If we remain calm, maybe he will too
Posted on August 11th, 2008 – 12:06 AMBy Howard
Didn’t drive off the road while listening to Sunday’s game on the way home from Kansas City. Got the first seven innings with the Royals crew, who are carried in Des Moines by a Christian station that broke up the game with bits of Bible wisdom, and then the final five with Gordo’n'Jack. The Royals announcers have a group man crush on the Twins based on what I heard … and then the Twins managed to live up to none of their hype.
Balls got thrown all over the place and the bases were left loaded twice, an extension of the untimely hitting that contributed to the unexpected outcomes in Seattle and a 3-3 road trip that should have been a 6-0 run. Sunday’s loss was a total team effort.
What many people will remember most vividly, though, is how Nick Punto capped off a stunningly bad two games by striking out four times Sunday and making two key misplays in the field. It was painful to listen to Jack Morris wail, “Oh, Nick” when he dropped a throw from the outfield on Mark Teahen’s double that opened the game-winning 12th — a base-running move that sounded destined to get Teahen thrown out at second if the play had been handled cleanly.
On Saturday, Punto’s night went downhill after he killed a first-inning Twins rally (first and third, none out) by stopping on the way to second base on a steal attempt because he thought the pitch to Joe Mauer was ball four (when it was really ball three). After that, he went 0-for-4 with two strikeouts (including a sad flick-swing fly out to shallow center with the bases loaded and one out). On Sunday, the low-key Royals announcers called him out a bit for his complaining after his first two strikeouts.
Here’s where you can practice discipline. Remain calm when the temptation is to do otherwise,
Baseball is a game based on failure. You know the drill: Fail 70 percent of the time and you get lauded for hitting .300. I suspect that if Punto could better deal with failure, we wouldn’t see the wild swings between success and failure that are his career pattern — a pattern that, by the nature of the game and some of the things he does when things go wrong, brings his failures more to the fore.
Punto gives the appearance of being wound too tightly for his own good, and the team’s good. Get called out on strikes? Go back to the dugout, cuss yourself out quietly, get over it and play the field. A close play at first base? Do NOT dive head first! Defense? Know the right thing and execute. It would be great if the natural ability that shows itself in Punto being one of baseball’s most “web gemmed” players carried over into the situations that go beyond simply reacting.
Here’s the deal: Nick Punto has value to the Twins. But it’s neither as an everyday player nor the No. 2 batter in the order. That hardly qualifies as great or original thought.
For now, however, Punto is the only healthy second base option, if you believe that Brendan Harris’ trouble turning the double play disqualify him from playing that position regularly. The No. 2 slot in the batting order thing is more puzzling, but there isn’t a clear-cut answer. I could make a case for Buscher against right-handers, but you could counter that having lefties batting 1-through-5 in the order can make for scary late-game situations, especially if Brendan Harris is also in the lineup. Harris’ .322 OBP doesn’t exactly make him a great choice for the No. 2 spot when he plays and his stats skew worse against lefties this season. Delmon is the only other option (and not a good one) unless you want to have the whole “Mauer should bat second” discussion again (yawn), which would lead to deficiencies elsewhere in the order.
Someone needs to get into Punto’s head and somehow prove to him the virtue of an even keel. (Someone should do that for a lot of us bloggers too, although we might not be as much fun that way!) In the meantime, you can model good behavior by remaining calm as you discuss him. Deep breaths, everyone.
Another thing that would help: Hurry back, Alexi Casilla!
other people are here too
166 Responses to "If we remain calm, maybe he will too"
Good points, Howard. Now if you could try go get the Twins to explain why there is no radio affiliate in Des Moines that carries the Twins! 
amtrekman, AM1300 in Mason City carries the Twins, which you can usually get in DSM. Most Iowa baseball fans are usually either Cardinals or Cubs fans… I grew up in Iowa, and didn’t hear a thing about the Twins until I moved up here to live. Funny how regions work.
punto needs to be satisfied with being a slap hitter. he swings like a power hitter and he’s not, at all. he needs to bunt for singles more and he needs to work on hitting the ball up the middle, not swinging for the fences.
but he’s just going through a slump, something that may be the result of not being 100%. but nevertheless, he needs to calm down. all players go through slumps and unfortunately, people would rather bash him than cheer him on.
DUMP HIM!
You could make a case for Everett losing the game on Sunday, but I would say Punto. Four strike outs? How many men did he leave on base? And the pop out with the winning run sitting on 2nd base in the 9th inning (get a run, bring in Nathan, etc etc). Finally, what was he doing with that throw in the 12th inning? It was an easy out, but not for Punto! He is inept in the infield, and he is a loser at the plate…what the heck is he doing on the team?
I hear that Gardy keeps him around because he works hard. Sure, the beer vendors work hard too, but that doesn’t mean they deserve to hold down second base. Punto’s lack of consistency is a disgrace to the team.
Trade Punto and Everett for a new bat boy….
How many men did he leave on base?
4. Ties him with Young for the game (who went 0-5)
But you want to know what really hurt? Howard mentioned the bases being left loaded twice. Guess who did that both times.
Kubel went 0-4 with 3 Ks and 9 left on base. NINE. Which pretty much justifies the Royals walking Morneau 3 times to face him.
Punto? Terrible day as usual. But you expect that from him. Kubel? That was the offensive buzzkiller.
Kubs had an awful day- no doubt. Can patience be taught? I know that the Twins stress aggressiveness at the plate, but there are a lot of guys around the periphery of the team that were patient hitters- Molitor, Carew, Killebrew, Hrbek- any chance they could tap some of that talent to help out Delmon and Gomez?- I believe that Sammy Sosa became effective, not so much because of the ‘roids, but because he learned to take a pitch.
Let’s not all forget about the number of runners that “No-Go” left on base this weekend. Coming up to bat twice on Friday with the bases loaded and looking totally unfocused (and inept at doing his job in that situation) is inexcuseable.
Wow, the fact that an entire blog entry (of close to 500 words it appears) can be devoted to Nick Punto alone should flash some alarm bells somewhere.
Trouble is, the someone whose alarm needs to be rung the most is the manager, and he had Nicky’s back throughout a dreadful 162 game campaign in 2007–what makes you think changes are going to be made after two bad games in 2008?
For the record, I agree with Howard whole-heartedly. Watching Nicky pout after his second strikeout, you wondered if Twins fans deserved a refund for his performance. As the game wore on, it got worse. Plate umpire Bob Davidson chewed out Nicky pretty hard after his second punchout, and I doubt there were many in the Twins dugout who were eager to have Punto’s back.
Hope Casilla gets back soon? Ah, how about do the right thing in the meanwhile and stick Harris in that two-spot. Good luck selling Gardy on that.
T brought up a great point (it happens, apparently) about Kubel’s inability to give Justin Morneau any lineup protection. This has been a problem all season for the Twins. We still hear the front office yapping about how Michael Cuddyer’s return will change everything, but I think most of us know just how big of a pipe dream that is.
Lost in the shuffle in losing a game we had no business to lose to a team we should never lose to was yet another bullpen collapse. I know it’s not all their fault with the fielding misplays, but when you take a two-run lead into the eighth inning, you’d like to think a playoff team would make that lead stick.
And on that note, maybe getting to first place should no longer be the goal–maybe we need to upgrade to holding first place for three straight nights.
Whoever coined the cliche, “we win as a team and we lose as a team,” had yesterday’s game in minde. I thought the pitchers largely did their jobs, but pretty much everyone else found a way to do their part to punt away a game that never should have been close. (Off hand, I can’t think of much Buscher did wrong and he did get a couple of hits, so perhaps he’s the lone exception.)
Anyone who says one particular player cost the Twins that game just didn’t watch enough of the game.
Bullpen collapse, Jason?
I’m not sure what a relief pitcher is supposed to do besides get an easy groundball to the shortstop to end the inning in the 8th. Breslow was in to his 3rd inning of relief by the time the game winner was scored. No pitcher is going to be perfect (unless, it seems, he’s a Royals bullpen arm facing the Twins), and I thought the bullpen overall did a pretty fair job the last couple of games. Certainly enough to have gotten wins.
as has been said before nicky is a good utility guy that has shown he can’t handle playing every day. his flaws show through when he is exposed on a regular basis and an occasional web gem doesn’t make up for all the bone head plays or temper tantrums. it could be blamed on the front office for not getting help but gardy has shown he wants punto in there even when the other options are healthy.
punto’s line; last 7 days .120, last 14 .192 and last 28 .169, and he keeps batting 2nd?
anyone see livan’s line from yesterday?
2 2/3 innings, 4 bb, 7 hits, 9 earned runs. well worth the 1.5m is guess!
Yes, there was plenty of blame to go around yesterday. Actually it was a very sloppy series in general. Twins should be thankful they took 2 out of 3.
Guerrier is supposed to be our set-up man…that means he comes into the 8th and pitches the entire 8th, leaving with a lead…one of the runs he gave up was earned. Look, I already said there were fielding misplays, but still, when you put guys on base late in the game, bad things are going to happen. Bully shouldn’t be entirely left off the hook.
As for Punto’s recent struggles, one should not even need to cite his “line” in the last week or so–the conclusion could have been made at the outset, when Gardy was so blinded by his .300 batting average (which meant absolutely nothing for the 90 or so at-bats he had). In other words, this should come as no suprise. Although Punto’s success this year was a surprise to me, as I was even writing that Gardy should get credit for going with Punto against the odds as his No. 2 guy over a week ago.
Seems I was wrong. The only question is, do we have to wait for Casilla’s return to get a change?
after getting blasted and rightly so for the first 2 gms in seattle, the bullpen has pitched near perfect for 4 games. yesterday can’t be blamed on them it was a team effort.
is bass still with the team? haven’t seen him for a while, which is ok.
Punto is a total bum on the field. He is the kind of player who will do alot to help the team lose games, almost without notice, like Sunday against the Royals. I think the sports fans and the sports writers need to pay better attention to the bums that hurt the team as well as the players who help the team. Punto and Cuddyer are real losers who are negatives for the Twins in game outcomes. Yet, somehow they remain on the roster. Gardenhire is not a very adept judge of player results when it comes to their effect on the team’s overall performance. The more games that Punto and Cuddyer are kept out of the lineup, the better the team will do in the standings.
JC hit the nail on the head. There were so many miscues in the field that it was a miracle the game didn’t end sometime before it did.
Buscher apparently lost one in the sun (which is okay if you ignore the fact he had glasses if he would’ve used them)
Everett had another couple of weaktosses. One that forced Lamb off the bag and lead to a run.
Lamb? More than once I remember seeing a pitcher field a grounder and then look over to see Lamb stumbling back toward 1st.
Gomez? He had a throw that missed the cut off man and lead to a 2nd/3rd situation vs. 1st/3rd. But I think that was the inning before the last one…so Breslow managed to make up for it. And I dunno if an on-target throw (or one that hits the cut-off) would have gotten the guy at home to stop the winning run…but by that point the game was done anyway.
And Punto? Well, he was involved in that ugly play earlier along with Baker and Lamb (and somehow was exclusively responsible), and he’ll likely be the goat because of his play in the last inning (as though that were the only error)
That’s where I think the media is sometimes accurate in their discussions of how Punto is viewed by the fan base. Yep, he sucks. But even when everybody sucks, he’s somehow singled out. It really is riddiculous. You can’t pin this loss squarely on Punto’s one error.
Other uglies:
Kubel/Young combine for an 0-9 and some dozen or so left on. Cuddy’s health is really a double edged sword. If he doesn’t get hurt, Span never gets his callup and we still have Gomez leading off. But watching those two today, that’s where the team died offensivly. I don’t care how many K’s Punto had…you’ve got Morneau walked 3 times and never once did they pay for it. (I’m not counting the walk RBI since that ended up being a smart trade-off)
It would be nice to see Mauer/___/Morneau, but the Twins just don’t have ANYBODY that can hit with enough consistency at this point to slot in there (or cleanup). But I’ll stop there because Howard’s right, the Mauer batting 2nd discussion is done to death.
I thought Gardy’s use of the bullpen was well done. He avoided using Bass/Boof. Like I said yesterday, Crain/Guerrier seem to switch off who’s good and who’s bad…and unfortunately they haven’t given that schedule to Gardy yet.
Good pitching can’t make up for errors, unless they K up everybody that comes to the plate. The bullpen looked good, and was punished by horrid fielding (can only give a team so many outs)
At least Gardy was able to keep innings to a minimum so they’re not all burned out for the Yankees series.
Good job by Breslow coming into a high-pressure situation and giving 3 good innings. (I don’t think that run scores if they turn the play to start the inning)
But I’ll defend Gardy for not going to Nathan in a tie game on the road. Because if he does that, you’re looking at Boof or Bass in a save situation.
Does anybody trust that?
The story of yesterday’s game was Retarded Monkey Circus Fielding. And the return of AISP.
The only question is, do we have to wait for Casilla’s return to get a change?
It’d have to be Harris at 2B. And while he’s had some troubles on Defense, it looks like Nicky’s turning back into a head case and its starting to affect his fielding.
When Punto’s on, he’s on. But then once he starts to struggle that’s it for him. I have no idea what it is…
It’s to a point where maybe Harris at 2B isn’t as big as a downgrade defensively as it was earlire this year.
The only downside is that it leaves Softtoss Everett at SS.
What would the defense look like if they switched up Harris and Everett. Brendan plays SS and Everett is at 2B. Everett’s throws won’t have to be as hard.
I said it yesterday, Everett has range but no arm….Harris has an arm but less range. So the question is if Harris bat compensates for the range.
Everett or Punto is going to be in this lineup until Casilla comes back. So it’s a matter of who’s bat would you rather see…
Great analysis, T. When you add up all the miscues, it’s fortunate we got out of there taking 2 of 3. Still, the Royals needed us to look absolutely Little League-esque just to secure a 12-inning win Sunday, so that hurt.
But you could expand it and say not only was Punto not alone…but the Twins were not alone (note the Baseball Tonight “Not Web Gems” segment from yesterday); the difference is, of course, those plays can be laughed at if they come in a winning effort, but not if you end up losing to the Royals.
Lost in the shuffle is Chicago taking two of three from Boston. With Joe C’s crowning of the Tigers and Jay Mariotti’s proclamation that the inevitable “collapse” is finally upon us from a little over a week ago notwithstanding, the White Sox appear to be the only team in our division who is comfortable on top. Oh well, if we keep winning at a .600 clip, the Wild Card will be available.
I have said this for 2 months. When Tolbert is healthy he will be back on the team. He has a better glove than Buscher and Harris and just as good of a bat, if not better. Everyone knew Punto would start sucking it up again. Everett and Lamb need to be gone. Our infield should be Tolbert at 2B, Casilla at SS and Buscher and Harris Platoon at 3B. At least for this year.
Until Casilla returns its gonna be a patch job. When Punto get mired in a rut, it’s so ugly. and always highly visible. Warts and all Harris plays 2B in my lineup for awhile. This will be controversial, but Gomez leads off, with Span in the 2 hole on my card for the time being, and then I hope Gomez only leads off in one inning per game.
“Everyone knew Punto would start sucking it up again.”
not sure this is true. there are a number of media people with dick b the leader that have claimed nicky is the next coming of the team savior.
this isn’t punto’s fault but gardy using him in a way he has always failed. part time he does a great job full time he fails.
dick b has time after time glossed over mistakes made by nicky while dumping on other players for the same thing.
i’ll say again this isn’t nicky’s fault but the front office for not getting any help (not only in the infield but someone to hit after morneau) and gardy not learning from past failings.
Jason, I compare Jay Mariotti to Patrick Ruesse. So that should tell you how much I value his opinion on things. 
And I bet I know one of the “Not” Gems that you’re talking about. (Phillies’ sac-bunt triple?)
As far as looking to the Wild Card, why shoot that low at this point? The Sox took two of three from Boston despite their bullpen woes (they’ve got the offense to make up for it)
There’s still three games against the Sox at the Dome at the end of the year. The Twins can play the rollercoaster see-saw game for the next month all they want, as long as they’re within a game or so by that series.
If the Twins are still this close by that point, I think they’ll be able to pull it together and take the Division. The only reason I don’t think the Wild Card is an option is because they don’t have any games left with Boston, which means they’d need to play well AND get help.
I’d rather see the Twins shoot for the one thing they can control and let the Wild Card come as a result of falling short of that…vs. aiming for the Wild Card and falling short of everything.
there are a number of media people with dick b the leader that have claimed nicky is the next coming of the team savior.
That’s why it’s a good thing the media has aboslutely no power over the roster. Unlike in New York.
One of the best, most even-handed posts I have ever read about Nick Punto! I agree with just about everything you wrote, Howard. I would say that Harris has picked it up vs. LH pitching, and would be a decent choice to hit second when he is in the lineup.
“That’s why it’s a good thing the media has aboslutely no power over the roster. Unlike in New York.”
I’m just extremely thankful that you blog commenters have no power over the roster. What a disaster that would be!!!
“Jason, I compare Jay Mariotti to Patrick Ruesse.”
Except when Reusse issues a whining complaint, it’s grounded with insightful, critical thinking, not spotlight-driven hot-headedness. Plus, Reusse actually shows up to cover the team now and again, something Mariotti finds too inconvenient. All that time hanging around in the clubhouse might screw up his hair or something.
Three weeks to Gopher football and we haven’t heard a word about it. Seems coach Brew went to the same marketing school Glen Mason did. Just a side note, sorry.
“That’s where I think the media is sometimes accurate in their discussions of how Punto is viewed by the fan base. Yep, he sucks. But even when everybody sucks, he’s somehow singled out. It really is riddiculous. You can’t pin this loss squarely on Punto’s one error.”
I agree, T. But I think part of Howard’s point is the way Punto responds when he sucks. You are right when you say that pretty much the whole team (except the pitchers) sucked yesterday, but Punto was by far the biggest sulker.
As for the fans, most of the people I’ve heard talking about the game are blaming Everett 100% and overlooking the fact that he was one of the few who came through with the bat yesterday. Outside of these blogs, it seems that everyone I talk to is in love with Punto.
As for the fans, most of the people I’ve heard talking about the game are blaming Everett 100% and overlooking the fact that he was one of the few who came through with the bat yesterday.
File that under “he knocks in two and lets in three.” Give Everett credit for owning up for his part in the loss. But he deserves a share of the blame, along with several others. This was a team defeat and too many people ignore that because Punto is a convenient and easy and mindless scapegoat.
Hey, Punto owned up to it, too…didn’t you see that bat and helmet toss after one of his many strikeouts? That’s acknowledging failure if you ask me.
“T brought up a great point (it happens, apparently) about Kubel’s inability to give Justin Morneau any lineup protection.”
When batting 5th in the lineup this year, Jason Kubel is hitting .268/.358/.439. I’d say that’s pretty decent. But I’m sure you will disagree.
I will disagree…the dude has what I would call good 7-spot in the order numbers…
this was the season he was supposed to “come into his own”. Turns out, it just doesn’t get any better than .264.
One of Kubel’s at-bats with the bases loaded yesterday was Punto-esque…he swung at three straight sliders that were pretty much all in the dirt. This is supposed to be Kubel’s time to shine–a stretch of games where he plays everyday for about a week and a half…so we better start seeing some shining against the Yanks.
Oh how I long for the days of nick punto not starting. That winning streak of 10 games was kind of fun when he was no where near the starting line-up.
Kubel is still their third best hitter (maybe 4th if Span maintains this OBP). He had a bad day. The issue is that Young isn’t good enough to make up for it when Kubes has a bad day (most of the time). Yes, Kubel was one of the biggest non-contributors yesterday, but he’s still league average for a DH, and is still their third best hitter this year.
That may or may not be a compliment to Kubel, or it may or may not be an indictment of the rest of the “hitters”.
“This is supposed to be Kubel’s time to shine–a stretch of games where he plays everyday for about a week and a half…so we better start seeing some shining against the Yanks.”
Because on the road trip he only hit .333/.391/.762 with a double, triple, 2 home runs, and 4 RBI. Hate to see a guy get the opportunity to play and put up those kinds of numbers…just terrible.
Kubel had a bad game. It happens. He has produced just fine for the Twins. I don’t know why you seem to complain about him so much. On the list of things that have gone wrong for the Twins this year, Jason Kubel isn’t near the top. In fact, I wouldn’t even put him on a list of things that have gone wrong. But it seems that every single day you make a comment about how Kubel is failing to produce, which just isn’t true.
“Kubel is still their third best hitter (maybe 4th if Span maintains this OBP). He had a bad day. The issue is that Young isn’t good enough to make up for it when Kubes has a bad day (most of the time).”
Guys, this is a joke. You say Kubel had one bad day–I say he had one good day (Aug. 5). I’m telling you, he’s not nearly consistent enough to be a 5-hitter. He is what Jacque Jones used to be–some pop in the bat, but consistently makes outs, thus, should be relegated to No. 7 in the order. And it doesn’t appear as if it’s going to change; he’s been given every opportunity to prove he’s a three or five hitter, he’s just not. And if he’s our third best hitter, then we’re in trouble. Our third best hitter is currently is Span, number four would be Casilla, and then Kubel.
You’ve heard me rip Cuddyer plenty on these blogs–but the one thing you have to give Cuddy is he did give us one year where he was consistent enough to be a productive 5-hitter…and even last year, when he regressed, he wasn’t totally out of place in that spot. Kubel hasn’t come close yet.
So you can cite these DH stats all you want, but the fact is Kubel is not good enough to protect Morneau in the lineup…teams are walking Justin to get to Kubes and it’s paying off. Not good.
5 Reasons The Twins Won’t Make The Postseason:
1) Nick Punto starting
2) Lack of a #5 hitter
3) Nick Punto batting second
4) Nick Punto not batting last
5) Nick Punto not having productive at bats.
WHo here is reconsidering adding Bonds to the lineup? NOw that would be a great No 5 hitter for us.
NOt prototypical Twins, but it sure would send a message to the AL Central
Twins need to ride out this season of rebuilding if they happen to make the playoffs that is a pure bonus..
FV&G, and then do what next year. Do you really think they’ll make a deal next year to get better?
You are much more likely to make it to the playoffs when you are contending, then you are next year (just ask Cleveland this year). Go all in and try to win…
“Go all in and try to win…”
With a jack-high?
No to Bonds. Who would he replace? Before you say, “Lanb,” you need to remember that Lamb doesn’t get that many ABs. If the Twins sign Bonds, he would take ABs away from some of the teams better hitters. The net gain would be small and not worth the fuss, IMO.
“Go all in and try to win…” what trades can Twin’s FO make right now to fix the holes at:
1)bullpen need a Neshek replacement
2)3rd
3)2nd
4)SS
5)oh and a right handed stud to bat 5th behind Morneau
yep I am sure FO can somehow win waiver claims on all 5 players to trade for them AND no other team will want 1 of our startering pitchers
this team is inexperienced next year NOGO,Young will be better Cuddy & Neshek will be healthy FO just needs to get a 3rd baseman and SS and the team is set to truly contend next year..
Punto is not an everyday player but he has Al Newman type value for the Twins. He can play anywhere, is a great defensive replacement and can usually put a bunt down when he’s required to.
I am a Twins fan who lives right down the freeway from the “Big A”.
Do a position-by-position comparison of the Angels and Twins.
Add in that the Angels play smarter, are more experienced and HAVE NO FEAR of the road, the Yankees or the Red Sox.
When the Twins young pitchers and outfielders gain experience, they will close that gap. If Cleveland-type injuries coincide with that timetable, that will be unfortunate, but its still the Twins best opportunity.
To deal good prospects for one or two players now will still leave the Twins gambling their Social Security Checks on a draw to an inside straight.
“can usually put a bunt down when he’s required to.”
either that was very dry sarcasm or you are mistaken as to the identify of one “little nicky punto”
I assure you the real LNP never met a bunting situation he could not screw up!
sane the Angels playing smarter wouldn’t have any bearing on the managerial skills of the 2 clubs now would it??
We may think they have a jack high, but I gotta ask you this.
If they are .5 game out, aren’t they more likely to make the post season this year than next? Anything can happen (as this year is proving, both in MN and CLE). They could regress next year (Young is worse this year than last, for example). They could suffer a key injury or two. Other teams with young players could see their players mature and get better. Other teams may add key players, while the Twins stand pat. Who knows?
They have a chance now. They should have gone all in before the trade deadline. Game theory is quite clear on this, when you have a chance to win, you are much more likely to win than starting over and hoping you play better next time.
Punto may not make contact with the ball on most occasions, but he did make solid contact when taking a hack at his helmet this weekend.
All that aside, Punto has pretty much soured on me. I wanted to defend him for the longest time. Mostly because of his Defense. Now he tends to make too many mistakes to offset that. What used to be “playing the game the right way” has become playing with a chip while sulking.
FIRE VAVRA & GARDY!!!! says:
August 11th, 2008 at 11:00 am
sane the Angels playing smarter wouldn’t have any bearing on the managerial skills of the 2 clubs now would it??
————————————–
You just brought up one of my favorite comparisons. The Angels and the Twins. I will continue to contend that Mike Scoscia (who is the best manager in baseball, hands down) and Gardy are very similar managers. They continue to field strong teams built on fundamentals and speed.
“the Angels playing smarter wouldn’t have any bearing on the managerial skills of the 2 clubs now would it??”
It has more to do with the Angels players are more experienced in MLB, more experienced WITH THE ANGELS, and their mistakes are less tolerated because their farm system and their finances are both loaded.
I am guessing that Punto and Gomez would only get 1-2 chances to make Sciosia look stupid, before they “slept with the fishes”, or at least picked up their travel packages.
The Twins don’t have the replacements available, that the Angels have.
FIRE VAVRA & GARDY!!!! says:
August 11th, 2008 at 11:00 am
sane the Angels playing smarter wouldn’t have any bearing on the managerial skills of the 2 clubs now would it??
I would say it has more to do with the angels buying proven veteran players, and shoring up weaknesses through trades during the season.
mike,
We do have a Jack-high, and the other players are showing even worse cards, but the draw may determine the outcome.
I would still not go “all-in” until I had a hand that had a REAL chance to win the pot.
Plus, we don’t “start over” next hand.
We retain good cards with a “good chance” to get better.
But if we have already lost all our money on the crummy “Jack-high” pot, we have nothing left to bet with.
I think that I am metaphored-out.
You’ve got to be kidding me!:
- but, that’s not the RIGHT WAY to do things. You can only be successful if you draft and develop guys (even if it turns out that is a myth, and most of your position players are guys you traded for, but aren’t veterans, or are vets past their prime or guys that never had primes).
Can I ask what on Earth the Angels have to do with the Twins? (Other than the fact that I doubt the Angels have lost 2-of-3 to Seattle at any point this year)
The Angels are running away with a weak division and the Twins are in a pennant race with another team that is 15 games over .500.
The Angels are in one of those weird positions in baseball–your postseason fate is basically sealed pre-September, so you’re biggest concern is staying fresh and ready for the postseason. Two weeks seems like a good time frame for that type of preparation, not six weeks. Thus, we could end up getting anything from the Angels in the postseason (and what I mean by that is we shouldn’t just assume that the Angels will be a force to be reckoned with come October).
The Twins, conversely, have the tough road of a playoff grind (although I’m still hoping they get it wrapped up with two weeks to go–might be wishful thinking), yet should be pumped and ready to go if they make it (2006 notwithstanding).
Player-by-player, the Twins have more talent–but as we’ve seen so often in baseball (most recently, Cardinals 2005; Rockies 2007), that doesn’t always equate to October success.
I meant, player-by-player, the Angels have more talent.
Sane, how will they get that hand?
We know they won’t sign a real FA.
I’m pretty sure they won’t trade for a guy in his prime.
They themselves have said the minors are pretty much barren of impact players.
What will be different next year?
I contend you cannot assume your players will get better faster than your opponent’s players (don’t forget, CLE got one of the top minor leaguers in exchange for their Ace…).
“Other than the fact that I doubt the Angels have lost 2-of-3 to Seattle at any point this year”
The Angles lost consecutive games against Seattle on April 11th and 12th.
mike,
“I contend you cannot assume your players will get better faster than your opponent’s players’
Odds are younger players with higher (admittedly not measurable) upsides should improve more and faster.
We have FIVE SP’s with little experience; and Casilla, Span, Gomez and Young with tools, but with limited grasp of the game.
That gives the hope for a great future and an obviously uncertain present. (evidenced by yesterday and the Seattle series)
Nothing is guaranteed, but I am happy that I invested in a 401K, even though I did have many chances to die young.
the team has far too many holes to do anything but be competitive.. that’s a great bonus in this rebuilding stretch.. the team could still make the playoffs as is right now.. I don’t see any possible trade that can be done that will enhance their chances
Here’s a topic no one has touched yet: I can’t believe Gardy is even considering pitching Perkins tonight. With all the emotion and lack of sleep involved with having a baby, he’s going to be totally spent. If he takes the mound tonight, it could be really ugly.
Pete D–do the Angels have a losing record against the Mariners?
ES16,
1) What are the options, if Perkins doesn’t start?
Bass?
I’d rather not.
2) How much sleep is Perkins going to get for the rest of the season, with a baby in the house?
exactly, sane. I look at it the opposite–he’ll probably pitch well since he’ll be working on pure adrenaline.
spam cf
casilla 2b
mauer c
morneau 1b
BONDS DH
young lf
kubel rf
harris ss
buscher 3b
yes i say bring in bonds-gomez has to sit, punto has to sit….i have never been all that big on bonds, but now i see him as the best that we could do this year to help this bunch put it together- damn if he has any pop left in his bat, its better than anything we have going now- besides it might just fire this whole team up to have a guy like bonds around….the guy does know how to hit and what a protection he would be for morneau……..bill smith hasnt come up with anything better, so this is my request and suggestion…. also bill needs go out and find a fresh arm for this bullpen before its too late….please dont let this season slip away because we didnt make a couple of player moves…..theres still a very good chance at a playoff series with the angels for a spot in the WS…
“So you can cite these DH stats all you want, but the fact is Kubel is not good enough to protect Morneau in the lineup…”
That may be my biggest argument with you. You refuse to look at the stats. People have tried to show you time and time again that Kubel is a valuable hitter on the Twins, yet you refuse to acknowledge it. You make claims like ‘Kubel can’t protect Morneau’, when it actually appears that he can. Complain about the number of doubles he has hit, instead of looking at his overall slugging total. Stuff like that.
I guess I should probably just let it go. You obviously won’t change your mind about Kubel unless he goes 1 for 3 or 1 for 4 every game with a double. Then he would be consistent enough for you and have the number of doubles you seem to want.
sorry mj1 the time to get a bullpen arm was BEFORE the waiver wire deadline.. any reliever that could help the Twins will never make it past all the teams for the Twin’s to make a claim..that’s just reality
If Perkins doesn’t start Gardenhire said that he will push Blackburn a day up
I’m not here to defend Punto. I’m here to tell you I’m not worried about Punto. Not because I think he’ll be ok, but because his bat is not what is going to, or supposed to win us games. Yesterday had at least 6 players to blame, including Punto. But I expect nothing out of Punto at the plate. I expect Kubel and Young to not strand so many runners. I expect (not really) Lamb to not be caught in no man’s land just staring at the play, instead of being at 1st base waiting for the throw from the pitcher. Yes, Punto had a terrible series. But who here is relying on Punto to take us into the postseason? Punto will make very few errors at any position, and he’ll hit around .240 for the rest of the season. With our other players, that is supposed to be enough from Punto. Yesterday, it wasn’t.
“Nothing is guaranteed, but I am happy that I invested in a 401K, even though I did have many chances to die young.”
Great straw man. Up until that point, I liked your argument.
But, you can’t ignore that KC and CLE have guys with high ceilings also. The guy CLE got for their Ace is about 100x better from a ceiling perspective than is Gomez.
I think we’ll disagree on this one. I’m with Torri and Johan, this team only ever plays for the future, and I don’t expect that to change.
I guess I just don’t see this argument being necessarily an “either-or” situation. Making a waiver trade or even bringing in Bonds (no I’m not suggesting they should) doesn’t mean you’re any WORSE in terms of being set up for next year. I don’t think anyone is suggesting you trade someone you’re counting on being a key component next year or the year after. Most waiver deals involve midling prospects or “players to be named later”.
If there are guys out there that can help the team compete this year, I say go for them… get them in here and let’s make a run at this thing.
These players will still be around next spring in Ft Myers and we’ll deal with next year next year. No reason you can’t do both and I really don’t think it’s going to destroy the growth potential of a Gomez or a Young to have them sit down occasionally.
it is good to know Howard’s plea that we “just remain calm” is being obeyed.
punto’s defense is invaluable most of the time, but he has no business in the 2 spot unless he in an occasional hot streak at the plate. he gotten the runner home from third with less than two outs like once in his last 6-7 chances…not sure why gardy doesn’t put on the safety squeeze to get those valuable runs home. harris should be in the 2 spot right now…despite average #s, he does generally put together patient, quality at-bats. this is a little out there, but perhaps everett in the 2 spot temporarily…he’s been hitting the ball some lately and does a great job getting the bunt down…
Twins need to go 25 - 20 rest of the way to reach the magic 90 wins and for me to change my moniker!!!
I personally think the sac bunt is overrated and overused, but there’s no excuse for a guy not being able to do it when it’s really called for.
I think Punto needs to go in to that 8-hole. I don’t usually quote stats based on low sample sizes, but here are Punto’s numbers this season when hitting #2, #8 and #9:
#2: 15G .190/.288/.362
#8: 16G .306/.340/.408
#9: 19G .292/.347/.385
The guy just seems to “try too hard” when he’s counted on at the top of the order, but when he’s down near the bottom, there’s less pressure and he hasn’t performed badly at all.
I’d be fine with Harris or Everett in the 2-spot. neither will likely do any worse than Punto has been.
Pete D–I won’t go through it all again; I can read statistics just like everyone else–as I said at the outset, with Kubel, the statistics show a solid No. 7 hitter. It’s been that way forever–the Twins were hoping he would upgrade to a 3 or 5; hasn’t happened.
He’s on pace for pretty much the same slugging and RBI total as a year ago, he’s hitting 9 points lower…I don’t see the need to defend that against criticism.
The best assessment is that it was a total TEAM effort loss. Several came into play that costs the Twins runs defensely or, lack there of, offensively. They are certainly too numerous to list. Just a total team effort loss.
I think Punto is feeling the pressure of playing everyday and, secondly, batting in the 2 hole. He is much better off the bench and in the 8 or 9 hole. You can put Gomez in that order as well. He is going backwards with regards to his hitting, not to mention his throws. Span is so much more advanced as a player right now……
I would play Buscher at 3rd, Harris at SS and Punto at 2nd, FOR NOW in hopes that Alexi can return fairly soon.
Everett in for late game defense….even though his last couple of games don’t so it…….
By the way, What roster change will they make when Alexi is ready? It won’t be Ruiz because they then would have seven infielders.
And doesn’t Cuddy have to be on the roster by Aug 31 to be included on any post reason roster, if that develops?
If Casilla is ready before the roster expansion time, all signs point to Everett being DFA’s
Yes, Cuddy needs to be on the 25 man roster by 8/31 to be eligible for the postseason.
The guy just seems to “try too hard” when he’s counted on at the top of the order
That’s pretty much it dead on. At the top of the order he starts to get it in his head the table is set for him (especially with Mauer and Morneau coming up next).
At the bottom of the order, there’s no pressure to drive guys in…instead he just needs to get on base.
There’s less pressure to get “the big hit” lower in the order.
But JC, how would those stats compare to Harris in the #2 spot? Could he maybe step into that role while Casilla heals?
and for me to change my moniker!!!
You’ll still call for Gardy’s head when he took a team that was supposed to be the worst in the Central and turned them into a contender? You’ll still call for Vavra’s head after the kind of offense they’ve been putting together?
If you want to assign blame, how about the FO for not having the faith in their team to be ready for this type of situation? The Twins turned into a contender and the FO was left with contracts to guys like Lamb that they just can’t unload.
Angels playing smarter wouldn’t have any bearing on the managerial skills of the 2 clubs now would it
The manager doesn’t stop short of 2B because he lost track of the count. Nor does he throw the ball into right field because he doesn’t realize there’s nobody at 1B.
do the Angels have a losing record against the Mariners?
That wasn’t your question, but you are the Artful Dodger afterall.
I think Kubel’s done about what I expected from him if he were given a fair opportunity to play. He and Young both had 2 bad games and 1 good game in KC. Unfortunately all three ran concurrently so the both tanked Fri and Sun.
It still just comes down to the Twins needing another RH hitter that’s a power threat. If you’re going to bat Mauer and Morneau back to back, you really don’t want Kubel coming up next… doesn’t matter to me if it’s #4, #5 or #6.
When you get to the last 3 innings of a close game and you’ve got the heart of your order coming up, you can’t just let the opposing manager trot his LOOGY (or his best bullpen arm vs LH hitters, whoever it is) out there and mow them down in order.
As for Kubel’s future. This is an interesting off-season coming up. He’s at the point in his career where he starts getting expensive and he’s going to be asking for a multi-year deal of some kind. I’m not sure the Twins are sold enough on him to pay what he’s going to be commanding. I won’t be at all surprised to see him dealt in the off season.
“The guy just seems to “try too hard” when he’s counted on at the top of the order”
Yeah cause he was on fire last year when he hit in the 8 and 9 holes.
Yeah cause he was on fire last year when he hit in the 8 and 9 holes.
Way to Dodge the numbers from this year. Quite Artfully even.
Going by last season’s numbers…why is Casilla here again?
I can read statistics just like everyone else–as I said at the outset, with Kubel, the statistics show a solid No. 7 hitter.
Major league 7 hitters this year have a collective OPS of .730 (OPS+ 96).
Kubel is sporting an .800 OPS (OPS+ 114).
5 hitters throughout the league have a collective .795 OPS (OPS+ 112).
Another example of reality not supporting your perceptions.
T,
The manager doesn’t stop short of 2B because he lost track of the count.
But the manager can take off the game the player who did that, dropped a ball from the RF, did not cover a base and had 4 strikeouts.
My argument against Gardy in this case is simple:
Nobody is twisting Gardy’s arm to keep starting Punto, batting him at the #2 spot, and pinch hitting for a guy who had 2 hits instead for Punto.
Same argument about the use of Rincon back then and Bass now on high leverage situations.
These players have limited talent and nobody can blame them because their talent exceeds by far that of any commenter on this blog. That said, the manager should understand their limitations and either do not use them or get them off the game. This is what successful managers do. Gardy does not do that.
And, btw, a lot of us predicted that the Twins will win the Central, during the preseason, so saying that this team “was supposed to be the worst in the Central” is just a personal opinion. I would argue that this team is actually barely surviving mismanagement by the manager and coaching staff.
Here are some things that I learned from the game Sunday. Some I already Knew.
It is a miracle that the Twins are competing for first place. Thanks to Gardy for this.
Punto, Everett, and Lamb are bench players. Under NO circumstances should should more than one of them be allowed on the field at the same time.
Put Span in center, Young in right, and Kubel in left. Send Gomez to the minors until he learns how to hit.
The Twins have got to have someone better than Punto, Everett, Lamb, or Ruiz somewhere in their farm system.
“Yeah cause he was on fire last year when he hit in the 8 and 9 holes.
Way to Dodge the numbers from this year. Quite Artfully even.”
I wasn’t dodging statistics…my point is he’s been awful at the top and at the bottom of the lineup. Heck, if anything he was better when he was at the top of the lineup more (2006). I guess I don’t see this as a lineup placement issue; I see this as a “Punto’s not very good” issue.
On Kubel, I cannot help but laugh when we hear from the Kubel supporters…see if this sounds familiar:
The last two years all we heard was “just you wait, he’s going to be an awesome hitter-minor league stats this-hits balls hard, that-etc. etc. etc…once Gardy ‘frees’ him, he’ll be a huge producer, blah blah blah…”
Now this year the refrain has shifted to:
“Why are you complaining about Kubel…look at his numbers, he’s a ‘decent’ DH.”
Decent, huh? I don’t know about the rest of you, but I’m not shooting for decent when it comes to having a power-hitting, run producing bat that can back up our former league MVP. In case you haven’t been paying attention, the White Sox hit three home runs yesterday in route to their win over Boston. They have guys up and down their lineup that can do what Kubel does in their sleep. So if what you’re saying is be happy with what we have because what we have is awesome, I say it’s time to go shopping.
If, however, what you’re saying is ‘give it time, he’s going to break out soon’, then my response is simple: How much more time do you need?
The time is now; Cuddy is hurt, Gardy has freed him…he needs to shut guys like me up by producing consistently once and for all…or stick him in the 7-hole and go out and get a power bat to fill the 5-hole.
“Pete D–I won’t go through it all again; I can read statistics just like everyone else–as I said at the outset, with Kubel, the statistics show a solid No. 7 hitter. It’s been that way forever–the Twins were hoping he would upgrade to a 3 or 5; hasn’t happened.”
Then you are reading the statistics wrong. The ‘average 7 hitter’ in baseball is hitting .259/.324/.407. So while Kubel has a batting average and on base percentage near that of other 7 hitters, his slugging percentage is 61 points higher. The average 5-hole hitter, in MLB, however hits .266/.339/.456. 6-hole hitters hit .263/.333/.432.
So at the end of last year, Kubel’s numbers looked very close to this year’s average 5-hole hitter, and this year he has put up numbers that would justify playing him in the 5 hole. He gets on base less than the average hitter, but hits for more power.
“He’s on pace for pretty much the same slugging and RBI total as a year ago, he’s hitting 9 points lower…I don’t see the need to defend that against criticism.”
I find it interesting that you think he is going to slug at the same pace as last year, but make the distinction that he is hitting 9 points lower. He is slugging 18 points higher. Why is 9 points in batting average significant, but 18 points in slugging isn’t?
Also, last year he averaged 1 RBI every 7.17 plate appearances. This year, it is 1 RBI every 6.41 plate appearances. But RBI are mostly a team dependent stat, and I don’t think they are a very good way to judge a player. But, if we are going to look at it, we can at least admit that he is on pace for more RBI than he had last year.
I see snepp said it much quicker, and more concise, than I did.
And, btw, a lot of us predicted that the Twins will win the Central…
I was simply stating what the opinion of the Vocal Majority was during the preseason. Since that tends to be the only opinion that matters.
It is funny to watch how the opinion overall has changed from the Twins being a cellar-dweller because of a cheap owner and idiot GM to being a contender struggling under the weight of an idiot manager.
Seriously, go back and read the comments. Anybody who figured the Twins would be where they are now was labeled a Kool-Aid drinker and pawn of the FO. Now the same ones doing the name calling are the ones chugging the Haterade that the team is winning despite what appears to be 90% of the organization. (Or at least anybody not named Morneau, Span, or Casilla)
Don’t bother with statistics against Jason, Pete. He’ll dodge the ones that prove him wrong and stick to the ones that point him right.
However contradictory it ends up being. I’m actually eager to see how he responds to your statistical comparison of Kubel’s numbers vs. the average #5 hitter.
Especially considering you use the only three he tends to understand (AVG, SLG, OBP).
“Punto, Everett, and Lamb are bench players. Under NO circumstances should should more than one of them be allowed on the field at the same time.”
Then exactly what is your starting 2B/SS combination when Morneau or Buscher are given a day off, if no more than one of those guys should EVER be on the field at one time?
Unless we’re back to the contention that guys don’t ever need a day off again, I think you pretty much have to accept that there WILL be days when two of those three will be on the field together.
The best part is, Morneau went to Gardy yesterday and asked for a day off in the field. Heck, I think the last time he DHed it was the same situation.
Boy, that Morneau. What a loaf.
I see snepp said it much quicker, and more concise, than I did.
You were much more eloquent though.
T, my response is simple: He must not be that imposing; the opposition is walking Morneau left and right.
You think the fact that Kubel happens to rank middle-of-the-pack among baseball’s five hitters will change that approach?
The only thing that will change that approach is when Kubel becomes a consistent producer (ala Cuddyer in 2006). You guys seem to think he’s already there, for some reason.
T,
I hear where you are coming from, but the issue is a bit more complex than the ‘vocal majority’.
The Twins’ fans and media accustomedly have fairly low expectations for this team. This is the group of people who ordained Gardenhire as a successful manager despite his 5-16 postseason record. As long as the fans and media are complacent and satisfied to have a team of also runs that might go to the postseason 50% of the time, this team will not be a winner.
Simply, the Twin Cities environment (media and fans) are not challenging enough for this team to succeed. Or rather, their definition of “success” is well below that of other environments, always excused by statements such as “the Twins are doing so much with so little” or “the Twin Cities is a small market team” or “look at the payroll of the other teams”.
Unless these excuses stop and there is a general expectation for this team to win, it will not win. I hope that, at least now that the taxpayers become major stakeholders to the success of this team, things will change…
Hear me out once again…….
I ignore Everett’s performance yesterday. He had two major unexpected contributions yesterday — the positive offense and the negative defense. So, it’s a wash with him.
The Twins are getting poor W-L results because they’re only producing 6-7 hits a game.
If you have lots of fancy electronic equipment in your super pickup truck, you need an extra battery under the hood. If you want to be a formidible pennant contender, you need adequate HR power on your club.
There’s not enough offensive energy on these Twins with only Kubel and Morneau as legitimate HR threats. They need another “battery”.
I am totally unchanged in my view that the Twins instantly would have had a chance for the WS this season and the following two seasons if they had picked up Beltre.
As I posted when the situation was ripe, they should have emptied the bank and got him. More runs scored means much less pressure on the pen — and Neshek is returning next year. (And yes, the could have picked up SOMEONE in the pen —– I see the White Sox just made another move!)
Beltre first, then acquire another bullpen pitcher. Is it still possible to do this? I think so. Who would claim Beltre on waivers with his high salary? I can’t think of anyone.
The least Bill Smith could do is tell us he’s trying to get Beltre but that he can’t clear waivers. Then I’d shut up about the whole Beltre thing.
So wait, first Kubel didn’t have the numbers to hit #5. But now it’s that he’s not TOP OF THE PACK for #5.
Does somebody want to break down Morneau’s numbers. I’m curious to see where he ranks in comparison to the league’s #4 hitters. Or for that matter, where Span ranks in regards to leadoff men.
It’s never going to be enough is it Jason?
“Boy, that Morneau. What a loaf.”
Bullshit.
Did you see Morneau try running the bases a few games ago, when he eventually had no chance to score so had to remain on 3rd?
His legs are hurting bad, T.
I think he was kidding about Morny, but that’s OK. Giving Buscher the day off doesn’t bother me as much as giving Morny a day off. We suffer at the plate AND in the field. We got third covered, but first makes me uncomfortable.
“You’ll still call for Gardy’s head when he took a team that was supposed to be the worst in the Central and turned them into a contender? You’ll still call for Vavra’s head after the kind of offense they’ve been putting together?”
The Blog Monitor strikes again!! LOL
when original thought is boring it is easier to instead poke at other commenters takes and then take a flying leap onto the “jumping to conclusions mat”
LOL T…
Scroll up, my friend…you were the one who started the Kubel bashing today.
What do you want me to say: We’re so lucky to have Kubel? I’m not going to say it.
Heck, Garrett Jones could probably put up the same numbers…
The least Bill Smith could do is tell us he’s trying to get Beltre but that he can’t clear waivers.
Bill Smith DID try to get Beltre. The price was too high. You dismissed that as an excuse.
(And yes, the could have picked up SOMEONE in the pen —– I see the White Sox just made another move!)
Too bad he likely only cleared waivers that day…thus meaning Chicago got first dibs.
this is nothing new nicky is always terible. even when he’s good he still looks bad. one day he’ll be gone and as far as i’m concerned it can’t be too soon. It woundn’t be so bad but Gardy gives everyone playing time like this is f***ing little league and he’ll never change. If there’s one flaw in gardy’s style it’s that he puts keeping everyone happy over putting the best possible team on the field.
His legs are hurting bad, T.
It’s called sarcasm romer. Morneau’s the Golden Boy around here. I know. Even in jest you can’t rip on him.
But THANK YOU for actually noticing when I said something critical of another player. Even if I had to be completely obvious and downright LIE to get it noticed.
you were the one who started the Kubel bashing today.
Yep. I said Kubel sucked on Sunday. I can’t control if you decide to take that as he is a terrible hitter total.
But like I told romer, thanks for at least taking notice that I’m capable of being critical of player performance.
The only thing that will change that approach is when Kubel becomes a consistent producer (ala Cuddyer in 2006). You guys seem to think he’s already there, for some reason.
You’re just like the guys on Rubechat who rail incessantly on Mauer for some illogical and unexplainable reason. There are much better places to direct your ire than one of the few guys that actually produce a little much needed power.
I would love to have a right-handed power bat hitting 5th, allowing Kubel to be one of the best 6th place hitters in the league. Unfortunately the team’s only option has spent the bulk of the year either hurt, or hitting like Punto. Beltre would have been a fantastic addition in every way, but probably not at the reported asking price.
I can live with Tolbert/Casilla as our middle infielders as long as we get a power hitting 3B. Maybe Beltre.
Heck, Garrett Jones could probably put up the same numbers…
Garrett Jones would struggle to put up Monroe’s numbers.
commenters takes and then take a flying leap onto the “jumping to conclusions mat”
What “jumping”? You said yourself that if they don’t make 90 wins you’ll still stand by your name.
I simply want to know how you can say that when earlier you had already said:
Twins need to ride out this season of rebuilding if they happen to make the playoffs that is a pure bonus..
I guess I don’t get what you’re rooting for here.
Oh, and again…nice use of Blog Monitor. And you want to get me for being unoriginal?
Some would argue the best thing Jones did for this team was his liner to Cuddy’s foot… /sarcasm (since apparently detectors are now broken)
“Heck, Garrett Jones could probably put up the same numbers…”
I know this is bait, but I’ll take it anyway.
Garrett Jones’ career minor league numbers are lower than Jason Kubel’s numbers in the majors this year - .252/.306/.439 to .268/.328/.468. Even his numbers this year at AAA are lower than what Kubel is doing in the majors. Jones couldn’t hit anywhere near what Kubel has done.
T, Casilla was a rookie. Players have been known to improve on their rookie numbers from time to time. I know, hard to believe. Talk about a dodge. (That said, Casilla’s LD numbers portend a gross dropoff in production at the major league level; he’s quick, but I don’t know about hitting-.330-on-groundballs quick.) Punto has an 6-8 year track record (depending on whether you want to include tiny stints his first two years a record) and 30 year olds generally aren’t in process of improving dramatically.
Punto’s career OPS batting…
1st: .528
2nd: .664
8th: .619
9th: .645
The thing that jumps out at me is… God he just sucks no matter where you bat him. The numbers this year are tiny sample sizes: 53, 68 and 72 PAs. There’s just nothing in it.
Re: Jason Kubel. Please stop talking about him as a potential everyday player. He cannot hit LH pitching, period. He is very-good-not-great against RHers. He’s having a far-above-career-numbers year against righties this year but his OPS+ there is still only 116. I think it’s indisputable that he hasn’t protected Morneau against RHers in the sense that they walk Morneau anyway, but why this upsets anyone I have no idea. This is handing runs to the Twins. Would I award him a new contract? No. But a 116 OPS+ is gonna produce a bunch of runs if he’s always getting a base runner in front of him. I think he should’ve been part of a deal for Jason Bay, but he ain’t terrible.
I’m not sure where the “The Twins are getting poor W-L results because they’re only producing 6-7 hits a game” is coming from, romer. I think they’re averaging almost 10 hits a game for the year, ranking them in the top 4-5 in the AL. Even on this mediocre road trip, they had double figures in hits 4 of the 6 games.
They sucked at the plate and in the field yesterday. It happens. I just don’t see it as indicative that such has been the case all season. I’d like Beltre or someone like him in the 5 spot, too, but not at the price Seattle appeared to be asking.
As for Morneau, the guy has played 117 games this year, 100 of them at 1B and 7 as the DH. Pretty tough to give him fewer days off when the team has only played 117 games. I would argue he could probably benefit from more, not less, rest. But I doubt he’ll ask for it.
I would love for the Twins to sign a top qaulity 3b and SS and have Tolbert and Harris as utility players, but it is not gonna happen.
Does Jones get negative numbers for taking out Cuddyer?
toby -
In 2005, Justin Morneau hit .205/.255/.331 in 165 PA versus left handers. In 2006 he hit .315/.345/.559. Last year he hit .228/.283/.411 against lefties. This year he is at .299/.345/.484.
Now, I’m not saying that Kubel is going to mash lefties like Morneau did in 2006 or even like he is doing this year. But I do believe, that given more at bats against lefties, he would learn to hit them better.
JENSEN:
I think it could still happen. The Diamondbacks traded three prospects for Adam Dunn just today.
“For now, however, Punto is the only healthy second base option…”
What, Machado ain’t healthy. It’d be for only 10 days to have him up.
I mean, if you wanna win the Division.
I meant —- What, Machado ain’t healthy?
Granted, it’s AAA, but you have to admit:
Garrett Jones:
.261 / 16 HR / 72 RBI
Sound familiar?
All I’m saying (and I feel like I’m saying it for the 1000th time) is Kubel has proven that he belongs in a MLB lineup, for sure…but he’s not getting it done in a prime lineup spot (No. 5). He’s just not. Not yet, anyway.
Gardy, by the way, seems to agree, which is why he continues to bench Kubel (sometimes in favor of rookies like Randy Ruiz) against lefties.
“They sucked at the plate and in the field yesterday. It happens.”
Yup, I know. But in the low-hit games, the “almighty HR!” can come to the rescue. And there’d be fewer low-hit games as Twins hitters would relax a little more knowing they have some decent punch in their lineup.
Of COURSE they have an excellent offense record this year with their 10 hits-per. But I’m focusing on the rest of the season when it will be hard to keep that constant chugging type of offense going.
The HR infuses energy.
Pete -
Yeah, but Morneau hit them okay in 2004 .240/.289/.427. It was more that he sucked overall in 2005 and then really came into his own then that he learned to hit lefties, per se. Sample size issues account for the variability.
Kubel absolutely COULD learn to hit lefties better if he was trotted out there day after day. Meanwhile, the Twins would lose baseball games, and why? So eventually his career OPS+ vs. left-handers could be 80 or 90 instead of 66? Like I said, he’s not terrible and I am NOT a hater — I like him fine against RH pitching — but he’s not great, never will be and really should’ve been dealt to the Pirates along with NoGo and Duensing/Swarzak for Bay.
Machado is a product of small sample size. I’m not sure what’s hard to understand about this. A fairly weak hitter (save for half a season in A+ ball in ‘04) did not suddenly become a beast because of a year on the shelf. His BABIP is .414. Probably still a better idea than LNP…
And Jason, it’s the same thing as your old Mauer batting 2nd tirade.
If Kubel is unsuited for 5th, then who is on the roster?
If Kubel is unsuited for 5th, then who is on the roster?
Michael Cud…
Err, Delmon Yo….
Derr, Adrian Bel…..
*shrug*
And the answer, T, is:
Doug Mientkiewicz, batting in the three-hole for the first time, is 3-for-4 with a double and 2 RBI against Pedro Martinez and the Mets…now batting .293.
Actually, I’m just kidding…I know that is the comeback, but heck, that’s for Bill Smith and the boys to worry about. The point is, I think a lot of fans were expecting Kubel to ease into that spot…
Rochester beat Indianapolis 5-4 this afternoon. Jason FREE ME Pridie was 2-4 with a double. Machado 2-4. Howie Clark and Garrett Jones homered and had multi-hit games. Luke Hughes 0-4 w/3 Ks, Trevor Plouffe 0-4. FREE RICKY BARRETT stranded the runner he inherited and gave up no runs although he did face 9 batters in his 1 2/3 IP. 3 hits and 2 walks were minimized by 3 Ks. Ah, the power of striking out 1 in 3 batters faced… Korecky pitched two innings of 1 hit ball and struck out 1 to get the win.
toby -
Well, there is the current squad, and the future squad to also worry about. So giving Kubel at bats against lefties would help the future squad. And as far as this year goes, who are your other options for DH? Kubel’s career numbers against lefties, including this year, are .213/.295/.328. Before Monroe was released, he was hitting .138/.219/.230 against lefties. Mike Redmond? .280/.302/.320. Randy Ruiz? 30 year old career minor leaguer. I just don’t see any other alternative that is worth playing over Jason Kubel.
As for trading him for Jason Bay, I would have had no problem with that. Bay is a great player, and a right handed bat as well. But that didn’t happen, so I’m not too concerned about it.
Have Casilla and Tolbert played any games in rehab yet?
“Bill Smith DID try to get Beltre. The price was too high. You dismissed that as an excuse.”
I have no idea what you mean, T. (You seem especially full of it today.)
I said they should have broken the bank and that they had an instant chance at getting successive WS appearances.
I’m sure Bill Smith was making somewhat standard good judgment in wanting to keep Perkins and the rest of the high demand the M’s were making.
Ny point is, GM Smith and his Twins will probably never have an opportunity like this Beltre one EVER AGAIN.
So, the M’s wanted — and want — more than Perkins, Buscher and Revere?
Smith could have kept Livan (dumped Bass) or dumped Livan (bring up Mulvey) and used either of Livan/Mulvey and Boof as the #5 candidates. Pretty risky, but worth a shot if you have a stellar lineup (with Beltre) and you also had gotten a Hawkins and you are looking at WS possibility for years to come.
A no-brainer.
Unless they wanted Perkins AND Span, for instance (which as far as I know wasn’t the case).
Howard, I thought you had two XM radios? What’s the deal with the local stations?
lol, good call, Dobs.
Christie, Casilla isn’t necessarily expected to play rehab. Gardy may play him batting right handed only, for instance.
Don’t know about Tolbert. But offensively, he’s merely another Harris with less power (fewer doubles, fewer HR’s). Of course, defensively, he replicates Punto. So why would the Twins need him?
Bc he (Tolbert)is a switch hitter who is much faster than Harris. Their bats are about the same, but Tolbert can play all three infield positions better than Harris.
Grass is always greener on the other side. You fans also think there is someone better at AAA or wherever….
Twins have done much better than expected. I won’t trade any of the top five starters in the rotation…….
Three guys I hope are not on the team next year: Punto, Everett, and Lamb.
Punto plays like a rookie who never learned to do the little things in the minors. How Gardy likes this helmet tossing guy who can’t even cover the bag on a routine play is beyond me.
Tolbert is better then Punto both at the plate and in the field because he learned to do the little things right and he has a consistent approach. There is no way Punto is a better hitter than Tolbert.
Everett is OK but he is no wiz either. Casilla is a wiz. And Lamb, well, is Lamb. Macri, Hughes, or Valencia would be an upgrade over Lamb chops.
Rivas-Mientkiewicz connection huge as Pitt. looks to rally in 9th…Rivas singled followed by great at-bat by Dougie–ends in a walk; Pirates 1st and 2nd, one out, trailing by one in 9th.
Tolbert started rehab in Florida late July. He has been taking batting practice and the Twins are handing the situation as wait and see
Casilla has been swinging a bat with little effect from the right side, however he still has pain when swinging from the left (as of last weekend). There is a thought for him to be hitting exclusively right handed until the pain subsides.
One think that it is different between Everett, Punto and Lamb:
Everett looks like he is having fun playing the game. The other 2 mop and whine. Huge difference in clubhouse environment.
Pete - Ruiz can hit, esp. LH pitching. He’s proven that year in, year out in the minors. That’s never been an issue. His total inadequacy in the field makes it weird he wasn’t dealt to an AL org. sooner than he was. Will he strike out a lot against RH pitching. Yes. So? There’s no way his OPS v. LH drops .300 points just because he’s facing major league pitchers, which it would have to to make Kubel the right choice against southpaws.
I’ll say it again: Lamb will be okay the rest of the way. His numbers this year have suffered from bad BIP luck. Should they have acquired him at the price? Absolutely not. But he’s better than he’s looked thus far, at least at the plate.
Thrylos: I don’t see Lamb being the whiner Punto is. Not even close. He seems stoic to me.
toby, agreed. By far Punto is much more of a whiner than Lamb. Lamb just mops. He doesn’t look like he is having fun out there…
I see him as taciturn, which I guess “isn’t having fun”, but Morneau doesn’t look like he’s having fun, either. I think Lamb’s a pro and I think he will probably contribute offensively the rest of the way. I was never as down on getting him as I was on Everett and Monroe (the latter was ALWAYS baffling). Everett’s had nice at bats lately, actually, and if it weren’t for his freaking arm I’d be happy to be wrong.
I’m not sure where the Lamb=whining/moping comes from either. Has he said he’d like to play more, when asked about it? Yeah, probably. What’s he supposed to say, that he DOESN’T want to play more? We had a 3B like that last year. No thanks. Lamb has accepted his role like a man and been willing to do whatever he’s asked. Doesn’t mean he’s a great ballplayer but he doesn’t throw tantrums and he doesn’t stand up at the plate and watch strike 3 go by him time after time.
toby -
I don’t know about Ruiz. He has good minor league numbers, but he has always been MUCH older at his stops. He was 27 when he played AA ball for the first time. Didn’t make AAA for another 2 years. He should be crushing the ball - he’s years older than most of the guys he is playing against. I have to think that if he could hit big league pitching, he would have been up in the majors some time before this year. There are terrible fielders all over the league - why wouldn’t Ruiz get the chance? There is something there that makes me reluctant to think he can succeed against big leaguers.
Dobs,
Didn’t take my car! Put 1,000 miles on a weekend-rate Kia Rondo instead of the XMobile.
Ruiz’ career had several issues:
a. he had played mainly for NL teams who were reluctant to give him a position in the field.
b. For most of his minor league career he played in the Philies organization and was blocked by the likes of Ben Broussard, Petie Rose Jr and Ryan Howard at every level above him
c. he tested positive for steroids in 2005, practically making him a traveling wilbury in 2006 and 2007, changing 5 organizations in 2 years.
This year in spring training he had better numbers than Monroe, but the FO decided to give Monroe the RH DH job, despite the contract clause that would have made him a free agent in ST if he was cut by the Twins with no financial considerations. Ruiz bashed both RH and LH pitching in the minors and can do the same in the majors. He just can’t play the field (but big Papi can’t either - and I am not saying that Ruiz is Ortiz…)
b. above should read “Cinci and Phillies”
Pete, I believe Ruiz ran into some PEDs test failure issues a couple or three years or so ago.
Difference between Gardy and Sciosa: Sciosa immediately brings somebody who screws up (when they shouldn’t) to task and sometimes very publicly, like in the dugout. Let’s face it, the only reason LNP IMO continues to get trotted out there is because the color of his nose ain’t chartreuse, you get my drift? And IMO Gardy will and should never be considered the equal of Sciosa because he fails that objectivity about players test and makes other questionable managerial decisions.
Whoever said whenever LNP plays as a starter over long stretches makes him anxious to be a hero hit the nail right on the head. Although I disagree with whoever said he is trying to swing for the fences in the #2 hole. I don’t disagree with the blogger that might be what LNP is trying to do. I disagree with LNP if that’s what he is trying to do…his goal should be to get on base, not GIDP, not otherwise make an out, so that M&M have someone(s) to drive in.
Howard, you deserve a medal or something for keeping this a civilized blog considering all the discussion about LNP (LNP is to a blog as throwing sticks of dynamite into is to a wildfire).
Glad to hear the KC radio announcers were bland and civilized. This six game road trip has been by far the worst of the entire season so far for those of us who have to rely on the MLB package for our Twins fix.
The first three games had this old, fat guy to whom FSN NW and/or the M’s should spell out the word RETIREMENT in no uncertain terms. Bad enough when you get the visiting team’s guys all mixed up, he didn’t even get the M’s players names right! He was a bit dyslexic with numbers too.
But the topper was Splittorf who had always been one of those bland, civilized Royals announcers. Other than an annoying voice (didn’t think it was possible to have an annoying Midwest accent, but he does) he was talking smack on Sunday or at least as close to smack as a Royals announcer dares to come. Gee Paul, last time I checked your team was still fighting the Tribe for the basement!
Howard had something to do with it. But Punto did too. As long as Punto battled his tail off, there was a contingent of fans who forgave his poor play and defended him in the blogs. But when he started whining and tossing his helmet and generally acting like a jerk, his defenders left his side. Monnesotans can tolerate mediocrity or even suckitude as long as it’s done with class. But when you also whine and carry on like a big baby, Minneostans will unite against you.
great stuff cmat, great stuff.
I apologize for skipping to the bottom
here to make a comment since the same
thoughts probably have been made above, but…………… I also made the trip to K.C. with 3 buddies, and in my opinion, the Twins looked lackluster all 3 games. My biggest observation is
that Punto is a disgrace, and should only be playing 1 day/week or as a
late inning defensive replacement. I know Gardie LOVES him since he appears to be “hustling,” but on Sunday, for instance, he had NO chance of getting any type of production. I also was very
disappointed with Gardie on Sunday:
sure the Twins blew a lead, but he played the latter innings as though the
Twins were already beat. It was remarkable that Breslow made in through 2 innings, but when he went out for his 3rd inning, everyone knew the Twins had
given up. Bass and Nathan were both available, and sure they might not have
worked out, but at least make an effort,
Gardie! To spend good money and stay til the end, and have Gardie manage like that, is something I’ll think twice about doing again. A win is a win-
be it against the Royals or Yanks, and
it appeared that Gardie just gave up.
Any thoughts?
cmath, “Monnesotans”? A typo?
I think not……..(as in “monotonous”).
ha-ha!
What do you guys think about the Kielty pickup?
Back to LNP for a sec, it’s hilarious how he thinks he’s JMauer, looking at and patiently waiting for his pitch to hit. Should Vavra show him a tape of himself “looking at” the first two pitches, immediately in the hole at 0-2, and a guaranteed SO? I’ve said it before, swing at the freakin’ pitch, you AH, it can’t be worst than what will happen anyway, a SO looking!
Well, maybe it can, if Span is standing on 1st, guess he could GIDP. 
Inside Edge scouting service on ESPN reports that when Sir Sidney has thrown more than 185 pitches in his previous two starts combined, he has been dreadful. He threw 191 in his last two starts, so hopefully the Twins will do better against him tonight than previously. Of course it means Gardy and the Twins actually read the scouting reports.
Before the first Seattle game, the service reported that Ichiro was having real trouble lately against lefties. So who did Gardy keep IBB? And who did he keep throwing to two batters later? Yeah, both their names start with I but…
Ugh, Longoria is now on DL also, will give the Yanks some hope. Come on Twins, they’re in YOUR house tonight!!
Howard, Good post. I especially enjoyed your take on the Bible wisdom!! LOL.
Though I will take issue with writing off Mauer in the 2-hole. Gardy started the season out that way, then reverted. Perhaps we need some ESPN talking head to write a column about getting Mauer in the 2-hole.
That seemed to work for having Nathan enter a game before the 9th.
Enjoyed this post. Right on thinking.
Howard, I’d love for you to address the business side of this game, to further educate all of us.
Often you’ll hear people lament that baseball is a business. But why? It’s like every other organization in life, trying to allocate its resources most efficiently.
The business side of the game makes the whole sport (and the Twins) that much more interesting. T-Mouse is on the record for seriously questioning whether Bill Smith is the right guy for an MLB GM role.
I am not picking nits or looking for flaws. The answers are right here in the Bill-Jamesian numbers. Why pay up for older players with lagging numbers? From Livan to Monroe to Everett to Lamb, Smith’s early actions suggest he supports this foolishness.
Here’s a column topic:
Scott Baker $0.42 million
Nick Blackburn $0.39 million
Francisco Liriano $0.41 million
Kevin Slowey $0.40 million
Glen Perkins <$0.20 million
TOTAL $1.82 million
Adam Everett $2.80 million
Mike Lamb $3.50 million
Disastrous misallocation of funds for a team that must use every dollar smartly. These are not unrelated — they are very related. The signing of vets w/ deteriorating numbers for HIGH salaries. . . let’s hope Smith cracks open Moneyball.
T-Mouse (That Roared)
The only players you get for 400,000 are kids that you bring up through your system where you pay them on the cheap during their indentured servant years. Everett and Lamb were not paud “HIGH salaries”. 2-3 million is dirt cheap for anyone who’s outside his arbitration years and Lamb, in particular, was probably the best 3B option available If Smith had tried to get by with nothing but kids to start the season, he’d have been crucified here.
It is almost unanimous, however. Either Smith is stupid for not signing enough FA veterans or he’s stupid for signing any at all when he should have somehow “known” that Span, Casilla, Buscher and Tolbert were all going to be productive major league players.
Were’ Monroe, Everett and Lamb good signings? Monroe certainly didn’t work out. Everett may still turn out to be productive (not sure where the Twins would be after Casilla’s injury without him) and Lamb is starting to hit the way some of us expected him to when he was signed. He’s certainly a far cry better than any bench player last season.
“Disastrous misallocation of funds”? Nothing like exaggeration. The team is $15+ million UNDER last year’s payroll and close to 20 mil under what they were prepared to spend this year. Not even close to disastrous and, I’d argue, not even a misallocation of funds at all. You sign some reasonably priced free agents in the off season to fill holes you expect to have. As the season goes along, you find out some decisions work out and some don’t.
I’m pretty sure the franchise is going to manage to avoid any catastrophic financial “disaster” this summer.
JC, thanks for the financial recap…I was thinking just the other day how much money Smith had to play with? Minus Johan, Torii and Silva and even with the long term deals for Justin and Cuddyer, I thought they had saved aome significant money. Thanks for confirming.
Certainly more than enough to pick up bullpen help. If not willing to do that, I do hope they bring up a pitcher from Rochester. Maybe a Mulvey or Humber is not good to go as a SP but surely they can pitch 1 or 2 innings?
I thought when the camera caught that dazed look on Perkins’ face during the Seattle debacle that maybe it was an important learning moment for him. One can only hope — that seemed like a more focused Perkins on a mission out there tonight. One can also only hope that the Twins don’t miss the postseason by a game or two. There will be so many “what ifs” if that happens.
Jason, why, like an idiot, do you sit there and incessantly rip Kubel for being an inefficient #5 hitter??? He’s NOT our #5 hitter. Cuddy is our #5 hitter! Get it? The problem is–if you don’t know yet–Cuddy’s been on the DL for two months. Thus, in a logical world, he CAN”T perform as our #5 hitter. Get that?
And, Kubel’s .270-20-75 by year’s end will be quite sufficient for a #6 hitter.
So put it to rest already, moron. You’re bias is indicative of someone who has been personally scorned by the man. Now, did Kubel sleep with your girl or what?
Great and excellent stuff after 6:00 on this blog tonight.
Kudos to Beisbol, J. Crickket, and — barely — T-Mouse.
Beisbol was a prophet tonight: “…hopefully the Twins will do better against him tonight than previously” referring to the Ponson two-successive-game pitchcount thing. Thanks for casting your spell, Beisbol. You get the game ball.
“Either Smith is stupid for not signing enough FA veterans or he’s stupid for signing any at all when he should have somehow “known” that Span, Casilla, Buscher and Tolbert were all going to be productive major league players.”
So of course, J. Crikket, Smith is not stupid for either (which was your gist). But he’s still stupid (as far as I know) for not “signing” Beltre. I’m still going to the mat on that one. Yet, thanks for all the rest of your wise 10:54 post.
“Often you’ll hear people lament that baseball is a business. But why? It’s like every other organization in life, trying to allocate its resources most efficiently.”
And you went on, T-Mouse, to essentially disclaim this very statement. And you did a good job at it! Kind of a self-troll deal. (Been there, done that…..) I loved your entertaining payroll comparison of the 5-core starters v. the “older players” FA signings. [But of course it was an apples-and-oranges thing —- and Crikket met your challenge.]
Yet, T-Mouse, there comes a time with every organization “trying to allocate its resources most efficiently” when it can wisely engage in venture capitalism. (I remember when the state of Minnesota was the venture-capital “champion” in the 1970’s.)
Yeah, I’m ringing the Beltre bell again.
:(>
Lala72, please don’t call Jason an idiot. He’s only being ignorant.
Kubel remains the #1 2008 HR-producing Twin, producing round-trippers at a faster rate than Morneau. And additionally, he’s second only to Morneau in the RBI production rate category.
Of course, there’s no comparison since Morneau plays every day while Kubel sits against formidible lefties.
But there’s really no comparison between Kubel and any other Twins player (beside Morneau) this year either. Kuebel’s the second most powerful bat on this 2008 club, and the perfect DH we all desparately lamented for last year.
ATTENTION KUBEL TROLLS:
Go screw yourselves.
P.S.
Technically, Monroe was producing RBIs at a faster rate than Kubel. But with a low sample size (163 AB’s) and his .202 BA, Monroe is history now and on the ash-heap of any analytical stats arguments.
The Twins 4-Core (without Liriano): still holding a 3.86 ERA
The New-And-Improved Liriano: 2.31 ERA (Right? Since his return)
The RH 3-Core (without Liriano and Perkins): 3.80 ERA
The 5-Core (including the New-And-Improved Franchise): 3.82
My proposed 4-Core (without Perkins after they trade him for Beltre, and with the New-And_improved Franchise): 3.75 ERA
But then, admittedly, there would be that pesky 5th starter problem. (I still say go with Bonser and/or Mulvey.)
But in any case, is the current Twins 5-Core’s ERA (3.82) any worse than any other AL team’s “5-Core”’s?
**Yes, I just double-checked. Liriano has allowed 3 ER’s in 11.666 innings since his return = 2.31 ERA.
