or back position, (also staff decisons) then Casilla made a bad choice to throw home.
Good post, Howard. Thanks. Ponson + Yankee Stadium = A Twins loss. I don’t know why those two give us so much trouble, but they always seem to. Maybe it’s that they’re about the same size. Zing!
Gardenhire has no excuses at this point to keep batting Gomez lead off and the one good thing about it if he does is that maybe the media will finally start questioning him. He talks about protecting Go-Go’s confidence but how does it help Gomez when he continually goes 0-5? That’s got to hurt the kid’s self-esteem just as much as moving him the lineup would.
T, I prefer to think that the plate umpire was just giving the teams what they say they want… consistency. He consistently considered home plate to extend a good 6 inches wider toward third base while Ponson and the Yankees were in the field, so he simply applied the same principle in Harris’ case… as long as he got his hand within 6 inches of the corner of the plate before being tagged, he was safe.
sane, I’d have to go back and look at the play again from the beginning, but at the time, I didn’t think Casilla was playing half way. I thought he was back a bit far, came in a few steps to field the ball (still picked it up behind the runner passing in front of him), and threw home. In other words, I thought the middle of the infield was playing for two.
anyone think the line shot by Abreu, close to Blackburn had him a little nervous and contributed to his bad outing? Replay on ESPN looks like he had that deer in the headlights look after the at-bat.
They were playing for 2 up the middle and the ball was hit to slowly. To me the correct mental approach as a middle infielder in that situations (1 out, tied game early, bases loaded) is, if I can’t get the double play, make sure I get 1 even if it costs us a run.
with as many very good plays as casilla has been making, a “possible” error in judgement is excusable. how many bad throws has buscher made since he came up? every throw is an adventure.
punto hits leadoff tonight! he’ll get the team turned around, with his gritty play and battle till the end attitude.
T hit the Harris play dead-on: the ump was in terrible position to make that call.
There’s absolutely no way that at least part of Molina’s glove didn’t touch part of Harris’ hand before Harris was able to touch home plate, based on the replays. But the ump’s angle blocked him of that reality…all he saw was Harris’ hand get in there after the fact.
As for the Casilla thing…it’s easy to overanalyze…I like the aggressiveness…all he has to do is make a good throw there and the out is recorded…by “rushed”, what you guys really mean is overly nervous…a good throw nails the guy at the plate, case closed. I know it’s early in the game…but if you go to first for the out…it’s 3-2 Yanks and you still have 2nd and 3rd with two outs….a base hit away from having it become 5-2. If I’m Gardy I applaud Casilla for the aggresiveness in that situation.
The correct play by Casilla was to first for the sure out.You have two outs and your one pitch away from getting out of the inning only down a run after two innings.If I’m Gardy I politely remind Casilla that it’s plays like that that got him sent to AAA early in spring training.
Maybe I wouldn’t be so burned up about it if Harris hadn’t of shown bunt in the top of the 2nd down 2 w/ runners on 1st and 2nd and zero outs. Why play for 2 there?
I don’t think anyone is going to slam Casilla too bad, even if it was the wrong decision (which there’s certainly some room to debate over). I think the only point worth making is that it was emblematic of the skittishness the Twins seem to have whenever they play in NY. It’s not totally beyond comprehension that kids are going to be a bit nervous in that environment. That’s where the Twins need some leadership… someone to point out (and demonstrate) that it’s just another dump of a ballpark with a bunch of ignorant fans… and an opponent that isn’t nearly as good as people seem to think they are.
We lost last night, it’s going to happen at least 1/3rd of the time, but that would leave us in great position. Of greater importance is not our frustration as fans, or coaches second guessing, but how the game is played tonight. Will they play well, and be aggressive? They might do both those things and still lose, could even be swept by the Yankees, it’s happened before and to others. Still this group has found a way to come back from their frustrations and play the game. You play the game, the way it’s designed and the good things will follow.
I think we need to see how the next two games are played out before you go with the “Ghosts of Yankee Stadium ” bit.The Twins just played a bad game last night.They pitched poorly,didn’t make the plays in the field,and took bad at bats.
If they get thumped twice more I may reconsider,but I’d still be more inclined to think the Twins just got beat by a better team.It’s not the ballpark,it’s the players who play in that ballpark.
Crikket - Yankees have the same record as the Twins, I think we can stop with the “this is a terrible Yankee team” mantra - this team still has a far better offense then the Twins, their closer is the best ever, and their starting pitching has tons of experience and their ERA is better then the Twins and they have more stolen bases then the Twins!!
As far as the mystique nonsense, we better only be talking about that for fun, because if any of that garbage truly would come into play, then I think the Twins might as well close up shop.
I quote Mark Grace:
“We’ll give them ‘aura’ and ‘mystique’, we have ‘ring’ and ‘championship’”
The pitching staff is an aberration we’re lucky to be where we are. I refuse to sit here and watch these pitchers and our playoff hopes fallapart. We have the best lefty in the AL in the minor leagues throwing shutouts. Bottom line LIRIANO MUST BE PUT IN THE ROTATION OR ALL IS LOST…..
Except the Twins have outscored the Yankees, there’s a difference between claiming a team is terrible and giving them too much credit, Rivera is at least 38 years old, Pettitte old and not cheating anymore, Moose old, Ponson fat, and SB don’t mean much.
Bisonaudit - The twins may have outscored the Yankees, but they have outpitched the twins. And have a better overall run differential. This Yankees team is pretty good.
Speaking of Liriano,does he pitch tonight? It will be intersting to see how he fairs after the agent induced goings on of last week.Just keep putting up the zeros Franchise.
“it’s happened before and to others”
It happened 17 out of 20 times to the Twins.
On the other hand, the Angels go into the Stadium and continually whup the Yankees’ butts!
It looks to me that those widely separate results don’t fall under the Bell curve for random occurrences.
The Angels have no fear on the @#$%%$#@ ghosts. The Twins apparently do and I think they pick up on the awe of their coaching staff for all things Yankee.
For those of you who didn’t hear the first two times:
THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SAYING A TEAM IS TERRIBLE AND GIVING THEM TOO MUCH RESPECT!
Home teams generally have the advantage. Assuming that is a given, why augment that advantage, be it physical/mental, by implying that you have to play a perfect, error-free game in order to win. When the first mistake occurs, the natural tendency is “here we go again”. Mr. sane, your post of 11:54 was dead on. Get angry and play with a chip on your shoulder. You can play with these guys at the dome and win. What’s so different.
bisonaudit,
“THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SAYING A TEAM IS TERRIBLE AND GIVING THEM TOO MUCH RESPECT!”
IMO:
Publicly, you can give them their props.
Privately and during self-talk, you should bad-mouth the @#$%%$#@ out of them.
Mr.sane 1:25, AMEN!!
Daniel1066,
I agree.I’m a Blackburn fan,but one thing I think he needs to improve on is his Mound Demeanor.If he looks flustered,and he did last night,it can have an effect on the whole team.”Hear we go again”.Too much pacing around the mound,rubbing his forehead,slowing down the pace of the game when its not going his way.
Sorry Daniel 1966!!Didn’t get the moniker right.
A-Rod Rules, the Twins drool. Forget about the playoffs you pansies. You don’t know how to go for the gold and pick up free agents once you are close. The Twins are one injury away from heading to the bottom of the division where they belong.
Yankeefan,
Congratulations on your recent…..
Never mind!
I see “rube that pretends to be fan of opposing team after a loss” is backkkkkkkkkkk………
Mr. Dover, Fear not, there are some on these blogs who think 1066 is more apropos. When Ron Gardenhire took over in 2002, the Yankees were still “top-notch” and cleaned our clock regularly. It has gotten better as they have aged a bit and we got older and better. Now, we are youthful once again. Perhaps Gardy should relate that the last couple years we have been more than competitive. This organization is not one to boast or swagger. Boasting is wrong. A little swagger is not!
If you guys aren’t going to use Liriano, we could trade you Ponson for him.
“Or maybe it’s the silliness about Nick Blackburn being “too strong” after his eight-day layoff…”
I disagree. Blackburn is a rookie, no? And to handle MLB hitting — especially the Yankees — you need constant precision as a pitcher. Problematic pitching with too much rest sounds like a miniscule excuse, but it’s a part of Blackburn’s learning curve he hasn’t quite overcome.
Combine that with the weak plays of Harris and Casilla in that 2nd inning, and all hell breaks loose.
It is good to read most all the thoughts that I have harbored since last nights humilliating showing were echoed by my fellow fans. I think that all the Twins players except Mauer should bow when in the immediate presence of a Yankee player. And Gardenhire did absolutely nothing to prepare this team. He fostered the Yankees are better than you attitude that seems so prevalent with this team. No measured swings no relaxed lets have some fun with it attitude. I kept hoping a player would go to the plate a do an impression of Jeter batting. I have the utmost respect for Jeter as a player but watching him bat, asking for time from the plate umpire every time (I noticed they don’t notice) following the pitch in ALL the way, and being so upset when a strike is called and HE dosen’t agree. Just kills me. It did look like the Twins fans in attedance were having fun. Hopefully tonight is better.
And you can not tell me there is NO room on this roster for Liriano!!!
“…charity has left the keyboard. (For the record, 74 percent of the 3,400-plus people who voted in our “poll” yesterday said Gomez should be batting ninth.)”
I was one of the 74 percent. Now is not the time for Gardy and Smith to rest on their wonderful laurels in this partially developmental year.
Try Span at leadoff. (I’d actually prefer Casilla, but if it ain’t broke….so leave him in the 2 hole.)
Daniel,
When is our next reunion for the class of 1066?
“Or maybe it’s my suspicion that Morneau’s hand was bothering him at the plate last night, despite the reports that he’s fine.”
I have my suspicion as well. When a big gun goes a little lame, all the more reason to have Beltre around.
It’s been a successful year for the Smith/Gardy management team. But, again, enough of that laurels thing.
imo you set a new tone by knocking the first yankee hitter on his rear end!
i also realize that isn’t the twins way.
“Just don’t show me any more Derek Jeter and A-Rod moments.”
Did they show any Maris highlights. I mean, the guy broke Ruth’s record.
Starters need to pitch inside hard like Perkins does. He’s about the only one that does it more than once or twice a game. And yes Liriano needs to come up.
It’s another game tonight. File last night’s under awful games and be done with it. Rassner is being hit at a Livan pace. Hope the bats will wake up and Slowey’s finger holds up. Bad loses will happen once a while (and frankly I’d rather see the Twins lose a game in the manner of last night’s rather than a 0-1 loss after 15 innings.) A loss here and there does not matter than much, especially since the Twins have 7 games remaining against the White Sox and all of them at home & 4 of them coming next week. If the Twins sweep those, getting swept by the Yankees would not matter much…
I wonder why they don’t show highlights of the Yankee choke-a-thon when the Red Sox came back from being down 3 games to none. Now those were classic Yankee Stadium moments!
gobble, I agree. In my 12:02 post, I suggested it be their #2 hitter rather than the first… but either (or both) is OK.
Right, gobble. Ponson went after Young and Span. Turnabout is fair play. I mean, if you want to win…….
the twins really need some help in the bullpen, thats one of their weakest places right now, losing neshek for the year really messed that up, not to sure of bass he seems a little young to be putting in those close games late in the game, why didnt they use crain(not to sold on him either)at least he has some experience in close games
Regarding Casilla’s throw home…all of the infielders gathered around the pitchers mound before the play and strategized. Certainly a bug was planted in Alexi’s ear that if there’s a play at the plate he should go home. It wasn’t a perfect throw, but even with a one-hopper Mauer should have made the catch–he’s an all-star catcher for crying out loud. I think even he would say he should have made the play. Nonetheless, because of the imperfect throw E4 was the proper call. Regarding Gomez, Gardy’s being stubborn, true, but his comments recently seem to be moderating and I have a feeling we’ll be seeing Gomez in the 9 hole before the next series. Wouldn’t be surprised if he gives him a day off first.
PS. Dump Bass and bring in Liriano as the late-inning setup guy. He’s pitched a lot of innings as a starter already considering this is his first year back from TJ…he can switch to starter if one of our current batch goes down, otherwise use him as reliever this year and a starter next year, ala Joba Chamberlain or Johan Santana.
No-no, Average Joe. Casilla’s throw was the equivalent of a wild pitch. Mauer had to leave the plate (slightly) just to block it.
If you are Bill Smith you have to tell Gardenhire to bat Gomez first, otherwise you have to admit you blew it with not taking Ellsbury and Lester for Samtana and taking Mr. 245 and two guys who will never see the mound in the majors. Let’s see, Lamb, Monroe, Everett, yup, Smith is now officially worse than Kevin McHale.
FIRE, I’m not sure I ever said this was a terrible Yankee team. They aren’t a championship team and haven’t been for years. They aren’t worthy of the Twins (or much of anyone) being intimidated.
Their closer WAS perhaps the best ever. Not sure anyone but a Yankee fan would pick him to close out a game over Nathan today… certainly close enough that there’s no discernable advantage to the Yankees.
Their pitching with tons of experience are about 2 years past due for retirement. Not worthy of being feared certainly at this point. Outside of Chamberlain, which of their pitchers would you want on your team right now over their counterpart on the Twins’ staff?
Stolen bases? Six more over the course of almost 4 months? That’s not even worth discussing.
The Yankees are not a terrible team… but they are an aging team no longer worthy of the sort of respect everyone gives them.
And just for the sake of accuracy, I do believe the Twins are still a game better than the Yankees (for at least a few more hours anyway), so they don’t have the same record.
Senile Since ‘61,
For the 90th time, Ellsbury and Lester were never offered together in the same trade package.
And Smith would have to suck for a much longer period of time to be even comparable to McHale.
Mr. sid, The date for the reunion is
Aug. 15 & 16. Sorry for the late notice but we just heard from our classmates who are veterans of the Battle of Hastings. Sorry for the delayed response but the gruel arrived late here at the home.
“Stolen bases? Six more over the course of almost 4 months? That’s not even worth discussing.”
Twins running game has almost disappeared. So it’s worth discussing.
But right, Crikket —- not vis a vis the Yankees.
JimCrikket - Hate defending a Yankee, but Rivera is having an amazing year. Statistically, this is the most dominant he has ever been. Right now, I wouldn’t blame anyone for taking him over nathan to close out a game.
So you’re Randy Wolf of the Padres and you get the call from your GM…
“Randy Ive got good news and bad news… the good news is that we’ve traded you to a team who feels they’re still a contender. The bad news is that team is the Astros and they’re actually a half-game further out of first place in their division than we are in ours.”
What in the world are the Astros thinking?
Yeah, that Mariano Rivera is really showing his age. So what if the Yankees are aging? It does not matter when you can go out and buy and new team whenever you want to.
sid, don’t confuse people around here with facts… it just confuses them.
And along those lines, OK Tony… I’ve only seen a handful of his games and he’s struggled more than once. I’ll take your word. But I still wouldn’t swap the two.
Daniel,
Thanks for the info.
I’ll see you at the reunion in time for the gurney races!
Yankeefan,
“So what if the Yankees are aging? It does not matter when you can go out and buy and new team whenever you want to.”
How long has it been since they bought the “best” team?
Oh!
They can’t.
Last year the Red Sox had that team and they weren’t selling to the Skanks.
SO much to talk about. Here we go:
- Al Leiter on YES broadcast also said the same thing about a sinker ball pitcher being “too strong” i.e. too rested. That’s at least 2 former pitchers (Bert the other one) saying same thing. Someone please tell me why Andy and gang couldn’t get Blackburn to throw, run, jump whatever until he’s ready to drop before he gets out there on the mound????
- Can’t prove it but the sight of Abreu hitting another line drive within 6 feet of him couldn’t have made Blackburn too comfy.
- Isn’t Gardy an ex-Met?? Is that where the inferiority complex comes from? The boys don’t seem nearly as in awe of the Bosox…they play them very well in the Dome and kept it pretty close at Fenway until the blow out game. The Yanks and dirtbag Ponson…that’s another matter. Wouldn’t it be great if the Pohlads would cough up some money and buy the contracts of Ponson and Casey Blake and park them both somewhere…get us at least 6-7 more wins each year LOL!!!!
- How’s about starting a Twins-Yanks “trophy” in Spring Training like they have the Guv’s Cup with the Red Sox? Maybe if the boys have a competition with the Yanks right from Day 1 in FL they’d be more relaxed about playing against the Yanks. Have they already forgotten the game they won at the Dome a couple of years ago where I think it was Justin who got Rivera to blow a save…unthinkable back then, for both the Twins and Rivera. Anyone else willing to throw in the cost of a beer to buy a trophy, let’s call it the Vice President’s Cup in honor of all our MN Presidential candidates?
- Yes, the team needs attitude against the Yanks. The one player with attitude, justified right now or not, is Gomez. You knew I’d get to him sooner or later, right? I luv Go-Go. When my expectations for this team were pretty low, he provided endless excitement and entertainment. Now that they have been in contention for awhile, time to get serious about what’s best for winning. Swapping him and Span in the #1 and #9 holes seems like something that should at least be tried sooner rather than later, just like letting Young know forget about being Cal.
- There have been comments on another Strib blog and here too about AAA for Go-Go. Let’s be serious people. This is the major league, not little league. This is a business, not just a game. Gomez has gotten Twins fans real excited and energized all the way to the concession stands and Pro Shops for his jersey, etc. The little kids luv him. Moreover he doesn’t deserve a demotion. Yes, he’s struggling but is he the first one to go into a slump on this team??? However, time for Gardy to act on what is being portrayed in the TC media as a “softening” of his stance about moving Gomez to the ninth position in the lineup. Everything about the wisdom of that move has already been covered by other bloggers from less pressure to all the math re first batters get more PA’s etc. etc. Agree wholeheartedly. Maybe the Strib poll will give Gardy the final push that he needs, that while still a fan favorite, the fans feel a need to move Go-Go for the time being at least to #9.
- Franchise, how much longer Bill Smith?????? Last night between fighting an urge to just turn off the TV (which I didn’t) and yelling at the TV what would this game be like if Liriano was pitching, however “not completely there yet” he might be, vs. Cy Yuk Sir Sidney, you were not alone Howard at feeling REAL cranky. Gomez and Liriano — 2 Twins WITH attitude.
romer, I did see Gardy’s comments about the lack of SBs being partly due to the fact that when you steal 2nd, the opponent just ends up walking Mauer/Morneau. I guess that’s probably true, but I think it still comes back to Gomez not getting on base. Sure, Casilla shouldn’t steal with M&M coming up, but there’s no reason why Span and Gomez shouldn’t be going a lot more. Of course, that would require them to get on base first.
Gomez batting ninth can steal 2B now, because Mauer and Morneau are now two batters away!
Dang, how many times are people gonna keep bringing up the Ellsbury/Lester thing? Kinda like the Carl is cheap theme. It keeps on coming back. Too bad that the let the facts stand in the way of their arguements.
Good and adequate discussion/posts, JimCrikket and sid about the running game. Thanks.
I hope Bill Smith reads it and passes the word to Gardy.
In other words…..
KEEP IT GOING, TWINS. This is the battle for the WC going on in Yankee Stadium this week. And beyond. We need to solve 3B, Gomez’s spot in the lineup, and relief pitching.
Manship, Bonser, and Buscher for Beltre. (Bring up Mulvey?)
Carl IS cheap.
It makes me wonder about Gomez and his getting caught stealing so much compared to at the beginning of the season. Did the pitchers catch on to him that quick? Something has changed, don’t know what, but something.
Maybe his acceleration isn’t there right now, not able to get to second as fast as before. Maybe a lingering effect of a hammy perhaps? If so, it probably won’t get much better the rest of the year. So many times these players play thru injuries that are never really disclosed, and to the people looking in, it looks like they are having a down year, kinda like Cuddy last year, or even this year. Injuries kill seasons for players, and sometimes, we as fans don’t even really know about them.
Me Too
Another cliche: baseball is all about adjustments. Wouldn’t surprise me if pitchers are mixing it up as to how long they hold the ball before delivering, etc. Gomez is still so young and inexperienced, it probably wouldn’t take too large an adjustment to throw him off. Don’t remember him hurting his hammy. Most of the possible injuries are more in the back and from the shoulders up as he crashes into walls, although a dive might not be great for any part of him.
I also noticed Gomez tends to look in toward the hitter as he’s stealing… almost like you do with a hit and run situation. I don’t care how fast you are, you lose a step when you do that.
