Those are your FIRST-PLACE Twins I’m talking about
Posted on August 4th, 2008 – 8:30 AMBy Howard
Needless to say, where you’re talking baseball today at work or with your posse or with the stranger sitting next to you on the light rail or at the bar, you need to refer to the local baseball team as “the first-place Twins.” As in, “Liriano looked pretty good, and I think it was just the right time for the first-place Twins to summon his butt from Rochester.”
Or: “That was a pretty odd looking lineup out there Sunday, but there was enough offense there for the first-place Twins to win.”
Or: “If the first-place Twins remain in first place, you think Morneau has a shot at MVP? And does it really matter?”
Or: “Now that the first-place Twins have taken care of last-place Cleveland, it’s on to Seattle for three games against the last-place Mariners. You think Carlos Silva is gonna be jealous?”
Or: “The middle infield is going to have to work together a bit better if the first-place Twins are gonna remain in first place.”
Or: Well, you get the idea.
And that how I expect you to refer to them in the comments section, OK?
Had an interesting time on Saturday at the Dome. Before the game, I was MC for a panel discussion on Macalester College Alumni Night. We had Dave St. Peter, Clark Griffith and Josh Ortiz (the first-place Twins’ Community Service Coordinator and a former Macalester baseball player) at the front of the room, and Dave was quick to acknowledge the incredible surprise that the season has brought, an admission that others in the organization have been a bit slower to make. By the way, Clark said he’s sure the first-place Twins are going to win the division.
Dave noted that it was supposed to be a season for the young players to learn what it takes to play in the majors and for management to figure out exactly what kind of talent it had acquired and developed. Yet here’s that group of talent, a half-game ahead of the White Sox and atop the AL Central. No Johan. No Torii. No problem. ESPN’s Tim Kurkjian was talking about the first-place Twins as the division’s team to beat this weekend, even before the takeover too place.
That Joe Mauer is among the league batting leaders and somehow also leads the AL in batting against left-handed pitchers with a .366 average couldn’t have been foreseen based on last season’s health struggles, and should at some point quiet the critics who get all upset when Gardy sneaks him an unexpected day off, as he did Sunday.
I’d respectfully suggest to those folks that they cut their grass while wearing full catcher’s gear (preferably a hilly yard) and watching out for an active toddler. I know the neighbors and drive-bys will look at you funny, but that’s the best thing I can think of to approximate the rigors of catching game after game. This isn’t about Mauer worship. It’s simply acknowledging that most teams would kill for a .260-hitting catcher who runs the game behind the plate as well as Mauer.
(Of course, if you want to wonder and fuss a bit why Redmond bats third when he fills in for Mauer, you’ll get no argument from me.)
And Morneau continues to make an MVP case for himself, although it’s hard for me to imagine him outpolling A-Rod or Josh Hamilton at this point — and I hardly think it matters. I’m assuming that Brian Buscher keeps Morneau supplied with energy drinks and backbacon for handling the errant throws that come across from third base more frequently than they should. (Has anyone else noticed that Mike Lamb, who filled in for Morneau at first in the finale, has 5 hits in 12 at-bats over his last three starts — including two doubles and a triple?)
By the way, the Morneau/Gold Glove hype is another silly distraction. Morneau has made himself into a very, very good first baseman. But the honor will rightfully belong to Kevin Youkilis for as long into the millennium as he remains so solid. No shame is having the best hitting/second or third best fielding first baseman in the league. Yes, players tend to get Gold Gloves based on reputation sometimes more than their actual performance in a season, but Youkilis is that good. (By the way, the award is voted on by managers and coaches, not them ignorant media guys.)
The immediate challenge for the first-place Twins is to get their road stuff together. You can find the numbers elsewhere, but this is a team whose road performance has paled in most ways when compared to how they’ve played at the Dome. They have 30 games left on the road and 21 at home, and the five-under road record (skewed by the 0-6 at Fenway and Yankee Stadium) needs to be bettered. A week’s worth of games in Seattle and Kansas City should help.
And, finally, a word about the return of Francisco Liriano. He was certainly good enough to handle Cleveland, a team that seems to have an aversion to scoring runs. While he didn’t throw enough strikes and was too often working from behind in the count, the good news was that he was wild low and didn’t give in or get frustrated. Redmond also did a good job of keeping him focused in the tougher going.
There’s room for him to get better. And Dick’n'Bert made an astute point during the telecast, when they pointed out that it’s unfair to compare the pitcher we saw Sunday to the Liriano of 2006. For now, first-place Twins fans should feel good about the comparison between Liriano and Livan Hernandez, the pitcher he replaced in the rotation.
West Coast baseball tonight. Take a nap! As for me, I gotta go to ice my mousing arm from using the italics button to write about the first-place Twins.
other people are here too
171 Responses to "Those are your FIRST-PLACE Twins I’m talking about"
Good point, Howard on Liriano’s ‘wild low’ pitches. If those would have been up in the zone I can almost guarantee some of those balls would have ended up in the left field seats.
Liriano! First-place Twins!
well done boys… another 28 wins until I change my moniker!!
Yeah, I think people are making more out of Liriano’s performance than was really there. Except for the first two innings, he was missing a LOT of pitches. Yes, they were low…but had we been playing any team other than Cleveland, we could still be the second place Twins.
But hey, we didn’t, we won, and now we’re the FIRST PLACE Twins. I’ll take it!
First Place Twins are looking pretty good. HOWEVER, I have some minor complaints. And this one is on the fans.
I went to 2 games this week and both times I left thinking that there is no way we can sustain a division lead if there is no energy in the crowd. Wednesday night was awful. Granted Livan was pitching. But the game that annoyed me the most was Saturday night. Slowey was rolling with more strikeouts than usual (more homers too) but still when he got to 2 strikes on a batter, there was no energy, no noise. Myself and co-rubes were so annoyed we just started clapping and yelling ourselves out in CF. I have no proof of this assessment, but I tend to believe that if you have home field advantage, USE IT. My annoyance was only elevated by the “fake fans” trying to do the wave in the 2ND INNING!!!
roto the Twins gave the crowd nothing to cheer about Saturday they scored 1 run and had no life
Welcome to the bandwagon folks. Some of you more astute and regular commentors will recall that Carlos G told you all to relax back in April; that the (now first place) Twins would be fine; the (now first place) Twins would be better in June than April and better in August than June.
Well, I hate to say I told you so (actually I kind of enjoy it, but it seems like everyone always makes that aw shucks kind of comment here in MN), but these first place Twins are good. They were good, but not in sync earlier in the year. They are good now, but not good enough to win the World Series today. Of course, the first place Twins don’t have to compete for the World Series for another couple of months… so, they might be good enough then.
My timeline for the World Series was 2010 with the youth on the first place Twins. You do know that Gomez and DY are 22, right?
But, if we can make playoffs this year, sweet! Just hate to see all the gnashing of teeth and possible cardio issues if the first place Twins drop a couple of series on this road trip and fall out of first place.
Enjoy it friends. Your First Place MN Twins have been fun to watch all year.
P.S. Magic number over the not-first-place Whities is 52.
I saw the view from Section 226 on Friday night…the announced crowd was 33,000 but I thought it was more like 27,000….anyway, I agree that Twins fans are a mild bunch overall; maybe next time I’ll have to hang out in the homerun porch, even though I hate the view from there.
“First place” Twins has a nice ring to it, and it is about time (err, by that I mean, it’s about time we finally got over the hump and captured first place AND it’s about time Liriano was called back up).
In reading Howard’s entry, I felt the need to remind folks that we’re in first place for now–there’s still nearly two months to go. So while it’s fun to celebrate, I think we all know this thing is far from over, even with the Ozzie Antics taking over in Chicago.
I hope Eric Wedge enjoys his last two months managing for Cleveland, because I doubt he’ll be back in 2009.
Count me in as shocked that the Twins pulled the trigger on Monroe and called-up Randy Ruiz. I can’t say I’m bothered by this move at all, it just seemed un-Twins like to cut bait with Monroe, even though he has been struggling lately. Hopefully Ruiz is ready for this moment.
Two concerns at this point:
1. I continue to question whether or not this is a playoff bullpen. Other than Nathan, we’re still not seeing proof that these guys can get it done in big time situations against big time opponents. I suspect we’ll have more answers to that question when the Twins play the Yankees and Angels later this month…
2. While Nick Punto has been a pleasant surprise this season (yea, I said it), I still am not buying him as our No. 2 hitter. Sooner or later, that’s going to bite us I suspect.
Other than that, things are looking pretty Golden at the moment, however…that could change on a dime…the Twins might lose 5 straight and the Vikes’ might trade for Brett Favre. Until such time, I’m a happy man.
See what I’m talking about, already we have Carlos G saying it’s over.
Check your schedule, Carlos…two months left, my friend.
First Place Twins. It sounds even better saying that to the Mets fans in my office! He he!!
And while that is completely true FIRE, there was still nothing in the early innings when it was a close game. Granted they did erupt after Punto laid down the 3rd consecutive bunt.
My beef is that pitchers feed off of the energy and when Slowey is consistently getting 2 strikes, the fans should make some noise and possibly get Slowey’s adrenaline up to blow one past the hitter or spot an unhittable pitch. I’ve heard Bert say it multiple times that he always fed off of the noise.
Slowly would need a crowd the size of NY City to get enough energy to blow away a hitter..
it could have been like at a concert when noone gives any attention to the warm-up act everyone was gearing up for Liriano…
I think everyone’s making too much out of the first place Twins’ road record. I realize it’s a bigger deal because they have so many road games coming up thanks to my fellow Republicans invading the Twin Cities in a few weeks, but still… 5 games below .500? That’s nothin!
The Rays are 5 under. Red Sox are 8 under. Yankees are 1 over .500 (which the first place Twins would be, too, if we could just pretend those 2 series at Fenway and Historic Yankee Stadium never happened). White Sox are 7 under and the Kittycats 8 under.
Granted, Torii’s Angels are 17 games OVER .500 on the road… that’s 7 more above .500 than they are at home!! (See? it’s GOOD that the first place Twins are going to be playing them in Anaheim rather than in the Dome!) 17 above on the road… that’s just sick.
The first place Twins will swap spots with the BitchSox here and there over the course of this month, but I’ll be shocked if they implode just because they’ve got to go on the road for a few games. Half of these guys have spent most of the last 5 years riding around the country on buses to play baseball. A couple of 3 hour flights here and there isn’t going to phase them.
Oh, Howard… about Lamb… yeah I have noticed he’s been coming through with the bat. Those extra base hits he’s ripped to the RF corner remind me of what I saw him doing in Spring Training. Sure would have been nice to see it continue in to April, but I’ll take them in August and September.
Assuming Casilla is not coming back, I’m hopeful the infield will look like this by the end of the season:
Starters:
1B: Morneau
2B: Tolbert
3B: Cuddyer
SS: Punto
Reserves:
Harris, Buscher
Working at Burger King:
Everett, Lamb
Any objections?
I am thinking Lamb is going to get more starts at 3rd soon. Buscher is just so awful in the field.
The big question coming up at the end of the week….what are the Twins going to do when CUddy comes back to the lineup!
a couple of things about our first place Minnesota Twins. I have more confidence in Liriano at 70 percent than Livan at 100 percent. As for fans, I was at the game on Saturday and it seemed like a sleepfest until the three bunts-in-a-row sequence by Go-go, Span and Punto. I hope the fans start realizing that each game is important from here on out. Lastly, I wish we could go back and read the blog posts from January, February, and March. Very few thought we would be writing “First Place” and “Minnesota Twins” in the same sentence.
AJ, I agree with 1B. It ends there though. As good as Tolbert looked early in the season, I just don’t think he should slip in and be a starter right away. He is best used in a platoon INF role. Punto should be starting, but at 2nd. I still like Harris at SS. His D is questionable, but he has been a doubles machine. Cuddy at 3rd is just never going to happen. He hasn’t played there in 3 years, and his cannon in RF is too valuable.
I have no issue with Everett and Lamb working at BK. In fact, I was just at one, service was awful. I’d imagine Lamb, assuming he wears a beardnet, would be a solid fry cook.
Good point about Liriano throwing low in the zone Howard. When he was up in the zone the ball was un-hittable. He did a great job kepping the ball down in the strike zone.
AaronK:
They’ll have 4 major-league quality outfielders to choose from on any given day. It beats having to stick Tyner or White out there, right?
My guess: Span, CF; Punto, 2B; Mauer, C; Morneau, 1B; Cuddyer, RF; Kubel, DH; Young, LF; Buscher/Lamb, 3B; Harris, SS.
That’s against righties. Against lefties, put Cuddyer at DH, Gomez at CF, Span in RF, Harris at 3B and Everett at SS (for now) — unless you play Buscher or Lamb at 3B against a lefty and keep Harris at SS.
There are other options: Span in LF and Cuddyer in RF, for example.
As I was stewing last week about the lack of a move at the trade deadline, I realized that there it was a minor miracle that I even still cared at this point in the season.
It’s been a really fun season so far, and I am very proud of the FIRST PLACE Twins.
Ruiz is a benchwarmer called up to hold a spot until Cuddy gets back. The idea being they can just send him back no problem when that happens.
Punto batting 2nd will likely last a bit long. Either until we hear more about Casilla or until Gomez shows he’s got his confidence back and can maybe slot in between Span and Mauer.
Or (stretch) Seattle finally realizes they’re pisssing off the entire MLB and starts making reasonable demands. Beltre goes into the lineup and perhaps Mauer and Morneau slide up a spot each to accomodate? (Or Beltre goes between them and Mauer slides up)
Who knows?
I’m enjoying the first-place Twins because this has been a VERY surprising run. The weak offense from earlier this season has shown a lot of life the last few months, and the FO is cutting bait with some of the stopgap signings that are now that the guys in AAA are standing up and shouting “Hey we don’t suck now!”
I’m joking going to refer to Liriano as the White Knight for a while, mostly because I want to see if he’s truly back. He had a few things that made me nervous (walks, high pitch count), but he was able to get out of some jams with the help of his defense and then sometimes with his own talent. Not 2006 Liriano, but certainly an upgrade over early 2008 Liriano.
And yeah, there’s still two months left…but considering at least three times now some of the Vocal Majority of have declared this season dead in the water, it’s cool to see them pulling this off.
Big road trip, as they’re facing a few last place teams. It’d be nice to them win both series and come home with a 4-2 record. KC has me nervous, if only because the series with Chicago could’ve fired them up.
No idea what to expect from Seattle. Just hope the Twins don’t go in there and think they’re going to sleepwalk through that series like they thought going into the Jays and O’s series…
Roto - I was at Saturday’s game also and agree that the crowd was pretty quiet. But it’s not like the team gave them a whole lot to be excited about.
I was also at Thursday’s game, and I have to say it was one of the loudest, rowdiest, drunkest Twins crowds I’ve seen.
Regarding Cuddy coming back: I think it’s pretty obvious - Ruiz will go back to AAA.
As much as Bert Blyleven annoys me, he did a good job of breaking down Liriano’s mechanics during yesterday’s game and explaining how they affected his command. Liriano was obviously jacked up, and he was fortunate that the putrid Cleveland lineup couldn’t do anything with his mistakes. Hopefully he can clean things up in his next start. The fact that it’s on the road against the Royals should help with that.
Howard,
I agree we are in good shape with 4 quality OFs…in reality we have Kubel as a decent option as well.
However, I really like the defensive OF we have with Young, GoGo, and Span. Not to mention, all of them have hit pretty well during the 2nd half. GoGo is starting to answer the challenge of Span and Young has been much better. Plus the team is red hot with the 3 of them playing everyday.
I just don’t want to see any of the young kids on the bench except for the occasional day off. They are all improving with experience and they are helping us win on top of it. Not to mention they bring energy to each other.
I know it won’t happen, but you wonder if Cuddy can move back into the infield at 3rd. He could still move to the OF if needed. I know the theory is he can’t hit while playing 3rd, but he is a much more mature and experienced player now. Maybe the Twins will atleast explore this option in the offseason so Cuddy can have a full camp to prepare.
These guys are all good and very young, the Twins gotta find a way to get them all in the lineup on a regular basis.
Bullpen, bullpen, bullpen…it’s going to decide it.
I think everyone’s making too much out of the first place Twins’ road record.
it’s not the record per se, which is the problem for the first place Twins, it is the performance, esp. of the pitching staff:
ERA home: 3.29 road: 5.52 for the Twins vs. MLB average ERA home: 3.99, road: 4.53. And it on the pitchers and not the defense because home BABIP is .288 where road BABIP is .302 (which should translate to ERA value differences close to those of league average and not almost 2.5 runs more on the road.) For some reason the pitching staff is not prepared as well as the average MLB team when away (I assume that their stuff is the same)… This one is on Andy IMHO and he better fix it soon.
Bullpen, bullpen, bullpen…it’s going to decide it.
———————————-
Definitely.
“Bullpen, bullpen, bullpen…it’s going to decide it.”
Absolutely. Which is why Reyes, Boof, Bass scares the crap out of me. The only 2 I am comfortable with are Nathan and Guerrier.
Guerrier has only been good (not great). He looked just as futile against the Red Sox and Yankees as the other guys did.
Jason,
I don’t know what you meant by saying that “already we have Carlos G saying it’s over”.
I can’t see that in my words or even between the lines. What did I say that made you think that?
Crain and Guerrier are do a decent job but make me very nervous. We will see if they can hold up. I definitely don’t feel comfortable turning over a lead of 2 runs or less to the bullpen. Should’ve made a move to get someone else out there.
Aaronk..I like Delmon, but there is no way you like him defensively, its just not possible.
well, Carlos, you basically came out with the “I told you so” speech….all I’m saying is you might want to save that one for when and if the Twins actually clinch the division.
Did anyone else think the strike zone was really small yesterday? It seemed to me that Liriano had some pitches that were strikes or really really close but they were called balls. I couldn’t tell if it was my biased eyes or if that was really happening.
T,
In watching Liriano yesterday, one thing he can do is strike people out when he has to. However, when he got that double play ball, it looked to me like he pitched in order to induce that double play ball.
Which makes me wonder, are we getting a Liriano that can not only strike people out at crucial times, but also one that can actually purpose pitch?
If so, we are probably looking at Liriano 2.0.
Lamb has been buried on the bench, rightfully so, because he just wasn’t hitting. If Lamb’s bat comes around, with as bad as Buscher’s throws are to first, Buscher could wind up getting sent down and we’ll see Harris/Lamb sharing third base duties, when Cuddyer comes back.
Then, when Casilla comes back, Everett is DFA.
I thought the First Place Twins would contend this year. I never expected, though, that the First Place Twins would be the First Place Twins in August….
I was so mad at Punto when he slid in head first yesterday… As much as people like to rag on PUNTO, we can ill afford him to get injured right now.
The coach should have jumped down his throat after that move!
thrylos, no doubt the ERAs have been better at home. Perkins is the only starter who seems to have about the same ERA regardless of where he pitches.
Livan’s 7.22 road ERA (compared with 4.26 at home) doesn’t help the staff numbers, though.
Among the first place Twins’ starting pitchers, only Slowey’s road ERA is above the league average (and his is only 4.70, so not MUCH above average). It’s just that they’ve been better than average at home.
The bullpen has definitely had a few meltdowns on the road, however. Those need to stop.
Ben, He is not as bad defensively as it may appear. He has made a few mistakes and doesn’t look smooth, but he covers a lot of ground. He gets to a lot of balls most LF’s don’t. Plus his arm is outstanding.
Truth is, next year they need to move Span to LF and Young back to RF. He would be outstanding in right field and Span would have all that extra room to run balls down.
Howard,
I think Dave St. Peter’s statement captures the situation in a nutshell.
I’m enjoying the run, yet I’m not sure what they have for sure.
Also, telling in that comment is something I have come to believe. Major League FO and scouts have got to be very good at assessing the potential of players. I think they are just as much in the dark as the fans are as to IF or WHEN that potential will actually materialize.
Regards,
“The coach should have jumped down his throat after that move!”
Unfortunately, our coach can rant on and on to an umpire to no avail other than to make himself look like an idiot, but he can’t get his own team to show some discipline, like not bunting with 2 strikes, not sliding head-first into 1B, not hitting the cutoff man, etc.
The same mental and dumb mistakes keep getting made over and over and it appears no one in a position of authority does anything to stop it.
By the way, no Kubel bashing after that futile attempt on that fly ball in the outfield yesterday?
Last year, on a Sunday afternoon, Lew Ford did the same thing on a ball hit by Prince Fielder and we never heard the end of it…
“The fact that it’s on the road against the Royals should help with that.”
Were you not watching the Royals this weekend?
They scored 200 runs against the FIRST PLACE CHICAGO WHITE SOX!
And please don’t start telling that the NOW SECOND PLACE CHICAGO WHITE SOX don’t have much pitching. I’m not buying it!
reposting from JoeC’s blog to catch some more of your thoughts:
“TwinsNotesGuy says:
August 4th, 2008 at 7:26 am
Liriano observations from a guy at the game yesterday:
-Liriano had great stuff but was still inconsistent.
-Fastball: 89-91 in the first few innings but pumped it up to 91-93 later. Speed was inconsitent though, 89 one pitch, 93 the next. Can probably attribute this to different fastball variations though, he was throwing what looked like straight fastballs, sinkers, cutters, and 2 seamers, tons of movement on his fastballs, also contributing to his spotty control of the pitch during the game.
-Slider: Threw some devastators (Ben Francisco’s 1st at bat comes to mind), but also some not so much. Inconsistent with this pitch as well. One would break a ridiculous amount, the next would hang, luckily no one was able to take advantage. Can’t argue with anyone who says its a hard pitch to hit though. saw them at 82-87 on the domes gun.
-Changeup: Honestly, I thought this was his best pitch of the night as far as control is concerned. When he was struggling to locate his fastball Redmond made him throw more of these, at one point about 4 of them in a row. Movement was a little inconsistent as well, but I thought several of these had an extremely sharp down and away break and honestly I thought it looked more impressive movement wise than many of his sliders. was 81-83 on the gun.
-Great to see Liriano back in a Twin uniform again. He said he was more nervous pitching in this game than he was in any as a rook, and I think some of that contributed to his spotty command, but that confidence will come back in no time with some more outings like this.
Do not doubt this kid, he’s going to be a force for us in the playoff push.
like I said before, speeds were a little inconsistent, but I hope this is the Twins coaches way of ‘teaching him to pitch’ and not throw after coming back from a major surgery. Can’t blow away hitters all the time anymore, so do more with what you have. Liriano changing speeds will only add to his freakish pitch ability though.
go twins!”
-As for someone who was wondering about a small strike zone, I don’t think it was small at all and heres why. starting in the third inning and the innings after Liriano was missing BADLY(for the most part inside) with his fastball. When a pitcher is that far off he’s not going to get any close calls. Its all about consistency with pitches when it comes to an umpires strike zone, and he was lacking that in the later innings. With that said, there definitely were a few pitches that were arguable, but you can’t complain about them when he wasn’t getting close with a lot of them. on at least 3 seperate occassions I wathced Liriano get down 3-0 by missing inside and not being any closer than 6 inches off the plate. He settled on those counts for the most part and got a couple outs out of them, but I can’t give credibility to complaining about a small strike zone for those reasons.
The pitching road splits are bad… but since Livan’s were by far the most extreme, we shouldn’t be that bad.
Hopefully 6 games in Seattle will help the road record.
Jason,
OK, thanks for clarifying. But, I never said the Twins would win it all or even that they would win the division this year. My “I told you so” speech is simply pointing out that the bandwagon was empty in April when I tried to rally the blog troops with the frequent posts to relax and that we would get better. 2010 has always been my goal. I predicted 85-86 wins this year, even in April when most people were falling back to 70.
But, it was all meant in good fun. I am happy the fans are feeling good again and expectations are soaring. I fear that could change with a couple of bad series… that seems to be the nature of so many Twins fans. Shoot, it even changes in the middle of a game with a lot of folks.
So, no, I am not anointing any crowns to the Twins yet, but I am saying they are performing closer to what I predicted in April than what most people thought they would be doing at this time of the year and trying to get people to relax and enjoy the game, regardless of whether we are in first, second, or last place.
For those that hate Delmon in the field…he has the 2nd most plays made outside of the standard zone…only Carl Crawford has more in LF. He is ranked 4th overall for zone rating.
Other than a few bad plays, KC comes to mind, he has been very good.
The sox have an ERA over 6 since the break.
And seriously, Punto’s false husle into first yesterday could have forced the Twins to make a move that they don’t need to make…. He can’t put himself at risk for an injury giving how thin we are up the middle.
well, plus Carlos, I don’t think the bandwagon was totally empty…there was a lot of optimism in April as well….but there were also reasons to be concerned as players were getting injured left and right and Liriano wasn’t working…
but this isn’t a huge comeback story…the Twins have been playing .580 baseball pretty much the entire season…thus, I don’t see this as bandwagon jumping, necessarily.
I’m just happy the Twins are relevant in August…I am among the die-hards that would watch either way, but it’s a heck of a lot more fun when they’re involved in a pennant race!
Delmon Young isn’t that bad at all, he’s just criticized over and over because it’s the bandwagon thing to do. I was at the dome Friday when he made that error (admittedly very bad play) and the crowd let him have it. However, over the course of the season Carlos Gomez has probably made at least twice as many dumb plays. Gomez is to the point where he’s costing us at-bats and production almost every game.
sane, I’m not going to say the first place Twins should take the Royals lightly. You can’t take ANY major league team lightly, especially at their place.
But I watched a couple of those Sox/Royal games on the tube and Chicago’s pitching was dreadful. Hanging breaking balls and fastballs over the center of the plate… stuff you just shouldn’t see major league pitchers do. I know they’re looking forward to getting Linebrink back soon and that may help them, but it has been amazing how quickly that staff has gone from being one of the best in the league to one where calling them “mediocre” is being generous.
I can’t believe Kenny Williams is going to let that situation go on much longer.
I think everybody needs to calm down on Delmon. I think a lot of people are pidgeon-holing him for the reputation they heard about him having down in Tampa Bay.
Tell me, at ANY point in this season has he resembled what you heard about him down there relative to the Twins?
I don’t think he has.
Cut the guy a break.
Last year, on a Sunday afternoon, Lew Ford did the same thing on a ball hit by Prince Fielder and we never heard the end of it…
Two key differences:
1. Kubel’s misplay didn’t result in the fattest player in all of MLB circling the bases for a inside the park homer that tied the game.
2. Kubel is an otherwise productive player who is in the middle of a good season and has a bright future with the team. Lew Ford hadn’t been relevant for three seasons and was living off Gardy’s man-crush and the fact that fans liked yelling “LEEWWWWWWW” every time he came to bat.
In other words, one has nothing to do with the other.
I agree with giving Delmon a little breathing room here..
He has definitely had a few mental lapses here and there in the field but frankly, I’ll take him out there ANY day over Kubel. He has MUCH more natural ability and range and will get better and better as he improves reading balls off the bat.
I really don’t see us making room in the Infield to play Cuddy there at all. I suppose in an emergency, he’d be a great guy to fill in but it’s not going to be a move for any playing time for him and they just won’t sit a guy of his caliber on the bench when he’s healthy.
Buscher has improved at 3B but he’s still not a great fielder but I’m at least impressed with his attitude and effort. I do like having Lamb around - and did even when he was going through the hitting slump - because he definitely provides a solid CI fielding option. I think he is likely to see more playing time with Punto needed at 2B for awhile. If & When Casilla is back, it may diminish again but I like having him as a good bench option.
Peter, I have to take issue with your response…but I will note for the record (as most of you know) that I was a big Lew supporter…
“Kubel is an otherwise productive player who is in the middle of a good season and has a bright future with the team.”
Kubel is hitting .260 with 11 doubles and 62 strikeouts versus 32 walks. He has limited defensive abilities and no speed. I wouldn’t call this a good season for Kubes in that he isn’t taking any steps forward from a year ago…also, I am not seeing the basis for his future to be described as “bright”.
But that’s really beside the point, the real point is it was the same exact mess up. In both games, it didn’t matter because the Twins won. But you cannot argue that Kubel is less culpable than Ford…they both were about 70 feet from a routine fly ball on a Sunday at the dome. I’m not ripping on Kubel…it happens; it’s the Metrodome. That was my same point a year ago.
I have to agree with Jason. It happens in the dome. In fact it happend to Delmon just the other day on a line drive in the lights. Naturally the fans gave it to Delmon really good because, well he is Delmon and that is the cool thing to do. Ignore the fact he is actually been statistically very good in LF! 
Now, saying that…can we please have no more Lew Ford comments. It has been very nice not having him around this year. Not because he is a bad guy, just because he wasn’t productive and Gardy loved him.
Why not play Buscher, or even Lamb, against lefties w/ Harris at SS instead of Everett. Buscher and/or Lamb probably can hit lefties as good as Everett (who can’t hit at all.) Then sub Everett in during late innings for
defensive purposes……….
Bear with me on this analogy.
I think the young first-place Twins are like Kevin, from ‘Home Alone’; unexpectedly enjoying where they are, ingeniously overcoming some setbacks and challenges, and gaining strength and maturity as time progresses. Now I’m just waiting for the moment where the first-place Twins set the booby traps and beat up the bad guys.
Remember when Kevin tells the basement furnace to “shut up” when it howls at him? I think that is the Bitch Sox: at first Kevin is scared (four game sweep in ChiTown), but later he realizes how silly the fear is, and he casually dismisses it (three out of four in the Dome).
I’m just afraid that the analogy breaks down when the bad guys -Yankees, Angels- come to town.
As an aside, isn’t it nice to imagine a strong fourth outfielder available as a defensive replacement or pinch-hitter? The hypothetical outfield rotation would mean fresher players down the stretch, as well as stronger options on the bench.
Whiteness,
“I think the young first-place Twins are like Kevin, from ‘I think the young first-place Twins are like Kevin, from ‘Home Alone’;”
I hope next year’s Twins sequel is a hell of a lot better than ‘Home Alone II’.
Whiteness,
Sorry I butchered the cut from your post.
Whiteness…that analogy was horrendous. Thanks for adding credence to the stereotype that Twins fans are geeks.
Jason: Kubel is exactly league median for DH’s in terms of OPS. I’m not sure, but being about average/median at your position isn’t bad, is it?
Bandwagon: what does this even mean? I’ve never understood this. If your team plays badly, why are you required to still say nice things about them? Why are you required to go to games? Why is anyone required to care about a team at all if they are doing badly to be a “real fan”?
Jason - sure, it was the same mistake. I didn’t say otherwise. The fan reaction is vastly different because the two players are vastly different in terms of their production and their value to the team.
Whoever mentioned that booing Delmon was the “cool thing to do” is probably right. A few macho jack a$$es start booing the guy and everyone else wants to go along with it.
I never really thought his history had anything to do with it but who knows. What I do know is that he seems to be a decent guy now. Have you heard him postgame before? He doesn’t sound like he’d hurt a fly, and he seems real studious when it comes to getting better.
Way to cherry pick the doubles numbers, Jason. Who cares that Kubel is second in homeruns, and RBI. And 4th in extra base hits. But you’re right, it would be nice if some of those homeruns were doubles.
“The fan reaction is vastly different because the two players are vastly different in terms of their production and their value to the team.”
Is that right?
Ford (4.5 seasons):
.272 avg. / 32 HR / 172 RBI / 1514 ABs
Kubel (4 seasons):
.263 avg. / 37 HR / 152 RBI / 1010 ABs
*Careful on your use of the term “vastly”
14 HRs does it for you, Tony?
Seriously?
I really like Kubes, he seems like a great dugout guy and he does come through big sometimes. But the only reason Twins fans talk about his numbers are because his numbers look good on OUR team. His numbers are not really that great for an AL DH. And the point was made that his numbers haven’t really gotten better and he hasn’t progressed. I just don’t think he’s turned into the Kubel that everyone said he would be “in a few years.”
K…you guys re-opened the door on this debate…
Does it bother anyone else that Brendon Harris has more extra base hits than Kubel?
How about this comparison on the 2008 season:
Doug Mientkiewicz (201 ABs):
.274 avg. / 1 HR / 16 doubles
Kubes (312 ABs):
.260 avg. / 14 HR / 11 doubles
I won’t ignore all the stats. I’ll factor it all in…but let’s not pretend Kubes is making strides and his future is bright…the future is now…he needs to step it up in the last two months!
Ford (4.5 seasons):
.272 avg. / 32 HR / 172 RBI / 1514 ABs
Kubel (4 seasons):
.263 avg. / 37 HR / 152 RBI / 1010 ABs
You may have made a decent argument until you put ABs down. I’m positive that when you add 500 ABs to Kubel’s numbers they will be FAR superior to Lew’s. And remember most of Lew’s numbers came in one season when he played out of his mind. Kubel has just been steady.
Jason-
Thank you for bringing up Brenden Harris! That guy has been awesome lately. Two doubles Thursday night, two doubles Friday night, and a homer yesterday to start the scoring for the Twins. He seems to be an unsung productive player for us.
yes, and that one season when he played out of his mind the Twins won the AL Central.
Kubes’ “steadiness” has led to a seemingly never-ending platoon that currently has him sharing time with Randy Ruiz. I’m not sure that’s what all the fans were screaming about the last two years when they raved about how awesome this guy was going to be.
I guess I’m a late comer to the bandwagon but How bout those First Place Twins.
Is there any chance Hechek could come back and help the bullpen?
I think Kubel has been a bit of a dissapointment. I expected him to cement himself as the everyday DH and he’s been given every opportunity to do so. Although he is still one of our better hitters and we wouldn’t be where we are without him I really thought I would sed 280-290 avg plus power production that demanded he play every day. This is not what we have seen.
I would say the fan raving has a lot to do with his minor league numbers as he was progressing through the system. That unfortunate knee injury may have hurt a bit. I was never in the “Free Kubel” camp, as I saw him as just an adquate DH with no fielding range. I like him as a LH bat.
However, I would say his potential for staying power is stronger than Lew’s. I want to say with regular playing time he will hit .265 20+HR 85 RBIs, which is acceptable for a 6-7 hole guy. I think he can do it consistently. However, he still has not lived up to his billing.
I basically had the same expectations of Kubel as I did Young from an offensive standpoint.
But we’ve had above expectations contributions from Span, Bushcer, Casilla… which has made up a huge amount for the sub-par years from Cuddy, Harris, Everett, Lamb.
Morneau and Mauer are just awesome, there really isn’t anyway other way to put it. Gomez has been about expectations with the exception of swiping bases… I thought he’d be a much better stealer.
The overall mix of their OPS type #’s suggest they should be doing well but not nearly as well as they have. They have just been, incredibly clutch…???
However I do expect them to be in first place come the end of the year and have felt that way for about a month….
Brendan Harris has 1 more extra-base hit in 31 more atbats.
Kubel has a lot of ugly at-bats (see yesterday’s final at-bat golf swing)and he can look pretty clueless against lefties at times. However, he does seem to get a lot of clutch hits in big situations.
Jeeze!
I am glad we are done with the interesting and intellectual topics from this weekend.
I was having a hard time keeping up.
Now that we are back to the “Free/Don’t Free Kubel”, “Morneau is the face of the Twins-or not” and “Mauer in the 2-hole” arguments, I can just run out the overused arguments again and keep up with the other pseudo-intellectuals.
Or just get some work done.
Or take a nap.
Jason, so you are saying that league average in OPS for our DH is not good enough? They can’t all be great players. Imagine what Young’s or Gomez’s numbers would be if they were even close to league average for their position, or Everett, or Lamb, or Cuddeyer.
OPS rank vs AL (vs guys with at least 120 ABs at a position, or so):
Young: 14th
Gomez: 20th
Cuddeyer: 14th
Buscher: 8th
Punto (SS): 5th/6th (holy cow, but it won’t last, he’s dropping fast)
Span (RF): 5th (small sample…)
Kubel: 7th
so, what exactly does a player need to do to be worth having on your team? If league average isn’t good enough, what is?
FLA Twin:
Did you seriously call Neshek “Hecheck”?
Get out of here…
and No, there is probably no chance he will return this year…
All I know is when Doug Mientkiewicz has more doubles than you in August, you probably weren’t the type of hitter the organization expected you would be.
Is Kubel going to be cut anytime soon? No, of course not. But he also hasn’t solved any of the ongoing holes this team continues to have (namely, 3B, DH, and LF).
And if “league average” is what we’re hoping for, then 9 games out of first ought to be our goal for the final standings. Is anyone else cool with that?
ZZZZZZZ,
Hecheck is somewhere between Pat Neshek and Arnold Horshack, both of whom we would “Welcome Back!”
“And if “league average” is what we’re hoping for, then 9 games out of first ought to be our goal for the final standings.”
If we can’t be “league average” at ALL POSITIONS, then we should just leave those substandard positions vacant.
That will make the whole team stronger.
I think it is unrealistic to expect ANY team to have 8 position players that are better than league average. You seriously expec them to have that at all 8 everyday positions (plus DH)? That is just unrealistic. They have two great player in M&M, and they have league average player in Kubel, league below average in LF and CF, and sample sizes that are really too small at other positions.
I’d love it if they had 9 everyday players that were the best at their position, but that is unrealistic to say the least. I’m not going to complain about any hitter that is league average or better, unless he is making way above league average pay.
The main problem with the first-place Twins’ relievers is that opposing batters are sitting on first-pitch fastballs, and our relievers are throwing them right down the middle.
I know the FP Twins’ mantra is to get that first strike, but it’s time to change up (hint!) the pitching order. Also, throw a few more first pitch sliders…especially Guerrier!
Howard i think there’s magic in section 220. I was at the dome for both Saturday and Sundays games and i sat in the cheap seats on Saturday but i was in section 220 on Sunday to watch, much to my surprise, Liriano make his triumphant return and lead the 1st place Twins to first place. I’m not saying i should get any credit but if i wouldv’e sat anywhere else who knows. One of my favorite moments was watching Juan Rincon take another save away for Nathan just like old times. GO 1ST PLACE TWINS.
Kubel has more extra-base hits than Douggy M. Kubel has a XBH/AB is higher than Douggy M. Are we supposed to be upset that he’s hit less doubles? Would it be better if he stopped at 2nd during some of his homeruns?
Jason -
I do not believe that you are that stubborn. I assume you either a) hate Jason Kubel for some reason beyond his baseball ability or b) just really want to argue for the sake of arguing.
As others have pointed out time and time again, Kubel is having a fine year. You can go right ahead and point to doubles as some sort of measure of how good a player is, but you hurt your own argument. Kubel is slugging .449 this year. Dougie Baseball is slugging .368. It really isn’t that close.
And no one is “hoping” for league average from the entire team. That’s why we have Justin Morneau, Joe Mauer, and Joe Nathan. Due to the budgetary constraints of this team, you are not going to get above league average offensive production out of every position on the field. The Twins have decided, as an organization, to focus on pitching first, and defense second. It has served them well. It is also why we have starters in our 4 and 5 slots that are much better than many teams options, and why we have below average production from typically “offensive” positions such as 3B.
So, if the Twins get above average production out of their closer, first baseman, catcher, and back end of the rotation, they can afford to get league average production out of their DH.
Yesterday, GCL CF Aaron Hicks went 2 for 2, 2 RBI with a triple and a HR.
He is now hitting .342 3-21.
Hitting is the only one of the five tools that is even in doubt with Hicks.
Arm, speed, power and fielding are already assured.
If he can continue to develop his hitting as he advances through the system, the Twins may have made their best 1st round pick since Joe Mauer.
A. I do not hate Jason Kubel.
The one undeniably huge factor that goes in favor of Kubel is he has definitely provided some clutch hits this season…something I’m still waiting for Delmon Young to do.
B. I don’t really want to compare Dougie to Kubel (Doug M. was supposed to be mopping clubhouse floors at this point in the year and instead he’s hitting 2nd for Pittsburgh)…I throw that stat out there to prove a point; the point is, Kubel’s production isn’t going up. I think it is instructive that for a team filled with singles hitters, Kubel is not distinguishing himself when supposedly he’s one of our power sources. The 14 homers are a plus (and his sole statistical upgrade from a year ago), but only 28 extra base hits overall isn’t good enough when you can’t run. For guys like Span, Casilla, and Go-go, a single is damn near as good as a double.
So no, I’m not arguing for the sake of arguing…and I also didn’t start this–this started when someone pointed out how good Kubel has been this year and how his future is so bright. I’m simply outlining the reality of the situation.
Let’s put it this way, though, if Kubel can continue to come up with clutch hits amongst a poor batting average in August and September in his platoon playing time, I’ll definitely take it. I just won’t be calling for him to be “freed”.
The problem with calling Kubel “league average” is he has done it while getting his plate appearances largely in the most favorable conditions.
If he were truly ‘league average’ he would be posting those numbers while playing every day, including against LH pitching.
I’m not calling for the Twins to dump Kubel, I like him and he has helped the Twins. I still hope for more.
But it’s also true he’s come nowhere near close to putting up the type numbers we would hope for, given his minor league track record and the fact he’s basically only facing RH pitching.
“this started when someone pointed out how good Kubel has been this year”
How could ANYBODY let that pass?
Excuse me, that should read:
“…helped the First Place Twins.”
Twins record so far: 62-49
Twins record @ 111 games 2007: 57-54
Five game improvement over a team that finished four games under.
And the Twins have 21 games left in the Dome.
29 on the road, and the AL’s worst road team ERA.
How many innings has Liriano pitched so far this year?
How many times has he pitched that many innings before?
How did that work out?
How’s the Kool-Aid tasting?
Don’t forget LY DH #’s weren’t anywhere near leage avg… So League Average is a huge improvement.
Announcement in the sixth inning future game…
“Now Pitching for Your First Place Minnesota Twins’, Michael Cuddyer!”
Those middle relievers still scare the Bejeebus out of me. Crain looks like a Rincon in training.
Reyes looked ok yesterday, but maybe it’s because he did some surgery on that beard thing he was sporting.
If we could get solid help in the 6-7-8 innings, we could win this thing.
McAsh - Do you think dumping the starter that had the worst road ERA will help the first-place Twins improve their overall road ERA? I sure do.
Jason -
Throwing out the number of doubles Doug Mientkiewicz has proves absolutely nothing about Jason Kubel.
You point to Kubel’s doubles numbers being down. Well, he has more triples and home runs than he had last year, and in over 100 fewer at bats. He has already scored more runs this year than he did last year, and will almost certainly surpass his RBI numbers - but both of those statistics are team dependent, so I’m not too concerned about them. His slugging percentage is nearly identical to last year, while his OBP and BA are down, probably due to being a bit more unlucky this year than last - his batting average on balls in play is down .026 from last year. His walk to strike out rate is identical to last year.
Jason Kubel has outperformed every other option the Twins have tried at DH over the past 2 years. That’s why people what Jason Kubel “freed”. Because he is better than any other option the Twins have had. He shouldn’t be platooning with the likes of Craig Monroe, Randy Ruiz, Jeff Cirillo, Jason Tyner, Rondell White, or Garrett Jones.
Nor McAsh,
“How’s the Kool-Aid tasting?”
Nobody drinks that stuff because life-haters like you keep spitting in it.
TEAM OPS
TY: .742 League avg: .748 8th in the AL (.744 MLB)
LY: .721 (13th of 14 in the AL) League Avg: 760
These are major improvements and this doesn’t even account for the cluctchyness of the team (although likely unsustainable) this year. The Twins offense is dramatically better vs. LY especially when you consider production is down TY leage wide.
The ERA suggests the Twins are just pitching average TY where as LY we are better than average…
The big thing ERA overlooks is that, especially Livan, seemed to be very good or very bad in terms of allowing runs. In other words their averages are average but because they are consistently inconcistent they have several outings signifcantly better and worse than average thus allowing them to win better than an average amount of games…. That’s where OPS and ERA, both averages are not doing a good job of predicting the expected results for the Twins. Hopefully the continue to buck the trend!
Nor McAsh,
Why aren’t you posting under your real name? - Pat Thetic McWorthless
Pete D–
“He shouldn’t be platooning with the likes of Craig Monroe, Randy Ruiz, Jeff Cirillo, Jason Tyner, Rondell White, or Garrett Jones.”
You are 100% wrong on that. Gardy has it correct, you (and others) are wrong.
Also, next time, don’t destroy your credibility by going with stuff like this:
“while his OBP and BA are down, probably due to being a bit more unlucky this year than last”
And here I thought last year was the year that Kubel was getting robbed by having all these hard-hit balls end up in the opponents’ gloves…
Jason
As a huge Kubel fan, I’m going to admit that Kubel has been a dissapointment. If that is your arguement, then I agree. If you’re saying he hasn’t been productive, with our DH ranking last the last 10 years (an exaggeration), I disagree. And finally don’t bring Ford or Dougie into it. You sound like a homer pushing an agenda.
MC, I agree to some extent. Averages are not the best measure. There are clearly times when pitchers “have it” and when they don’t. That’s why I actually like quality start so much as a stat (you can argue about 3 in 6 if you want). It tells you how often a pitcher has a start that is good. That gives you some discrete measurement that ERA does not.
Hitting stats are tougher. I know there are stats that attmept to do the same thing as quality start, but I’m not sure there is one I like (though I admit to not searching super hard to find one). For instance, does Kubel only get hits when the opposing pitcher is giving hits to everyone? Is that actually more valuable than when he is the only guy to get a hit in a game?
Kubel SUCKS!
Mauer should be hitting 2nd!
Trade for Adrian Beltre!
BATHROOM CAULK!
There, I think I covered 90% of the conversations that have been intertwined in this thread.
Now to add something new:
With the way the Twins are playing, is it Division or bust at this point? Or do can they still fall back on the Wild Card? They don’t have any games left with Boston, but other than that they’ve got New York and Chicago as the other two teams.
If the Twins beat Chicago they’re in the division, so it comes down to finishing ahead of Boston and New York.
Does anybody else think if Chicago doesn’t collapse as tends to happen this time of year that we could have a playoffs without either Eastern team?
For that matter, how are the Mets? Could we have our first playoff series in a while without any New York team or Boston?
JP…I’m with you on your take, I only brought Dougie and Ford in as two examples of guys who Kubel was supposedly going to leave in their dust in terms of his value to our ballclub…no agenda there, just noteworthy.
I think it’s absolutely noteworthy that Kubel is being outplayed by one of our supposed washed up, retreads, four years removed….
And by the way, I was at the Metrodome on Friday night and saw the same thing I’ve been seeing all year–a lot more fans with “Mientkiewicz” and “Ford” jerseys than “Kubel” ones…and while I don’t advocate living in the past (I think it’s silly to wear a Ford or Mientkiewicz jersey to a game), I think that’s fairly instructive on this issue, as well, as you would think Kubel jerseys would far surpass them by now if he was the type of player we expected him to be.
I love everything about the Twins except Buscher’s arm, the weakened bullpen (without Neshek), and the FO’s obstinance in not correcting those problems.
Too many damned injuries too. Head-first slides anybody?
Any chance we will see a Kubel / Cuddyer platoon at the DH spot once Cuddy returns?
mike,
“For instance, does Kubel only get hits when the opposing pitcher is giving hits to everyone? Is that actually more valuable than when he is the only guy to get a hit in a game?”
Let me know when you get the answer to that question, because that sounds like my career. (or facsimile of a career)
I always used to break up the no-hitters, then get blanked while my teammates were going five-for-five. Hard to figure.
Kind of surprising to me how the Twins are anxiously awaiting Cuddyer’s return. He really hasn’t been that great since his breakthrough ‘06 season. Since then his at-bats look a lot more defensive. He waves his bat through the strike zone, pushing hits to RF. In ‘06 he was punishing the ball, pulling it with authority to LF and over the fence. Why did he change as a hitter; seems like he’s returned to being another average player. Any thoughts out there? He shouldn’t be handed the RF job, with the way Span has played.
Jason -
“You are 100% wrong on that. Gardy has it correct, you (and others) are wrong.”
I’m interested in seeing the reasons why this is true. Kubel has out produced every single one of those players. You want to give him a game off against a tough lefty, go ahead. But it seems to me that Kubel should have the lion’s share of at bats at DH on this team.
“Also, next time, don’t destroy your credibility by going with stuff like this:”
Just trying to show a reason his batting average might and on base percentage might be down from last year. His batting average on balls in play is down 26 points from last year. That’s pretty significant. Why might this be? Looking at his other numbers, we can see that his line drive percentage and his ground ball percentage are down, while his fly ball numbers are up. Perhaps he is trying to jack one out each at bat. Which would probably lead to a lower batting average and on base percentage, while raising his home run totals. So it looks like he might be trading his average for more home runs. Is that the right choice? I don’t know.
But the real point is - Jason Kubel has been a productive member of this lineup. He has probably hit better than any of our other outfield candidates, sans the past month or so of Span’s at bats. You continue to complain about his production, even though it has been shown to be league average. Kubel is one of the better hitters on the team, and should be in the lineup most days.
“Why did he change as a hitter; seems like he’s returned to being another average player.”
Hand injuries.
Morneau may not win the Gold Glove but MVP is in sight.
Can’t Move Cuddy:
He’s deaf in his left ear.
Stop dreaming.
He can play RF … well.
Or first base. Where we have a certain MVP.
Thank you T, I was getting bored of the same old conversations.
I believe that the “First Place” Twins have a chance at winning the Wild Card. I haven’t checked lately, but I think they are only 1 game back of the BoSox in that regard. So it’s a definite possibility.
I, however, see the more likely scenario of Chicago’s pitching killing them and dropping them out of the race. I think they will still win 87-89 games, but 90+ is needed in the AL. My guess at final standings (playoff race that is)
AL East:
Tampa Bay - 94 Wins
Boston - 93
New York - 90
AL Central:
Minnesota - 92
Chicago - 88
AL West:
LA of Anaheim of California of the United States of America of the World - 97 Wins
I still contend the Angels are the class of the AL.
Jason -
“I think it’s absolutely noteworthy that Kubel is being outplayed by one of our supposed washed up, retreads, four years removed….”
1. Doug Mientkiewicz is not outplaying Jason Kubel from a hitting standpoint.
2. Doug Mientkiewicz was never really washed up, or a retread. He was expendable because the Twins had Justin Morneau waiting to play.
Ignore this comment as it has nothing to do with anything, but I coulda swore you called Dougie a “washed up retard” as opposed to a washed up, retread.
Anywho, carry on….
Cuddy will probably share DH duty with Kubel among other things.
As someone noted there is a vast difference in SLG % where Kubel dominates Dougie. So to blanket state that Dougie is “outplaying” Kubel, I’d take exception to that. And you’re using a jersey poll method to back up your arguement regarding Ford/Dougie vs Kubel. I did get a good chuckle out of that one.
Kubel has played himself into a platoon. He was given a chance to hit against lefties and it hasn’t been good. But to call him out for not producing is a bit off.
His OPS is 40th best in the AL .773. WIth only Mauer (19) and Morneau (11) being better on the team.
Vs AB OPS
LHP 63 0.498
RHP 247 0.847
But his production has been putrid vs. LHP and that has earned him a place on the bench against lefties.
From 05-07
Vs AB OPS
LHP 109 675
RHP 529 0.759
So his career prior to this year suggested he’s be more balanced but also show’s he’s certainly a very good Platoon option.
That’s the disspointing part. I think many people, including myself, thought Kubel could be an every day player… and I think he should be when he’s hot.
But he doesn’t have a track record that suggests he should get ton’s of at bats against lefties.
this team reminds me of the 84 team that wilted in the last week. young players (this team is less experienced) and a young pitching staff (this team is younger but more talented, with the exception of viola) they stayed in the race until the last week, as the rat said it’s hard to throw the ball with your hands around your throat! let’s hope the old guys, mauer and morneau can show the leadership a pennant race requires.
sane: i don’t remember cuddy having a bad hand last yr i thought it was him tripping and landing on his helmet that screwed him up.
Can’t wait to see the first place Minnestota Twins game in Seattle tomorrow night. First time I’ve seen the new stadium. Wife doesn’t know it, but that’s why I decided to take our annual Seattle vacation this week.
gobble,
You may be right.
I thought I remembered a hand injury also, but I have forgotten where I am parked or what I was driving.
I love this comparison:
Ford (4.5 seasons):
.272 avg. / 32 HR / 172 RBI / 1514 ABs
Kubel (4 seasons):
.263 avg. / 37 HR / 152 RBI / 1010 ABs
add this one, too:
David Ortiz (first five seasons with the Twins, about the same AB as Kubel)
.264 BA/ 38 HR /163 RBI/ 1065 AB
pretty similar…
The fact that Kubel is hitting more HRs than 2B is a good thing. He is on his way to become a legitimate power hitter. I posted this before, but most power hitters have more HRs than 2B. The one thing that Kubel is missing (and Ortiz developed later in his career) is plane discipline. Once/if Kubel develops this, the sky is the limit.
I made Ortiz/Kubel comparisons before in their development as power hitters and based on the criteria of HR-power vs. gap power (i.e. hitting more HRs than 2Bs) Kubel is about 2 years ahead of Ortiz. Ortiz developed HR power in Boston when he was 29 and plane discipline the year after.
Would Kubel get there? Who knows… he needs to develop discipline.
“Now that the first-place Twins have taken care of last-place Cleveland, it’s on to Seattle for three games against the last-place Mariners”
Last place Indians?
Last place Mariners?
3rd place Tigers?
2nd place Marlins?
1st place Rays?
1st place Twins?
What the hell is going on?
I don’t think that is how I picked it in March.
It’s been tough keeping up with the first place Twins since I’ve been in the UK for the past 2 weeks but man is it great to go into the office and pull up the standings from last night and see the first place Twins (ok…fpT from now on) finally in FIRST PLACE!!! It seems they have been so close for so long. I’m dreaming of a division title with the ChiSox taking the WC. That would mean no NYY and BoSox to worry about. Though it does look like the LAA are the team to beat now. How about a Liriano-Santana matchup in the WS? I know I know…but it’s fun to ponder.
i think this is getting very late for cuddy to be getting his season going again, if it ever was going. i see him being a spot start against lh and maybe a spell at first to give jason some dh time. lamb and cuddy as guys off the bench would be a big improvement over last yr with tyner, l-rod and ford.
however i can see gardy putting cuddy in rf when he comes back because that has been how he has operated before when a veteran comes back from injury.
What I don’t think we’ll see to much of is Span on the bench… so I think it will be pretty rare you see him riding pine just becuase of his top of the order skills he has displayed are much needed on this squad.
MC -
“But his production has been putrid vs. LHP and that has earned him a place on the bench against lefties.”
In 2005, Justin Morneau hit .201 / .255 / .331 in 165 plate appearances against left handed pitching. Kubel only has 37 more plate appearances in his career against lefties. I’m pretty sure no one wants Morneau to platoon against lefties, do they?
No… so I think I suggested earlier, when he’s going, let him go out there against lefties. He needs to show improvement against lefties but I think you have to be selective on how you work him into that role.
And Morneau is considerably better this year vs. Lefties than he was LY.
This year vs. Lefties OPS: .821
vs righties: 962
LY vs. Lefties OPS: 694
vx. Righties:.907
Last Year post All Star break Morneau couldn’t buy a hit against lefties but becasue the Twins were going so bad and he was the only option they let him work through it… but he could have been platooned on ocasion LY. Morneau against lefties last year was a big part of why the team struggled in the second half.
Now I think this year the team is better off because of it and I do think this shows Kubel could get better but do I think the team should suffer because he’s not clicking right now against lefties? No. He should be platooned for the time being until he’s torid then start spotting him in there against lefties.
I can’t get the splits post all star break for Morneau, maybe someone else can but his OPS last year went in the tank.
.243, .318, .384 (.702)
Not only did he stop hitting Home Runs after the break, he just stop hitting.
Let’s hope he was just covering up an injury.
Cuddy will probably clear waivers. I think there is a chance that he will be a Met/Ray/Marlin/Blue Jay by year’s end.
Morneau:
2008 1st half OPS .903, 2nd half OPS .938
2007 1st half OPS .944, 2nd half OPS .702
2006 1st half OPS .939, 2nd half OPS .930
2005 1st half OPS .808, 2nd half OPS .674
career 1st half OPS .891, 2nd half OPS .801
I don’t think there is any chance they move Cuddy.
He’s largely considered the best option on the roster to produce power from the right side or they wouldn’t have signed him to the deal they did last off season. Plus he’s injured so they’d get little to no value. I just don’t see it.
MC,
Ruiz is the best option on the roster to produce power from the right side.
thrylos98, what was the 07 2nd half splits? I remember him being particularly bad vs. lefties in the second half.
I cannot get the 2nd half splits against lefties, but for the year in 2007 he hit .228/.283/.411 against LHP (not great numbers)
Ruiz could be, but I’ll beliveit when I see it. He looked a little slow on the fastball in his first game and the fastball wasn’t much over 90 MPH. However, I’m optimitic and I think Ruiz get’s those at bats until he proves he can’t do it.
Right On Carlos G. As a fan since the Twins first season when I was 9, this season, no matter how it ends, ranks right near the top for fun and excitement, much like 1987, when I attended a 3-game series in Oakland to see Blyleven/Viola vs. Stewart/Welch and realized the Twins were playiing first-place baseball. Many questions for this season: will the young starters wear down; will we keep hitting (despite the bashing Cuddyer protects Morneau better than anyone else and has the respect of pitchers around the league - just a down, injury-plagued season for him); what about our relief pitching, a prime ingredient in those division pennants, but kinda scary before the 9th inning this year. GO TWINS!
thrylos98 says:
August 4th, 2008 at 3:50 pm
MC,
Ruiz is the best option on the roster to produce power from the right side.
————————————-
Dear God I hope you are joking. Please tell me you are joking. Cuddy has a proven track record that without a doubt proves he is a better option, when healthy, than Ruiz. Don’t even start with minor league numbers and that BS. He was a career minor leaguer until now. He’s going back down when Cuddy comes back…Period
thrylos,
I change it to Cuddyer is the best proven RH power option on the roster.
Cuddy’s the known comodity in terms of past prodcution… but Ruiz has a chance to be better for the remiander of the year. But, I gotta see it before I accept it as a truth.
Does Ruiz have options remaining since this is the first time he’s been called up? I’m not sure how that works for a 30 YO career minor leaguer…
Ruiz leads the whole Twins’ organization this year in home runs. Before his first game, he had to endure a 3 hour flight and a couple of cab drives ending a couple of hours before he took his first at bat, so I’d give him a break about that.
Ruiz has options remaining. 2 years worth, in addition to this year.
Sigh.
cuddy has proven, every year but 2006, that he is not that good. Other than 2006, he’s been around 12th or worse compared to RFers in the AL. He’s just not that good. Unfortunately, that might still make him the best RH hitter on the squad, which is why some of us wanted a trade….
A trade would have been nice. But does anyone believe that Morneau will see any pitches with Ruiz behind him? Depending how he is swinging when he returns, the pitchers have to consider Cuddyer.
I don’t think Ruiz is going to be behind Morneau unless he proves it in the bigs…
And I’m not being hards on Ruiz, I said I think RH DH is his job vs. LHP until he proves he can’t handle it… and I didn’t say I don’t think he can handle it.
I’m hoping for a Jack Cust like performance.
“But does anyone believe that Morneau will see any pitches with Ruiz behind him?”
Who has hit behind Morneau so far this year?
Larry, Curly, Moe and Shemp.
And he is still having an MVP-contending year.
Protection is totally overrated………………….except in Sexually Transmitted Disease (STD) prevention.
But over the past few weeks you’ve started to see people pitch around Morneau… so maybe prior to then it didn’t matter but if you start reducing the number of opportunities for him to drive in those crucial runs by pitching around him… you need someone to make them pay at a fair rate.
That’s why Ortiz/Ramirez has been so critical to Boston’s success.
Are we actually discussing what to do with Ruiz when Cuddyer gets back?
He’s the definition of a placeholder.
Definitely a huge increase in intentional walks or careful pitching with runners on second and/or third over the past month or so. I disagree w/Sane especially with a team like ours with little power from anywhere else.
Howard, is FPT acceptable for you? I don’t want to get carpal tunnel syndrome like you.
I’d like to see Youkilis keep up that great fielding if he got a steady diet of tosses from Buscher, Harris, even Punto. I think Doc has done great at 1st and deserves the GG more than Youkilis. BTW I’m not sure managers/coaches are necessarily an upgrade over writers. I’ve heard anecdotes about conversations in clubhouses that go like this: who you putting down? Is he still good? OK I’ll pick him.
And don’t dump on the writers too much re MVP. Justin might get it yet especially since it’s highly unlikely the Rangers will be in any postseason mix and Justin continues to do so well with RISP and RISP with two outs. Isn’t that a big basis for his 2006 MVP to the chagrin of all Jeterites (they still mention it on YES whenever the FPT play them **yawn**).
“Definitely a huge increase in intentional walks or careful pitching with runners on second and/or third over the past month or so”
And has that hurt Morneau’s (or the team’s) offensive production over the past month or two?
It doesn’t seem to have hurt.
“And has that hurt Morneau’s (or the team’s) offensive production over the past month or two?”
Morneau
April-May-June ( avg. per month)
.314 6 HR 21.7 RBI
LAST 30 DAYS
.310 6 HR 22 RBI
Not significant!
My bad!
Morneau
April-May-June ( avg. per month)
.314 4 HR 21.7 RBI
LAST 30 DAYS
.310 6 HR 22 RBI
Increase in HR-RBI rate,
Slight decrease in BA.
We shall see. can’t look at overall stats for something like this - it will be key moments in key games in a pennant race where it could very well make a difference. Would feel much more comfortable with a semi-stud batting 4th
If they continue to walk Morneau, we just need to hope that the guys hitting ahead of him can keep getting on base.
Putting one or two runners on ahead of Morneau will make it less tempting to pitch around him. Because then they’re looking at 2-3 men on for guys like Kubel and Young.
“Would feel much more comfortable with a semi-stud batting 4th”
Morneau bats 4th.
If you mean 5th, so would I, but IMO its not a show-stopper. We have survived with Kubel/Young/Cuddyer/Monroe so far.
Hey Howard, I got the Royals game on and their announcer must have heard ya — he just said the FPMT!! Other than when we are playing them, I luv the Royals!!!
Jason,
but this isn’t a huge comeback story…the Twins have been playing .580 baseball pretty much the entire season…
Sorry couldn’t get back to this blog until this evening.
On June 10, the (now) first place Twins were 3 games UNDER .500 at 31-34, or .477.
Since June 11, the first place Twins are 31-15, or .674 over that time period. That includes 6 losses to NYY and Boston. If we could conveniently dismiss those losses, we would be at an astounding .775.
Your assumption they’ve been rolling right along at .580 for the season isn’t at all supported by facts. And, I believe my contention that this young team in April would be much better by August seems to be exactly what we are seeing. Can the youth hold up through September? That’s what we get to see over the next two months.
Buster Olney reporting interest in Livo from Mets and Rockies. If he clears waivers tomorrow Tues. he’ll be a FA.
Macalester has a baseball team??? Wow!! And here I thought the Mac crowd was little more than an “enlightened” cult of Berkley wannabes.
Go Macalester! (Do they even have a team nickname?)
please, Please, PLEASE send Brian Bass to double-A ball. He is LOUSY out of the pen! Why are we keeping him around???!!!!
Gardenhire screwed up and left Perkins in an inning too long. He started struggling in the 6th and was allowed to not only load the bases in the 7th, but pitch with only one out. Big Mistake!!
Our middle relief is WEAK. This is what happens when you lose your setup man, Neshek. Now Matty G. is pitching setup when he would have been the capable middle innings guy and given Gardie some options in the 7th.
I agree, Bass has done nothing since coming up. I don’t get him or Bonser. Both are overmatched in the majors.
So much for the First Place Twins..yeesh..what an ugly inning…
That’s an awfully impressive 1st place team. Some teams have success with a bullpen.
Hello, I am the Seattle Mariners. I give you Miguel Batista - when he isn’t issuing walks, please feel free to hit the ball around the yard. I don’t realy care whether I win this game. Oh - you want to give us a 10-spot, then I guess we have no choice but to win this game. Thank you so much, enjoy our fine city.
Howard, maybe bragging about FPMT was a bit premature? After that ugly snatching of defeat from the jaws of victory, it’s now the co-FPMT. If the boys make it to the postseason, I sure hope the two youngest ones are the ones sent to the bullpen and the rotation is Baker, Liriano and Blackburn. I don’t know if Perkins lost focus or what but hopefully he learns from this fiasco. What a shame given the lousy starting pitcher the Mariners threw out there.
