Today’s excitement: Let’s get Jason Bay
Posted on July 31st, 2008 – 9:15 AMBy Howard
So the White Sox have shaken things up this morning by getting Ken Griffey Jr. (XM Radio is reporting that Griffey has agreed to the deal, which he needed to do.) Obviously, the White Sox are strengthening themselves for both the AL Central race and a run into the postseason. The plan would likely be for Griffey to play center field, with Nick Swisher going to first and Paul Konerko’s ailing bat leaving the lineup. Griffey hasn’t played center since 2006, but his zone rating in right field (the best defensive stat, in my opinion) is fourth best among regular right fielders in the majors.
His offensive numbers are .245 average/.355 on-base/.432 slugging. A quick comparison: Kubel is .266/.329/.452. Delmon is .291/.333/.392.
The take here is that the Twins will need to do something today. The Boof-for-Rich Aurelia deal would give the Twins a right-handed bat that’s a small upgrade over Brendan Harris at third base, even though Aurelia has played mostly at first since he joined the Giants last season. It would also provoke a yawn from here.
Keep in mind that the playing field on deals can change every 15 minutes between now and the 3 p.m. deadline. With the Manny Ramirez talk, for example, there have been all sorts of deals that have been talked about as if they’re on the verge … and then they don’t happen. And Jason Bay, Pittsburgh’s slugging right fielder (.282/.375/.519, 22 HR) was reportedly headed to Tampa Bay yesterday and now is being talked about as part of a three-team deal involving Manny.
Power? Right-handed bat? Canadian? Boy, I’d like to think the Twins are working behind the scenes on that one.
Bay is under contract through next season (at $7.5 million for 2009, according to a Pittsburgh report) and would make a fine gift to the people of Minnesota from Twins management in preparation for the new ballpark. And, frankly, I think the Twins could put together a package that the Pirates would find reasonable. After all, the Pirates are a last-place team that has room for Luis Rivas and Doug Mientkiewicz on their roster.
Do I give them Span, Slowey and their choice of Kubel, Young or Cuddyer for Bay? I think so. Do you? (Friends, please don’t try to get him for a second-tier shopping list. You know, “Uhhhh, let’s trade Boof, Punto, Lamb, Harris, Livan and Bass for Bay.) If the Pirates are willing to take Jeremy Hermida as their haul in a three-way Manny deal, I’d think the Twins could create something attractive with the inventory on hand.
Do I like Mauer/Bay/Morneau batting two/three/four starting tomorrow? A lot.
Back in the days before 24/7 sports saturation, deals always seemed to occur on a continuum. There’d be rumor… talks… and then a deal. I don’t fault contemporary reporters for having a lower batting average than their counterparts of a previous generation. They are stepping up to the plate a lot more, with information that may well be current in the moment of their conversations with sources.
Yesterday afternoon, for example, it was thought that Brian Roberts wasn’t available from the Orioles. By last night, though, that seemed to have changed. That’s still the No. 1 deal involving the Twins that I’ve heard about. That would be a good one, for now and the future.
But the fact that there was no chatter about Griffey-to-Chicago or Pudge-to-New York before those deals became public gives me hope that the Twins are working on something big. To think they can sustain their offensive momentum for two months with Punto replacing Casilla is silly thinking.
I want Jason Bay here tomorrow.
other people are here too
294 Responses to "Today’s excitement: Let’s get Jason Bay"
Can’t give up Slowey. Not enough left in the cupboard for starting pitching. Liriano comes up. If someone gets hurt…the Twins have zip left to help.
Humber and Mulvey are not ready. Use one or both of them in a deal with the Pirates instead.
Mulvey and Duensing would be small upgrade to Livan.
Liriano would be an upgrade to say Perkins.
Howard if Bay was acquired Cuddy would have to go in the deal.. if Span and Young/Kubel leave that leaves the Twins 1 player short since Cuddy is still hurt and may never recover this year
Trading Jason bay for Kevin Slowey would be the worst move in Twins history. Especially if you add more players to the deal. Slowey after Baker is the Twins best starter hands down. He has a lot of potential for future sucess as well. Good K rate, superb control. He is basically the next Radke.
If you want to give up Kubel that seems fair along with Luke Hughes or Denard Span and a lower prospect. Or maybe Blackburn or Perkins and Kubel and a low prospect. But Jason Bay isn’t a superstar. He hit 248 just two years ago and had 59 RBI last year… Kevin Slowey incredible…
Bay and a credible reliver(if pittsburg has one, not really familiar with their system)
for Perk, Span and a B prospect.
Cuddyer, Boof, and top minor league pitching prospect.
the twins need a righty batting behind morneau. bay would cost way too much, though. they wouldn’t fill a hole in the field by getting another outfielder, just a right handed bat. we’d create a hole in the rotation and lose a gifted outfielder in denard span who is insurance in the future if carlos gomez never learns how to take a pitch. the pirates would be getting multiple top prospects from the marlins and red sox for bay, along with hermida. it would cost the twins A LOT to get him.
aurilia and mark grudzielanek (sp?) would be upgrades over having adam everett on the roster and nick punto could play short with harris off the bench. and those trades wouldn’t cost anyone on the major league roster outside of boof, who shouldn’t be on the major league roster in the first place.
Span,Slowey, and Kubel,Young,or Cuddyer? Crazy! When healthy Cuddyer and Bay are the same player. The outfield is fine. Need infield help.
Span, Slowey and their choice of Kubel/Cuddyer/Young? Are you joking? Bay can hit, but we don’t need outfielders and no team in their right mind would give up a solid starting pitcher and two average to above average outfielders for a guy who hit .247 last year. You’re out of your mind, enough with this blog.
I agree with everything that Sean just said. Right now Jason Bay’s name has such value b/c there are no other names on the market. I do believe it would benefit us to acquire Roberts but that won’t happen so hopefully our players can still continue the Summer of Stun.
Billy will probably pull off a trade for some old washed up has-been fresh off the scrap heap and then say “well this is the best we could do”. We all know Terry Ryan would do this so I hope I am wrong about Billy.
Crazy talk, Howard. Just crazy talk.
Where would Bay fit in though….I know he’s a great player (although check his numbers this season, they’re not off the charts), but our outfield is already stacked? You don’t want to give up on Young / Go-Go / Span yet, do you?
If Bay comes in, then he DH’s, which is probably something he doesn’t want to do.
Package a deal with Doug Mientkiewicz…now you might have something…Dougie hit his 15th double of the year last night and is hitting .283. By comparison, that’s 4 more than Jason Kubel in 110 fewer at-bats…and a batting average that’s 20 points higher…and Mienty can play a variety of positions with remarkable success…
Yes, I would rather have Mienty manning 3B than Brian Buscher right now….but I digress (I know the Twins won’t make a play for him)
Back to Bay, it would be cool to have that powerful righty, but again, unless he’s willing to DH for a couple months, I don’t see where he fits into the mix…plus, giving up Slowey is probably too much if Bay is going to be a rent-a-player.
Shouldn’t we start some movement to try and stop this Punto batting second thing in its tracks before it becomes the death of our season?
come on getting Cuddy back from DL is just like trading for Bay.. Nathan and Sid said so
I’m not a 100% sure, but isn’t Cuddyer not trade able because he’s on the disabled list?
I’d be willing to part with Kubel, Mulvey, and a mid-level prospect to acquire Bay, but I won’t even begin to get my hopes up…
Slowey should be untouchable, Perk on the other hand…
Young should be untouchable also.
Bay is signed until ‘09 for $7.5M per. Pitssburgh’s starting pitching is a mess but they do have the OF prospects to replace Bay, so I think that Perk and someone like Swarzak might be desirable for them. They cannot take on Cuddy’s salary because he is owed more money than Bay. Kubel would be an arbitration issue for them also.
Since we are talking Bay, heck, why not talk Ramirez? Based on what the BoSox are getting for him (and paying his whole salary), I think that if the Twins were to absorb some of the salary, Manny could be had for Kubel and Perkins (who would be a reliever for Boston)
“Proud to be your” Bud Selig can approve a trade involving a player on DL
Thanks Howard. Great thought on Bay! That’s a trade worth doing, although I would be inclined to substitute Blackburn or Perkins b4 Slowey. But, if push comes to shove, and we had the chance, then parting with Slowey would just have to be. Bay and a (hopefully) rejuvenated Liriano would put the Twins in the driver seat.
Howard, give BS a call and let him know this is a great idea demanding immediate attention. Go Twins!
Kubel, Mulvey and a mid-level prospect won’t even come close. Maybe if you add one of the Twins’ pitchers, but I’m of the view that our five young starters should be untouchable, even for Bay. They’re the reasons the Twins are even in this thing.
And I think the reaction on this blog is a clear indication of the challenge for the Twins. People call for Billy Smith’s head if they don’t do something big, but when he does they gripe that he gave up too much.
Billy should go after our old buddy Mink. Fans would welcome him back and his numbers are very respectable this year. Good infielder even though he is a lefty.
The over-romanticizing over our current Twins players is borderline insane. Cuddyer when healthy is the same as Bay? Are you on Mushrooms? Cuddyer has 3 HR this year when he was healthy. He is supposed to protect Morneau? OK, Slowey is a good pitcher, but is he great? Is he a playoff stud who will shut down a team? Should be be considered untouchable? Not in the slightest. Before 3 weeks ago, no-one would have batted an eye about trading Span in any deal for anyone. Now? After 3 great weeks following 3 mediocre years in the minors, we would be stupid to trade him? What? Would I prefer to trade Blackburn or Perkins instead of Slowey? Absolutely. I would love a Cuddyer/Blakburn/Span for Bay and a RP. Under Ryan, there would be no chance of this. Under Smith? Who knows…but I am not holding my breath…You have to give to get, in most cases. I think duping Sabean years ago has made our fans too greedy…
You can’t trade a player that is on the DL and why would the Pirates want Cuddyer’s contract which after less than a year was a mistake. The Pirates don’t want to add payroll they want young prospects that are major league ready. I don’t think the Twins and Pirates are good trading partners. The Twins do need a RH bat but not an OF unless that guy is going to DH everyday. I still think a Beltre trade is a good possibility with Blackburn and another prospect going to Seattle.
Since when did Span become trade bait??? I’d really like to see an outfield of Bay, G0-GO, and Span… with Span lead-off hitting… Blackburn can go before perk or slowy… he’s older and imho has less upside.
darren brings up some fantastic points, there.
It is nothing short of astounding what Justin Morneau has done this season with next to zero lineup protection behind him…if the Twins are serious about making a run, it would be nice to get that guy. Kubel and Young have both had their shots, but I’m just not seeing it.
You have to give to get…so maybe you put some attractive guys out there and see what happens.
Yep, leave the Twins starting pitching alone. That has been a staple of hours throughout this decade. As “I” see it, losing Santana and Silva, and trading Garza has left us a little short in the available starting pitching department. From every indication, it would appear that besides Liriano, we have NO immediate help in the event one of these young starts either gets hurt or develops a “tired arm” after throwing this many innings.
we have: plethora of OF’s
we need: middle infield (re: casilla’s injury)
we want: RH power
the question: why trade for another OF which only partially satisfies the ‘want’ category??? Trade for the ‘need’ and hope it also covers some of the ‘want’!!!
None of that desparation nonsense here will ever happen
might as well get jack wilson at the same time while you’re dreaming.
i’m just concerned how any of these possible moves could mess up the team chemistry. i guess as long as we have livan the starting staff will be ok. doesn’t breslow have a degree in chemitry from yale?
JD says:
July 31st, 2008 at 9:40 am
Kubel, Mulvey and a mid-level prospect won’t even come close. Maybe if you add one of the Twins’ pitchers, but I’m of the view that our five young starters should be untouchable, even for Bay. They’re the reasons the Twins are even in this thing.
Great point, JD…that is exactly right. Those guys SHOULD be untouchable, in my humble opinion.
Span AND Slowey AND Kubel for Bay? Am I even reading this right? Three contributing players from our major league roster. For Bay? Wow. He must be a lot better than I thought he was.
It would take Span plus Perkins, Slowey, Blackburn or another good pitching prospect at least to land Bay. I am not willing to give that up. I hope Bill Smith isn’t either.
I also hope we don’t the Rich Aurelia deal either. He would give us nothing. We already have Lamb and Everett. Why would we need another again player who’s best days are far behind him?
I think Bay would be an improvement over Cuddyer. Bay’s down-year last year seems to be a fluke as the three years prior he was capable of hitting .280-.290 with great on-base skills and hitting 25-32 HR. This year he seems back on his normal pace again.
However, I don’t think I see the Twins parting with enough young talent to make this deal feasible. (But I also didn’t see the Garza-Young trade coming so hey, what do I know)
if slowey goes, we will have a weaker rotation. i think we do have a good rotation…they all have their ups and downs sure, but they are young (minus Livan). They will get better the more they pitch, but they still will have off days. doesn’t even Santana still have off days? Mark Burhele has them, all pitchers and players have their off days. no one is perfect.
I don’t think Slowey would be trade bait. There aren’t many options the Twins have for starters in the minors left (I know Liriano, but otherwise, no). We need our arms, not outfielders.
I like the idea Howard, but it just doesn’t fit I don’t think.
They need IF depth, not OF, I think we’re stacked there right now the combo of Young, Gomez, Span, Cuddyer, Monroe, Kubel. 2 of them would have to go in the deal and Bay would essentially have to be the DH. Improves the offense yes, but doesn’t add the needed piece in the IF.
I wouldn’t be against this happening though…
Yep, another great point Jason. We don’t need Aurilia…
I would prefer we keep our prospects and ride out the year with what we have. We’ll be getting a boost from Cuddyer when he returns, right? RIGHT?
I may be grasping at straws 
Well why not have a decent DH in the Twins lineup for once in Bay? It would clearly be the biggest trade deadline move the Twins have made in at least the last 20 years? I give it a 2% chance of happening. Rich Aurilia here we come!
giant bloggers really don’t want boof back! surprised?
Aurilia’s .333 obp would tie him for third best on the club with Young behind Morneau and Mauer.
Why would we consider trading span or slowey? They are part of the building blocks to the next generation of Twins. Keep them and trade the guys who don’t fit for the long term for a third baseman or short stop. Trade Cuddyer, Livan, Kubel, Monroe, etc. and some minor leaguers for the best young slugging third baseman/short stop we can get.
“I would prefer we keep our prospects and ride out the year with what we have. We’ll be getting a boost from Cuddyer when he returns, right? RIGHT?”
so is the question now whether the Twins want to be a TRUE contender this season or play the waiting game as planned?
I don’t see any harm in trying to be a true contender now, will give the young team even more experience in the situation when they get to whatever point they’re expecting in the future, and maybe even pull a WS run while they’re hot…
Jason Bay is a nice player, but absolutely NOT what we need. When Cuddy comes back, we’re at a logjam in the OF as it is, and Kubel can play there as well. What we need on this team is Adrian Beltre. Right-handed 3B, good pop, gold glove defense, a “team” guy, and is signed through next year. Let them pick between Baker, Slowey, or Hughes and build a package around one of them.
Crazy talk, I say. Leave Span alone. 
Howard,
Your proposal seems to me like it is just making a trade to say you made a trade. Why give up on Young already? That is basically trading Garza, Bartlett, Slowey, and Span for Bay. The fact that you even have Young and Kubel as even in a trade is ludicrious. I can’t read anymore comments about Bay because it makes so little sense to trade for him, especially when you are buying him as high as he will ever be.
Whoops, I meant Blackburn, NOT Baker! Sorry
Howard, thank God some of you aren’t a GM. “Do I give them Span, Slowey and their choice of Kubel, Young or Cuddyer for Bay? I think so. Do you?” HELL NO!
You’d think Jason Bay was Albert Pujols or something listening to you.
actually thats not quite accurate… just third behind two guys in front that have enough at bats to qualify. Span and Casillia are up there too, but such small sample sizes! Aurilia actually has only put up 280 at bats this season so he’s not a qualifier either.
I don’t see the need for any more outfielders. If we need a big right-handed bat I’d go for Beltre, but not if it costs us Slowey, Baker, Span, or Blackburn.
Cuddyer/Perkins/Span? Hell take Boof too. It would be a little painful giving up Slowey. He’s clearly got a lot of potential.
Forget Bay, we have enough in the OF right now. I’d rather seem the Twins pursue Roberts, Beltre, and/or Griffey. Griffey would fit in nicely as the DH, and Roberts and Beltre would be quality players that aren’t washed up (like Aurilia). Looks like the Sox will get Griffey, we were probably too busy trying to get LaTroy Hawkins back.
Trading for bay strikes me as trying to beat the White Sox at their own game, which isn’t going to happen.
Cuddy, Slowey, and a prospect.
Dear Twins FO,
Please don’t trade for Jason bay. He is a fine player but our outfield is fine now, maybe even overcrowded with Young, Gogo, Cuddy, Span, Kubel and Monroe. Please get a BIG bat for thirdbase. Maybe Beltre, Blalock or that kid from Colerado.
Blackburn, Slowey, Perkins. I’m not 100% sold on any of them being a dependable starter for the Twins down the road. Just too early to tell. I mean, I thought Boof was going to have a break out year. Better be careful which one you trade away.
the mlb.com trade blog says that it is 50-50 that Griffey will waive his no-trade cause to go to the Sox. He is still in discussions with them. That said, he will not be better than Kubel as the DH.
The one guy I’d like to see for the stretch run is Delmon’s brother, Dmitri Young, who could be attainable for prospects and can be the every day DH
Why do the Twins need to keep players in the bank? Let’s play for today.
To me, this is where the Twins’ failure to trade Silva and/or Hunter at last year’s deadline for prospects is so glaring. The fact is, we really don’t have the farm system to get a Bay or a Beltre without giving up two or three current contributors.
Right now, the best they could hope for is to get a prospect for Monroe and package Boof with that prospect for a decent middle infielder.
I’m not holding my breath.
Trading Kubel would be the second coming of trading (or releasing, I guess) David Ortiz.
You don’t trade a guy that has the second most HR on your team, and has had a great June and July, and who finished strong last year.
He was our third best hitter last year down the stretch.
I would be sad to see him go.
Cuddy, on the other hand, is mediocre, and his 24-HR season was a fluke. I’d gladly trade him, Boof, and Manship for Bay.
Of all the numb skull ideas in the proposed trades! Sometimes the Star Tribune sports writers ought to be the ones traded for a writer to be named later.
Yup, Beltre should be the guy, rather than Bay. And if giving up Liriano gets it done, so be it. As memorable as his ‘06 stretch was, I agree with Britt Robson at The Rake, that he’s still a huge injury risk, and his trade value may never be higher.
jayson bay at third? has he ever played infield?
“The one guy I’d like to see for the stretch run is Delmon’s brother, Dmitri Young, who could be attainable for prospects and can be the every day DH”
Isn’t he on the DL right now, trying to control his diabetes?
No way we should trade Span or Slowey. Anyway, I’ll be surprised if the Twins FO does anything other than a yawner.
Gardy has been mega stupid where his love affair with LNP goes, but this batting 2nd crap has got to stop!
Jason Bay would add instant success to the Twins offense. The guy has averaged damn near thirty big flys and 100 rbi’s a year, and already has 22 homers this season. Last time I looked our leader had only 17. Not to mention his lack of protection in the Pirates order, Dougie, Jason Michaels and Ryan Doumit dont scare any opposing staff. Think of the gopher balls he will see batting between the M&M boys. I am a huge Cuddy fan but these two players are not even comparable.
Giving up Slowey will allow for the Twins to bring up Liriano, whom we all should feel will contribute more to the team in the future than Slowey. As long as we keep the Scooter Baker we will be fine. As for the outfielders I would like to keep Young but he would probably be a key piece.
Geez, I guess there wasn’t much interest in this! Lots of good points of all sides of the discussion.
On the Cuddyer/DL issue: He’s eligible to come off any time, so that wouldn’t be a problem.
where the Twins’ failure to trade Silva and/or Hunter at last year’s deadline for prospects is so glaring
Getting Shooter Hunt and Carlos Gutierrez for them was not a bad deal…
Texas Twins Fan: Calm down. It’s just an idea. Go dunk your head in some cold water and get over it.
well if bay COULD play third that would clear up some of the how are we going to play all 4 outfielders problem i guess. kubel/mulvey/humber for Bay
Oh yea.
Howard,
Is this a joke? Jason Bay for Span AND Slowey AND choice of Kubel, Young or Cuddy? This is a joke. Right?
I like the idea of getting Jason Bay. For anyone knocking him, here’s his OPS+ for the last five years, including so far this year: 132, 150, 138, 93, 135, for a five year average of 129.6. Morneau, on the other hand, 121, 93, 140 (MVP), 121, 149, for a five year average of 124.8. Granted, Morneau is younger and I think better at his age than Bay was. But Jason Bay is an EXCELLENT hitter. You can’t give them Span b/c he’s the only player who’s anything close to a leadoff guy who can consistently get on base (except Mauer). But I say Howard’s package is a little too much. Give them Kubel, their choice of a minor league pitching prospect, a minor league stud (even Hughes, much as it pains me), and see if you can get Bay (and Mientkiewicz in return to play third). I’d even be ok throwing Cuddyer in there and taking back either the minor league pitcher or the minor league bat. But three young major league-ready players, all with upside? Way too much.
Pete D,
he is on the DL, that could be a waiver move in August after his diabetes is under control. It would cost the Twins practically nothing, would be up with the club in September and can only be a good thing.
Jeez Howard, I thought you were the voice of reason on these blogs, but you’re way out in left field on this one (no pun intended). Have you had your morning coffee? Slowey alone for Bay might be a fair trade, but to add to more starting outfielders? I can’t believe you’ve given up on Young already. We’re set at outfield, it’s the infield that needs to be fixed.
sorry, forget cuddyer. DL. my bad
slowey should be untouchable. i think he’s going to be a radke-caliber pitcher only better. if we’re going to make any deals, it’s time to shed some of the minor-league pitching. we have 5 very good young starters (w/lirinao) and a slew of “prospects” who will never see the light of day with these guys in the rotation for the next 6-8 years. ship off a robertson/manship/guerra for a ss or 3b. that’s really the only area we need to shore up for the near future (granted neshek comes back healthy)
as for this year, HAFTA pick up a righty bat to protect morneau…trade the minor league arms for beltre (if they’ll take them)
sorry…’liriano’
bad spelling
Howard,
Although Cuddy is elgible to come off the DL, the Twins would have to clear a spot to take him off the DL before trading him. I am assuming that guy would be Bass but I’m not sure. That is something else you would have to think about before trading him.
Gammons says:
Arthur Rhodes traded to Marlins for Gaby Hernandez
Looks like the Marlins think they can contend even with their youngsters.
Span, Slowey, AND Young/Cuddyer for Bay??? Are you crazy??? 3 major league premium players?
So we’d give up our outfield and an emerging young pitcher (when was the last time another Twins pitcher had a shutout, let alone 2 in a year?) for a player who’ll bolt in free agency at the end of next year. Especially With a premium on pitching (See Carlos Silva, 12 mil a year for what??), you can’t do that trade.
I agree with Trav.
Howard, what got in to you this morning?
All you that don’t want to trade a starter because you don’t want to deplete the rotation, how do they get better next year, exactly? Because, if you aren’t willing to trade a starter this year, when they are just out of the playoffs, I’m guessing you won’t trade a starter next year either.
If you want to get a legit hitter back, you have to give up legit player(s) in the deal.
A legit bat at 3rd/SS/2B is more important to everyday winning than having 5 quality starters. Teams win all the time with 3-5 good starters, as long as they have consistent offense. Really, look at the Red Sox the last few years and who their 4-5 starters have been. They’d win more games with Mulvey as the fifth starter (ready or not, or Livan) and 1 more legit hitter than they would with Blackburn/Perkins/slowey and Punto/Everett in the every day lineup.
I’m not 100% convinced I’d do what Howard suggests, but I’m not 100% against it either. It might be a chance worth taking.
I guess you are like most fans Howard Sinker in the fact that you know “very little” about baseball. Jason Bay is a good player for a horrible team. To put him on a good team and give up the package you suggest is insane. This is a guy who was awful in 2007 and really has not been much better in 2008. He has at times feasted on weak NL pitching but he is never the guy to come through against premium pitchers. Additionally, he is a free swinger which means he is always susceptible to the big K. I’d hate to think he would get up for the Twins in the 9th inning late in the season and have to go up against Bobby Jenks with the season on the line. I can spare you the suspense— Bay would K just like always. Besides, you make the case that he is “cheap at 7.5 million for next year” but I wonder if you’ve even attempted to look at the salary escalations next season for guys like Mauer, Morneau, Nathan, Cuddyer, etc. Perhaps you should OPEN MOUTH and INSERT FOOT.
Kevin Kouzmanoff, need I say more?
Cuddyer, one of the four young starters, and either Bonser or a minor league pitcher should be enough for the Bucs to pull the trigger
I just don’t see why everyone is so intent on keeping Slowey. Yeah, the kid has great games. But then he will have a terrible game. He simply does not have an “out” pitch and has trouble finishing off hitters. Does he have Radke-type control? Yeah, but his off speed pitches are not where near Radke’s.
If you can send Slowey home to the Pittsburgh area and include Boof for Jason Bay, you get it done and worry about putting Cuddyer somewhere later.
As a long time Giant fan, excluding the recent Bonds era, I know that Aurillia is an outstanding ball player and would add some pop to the lineup. He has power and is good in the cluth. I think he would be a respectable force hitting behind Morneau. Aurillia is very competitive and would definately help the team in the stretch run.
Mike: Fine. Let’s do what you say and trade one of the five. Then who do you put in at a No. 5? NOBODY in AAA besides Liriano is doing anything. So your choice is Livan or some dude who isn’t ready for the majors. And either way, you’re giving up once out of every five days.
Maybe in the offseason they can consider trading one of the five, then using the free-agent market to shore up that spot, but not right now.
I wonder if the Twins are tired of Slowey’s inconsistency. 2-3 mediocre/bad starts and 1 great one. I could see them moving him the same way they moved Garza.
As a friend pointed out to me:
“WHY DO WE NEED ANOTHER OUTFIELDER? And why should we overpay for said outfielder? If we moved Delmon, isn’t that basically giving up on that trade forever? He’s 22 – give him at least a couple of seasons before you pull the plug on that deal. We would essentially be trading Delmon Young (Matt Garza, Eddie Morlan and Bartlett) PLUS Slowey PLUS a prospect for Jason Bay? This is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.”
Exactly.
What about a package of Blackburn, Crain and Kubel for Jason Bay. In my opinion, Crain has great stuff but doesn’t have the emotional composure to be a great setup man. He would make a good trading chip because he has good career numbers. Twins could then bring up Ricky Barret or make another trade for a reliever. Also trade Monroe to Rays for a reliever and bring up Randy Ruiz who can back up Morneau at first and would have just as much right handed power off the bench as Monroe.
The Twins fans don’t have a snowball’s chance in hell of seeing Jason Bay in a Minnesota Twins uniform. It won’t happen. Pohlad is too stingy.
Anything we got from Crain this year was supposed to be a bonus because of his surgery last year. He should be better next year.
JD, they won’t sign a FA next year, not that is any better than Mulvey/Humber/Manship/Swarzak.
And, you aren’t giving up once every 5 days, you are just like most other contenders. You have 1 weak link in your rotation that will give you 1-2 bad starts and 1-2 mediocre starts for every good start. Number 5 pitchers effect the w-l record once every 5-6 games (as many go in and out of the rotation). Position players effect the w-l record every day.
Clearly it weakens the rotation, but it strengthens the lineup (assuming you trade for the right guy) all 162 games (or 150 or so).
JD, one question: do you think this O is now good enough to beat the great pitchers and great hitting of LAA, Bos, NYY, TB, Whities in the post season? I don’t.
If the choice is Bay or Beltre…(Both would cost us the same players/propects)?
I choose Beltre. But, of course, I didn’t mention THE MONEY.
Blackburn, Crain and Kubel for Jason Bay
add Matt Capps and that might be a fair trade…
In the Manny 3-way scenario the Pirates are getting Hermida + Ryan Tucker (who is about at the level of Swarzak as a prospect). Kubel + Swarzak would be better than what they are getting from the Marlins at this point
I find it absolutely fantastic that Twins fans are willing to ride this pennant race out with the status-quo.
With Detroit breathing down our necks and Chicago replacing Konerko with Griffey Jr. everyone is actually content with the current state of the team?
We’re platooning the infield with Buscher, Harris, Punto and Everett. Does that not disturb anyone else?
And people act as if Cuddy is going to push us over the edge? The guy had an above average season in ‘06. That’s it.
I don’t know if the Bay trade is the right trade, but SOMETHING needs to be done to get us to the playoffs. And that something doesn’t involve Aurilla.
JD - logic on the rotation is wrong…
Livan is staying for 2 reasons, 1. I don’t see anybody wanting him in a trade. 2. Gardy and the FO love his presence.
SO, by trading one of the 3 young pitchers (NOT BAKER) right now we can get potentially:
1. a needed hitter for our lineup, either 2B or 3B now. This doesn’t mess up anything. Casilla is the SS of next year if we get a 2B. We NEED a 3B anyway. offense IMPROVES.
2. AND Liriano gets moved up into the rotation which IMPROVES it no matter which of Blackburn, Slowey or Perkins goes.
NEXT YEAR:
Livan will be gone. Baker should have his Ace spot cemented unless Liriano retakes it. Either of those 2 is a GREAT #2. the other two who are not traded are still the same guys, which is a pretty damn good first 4 starters.
Then theres still 3 other guys who were battling for the #5 spot in the rotation in spring training: Mulvey, Humber, Duensing. I’m assuming one of them might be a piece to a trade to get Beltre. So, 2 of those left. There are several teams that would have any of those 3 in their rotation already, and they wouldn’t be any worse than Livan, whom they’d be replacing.
We are NOT losing ANYTHING for the NOW or the FUTURE if the FO decides to pursue a deal like this, and that tells me without a doubt that they SHOULD.
Casilla has had a nice year, but let’s not kid ourselves, he’s not the key to the lineup. No need to panic. The Twins need to seriously consider this deal before giving away the store for a middling power hitter like Bay.
mike wants wins,
there are more than 1 weak links in the Twins’ rotation. Right now the rotation has (WHIP numbers in parenthesis):
a number 2 type starter (Baker, 1.115)
a number 2-3 type starter (Slowey, 1.107)
a number 4-5 type starter (Blackburn, 1.276)
a number 5/emergency type starter who is better suited for the pen (Perkins, 1.433)
a below replacement starter (Livan, 1.632)
If you replace Liriano for one of them (most likely Perkins in the pen with Bass gone) you solve that problem, and you can win in a post season with 3-4 reliable starters (if Liriano works out). The problem is that regardless every 5th day you will have to start a sub-par starter on your way reaching the post season
Howard for G.M!!!!! Now, his proposed trade is the type of ballsy move the Twins should be making. Almost all of their “tweaking” moves of the past, few years have backfired (Lamb, Monroe, Everett… Boone, Cirilla(sp?), etc). And i second the thought elsewhere that Smith has only hurt this roster with his moves. Short term (all we have to go on) Garza move was awful. Santana could have stayed for a year with Span leading off and in center field all year. Hindsight-20/20 and all that, but I’d rather management fall on its face trying to WIN something than to kee making little errors trying to tread water. Some day, we’ll wonder why they didn’t surround Hall of Famers Morneau and Mauer with a chance at winning it all.
I think if anybody is should be moved out of the rotation, it should be Slowey, cuz you know the Twins are too stubborn to admit they were wrong on Livan.
Blackburn is a good groundball pitcher and is learning in the bigs. Perkins has proved he can start at this level as well.
Include Slowey in a package for Beltre, Roberts, or Bay.
Not sure I agree that Bay is the Twins most pressing need.Is he a RH power hitter to protect Morneau? Yes,but a lot depends on what the Twins hear from the doctors with regards to Casilla’s thumb.A trade for Roberts might be more appropriate if Casilla is in fact finished for the season.If Cuddyear is only a couple of weeks away the Twins could gamble that he would be the protection Morneau needs.Beltre would also be on my wish list before Bay.
As far as what to give up I’d say if there really is interest in Span i’d take it while he’s still hot.His numbers are coming back down to earth as the league adjusts to him, so he’ll probably never be more valuable than he is now.If including someone like Kubel,or Buscher is needed fine.I’d say no deal should involve the big five of Baker,Liriano,Blackburn,Perkins,or Slowey (in that order)if possibile.ANY other minor league pitching prospect should be made available for the right player.
Fans need to realize that what the Twins are playing for in ‘08 is really just a chance to win another division title.Does any one here think this team even with one trade, has much of a shot in the playoffs against LA,Boston,or New York? Any trade the Twins make needs to be looked at as part of the longer term goal of seriously competing in ‘09,’10 and beyond.If Roberts or Beltre are landed that should include possible extensions to them to keep them around for more than a year.
One final thought,If the Rays really are interested in Monroe DO IT!A gas voucher would be fair in return.Opposing pitchers have hit his bat squarely about as many time as the Twins could hope for(8).The same goes for Boof, get what you can for the guy.
I agree with malachy 100%: “leading off and in center field all year. Hindsight-20/20 and all that, but I’d rather management fall on its face trying to WIN something than to kee making little errors trying to tread water.”
To everyone who thinks we should just keep all of our average players and say that they will improve or stay the same or whatever, I give you the 2008 Cleveland Indians. I bet an Indians fan would have told you last year, well Asdrubal Cabrera for a full year will be great, look how good he will do. Carmona and Westbrook are both good young pitchers, full seasons from them, and we will be fine. Perez and Betancourt will dominate in the bullpen. Pronk will stay the same and continure to mash, World Series, here we come! People can get worse, people can get injured, etc. We are right in the think of the playoff race. I say we go for it…. We have good starting pitching, not great starting pitching. Slowey, Blackburn and Perkins have been good. But do you think any playoff team will be the least bit scared of any of them? Liriano and Baker, yes, the rest of them, they should not be considered untouchable…If we have to give up one of them for Bay or Beltre, I am all for it…
Mike: Of those four you mentioned, only Mulvey is even close, and certainly none of them is ready to join the rotation now - which is what you propose. And even if you do throw in a Blackburn or a Slowey in a trade for a Beltre, the Mariners would want one of those guys, too.
Yes, our offense could use a boost, especially with Casilla out. I’m not saying we shouldn’t try to get a bat, but I just don’t think we have enough assets in the system to make the trade you want.
Remember: The Twins DID give up pitchers in the offseason, two of them. (And many people on this blog continue to lambaste the Twins for the Young-for-Garza trade). At the time, we had enough pitchers to step into the rotation (three of them).
We do not have that now.
And you’re smoking something if you think teams just have “3 or 4″ good starters. That’s ridiculous. The Red Sox, White Sox, Yanks and everybody else do everything possible to shore up those “weak links” of which you speak.
I don’t think getting Bay helps as much as a guy like Beltre, as with Bay you’re looking at upgrading a position that doesn’t need upgrading as bad as 3B.
It’d be like trading Morneau for Tex. At best it’s a marginal upgrade one way or the other (by comparison, not saying anything about either)
I’d rather see them target 3B, as it’s been an organizational weakness for YEARS.
Kubel isn’t God on Wheels, but he’s certainly better than what they’d be rolling with at 3B (Buscher) if they went with Bay instead.
Earlier in Span’s hot streak I said he could be good for a trade. Then Cuddy got hurt, and then Casilla got hurt. So Span is needed not only in the OF, but also in the lineup. I will retract requests to trade Span while his value his high because he is no the only thing solidifying the top of the lineup (Twins don’t have a #2 hitter unless they shift Mauer, and then they’re back to no #3 hitter)
Twins are too stubborn to admit they were wrong on Livan.
They weren’t wrong about Livan. He was signed to be Carlos Silva without the riddiculous contract.
He’s done that. And in the meantime he’s been BETTER than what the Twins would’ve had if they hadn’t got Livan and instead have extended Silva’s contract like some were ragging on them for not doing.
Short term (all we have to go on) Garza move was awful.
Let’s compare the major league components for that trade:
a. Delmon Young 2008: .291/.333/.392 vs Twins’ LF 2007: .248/.303/.374 (advantage Twins 2008)
b. Harris 2008: .255/.311/.364 vs Bartlett 2008: .252/.294/.292 (Big advantage Twins 2008)
c Garza 2008: 9-6 3.56 ERA vs Blackburn 2008 (who would be in AAA had Garza been with the Twins and took Garza’s position in the rotation): 7-6 3.69 ERA (slight advantage Rays)
so, even in the short term, the 2008 Twins are better than the 2007 Twins because of that trade
I also don’t know why the blogs are up in arms over the Garza/Young trade. The fact remains, Young is a 22 year old, adapting to a new organization and is still batting close to .300. Is he showing the power that was predicted? No. Will it come? Maybe. But a .300 hitter? Come on.
Blackburn has performed just as well as Garza, and it just so happens Garza’s name is getting thrown around in the national media because the Rays are in an AL East division race.
If anybody thinks you can just trade one of our starters and get a stud 3B that would propel us into first place and into the World Series, you’re high. Beltre would require one of those guys, plus two or three more prospects. The Twins’ farm system just doesn’t have that right now.
And my logic on the starting rotation is spot-on. The Twins should replace Livan with Liriano, which would provide an instant upgrade. Liriano is the only guy ready to step into the rotation who has No. 1-starter stuff. That would give the Twins two solid starters (Liriano and Baker), one control guy who has shown flashes of brilliance (Slowey) and two strong starters on the back end (Blackburn and Perkins). And you’d have them for years. Plenty of teams would chew their arms off for that.
And if you think offense will fix all ills, go ask Texas why the heck they’re not in first place with the bats they have.
“A. says:
July 31st, 2008 at 10:30 am
I find it absolutely fantastic that Twins fans are willing to ride this pennant race out with the status-quo. ”
No, what is disturbing is that for a club that relies primarily on its farm system, ESPECIALLY its young pitchers, we’re so willing the mortgage the future for an “okay” outfielder, when we already have a glut of outfielders, and on the way back.
The real need exists at 3B, perhaps in the rotation, and DEFINITELY in the bullpen. Furthermore, we have two absolute bums in the bullpen in Boof and Bass. If ANYTHING, upgrade the bullpen. Or perhaps use the “addition by subtraction” method and just jettison one of these guys (while you’re at it, jettison Livan as well; he’s basically throwing batting practice…also, his demeanor on the mound absolutely SUCKS).
I’ll rephrase my stance on Livan:
The Twins were right on Livan helping the young staff and on eating innings.
I feel they were not right thinking that he’d through the entire season without the AL hitters figuring out his 85 mph fastball and lollipop curveball.
He has gotten us 10 wins and provided knowledge for the young guns. The Twins should thank him for that contribution, eat the rest of his contract, and let him go to Denny’s.
The difference between keeping players in the bank and playing for today is the difference between the Twins and the Marlins I guess…. would you rather have consistent competitiveness (with usual first round playoff exit) or give yourself the chance to win the occasional world series followed by the utterly demoralizing fire sale and 3 or 4 years waiting for new prospects to come up? I don’t know, thats never been the Twins MO.
JD:
“And my logic on the starting rotation is spot-on. The Twins should replace Livan with Liriano, which would provide an instant upgrade. Liriano is the only guy ready to step into the rotation who has No. 1-starter stuff.”
You’re absolutely correct in your assessment. Livan is an absolute liability right now; he brings NOTHING to the table. I challenge anyone to state his supposed strengths…”rotation den-mother?” please…”veteran innings eater?” what good is that when you’re coughing up, on average, 5-6 runs a game? It’s absolute joke how the Twins organization, constantly fellates him and touts his superlatives.
Does Howard have some sort of dislike for Slowey? Earlier he was wanting him in the bullpen for a Liriano call up, now he wants to trade him away. Personally, I think Slowey is our 2nd best pitcher in the majors, and I would be upset to see us trade him. He’s young, cheap and improving.
Dumb and dumber…just what we need, another outfielder.
darren004’s post at 10:40 should be a must read for everyone that thinks playing for the future is always the right thing.
Do it…Just Do IT… Twins need to make the move they have a good chance this year and to land Bay would just make Justin untouchable. To have a right hander back up Justin would be great and the trade that should make this happen should be Black/Delmon/Boof. It needs to happen and if it does I would expect MVP year again from Justin.
Jason Bay is a great hitter but would not really fill a need at this point. If the Twins are unwilling to discuss moving Span or on of the young starters for Beltre, who would fill a HUGE hole at 3B then why would they do so for another DH/OF?
Howard, your intentions are noble regarding your trade idea, but your outcome will be disastrous.
Plain and simple, in addition to “pitching and defense,” the reason the Twins have been so successful in the New Millennium with decent-but-not-great players is because of their left-handed dominance. 70% of the pitchers in the league are right-handed. And, since the most integral players on the Twins roster since 2001 happened to be good left-handed hitting players, we’ve seen success. In the early part of the decade it was Dougie, Korey, Jones, and Ortiz, plus a switch-hitter or two like Guzie. Today, it’s Mauer, Morneau, Kubel, a guy like Span, and switch-hitters like Casilla. (The Twins are only 39-25 since he became the starting 2B, you know? Besides, if this WEREN’T true, how else could Brian Buscher hit over .300 in this league???)
No way do you trade Span. No way in hell! Not only is he a left-handed hitting leadoff hitter in a predominantly right-handed pitching league, but he hits the crap out of lefties at present too. You trade GOMEZ. He’s become a spare part, one that’s been overhyped from the get-to in only a way New Yorkers can overhype a player, and the odds that he becomes a bona fide major league hitter are still against him. Plus, he can’t hit right-handed pitching to save his life anyway.
Span stays. The window of opportunity for the Twins is the next two to three years, regardless of what the ballpark fanatics proclaim (M & M prime), and Span gives you the best chance to win in that window.
As well, Bay might actually HURT you more than Kubel due to those facts.
I’m all for getting a right-handed mashing third baseman, but your idea that getting rid of the lefties at other positions will HELP this team is short-sited. It won’t, and I guarantee you the Twins become a WORSE team for the trade you suggest.
JD - rhetorical question: ask Texas how good their pitching is?
29th out of 30 MLB teams, by .01 points in ERA.
thats why dumb*&$.
Twins are middle of the pack at 16th with 4.29 ERA, texas’ is 5.24. That 1 more run per game is actually a HUGE difference in the grand scheme.
Twin Pitching IMPROVES with a trade of one of the 3 and Liriano’s subsequent call up no matter ANY way you look at it. AND the offense IMPROVES and the defense IMPROVES as well if its Beltre.
How is this bad in any way?
and saying we got rid of pitchers last year so we can’t now I think doesn’t apply. This is a NEW season, a NEW year, PAST IS PAST. What happened then should have no bearing on the NOW. They are contending.
As for a playoff run if they make it. That turns it into a 3 man rotation. Which do you like Better of these combo’s:
Baker, Liriano, Slowey/Blackburn/Perkins
OR
Baker, Slowey/Blackburn/Perkins, and Livan
OR
Baker, Slowey/Blackburn/Perkins, Slowey/Blackburn/Perkins
I think you need some drugs to even out your system if its either of the last 2.
You cannot give up those players for a very overatted Bay. We have too many outfielders already, which would be solved with you trading two outfielders who are both at Bay’s level to get Bay. They would get by far the better end of this deal.
Now, Bobby, THAT is an intelligent trade, if they’d take it.
What are people’s thoughts on Brian Roberts?
The Twins will hopefully hear befroe the deadline today if Casilla is out for the rest of the season. Andy McPhail is the GM for Baltimore and could be willing to work with the Twins.
Span and Roberts at the top would be nice. Plus, Roberts has another year on his current contract and Casilla could move to short next year.
Twins have too many holes to be a true contender and trading 1 starting pitcher for 1 hitter leaving Livan in the rotation will not solve:
1)SS and 2nd
2)8th inning shutdown reliever
3)LIVAN’S spot in rotation!!!
“You cannot give up those players for a very overatted Bay. ”
Jason Bay is a better hitter than Adrian Beltre and is paid less. Look at the numbers. You can argue against Bay on the basis of what we need; you can’t argue against him on the basis of his performance.
Liriano and Baker the one two punch. Perkins, Slowey, the backup 3 and 4 starters, and Livan (Yes he pitched bad yesterday but is a great influence on young starters) 5 clean up.
But to have Span, Joe, Cuddy, Justin, Bay, that would be a sick 12345.
Black,Delmon,Boof for BAY! (and a minor to pick)
As for Delmon Young: you don’t trade 22 year old former #1 picks who are hitting near .300. Even if he hasn’t flashed that power potential yet. thats a move that DOES hurt the FUTURE.
I say no Bay, go for Beltre!
(I have been published as a poet…just for reference…cause that rhymed…LOL…sad kind of…i know)
I think that’s too much to give away, Howard. I’d like to see Delmon here next year. I don’t think this year is showing his full talents for whatever reason. Since I’m no expert like a lot of people, I have no idea what it would take to get Bay. I’d like to see him, but not at that price.
It’d be nice if we could give up Livan, choice of Kubel or Cuddyer, and someone like a Swarzak, Mulvey, Humber or … pick a pitching prospect to get him but I judging from the comments, that doesn’t sound likely.
How about Kubel\Cuddyer, Livan, a pitching prospect and … do we have any OF prospects worth giving up?
Liriano and Baker the one two punch. Perkins, Slowey, the backup 3 and 4 starters, and Livan (Yes he pitched bad yesterday but is a great influence on young starters) 5 clean up.
But to have Span, Joe, Cuddy, Justin, Bay, that would be a sick 12345.
Herbek, Blyleven, Michelle Bachmann and a 12 pack of Hamm’s for Manny.
LET’S GET IT DONE, TWINKS!
if bill s doesnt make a trade im gonna kill him, but if he makes a span, slowey, and kubel trade for an outfielder we dont need, im gonna have to kill him twice…..howard are you kiddin???? you have to be …thats the most ludicrous idea i have heard in a long time. that ranks right up there with the worst proposals ive heard….
Another question, Howard. How come Gomez, the same age as Delmon, gets such a pass, but Delmon gets no love? Higher expectations?
I like Bay. I liked him as a possible pick up in the off season before the Young deal was made. But even then, I liked Young more than Bay and I can’t see that much has changed.
Howard, you’d be willing to give up your current #2 pitcher and 2/3 of your OF for one guy… and you’d still have the infield issues unsolved.
As I posted at the end of the prior thread, if the M’s are simply stuck on raiding the Twins for their best prospects and a front line SP for Beltre, I’d take guys like Mora (who I have to believe the O’s would almost give away to shed the salary) and Aurilia (to provide a short term replacement for Casilla) if it means not losing any major contributor from the major league roster or top tier prospect.
Were loaded with ‘toolsy OF prospects’ mmmmarkiep. Remember, what is it, last 3 or 4 seasons we drafted one in the 1st RD?
Dude I wish we never got a Delmon
I would rather have Edwin Encarnacion from Cincinnati. He’s younger, cheaper and plays a position where we desperately need help.
TwinsGuy, you’re worried about the future and you want Beltre???
The time is now. It’s now, it’s 2009. Don’t listen to the fools spewing about 2010. I mean, look at their roster–BS has screwed up in a way; how do afford all that young talent he’s assembled that will become prime talent two and three years from now? How do afford Baker, Liriano, Blackburn, Perkins, Gomez, Young, Neshek, Casilla, and the lot when you’re already paying Joe, Joe, and Justin huge dollars??? It makes no sense, so forget about the future. That ballpark, like in Pittsburgh and Cincy, will make little difference in the Twins financial approach. It’s a ploy, like every other city.
Bay helps NOW; he helps next year. THIS is what we’re here for, not so we can “contend” eight years from now. Baseball is about TODAY!! (We’ve already had enough “tomorrows” under TR.)
Trading out Young for Bay is an intelligent trade that fixes some things in the line-up.
For god’s sake Cuddyer’s not going anywhere. He’s overpaid and injury prone. No one’s picking up that contract. No one’s biting on Monroe’s .200 average or Boof’s 7 ERA, either. Expect the Twins to stand pat or make a yawner of a deal like the Aurilia deal. I say it on every comment thread: this team is being set up for 2010, and they’re not trading any pieces that they see as being key to that future. The fact that they’re contending is accidental.
I’m not sure I’d trade Kubel or Young for Bay straight up.
I’d trade Gomez, Mulvey, Humber, Guerra for Elsberry, Lester, and …
What is an absolute given, is we DO need a powerful Right handed bat to slide between Joe & Justin. With Joe’s.409 OBP and lack of power this season (granted 25 doubles isn’t necessarily lack of power) we NEED to move him to the #2 spot. Enough of this Nick Punto business the guy is a utility player. Perk and Boof, possibly Kubes would possibly get the ball rolling, but I don’t think Bay is a part of the solution
The most important move without question is replacing Livan with Liriano. That’s the most impactful move by FAR the Twins can make.
(RA just said Livan will start Monday night in Seattle - WTF)!
Secondly, the trade scenario that Howard describes would be a disaster IMO. I would be hestitant to trade Span straight up for Bay. I believe Slowey is our 2nd best pitcher currently so that makes little sense.
Perkins, Cuddy, Boof and a mid level for Bay would be good for all involved.
Twinsnotes: Thanks for making my point. Texas is not in first because its pitching stinks.
The Twins are winning because their pitching has withstood an offseason onslaught. It cannot withstand that onslaught RIGHT NOW because you’re going to have to find a pitcher to fill that fifth spot (assuming you don’t keep Livan there) and that’s not a great option.
In addition, in case you haven’t heard, the Mariners are asking for more than just one of our five starters. They want Span, too, plus prospects. So you’re going to give up arguably our best outfielder plus one of our starters for a 3B? That’s too much.
I’m not — NOT — against a trade. And I wouldn’t be against a trade, even of one of our current starters, if we had the farm system to make up for what we’d lose. We don’t have that.
So be realistic, dumb%$@!
What are people’s thoughts on Brian Roberts?
The Twins asked about Roberts, but the O’s apparently don’t want to trade him.
Though from the sounds of things maybe those talks have loosened?
Like I said elsewhere, the Twins DO have players they can move around to get help, they just don’t have enough to make ALL the moves.
This is mostly because every team is asking about the same 3-4 players.
DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND NEVER WRITE ABOUT THE TWINS AGAIN. THAT TRADE WOULD BE ABSURD.
Lala - read all my posts, I’m VERY VERY for the NOW.
I am screamin inside and on this blog that Bill Smith pull his head out and deal for Beltre. and I have posted many remarks as to why it doesn’t harm the future to do it.(on all 3 twins blogs.)
i woudnt trade slowey even up for another carbon copy of cuddyer …say nothing about adding two regulars…now i am even seeing delmons name??? thats nuts, as delmon is an allstar just growing up as we speak….300 hitter and will start to hit with power in the near future, and that you can count on…future all-star, as we just expected too much from him this year, same as gomez and maybe others, but we do need help and bill smith can get it done with what we have on the farm, as other teams are…what happened to grudzlianak and others …this should be and interesting day, only thing is i am afraid we are all in for a major disappointment with this front office….
Liriano replaces Perkins an upgrade? I don’t think so. Liriano for Livan — yes. Sooner the better
JD,
People do a reasonably good job of not calling other commenters names here, even with the Uppercase Letter Keys. Please contribute to that environment.
One exception: It’s my blog, so if you wanna call me a dumb$#!+, that’s OK.
Brady,
The authorities are coming to seize your SHIFT LOCK.
I was just saying trading delmon DOES hurt the future, as in he shouldn’t be a part of any trade. I also have stated a trade for Bay makes ZERO sense, so don’t do it.
we shouldve had beltre three days ago for christ sake….i think bill smith is just proving hes not the smartest gm in the business….prove me wrong bill
You wanna give up 2/3 or our starting outfielder and one of our prized young starting pitchers for one outfielder?? You are a MORON!! Glad you are not our GM. You’d probably “throw in Mauer too” IDIOT!!
t: it appears you have inside information could you tell us what players teams are asking to make the trades? i would assume all teams don’t ask for the same players.
3 1/2 hours to go, doesn’t look good for adding help!
Howard: Please refer to the comment by TwinsNotesGuy to which I was responding. And no, I don’t think you’re a dum%$@!, even if I don’t really agree with your Bay idea.
Just heard that Livan is getting another start. This is beyond absurd. Would be a bit more understandable if they didn’t have someone capable of doing better. But they most likely do in Liriano. These games all matter and I don’t care about “innings eating” if you have a 5.5 ERA and are giving up hits at a HISTORIC rate. The Twins CAN NOT afford to give away games anymore. Livan served his purpose but it’s time to move on.
That would be the greatest trade in history! For the Pirates! You are lousy at trades!!!! I agree you have to give something to get something, but a young starting pitcher with great control and can keep hitters uneasy by changing speeds! Plus two starting outfielders or a starting outfielder and our starting DH!!!! You better check and see if you took your meds today!
Why the big push to trade Span? He is a better in the outfield then both Young and Gomez. Young has been pretty awkward in left. Gomez can get to most balls, but lacks the ability to make the big catch at times. Not to mention he seems a little soft when it comes to pain. I understand Span needs to prove himself at the plate, but the guy has got passion. I would rather give up Delmon Young.
Span is much further along the Gomez in the outfield. Span should play center and move Gomez to Left.
Dang, with the name calling, you’d think this was the Vikings’ blog.
This fanbase is clearly divided between those that think we should try to win when the chance is there, and those that think this team gets magically better next year and that we should not mortgage the future (while M&M age, and pitchers get expensive and likely hurt….). Can you tell which side I’m on?
I’ve asked this before and nobody gave any good explanation. What stabilizing force and postitive influence does Livan bring in a tangible way?
And if their is a positive infuence how in the world does tht supercede his total futility as a starting pitcher?
I don’t even think TwinsNotesGuy is really a dumb$#@!, I just felt the need to defend myself.
JD - I apoligize, i misread the “And if you think offense will fix all ills, go ask Texas why the heck they’re not in first place with the bats they have” comment.
offense doesn’t fix all ills, pitching is more important, gotcha.
BUT, with this team and in a deal for Beltre, Both of these areas are improved for reasons i’ve stated so I don’t see why they don’t do it.
I’ve been President of the “Delmon was put on this earth to annoy me” club” all season, but I wouldn’t want him gone either. It seems to me that this is a discussion that none of us expected to be having this year- I was prepared for an extended Sept. call-up of a year- let’s see who can play, and watch the kids develop. I still feel that way. I don’t want to lose any of the Slowey/Blackburn/Perkins troika- well, I could live with Perkins leaving… Slowey is really intriguing. I read somewhere, probably an old Bill James Abstract, that if you had a young pitcher that got knocked around half the time, and pitched great half the time that that was a very good sign. His game against the Pale Hose was fabulous. And, assuming that Cuddy will return is good news- is he as good as Jason Bay? Dunno, but I don’t know that Bay is the answer either, especially if it takes a young major league pitcher to get him here. Besides Boston sports radio is assuming that Bay is coming to New England. Frankly with the exception of bringing up Liriano, I’d not be annoyed if the Twins stood pat.
Ridiculous package for Bay. If Cuddyer is healthy, he and Bay are about the same offensively and Cuddyer is a better defensive outfielder with a good arm. Bay is strictly a left fielder and not great defensively. We do need a strong right handed bat but I’d prefer going after Beltre. We don’t need outfielders.
I totally agree with Paul G. Starting Livan Monday is so beyond absurd that there has to be something behind it.
It is a iron clad lock that we lose that game. There is no chance of winning. How can you do that now??!!!!
and the deal I’ve heard Seattle wants for Beltre is 3 guys, consisting of:
- One of Perkins/Slowey/Blackburn/Baker (not gonna be Baker)
-a high level pitching prospect, one that could potentially contribute now or next year, for the Twins I think this means: Duensing, Humber, Mulvey, or Swarzak.
-and a mid-level prospect: Hughes/Valencia/Benson type.
I won’t go into detail again about it, I’ve wrote several overly long posts about it, but a deal like this does not hurt the future like bill smith thinks.
I guess I don’t get the seeming willingness to part with Perkins over someone like Blackburn.
I like the idea of TWO LHPs in the rotation next year and beyond, rather than just one. That alone makes Perkins more valuable to keep than Blackburn if such a choice HAS to be made.
TwinsNotes: no problem.
But would you really trade, say, Blackburn and Span plus one or two other prospects for Beltre? I wouldn’t, and that’s what they’re asking for.
And by the way, my argument isn’t even a “future v. now” issue. It’s a “now v. now,” because we’d have to give up guys who are playing for us now to get that 3B. I love Beltre, but not that much.
On Cuddy: I’ve posted this many times. His best year, he was like 5-6th in the AL for OPS for RF. Every other year he’s been worse than the average RFer. He’s had 1 good year. I do not understand why everyone values him so highly. And, while he has a great arm, his range is mediocre.
As for Young, he was good, but not great in AAA. He was ok last year. He is worse this year than last year. I think he has regressed each of the last three years (as he’s moved up). Clearly, he is young, so there is room for improvement. But, no one knows if he will get better for sure or not. Bay is better than Cuddy and Young combined right now.
Why the hell is Brian Bass still on the major league roster, and Liriano isn’t?
That should be a sign as to what kind of organization the Twins are. Here’s Chicago trading for Griffey and benching Konerko, yet the Twins are afraid to hurt the feelings of Bass or Livan?
Please, this is pathetic.
I totally agree with everthing you posted Mike. Though, I think you have to roll the dice a little with Young. I beleive he may figure it out a bit but I’m fully not sold. On Cuddy, great guy but the stats don’t lie.
I can see them saying, “hey, we believe in Young and his future”. I think that is justifiable. I also think it is justifiable to question his future. So, I agree, you are rolling the dice on him whether you keep him or trade him. I’d be OK with either decision. I feel the same about Gomez, actually. If you could turn Gomez into Beltre (I’m thinking you’d need to put a prospect starter in there), you’d have done a good thing (if you are willing to roll the die on Span being legit now especially).
LaRoche is the guy they should be going after. He won’t be SUPER expensive to get, and he can play the infield. He is another young guy you’d be rolling the dice on, though.
Infield help is what the Twins need. Someone to play 2nd so Punto can play short. Harris does not have the range to play there. Preferably he should play 3rd. He’s okay there. Ideally Harris should be a bat off the bench.
Do NOT give up any of our young staters.
They are the future. Everything starts with the pitching. Bet the Rangers wish they had the Twins young starters to go with all their hitting.
I agree with the take on Gomez. I’m not convinced that he will ever be able to hit a breaking ball. He’s has time to figure it out but his plate discipline is so behind it’s frightful (he’s way, way behind Span at this point).
JD - I wouldn’t do a SP and Span either. But We’ve read conlficting reports on what they want then.
I’ll repost this for my thoughts(you may have already argued against this):
SO, by trading one of the 3 young pitchers (NOT BAKER) right now (and other prospects) we can get potentially:
1. a needed hitter for our lineup, either 2B or 3B now. This doesn’t mess up anything. Casilla is the SS of next year if we get a 2B. We NEED a 3B anyway. offense IMPROVES.
2. AND Liriano gets moved up into the rotation which IMPROVES it no matter which of Blackburn, Slowey or Perkins goes. [Livan isn’t Leav-in]
NEXT YEAR:
Livan will be gone. Baker should have his Ace spot cemented unless Liriano retakes it. Either of those 2 is a GREAT #2. the other two who are not traded are still the same guys, which is a pretty damn good first 4 starters.
Then theres still 3 other guys who were battling for the #5 spot in the rotation in spring training: Mulvey, Humber, Duensing. I’m assuming one of them might be a piece to a trade to get Beltre. So, 2 of those left. There are several teams that would have any of those 3 in their rotation already, and they wouldn’t be any worse than Livan, whom they’d be replacing.
We are NOT losing ANYTHING for the NOW or the FUTURE if the FO decides to pursue a deal like this, and that tells me without a doubt that they SHOULD.”
-We still improve in all needed areas (except bullpen help) if we deal one of those 3 for a Beltre. Offense- RH power bat to protect Morneau, Check. Defense- Gold Glove 3B, Check. Starting Pitching- Liriano gets called up, check.
The only thing they lose is a nice young pitcher whose replaced by an even better young pitcher. And their are guys in the minors who will be as good or better than what Livan has done for us this year in the future.
Now I definitely would prefer they just toss aside Hernandez, but that only improves 1 side of the team when they could improve 3 sides with a move.
i think bill smith is just proving hes not the smartest gm in the business…
Wouldn’t a smart GM be cautious of trading away too much for one guy?
One guy from the starting rotation is a gamble, add on that a guy from the lineup? You’re begging for trouble.
Lets be honest here folks.
We can speculate all we want but when the clocks hits 3 pm, we’ll be in the same spot we were at 3 pm yesterday.
Heh, I agree with jesse.
It’s not just that the Twins need to acquire a solid right handed power hitter to hit between Mauer and Morneau, but that they need to get rid of alot of excess worthless baggage like Cuddyer, Bonser, Hernandez, Bass, Lamb, Everette, and Punto. They need to make room for better players like Liriano, Span, Tolbert, Hughes, Valencia, and Korecky.
I always considered Jason Bay to be one of the worst OF around who played on a regular basis. A disgusting whiffmeister and a mediocre fielder.
If the goal is winning, Span and Cuddyer are both superior to Bay. If the goal is to be entertained by a few more HR, then Bay is better.
Terri Ryan, Billy Smith and Antony cannot make a trade to get Jason Bay because they are Pohlad’s puppet boys and Mr. Pohlad and family are the bosses.
Today’s excitement?!?!! Are you kidding, Howard? I mean, REALLY.
This is the only ridiculous idea you’ve blogged in the last year:
You’d actually give up the capital of “Span, Slowey and their choice of Kubel, Young or Cuddyer” for Bay?
Appearing in the AL, Bay would wind up with Mauer-type numbers except for a low BA and a few more HRs.
And the two problems at SS/2B and 3B would remain unsolved.
This is a non-starter with absolutely no excitement.
TwinsNotes: This is where I don’t agree. Setting aside the idea of what we’d give up for Beltre for a second, you’re effectively saying you’d rather have a better 3B than to replace Livan in the rotation.
I’d rather have Liriano replace Livan.
Does that help our offense? No. But the Twins should look at other options. While Beltre would be a definite improvement at third, that improvement over a Buscher-Harris/Macri platoon would not make up for the fact that you have one pitcher on your team giving up nearly six runs per game.
Maybe Livan has won a good number of games, but his start yesterday was horrific, and it came at home where he is supposedly strongest.
The Twins aren’t going to be able to make a trade for Jason Bay because he’s currently in the middle of talks involving Manny Rameriez.
Good luck breaking into the middle of that triangle.
Cuddyer is vastly over-rated as a hitter and an outfielder. That is why no team will take hime in a trade. It is because the Twins would get virtually nothing for him, and the fans would wonder about the trade because they have been brain washed into thinking he is a good player. Compared to Bay, Cuddyer is clumsy and a rather awkward type of player who makes mental mistakes and frequently falls down whily running. Cuddyer is a big mouth whith a low production rate with runners on base. The Twins should dump him to the minors, probably at AA level.
Where did all the Hank Blaylock talk go?
Matt, Blaylock was placed on the DL retroactive to July 28th.
So he’s out. It’s the same reason Cuddyer won’t be traded. Even if he’s magically off the DL in time for the 3pm deadline, you’re going to have to convince a team that a guy who hasn’t played in a month is worth aquiring.
One way to really enhance comment areas of blogs is to create recommendation counts so that people can see who is and who is not adding value. Essentially, you want a scorecard of sorts for all these comments we’re making.
Of course, there’s a selfish reason The Mouse to make this point. For weeks now (and long before that), I’ve been calling for pulling Livan out of our rotation.
It is completely obvious now that he is not performing at a major league level. He provides one stat after another that would make Bill James wretch (since James was smart enough to know that win-loss records for pitchers are ridiculously overrated).
But T-Mouse is not here to squeak his own horn. T-Mouse is here to say that he welcome ZERO trades by the team on deadline day. That’s right: ZERO. We are a small market team. We don’t need to shoulder high salaries, team-dynamic disruptions, and all for just two months of service. No thanks.
So, I am supportive of no trades ON ONE CONDITION. That our front-office demonstrates the experience and sophistication needed to deliver a contender by taking the following actions:
1) Liriano takes Hernandez’s starting slot;
2) Hernandez goes to long relief;
3) Bass sent down;
4) Macri brought up, Everett sent down;
These are initial moves to strengthen the lineup that do not require external transactions.
T-Mouse in the Hizzouse
That should be a sign as to what kind of organization the Twins are. Here’s Chicago trading for Griffey and benching Konerko, yet the Twins are afraid to hurt the feelings of Bass or Livan?
That is the best thing I’ve read in along time. First of all the Twins aren’t going to make any trades. Second, look, no one wants Hernandez, Monroe, Lamb or Everett. There’s a reason for that, they stink up the joint. Wild Bill just needs to admit he screwed up, eat the contracts and call up Macri and Liriano. Trade Bonser for whatever you can get for him and call up Mulvey to take his place in the pen. Send Bass to Rochester. PLEASE!
i’d rather have that in a sense too, but its not happening til the season is over, Smith and Gardy have made that clear. Which is why my thoughts on the now apply, in my opinion, better than not doing anything.
T-Mouse needs personal scoreboard to validate his blog experience.
Thanks T
why would any self resecting baseball guy want to bring in manny to screw up your team for 2 months? let him blow up the red sox obnoxious nation the rest of the yr.
marlins make a straight trade for bay you’ll be way ahead and have him next yr.
i’d rather have bonds than manny at this point talk about a cancer on a team! manny=cancer.
to go completely off-topic,
Anyone else giddy about Shooter Hunt’s future?
Pitching like the best pitcher taken in draft, and we got him in supplemental round.
I second that emotion, T-Mouse. (Apologies to Smokey and the JGB)
Poor Cuddy. September 2006 he scores 102 runs and drives in 109 for the season. Less than 2 years later, people want to dump him. He’s not even 30 years old. Ha-ha.
mike,
“As for Young, he was good, but not great in AAA. He was ok last year”
I am glad that a 93 RBI season for a 21-yr-old rookie was OK with you because the Twins best EVER for a 21-yr-old rookie was 79.
I’d like Delmon to do “OK” for the next 19 years, because 1860 RBI would put him about 150 ahead of the MLB active career leader.
And that would be “OK”, maybe even Minnesota “nice”.
Poor Cuddy?
he’s getting paid a lot to watch this year…meanwhile, we have no No. 5 hitter (and to think he was supposed to be our No. 3 hitter).
I’m not shedding tears.
Essentially, you want a scorecard of sorts for all these comments we’re making.
While that’s a good idea, a far better system would be to attach registration to the user name.
That way you don’t have people hiding behind multiple user names, and problem users can be banned.
I’ve seen things such as what you suggest in action, and usually what gets up-voted is the knee-jerk or more emotional responses. And 90% of the time it turns into a mouthpiece for the Vocal Majority.
Dare to suggest a certain player isn’t the answer? Dare to disagree that somebody should be shot into the sun? You’ll find yourself quickly down voted.
Where did all the Hank Blaylock talk go?
To the DL, along with Hank himself.
What’s unfortunate about Cuddy is in his first year with a big contract he got hurt in the first week, and hasn’t been able to stay healthy.
That threw a wrench in things to begin with (the Mauer batting 2nd experiement)
If Cuddy had stayed healthy this season, we may have been looking at Mauer/Young/Morneau/Cuddy 2-5 at the moment.
howard if you’re around the humpty-dumpty dome did smith and the fo boys come to work today or take a vacation day?
I don’t buy it, T.
Cuddy was unproductive even when he was healthy and he took a big step back a year ago….so unless you’re claiming (as some have) that the entirety of his 2007-2008 effort is asteriked due to injury, then I guess I’m not ready to assume he would’ve given us the extra bat we’re currently missing.
And if the above scenario is the case, then shame on the Twins for signing him to big money in the offseason.
Jeeze!
We need a RH power hitter and an 8th inning relief pitcher.
The Marlins are about to pick up Manny Ramirez and Arthur Rhodes in one day’s work.
But then the Marlins are big attendance drawing team in a Big Market……..
Never mind!
good call, sane.
Although there’s no chance on God’s green Earth the Twins would make a play for Manny Ramirez and everyone here knows it, regardless of price.
my prediction:
Packers will trade Favre at some point today; NFL will once again steal MLB’s headlines.
I’m still surprised that the Twins have not talked about adding Adam Dunn. The guy would solve the DH problem we have, and will hit for another 20 homeruns. The homer-dome would be quite the stage for him. Plus, the guy has hit 40+ homeruns over the last four seasons and he is not even 30. Talk about upside.
Trade Slowey? That’s nuts, Slowey is going to be a 15 to 18 game winner for the next 10 years. Pitchers like that don’t come along that often. Sure, Bay’s got pop in his bat, but so do lots of players when the pitching coach isn’t telling them to hit to the opposite field. Ask our left fielder, Delmon Young. As soon as he goes to the Red Sox, he’ll crank 35 homers.
Meanwhile, what the Twins need is a shortstop with some pop in his bat, not another outfielder. This team is not that far from success. No time to unload one of our best starting pitchers.
Yeah, I’m fine with the Twins not getting in the Manny sweepstakes. He’s as likely to drag a team down as lift them up.
That said, have to give the Marlins credit for trying to grab the brass ring and it makes me wonder why the Mets and Phillies are so quiet. It’s not like they don’t have some things that could be tweaked. Could be they think the guys they want will pass through waivers and they can get them after the deadline frenzy.
Jason and Jack, great observations / comments. They probably don’t like Dunn because he strikes out “too much”. Of course, that completely ignores his walks (which the Twins don’t seem to value), his OBP, and his slugging percentage.
T-Mouse, I feel I was on the Livanless rotation first (When I compared him to R. Ortiz in early May) but I’m OK with you being the alpha on the Livan Express out of the rotation. Your number 1-3 are spot on, stone cold, lead pipe locks. Number 4 is not good. We need a much better option at thrid.
Wow, Howard I do believe you’ve touched a nerve and folks are passionate about this particular subject.
My 2 cents: I don’t exactly see Bay as a right-handed Mourneau, so I think Howard’s proposed offer pushes the deal’s value significantly in favor of Pittsburgh. Plus, the proposed deal wouldn’t help much with the glut of OF position players (assuming Mr. Bay isn’t receptive to the idea of being an everyday DH). As I weigh the idea of trading serveral starters plus prospects for one slugger, I’d be more attracted to a Beltre deal. However…while I want to win today too, I don’t see the sky falling or the Twins’s glass as being half-empty. The real significant upgrade I see in bringing in a Bay or Beltre is increased HR production and I’m not convinced that giving up a package of players (for example, the type Howard suggested) is worth the extra HRs (you can argue extra RBIs come with the sluggers as well, but if so, I think you should subtract the collective RBI production of the players being dealt to arrive at a net gain or loss).
What does frighten me is the idea of giving up one of the young starters, not because they’re untouchable, but because you don’t have replacements available of the same quality at AAA (I say this assuming Liriano gets called up, and not as a replacement for Slowey/Perkins/Blackburn). As Paul G noted above, Livo’s recent starts suggest he’s becoming a blackhole every time through the rotation (I say this recognizing his positive influence on the young starters). If you trade away one of the young starters, you have exactly the same problem in their rotation spot — a black hole every time through.
Very few folks will like my suggestion but in my very fatherly way, if I were the GM I’d show some patience. There’s nothing like a trading deadline to run up the value of a player far beyond what he’s really worth. I tend to like our lineup with the younger guys developing (compare our June/July to our April/May). If we can’t find a plug-in for a reasonable price (like a Grudzie from KC at 2B), then I would stand pat because I believe we’d be mortgaging our present as well as our future in an effort to make a big splash trading for a slugger right at the deadline. I’m not immune to change, I’m not immune to trades or trading away quality players. I do have an allergy to sacrificing starting position players, good young starting pitchers and prospects for the hope of one impact player in return.
Just to throw it out there below is Jason Bay’s numbers the last 4 years I was wrong on the RBI. Pretty solid but not overwhelming. And he plays in the NL for a team that never completes. There is no preasure. If Boston gets him its a downgrade from Manny (when actually trying). The Twins should just dump Bonser for an IF, bring Liriano up to the BP or make him a starter and wait for Cuddy to come back and hope. You always have a chance with good starting pitching and the Twins have that.
2005 AVE 306 OPB 402 HR 32 RBI 101
2006 AVE 286 OPB 396 HR 35 RBI 109
2007 AVE 247 OPB 327 HR 21 RBI 84
2008 AVE 282 OPB 375 HR 22 RBI 64
jason,
I’m not complaining about passing on Manny.
The only way he would slide head-first into first base would be if Jerry White tripped him.
I’m just complaining about the lack of risk-takers in the Twins FO.
Jason, I won’t blame 2007 on injury. But I am suspect as to if it was part of the slump that sometimes follows a big season.
Like how Ford never got adjusted when the pitchers around the AL did.
Morneau had similiar issues following his breakout, and eventually righted it.
Look at what Casilla has done in 2008 following a pretty embarrassing 2007 showing. Even Span has turned a corner.
Even the pitchers (like Baker, Slowey, and Blackburn) have shown signs of vast improvement.
I’m not going to blame the injury for last year, but I think it’s unfair to dismiss Cuddy’s poor 2008 without considering he didn’t even get a week into it before getting hurt.
That’s also why I’m nervous about Casilla now. Hand injury, likely down for a season…do they try and rush him back or just let it take its course considering he’s going to be a Twin for a while (unless they bring in Roberts)
Span this year makes me think of Cuddy’s breakout 06. What’s going to happen when word gets out about Span? Will he see a similar funk while he adjusts to being pitched differently.
Packers will trade Favre at some point today; NFL will once again steal MLB’s headlines.
If Favre and Manny both get traded today…Sportscenter will rename itself the “Manny and Brett Power Hour”.
BB2N and NFL2N? Forget about getting anything useful out of them.
I actually like Dick Bremaer on TV. He’s a homer but some am I, so we’re on the same page. Bert is not good. He rarely adds insight, has trouble spitting out his words and repeats his same tired cliches (tight rotation, Major League level, etc.) On the Radio, I think Gordo is awesome, one of the best play by play guys in the country. I think Galdden is terrific as an analyst and might be the worst play by play announcer I’ve ever heard. I have no idea what’s happening on the field when he does PBP.
I’m watching the replay of last night’s game……..Livan, Buscher, Bass, Lamb.
My expectation is that all will be on the club tomorrow.
I’ll remain watching the game. It provides positive impetus to my looming righteous anger which will dominate this 1st Annual Castillo Bewitching Day.
Howard, you know better than any of us that Jason Bay to the Twins is a pipe dream.
Score update……….still two-nothin’ bitchsox.
Trade update……nothin’, nothin’, nothin’.
romer,
Your a sick person.
So which is more likely:
Twins aquire a Beltre type player to benefit the lineup and people whine about giving up too much.
- OR -
Twins make a few deals to trim the dead weight such as Livan, Bass, Lamb, and Monroe and everybody whines that its a salary dump.
Honestly, my money’s on the latter. Just because that seems to be SOP around here.
I would get a right handed fill in at 3rd (Mora, Wigginton, Aurilia) and a fill in at 2nd (Grudzielanek or Ellis), and get Liriano in the rotation. Cuddy coming back should also help. That said, we are loaded with OF (Young, Kubel, Span, Cuddyer, Gomez) and I would jump at the chance to move one of them (don’t kid yourself, Cuddyer has zero value right now) if we could make a splash.
T, either way the safe money is bet on considerable whining.
When did RF become a need? We NEED a 3B, and have for several seasons… pick up Beltre! Trade one of the 4 young starters, plus at least one of our better SP prospects… and if any OF’s go, it should be Cuddy. I like the guy, but he seems the most expendable.
When is the deadline 3:00 pm ET?
“Jason Bay to the Twins is a pipe dream”
Jason Bay to the Twins is a jalapena-induced nightmare!
I hope its not real!
“When is the deadline 3:00 pm ET?
4PM ET
3PM CT
1PM PT
“Your a sick person.”
Ha-ha.
But yup, sick and tired of this deja vu experience a la Castillo/Ryan last year.
I have been and remain essentially a Bill Smith supporter going into this week. I’m fearing I’m about to change however.
It’d be easy (acquire Beltre, etc.) for the Twins to compete FOR POST-SEASON this year, next year, and years to come with their 4-core (Baker/Liriano/Slowey/Blackburn) and potent lineup (with the only weakness being Punto’s bat).
It’ll be impossible to do with the aforementioned four players — Livan, Buscher, Bass, Lamb.
T, either way the safe money is bet on considerable whining.
I feel bad for anybody the Twins bring in to try and help out. Because you KNOW if the Twins don’t make the postseason it will be all his fault.
romer, I can’t disagree. Beltre is the guy to get and it can get done. I don’t think it will be easy….we’ll see.
Dougy, Cuddyer is the most expendable at the moment because he’s on the DL.
And no, I don’t think you’d find a team to deal for Cuddy even if he was coming off the DL TODAY.
“…either way the safe money is bet on considerable whining.”
It’s easy to dismiss whining. Harder to dismiss propagand/BS from the FO.
I’ll steer towards constructive criticism and sarcasm.
Some people do whine, especially the one’s that throw out proposterous trade scenario’s and general stupid comments. however, there are very smart people (like Evets) that have seen this organization get so close and not do the right thing. They do a ton of stuff very well. I don’t want them to mortgage their future. I want them to do something that makes a difference. Everyone knows they must.
Harder to dismiss propagand/BS from the FO.
Funny, I thought that the MO of this place was to dismiss anything the FO said…
After all, it was aboslutely preposterous that Bill Smith would come on the air during Spring Training and have the audacity to say this team would be competitive in 2008.
It would be foolish to trade Young. Foolish! I think Bay would be a great pickup and his contract has been called one of the best in baseball, but you don’t trade a kid like Delmon for him. I know, he hasn’t been what everyone expected but give him time. I still think he’s going to be special and if we trade him we’ll be kicking ourselves down the road.
evets said — “romer, I can’t disagree. Beltre is the guy to get and it can get done. I don’t think it will be easy….we’ll see.”
At last! A comrad in arms!!
THANK you.
I would rather have Roberts than Bay, do we really need another outfielder?
Heard Denny Hocking talking, on a Fargo radio station, about how the Twin’s should be working hard at going after Garrett Atkins. That’s a name that hasn’t been brought up, but would seem to be a great fit. Third baseman with good power and average.
DG
I’m just dreaming here but it would be awesome to get both Beltre and Roberts.
“Funny, I thought that the MO of this place was to dismiss anything the FO said…”
OK, I should have said “LEGITIMATELY dismiss”.
say no to Bay! bring in Beltre!
I’ve been begging the Twins to go after Jason Bay on all the non-rube Twins blogs for the last week, and actually blogged about this myself yesterday (obviously you’re cribbing from me, Sinker). But the deal Sinker proposes is insane. I mean, the Pirates would take it in a heartbeat, which is the first clue that it’s insane.
Slowey even up for Bay would be stupid. Slowey is a Grade A keeper — his BB% is half MLB average, his K% a shade better than MLB avg, he’s a pop-up-making machine — and, at 24, is just getting better with no contract blowup for years.
Span is absolutely the real deal. His batted ball breakdown numbers last year in Rochester show that his 2007 hitting line was flukishly lackluster, and while this year’s line will come back to earth a bit, there’s no doubt in my mind that he finally turned the corner in 2007 — it just didn’t show up in rube statistics right away. (A burner like him hitting .224 on groundballs? Impossible, you say [if you know anything about BABIP by BB type]? He got shafted with that number last year! A guy with his speed should hit .300 on GBs.)
I’d trade Carlos Gomez straight up for Bay since the Twins don’t need two centerfielders. Or send Kubel and one of Duensing/Guerra/Humber/Swarzak. The Pirates are on record wanting AN “elite prospect”: Gomez qualifies by most measures and fastball-feasting Kubel plus one of the above might be enough, too. I’d think about Mulvey instead of one of the 4 if that’s what it took.
Besides Bay, they need to go get Andy LaRoche while he is ripe for the picking. Same pitchers to offer, Macri as an organizational placeholder if they want one, Danny Valencia to give ‘em a new legit 3rd baseman in their pipeline. Again, only consider Mulvey v. one of the other four if that’s the dealbreaker.
There’s only an hour left for Mr. Smith to continue dropping ball after ball. If he doesn’t at least get Grudzielanek he’s worthless.
I heard that Bill Smith just made a trade: He traded a stick of Big Red to Terry Ryan for a stick of Juicy Fruit.
He plans on sending the Big Red to AA.
Atkins would require an even greater hall then Beltre, and I’m skeptical of him because of his career home/road splits with Coors.
Heard Denny Hocking talking yesterday on a Fargo radio station about how he hoped the Twin’s were pursuing Garrett Atkins. Better fit than the Seattle 3rd baseman with as much or more power. I haven’t heard Atkin’s name brought up at all.
DG
“…Twin’s should be working hard at going after Garrett Atkins…”
dickg, people around here were calling for Atkins about a month ago.
Fine with me, as long as they don’t give up immediate talent (meaning Perkins). Because have Perkins and Atkins = having Beltre.
Beltre and decent AA pitcher for Perkins and Buscher.
1 hour, people…..
I can’t beleive I’m agreeing so many comments. I usually have to take my alprazolam after reading as many posts as I’ve read today. But Toby makes great points. However, I would put the focus on Beltre and not Bay. Everything else on that post is very solid and right on.
Bill Smith may have been right about the team being competitive but it’s about the only thing he’s gotten right so far. None of his moves made this team better. Unexpected MAJOR improvement by players from within (Span, Casilla, young pitchers and yes, even Punto) and big, much improved years from the M&M boys are the reasons for this year’s success.
I posted this last night re Beltre on LENIII:
Just one more time:
193 Xtrabase hits in the past 3 years for the crap M’s.
25 HR’s a year constant.
90 RBI-per-year man.
Gold glover.
Not old, but a veteran.
Plays almost all the games.
And I posted:
You couldn’t SCRIPT a better player to take over 3B for the Twins.
54 minutes…
How many years and dollars does Beltre have left on his contract? Isn’t that part of the deal? You’d only have him for another year before he’d be looking for bigger dollars AND you’d have to give up young pitching you’re counting on being part of the club for the next 3-4 years without any really obvious help on the horizon? I mean, you have Liriano but that presumes Livan sticks around or Boof goes back in the rotation. Neither of those situations helps keep my lunch down.
I am all for jason bay in a twins uniform, it would provide the right handed power threat that we desperately need. Let’s see if Bill Smith has the brass to pull the trigger. Also i was thinking Boof and Cuddy to the Rockies for Matt Holliday i think that would be a great deal as well. Bottom line is that the twins are almost forced to do something now that the sox got Griffey, if the twins do nothing then i guess they dont mind finishing second in the division for a few years.
Friends, please don’t try to get him for a second-tier shopping list. You know, “Uhhhh, let’s trade Boof, Punto, Lamb, Harris, Livan and Bass for Bay.
Love it, Howard. Many people need this reminder.
There will be no moves.
No moves? Fine, they’ve won a lot of games as is.
If BS can get Holiday for Boof and Cuddy we should send him to the Middle East to negotiate world peace.
I love midwestern apathy.
Jason Bay just got traded to the Rays.
http://trades.mlblogs.com/archives/2008/07/rays_to_acquire_bay.html
To late on Bay, he went to the Rays
The Twins don’t have the positional prospects to aquire these types of guys. Having all the pitching prospects in the league can only go so far. A lot of these teams want a positional and pitching prospect together and the Twins don’t have the guns to do that.
Sounds like that means Manny stays a Red Sock. Pirates must have finally just got fed up with the Red Sox and Marlins trying to rip them off and found a way to tell them both th stuff it.
None of his moves made this team better.
Young.
Also, Bartlett’s not exactly tearing it up over in Tampa. Didn’t he just get off the DL?
Lamb, Everett, Monroe, and even Livan were NEVER expeted to be part of a playoff race. Because (rightfully so) Smith never figured the team wasn’t going to be able to put together a playoff run.
Gomez? A rotation without Santana, Garza, or a healthy Liriano? No Hunter?
This team caught EVERYBODY by surprise, including its own front office.
“How many years and dollars does Beltre have left on his contract?”
Signed through next year for lots of $$$. Too much money if you only consider superficial current analysis.
But the Twins payroll is down some, they’ve promised heretofore unseen larger increases as they move to the 2010 stadium opening, and they won’t get anywhere unless they produce a reasonable amount more of HRs.
All other current trade possibilities for the Twins involve stopgap (though necessary) thinking.
A beltre trade is about 2009 as much as 2008. A permanent fix.
It’s risky to the starting staff. But otherwise, there’s no reasonable expectations for a successful post-season this year and probably next.
And it’s not risky to the payroll.
Did you see the increasing number of people attending this bitchsox series? Do you want a million more people in the Dome next year?
“No moves? Fine, they’ve won a lot of games as is.”
They’ll win lots more….and finish 5-8 games out.
With this excellent young starting staff, they should be shooting for the WS.
T - I might give you Young, but the Twins would have Garza who has legitimate #1 starter potential. As good as their young pitchers have been, I don’t forsee any of them as becoming dominant. Garza has a chance. Also, Span would likely have started the season in LF - would his production have been much different than Young’s? You would have a Kubel/Monroe platoon in right (assuming Cuddy still gets injured). I don’t think Young has helped that much. And I admit to liking the trade at the time. Bartlett wouldn’t be any better or worse than Harris IMO. Who knows - Young may pan out and Gomez has potential, but right now neither trade looks all that great. And didn’t this start with your comment about Smith being right when he said they could compete this year (which would go against your “never expected this” argument)?
“This team caught EVERYBODY by surprise, including its own front office.”
Absolutely correct, T.
But insofar as they’ve come, they’re the real deal.
And the next step (Beltre) is the real deal too.
25 minutes….
Technical trouble with the blogs today again.
The Twins turned down a deal for outfielder Jason Bay of the Pittsburgh Pirates for Bonser, Cuddyer, Bass and Punto when Gardenhire bocked at the idea of trading Punto. Apparently the Twins are in need of infield help and cannot part with the solid hitting Punto.
Gardenhire has no interest in bringing up Francisco Liriano to pitch in the starting rotation or in the bull pen, according to sources. As long as he has the option of putting the versatile Nick Punto into the bullpen or the starting rotation, if one of the starters faulters, there is no need to waist time with experimental minor league pitching senarios.
The Twins received gifts this year:
1) Solid and delightful stalwart pitching from Blackburn/Perkins/Slowey.
2) All-star type performance from Casilla.
3) Renewed performance from that home run contest winner.
4) Young looking awful but now flirting with .300.
Yet, they’re about to stare a gift horse in the mouth.
They got 10 minutes to get Beltre or the like.
They can creatively deal and fix the rest of the holes/problems. But not the holes of 3B (both offense and defense) and power hitting RH batter.
9 minutes……
MLB.com is now saying that the Bay to the Rays deal isn’t done yet, as the Rays are reluctant to deal one of the two names mentioned earlier.
According to sources, Ron Gardenhire is convinced that Nick Punto would be an outstanding starting pitcher. He has said that Punto has an arm like a canon and is fearless when facing opponents. It is said that Mr. Gardenhire believes that Punto’s speed would be an asset in fielding bunts and in covering first base on pitches hit to Morneau, which is extremely important, especially in close games. Gardenhire is known for his analytical assessment of major league talent and will probably have Punto in the lineup for the important stretch run for the division championship by September 1st.
If Smith does nothing, I suggest…
1)Take the free tour of the new stadium right before it opens. And/or…
2) If you want to see a game in the new stadium, mug a guy (preferably one who looks like BS) who’s driving an SUV and steal his tickets.
“Houston to Apollo 13, do you read?”
Communications blackout expected for another 3 minutes.
“Apollo 13, are you there? How’s the ride?”
Funny stuff… mlbtraderumors links to two different writers for the Boston Globe regarding Manny trade possibilities.
One says the 3-way is dead but the Dodgers are in play.
The other says to count out the Dodgers on Manny.
At least we don’t have JoeC and LEN3 publishing directly contradictory “news” about Twins trades.
“There will be no moves.”
The sun ain’t gonna shine anymore
The moon ain’t gonna rise in the sky
Tears are always clouding your eyes
When you’re without love
Lonely
Without you
Baby
Oh, I need you
I can’t go on
Emptiness is the place you’re in
Nothing to lose, but no more to win
The sun ain’t gonna shine anymore
The moon ain’t gonna rise in the sky
Tears are always clouding your eyes…..
I don’t think Punto would be a very good pitcher mainly because he is not very big and has no experience. Besides, don’t they want him to be an infielder? Gardenhire may have a secret weapon though, if Punto really is a great pitcher. Has anybody seen him pitch or warm up before the games as a pitcher in the bullpen? Why are they waiting until September to put him in the rotation if he is that good? It would be great if we get to see him start against division rivals. Go Twins Go.
“Apollo 13, this is Houston. Do you read?”
“Kay says:
July 30th, 2008 at 10:15 am
Some good ideas here, but I am afraid that our FO is going to sit on its hands again or do some nothing mini-move or get some washed-up cheap vet.”
Sigh.
What the…???
The middle finger on both my hands is twitching. This ain’t the way to win a space race.
Such anticipated excitement….
Reminds me of the true Richard Prior story he told about his dad who died in a whore house:
“He came and he went at the same time.”
And now we sit and wait to see what sort of interesting things about last-minute deals around the league float out over the next hour or so.
Gardenhire wants to keep Punto in order to put him in the starting rotation down the stretch. Therefore, he reasons, no trade.
Don’t let Brett Favre f-ck up the Vikings!
He’a a plant!
He’s a double agent!
Here’s an idea for the pitching rotation. Why don’t the Twins go to a nine man rotation plan. For example:
1. Hernandez
2. Bonser
3. Punto
4. Blackburn
5. Baker
6. Slowey
7. Perkins
8. Guerrier
9. Bass
Billy Smith = Terry Ryan, as some of us have stated all along. Seriously, did anyone really believe things would be different this time?
I think Punto should be given a chance to pitch in the starting rotation down the stretch. It might give the other pitchers a chance to rest and improve their endurance. Punto is a natural athlete who can pitch with either arm, which gives him a big advantage against teams like the Yankees and Res Sox. Putting Nick Punto in the starting rotation would also save Liriano from being brought up to the majors before he is ready.
“Billy Smith = Terry Ryan, as some of us have stated all along. Seriously, did anyone really believe things would be different this time?”
Nope. I didn’t. Especially since TR was in the “huddle” with BS.
Manny to the Dodgers. Bay to the Red Sox.
Pirates finally get their load: LaRoche and Morris from the Dodgers, Moss and Hansen from the Red Sox.
dangit. looks like LaRoch is not going to be a Twin any time soon. Dangit.
Wow, the Manny news….
Still possible to run Beltre through waivers and make a trade. But not enough time to think and analyze right now.
Meanwhile NASA is under a news blackout. Just before they announced that, they reassured the nation that Tom Hanks was NOT on board. So go ahead and keep buying those tickets
“Why don’t the Twins go to a nine man rotation plan.”
Ha-ha, simon! You made my day. Kudos and thanks.
Lastly… HOWARD, don’t think twice it’s all right, ’cause I luv ya.
But everytime I log on and have to read your title “Today’s excitement: Let’s get Jason Bay” I cringe and want to cut your beard off.
Hey, there’s a game tonight.
:)>
We’re so screwed.
After reading some of these comments. Im glad my name is not Bill Smith(BS) Today being Aug.1st we have exactly two months left for this season. Yes Im disappointed no trade was made.Many comments were made concerning Kevin Slowey(good and bad)seems he falls short of having a knock out pitch for strike three calls.Well if you noticed in last nights game baker did not have one either when he gave Jermaine Dye a pitch he sent over the left field fence. Now believe this or not but the MN Twins have one of the most coveted pitching staff(starters)in the Majors today. their minor league club have some pitching but not enough to help out the Twins if they did trade one or two starters.Hey I am no fan of Mr. BS but just this one time Im going to say that making no trade is the best thing that could have happend for this club…..
