Questions, answers, wisdom from Section 220
Posted on August 28th, 2008 – 9:04 AMBy Howard
OK, baseball is good again. (See, it doesn’t take too much to keep me happy.) Work got in the way of watching too much of the early going yesterday, but I saw everything from the Span throw home through the end. Yeah, it was more difficult than it had to be, but at this stage of the season a win is a win is a win. Nice job, Baltimore. Nice job, Brian Buscher.
Interesting “strategy” in the eighth, using Buscher (4 for 31 against lefties) vs. the Seattle reliever Cesar Jimenez (18 for 54 against lefties). Weakness vs. weakness, huh? It was funny, under the circumstances, to read about Gardy admitting to Joe C. that the Twins didn’t see the lefty Jimenez warming up because their view from the dugout was obstructed. Funny because everything worked out, anyway.
Now, on some topics people have raised…
***A few people have asked my thoughts about the current use of relief pitchers — the whole ninth-inning/Joe Nathan thing. Here’s my deal: The best bullpen aces of a generation or two ago (Sutter, Wilhelm, Face, Worthington) were expected to go for more than an inning, sometimes coming in as early as the seventh. In 1984, when he had 45 saves for St. Louis, Bruce Sutter pitched 122 2/3 innings for the Cardinals.
That was also the last effective year of his career. He lost three games in the final couple weeks of the season and there were concerns at the time about how much he was being used.
We can glamorize Sutter’s career, but his ERA was over 4 in four of his last 5 seasons. He was pretty much cooked at age 31.
That being said, Gardy has no reason not to call on Nathan for more 1+ jobs over these final weeks. The Twins don’t have a lights-out bridge between their starters and their closer, as much as they have a group of guys who are worth the risk because they’ve been pretty good most of the time and excellent at other times. Also, in the seven-innings-from-a-starter-is-a-great-success world, games are typically looked at as three-pitcher affairs.
But if Gardy follows my suggestion, I want Nathan ready to start the eighth inning and expect two full innings. That way, he comes in with bases empty and in a situation that most resembles the way he’s accustomed to being you. I don’t see the point of, basically, saying: “OK, big fella, let’s see how that 1.11 ERA holds up with runners on second and third and one out.”
At home, the Twins could break open a game or two in the bottom of the eighth and allow someone else to pitch the ninth. At other times, if he’s in too-many-pitches territory, the Twins can use Eddie Guardado to finish up. He’s been there, and I think he has a few saves left in that arm, despite his struggle yesterday. If Nathan goes two full innings, that means Eddie is the next day’s closer.
***So what happens when Cuddyer returns? It’s clear that Denard Span has taken Cuddyer’s spot in right field, for 2008 and probably for the future as well. For the rest of this season, Cuddyer will be a right-handed bat and the right fielder when Gardy needs to put Gomez on the bench. It’s totally clear that the Twins anticipated outfield of the future is Young/Gomez/Span — with the question being whether Cuddyer can bring something needed in trade or settles in as a fourth outfielder/right-handed DH.
And, frankly, if the Twins indicate that they’re comfortable with Buscher’s defense at third, if I were Cuddyer, I’d be taking a lot of ground balls during the winter and offering up my services in the infield, too. You can’t blame the Twins for signing him to the three-year deal last winter because — and we all need reminding of this now and then — nobody saw this coming from Span.
***A couple of days back, someone asked whether it’s hard for beat reporters to ask “tough” questions of players and managers. The agenda behind the question was Nathan’s use. Just like it’s hard to compare relievers from the ’80s and today, it’s probably not fair to compare the conditions that writers work under. The beat writers in the Twin Cities serve their readers well. They have license to be more opinionated than we did (the blogs and their TV/radio appearances are good examples) and Joe and LaVelle wield their authority and expertise responsibly.
They know the game and describe things well. When it comes to trades and signings and the like, they may appear “wrong” more often than pre-Internet writers because of the 24/7 demands of contemporary media. Back in the day, I had a night-time deadline for something you saw the following morning. I could be certain of something at 2 p.m. and know it was total bull at 8 p.m., and nobody outside the office would know. It’s like the difference between my old Ford Pinto and my Scion xB. Yeah, they’re cars, but what else do they have in common?
As a journalist, it’s still a thrill to see the beat writers get wired and fired up for a big story — like when LaVelle was working the room, as discreetly as possible, on the day of the Twins media luncheon in January because he’d been tipped to the Morneau signing that the Twins were planning to announce later in the day.
Everyone second guesses writers for the teams they follow — editors, readers, players, colleagues — because they’re sure they’d do the job differently. But there’s no doubt that LaVelle and Joe are the tip sheet for anyone who follows Twins baseball. Would you really want to rely on Team FSN for what’s going on?
***If I could pick a road trip to make because of the other team’s park, where would I go? Angels Stadium is beautiful and Safeco is great too. I’m intrigued by what the rehabbed Kaufman Stadium is going to be like in Kansas City, because the current park is still very nice, and I’d like to see Camden Yards and Coors Field. One thing I’ve learned in going on the road: Buy tickets on the phone through the team’s ticket office rather than on the web. You get good advice that way and better seats.
***I’ve heard chatter about the White Sox-Red Sox series this weekend and who should Twins fans root for? The Red Sox to help with the division race or the White Sox to help with the wild card. No brainer. Cheer for the Red Sox. Win the division and let everything else settle where it should. If the Twins win enough games, they’re playing October baseball regardless of what the Red Sox do.
That’s all for now. Go ahead and disagree. That’s part of the deal. And I’m glad to collect questions for another time.
West Coast game tonight. Rest up.
172 Responses to "Questions, answers, wisdom from Section 220"
Good stuff Howard. Would I want “team FSN” to be responsible for letting me know what is going on? No…except for Marney Gellner. Now, did my pitching performance yesterday earn me a “every 5th day starter” role? I really felt I got after it.
funny gardy and his staff don’t know who’s warming up. kind of their jobs isn’t it? couldn’t they get that info from a base coach?
i like the idea of nathan pitching in the 8th if the “meat” of the order is up. use our best against their best. if need be then eddie can pitch the 9th against the bottom of their order.
we’ve seen our 2-4 best often fail this season against the other teams best in the 8th. that’s cost us a handful of games.
Nice job with the line up yesterday, Howard. They really battled their tails off and got after it.
Twins fans are very fortunate that we get not just one, but, three blogs to keeps us informed from the Strib. Thanks to you, Joe C, and LEN III.
Thanks for answering my question. I think they generally do a goo job, especially compared to some of the stuff I read on other web sites for other teams. The genesis wasn’t so much about the quality of their work (though I certainly was/am frustrated they didn’t ask about the use of Nathan after Gardy didn’t do what he said), but more a curiosity of how hard it is to be around someone for 6 months, and have it be your job to be critical (in the true sense of that word, not the negative conotation it has today). I’m not sure I could do that job and maitain any semblence of a good relationship (though I could learn).
I’ll say that generally, greatly, they are good about updating their blogs. La Velle was especially good during the draft. That additional work must at times be less than thrilling to do.
I agree Howard I think both Len3 and Joe do a very good job of covering the team and aren’t afraid to make predictions based on what they know especially Joe. I’m not sure if the FSN crew does any research at all some guy asked LaPanta what happened to Lew Ford yesterday and he had no clue. As for using Nathan in the eighth inning i know Gardy said he would start using him but so far he’s only done it once so I’m not sure what situations he’s waiting for.
Plunkton, I felt you should’ve just beaned Ibanez rather than give up that homer. I felt BC would go ahead and make the middle finger call and have you drill him. Either way, Meat, good enough. I’d say Howard’s Fighting Sinkers did a fair job.
Another field, I would suggest Howard is the new Busch Stadium. I made it to the old one the last year it was around, and the new one looks awesome. Also, you can never leave Wrigley off that list.
I hope they don’t deal cuddyer in this offseason, they won’t get much for him at this point. I’d still say its too early to bank on Span. We all know there have been a LOT of twins that had standout years and then were done. Guzman, Mientki…. Doug, Cuddyer himself, LNP. I’d like to see a healthy Cuddyer come back and battle it out with Span and maybe even Gomez for an outfield spot. There is no reason that Span couldn’t play center field with his speed. It actually seems to be a better suited position for him, and then Cuddyer and Gomez could fight for right. With any luck, everybody pans out and then the Twins have the option to trade one of the extra pieces and get something of value in return.
“It’s totally clear that the Twins anticipated outfield of the future is Young/Gomez/Span”
Why can’t it be Young/Span/Cuddyer? At least for next year? Gomez has been brutal pretty much all season. He’s averaging nearly a strike out a game - which would be fine if he hit for power and could take a walk. But his k to BB walk is 6:1. Even his defense could use a lot of work. He takes terrible routes on balls, and is only saved by his speed. He could really benefit from some time in AAA.
If I’m the Twins, I look at an outfield of Young/Span/Cuddyer next year, with Gomez starting the year in AAA.
Risky: Getting Nathan ready an inning early will result in considerable wear and tear down the stretch. I’m not sure it’s worth the risk. IMO, if the starters keep getting us to the eighth, I see no need to use Nathan until the ninth. If the starters continually come out after six or fewer innings, it might be necessary. But the Twins now have enough arms to piece it together in the eighth. I wouldn’t want to play for just this game or this year and risk the rest of the season or the rest of Nathan’s career (four more years on this contract) for the sake of winning this game. You said yourself, it ruined Bruce Sutter’s career at 31.
Howard,
I agree with you that if Nathan is used more, he should start the 8th. He has shown that he isn’t comfortable when entering games with men on base.
“OK, big fella, let’s see how that 1.11 ERA holds up with runners on second and third and one out.”
This wouldn’t effect his ERA at all since the runs would be credited to the previous pitcher. Nathan would get the BS however.
Pete D is right i think Gomez may have won the CF job in ST but he definetly hasn’t played well enough to keep it and sending him down wouldn’t hurt him. I think Pridie also derserves a chance to see what he can do.
Sweetytone,
I believe he was just referring to the fact that the ERA implies he is a dominant pitcher, which he is, but that his dominance has been established in situations where he isn’t inheriting any runners. I’m sure Howard has enough baseball-watching years under his belt to understand the concept of the earned run.
Everybody on FSN is terrible, even Bert gets old. ——–The Twins lack of power is really starting to show.They will be dreaming about blowing another chance to win it all this winter. The Pohlads are happy they got the stadium and now they sit on their hands, like THE WILD!!!
I think I’d like to see it be Span/Pridie/Young next year, frankly. Gomez needs time to learn to hit and throw, and the team appears to be good enough that he should be learning that in the minors, not up in MN.
I agree with MWW… NoGo needs to learn more in AAA before taking on a full time position with the big boys.
I was glad Howard dove into some of the topics he did today re: the media and baseball reporting.
Pat Reusse wrote a column a couple months ago where he basically said that although the local newspaper days appear to be over, we still couldn’t get by without the great day-to-day reporting from (enter beat writer(s) for teams A, B, and C here) at the Star Tribune.
I disagreed. What we yearn for is the insight and the “real scoop” that you get from great columnists such as Reusse and others. That being said, I would agree with Howard that Joe C. and La Velle do a more than adequate job covering the Twins…they do a good job keeping us updated. But so does Kelly Theiser from mlb.com and so does the Associated Press, which will crank out a game day story just as fast as anyone else and go into just as much depth. So as much as I love La Velle and Joe C. (mostly because you get a local feel from their reporting), the baseball world would go on as scheduled without them.
Now, as to the specific question about why won’t they press Gardy on Nathan’s use…I sympathize with the commenter to a certain extent–there are some very pointed questions that a lot of fans want answered without a “well see about that”…”we’re getting after it…ect.” response. The use of Nathan is something Gardy has been flat out waffling on this season and I do think it’s fair if, at the right moment, the manager is asked point blank: “look, given the struggles of your bullpen and the importance of every game at this point, would you hesitate to use Nathan more in the 8th?”
I think a reporter can respect a manager and ask him a tough question at the same time…and I see the manager’s side, too…he doesn’t want to commit to anything…he wants to be free to manage on instinct. At the same time, he knows he owes it to the fan base to be candid with the media.
FSN North? That’s not reporting, folks, that’s entertainment. You wouldn’t go to Bill O’Reilly for breaking political news, either.
As for the state of the team….an exciting win yesterday for sure, but I am really glad to be done with Seattle. I’d like to think the nagging problems (lack of HR power, ugly bullpen, poor defense / baserunning–Punto got away with an absolutely killer blunder yesterday) will not follow the team from Seattle to Oakland, but I guess we’ll have to wait and see.
As I’ve said all year long, the best thing about 2008 is how well we’ve scored runs…something that made this squad painful to sit through last year.
I disagree slightly with Howard on who to root for over the weekend….The White Sox clearly are getting their wins (they aren’t going anywhere)…I wouldn’t mind seeing them sweep the Red Sox, but the main thing is, as long as the Twins take care of business in 3-out-of-4 fashion, we’re going to end up gaining either way!
[…] Originally published by A Fan’s View […]
As I agree that Gomez probably needs some seasoning, I disagree with Pridie in center. If Gomez goes down, I think Cuddyer deserves to start in RF with Span sliding to center. However, I think Pridie should get a call up and backup all the OF positions.
There are two wildcrads for the future outfield as well in Revere and Hicks so GO GO bettter get it Going Going.
Where is Stacy at? She is supposed to say that I was right about Buscher…atleast I think I was right
pridie’s #’s at aaa: 544 abs, 143 so 1 every 3.8 ab’s, .268 ave., .303 obp.
gomez at major leagues: 483 abs, 119 so 1 every 4.1 ab’s, .255 ave, .291 obp.
now making a wild guess the pitching in aaa isn’t as good as in the american league. another wild guess is that pridie’s #’s don’t look a lot better than gomez and he hasn’t had a major league at bat. time to bring him up and stick him in a playoff race.
I can’t see the twins parting ways with span gomez or young anytime in the near future. Cuddy’s going to have to stay healthy and produce for any teams to be interested in him….so that means when he is healthy we’re forced to give him his playing time so we can eventually move him and end this “controvercy”.
I’m guessing that Revere and Hicks are at least 3 years away, BC of ND. GoGO does have to improve, time spent in AAA early next year could be the way to do it. He only had 140 ABs there last year.
Yeah…. Pridie will get his shot in spring training, might as well leave well enough alone until then. Don’t matter to me which sox are losing this weekend either. Whichever way the Twins get in they are going to be looking at the Angels or the Rays. Good luck with that. I guess MAYBE I’d slightly prefer to play the Rays and hope that the inexperience factor plays out in the Twins favor but I generally feel like ‘experience’ is somewhat overrated, especially when you have a team that will probably win 100 games in the regular season.
Pridie is another randy ruiz or bernardo brito. He will be a career minor leaguer, signed to minor league contracts to fill out rosters.
Has anyone else noticed that Cleveland has won ten straight and overtaken the Tigers? Yeah, they’ve been beating teams like Detroit and KC, but still, I seem to remember surging Cleveland teams in years past spoiling the hopes of front runners who had come to ignore them.
I guess we’ll see if they’re for real or not when they play Seattle this weekend.
“I guess we’ll see if they’re for real or not when they play Seattle this weekend.”
No, we’ll find out if they’re for real or not next week when they play the Whities…
Gregor that’s what i meant in my earlier post. I think they should’ve done the same thing with Gomez as they did with Casilla last year. I think Gomez is very similar to Upton in TB they both strikeout a lot but Upton has a lot more walks.
Root for the Red Sox because it is not likely that the twins will win the wild card since the Red Sox play 16 of their 25 games in September at home.
I don’t see why we have this perception that we need to only have 3 solid outfielders on this team. I don’t see a problem with the Twins hanging on to Cuddyer, who’s had a tough year, and platooning 4 outfielders. Odds are that someone will be in a slump or hurt throughout the season and that Cuddyer, when healthy, would be able to fill in that role nicely.
I think because the perception is that there are a cache of outfielders waiting to make the big club like Pirdie,Revere..etc..
I don’t agree with it since none have any power still more fast “little fish”
Off topic her but i was just reading Jeff Passans article on Johan (who i’m still a fan of)and he made a very good point about Santana’s makeup. After reading the article and thinking about the Twins starters i would say we don’t have that true ace either. All five of our starters seem to be more like Radke and Santana in that none of them wants to accept the role of the Ace.
Red Sox play a lot more teams with +.500 records than the Twins do the rest of the way out… that should at least be good enough to make the home field advantage the Red Sox have for the stretch a wash.
Yeah def no true ace here unless Liriano figures out a way to time warp back to 2006… Twins got 5 solid no. 3 starters right now, basically a bunch of guys who will keep you in the game, which isn’t what you get from the Angels or Rays. Teams go deep in the playoffs when they have a couple guys who can shut teams down.
fire
pridie has power. Granted, it’s AAA power.
Couldn’t Stelly see who was warming up in the Seattle ‘pen? Aren’t they right beside each other? Come on Gardy it’s a free call to boot! I wouldn’t right off Cuddyer yet in terms of still playing everyday in 2009. But that’s a tough call to figure out where? We may be a better team with Cuddy in RF and Span in CF. Gomez maybe could use a full year in Triple “A”.
talent wise no but chip on his shoulder and no fear yes, perkins can be an ace because he doesn’t back down and isn’t afraid of knocking somebody down.
Stat of the day on BBTN clubhouse: According to Inside Edge’s scouting data, putting the ball on the ground has been more beneficial to Twins speedster Carlos Gomez than any other player in the game this year, while power hitters not named Albert Pujols tend to struggle unless they get the ball airborne.
Why send anybody down with four days left in August? Rosters expand Monday. We can call Pridie up then.
Cuddyer needs to go during the off season. There could be several takers (the 2 New York team and Boston among others), if the Twins are not interested in much more than salary relief (which can be used to get a real 3B)
the outfield is set for next year with Young/Span/Gomez and Kubel in occasionally and Pridie backing them up.
I just hope that Cuddyer does not make the postseason roster in expense of Randy Ruiz, because Ruiz (with the small sample of PA at the majors and a great year in AAA) outplayed him this year.
If the Twins are within a game from the Sox before the Twins-Sox series in the dome, they will win the division.
About not seeing the lefty warming up in Seattle pen (semi-moot point the way it ended up,) it is 100% on Liddle. This is the job of the base coach. And if he does not have a good view from the bench, he should lift his rear end go to a place where he can see the pen.
I agree with Pete D’s comment at 9:37. Until he proves he can be a capable offensive player, Gomez need not be in the majors.
The Cuddyer of ‘06-’07 (career year + “off year” avaerages out) is clearly a better player than either Young or Gomez. Why should he be shoved to the side on a contending team?
Beyond that, I could also see a time and place where one of the regular OFs rested every day and Span moved around from left, center, and right. This is much like what Ozzie is doing with Griffey. Griffey is in the lineup most days and one of the regular outfielders or Konerko or Thome is out.
BTW, until Delmon improves on defense, the best defensive OF would be Span, Gomez, Cuddyer left to right.
Clevland wins ten straight and are still back 10.5 games. That has to suck.
I don’t see the Twins leaving Carlos Gomez off the playoff roster…it might be the most logical move, but I’d be shocked.
What does that say about the Santana trade?
Why would they leave Gomez off? That’d mean they’d only have 3 OFs (Kubel, Young, Span)
We all know how you feel about Span.
That should say Kubel. But oh well. The point is they need 4OFs, and there isn’t one avaiable aside from the four they’re currently using.
“What does that say about the Santana trade?”
says that it was a no-win situation.
it says that Billy went for a HR on potential time will tell if he hit one or struck out
With rosters about to expand, I see little reason to take Nathan out of his comfort zone. I wouldn’t be opposed to a four- or five-out save now and then, but Guardado, Crain, Guerrier, Korecky (after 8-31), etc., should get most of the pre-9th inning work. If Nathan is going to have to bail them out or pre-empt them entirely very often, he will go from underutilized to overworked in a hurry. I don’t think teams can go with a one-man bullpen. If the Twins are going to get to the playoff and/or stay in for longer than five minutes, the relievers who are not Nathan are going to have to be used and are going to have do their job more often than not.
I also think if there was a time to send Gomez back to AAA, it has passed. I think removing him right now would weaken the roster. He needs to learn some things, but there is all off-season for that before I would assign him back to Rochester for next year. There’s an old cliche that the best thing about freshmen (although Go-Go is no longer a the equivalent of a true freshman, he might as well be, work with me here) is that they become sophomores. Give Gomez and DY some time, let them soak up some of that knowledge from the sages and they will be better next year, ala Span and Casilla, and further AAA may not be necessary.
“it says that Billy went for a HR on potential time will tell if he hit one or struck out”
but the same could be said for jacoby ellsbury and his .264 ba (assuming he ever was a possibility).
To the ones who are still whining about the Santana trade:
What would have been a better return:
Gomez, Humber, Mulvey, Guerra
or
2 draft picks?
I hate to say this but i guess we should be pulling for the Yankees to beat the Red Sox today.
Teams go deep in the playoffs when they have a couple guys who can shut teams down.
Who in the prospective AL field really has that? The Red Sox, maybe, if Beckett and Dice-K pitch up to their billing, but that’s not always a given. The Tribe would have been in the series last fall if CC hadn’t blown up at crunch time. The Angels haven’t exactly been a playoff force lately and their top starters look a lot like the ones they relied on the past couple years. I don’t see any shutdowners on the ChiSox and Tampa’s starters are as untested in the postseason as Minny’s. I think any two of the Twins current five stack up about as well as anything the other contenders have to throw out there.
The issue is Cuddyer…does he get a playoff roster spot and if so at who’s expense?
The good news is they don’t have to make that decision until Cuddy comes off the DL.
I would say cheer for the White Sox, that way no New York and no Boston.
Mickey - the potential is Gomez & Guerra and Friends.. Red Sox wee only offering Ellsbury and a bag of chips.. Billy went for the only option he had to fill CF and get a potential future ace pitcher
White Sox or Red Sox? If we’re talking about one team sweeping the other, then I would favor a White Sox sweep. There is no practical reason for this, it’s purely personal: there is nothing I like to see more than a big buck team coming up short. Chances are, neither team will sweep, so the bigger issue is how the Twins do against the A’s. The pitching match ups favor the Twins in all four games. The disparity between the two offenses should also offset the fact that all four of their starters are lefties. I hate sounding so optimistic, but a four game sweep by the Twins is not out of the question. If the Twins can come up big in Oakland, then they pick up ground on both teams and it really doesn’t matter how that series plays out. Ultimately, I say root for the Twins harder than you have ever rooted for them before and if you have the chance to go to any of the games, you should go and scream your lungs out.
As much as I’d like to agree with you Fran, the Twins pitchers,
Baker (3.75/7-4/110SO/1.21WHIP/.255BAA)
Slowey (3.74 10-8 96 1.07 .246)
Blackburn (3.78 9-8 78 1.32 .288)
Perkins (3.96 12-3 63 1.39 .287)
Liriano (3.83 4-3 30 1.50 .238)
are going to be underdogs up against the top 2-3 pitchers from either of the teams the Twins would get in the first round. Granted, Liriano’s numbers are a little skewed from his starts earlier in the year, but:
Angels
Lackey(2.95 11-2 104 1.10 .238)
Saunders(3.67 14-7 79 1.25 .257) Santana (3.41 13-5 176 1.13 .235)
Saunders looks pretty close to matching up to any of ours, but Lackey is a tried and true big game pitcher, his ERA is nearly a full run below any of our guys, and he is basically the best parts of Baker (SO’s) Slowey (WHIP) Perkins (record) and Liriano (BAA) COMBINED. Santana is putting up some numbers that blow our guys out of the water - SO’s, BAA)
TB
Kazmir (3.27 9-6 134 1.23 .219)
Garza (as much as I hate to say it, since he should be ours) (3.53 11-7 110 1.23 .242)
Shields (3.75 11-8 139 1.17 .257)
Shields, the one with the weakest overall stats, would have the second lowest WHIP on our staff and easily the most SO’s. Garza matches up maybe with Baker but his ERA and BAA are both lower, and Kazmir, the ace, destroys any of our pitchers in ERA, SO’s, and BAA.
And we haven’t even mentioned what the BO sox could potentially do with an up to snuff Beckett, Dice-K, and Lester.
Jason, from what I’m hearing about Cuddy’s foot it’s not like he’s going to have much time once coming off to actually get some play time.
I’d rather have Gomez at 100% than Cuddy at…50?
Wow…John Sterling is awful
thaaa…pitch..is..lined..hard..down….the..right..field..line
“What does that say about the Santana trade?” either nothing or we we will see - certainly not “no win”. Humber and Mulvey are both doing well in AAA. Guerra at Ft Myers looks, on paper, to have not improved but who knows what pitches he may be working on this year. And as usual money means nothing. $130 million not paid out? At least not being tied tn that contract is a “win”
I could not agree more with this statement(s):
JustinCB says:
August 28th, 2008 at 9:35 am
I hope they don’t deal cuddyer in this offseason, they won’t get much for him at this point. I’d still say its too early to bank on Span. We all know there have been a LOT of twins that had standout years and then were done. Guzman, Mientki…. Doug, Cuddyer himself, LNP. I’d like to see a healthy Cuddyer come back and battle it out with Span and maybe even Gomez for an outfield spot. There is no reason that Span couldn’t play center field with his speed. It actually seems to be a better suited position for him, and then Cuddyer and Gomez could fight for right. With any luck, everybody pans out and then the Twins have the option to trade one of the extra pieces and get something of value in return.
Fran i agree that when it comes to true Aces none of those teams have one. In Passans column he was basically calling out Santana for not accepting the fact that he’s paid a ton of money to do be the stopper. As an example Nathan is paid a ton of monay to finish games for the Twins and he should be willing to accept any situation Gardy puts him in no mattter if it’s one or two innings or runners on base or not.
I thank all of you who haven’t thrown Cuddy to the curb - maybe Span is a flash in the pan - we’ll see next year right?? Now don’t your undies in a bunch - nobody can predict the future he could easily suck next season or be even more productive. I’m just saying - it’s too early to hand him the job - kind of like how many of you said it was too easy to give CF to Gomez
No one will trade for cuddyer this offseason unless the twins pay a significant part of his salary.
I’m looking at the Yankees box score…now I realize that their issue this year has been pitching, but you have to wonder how in the hell they are not in the race considering these batting averages:
Damon .311
Jeter .296
Abreau .297
A Rod .309
Nady .326
Cano .268
Matsui .310
Now I know Matsui has been injured most of the year, but still, I wouldn’t be surprised one bit if Joe Girardi is canned at the end of the season…
Lackey is clearly a ‘true ace.’ I didn’t painstakingly reproduce the statistics above for you all to make wildly non-factual statements.
E Santana is a ‘true ace’ as well probably, if he gets that ERA down a tick. The Angels have a solid playoff rotation any way you cut it.
perspective on 2nd yr twins outfielders over the yrs:
1984, 25 yr old kirby puckett;
691 ab, 4 hr, 74 rbi, 87 so, 41 bb, .288 ave, .339 obp
2000, 25 yr old jj;
523 ab, 19 hr, 76 rbi, 111 so, 26 bb, .285 ave, .319 obp
2000 24 yr old torii;
336 ab, 5 hr, 44 rbi, 68 so, 18 bb, .280 ave, .318 obp
2008, 22 yr old gomez;
483 ab, 6 hr, 38 rbi, 119 so, 20 bb, .255 ave, .291 obp
2008, 22 yr old young;
472 ab, 8 hr, 58 rbi, 83 so, 27 bb, .282 ave, .326 obp
Jason, this year’s Yankees = Tigers (with the addition of one decent starter -Musina- and a trustworthy closer)
Wouldn’t surprise me if cashman was fired also. Wasn’t Jr. Steinbrenner all about trading for johan, but cashman talked him into keeping the young guys? Probably smart on cashman’s part, time will tell, but with the yankees pitching woes, my guess is the Hank cringes every time Johan takes the mound for the Mets.
And when Hank steinbrenner is cringing, i’ll bet he remembers every word of Cashman’s pitch to keep the young Yankee players.
gobble,
cannot compare 22 year old players to 24 and 25 year olds. What were Puck’s, Torri’s and Jones’ stats when they were 22?
Jones was at Ft. Myers, Hunter batted .235/ .316/.294 in 17 AB as a September call up and Puck was in Visalia. Apples with Apples
Jason,
You’ve left me no choice but to share this absolutely disgusting and hilarious John Sterling tidbit from the New York Post. Bon appetit … and be careful what you do when others are watching!
I disagree, thrylos…the Tigers don’t have nearly the same amount of batting stars having a good year…you’ve got Shef hitting at .225…Renteria .265 with just 9 HRs…Marcus Thames is having a terrible year…and Mags is not having the type of year he’s accustomed to either…
So yeah, in terms of disappointment, both the Yanks and Tigers are in the same boat, but with the Yanks it’s just harder to believe…
Jason, got a look a little further then just batting avg. And not only has Matsui been injured, but Damon’s been out too. Nady didn’t come along until end of July and Cano just hasn’t been good all year.
Yankee Hitting Stats:
.273 BAvg 7th in AL
.344 OBP 3rd in AL
142 HRs 8th in AL
.771 OPS 6th in AL
I think they are normally near the top offensively in all of these categories..they aren’t this year despite the avgs. They are built to hit for more power and it’s not happening.
Where as you look at the White Sox and they probably lead most of the offensive categories, but their batting avgs are near the bottom…
…I suppose I’ll put out the Sox stats as well, since I was comparing them offensively.
WhiteSox Hitting stats:
.340 OBP 5th in AL
.458 SLG 2nd in AL
.798 OPS 3rd in AL
198 HRs 1st in AL
Despite having a team batting avg of .268 (7th in AL)
BAvg isn’t everything…
Wow. John Stering is gross. I wonder how he like it that the fact that he is a disgusting pig is out there for the whole world to see.
Howard,
I love that story, Fransesca & Mad Dog(1 of their last days together) was killing Sterling on that when the news broke.
I believe i have MPR on my iphone, when do you appear in the station?
I thought batting average wins games though.. who cares about OPS and SLG they are just stats for stats geeks right??
LOL Howard….no wonder he’s been ripping on the Post today for their stories about A-Rod…
FYI…A-Rod 0-for-2 with 2 K’s and is being booo’d heavily by the crowd.
Maybe the pause in “An a-bomb… From a-rod!” Is Sterling licking his fingers.
Jason,
i am listening to the Yankees game now. Sterling and Waldmyn are musing that the team doesn’t score any runs. They seem to be only mid pack.
3 of these guys have missed time as well
Damon .311 been out a bit
Jeter .296
Abreau .297
A Rod .309
Nady .326 only a month in NY
Cano .268
Matsui .310 been out most of the year
FIRE: Some people seem to believe that as well… just like a pitchers W/L record is all that matters.
HE WINS GAMES!!
just checked the Yanks are 8th in runs scored in the aL
I think the Twins need to use extreme caution with Nathan.Guerrier seems to have rekindled the mental spark he lost from over use and IMO should have been left in the game to face Reed yesterday.It’s Just Like Gardenhire to get a new relief toy and try to OVER USE him.”Everyday Eddie” shouldn’t be used every day any more,but the right mix of Guerrier,Eddie,Reyes,Boof,Breslow,and Crain should be enough to bridge the gap to Nathan.
My hope is that the Twins don’t do anything foolish with Cuddyear this off season.Span has played unbelievable baseball,but the history books are filled with one season wonders,and in Spans case,it’s less than one full season.
Cuddyear his been hurt for the last year and a half.I see no reason to rush him back this year,but he needs to be a part of the outfield puzzle next year IMO.His trade value,if thats the eventual route the Twins want to go,would be much higher if he can prove next year he’s healthy and productive.
If Span proves this isn’t all a dream maybe GoGo can get some AAA expierence,or a Span /GoGo platoon if Span comes back to earth.Cuddy isn’t a great player,but if healthy he gives the Twins a least a bit of right handed pop (16-20 HR) if healthy.If nothing else, he’s a better than average 4th outfielder,back up 1B to Doc,and RH DH.What’s wrong with some depth?
And the Tampa Bay Rays are 10th in runs scored, what does that tell ya?
tells me they must be 2nd in runs allowed.
Who’s “they”?
Tampa
well right, the Rays are 2nd in the league in almost all pitching areas. Dont score a lot, but dont give up any runs either.
the Yankees have been avg or below offensively and their pitching’s been even worse. Due to injuries and everything else they haven’t been able to hang with Boston (who out hits them) and Tampa (who out pitches them).
I know there’s more to it than batting average…but I was taken back a bit when I glanced at the box score…
I know you know, just putting the numbers out there… but you can’t just look at offensive numbers either… otherwise the Rangers would be in it, and the Rays would be last in the league. So obviously there are two sides to every coin/story/cookie?
ha.
Jason,
they have been getting killed at catcher & cf, cano has been kind of bad, giambi ok, but not special, and no bench.
basically 1-4 are tough and thats about it, Nady & Matsui in help
So what you’re saying is it’s not Girardi’s fault, Shawn?
“thaaa pitch”
wow this guy is painful to listen too..
I don’t think it’s ever fair to fire a manager after just one year…but if a team is going to do it, it would be the Yankees…
bottom line is, injuries or not, you cannot be staring up the standings at the Tampa Bay freakin Rays if you’re the New York Yankees…
I’d say its just inevitable. They have been on a slight decline since they lost the 01 series. Bunch of old guys. Farm system has been weak, better lately, but they are getting nothing from young guys this year.
I have lived out this was since 04 and since 05, i have been thinking “this is the year that they don’t make it”, they ahve gotten lucky and compensated with money a couple times, but the team has many flaws and might be reverting back to the 80s mode.
you’re right, it’s not acceptable in NYY to have a down year. Especially a down year where the Rays are running away with the division.
here is Minny, had we finished 4th in the division this year, we’d all be “well, figured we be there…”
yeah, Sterling is brutal, was btter in 04 when Charlie Steiner was with him.
**in Minny
For those of you who question Jason Pridie’s ability, “Have you seen him play”? I watched him live with Durham last year, and with Rochester in June, as well as spring training. He can flat out play. His numbers do show a caveat in strikeout’s, but he is every exciting player on the horizon. Imagine an outfield of Pridie/Span/Gomez, three centerfields to cover some gound.
Well Folks,
With the caveat: Time will tell,
It looks like the personnel decisions from year to year will become much more difficult. A nice problem to have.
Regards,
If old Hank was still running the show both Girardi and A-Rod would be getting berated on a daily basis.
Jason,
what the hell are they talking about?
nothing….i just threw in a side note about how annoying Sterling’s style is…
It does have to be painful for the Yankees to have all these people showing up for the last days of Yankee Stadium to watch a game that only matters for the visiting team…
When you consider that’s going to happen throughout September…that’s a lot of bitterness that will add up in New York…I would be surprised if it results in some changes among management.
FYI…A-Rod 0-for-2 with 2 K’s and is being booo’d heavily by the crowd.
And then tomorrow he’ll hit a homerun and they’ll start throwing laurels again.
Jason,
my guess is that Cashman will leave.
I would take Cashman in the Twin’s org. in a second!!
Fire,
so would I
No World Championships since 2000; No World Series appearances since 2001….some heads have to roll you would think…
“No World Championships since 2000; No World Series appearances since 2001….some heads have to roll you would think…”
Joe Torres’s head rolled all the way to LA.
They don’t have to can the manager EVERY YEAR.
Does the thought of the Yankees not making the playoffs make anyone else here smile?
Jason we would love to have won a WC in the past 7 years instead of the last one being 17 years ago!! with nothing to show for it sense!
smiling ear to ear about the Yankees not getting in.
Giambi pinch-hit 2 run HR to tie it in 7th….
Masterful move by Girardi that will definitely save his job!
We’d love a $200 million payroll, too, FIRE
Yankees, I believe, have huge amounts of $$$ coming off their payroll at the end of this year. I think their idea of developing a pitching staff will go out the window with the dollars they throw at C.C. and Sheets.
FIRE
That would be nice, though the Yankees’ habit of spending 200 mil or more on payroll increases expectations somewhat. I’m just glad we are not cubs, mariners, rangers, or nationals(expos) fans, who’s teams either have never won it, or won it so long ago that no one is alive who clearly remembers them winning it.
add the astros to my above list.
YGTBKM - Twins are on their way to joining that crowd does anyone remember 1991?
add Brewers….that’s right Wisconsin, still no WS title!
1982 was a long time ago, as well!
I remember. But you are right, it has been to long.
i remember 91 very well. 87, not as much.
Did they win it in 1982? I couldn’t remember for sure. If the brewers won one, i apolagize to their drunken fans. Also, did the padres win one in the early 80’s, or did they lose? Was it the padres that played the brewers?
they lost to the Cards in 82
Pads lost to the Tigers in 84
nope Brewers lost to cards
80’s were the days/decade.. Tiggers and Jays were good O’s a little bit and Yanks generally stunk it up!!
sorry, i’m at work. little time for looking it up myself.
FIRE
But the music was awful.
i didn’t look it up, I’m just old 
heck i can remember 65 only they didn’t win it. milwauke won the world series in 56? beat the yankees first world series i can remember. a lot of braves fans in minny in those days.
wow I just looked at the highlights from yesterday…on Bentancourt’s double…D Young looked horrific going after that ball.
i know we’ve been on these guys (Young and Go-go) a lot, but some of this stuff adds up…D Young’s fielding has to improve, right?
On the radio, I remember Gladden saying something about a ball that feel in front of Kubel that never should have, as well.
Gladden thinks any hit should have been caught and opposing runners should never be able to advance a base or steal.. he forgets he use to “Jacques Jones” a throw into the ground on occasion too!
Twins won a world series? I’m only 7.
Am I on some sort of Blog probation here? everything I write is ‘awaiting moderation’ all of the sudden.
Gladden holds the Twins to a higher standard than he held himself.
Well, say what you will about Gladden (I’m firmly on the record with my view), he made a fantastic point about how Jim Riggleman was caught with his pants down late in the game yesterday…when the Twins had their go-ahead rally, Kubel hit and the M’s didn’t have any of their bullpen lefties ready to go…Gladden said they should be thinking ahead in the game and have those guys ready to come in…not starting to stretch by the time Kubel was stepping in!
The Pro from Dover,
at this point, Ruiz is better for RH batting depth than Cuddyer (and at 20x less cost)
good point sane: gladdens career average yr #’s
10 hr, 60 rbi, 85 so, .270 ave, .324 obp
not really that impressive but he got after it and battled his tail off!
Dan Gladden is the Gold Standard of battling your tail off and getting after it. A career overachiever.
and Gladden had the Hunter leadership quality - he loved to beat up teammates!
i think gardy would say nicky is the “new” gold standard! can’t remember gladden sliding into first.
But the music was awful.
I’ll take a random cut from the “Greatest Hits of the Big ’80s” over the next song that comes on your favorite radio station today.
Jason I think Gadden is more of a non-Homer then anyone else on TV/radio and gives non- PC answers he just forgets that not every single play will be perfect.. it does bug him when players don’t hustle or “battle their tail off”
Was it him and Lombardozi that got into it? Or was it Tommy Herr? Also, I think there was some bad blood between him and Gaetti after Gaetti found Jeebus?
Fran
Agreed. The music is awful now, also. Late 60’s to early 70’s, and the 90’s were the golden ages of music.
yep Gladden and Lambo got into he left Lambo with a busted nose I think.
Gaetti had problems with Hrbek after he started a personal relationship with Jesus
“it does bug him when players don’t hustle or “battle their tail off””
And why wouldn’t it? His legged-out double in the bottom of the 10th of Game 7, 1991, set up the finish of the most memorable season of my lifetime.
Throw the stats out boys and admit this much before you slice and dice Gladden…Gladden was a catalyst on two World Series teams…he had whatever ‘it’ was to help them reach the top….
throw out all the numbers, no one, I mean NO ONE, on this current squad can say that…not yet, anyway.
So forgive me if I chuckle when you guys question his ability to make judgments about what he sees on the field while calling the games…
Good to see the Yankees help us out a bit.
Jason,
Dazzle will send you 20 bucks now
not really that impressive but he got after it and battled his tail off!
Gladden may owe his current livelihood to thinking “double” as soon as he hit that ball in the World Series.
Gladden is just like that old man who thinks the “youngins” can’t do anything right are lazy and soft.. he is right most of the time but he is so locked into expecting that ALL players will be PERFECT ALL the time he forgets 3 hits in 10 ABs means 7 times of failure
You know why fans in New York boo A-Rod?
It’s not cause of the money, it’s not cause of his wife, or Madonna, or any of that…
it’s because no amount of statistics in the world can replace being able to perform in the clutch.
Gladden had that.
Before you get all bent out of shape and claim that I’m saying Gladden is better than A-Rod, take a deep breath, and realize that I’m only illustrating what I believe to be a fairly critical point…
This current batch of Twins can compile all the statistics, MVPs, batting titles, and Cy-Youngs in the world…but if they can’t come through in the clutch, they will always rank below the core group that stole our hearts and imaginations during those two seasons in 1987 and 1991. Dan Gladden was a pretty big part of that, I would say.
Jason I would say their current .313 W/RISP is quite clutch in fact historically clutch! their overall avg is only .279!! the MLB avg w/RISP is only .259 this year
I hope that .313 comes in handy in September and October, FIRE, I really do…
jason, waxing nostalgic for better times past.
that’s the rub isn’t it because if the Twins avg w/RISP drops to their overall batting average then this offense is scoring half a run less a game on average and it more closely resembles the “pop gun” offense we are use to watching
Does Gladden’s mustache tickle when he kisses you, Jason?
Sorry Jason, I couldn’t resist. Gladden was a vital part of both those teams, both on the field and off. I wore number 32 in high school ball cause i liked how gladden played every game like it was game 7 of the world series.
it seems like just yesterday the Twins were in the thick of the pennant chase,
oh well, theres always next year!
it’s because no amount of statistics in the world can replace being able to perform in the clutch.
Gladden had that.
I think that your memory is mistaken…
here are some Gladden splits from the WS years:
1987
Late and close: .196/.270/.357
2 outs RISP: .205/.286/.341
1991
Late and close: .189/.306/.377
2 outs RISP: .179/.258/.321
About as clutch as Everett (maybe a little less)
Everett clutch splits this year
Late and close: .286/.267/.357
2 outs RISP: .143/.333/.143
yeap, and Al Newman was a slugger
Strange, though, thet gladden had 2 of his worst years, statistically, in 87 and 91.
in fairness Gladden in 1987 world series had a nice grand slam
More than that….
he had arguably the biggest hit of the 1987 World Series with his Grand Slam in the bottom of the 4th inning…the Cards were leading 1-0 going into the inning….the Twins capped a 7-run fourth with Gladden’s Granny, turning the game into a laugher…10-1 and prompting the famous Whitey Herzog quote “a good old fashioned a&* kicking”
Then…
He scored the Twins’ first run in critical Game 6, tripling in the first inning and scoring on a Kirby Puckett single…he finished 2-for-5 in that game…
then in Game 7, he had an RBI double in the 8th which gave the Twins a huge insurance run and a 4-2 lead, paving the way for Reardon to close it out in the 9th…
In 1991…
Gladden struggled statistically but went 3-for-5 with the game winning run in the 10th in Game 7 (as outlined above)
the point is–and my point from the beginning–these things are bigger than the statistics. No one’s going to know what Joe Mauer hit in 2008 if the Twins miss the playoffs or bow out in the first round again.
Mark Rosen will know what kind of socks Mauer wore on Sept 2nd in 2008!!!
I’m gonna go ahead and agree with Jason. No stat geek in the world can diminish Dazzle’s effect on the 2 WS teams. I was too young to remember 1987, but barely old enough to kinda remember some of 1991 and I know growing up Gladden was a player I emulated. His tenacity and playing style reaches far beyond statistics.
Even then, I would say hitting in the clutch in the regular season doesn’t hold a candle to doing it in the WS. Gladden did it in the WS…game 7 mind you. That’s as clutch as it gets.
Guardado as a closer scares me too much. Actually Guardado pitching for the Twins in general does too………
I guess I still remember when the Twins would only let him throw to one batter, and that usually wound up as a HR…Or at least that’s the way I remember it.
He makes games into nail biters way too often
Twins did have good Clutch players for both WS. Kirby was the best on the Twins at coming through in the clutch In my opinion
“OK, big fella, let’s see how that 1.11 ERA holds up with runners on second and third and one out.”
Not to split hairs but inheriting runners on base doesn’t affect a reliever’s ERA regardless of whether they score or not.
Although you certainly could argue that in some cases it should.
JustinCB says:
August 28th, 2008 at 9:51 am
Sweetytone,
I believe he was just referring to the fact that the ERA implies he is a dominant pitcher, which he is, but that his dominance has been established in situations where he isn’t inheriting any runners. I’m sure Howard has enough baseball-watching years under his belt to understand the concept of the earned run.
Howard, Carlos Gomez is more likely to be the odd man out next year than is Cuddyer. Gardy has already given you this notice — in a pregame interview two weeks back he said, “Yes, Go-Go may need some games back in the minors to fix his game for the long term.” (paraphrased)
Next year’s starting outfield — Young, Span, Cuddyer. I would not at all be surprised to see that as our starting outfield in the playoffs too.
T Mouse
Spring Training is going to be interestng in 2009. I still think that between 3 OF position and the DH, there’s room for Young, Span, Gomez, Cuddyer and Kubel to get a lot of ABs… and cover the inevitable injuries that will occur over a season.
Is Cuddyer honestly going to be back from his foot injury with enough time to prove he’s ready to take over starting…in the PLAYOFFS no less?
