On Liriano: it’s time
Posted on July 22nd, 2008 – 10:40 PMBy Howard
All things being almost equal, I think it’s time to bring up Francisco Liriano and give him a try. Tonight, he pitched seven innings against Toledo — one of the better teams in the International League — and shut down the Hens for seven innings on two hits and two walks over seven innings. That brought his Rochester record to 9-2, 3.13, including one earned run in his last 35 innings.
That’s a 0.26 ERA.
Right now is the time to move one of the young starters to long relief and see what Liriano can do. Having a second lefty in the rotation trumps the current arrangement, and the pitcher who gets demoted (Slowey or Blackburn) needs to see this as a chance for the Twins to make a serious run at the division — in the same way that a trade for a right-handed bat is going to cost the current right-handers some playing time.
Besides, there’s probably going to be a key game or two when the Twins are going to need a spot starter, even if all arms stay healthy. (Think road rainouts and the potential for a doubleheader or two.)
It doesn’t make sense to keep Brian Bass in Minnesota and Liriano in Rochester. At this point, it simply doesn’t.
The best scenario: Monday night at the Metrodome against the White Sox. Liriano takes Slowey’s spot in the rotation for the opener of the big four-game series. The White Sox pretty much chewed through the Twins rotation last month, so let’s give ‘em a different look and see what happens.
other people are here too
162 Responses to "On Liriano: it’s time"
Livan’s veteran presence is strong enough to have an effect from the bullpen…
Completely agree. I originally wanted to see Livan go but I see the benefit of having six quality starters available. If Livan did go and someone get hurts, whos next? Duensing might be in Beijing and I don’t have much faith in anyone else in AAA.
Also, I’m going to go ahead and steal one of your own lines, with one small modification.
More than anything, it was probably the sight of Darrell Rasner shutting down the Twins on a night when he had mediocre stuff.
Amen Howard, Couldnt Agree More.
Another good outing for Liriano. With that ERA and low whip, along with his past record pitching the majors, I don’t know how many other teams would keep him in the minors. Time to bring him up and shake up the pitching staff. Everyone needs to earn their spot…which Liriano appears to be doing.
Howard, do you have any “pull” to get the Strib to put out another survey? If the Gomez one got a vast majority saying “bat 9th” we fans might break a law of statistics and yield a 105% vote for promote Liriano and we wouldn’t even need a vote from his agent!
I’m still in favor of moving Livan to the pen but if Gardy is queasy with that, maybe at least have whichever young ‘un gets moved to the pen ready to jump into long relief at the first sign of distress in a Livan start.
Bass at this point is the logical one to move back to Rochester. If presented in an attractive way he might be OK with that (I honestly don’t even remember if he’s out of options or not but you’d think the FO could package a reassignment in a good light). He’s not the strongest reliever we’ve ever had in the pen but I sympathize with the guy — he has been thrown into the deep end of a very deep pool in a number of games. Some have not gone well but he also did OK in some of those situations.
I love the idea Howard. Nothing would be better than watching Liriano dominate the Sox in his first start. Let’s hope the Twins, Gardy, and Bill Smith have the wisdom most of us do.
Spot on Howard. This is a test of Smith’s declaration that all they want to do is win. If they really want to win, they would find a way to get their best pitcher into the rotation now.
ah yes, joe. we’re a wise bunch indeed.
but it is a pretty nice trump card to have in your minor league system at this point in the season. sounds like fun to me.
Does Goof Boof get a pass? What good does it do to have him throw batting practice during games?
Even though some bloggers trash other team’s announcers I find it interesting to hear views from them, not just the “party line” that is sometimes the stuff from Dick&Bert. On YES tonight Michael Kay was asking Al Leiter whether there was really THAT big a difference between AAA and the majors, as their guy playing LF and batting 9th was flailing away at the plate. He’s currently batting .170 and was something like around .400 at AAA. Leiter made some interesting comments about the quality of AAA pitching vs. pitching at the big league level. So it is a bit amusing to so often see in the blogs people screaming to promote such and such a player who’s hitting over .375 or whatever. Never really can tell until they actually stand at the plate in the majors. But miracles do happen…look at Lexi. I remember thinking that Span looked rather mediocre back in the spring. The second and third times seem to be the charm for those two.
As for Liriano I don’t think he fits into that category Leiter was talking about in AAA since he has already been dominant once upon a time in the bigs and when he does get called up I have confidence that the Cliburns and Andy feel he’s back to big league form.
I’ve been saying that Liriano would come up when there was an injury or a total collapse by one of the current starters.
While I still think that might be what the club has in mind, that just has got to chage. At this point, I really don’t care how it happens, just bring the guy up already.
Maybe a healthy “Franchise” back on the staff would be just the thing to get this team fired up and feeling invincible. Do what you gotta do, but Liriano’s next start should be at the dome against the White Sox.
liriano at the dome against the white sox puts asses in the seats. twins upper management knows the meaning of that.
I’m not sure how they’ll spin it or who’s going to end up where… but Liriano is going to be with the Twins soon. By Monday vs the Sox? Maybe not. But by August 1, he’s in a Twins uniform. By then, Bass, Boof, or another of the existing pitching staff will be traded or DFA’d.
Check this date. Confirm or deny. If the Twins hold off on bringing up Liriano until July 28th AND the Twins make the post-season, Liriano does not get credit for a year toward arbitration.
In other words, the Twins have a strong incentive to hold off on bringing him up until July 28th — less than a week away. If he comes up on the 27th or sooner and the Twins make the playoffs, we lose a year of controlling Liriano.
Say what you will, but I think those are the facts. These are the pains of being a small-market team. We are put in a position where we have to nickel-and-dime (i.e. mishandle) young talent to ensure we maintain as much control of them as we can.
I am actually not placing a value judgment here. What annoys me, though, I must say is that Blyleven and Bremer really appear to be singing off the front-office’s songsheet. I think those guys should be objective voices. They are beginning to lose my enthusiastic support.
Liriano is DEFINITELY coming up to pitch with us the remainder of this season. Will it be before the 28th or not, though, THAT is the question.
I think the Twins will show optimism, signs of greatness, and long-term confidence by bringing him up before the 28th.
T-Mouse, from his hizzouse
I would tell L. Hernandez nice job in the 1st half and then deal him. Nothing personal it’s just Liriano is better. Also it’s time to move Bonser or DFA him and find that 8th inning set up guy. It’s really time for Bill Smith to get busy before we fall out of this race.
As much as it pains me to say it, you are probably right in having to send Slowey down. I love the guy, but he has been the weakest link of this rotation. Or he could move to the bullpen and send Bass down…
I don’t get why people simply brush off the idea of a six-man rotation so quickly. It would solve many things like the innings count of these young pitchers. Theoretically it would also solve the bullpen issue by taking less of a load on them.
People only brush it off because of the “onorthadox-ness” of it.
the 6 man rotation is an awful idea. awful. what is the average length of start for each of the starters? 6 innings? i don’t know the exact answer but i think thats a good guess. would that change with more rest? doubt it. i wouldn’t expect pitch counts to go up with an extra day rest. so all you’ve done is taken one bullpen arm away. twins would never do it.
it is time for Liriano. i’ve been holding out on the idea, but you can’t deny it any more. get him up here. i would move slowey to pen. none of the guys deserve the demotion. but i would say dfa bass and put slowey in the pen.
Agreed. I was thinking of trading Bonser, but Bass is actually a weaker pitcher, so it’s best to cut him loose, put Slowey in the pen and bring up Francisco. He has nothing else to prove in the minors, and the Twins really, really need a strong starter for the rest of the season.
Sounds good to me. Start Liriano on Monday. Cut Bass or Boof. And send Livan to the bullpen.
Check this date. Confirm or deny. If the Twins hold off on bringing up Liriano until July 28th AND the Twins make the post-season, Liriano does not get credit for a year toward arbitration.
Post-season is irrelevant where service time is concerned. As of right now, it is highly unlikely that Liriano would obtain “super-2″ status and be eligible for arbitration after this season.
Well, considering that the team is now on a losing streak, it would appear that Smith can save face by bringing up Liriano now. After the stunt that his agent pulled, I had doubted that it would happen this quick. Need to get Frankie up before his next start. No reason to put it off any longer. Obviously this bullpen is THE issue on this team right now, not the starters, but the bullpen would get a good shot in the arm with a good arm moving to the bullpen, whether it be Livan or Perkins(I doubt it would be Perkins) or Blackburn. Seems to me that Slowey is going to stay in the rotation no matter what, same way as Baker.
To me, a bat doesn’t do much good at this point if the Twins can’t keep the bullpen from melting down like has happened against the Whities awhile back, the BoSox and now the Yanks.
These are exactly the teams we need to be beating, and we are getting a beat-down instead.
Comeon Smith, you can bring Liriano up now and save face at the same time. Obviously, something needs to be done NOW.
PROPOSED SIX-MAN ROTATION SCHEDULE
DAY1 STARTING PITCHER IN ROTATION
DAY2 REST
DAY3 PEN DUTY REQUIRED -or- NOT REQUIRED
DAY4 REST -or- SIDE SESSION
DAY5 SIDE SESSION -or 2nd SIDE SESSION
DAY6 REST
DAY7 STARTING PITCHER IN ROTATION
you are right howard, but management doesn’t seem to get it.
you can’t win when you play scare.
BRING UP THE KID
Liriano presently has two years and 45 days of service time. If he were to be brought up today, he’d gain another 68 days this season. My Minnesota math tells me that’s 113 days, or about two-to-three weeks shy of gaining Super 2 status, thus no arbitration this winter (the typical Super-2 qualifier has at least 128 days of service in his third year). His service time is no longer a concern.
And, Super-2 status simply means a player is eligible for arbitration four times; it does not make him eligible for free agency a year early. He still needs six full years of major league service time to qualify for free agency.
T-Mouse: Whether Liriano acheives Super-2 status this year is not as definite as you claim. There are two milestones to determine Super-2 status: The player needs to have at least 86 days of service time beyond his second year (which does not include post season time), and he must be in the top 17% of his class, which varies from year to year depending on the his class of Super-2 candidates.
Regardless of how his class fills out by service time, if the Twins brought him up today, he would have two years plus 80 days of service time (by my Minnesota math). So if they brought him up right now, he could not make that 86-day milestone if he stays on the club ’till the end of the year. So he cannot be a Super-2 at this point.
I suspect that his agent is asking the union to investigate because the only way he could become a Super-2 is if the union won a grievance and added service time to his record.
Twins will bring Liriano up at some point this year. BUT I don’t think they make a move on a “big bat” from the right side. The team lacks experience and doesn’t have a chance to take the WS this year. (I know not a popular statement!) But it’s only my opinion after watching pretty much every game this year. And seeing the struggles on the Road against teams like the Yanks, Red Sox, and White Sox. The Twins would have to step it up a few notches to get home field advantage in the playoffs no matter who they play. I just don’t see them attaining that this year. I’ll still watch and hope like everyone else though. They have a good young team with LOTS of potential!!
Forget about the service time. The issue is the innings pitched. Liriano’s at about 130 IP for the season right now, his third-highest total ever. He’s coming off of a (successful, it seems) TJ surgery. You really want that kid to come up and throw 50 more intense IP in a pennant race in his first season back from TJ?
Remember, he’s still younger than everyone on the MLB staff but Slowey. This is a long-term asset. I’m not saying he shouldn’t have a role on the team, but I think his IP is or should be a part of this discussion.
Blockbuster trade?
We have an overabundance of starting pitching. Let’s trade some of that to compensate for our needs … a power hitting right handed bat and a setup man.
Colorado is rumored to be open to trades for Garrett Atkins at 3b and Brian Fuentes their left handed closer. What would it take to get those two packaged together? A lot, I am sure, but they desperately need starting pitching … our deepest asset.
Their 3rd, 4th, and 5th starters are atrocious with ERAs over 6.00. Perhaps a combination of one of our young starters (Blackburn, a sinker baller in Coors field), Bonser, AAA and Olympian Brian Duensing, and other prospects might do the trick.
The GM of the Arizona Yankees DEMANDS the call-up of Liriano. I mean we activated him in April for crying out loud. We cant place him on the DL. We can’t just drop him. It’s time to call up Liriano so that the AZY can win the OEF in 2008!
I liked Smith before. But I dont like him now, our middle relief is terrible, we need to move Blackburn to the bullpen and promotoe Lariano so we can make a playoff run! Our starting pitching is good yes, but we need a dominant pitcher and I only see Lariano filling that role!
I said the same thing Monday, before we found out that our starting 5 wasn’t the Braves pitching staff of the 90s.
Nice work, Howard.
Let’s hope it doesn’t take another Congressional investigation and evidentiary hearing before the move is made.
“Forget about the service time. The issue is the innings pitched.”
Minor league innings count just as much as major league innings. They aren’t saving his arm by having him dominate in AAA.
Twins are a competitive but not a true contender. Yanks have punched a Livan -sized hole in that facade.. I don’t see a reason to make a trade unless it is for this year and the future - Twin’s need another young power reliever regardless next year and beyond and a real 3rd baseman
Obie
My thoughts exactly. The twins have too many young quality SP’s. I do not care what the FO says, you always have room for an ACE especially if you currently dont have one and if he is making less than what 2 million? Sure the Twins have lots of good 3/4 type starters, (except Baker who I say is a strong #2) so the Twins need to take the M’s up on their offer and trade one of their four young pitchers whose name is not Baker, add a couple prospects and get Beltre.
Possible Trade idea??
M’s-Beltre
Twins- Slowly,Morales,another prospect
I know this is beating a dead horse, but I do not think this is too steep of a price for the Twins not to do it both financially, and in how much they have to give. Just think of how much fun Gardy could have with a lineup with another right handed bat.
1.Span R
2.Mauer L
3.Young R
4.Morneau L
5.Beltre R
6.Kubel L
7.Casilla S
8.Punto S
9.Gomez L
Beltre is essential to making the Twins go far into the post season. Liriano is essential to making the Twins go far into the post season. Lets kill two birds with one stone here.
SP Rotation
1.Liriano
2.Baker
3.Blackburn
4.Perkins
5.Livan
If the Twins are smart enough to pull the trigger on that trade there is just one more trade the Twins need to make. The Twins need that 8th inning set up guy. I say try to after Hudson Street. Billy Beane is always willing to make a trade, and Street and Nathan would arguably make the best 8/9 duo in baseball.
Possible Trade?
A’s- Street
Twins- Boof, Duensing, another top/mid prospect
Boof is not total garbage, given another chance as a SP with a new team could possibly be all that he needs. I see him as similar to Gallager, the pitcher the A’s recently pickedup. Currently in the bullpen with a high ERA, but defiantly underachieving. Sound like Boof? Add 2 good prospects and Billy would defiantly consider it.
New Bullpen
Closer-Nathan
Setup-Guerrier
7th-Guerier,Crain (this would put those two good pitchers in their more relaxed natural role.
If those to trades were made that would make the Twins the favorites to win the central, and a possible WS contender.
Then all the Twins would need to do is cut Lamb and keep Span. Busher and Lamb play the same role,3B/1B bench player, who do you think is the better player?
Bench:
Redmond-great backup catcher
Monroe-quality power pinch hitter
Span-great backup OF capable of playing all positions.
Harris- goood IF backup
Busher- good 3B/1B backup.
Now that is a great bench. And all these moves would make this team so much better and help him go far into the post season.
Liriano:
if we won’t bring him up trade him.
go to Seattle and say, we will give you
Liriano for Beltre, their best reliver other than Putz and they have to pay the bulk of Beltre’s salary, probably also ask for a minor league B level starter to replace Liriano’s spot
“Spot on Howard. This is a test of Smith’s declaration that all they want to do is win. If they really want to win, they would find a way to get their best pitcher into the rotation now.”
Couldn’t have said it better myself. But I will try:
Dear Bill Smith,
Then why the #%&$ is Brian Bass on your big league club when you already have Boof for mop-up in the pen?
How did you get a GM job thinking that W’s are a better indication of a pitcher’s skill than ERA, WHIP, K/9, BAA, et al?
Baffling.
I expect to see Liriano by Monday, Bill.
Good day, sir,
DIGGITY DAZ
as i said yesterday the twins are pretenders at this point. they may be good enought to win the division but not a playoff series. jason will be walked 3 times a game until a bat is behind him that has some scare effect. kubal and monroe don’t scare anybody. buscher is a butcher at third and a real 3b is essential.
we have gone through this before, when will these pitchers knock somebody on their rear ends? they’re standing on the plate and nobody even throws inside. maybe perkins will today and he’ll probably be warned the first time. KNOCK SOMEBODY DOWN!!!!!
i’m not even going to get started on franchise.
The Twins should make these trades this week, call up Liriano today, give Liriano a six day rest and have him pitch the opening game against the white Sox in the Metrodome. Sounds good huh
Maybe Smith is trying to swing a trade for Boof. It would make sense to give him a chance to resurrect his career elsewhere since Gardy can’t use him in any game that isn’t already a blowout.
I just do not get why people are not up for trading Slowly and prospect to the M;s for Beltre. I know ive said this like 100 times, but wouldn’t a trade like that make the lineup much better and the offense much better? Beltre is already a good hitter, but as I have said before he is a GREAT hitter outside of Safeco. Am i wrong here, it just makes too much sense to me.
I think a 6 person rotation would be great…i mean why not most of these pitches have never picthed 200 innings so they may burn out give them an extra day and also you can use one of the 6 person rotation in long relief who ever is next pitch if the starting pitcher gets hurt or just has a rough outting. Then just send out whoever is the next starter on the 5th day. It works out.
What I would like to know is where his velocity is at?? Triple A and the Bigs are 2 different games. An 88 mph heater isn’t so effective and hard to sneak by MLB hitters. Hopefully he can get back to the 95 mph range someday…
I think all of us have gotten to caught up in the success of the overachieving Twins this year. I’m not against bringing up Liriano but i don’t think they should mess with Slowey or Blackburn by putting them in the bullpen these guys still have an upside but Livan doesn’t
history tells us that the twins front office doesn’t make real trades in july. they may bring in somebody on the cheap (phil neven), even stewart for kielty was cheap, but nobody that will actually help. i think santana said last yr we’re always playing for the future. any trade that would really help would be a huge surprise, imo.
Sane,
I like your idea. Liriano and everyone else except Livan and Baker probably will hit a wall about 175 innings… we need to ration out those innings and a 6 man rotation may be the answer. i’d hate to overuse someone this year and they hurt their shoulder or elbow.
When I saw that line last night, and considered how we have looked against the Yankees (glad I didn’t shell out $$ for this trip), I changed my mind. Bring up The Franchise, move Slowey or Blackburn to the pen, and then explore that Beltre trade again b/c we obviously have more than enough good, young arms. We can win the division this year, and these moves might put us over the top… seems like I think this every year…
I hear ya Dougie,
i was considering going to today’s game but we do so poor there i am glad i passed. Hope we can win today however.
Sorbum
His velocity is topping at 97 and constancy between 93-95, also with the improved velocity his has much better control and complete endurance. Bring him up make the trades
BC…there is an easy answer to all of this:
You demote Blackburn, Slowey, or Perkins to AAA. It’s not rocket science…you wouldn’t be “messing them up”. They spend 5 weeks in Rochester and return to Minnesota in September.
Blackburn and Perkins weren’t supposed to be in our rotation anyway.
The one thing you don’t do is leave your most talented pitcher in the organization at AAA.
blckburn 120 ip, baker 91, slowey 88 and perkins 84. even if these guys pitch 7 innings in all their possible starts (12) none of them will go over 200 innings. blckburn could come close and the other guys will be around 150. perkins may have some aaa innings but both baker and slowey spent time on the dl. these guys will not be overworked by seasons end.
imo the only thing that makes sense is waive bass, livan to long relief and spot start, liriano in the rotation. best thing for today, tomorrow and the future. i’d start liriano sunday away from the home crowd.
Liriano needs to pitch opening game against the white sox coming up in 5 days.
Jason that’s not a bad idea either because they need to be groomed as potential starters and putting them in the bullpen will not help.
It’s clear Punto wasn’t ready yet after his injury. AKA it’s clear Gardy once again mismanaged this team of young and great talent. 0 for 4, 2 awful looking K’s, a GIDP, and a throwing error. Wow. Are the Saints looking for an infielder?
AJ,
will add one more, there was a ball that got through the infield that Arod hit when the score was 3-2. Supposed great Defense Punto should have gotten that. It looked like he pulled up when Buscher went for it.
Give Punto a couple of games to get re-acclimated to playing regularly. The last time he was out, it took him a couple of brutal games to get back into the groove. If he’s still playing like this by the weekend, give the job back to Harris.
Livan is not a bullpen guy, when he doesn’t have his stuff (which can be often) he gets smoked. I don’t think we can put him in the pen. Liriano needs to come up. If we get swept by the Yanks today I don’t see how we can’t…and if we wait until after the 28th, then we know it was for money issues and we may have a disgruntled pitcher.
it’s ok when punto looks bad because he gets after it, battles and works his tail off. they were just winning with harris at short which is a minor detail because nicky is gardy’s little buddy and has to play.
i repeat perkins knock somebody on their rear ends today!!!!
I just do not get why people are not up for trading Slowly and prospect to the M;s for Beltre.
Are you sure it’s Slowey the Mariners want? It’s the guy Twins fans WANT to give up, but that’s not what determines who gets traded.
I would wager their eye is more on Blackburn or Perkins…as I’d imagine the Twins would laugh them off the phone if they suggested Baker.
This isn’t rocket science.
Liriano right now is better than anyone in the rotation save maybe Baker.
Blackburn and Slowey are never going to win big games against good teams. They are what they are, 5th starters or long relievers.
I would cut Bonser and move Blackburn into the pen (he’s pitched relief before).
You don’t need to send anyone to Rochester as long as Bonser is on the team.
I know people are quick to jump on Livan but I look at him like Radke. You want a guy in big games that’s been through the wars. I know he’s been up and down but look at the results.
Teams Livan has wins against:
Angels, Tigers, White Sox, Red Sox, Arizona, Cleveland, Texas, Washington, and KC (x2)
Other than the nationals and Royals (although those are division games) he’s beat the top teams.
One thing that is irritating me though is people saying “we need to think about the twins future, we cant trade slowly,”
Well assuming that Slowly is the young SP that the M’s want, dont we have a SP in AAA with a 3.5 ERA in his first year who has exactly the same as Slowly? Thats right Mulvey, from everything that I have read, is the same pitcher as Slowly. Great control without powerful stuff. The Twins also Duensing nearly ready as well. The twins are fine in the pitching department for a while now, we can afford to lose Slowly.
Is this a bad SP rotation for next year without Slowly?
1.Liriano
2.Baker
3.Blackburn
4.Perkins
5.Mulvey
You also Duensing ready if needed, and Robertson and Guerra in the year following or two years following. The Twins have a fine crop of young SP currently in the majors and their affiliates.
I’m surprised it took this long to start ripping on Mr. Web Gem for the loss last night. Maybe they should move him to the bullpen and put Livan at third.
Also, there seems to be a perception that Punto has contributed and is apart of the resurgence of the Twins, mainly brought on by the Twins announcers. In fact, this is incorrect. When Punto went on the DL, Casilla was called up, Harris moved to shortstop, and the Twins offense surged. When Punto came back, he hit well, yes he did, but once Gardy made the decision to start Punto over Harris at shortstop against left-handed pitching, the Twins hit a wall. This decision was made at the beginning of the Red Sox series. The Twins got swept. Punto then got injured, and again the Twins offense surged against the Rangers for the first 2 games. Now I am not a Punto hater, I just want the facts to be known that the Twins surge was Casilla at second, Harris at shortstop and NOT Punto ala 2006. The facts are the facts. They cannot be disputed. Go Twins.
T
Yea of course I dont know that Slowly is the pitcher the M’s want, but IF Slowly was an acceptable pitcher for them along with adding a couple prospects would you make the deal? I would also do it if it was blackburn or perkins, although it would be a harder decision and i would offer lesser prospects if i was MR. Billy.
they were just winning with harris at short which is a minor detail
They lost the last two games even with Harris at short. The Harris/Punto debate is not this team’s problem right now.
T
one last thing, I agree that Baker is COMPLETELY untouchable. He unlike Slowly/Perkins/and Slowly has the obvious #2 type potential. Not saying the 3 previous pitchers cant be #2 pitchers someday, Im just saying Baker’s potential is more obvious, and is almost there already.
but IF Slowly was an acceptable pitcher for them along with adding a couple prospects would you make the deal?
IF that were the case I’d be more inclined to accept the trade. As I imagine the Twins would be.
The fact the trade hasn’t happened yet is the reason I believe Slowey was not the pitcher they had in mind.
T
Would you do it if it was Blackburn or Perkins, along with two mid level prospects?
Punto then got injured, and again the Twins offense surged against the Rangers for the first 2 games
Then lost the next two without Punto.
And if you’re blaming the Boston sweep on Punto, you need to go back and look at the boxscores again. With the exception of the first game, pitching lost the Boston series.
Would you do it if it was Blackburn or Perkins, along with two mid level prospects?
No.
Hardly an original thought here, but I am just venting.
How can we getknocked around like we have the last couple of nights and NOT bring Liriano up?
I personally would like to unload one of the othre pitchers for Beltre, but even if we dont do that, as I am sure cheap carl will not do, lets get Francisco up here ASAP
Come on, blackie is just an average ground ball pitcher. Perkins though… ehhh tough call but i would do it. if the Twins dont call up liriano by the end of this week i do not know what i am going to do with myself.
T your right but we all know that Punto is everyone’s favorite scapegoat. I honestly don’t think that adding someone like Beltre is going to be the key that catapults the Twins into WS contention.
I see the Twins has more of a contender next year, HOWEVER, I do think there is at least a possibility that they have at least a chance this year IF they call up Liriano and acquire Beltre. Having a solid bat behind Jason would change everything for the offense, as would having a potential ace pitcher.
No way should they consider trading Baker.
Every game Liriano starts in the minors is another game the Twins will fall behind the Sox. Bass proved again last night he is not the answer, and the pen did nothing yesterday to prove they don’t need the assistance. I still think Blackburn deserves the benefit of the doubt, and Slowey has been great, but having the 6th pitcher option will be beneficial if Liriano needs more rest, or Blackburn struggles in the strech.
He’s already proven the mental toughness to dominate in the bigs - what’s the delay? Bring him up!!
Tyler, Gomez is a righty. What the Twins really need to do is hit bad pitching and pitchers and turn these 8 to 2 games into 9 to 8 ballgames.
I’ve come to the conclusion that if we were to give up any pitcher, it would be Blackburn. He is a better version of Silva. He gives up a lot of hits and gets out of innings, but the good teams (playoff teams) take advantage of that. I think he will be a good back end of the rotation guy, but right now we have a few of those.
With that said, I would not give up Baker, Perkins, or Slowey. Each one has potential. Baker will be a #2 behind Liriano. Slowey is a control specialist that will only get better as he throws more innings. Perkins also has good control, but gives up a few more homers than I would like.
Blackburn isn’t an average ground ball type pitcher. He’s a rookie man, if you can’t see the potential in him you’re not watching.
All of the young starters have some nice upside to them actually.
They need to adjust to what teams are doing to them now that there is a decent amount of video for the hitters to look at and find what they like to throw and when.
If the Twins trade any of them I bet it’s not for a going to be 30 3b.
Blackburn would not be damaged by a trip to the bullpen. He’s logged a lot of innings this year and he’s just learning. He can be an excellent long man and spot starter ’till the end of the year and still be in a good position to start all year next year. Liriano should be ahead of him anyway, since his making the team was contingent on Liriano not being ready.
Liriano though has pitched 127 2/3 innings. 12 games at 7 innings per would be 84 more innings. this coming off rehab. not sure i like that either. driving him hard in a pennant race - is that good for the long term? maybe it makes no big difference.
I agree to bring him up, he has proved he is ready. I don’t think we should trade any of our young pitchers in the lineup now (maybe Boof if we could get some power in return, but his value doesn’t command much now). I also think that two tough outings in the Bronx in July shouldn’t cause management to stir the glass. Bring him up because he deserves it, not because of a bad Slowey and Blackburn performance.
Perkins being lefthanded puts him on the untouchable list with Baker, imo. I’d like to have both Perkins and Liriano in the rotation for the next few years.
I’m not especially keen on giving up Slowey or Blackburn for a year and a half of Beltre, either… but I wouldn’t jump off a bridge if that kind of deal was made.
danimals that’s an excellent point.
LDD, I agree… it’s pretty entertaining to see how quickly the comments turn negative around here. Yeah, some are negative no matter what, but a couple of bad games does seem to get people lathered up.
Liriano is coming up. I do think service time has an indirect influence on “when”. Ironically, his agent might have slowed the promotion by requesting the investigation by the union. Now the Twins have to make sure they don’t bring him up TOO soon after the “super-2″ date or it will be seen as evidence that that’s what their reason for leaving him in Rochester was.
imo blackburn wasn’t bad last night he pitched well against a good hitting team into the 6th and made a bad pitch for a 2 run homer. crain is the one who pitched bad.
It was Slowey who pitched last night but your right he did pitch well up until then.
BC,
gobble is correct, however.
Blackburn was NOT bad LAST NIGHT.
couldn’t agree with you more, Howard. A half a season in the bullpen won’t stunt the development of any of these young guys. Keep Baker and Livan in the rotation (the argument has always been he provides that ‘veteran’ presence)and move Perkins/Slowey/Blackburn to a 7th inning set-up guy, while Bass hits the showers. Perkins is coming off an injury last year too, so maybe it’s not a bad idea to limit his innings. There is NO reason to let Liriano keep dominating AAA like he has been. Wasn’t that the argument against sending Slowey back down again when he was struggling??
KEEP: Baker, Blackburn, Perkins & Livan. Livan’s experience will be huge if we make the playoffs. We can live with an above .500 record. CALL UP: Liriano and send down Bass. Move Slowey or Perkins to the pen. TRADE: Buscher and whatever (cash, pick or prospect) for Beltre… = Deep playoff run or W.S.
Blackburn might fit in well in the bullpen for the short term/till next season.
Liriano needs to come up and I agree with Howard about Bass, or one of the two lefties for that matter. Is Breslow really all that crucial to the situation?
We can’t ship Livan right now, 10 wins and vetran presence are far too important even if he stinks it up sometimes. He’ll likely be a 12 million a year guy next off season and be gone anyway, freeing up room for Blackburn back in the rotation next year.
Liriano to the rotation, Blackburn to the pen probably improves both ends of the pitching staff without trading anyone.
I think that Liriano will be pitching a week from today for the Twins with Perkins going to the pen. Perkins is a better reliever than a starter (check his WHIP when he relieves vs. when he starts.)
Bass has to go.
I agree with most of your post, Howard (exciting, I know). I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that it makes no sense to have Liriano in Rochester and Bass in our pen. It’s pretty ridiculous actually. However, I’d like to see Livan moved into long relief with the occasional spot start. He’ll still be able to help our young guys and the fact is, he’s our worst starting pitcher. He could still hit his innings bonus and save some of the young guy’s arms by filling in 3-4 times a month. I also agree that Liriano should start on Monday. I’m flying in from Seattle for the White Sox series and I would be freaking ecstatic if I got to watch Frankie pitch.
Unfortunately, I’m not sure if enough time will have elapsed between Genske’s demand and than to make it seem like it was the FO and Gardy’s idea that he’s called up and that they’re not caving in to the agent.
When I suggested on the board two days ago that Blackburn be moved to the pen and Liriano be called up to take his place I was jumped on and called a moron. Now it looks like every one agrees with me. Apologies, please?
Not everyone agrees for you. To me, it seems obvious that the choice for abullpen demotion should be the worst starting pitcher, Hernandez.
Nerp
“Livan’s experience will be huge if we make the playoffs.”
So will his WHIP and ERA.
Why for the love of all that is good would the Twins trade off front line starters for Beltre? I realize he’s an upgrade, but have you guys looked at Seattle’s asking price? Not to mention that, but everyone down on Slowey, Blackburn, and Perkins needs to be a bit patient. These guys are young and learning, and have quite the upside. A month ago, ESPN was saying Slowey was one of the most dominating pitchers in the bigs. He’s going to learn, but trading him after a few bad starts is a horrible idea, not to mention that it opens up a hole next year in the rortation when Livan leaves (not that Livan is solid… he’s by far the worst starter on the team).
Liriano needs to come up, as I agree his innings are being wasted in AAA… DFA Bass and get him here.
Espn said Slowey was one of the most dominating pitchers in the bigs? I’ve seen hyperbole on Espn before but wow.
I didn’t care for Liriano (or his agents whining) but I do think it’s time for Franchise to come up to the bigs again.
I’d say he should replace either Slowey or Blackburn. Perkins has value as a lefty, Livan as a veteran, and Baker has been the Twins overall best starter. Send Bass down and put Blackburn in the pen to work on that sinker.
I doubt Blackburn will be put in the pen. If anyone gets put in the pen it’s probably Liriano to start with and a spot start here and there for him. He’ll have to force the teams hand to make him a rotation guy this year.
Slowey isn’t one of the most dominating pitchers in the bigs, but he’ll be very good in his career! So will Blackburn!
Livan would be a guy I’d rather see gone than one of the young arms at this point. BUT Livan has helped out the young guys and has been given credit for doing so.
I wouldn’t get my hopes up for any trades if I were you. Twins are hoping Cuddy can get healthy soon
Buck Showalter said Slowey has the potential to win more games than Walter Johnson. And I just happen to agree with him.
As to why someone would be called a moron one day and then everyone would agree with that person a few days later about something — and rudely neglect to apologize: I submit that it could have been that those people who regarded the person as such regarded him/her as such for reasons other than the one he/she is presently considering.
I don’t know this to be the case, just thought I’d suggest a possible reason for the lack of apologies so that everyone can get closer to some closure.
The Eastern Sports Promotional Network will say anything to hype the Yankees. If the Yankees pound “one of the most dominating pitchers in the bigs,” it makes them look better.
“When I suggested on the board two days ago that Blackburn be moved to the pen and Liriano be called up to take his place I was jumped on and called a moron. Now it looks like every one agrees with me.”
Thats because NOW, we are ALL morons!
Mr. sid, Very humorous! Thanks.
Looking into my crystal ball I see this article in the twins future:
Gardy to Mauer: Stay Patient
The Minnesota Twins have decided to extend Joe Mauer’s rehab stint for is strained Oblique injury in AA New Britain. The main reason appears to be the inspired play of former backup Mike Redmond, who is hitting .312 and calling quality games behind the plate in Mauer’s stead. “We’d really like to find a way to Joe back up here” said Twins manager Ron Gardenhire. “It’s just that with Red doing what he’s doing and Chorzy (backup catcher Chorzord Belork) doing everything we’re asking of him we’re in a tough situation. We just need Joe to keep plugging away down there. It’s tough, but it’s a nice problem to have.”
Other than the obvious contractual issues that would make the above scenario impossible, I struggle to see the difference.
Jerry,
I am trying to find a hole in your analogy………..but I can’t!
OH HO! Another DP Ball off the bat of LNP! What’s he got like 6 this series so far?
Alright, if Espn is mentioning Kevin Slowey and Walter Johnson in the same sentence, I would love to see a link to that reference.
It is not making any sense not to bring that kid up
Do it now.
No timely hitting/Punto DP balls + Starters can’t pitch and bullpen blows it when they do + your infielders forget how many outs there are in the inning = you are definitely going to lose in Yankee Stadium
Do it now. To wait like another person sad will upset his pride
ah…..walter johnson won 417 games with a career era of 2.17. I was jokin’.
Arite, well I was just checking b/c I was getting ready to never read anything on espn again for a second there. Dude, I’ve read some ridiculousness on this blog before, the sarcasm doens’t always translate too well.
I swear to god the twins could go into Yankee Stadium after they tear it down next year and face Mussina when he is 77 years old and they would STILL lose like 14-2.
fair enough
“Eastern Sports Promotional Network”
….LOL!! true , …true..
Eastern Seaboard Promotional Network
Hell. H e double hockey sticks. Now I have a new version of hell. Watching the Twins play the Chankees. I actucally am looking forward to losing my free MLB extra innings preview. It completly ruins my day or night. My wife would kill me. B R U T A L. Like a minor league club. I know we are young but c-mon. Vavre or varve did absolutely nothing to prepare the Twins hitters for what they would see. This game today is just as m-fing brutal to watch. Alexi killing a dp. Punto throwing balls all over the place. The ump calling anything close because the catcher moves his glove back to the plate. Gardenhire is fing lame when it comes to NY or any big game for that matter. He totaly freezes his team. Stupid errors stupid pitches stupid players. And this management thinks taht we nees Brian Bass over Liriano. That just tops off this horrible viewing experience. Take my t.v away, please. Hey Justin just hit the ball out of the infield for the first time this series. He steps away from the plate and then can’t handle the outside pitch. Delmon yankes his head when he swings and THEN looks back, after it’s in the glove. B R U T A L. Let’s just give LIRIANO his release because we sure don’t need him. Jeter just purposely missed the ball at second because he felt sorry for our side. He actually felt so bad ruining his double he let the ball go through to the third baseman. NICE. Mussina makes mistakes and we flail at the ball. The ump is brutal. An OVER 200 million dollar payroll, and that’s before they add the top 2 free agents for next year. Man I friggin hate the chankees. There scouting department doesn’t even do the work. They just pay coaches to alert them to talent. Did I mention this is a new version of HELL.
Get him up here, the young guys this week are proving that they cannot pitch when the stars, or stripes actually are in their eyes. Perhaps we should’ve tried for CC Sabathia as he can both pitch AND bat, as against the big boys seems like we need both!
Well…. Rivera loves giving up runs in non-save situations this year. I’m not holding my breath though… (actually I probably could this game should last about another 20 seconds or so)
Oh the tying runner can be ON DECK? so it IS a save situation? Well great.
I DID hold my breath! I could have held it longer the Twins finished losing that one so quick…
Stop screwing up my fantasy team. I have a bobblehead trophy to win. Call up Liriano for the AZY!
Thank God Mariano plays for the AZY!
Loving those save points.
Oh wait…oh yeah, YANKEE BASEBALL!
SWEEP SWEEP SWEEP!
You ain’t getting WC…focus on the Sox.
NO CHANGES!
Leave Liriano at AAA!
No trades for Beltre, Atkins, etc.!
Hold on to Bass!
We don’t want to mess with our team chemistry!
We want to maintain a testosterone-free clubhouse!
Howard, I’m not a Livan fan. (The guys really does suck against AL teams, and that’s why they set it up so he can miss as many top teams as possible.) But the way Slowey has pitched agains the AL since interleague…your theory is golden. But Liriano might be the best lefty in all of baseball. There’s no way he sits in AAA while Boof and Bass and every other deadbeat gets a roster spot at this level.
It’s time the Twins grow some balls and call him up.
freaking Quentin
And, people, forget Beltre! He’s an overpriced underachiever. Why else would a last place team want to unload him.
No way you waste a single prospect on a guy that had one great year way back when.
Let’s call up Liriano and offer to pay him the extra $3m he would make in arbitration.
I would rather invest $3m in a healthy and happy Liriano than have Bill Smith invest it in another Mike Lamb, Adam Everett, Craig Monroe or (God-forbid, resign) Nick Punto.
I’m sure he could find someone on the scrap heap to throw a few mill at. (It appears the Astros have a few infield FAs - Ty Wigginton and Mark Loretta - that could draw interest.)
You’ve gotta love it. Liriano’s last five starts:
5-0 with a 0.26 ERA in 35 innings pitched. In those five starts, he walked five, surrendered 19 hits (about what Livan gives up per start!), and struck out 42!!
Not to mention, he’s won nine in a row and run his unbeaten streak to 13! How long is that streak? He hasn’t lost since early May!
Yeah, and I can see why Billy and Fat Boy want to leave him in Triple A.
the botom line is that liriano is ready and its doing nothing just letting him pitch shut-out after shut-out.
sending him to the minors was just so if he got roughed up it wouldnt do anything to his major league record and it wouldnt mess up are record.
the bottom line it we need to trade nick blackburn and a young prospect like
brian bushcer and we get a power third baseman like beltre thats contract goes through 2010.
that opens up a spot in the rotation for liriano and if a starter gets injured we bring up dunsing
I fully agree that Liriano should be brought up immeidately. And, once again, what is Punto doing on the mound giving advise to the pitcher every chance he get. He should but out because he is not good enough at anything, especially pitching, to be giving advise to others. Punto is a bum and should not be on the major league roster for the Twins. He could not make the roster on any other major league teams. His untimely fielding erros and strike outs are becoming tiresome. But Gardenhire likes Punto even though it puts a cramp on the team’s ability to win games.
Lala - On Beltre-> They don’t ‘really’ want to unload him, thats why the asking price is so high. He’s the only guy capable of producing some power-oriented offense on the whole team, and they’re one of the worst offenses in MLB already.
And ‘one good year way back when?’ your view on that season is off, because the fact is, besides that one season, and its huge numbers, Beltre has been one of the most consistent players in all of MLB since 2002, averaging 90 RBI’s and 23 HRs per season. With lows of 19 HRs(2005) and 75 RBI(2002).
He’d help the team is my point, because who else do you see putting up those numbers at 3rd?
Hey Carl Pohlad and Bill Smith: The only Twins game (ashamed of this) I have been too this season was Liriano’s first start for the Twins against Cleveland and Cliff Lee in April. Brutal game by the way, Twins only managed 2 hits, and they were both infield hits. The next Twins game I go to will be Liriano’s first start at the ‘Dome after being recalled. Point is, You want to sell some more tickets AND GIVE YOUR TEAM A BETTER CHANCE TO MAKE THE PLAYOFFS?(cause that would be such a HORRIBLE side effect…)
CALL UP LIRIANO!!!
I think Gardenhire keeps Punto on the field as much as he can is because the other teams like to see him in the lineup. It gives them a definite advantage.
Punto will be in the pitching rotation before Gardenhire brings up Liriano. He is Gardy’s buddy boy.
Please give Gardenhire a break. Can’t you tell he is mentally challenged by all the things he has to do everyday as the manager of the Twins, like make out the lineup card. The Twins organization should be complimented for hiring the disabled.
Steve Liddle tells Gardenhire what to do all the time. Gardenhire usually just sits on the bench and day dreams about when he was a player and when he can get his kid to play for the Twins. Once in a while, the coaches tell Gardenhire to get thrown out of the game in order to help the club. Gardenhire likes that because he goes into the clubhouse and orders pizza and bear for himself. But he refuses to let anyone elses have any of it unles they pay him for it plus a small fee.
Gardenhire is fat boy like pig. He lazy guy too but has good team players for him to boss. He not smart like other team guys but has job to teach team baseball game. He might run fast too, for pig. He teach others to run good, very fast. Team goes fast when ball is hit to other team.
Howard, I asked at the top of this thread if you had “pull” to get the Strib to put up another survey, this time re calling up Liriano. THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU. I have no idea if you did anything at all but I also have no idea who else to thank. Of course I cast my ballot right away. Let’s hope this one gets immediate results also.
Thanks to whoever looked up innings pitched stat for the starting rotation. I’d been lobbying for sending Livan to the pen but with Blackburn’s miles logged todate I can see the logic of moving him to the pen. And I do believe it is also correct that Liriano going to AAA to work on his game was the opening for Blackburn in the first place.
Livan may be old, he may be sometimes really bad, but apparently he ain’t dumb. D&B reported that Gardy asked him which game he wanted to start after the AS break and he picks the one against the Rangers rookie. No way was he going to pick the Yanks. Gotta luv it, what a sly old fox!!! Of course, why the &*%^^ is the manager “asking” in the first place? Isn’t it his job to figure out the lineup and the rotation? I suppose just like with Go-Go, he was afraid of hurting Livan’s confidence.
BTW, I still think because he can be so bad that Livan inadvertently is the catalyst for the Twins going into big run production streaks — for survival reasons. Notice it’s entertaining pitchers like Livan and Ponson who get the run support and aces like Johan get hardly any?
Chiming in kind of late but I love Howards take.Slowey is the obvious choice for bullpen duty.Assuming the Twins keep Livan in the rotation,Slowey has shown the least of the four young starters,yes I know he pitched well twice against Milwaukee,but he has only six quality starts out of 15,and gives the Twins on average, the least amount of innings per start.I think he could be a valuable sixth or seventh inning guy,and as Howard said should look at it as the best way to help the club.Barring a trade there is no need to send him or any of the others (Blackburn,Perkins)to AAA for five weeks.Smith just needs to pull the plug on either Bass or Boof and put them through waivers.If someone takes them great,I’d bet there is at least a 50/50 chance they would clear and could be sent to AAA.Putting Slowey in the pen won’t ruin him for the future,they might even realize thats were he belongs.
As far as a trade for a big bat,don’t hold your breath.The news that there is nothing structurally wrong with Cuddyears finger means there is hope for his return.He will be the “Big” bat the Twins insert into the line up as soon as he’s ready.Since I think realistically the Twins are surprised with their current postion,I can’t see them going after a big money guy in a year they didn’t really think they had a shot.If they didn’t do it i ‘06 why do it in ‘08?Maybe BS will prove me wrong ,but I highly doubt it.
Are there any greybeards on this blog who were alive and a serious Twins fan BT (before TK)? I have a question that bugs me no end and I would like a knowledgeable answer, so please don’t fake an answer if you were not alive or a Twins fan years ago.
The Twins are universally praised in baseballdom and by the media as running a superb fundamentally sound baseball program and organization, e.g. the emphasis and success with good pitching, good defense and good small ball. But why is it the Twins treat pulling the ball with gusto to yank one out like a capital crime punishable by the electric chair or maybe a firing squad?
I know, I know, hitting the ball the other way is a great way for a hitter to get out of a slump. Fine, I’m OK with that. But it seems like there is an organization-wide allergy to power. Players who are drafted either don’t have it to begin with or are soon “cured” of it when they come up through the farm system. Players who arrive in a trade either have or develop the same profile.
I know we have Jason and also the real Jason. But other than that it’s like pulling teeth. And years ago we did have power. What happened??? Someone, please explain. I ask because even if we got someone like a Beltre, is he only going to end up morphing into a real Twin??
Beisbol-a-Go-Go,
The allergy to power you refer to is really the aversion to having to pay said power market value.It’s simply an economic decision.The post World Series (1987-1991)era saw the payrolls of the big market teams sky rocket.The Twins won the’91 series with a pay roll under 35 Million I believe.
The Twins were forced to adopt the old N.L.style of baseball,solid pitching,good defense,move the runners along.They weren’t very successful for much of the ’90’s because they had to draft and develope a philosophy of athletic players who could play this kind of ball.
The Twins turn around came when guys Like Hunter,Jones,Guzman,Rivas,Koskie,and Mientkiewicz all blossomed at the same time.They had come up through the system,learning “the Twins Way”.It helped that guys like Hunter,Jones and Koskie also had a little power,but they all eventually became to expensive.
It will be interesting to see if the Twins philosophy changes with the supposed increased revenue flow from the new Ballpark.Don’t count on it.Take a look at the Twins recent drafts.Looks to me like they are committed to “Minny Ball”.
BEISBOL:
Berry berry good post at 7:39 !
I never considered the Championship Teams as a bunch of power hitters. Nothing like the lineups of the sixties. They had three guys hit over twenty something one year, but that is not a murderer’s row. Beltre had 45 for the Dodgers, now THAT’S a power hitter.
Nobody expects Beltre to achieve that again, but it would be nice to have him.
Upon further review………..
” Gaetti, Hrbek, and Brunansky all slugged over thirty homers in 1987″. Nice, but not overwhelming.
It would seem a little far-fetched to expect three 30 homer guys on this year’s squad.
Pro, thanks for the response.
I expected $$$ would be part of the answer but even that seems like a bad reason for this philosophy. Going into the draft this spring the Twins FO was quoted that they would go after the best players available at the time of the Twins’ draft position. IF that IS true it’s hard to believe they hit HR with pitching signees and at best hit singles or sometimes doubles with most of the position players re power. You would think after all these years they would have drafted and promoted more position players with respectable power. Whether they have power or do not have power, those players would be paid under the salary rules for rookies and those with few years of service. Even if they had somehow scouted and signed the next A-Rod he would not have gone to arbitration let alone FA immediately. And if they did have the next A-Rod and couldn’t afford him, he’d make fabulous trade bait. Of course as soon as I’ve keyed this I do have to add that in more recent years agents like Boras have made the situation a pain in the rump with jacking up demands re signing bonuses. That’s the current situation with is it the Pirates top, top draft pick?? Who just happens to be a power 3B!!
I have often wondered about the Twins scouts even though I believe they get kudos in baseballdom. I’ve also wondered whether the Twins are doing a good enough job with signing Latin players.
Mud,
It’s a bit much when the Twins practically have to throw a party when Justin finally notched a 30 HR season, the first one in years. I just don’t buy it’s just the $$$ problem. We’re either dead last or next to dead last (I haven’t checked for awhile) in HR in the AL. We are not the only small market team in the AL. Even the notion of the TC being that small is laughable. The TC is a bigger market in marketing-speak which is what matters when measuring potential rumps in the seats and eyeballs for the ads than I believe all the Al Central teams other than Sox. (I say I believe because it’s been a couple of years since I last looked it up but I don’t think we’ve had a seismic population shift to Cleveland, Detroit or KC since then.)
Re: Twins power outage
I think it’s an organizational philosophy that permeates everything they do from minor league instructors to major league coaches. It started with TK, who thought going for the homer was just not worth the risk of striking out. He put a philosophy in place about making contact and running around and forcing the defense to make plays. It works most of the time. Sometimes it doesn’t. Sometimes it rains.
Thanks Christy,
I hadn’t heard that previously re TK. Of course Gardy is a TK clone. Time has passed by both of these gentlemen. One big swing trumps all that hard work of making contact, running over etc. etc. At least meet the current powerball era half way please — coach the Delmons, even the Buschers it’s OK to pull and to K some of the time. It drives me crazy to see stringbeans like Granderson getting big flies and yet heftier Twins can’t. And Adam Dunn, shouldn’t he have like 853 HR already this season??? He’s always on BBTN Touch em all.
Speaking of BBTN even though there’s a lot I hate about that show they just had a really good analysis of Twins defensive lapses in Yankee Stadium, including asleep at the switch Lexi. It will be real interesting to see what Gardy will do about the sloppy play. Give Perk credit for yelling at his teammates. Besides Go-Go and Franchise, he seems to have some attitude and swagger.
Pro, even that class from the late 90’s really didn’t have much power. Guzzie and Rivas — slap hitters. Mint, very occasional power. Koskie, Hunter, Jones better but still way shy of 30 HR. And let’s not even talk about Ortiz. Other scary things: great successes like Santana - rule 5, Nathan and Franchise - AJ trade, Casilla - JC trade, even LNP who is not even part of this power or success conversation - Milton trade. I still wonder about the scouting?
IMHO, the Twins, as an organization, have been living on their reputation rather than up to it. There appear to be few consequences for failure. New blood and new ideas seem a remote idea. When you lack viable competition for your job, there is tendency to become lax. When you become lax, you make more mistakes and the results can mirror the just completed embarrassment at Yankee Stadium. If I were Gardy and my team had just lost three straight, I don’t think that I would want my boss reading that the local sportswriter’s most memorable impression of my pre-game preparation was me doing a crossword puzzle. Then again, like a lot of things with this management staff, it probably doesn’t matter. There does not appear to be any sense of urgency nor intensity involved in their “relaxed world”.
Cmath,
You are correct it is an orgnizatioal philosphy,and I agree TK probably helped put in place,but I believe it was based on economic values more than anything.Puckett and company put up representable power #’s for their era,and TK benifited from them so he knew the value of the long ball.
By the mid ’90’s all those guys were gone and the salary structure industry wide went through the roof,following the HR explosion of that period.The Twins didn’t join the party and,developed “Minny Ball”.TK had no choice really,other than to help come up with a way to stay viable.
Beisbol,The Twins scouting efforts are also economically based.They draft “signable” players who aren’t going to cost them huge bonus money.The last two years are prime Examples.Revere,and the closer from Miami were considered streches as first round pick by most in the industry.That doesn’t mean they won’t become good players,but money,and the ability to sign them had something to do with it.
It also explains why they put a premium on High school players.Use Span as an example.he has been in their system for six years I believe.The Twins haven’t invested any money on him salary wise.If he pans out and becomes more than just a servicable player he may get one big contract from the Twins,then they cut him loose (see Torii Hunter,and all of his former teammates from ‘01 to present).The Twins feel they get the best years out of him before they have to go over board on the salary,then let him walk,and replace him with another young player.
You people are all crazy. None of the young pitchers have pitched poorly enough to lose their spots, regardless of what just happened at Yankee Stadium, We couldn’t win their when we had a veteran pitching staff. Further, Liriano and Livan have the same agent so I don’t see him taking a demotion to the pen.
As far as Liriano’s claim that the Twins want to keep him inthe minors so he cannot file arbitration, the accusation is crap, and his agent knows it. For him to be even close the Twins would have had to call him up 2 months ago, after the gave up 10 ER over 10 innings in 2 starts. I like that he is hungry, but the other guys earned their jobs from the day theseason started. He lopst his, and now he has to wait for some one to lose theirs.
What difference does it make? Liriano or no Liriano they’ll still curl up into the fetal position and wet themselves every time they have to play a team like the Yankees. A box of huggies would do them more good than even a Sandy Koufax in his prime could do for them.
BP: Twins split the home series with New York and took 3 of 4 from Boston at the Dome.
They’re just not a very good road team this year. Combine that with two tough teams (Boston and New York) and there’s your problem.
Chicago I think is the same way. They’ve got the four game sweep at the Cell, but otherwise have played the Sox well.
Article with some tidbits on a couple of The Twins pitchers in the Minors, Fort Myers closer Anthony Slama, and supplemental round pick and recent promotee to Beloit, Shooter Hunt. Both have been ridonkulous this season at their levels.
you do need an Insider account to see it though, so I’ll post their tidbits…
http://insider.espn.go.com/fantasy/baseball/flb/story?page=minors080723
None of the 5 starters on the major league team compares with Liriano. As a result, room should be made for Liriano and someone should be taken out of the rotation. That is a no-brainer.
“In development: Anthony Slama, RP, Twins
-Slama is a draft-and-follow signee who was picked in the 39th round of the 2006 draft out of San Diego and has emerged as a dominant closer at high Class A.
As a 24-year-old he should be dominating at this level, but it’s the extent of his dominance that is intriguing. Slama leads the minor leagues in strikeout rate as well as ERA.
The 6-3 righty has not allowed a homer as a professional while producing a ridiculous strikeout rate with his heavy low-90s sinker from a three-quarters arm slot. His delivery is clean and compact without a lot of wasted effort, allowing him to repeat it well and command to all four quadrants of the strike zone. He adds an average slider to go with his sinker, and his changeup is just a “show me” pitch for lefties that occasionally has a slower delivery and arm speed. The one negative besides his age relative to his level, is that sometimes he tips his pitches and upper-level hitters can exploit that. However, even when he does so, he commands well enough that they still may not be able to do much with it. There are some good skills here to back up the numbers, but again it would be a shock if a polished college pitcher was not dominating the Florida State League to some extent.
The stats speak for themselves. Minor league closers become major league ones far less often than people think, but he’s a name to monitor. He’s clearly ready for a different level of competition, and we’ll have to see how he handles the upper levels of the minors.”
“• Tulane right-hander Shooter Hunt was taken No. 31 overall in this year’s draft by the Twins, and didn’t last long in rookie league play. He made all of four starts in the Appalachian League, which was enough to strike out 34 and allow just four hits in 19 innings. He has now been promoted to low Class A.
Hunt works from 91 to 94 mph with his four-seamer, and can get his two-seamer inside on righties. His curve is a plus pitch, and though it is still in development, he has shown some feel for a changeup. He got away with just two pitches in college and at the rookie level, but he’s going to have to find a usable changeup for lefties and continue to throw consistent strikes — a problem at times in the past — to succeed at the upper levels. Still, it appears the Twins may have struck gold yet again with a pitching prospect.”
another guy picking it up at AAA:
Jason Pridie. From Jim Mandelaro’s Red Wings blog:
“The night started out as a tale of resurgence, with once-slumping, now-hot Jason Pridie jacking two balls out of the park. The guy had 1 homer on June 1, and now he has 11. Amazing.”
Liriano and his agent didn’t help themselves out by yelling kicking and screaming about wanting to get called up. Garza pulled that crap last year and got traded. Liriano should just keep shutting teams down and not complain about not being called up!
Tyler
That is pretty good right there but Span would be hitting leadoff he couldnt be on the bench too. Also there’s no way that Casilla will hit 7th. They will put him at 2, mauer, at 3, and Delmon Young at 6 or 7. Also if we did trade fur Street he’s a closer so I dont know if Oakland would want to trade him. So my idea of the linuep would look like this. (This is with the Beltre trade. If we dont make the Beltre trade I think we should go with a 6th man rotation.)
1-Span
2-Casilla
3-Mauer
4-Morneau
5-Beltre
6-Kubel/Young
7-Kubel/Young
8-Punto
9-Gomez
Rotation- Liriano, Livan, Baker, Blackburn, Perkins (in any order)
Bullpen-
(without Street trade if there was one)
Long Relievers- Bonsor and Bass
Middle Relievers- Craig Breslow, Matt Guerrier, and Jessie Crain
Closer- Joe Nathan
If only we had Neshek…………….
Bench- Harris, Monroe, Buscher,Redmond, Lamb
What is good about this linuep is our first 3 guys are all very patient hitters and will get walks and get on for Morneau, Beltre, and Kubel or Young. Also if Punto and Gomez can get on base on a consistent basis, pitchers will throw fits. 2 speed guys on with 2 more speed hitters up. They will have to worry about the speed on the bases and still consentrate on speedy hitters makes for a great bottom/top of the lineup.
Obie
My thoughts exactly. The twins have too many young quality SP’s. I do not care what the FO says, you always have room for an ACE especially if you currently dont have one and if he is making less than what 2 million? Sure the Twins have lots of good 3/4 type starters, (except Baker who I say is a strong #2) so the Twins need to take the M’s up on their offer and trade one of their four young pitchers whose name is not Baker, add a couple prospects and get Beltre.
Possible Trade idea??
M’s-Beltre
Twins- Slowly,Morales,another prospect
I know this is beating a dead horse, but I do not think this is too steep of a price for the Twins not to do it both financially, and in how much they have to give. Just think of how much fun Gardy could have with a lineup with another right handed bat.
1.Span R
2.Mauer L
3.Young R
4.Morneau L
5.Beltre R
6.Kubel L
7.Casilla S
8.Punto S
9.Gomez L
Beltre is essential to making the Twins go far into the post season. Liriano is essential to making the Twins go far into the post season. Lets kill two birds with one stone here.
SP Rotation
1.Liriano
2.Baker
3.Blackburn
4.Perkins
5.Livan
If the Twins are smart enough to pull the trigger on that trade there is just one more trade the Twins need to make. The Twins need that 8th inning set up guy. I say try to after Hudson Street. Billy Beane is always willing to make a trade, and Street and Nathan would arguably make the best 8/9 duo in baseball.
Possible Trade?
A’s- Street
Twins- Boof, Duensing, another top/mid prospect
Boof is not total garbage, given another chance as a SP with a new team could possibly be all that he needs. I see him as similar to Gallager, the pitcher the A’s recently pickedup. Currently in the bullpen with a high ERA, but defiantly underachieving. Sound like Boof? Add 2 good prospects and Billy would defiantly consider it.
New Bullpen
Closer-Nathan
Setup-Guerrier
7th-Guerier,Crain (this would put those two good pitchers in their more relaxed natural role.
If those to trades were made that would make the Twins the favorites to win the central, and a possible WS contender.
Then all the Twins would need to do is cut Lamb and keep Span. Busher and Lamb play the same role,3B/1B bench player, who do you think is the better player?
Bench:
Redmond-great backup catcher
Monroe-quality power pinch hitter
Span-great backup OF capable of playing all positions.
Harris- goood IF backup
Busher- good 3B/1B backup.
Now that is a great bench. And all these moves would make this team so much better and help him go far into the post season.
