Taking swings at a few subjects
Posted on September 10th, 2008 – 8:41 AMBy Howard
Let me help sort out a few things.
Nick Punto v. Brendan Harris: Punto could be Gardy’s love child for all I know, but there isn’t a single solid argument for benching him and playing Harris at shortstop — only emotional ones.
On offense: Punto’s numbers are .285 average, .341 on-base, .399 slugging. Harris’ are .261/.319/.388. Punto has struck out about once in every six at-bats; Harris about once in every four. Punto has one extra-base hit every 12 at-bats; Harris one every 11. Harris has drawn 9 more walks than Punto in 135 more plate appearances. Punto has 11 steals, Harris 1.
On defense: The best defensive metric readily available is zone rating. Among AL shortstops who qualify to be among the league leaders (according to STATS, Inc.) the top three shortstops are Cabrera (.841), Betancourt (.834) and Bartlett (.833). To qualify, a player needs to have played the position in two of every three of his team’s games. Punto’s ZR in 388 innings is .844; Harris’ is .762 in 462 innings.
Among “qualifying” shortstops in the AL, the lowest ZR is .808. Harris doesn’t come close to that. If you remember back to the mid-80s, it’s like the Smalley v. Gagne debate at shortstop. One got to balls (Gagne), the other didn’t (Smalley). To his credit and the Twins benefit, Roy found other ways to contribute.
Despite his regular Web Gem appearances, I have been among those skeptical of Punto’s overall fielding prowess and, as an everyday player, I suspect he’d be a middle-of-the-pack shortstop by the numbers. But right now there’s no reasonable measure for anyone to make the argument that Harris should be in the lineup and Punto should be sitting. Yes, Punto has made some errors and takes some maddening ABs (the bases loaded/one out pop fly against Detroit on Saturday was a classic groaner), but the garbage he takes is disproportionate to what he deserves.
At third base, by the way, Brian Buscher has a ZR of .781 and Harris .780. Those numbers would put them at the bottom among qualifying third basemen, ahead of only Kansas City’s Alex Gordon. So don’t be thinking that Buscher, for all of his fielding faults, is the lesser option compared to Harris. Neither is exactly championship caliber, which is why I avert my eyes any time a ball is hit toward third (and Gardy looks for chances to play Tolbert).
Someone commented in Monday’s post that they “want some answers to why Harris has been benched.” You need any more?
Joe Mauer, wuss?: When Joe Mauer gets a day off, there are complaints about his toughness, his durability, his manliness, whatever. Innings caught is a reasonably objective indicator of durability. Mauer is second in the AL to Oakland’s Kurt Suzuki. (I’m assuming we’d swap ‘em straight up, right?) Mauer is also second in the percentage of runners caught stealing and he’s third in the league in hitting. He’s also hitting .371 against lefties. I’m trying to figure out exactly what he does that warrants the derision that he seems to get, and the derision directed at people who are unwilling to nitpick criticisms. Struck out with the bases loaded and one out Saturday? Ohmyfreakinlord. Not enough big hits? Not enough home runs? I guess those people really want him to be St. Joe.
Glen Perkins, Rookie of the Year: Only if the voters are all from Stillwater. Yes, he’s 12-4. But the Twins have lost five games in which Perkins has been given a lead of at least three runs. On Sunday, in a game the Twins needed against Detroit, he suffered another mid-game meltdown and couldn’t get through the sixth inning. Perkins has had a nice season despite his inability to be a bulldog with a lead, but to mention him as among those in the ROY running is silly. Of the Twins current five starters, I see him as the one most likely to lose his spot in the rotation as younger talent develops or the Twins look elsewhere to bolster their staff in 2009 and 2010. Would I mind if he proves me wrong on that one? Not at all.
Carlos Gomez should have been sent to the minors: Gomez is exactly where he should be right now — playing center field more often than not and batting ninth. I think some of the “he shouldn’t be here” venom comes, understandably, from the painfully excessive amount of time it took Gardy to decide that Gomez didn’t have to bat leadoff and play every day to protect a tender psyche. Yes, it’s been excruciating to watch Gomez at the plate much of the time. But, again, using the zone rating measure, Gomez is the best center fielder in the majors. Using the less meaningful Range Factor statistic, the difference between Gomez and the others is even greater. There isn’t another center fielder in baseball who has more than three putouts/assists per nine innings. He simply gets to balls that others don’t. Do some of you people miss Jason Tyner, or what?
Yes, I think the Twins would be better off at this point if Gomez had been in the lineup for, say, 20 fewer games. But I also think they’d be worse off right now if he’d spent time in the minors. Go back and look at Curtis Granderson’s early-career numbers and look at the player he has become. That’s what I see for Gomez in a couple of years, in part because of the Twins being willing to give him a major-league apprenticeship. Sometimes it’s inconvenient to be patient.
Free Matt Tolbert: Some people are romanticizing the work that Tolbert did before he head-firsted his way to the disabled list in May. The truth? His numbers are .264/.309/.352 in 99 plate appearances. I guess he really gets after it and battles his tail off.
Hey Toronto: Nice job. You guys gotta be wishing you were in the AL Central, right? Sometimes geography’s a bear.
other people are here too
283 Responses to "Taking swings at a few subjects"
Nice post Howard. I would probably agree with most of that. The Harris one still drives me nuts, though. I’m OK that he doesn’t start, but why never play him? I mean we’re using Pridie as a PH over Harris now.
I never understood the complaints about Mauer. Would I like him to play every day? Yes. Is it feasible? No. He’s a catcher. They need days off. Mauer is still a highly productive player, at the plate and in the field. But a day off every 5 days or so isn’t a huge issue.
Perkins does not deserve ROY. In fact, he’ll probably be in the pen in a couple years. I just don’t think he is mentally capable of being a starter. He has had far too many starts where he flamed out in the 7th inning. Like Bert said, it’s all between the ears. Along with that, I really don’t like his demeanor on the mound. I sense that he hates his teammates and if they make an error or don’t get to a ball, he gets pissed at them. This was very evident when Punto let one through him last week.
I like the statistical comparisons with Gomez, Howard. Bottom line, Gomez has improved over last year. There is no reason we can’t expect him to make a huge step next year. Like you pointed out, Morneau was quite abysmal his first full year up.
Tolbert is a utility player. Bottom line. Just like Kubel is a platoon DH.
Howard,
Thank you for explaining the LNP v Mitt Harris conundrum and providing statistics to back it up. LNP is one of my favorite players and it drives me nuts how so many people rag on him no matter what he does.
“…the garbage he takes is disproportionate to what he deserves.”
Exactly!!! I know he was really bad at the plate last year, but he was great the year before and he’s having a pretty decent season this year. I’m just saying, maybe we could let last year go and judge him on what he’s done/doing this year?
Just saying is all… I’m going to go now and play with my Piranha hand puppet… 
Yeah Harris is a pretty bad fielder. I was liking the Garza/Young trade when Bartlett was putting up horrible numbers but he is doing pretty good as of late. Combine that with his defense and that hurts the Twins bad. Garza doesn’t hurt though, all the Twins starters are having comparable years and Young has played good since the break. But Bartlett hurts now.
Comparing Harris-Punto at hitting though I think Punto has just been hitting lucky latley. If he played as many games as Harris he would be around 230 and not 280 and he is below average at short stop. Just not way way below average. I don’t think it matters who you have in there if its one of those two.
I guess I still don’t see the comparison to Granderson, other than that Granderson also struck out a lot (and still does) and that Granderson had a relatively low OBP his first years. The thing Granderson always had going for him, and what I think made the Tigers stick with him, is power. That power forced pitchers to be more careful with him, and has allowed his OBP to come up the last two years. I guess that could happen with Gomez, but I remain skeptical.
This is wonderful Howard. I agree on most of what is said here, and I’m especially peeved at folks who deride Joe Mauer. He’s quite possibly the best all-around player in the game and they want more.
What don’t I agree with? This:
there isn’t a single solid argument for benching him and playing Harris at shortstop
Part of my argument is a question of style: Do you want a guy who is flashy and mistake-prone or a guy who’s boring and solid? I would rather have the guy who’s boring and solid, personally. Every time Punto runs around a ball hit right at him to backhand it and throw on the run, I cringe. Most of his errors have come on this kind of play: A play he could easily make by squaring up and making a solid, planted throw. But that’s not flashy enough for him. On the other hand, Harris has soft hands and is fundamentally sound. I prefer that kind of player.
I know that errors are overrated and all. So perhaps Punto gets to more balls and makes more outs. If that’s the case, I guess I just have to get over the fact that he does that in spite of the fact that he never learned to play the game the right way.
My hope for this offseason is that we won’t have to have this debate next year. My hope is that the Twins can either acquire a shortstop (Cristian Guzman?) who’s obviously better than both Harris and Punto or they can get a good second baseman (Orlando Hudson?) and move Casilla over to short.
tborg,
Your skepticism is not unfounded. But I think the power will come. Here’s one example: Kirbyyyyyyyy PUCKETT.
YES!!! I love this post. Thank you for sticking up for or just making everyone else see that Gomez should be playing. If he wasn’t playing in someo of the games he did, we would have a lost because of his defense alone. I know you can argue the same can go the other way for his bat, but he needs to play, look at last night. He did a great job. We will continue to win with him, now and in the future.
The whole nit-pick-over-the-negligable-difference-between-LNP-and-Harris thing is like arguing over which wet noodle you want to go into a sword fight with, except one of your wet noodles cost you an extra 2 million dollars. I bet that LNP money would go a long way toward a halfway decent middle reliever for next year….
Nice post Howard. I agree with everything but am waffling a little on your Gomez take - but you have the stats and I don’t. Most people who are down on Mauer are just afraid to be called “homers” by sticking up for him and giving him his credit.
“I have been among those skeptical of Punto’s overall fielding prowess…”
I thought I was the only one. But, it’s clear we are wrong since his three cheerleaders(Gardy, Redmond, Cuddyer) contend he is a gold glove at three positions.
I agree with almost everything in the post. One thing about Gomez that I wonder about. Of course the cynic in me believes he was here because the Twins felt a need to showcase the talent, or lack thereof they received for Johan. But, I have to think part of it is that the Twins felt he had nothing else to learn in AAA and his glove compensates for his bat.
One thing you did fail to mention, it isn’t as if Tyner would be in center field. While Gomez might get to more balls than Span, and I believe he does, Span is the more complete defensive player. So, the question becomes is losing Span’s defense in right worth whatever you might gain at the plate.
I don’t believe so and I’m not a big rah rah defense guy on the corners.
You see Granderson, I see Mike Cameron with a little more speed and a little less power, or a lot less power, depending on which team he spends his prime years in.
Justin,
Nitpick? The defensive numbers are so “non-negligable” that it’s crazy to compare the two of them right now. And let’s talk about next year next year. I believe there’s a pennant race going on this year.
cmath,
I just don’t think Harris is “solid” in the field. He doesn’t get to balls. But discussions like this are the reason I wrote this post.
Good call on using ZR, Howard, but refined zone rating is the better stat. It takes out of zone plays out of consideration and puts them into their own category. RZR can be found at the Hardballtimes.com
Gardy needs to find a way to play Harris more; let him get into a groove. If he played 135-140 games a year; he would have 45-50 doubles. I am totally comfortable with him at shortstop/ 3rd base; not 2nd base, however.
GREAT posting Howard!! REally enjoyed it. It has been extremely hard as a fellow blogger to not bash the fact that Punto is in there every day. I hate that the reason is ‘because there isn’t a better option’ though. I’d still like to see Everett a little bit more, but it isn’t worth whining about at all.
Tolbert - I never did understand that. HE started out incredibly hot. He was hitting like .600 after 20 at bats or so, but then reality set in over those next 75-80 at bats. He’s a solid utility type player. I would argue that he’s going to be a better utility player than Punto had been. But he’s not great by any means.
Gomez - I’m as frustrated by this as anyone. Defensively, he is excellent. I can’t help but wonder how much lesser of a ZR Span or Pridie would have if they had as much playing time in CF. My guess is a little, but that both would both be well above average. Offensively, you get what you get. I know some got sick of his bunting, but I wish he would do it more. Make the defense rush a play and see what happens. I was happy with the sac fly last night. The triple was fun to watch. I’ve been one to tout Jason Pridie sharing some time with Gomez. I haven’t said he should be the starter. He strikes out just as much, but he also is a better hitter at this point. But he’s about 2-3 years older, so he should be.
The Joe Mauer bashing is about the most ridiculous thing ever. I have never understood it, and there is ZERO reason for it.
Glen Perkins has been excellent most of the year. The W-L record is good, the ERA is good. He was the one of the five starters that I thought would be a bullpen option, but not any more. As long as he stays healthy, he should be starting. In my mind, Blackburn is the one that would get pushed to the bullpen to make room for the likes of Mulvey, Swarzak and Manship.
Great article Howard, and congrats on Winning Week 1 of the NFL “Expert” picks over at my site! Now we have to see if you can back it up in week 2! 
and for the record, I do believe that Gomez has the talent and ability to become as good as Curtis Granderson IF he can just relax and play and obviously make some adjustments.
Oh, and my other comment I meant to put in that long one was:
Is Glen Perkins a rookie? I know he came into the season with less than 50 innings, but there is also a limit to how long he could spend on the active roster. His time in the bullpen could have taken up a lot of that. So, I’m not sure if he is rookie-eligible this year.
I will enjoy watching Harris excell for another team when he’s eventually released, leaving Punto to fail as we know he will. Punto is a spare.
Hey, nice to run into you at the game last night! I figured I’d better write something to back up my claim of “loyal reader.” You might also remember my girlfriend’s now-defunct blog “Yeah Buddy!” which was on the blog roll at one time.
I was definitely among those who wondered whatever happened to Brendan Harris. Thanks for clearing that up! I guess the only thing Harris can bring that Punto can’t is a little better shot at a home run. Has anyone else ever noticed Harris would look just like Rivers Cuomo of Weezer if he wore Buddy Holly glasses?
Seth,
Perkins was an AL Rookie of the Month candidate for August so I’m assuming he’s ROY eligible. Also, when the question was raised on the Twins web site, mlb.com beat writer Kelly Thesier didn’t say he was ineligible. That’s my circumstantial evidence.
Punto’s sliding into 1st base should automatically make him benchable!!
o.k. maybe not it is disappointed thought that he is the best we have at SS he is approaching the other side of 30 and his DEF will continue to regress an upgrade as SS is needed for next year plus is he worth it as 2.4M and who knows what he will get paid as a free agent after this year?
Harris still needs to play. Although Gardy has made him an everyday player, Punto needs a day off every now and then. Perkins is one of our best starters for working the inside of the plate, but he does need to get mentally tougher. And Seth, it’s hard to believe, but Perkins is still rookie eligible.
Punto’s sliding into 1st base should automatically make him benchable!!
o.k. maybe not it is disappointing though that he is the best we have at SS he is approaching the other side of 30 and his DEF will continue to regress an upgrade as SS is needed for next year plus is he worth it as 2.4M and who knows what he will get paid as a free agent after this year?
i think we can expect from past history that at least one of our young starters will take a step back next yr. imo liriano and baker will be ok but likely blackburn, perkins or slowey will “get figured out” or regress. as far as that goes one of them should be used to get, beltre, kouzmanoff, atkins or ugla. if we have 3 real options to replace them we need another quality infielder that can hit a few homeruns, again imo.
I guess Evan Longoria left the door open for AL ROY by getting hurt. He’s probably still the front-runner, but Armando Gallaraga and Perkins also have to be in consideration. Jacoby Ellsbury was a front-runner the first half of the season, but he fell off. David Murphy was right there until he got hurt.
At the time that Gardy poured cement on the bench and parked Harris’ behind on it in favor of LNP, Harris was playing very, very well. Solid, boring defense and he was a doubles-hitting machine. I recall looking at the stat nos. at the time and there was really no reason, other than favoritism, as to why Harris suddenly was benched as soon as LNP came back. Anyway, Gardy gives everyone a day off now and then except Mr. RBI. Is LNP that crucial to the team that he can’t get a day off once in a while? I think not.
Great stuff Howard, as usual.
Thanks for the “battle your tail off: reference.
But one thing…Carlos Gomez becoming Curtis Granderson? In what regards? Gomez has never shown the amount of power that Granderson has.
To be honest…I’ve long compared Gomez to Carl Crawford. Comparable minor league numbers, and similar tools.
Anyone agree?
Kay,
That game in Oakland — 0-for-4, two called strikes, 3,000 runners left on base and making like a statue on Nathan’s throw wasn’t exactly my definition of playing “very, very well.” Neither was his 3-for-20 (.150) offensive performance with seven strikeouts on the West Coast trip.
perhaps with all the defensive problems and occasions of lack of intensity by the club Gardy feels he can’t afford to take LNP out of the lineup!
Perkins isn’t even the best rookie ON THE TWINS. I can’t believe anybody is actually making that argument…..
As for the LNP vs. Harris thing Howard, I’m going to go find some stats to jigger with and I’ll be back…. my stupid job is temporarily distracting me.
Howard you can cherry pick any game or short stretch by every Twin’s player this year and show they played very very bad stick with your original argument - over the course of the season LNP has better DEF and hits for a higher avg - LNP is still a weak SS compared to what this team needs to improve but he is the best on the current roster - which means a hole is still at SS
Howard, Oakland and the West Coast series occurred AFTER Gardy had started using LNP every day. After he had let Harris go cold by sitting on the bench day after day, week after week. He finally gets a chance, comes in, and didn’t look sharp.
Way to go Howard, now that’s top notch sports reporting because you used the facts, not emotion, to make your case. Thank you, it was quite eye opening. Now if our nations political reporters could do the same.
FIRE,
I agree with you on cherry-picking. But the commenter specifically said that Harris was playing well “at the time” and I needed to show that “at the time” he was swinging the bat like Corky Miller.
I could also point to several games where Punto has looked atrocious in the field, at the plate and base-running, but he’s right back in the starting line-up the next day.
Just looked at the RZR…Harris is 5th on the team at SS! limited sample of course, but he is behind Casilla, Everett, Punto and Tolbert.
Howard,
I tried to explain to the blind why LNP is playing over Harris a month ago. Even with these very numbers staring them in the face they still came up with a great excuse. LNP had 100 less AB’s and that was the reason his stats were better!
Bottom line is Harris is the worst fielding infielder in baseball. If not the worst, he is darn close. To make matters worst, he can’t hit. This myth that Harris is such a good hitter amazes me. If LNP was putting up his numbers can you imagine the crying on these blogs.
Bottom line, Harris is a below ave player in the field and at the plate. Why are so many of you crying for him? Maybe Harris has the bad pictures of you hanging in his locker….
Howard, what’s the chances of the Twinks trying to get Smoltz next year for the bullpen? I saw he is willing to join another team because he doesn’t think the Braves want him anymore.
FIRE,
I agree with you on cherry-picking. But the commenter specifically said that Harris was playing well “at the time” and I needed to show that “at the time” he was swinging the bat like Corky Miller.
Kay,
Harris played in 20 of 29 games in August, so he was playing regularly — including five starts in a row before the team went on the road. Harris never sat on the bench “day after day, week after week.” He simply played mediocre baseball most of the time. It’s time to stop turning Brendan Harris into Derek Jeter.
I also have my gripes with LNP, but Punto’s shortcomings don’t make Harris a better player. Not to pile on here, but there’s a reason Tampa made upgrading at short a priority.
Sorry, but Sinker’s analysis does not include Punto’s boneheaded baserunning gaffes. With no mention of that in this article, I find it to be terribly biased.
Remember, the whole idea was for Harris to play 2B. He failed there, almost as bad as Lamb failed at 3B. Harris was lucky to get any playing time on the left side. He was brought here to play 2B. He failed. Move on.
I don’t think Harris is Jeter, but neither is Punto. Harris was in the midst of hitting double after double when he started collecting butt splinters. Many people must have the same misperception I do because “at the time,” many commenters were asking Joe and LenIII to find out what was wrong with Harris. Was he injured? Because, at that time, there did not appear to be a logical reason for Gardy sitting him as soon as Punto came back.
1 extra base hit every 4 games does not constitute “hitting double after double”
Kay, the logical Gardy reason was “Punto is back.” Never mind the Twins were on an unbelievable run with Harris as our everyday SS, and have since gone into the tank with Punto’s return to the lineup. Punto was literally handed the starting shortstop position. He did nothing to earn it. Fact is, Punto is handed everything on a silver platter, while others will never be able to work their way into Gardy’s good graces. Let me also point out that Punto’s name NEVER comes up in Gardy’s postgame press conferences when he makes an error or a stupid baserunning play. On the other hand, Harris was criticized BY NAME on numerous occasions. That he’s blamed for Joe Nathan’s abomination of a throw is just more proof in the pudding that Harris can do no right in Gardy’s eyes. No way in hell does he rip into Punto if he’s playing 3rd on that play. And don’t tell me Punto would have made the play. Maybe he would have. But there have been MANY MANY other routine plays that Punto has botched that Harris makes routinely. NO MENTION OF THIS BY GARDENHIRE!! EVER! If you guys refuse to see the double standard, you’re exactly the lackeys the Twins want in their fans.
Stats, Stats, Stats….just like the bogus stat that Lefty’s can’t hit righty’s and Busher stinks in night games after 6:01pm when the wind is blowing 5 mph from the east.
How can you compare LNP and Harris when Harris basically has never been given the opportunity to start in a regular basis like LNP and his string of 50 straight starts. Play a little here and play a little there. I wonder what his stats would be if he actually was given a fair shot to play and rewarded for going 8-17 in the stretch LNP was on the DL. I think Harris would be a pretty good player if he wasn’t benched if he made an error.
BTW..Wasn’t Everett signed to be the everyday SS. I think he may have played some key games in his career down the stretch to warrant his play in some key games. Nice work FO.
I was close last night for LNP…(2)ground outs to 2nd, K, DP to SS, and a 2b’er….I guessed 0-5..not bad. Let’s throw him right back in there because of his grit and goes 110%, and plays Twins Baseball…whatever…UTILITY, can you say UTILITY.
BOTTOM LINE
2 on, 2 out, down by 2 in the 9th with runners in scoring position against Papalbon and Red Sox. Who would you rather have up?
LNP or Harris…..nuff said
My theory on the Joe Mauer haters is that they are jelous because the ladies love him and they try to cut him down by saying he doesn’t have enough homeruns and such. Now don’t get me wrong, I’d love it if he was closer to 20 homeruns and still had this same batting avg. however I’m not going to cry about it.
Kay,
All MLB players can have short stretches of being hot. Sadly for Harris those are real short and few and far between. He is simply a bad hitter. No way to sugar coat how bad his numbers are. Combine that with his cement feet and you have the worst middle infield option in the majors.
He makes LNP look like an everyday player, that is all you need to know about Harris.
Bobby,
Harris was playing on a very regular basis for much of the first part of this season. I don’t know what you are talking about. He failed miserably. You ask who I would rather have up? How about the guy with a better ave, obp, and slugging %. Yes that is LNP.
Matt Dahl,
LNP had been putting up superior play before he was injured. He had earned the everyday position over Harris before he was injured. Sure he struggled at first coming back, but he has stabalized and continues to outplay him.
Harris was an everyday player at the beginning of the year, NOT LNP. remember that. Who was handed a starting position?
bottom line LNP is deeply flawed - he slides into first base like a little kid on a caffeine and sugar high, he makes maddening errors on easy plays at times,he makes occasional baserunning gaffes like a drunken sailor, he has no power and tries to hit a 3 run HR with 1 runner on base at times -
BUT he is the best option on the roster for SS - if he wants more then 1M a year after this year when he is a free agent then tell him “bye bye” and use the cheaper minor league kids until a real SS is signed
Matt,
Let’s stop the name calling.
FIRE GARDY,
Your post sums up exactly how I feel.
Sorry Howard.
I’m just frustrated with Gardy’s and Punto’s cushy relationship. Punto will be Gardy’s successor as manager someday.
thanks Howard for this story. the other day I saw a story from Olney’s trades section.right now this is a rumor. Rockies are looking for starting pitching, they are looking to MN for slowey or Perkins for their 3B Aitkins. If this turns out to be true I have no objection to Perkins being traded. As for Harris,buscher neither one of these guys impress me playing 3B(errors)and torberg SS/3B someone thinks he is a good player. However, any player that is dumb enough to slide into base head first like Torberg, Punto, Casilla, Cuddyer can’t be to bright by injuring themselves in the process. Spring of next year if Gomez has not cleaned up his act when it comes to hitting then he has earn himself a oneway ticket to Rochester……
FIRE GARDY - You may be right about him being the best option. I personally do not agree….but OK. The problem is, the Twins are not going to let Punto go. They are already paying him well over $1 million per season. Rumor has it, they are close to signing him for approximately $3 million per year for multiple years. That’s the main problem with Punto. As long as Punto is a Twin, he will see way too much playing time. There is no denying that.
are you people crazy? Fire Gardy? The Twins would be nuts to do that. He consistently takes his teams to winning seasons (I know last years wasn’t) by making them play good baseball. This year he has been saddled with a faltering bullpen of late, loss of 2 all stars, playing washed up vets early in the year, and yet we still keep winning. If the Rays were their typical selfs, Maddon wouldn’t even be talked about….it would Gardy for MOY.
Hey twins fans…… does anyone no were i can get the audio of the My baby waves her homer hanky??????
Howard…I thought your zone ratings of Punta looked off. I checked gleeman’s blog (yesterday’s post) and he has different numbers than you. Maybe I am reading this wrong, but I don’t think so.
Matt LNP sees too much playing time because Billy has not signed EITHER
1)a 2nd baseman so Casilla can go to SS
or
2)a upgrade over LNP for SS
I don’t like it one bit and I absolutely despise LNP playing everyday as many regulars on the blogs can confirm BUT the problem is Billy not necessarily Gardy Billy needs to save Gardy from himself !! get a real SS!!!!!!!!!1
“BOTTOM LINE
2 on, 2 out, down by 2 in the 9th with runners in scoring position against Papalbon and Red Sox. Who would you rather have up?
LNP or Harris…..nuff said”
Actually I’d rather have LNP bat against Pap, seeing as how he is 1 for 2 against him and Harris is hitless against him…
AaronK says:
September 10th, 2008 at 10:16 am
Bobby,
Harris was playing on a very regular basis for much of the first part of this season. I don’t know what you are talking about. He failed miserably. You ask who I would rather have up? How about the guy with a better ave, obp, and slugging %. Yes that is LNP
GAME OVER
take 1st pitch for strike right down the middle, ball one in dirt, saw one off the and hit someone in the face in the front row because you can’t get around on the pitcher, then take an inside pitch for strike thre…but move off the plate like it is going to hit you and then yell at the ump like you were screwed over!
Can this be linked at the beginning of every game thread? I mean seriously, that’s a wonderful breakdown of the situation.
It’s amazing how often emotion is used as a judge over the most concrete measure of all.
But tragically, it won’t stop anything. It’ll be interesting to see some of the responses to this as the day continues.
And FTR: Nick Punto is the only player in baseball that actually makes “fans” more angry the BETTER he plays.
He hits a homerun, the Vocal Majority lights up the blogs with “Well great…now he’ll be in the lineup tomorrow.”
The only reason people want Harris playing over Punto is because his name isn’t Punto.
ATTENTION BLOG MONITOR ON DECK!!
all opinions must be sactioned by him!
no take is so small that can’t be used in a retort post just to have material to write about…
Thank you, Howard.
This might have been your best blog of the year. Your opinions are dead-accurate.
Of course, unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your view), none of the above critiques has anything to do with the real problem this season–the bullpen.
But I couldn’t agree more re: Harris v. Punto, Go-go to minors, and Perkins…
A slight diversion on the Mauer thing…Mauer has been a true catalyst, but Dick Bremer was at his you-know-what kissing worst last night when he expressed shock that Mauer’s name hasn’t come up in MVP conversation (yes, this was before Morneau launched a two-run homer).
Here’s the thing Dick–Mauer is what he is…he’s not a Messiah–he’s a great player to have in your everyday lineup, but singles hitters are not league MVPs!
Howard was looking at zone rating (zr) and gleeman was looking at revised zone rating (rzr) which shows Punto to be just average at ss.
I don’t understand all the emotion on this subject of Punto vs Harris. I’ve said before that I’d give the nod to Punto, but I’d be happy if Smith dumped both of them this ofseason.
What bothers me the most is that Gardy never pinch hits for Punto either, no matter what the situation.
“does anyone no were i can get the audio of the My baby waves her homer hanky??????”
Call me up… I’ll sing it!
ATTENTION BLOG MONITOR ON DECK!!
all opinions must be sactioned by him!
Is this seriously it? Howard puts together a well thought out blog, and out of ALL the people that respond in agreement…I’m singled out?
FIRE, at the risk of being banned by Howard for saying it….you seriously need to just cram it.
And what about our man Jason Kubel…take away the Seattle series at the Metrodome and the guy has been virtually non-existent since the All-Star break, in terms of run production and power….it seems like every night he gives us 1-for-4 with a single.
Yet, he’s finally developed into the No. 5, everyday hitter that so many have wanted. What’s the story here? I say this is proof positive that the platoon system Gardy has used with Kubel was the right approach. It does seem like we’re reaching the law of diminishing returns and for a guy with no speed, I don’t see him as the answer in the 5-hole long term.
Thoughts?
seth im sure you got a great voice but i really what the actual song
And to all those who are actually calling on managment to fire Gardy YOU’RE OUT OF YOUR MIND!!!!!!!!! He is one of if not the smartest manager in the majors and knows how to teach the game.
How about a a real topic
Why does Punto play every single day no matter what….instead of any other player?
Howard,
I agree with most of the things you are saying but I will cry foul about the Buscher and Punto part of the post:
Zone rating is an archaic stat. A much better way to measure someones fielding performance is the revised zone rating and win shares produced by fielding (both numbers freely available at the Hardball Times web site). Here are the numbers for the foursome in question, with fielding win shares normalized for comparison’s sake and FPs indicated:
Buscher:
3B revized zone rating: .693, fielding % .931
total fielding win shares: 0.8 (463 innings) or .173/100 innings
Harris:
SS RZR: .778, FP .976
3B RZR: .718, FP .977
2B RZR: .864, FP .969
Total fielding win shares: 3.4 (959 innings) or .354/100 innings
Punto:
SS RZR: .841, FP .967
2B RZR: .760, FP .985
total fielding win shares: 2.7 (670 innings) or .403/100 innings
Everett:
SS RZR: .847 FP .965
total fielding win shares: 2.1 (346 inn) or .607/100 innings
Clearly, Butcher is … well a Butcher. He is way bellow every one here as far as defense goes… Harris would be a better alternative at third base and Everett would be a better alternative at SS. This change should have happened earlier this week, since the twosome of starters at 3B and SS lost 2 games with their fielding…
T,
I do not want Harris playing over Punto. I want Harris playing over Butcher. I do want Everett playing over Punto.
I agree all around. Gomez has been a solid contributer even if he’s in the nine slot. Heck, he chased Verlander again the other night, and his outfield play has been quite good, despite a couple mental errors here and there.
He still even in the nine slot adds a dynamic to this team. The Gomez, Span, Punto, Mauer, Morneau combo is pretty scary when its working, and its worked a lot.
Jason, take away the Seattle games period and Kubel has struggled. Almost the opposite of how he came on in the first place last year at about this time.
Is he
Why does Punto play every single day no matter what….instead of any other player?
I believe since he was called up for the second time, Span has not had a day off. Nor has Casilla (not counting DL time)
And then there’s Morneau. The only player who hasn’t MOVED from his spot in the lineup since Day 1.
Whoops. Didn’t finish that response to Jason.
He may not be the #5 option now that he’s had more time (and the league is getting to know him), but I still argue that he or Young are the best options…and Delmon seems to be getting comfy where he’s at.
I still really wish that Cuddy hadn’t gotten hurt. Span/Mauer/Cuddyer (healthy)/Morneau could’ve been pretty dangerous.
thrylos: Interesting breakdown. How does Harris’ bat compare to Buscher’s though?
There’s a reason Brendan Harris only lasts one season with every team he plays for. He’s got serious range limitations and his intensity isn’t the greatest. Punto has much more fire and desire.
How does Harris’ bat compare to Buscher’s though?
the last 2 weeks Harris has a .771 OPS and Butcher .764, so I’d say its a draw. (Punto’s OPS is .688 for that time period, as a comparison)
I don’t know stats, but Brendan Harris is hands down the best clutch hitter on the roster.
“his intensity isn’t the greatest.”
Making things up is cool.
thats a very bold statement
Canoozer….I’m speechless.
Holy Cow, having a very good defense up the middle, is something any manager or fan wants. There have been many successful teams that have had weak hitting center fielders, but had great gloves. You can’t beat having a guy like Gomez roaming around out there, and a little growing up will help the other mental mistakes. We have Gomez, Cassilla and Mauer. Now we just need a solid shortstop, (too bad about Bartlet)
and you might be reminded of the those Oriole teams with Blair, Belanger, Johnson and Elrod.
let’s drill down to the nitty gritty..
Twin’s need upgrades at 3rd and SS - the current collection of Harris/Buscher/LNP/Tolbert/Macri are all platoon at best regularly bench/pinch hitters
way back when Buscher started to get bashed for his DEF the discussion was whether he with alot of work could improve his DEF enough to be a compentent 3rd baseman (like Koskie did) not sure if he or Harris for that matter can improve to that degree
the following is a link to ranking of the Twins’ infielders (2B, 3B, SS) by RZR.
If the link does not work, this is how they rank, descending:
2B:
Harris
Tolbert
Casilla
Punto
SS:
Everett
Punto
Tolbert
Harris
3B:
Harris
Tolbert
Buscher
Punto
Lamb
I loved your article, Howard. Punto is my favorite player, and he gets way too much negative feedback. I also agree with your comments about the other players. I’m too busy enjoying the games and the pennant race to complain all the time.
Thrylos98
The name is Buscher………….Give him some respect.
A valuable member of the Twins.
As Gardy said: He’s a gamer. Can you say that about Harris? No, because you don’t know the inside scoop on players.
He was the most improved player out of Spring training and will be again next Spring. I totally agree he needs to improve greatly his off target throwing but the man can hit. 45 RBIs in 60 games; .306 average……..GREAT teammate. Have the Twins thought of subbing for him in late innings…..
Beautiful wife from SC by the way…..
Most beautiful wife on the team……And I mean that in the most respectful way…..
Thank you Howard.
I have been saying that for the last two weeks.
It is trulu unbelievable that Howard posts logical reasons for Punto being in the line up and then the hatefilled bloggers totally ignore the statistical evidence or choose to not believe it and go right on with their attacks on every aspect of Punto’s game….some of it legitimate…most of it not. I’ve been a twins fan (and Minnesota) sports fan for over 50 years and I can never remember such a anger and hostility directed at any player, manager, coach, official, etc. This whole “Hate Punto” thing just boggles the mind. I am convinced that if a handful of these bloggers were together on a street corner and Nick Punto came down the street they would have him swinging by the neck from the nearest street light. This kind of thing makes me really wonder about human nature and just what’s happened to common sense and decent character values in our society. My fervent hope is that Nick Punto plays elsewhere next year where real “fans” will appreciate his value….and I’m sure that would be any of the other 29 teams.
Perkins isn’t even the best rookie ON THE TWINS. I can’t believe anybody is actually making that argument…..
Hear hear. I would say Blackburn, Slowey, Span, and Casilla are ahead of Perkins. And Buscher is not far behind. The only reason people talk about Perkins is his W-L record, which, as we know, does not reflect his overall value.
Nice post, Howard. Well researched and logical. Two things that are kryptonite to most of the readers of these blogs so it’s refreshing to read.
I still can’t stand Fake Hustle Punto, but I have to agree that he’s a better option than Harris. Everything else you wrote is right on the money.
Great post Jack Legg…..yes it isn’t just Punto who gets all the hate and disrespect. The “Gang” here likes to doll some of it out to guys like Busher, Everett and others too…….all of it totally unreasonable and unfair. It’s just that Punto has been so villified and made such a pariah by them that it’s just way beyond anything that makes any sense at all..
My fervent hope is that Nick Punto plays elsewhere next year where real “fans” will appreciate his value
2.5 Million worth…that would buy a lot of street lights and a real MLB SS too
Lew Ford as found a home in the Japan minor leagues, perhaps those fans would enjoy Punto too.
Bobby unfortunately 2.5M will not buy a decent anything anymore in MLB if Twins do not have a 2nd or SS in their minor league system then getting one will cost closer to 5M a year caveat - that is a substantial upgrade over LNP
At the Dome Tuesday night I saw Gomez make a running catch of a drive in the center/left gap. After the play I noted that he had run a very long distance to make that catch. Had to be forty yards in four seconds, and then he leaped to steal a double in the gap. Nobody, I mean NOBODY ELSE in the majors makes that catch. Maybe next spring Gomez should spend a couple months in AAA to work on his technique issues, but his speed in center field is far too valuable right now. Gomez saves Twins pitchers on a regular basis, along with Span and sometimes Delmon Young. The Twins outfielders today cover more ground than any other in the majors. BTW, I also saw Span almost nail a lazy baserunner at first off a fly ball hit to right field. The guy almost got the ultimate embarrassment because Span closed on the hit so fast and threw the ball in one quick motion. If Span hadn’t bounced the throw, the guy would’ve been out.
Punto = $2.4M in 2008
Harris = $386,100.00 in 2008
Bottom line is the Twins waste a lot of money on AVERAGE and BELOW AVG talent, when they could easily be replaced by other AVG players (AAA) that are cheap. Which they never seem to learn from year after year… and you think they would being a “small market” team.
Great topics and information Howard. Here is a different issue with the Punto & Gomez play that I haven’t seen raised here and it goes to Gardy.
He seems to forget who they (Go-Go & Punto) are and what they can do best to help the team when they are at the plate. Case in point was last night in the 5th, man on first, no outs. Punto grounds into double play with the team leading 7-2. Of course Gomez follows with a triple that ends up being an exciting play that’s only lasting benefit (he was stranded at 3rd) is that it hopefully helps Go-Go’s confidence.
In game where Casillia sac bunts in the first inning (because he’s given a “get’em over” sign according to Gardy which must be like the “get a hit kid” sign) and the result is Span scoring via a Mauer out (Span was moved from 2nd to 3rd by Alexi) why not continue to put the pressure on? Punto is not a power guy, not a high average guy and not likely to drive him in from first. He, and Carlos for that matter, are good bunters and since they hit 8th & 9th should be doing things like this to set the table for Span, Alexi, Mauer and Morneau. This is how you score a run on just one or two hits that are not home runs.
For all the talk of this being a “small ball” team it seems that Gardy is the one who forgets this. Sure there are times you need to let these guys swing away but not always. If they did this more often both Go-Go’s and Punto average would most likely be higher (less of there bad AB’s when guys are on) there would be more chances for the other guys to drive in runs and the terrible bullpen would have a little more wiggle room. Even if it fails at least you’ve given yourself a chance.
The Twins are the best NL team playing in the AL. Don’t forget it Gardy and they can still actually pull this thing off.
Who’s called for Perkins to be ROY? Awhile back I pointed out that the Twins want him to be considered, but I wasn’t saying I agree with it, just pointing that out in response to someone who said he should be a reliever. If he’s still new enough to the game to be considered a rookie, I’d say it’s a little early to make the call to move him to the pen. Yes, he’s been struggling in the later innings as of late, but it’s only a few games. Let’s see if he can work things out. As for who from the Twins would be the best ROY candidate, I’d have to go with Span, hands down.
MarkW F.O. is forced into trying to get “lucky” with a “rent a old wreck” veteran because of payroll restrictions
it never works and the team turns to minor leaguers anyway sometime during the year
So let’s recap: Gardy’s daily choices on the left side include the “worst infielder in the majors,’ and “The Butcher.” Two-thirds of his outfield is made up of a disappointing acquisition and someone half or more of the people here think should have spent the year in AAA. If that weren’t enough, he’s saddled with a bullpen full of gas cans and a star catcher who takes too many days off and doesn’t produce like he shoul when he does play. His five-hitter has been out for weeks. Last season’s offensive mvp and cy young caliber pitcher have left for the big money on the coast. And then, of course, there’s LNP, who he puts in the line-up every day, just as sort of an added challenge and to make sure everyone can see his disgusting double standard.
With all that, hardly anybody on the roster who’s worth a darn, the team must be 20 games out, eh? Well, 10 or 12, at least, even in a “weak” AL Central. Whaaaa? They’re a game out of a playoff spot with about 20 to play?
Gardy’s got a lock on manager of the year then? No? Some fans still want his head on a platter? That’s baseball, I guess. Crazy game, ain’t it?
Good perspective Howard! Like “Deb says”, it is too much fun to be focusing on the season they have had and the pennant race to be worried about individual players / management shortcomings.
The Twins have done a lot with what they have with the promise of a bright future.
Mike,
The issue was raised on the Twins web site and has been brought up during telecasts. Just felt a need to point out the silliness,
Fire,
it is not just $2.5M.
Here is the math:
2007 budget - 2008 budget = $15M
- Everett = $2.8M
- Punto = $2.4M
- Reyes = $1M
- Hernandez = $5M
- Monroe = $3.8M
- Rincon = $2.5M
total: $32.5M
enough for a 3B (via trade - at this point I wouldn’t mind if they try to get someone like Scott Rolen; he should be available and has a contract for 2 years at $11M per), SS (Furcal?) and a couple BP arms (and if they find a taker for Cuddyer, more than enough for a back up catcher)
FIRE: I dont think they are forced by any kind of payroll restrictions… they would have plenty if they didn’t waste it year after year on “rental players” or “veterans with presence”. I’m not sure WHY they do it, because it’s obvious to everyone it hasn’t worked out ONCE. Add up all the salary spent (and still being spent) on players that are no longer on the roster… Lamb, Monroe, Rincon, Bass, Hernandez for starters…
Thrylos98 makes a nice list as to what i was getting at… and it’s not about spending it all on 1 player (3B) or just spending money in general, it’s about allocating your money into the right areas and where you need it. You needed to sign Morneau and Mauer, you will have to give some other guys some big money as well, just the way it is… but you dont need to pay Livan Hernandez 7 million dollars to suck for half the season…
Howard you know without the Punto haters your blog traffic would go down 50% i mean he’s the Twins scapegoat the guy everyone wants to rip that’s never going to stop. Good try though.
thyroid98.6,
Please stop calling him Butcher!
Fran your description of the team’s flaws are spot on BUT giving Gardy MOY because the entire division stinks (Whites are just as flawed as the Twins) is the wrong conclusion to come to.
Twin’s have a losing AL record outside the Al Central 27-38 38-23 in the division 14-4 against NL
this team couldn’t compete in AL West or AL East right now
Someone said that Nick Punto’s hustle was fake. Now there’s a brilliant statement. What a joke. How can you “fake” hustle? You can’t. There’s no way to “fake” hustle…you’re either hustling or your not. Saying someone’s hustle is fake is either just a stupid comment made without any thought behind it or it’s a comment made out of hate and anger. The first can probably be excused…the second is truly a sad commentary. You almost have to pity a person whose driven by so much hostility.
Carlos Gomez speed is fake, Joe Nathan’s fast ball is fake, Justim Morneau’s home run stroke is fake, Joe Mauer’s sweet swing is fake, Denard’s Span’s plate discipline is fake, ….how much more do you want…..all of this makes as much sense as Punto’s hustle is fake.
If that statement refers to Punto’s diving into first base….that has nothing to do with hustle. Certainly it makes no sense to dive/slide into first base….but he’s not the only one who does it…Gomez did it this weekend, I’ve seen Harris do it, I’ve seen Casilla do and I’m sure others have too…..is there hustle also fake….or perhaps, do you just have a vendetta against Nick Punto…and, if so, how fair is that?
Here is the math:
2007 budget - 2008 budget = $15M
- Everett = $2.8M
- Punto = $2.4M
- Reyes = $1M
- Hernandez = $5M
- Monroe = $3.8M
- Rincon = $2.5M
total: $32.5M
that’s 6 positions that still need money thrown at them you can’t just assume the 2 reliever spots and 2nd/SS(where Punto/Everett were paid to play at)
but I get your point the 15M payroll drop is the kicker and I believe that Pohlad had to foot more money out of his own pocket to buy the stadium site land - guessing “Smiling Carl” told Billy your payroll for 2008 just gfot smaller!!
sorry….there should be their
I wonder if any thought is ever given to who might read this drivel. I wonder if Nick Punto himself ever reads it….and I’m sure you would really love it if he does….I bet you hope that he does…..but what about his wife, mother, father….he has a small baby, what what if he had kids who could read……bet it would make you feel big if he had a 8 year old son who read this stuff. Think about it.
I guess a more direct way if saying it is, Punto (and Gomes) doesn’t need to have Harris like offensive numbers (although it’s fine). He can be more valuable to the team by doing the things he is best suited for (small ball, bringing speed to the bases) which would help the team score more runs. In the field you have to live with him or play Everett for now.
Go Twins!
My favorite headfirst slide is still Mauer’s into first at a key moment.
I could just picture the Strib boards lighting up with venom.
sodak,
have a look at the 1st amendment, please.
Last time I checked, this was not China.
And translating “Punto’s performance is sub par & there might be better choices” into “someone ‘hates Punto’” is grossly inaccurate.
some of these posts are getting slightly creepy, just throwin that out there.
you mean like maybe LNP himself is making entries?
I think Punto has somewhere around a 315 average with runners in scoring position. Try and find another player in the league with 280 at bats carrying that average with runners in scoring position and only 25 RBI’s on the season and just 2 in his last 23 games. But he is projected to finish with 31 total. We need more than what Nick provides in getting runs home.
I think we ALL agree this team needs an upgrade over LNP.. but that upgrade is nowhere on the bench or in the minors and ready so until the offseason starts LNP is the best there is, we need to realize that and move on!
Get over yourself Sodak.
In a Seth interview D. Span admitted he read the blogs and what was being said about him, most of which was negative and he said it just motivated him to work harder.
So, who is to say the negative bloggers aren’t responsible for pushing Span into what he is today?
You’re welcome.
Howard:
Thanks for putting Punto into perspective. The Punto scapegoating thing on this blog is borderline imbecilic.
Anyone else notice where Jason Bartlett rates in defensive SS stats that Howard provided? Hindsight is always 20/20, but if the Twins FO knew over the winter that this team would contend, would they have given up on Bartlett and Garza? At the time, it looked like an even trade, one in which the Twins could develop DY and Tampa would benefit with pitching and defense. 3 years from now it might end up even again. But we sure wouldnt be wondering about how to fill SS if we hadnt included Bartlett.
I am an unabashed Punto basher. He’s a good utility player. But he has proven repeatedly that he’s not an everyday player. And his everyday play is what people object to here more often than not.
I still don’t buy that Punto is all that great a short stop. Has everyone just forgot the recent road trip in which he gave a few games away by trying to showboat with his glove on routine plays? He’s the best option we have right now, but that’s not saying much.
As for his hustle being fake: Well, it’s not fake. He really does look like he’s hustling. The thing is, he doesn’t need to hustle all the time. So some of his hustle is just showing off. And some of it does more harm than good, as in the times he’s slid into first and ensured that he would be on the back end of a DP with a runner on third and one out. Could he have beaten it out if he ran through the bag? Well, he’d have a better chance anyway. And don’t get me started on his inability to bunt. No, he’s a flawed player who’s better off on the bench where his flaws are not so apparent in every game.
Great post Howard. Of all the lines in this thread, this is the best, for it’s double meaning:
“It’s time to stop turning Brendan Harris into Derek Jeter.”
I don’t completely agree with your concluson, as RZR is considered the better stat now. However, I think the best point made in this thread was the wet noodle vs a sword point. The frustration comes not only from this year, but also:
Punto was historically bad last year
Harris was acquired in a trade this year, and does not appear to have been given a chance
Other players are called out by name by the manager, but it does not appear that Punto is…..there are a lot of emotional reasons in this discussion, not just logic.
As for Gomez (some of the emotion with him is his teasing us early in the year, and his being the only {bad} return for Cytana so far), I find it hard to believe the Pridie (named best defensive CF by BA, I believe, in the league) would be as bad a hitter. It would be nice to have had him up for a couple of weeks in July to see if he could hit or not (yes, small sample size I know). He has talent (Gomez), but that is no guarantee he’ll get better for sure. Just ask Cleveland how their “we have a young team, so of course we’ll be better next year” theory worked out this year.
(was that a new record for parenthesis [sic] statements?)
Howard, maybe Harris is now playing worse (Oakland series) because the fact he has to play behind someone that he knows is not good as him. How would you react if tomorrow the Trib says you can no longer do this article on a daily basis, and we’ll let T do it everyday. Sure T may not have the power to jolt the readers, or knowledge to lash doubles into peoples head, but T battles everyday and can field questions in the hole. (that was really cheesy)
If that were to happen, you are saying you wouldn’t be psychologically affected? If someone gave my job away for no apparent reason, and it was like russion roullette when I actually did my job in the week, it would affect me. Damn right it would. All the stats in the world mean nothing right now. It all comes back to Harris did nothing wrong to deserve benching, except help the Twins win ballgames in June.
I am officially retiring from the Harris vs. Punto debate. Go Twins!
I wonder if any thought is ever given to who might read this drivel. I wonder if Nick Punto himself ever reads it….and I’m sure you would really love it if he does….I bet you hope that he does…..but what about his wife, mother, father….he has a small baby, what what if he had kids who could read……bet it would make you feel big if he had a 8 year old son who read this stuff. Think about it.
When they get older they can read all the blogs they want in the newspaper of the team he should be on
http://www.democratandchronicle.com/
rayreiner,
Bartlett rates lower than both Everett and Punto defensively at SS. His RZR is .805 vs .847 for Everett and .841 for Punto. His OPS is .672 which is in between Punto’s and Everett’s. So, not a very big loss; not to mention that Harris’ bat is much better than Bartlett’s.
Again, looking at Garza, the man who replaced him in the Twins’ rotation (Blackburn) has about the same performance (10-8 3.67 ERA vs 11-9 3.55 ERA) with that of Garza’s this year and much better than Garza’s last year.
So, I would say that those 2 parts even out and the trade was Morlan (3.64 ERA, 1.26 WHIP 15 BB 35 K this year in AA) for Young and Pridie, which makes the result a landslide for the Twins…
Let’s change to a new subject.
What do you think of Punto?
Howard
I totally agree with everything. I went to my first Twins game in 1962. And from afar,it is my view the sports acuman of the average Twin or Vikes blogger is very low.
Like a young third Grader they focus on Home Runs and RBI’s and generally do not understand the nuances of the game.
Bobby, if you are saying we shouldn’t criticize players, I just don’t agree. It is the fact that people actually care about who wins that puts millions in these guys’ pockets. If people weren’t irrational about teams they ahve no relationship with, these guys would be “working” in an office like the rest of us. It is the irrationalness of fans that actually makes them rich (along with their immense talent at what they do, even the lesser of them).
Stick around, AJ. You are a voice of reason, and for that I thank you.
Actually, baseball prospectus is quite clear that Garza will be more valuable, as it is the ability to get strikeouts that differentiates the winners and losers in the post season. Garza has that ability. Of course, as with any result derived from statistical analysis, there are those that disagree….
Bobby Randall: LOL! I have often wondered how Punto even advanced past AA. Why was it decided that he ever deserved AAA playing time? I think this was in the Phillies organization, so they are partly to blame. But look at his minor league stats and tell me what made this guy stand out as a future big leaguer? He was clearly given preferential treatment as a young minor leaguer, and he’s somehow been able to turn it into a big league career.
mike wants wins says:
September 10th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
Bobby, if you are saying we shouldn’t criticize players, I just don’t agree. It is the fact that people actually care about who wins that puts millions in these guys’ pockets. If people weren’t irrational about teams they ahve no relationship with, these guys would be “working” in an office like the rest of us. It is the irrationalness of fans that actually makes them rich (along with their immense talent at what they do, even the lesser of them).
Rip them all you want…I think it is a travesty that fans have to pay full price for some of those Thursday line-ups they put out there and that LNP plays 50 straight games!
How about a comment from a fan who has been plucked in the face from one of those sawed off balls in the front row before a called 3rd strike?
With apologies to Seth, who does great work with his Q & As I misremembered.
And with an apology to Josh, Span talked about the Blogs here.
The Perkins ROY thing is so ridiculous, and I hate to be redundant, but the guy has basically had one decent month and his overall numbers are almost across the board not as good as Blackburn’s. The only place where Perkins is better is Wins, and everybody knows that wins is a misleading, opportunistic beast of circumstance statistic that really has no place in a decent baseball discussion, so there you have it. Perkins is not only not the best ROY cadidate on the entire team (Span is), but he’s not even the best ROY cadidate on the whole rotation (Blackburn.)
I find it hard to believe the Pridie (named best defensive CF by BA, I believe, in the league) would be as bad a hitter
Many here and elsewhere complain loudest about Gomez’s strikeouts (128 in 508 ABs). If you don’t like that, you’re bound to hate Pridie (114 SO in 428 ABs). The difference is, Gomez has struck out against major league pitchers at a lower rate than Pridie has struck out against AAA pitchers. Also, Pridie might be the best center fielder in AAA, but Gomez is the best center fielder in the majors. There are about 40 center fielders who would rate somewhere in between. Pridie has nowhere near the range of Gomez.
mike ww,
I agree with the statement about K’s and I just checked out Garza’s stats. His K’ per 9 innings dropped significantly this year and his BB/K got higher… He would have been 4th in the Twins rotation as far as K/9 innings go:
Liriano: 54 IP, 25 BB, 45 K
Slowey: 139.3 IP, 18 BB 109 K
Baker: 147.7 IP, 36 BB 119 K
Garza: 170 IP, 52 BB 119 K
Wow, I’m new here, but a previous comment said something about Punto and his family might be reading this and affecting them and Nick. Heck if I was Nick or his son I’d be smiling every payday with that 2.4 million no matter what I read. I think Nick and his family are just fine.
I will be the first to admit that yes, I miss Jason Tyner. Watching him hit that HR last year was very exciting… But I think I liked him more cause he was the underdog…
I’m a big supporter of the DY trade, but I have to admit that Garza’s IP would have come in handy with the Twins crappy bullpen.
Gomez reminds me of a young Randy Moss. Ego, talent, needing time to grow into one of the best.
When he isn’t in the line up there is a certain something missing. Good game or not, he brings a spark that is almost palpable.
I’m glad that some of you aren’t my boss or parent; the way you react to a team you claim to support or even love.
How angry and unforgiving you are in the face of mistakes, bad days, or inexperience. How quickly you can forget about accomplishments or how to be proud of the fact our team is in a pennant race.
GO TWINS, ESPECIALLY PUNTO!
Good reading today.
I’ve been frustrated by Punto, at times, and when he screws up, he deserves to be criticized just like anyone else would. But the treatement he gets here is usually well over the top. I’ve gotten to where I just skip past any discussion about him because it’s not going to be any different today than it was last month or last year. It will be interesting to see what the Twins do with him. He’s being paid based on a contract negotiated when he was expected to be the everyday 3B. That has not turned out to be the case.
I also am amused by the criticism of Smith, in particular for “giving up” on Garza and Bartlett. Talk about short memories. After last season, just about the ONLY thing there was consensus around here about was the need to add offense, even if it meant giving up some of the young pitching.
So he gives up what it takes to bring in arguably the best offensive rookie in the AL last season and now, with 20-20 hindsight, he’s criticized for giving up too much or getting too little. A little consistency is too much to ask, I guess. On the other hand, I guess we do just keep reading posts proposing that more of the pitching be dealt for Atkins, Beltre, etc. I can’t wait to see the second guessing if that happens and the pitcher who gets dealt has a good season next year. For some reason, the expectation seems to be that Smith ought to be able to only trade guys who will end up being average or worse ballplayers, yet should be getting all-stars in return.
Young, Gomez and Span are all just kids. If they’d gone through college, they’d probably just be finishing up. Those guys, and throw in Cuddyer, are going to constitute a very, very good offensive and defensive outfield for several seasons, assuming they stay healthy… and Pridie looks like someone who can step in if someone does get hurt (or can be used as a trade chip). Harris is what everyone knew he was at the time of the trade… a below average fielder with enough offense to contribute. He didn’t turn out to be the everyday 2B they thought he might be, but he was never anything close to being a critical component of that trade.
I may be the one who said something to assume I thought Perkins was the Twins best rookie. I mentioned that Longoria will probably win it, that Perkins and Galarraga would get consideration and Ellsbury and Murphy were involved in the discussion earlier. I posted that hurriedly and apologize.
I would agree that Blackburn’s been better, or at least more consistent throughout the year. Span has been incredible, far exceeding any reasonable expectation, especially since his second promotion. He’s been catalyst, but I think his time up has been too short to be a strong contender. Buscher has been good. He started out getting all those RBI early. He’s hardly even mentioned, and I don’t think he’s a legit contender.
Just FYI - I do know that Slowey and Casilla are not rookies.
As for the Span Q&A, I wish I could claim that one. Josh did a nice job, and Denard answered very well. he was even very nice this past winter when I talked to him briefly about it.
The people who rag on Punto are the people with too much long-term memory and not enough short-term memory. I’d like to post side-by-side pictures showing what Punto looks like now compared to past years… Have you noticed how much he’s bulked up? Punto’s problem in past years has never been making contact with the ball, it has been hitting the ball hard enough to get it out of the infield without popping it straight up. Now he has the strength, while retaining the speed, making him a much better hitter. That’s why he’s finally getting some results on offense. The people who criticize him are still talking about the Nick Punto who USED TO play for the Twins. The Punto of today is a different guy, and those detractors would do well to realize that.
Garza’s IP would have come in handy with the Twins crappy bullpen
Garza would not have allowed to pitch that many innings by Gardy and Andy…
“But I think I liked him more cause he was the underdog…”
Probably because it couldn’t have been because he was good.
i have a trade idea which could solve some of our issues;
slowey (fly ball pitcher) going to a big park, harris a decent utility guy, and boof who could do alright in the nl and in a bigger park (insert any other prospect for boof/harris as needed) for kevin kouzmanoff to play 3b, matt antonelli to replace harris as a utility guy that can play 3b or 2b and is a fairly decent prospect. the padres need pitching and they have chase headley to play 3rd his natural position and antonetti is stuck in the minors.
of course we’d have to resign punto (3yr-10m) to play ss because i’ve now seen the light and realize all my frustrations with him playing everyday were wrong and misguided.
Harris should be starting at SS. Period. First of all, he’s a very good hitter and hasn’t been allowed to show it because Gardenhire won’t give him consistent atbats. Getting in a good hitting groove is all about rhythm, and Gardenhire simply won’t allow him that.
Defensively, Punto is superior, but ever notice how when he does make an error it’s at the most inopportune time? I realize Harris isn’t Ozzie Smith, but consistent playing time would only help him offensively AND defensively.
And then there’s Punto’s hitting. He still thinks he’s a HR hitter. A player of his stature should be hitting the ball on the ground and running like hell. Instead, all he tries to do is find the gap or hit it over the fence. He still can’t get it through his stubborn skull that he needs to play to his strengths, not his weaknesses.
Let’s not forget the team’s best stretch this year occurred when Punto was hurt and Harris was the everyday SS. Now inexplicably Harris is the third string 3rd baseman AND the third string SS. Get a clue Gardenhire.
Sorry Howard, but the crap Punto takes IS proportionate to what he deserves! He’s a UTILITY player. Nothing more, nothing less.
Excellent post. All tremendous points. Please take over for Sid!
slowey
bonser
harris
for
Kouzmanoff and
antonelli?
add Jake Peavy and this might be balanced… As a matter of fact, I wouldn’t trade Slowey for Peavy straight up
Gobble - how did Antonelli hit at AAA this year? Do you have his stat line? I think you should post that and then let people state what they think about him, or trading Slowey to get him. Kouzmanoff is solid, but unspectacular. Buscher and a right-handed 3B will be fine for a year at the bottom of the order before Luke Hughes or probably Danny Valencia take over the position.
Paul,
Please don’t give anyone any ideas.
Absolutely love the post. I’ve been correcting people for a couple months now everytime they attack Punto and chant for Harris. Harris is terrible. I’ve seen him watch more 3rd pitch strikes go by than grounders get past him… which is a lot. Love my boy Punto and Go-Go is sittin back and learning while keeping our outfield grass nice and green by keeping fly balls from putting marks in it. We need to unload Harris… maybe we can get a couple of extra baseballs so our middle relief can practice more… Nah, we’d never get an offer that good from another team for Harris
Antonelli hit .215/.335/.322 in the PCL (which translates to about .185/.300/.290 in the IL) and is currently hitting .048/.091/.048 for the Padres…
Winger, the anti-punto faction needs stats, man, stats! Howard and his punto-loving minions aren’t going to roll over in the face of mere conjecture and heart-felt anecdotes! Alas, I can’t really find any but hopefully you can. I will say though, at least Harris is young and still has a little upside potential. I think we saw the best LNP can be in 2006.
Harris can’t be a MLB SS, defensively.
Proven in TB last year.
Proven in MN this year.
If given an every day 3B job, IMO he would hit well enough to keep the job.
Any correlation between the Twins playing their best baseball of the year while Brendan Harris was at SS… and the Twins playing their worst ball of the year with Nick Punto at SS?
sane,
I don’t think that Harris would hit on par for an every day 3B job. I think that both him and Tolbert would be fine utility people next year, but this team should go out and get a 3B. That said, I’d like him as the every day 3B this season ahead of Buscher.
I took gang-bang abuse from positing Punto’s viability on Joe C’s blog yesterday.
So, THANKS, Howard!
seth,
that’s a slippery slope
the Twins played their best baseball when Gomez was the lead off hitter, too
have a look at the 1st amendment, please.
Just a heads up: “Freedom of speech” on the internet isn’t neccesary as open and shut as you think.
The Strib boards are a commericial publication, and as such they have the right to deny access to those they feel are contributing negatively to the conversation. Especially when they are paying money to operate and maintain the resources on which you are posting your content.
The idea that the first amendment is some kind of carte blanche on the web is a common misconception of trollers and spammers.
Not saying you are one simply for citing the First Amendment, but just letting you know that it’s not as open and shut as that.
And translating “Punto’s performance is sub par & there might be better choices” into “someone ‘hates Punto’” is grossly inaccurate.
As is translating: “There are more problems than Punto” to “Nothing the FO ever does is wrong.”
And yet just as prevalent.
antonetti has had very good #’s in the minors until this yr. that being said he may have hit his ceiling or needs a yr to adjust like casilla and span did,
kousmanoff could hit 25+ hr’s in a normal size park. maybe i’m wrong again i just don’t see buscher as a major league 3b.
atkins could be an option but his splits don’t look good coors field tends to distort #’s.
it may be better to wait a few yrs for some guys to make it, of course we’ll have other guys getting to expensive so then we start over, always a couple of players short with a bandaid in place.
I don’t care about stats. We’re never going to get accurate stats out of Harris until he has the opportunity to play everyday. I think the ability is there to be a very good hitter if given the opportunity. I think he can be an adequate defensive player too. Punto has already shown he’s trash. He’s a utility player. Spot starter. Late inning defensive replacement. Pinch runner. He should not be playing everyday. Harris should get his shot. We can only hope Billy Smith sees this. He’s already cast off players of the Tyner, Ford, and L-Rod ilk. Hopefully he does the same with Punto. I’d be all for keeping him around as a utility player. That won’t happen as long as Gardenhire’s the manager. Gardy will always find a way to keep him in the lineup everyday. He’s one of Gardy’s boys.
“…there’s no reasonable measure for anyone to make the argument that Harris should be in the lineup and Punto should be sitting.”
Yes, but there’s one small argument which I posted yesterday. Punto fizzled at this time in the season in 2006. Maybe Gardy should give him a day off. I nominate tomorrow as that day (with Liriano pitching).
Winger,
Harris is 6th on the Twins in plate appearances. That’s a lot of playing time. Of course, you don’t “care about stats,” so I guess someone else will have to find a way to say that Harris was playing pretty regularly for much of the season — and that his performance was mediocre.
Justin,
Somehow the notion of “he’s the best we’ve got,” which pretty much summarizes the play-Punto faction, is hardly worthy of your label “Punto-loving minions.”
And are you sure that Harris, at 28, qualifies as “young” by baseball standards? Delmon (23 on Sunday) is young, Gomez (22) is young, Span (24) is young. Punto is 30.
That kind of misrepresentation is worthy of a political campaign, not a baseball blog.
(off-camera voice) “I’m Nick Punto, and I approve this message.”
Justin, I think there’s a case that could be made that this year’s Punto has been better than the 2006 Punto, except for the time on the DL. Certainly, statistically, the two seasons are close enough to contend that neither was significantly better than the other. The problem is, he was pretty bad in 2004 and 2006, so do you really feel comfortable counting on him to perform to this year’s level next year? Pretty risky.
Seth, if there’s a correlation, I would respectfully suggest it’s not exactly “Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc”. Just because one thing happens after another, doesn’t mean there’s a causative relationship. There were a few other guys involved with those wins besides Harris. One might want to check out comparative bullpen performances, for example.
Unless Punto’s somehow to blame for the pen imploding, too.
Furthermore: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
The Constitution was specifically written to protect the people from the government. Not a private citizen from another private citizen.
This is why I can throw you out of my home if you were to start insulting me, and why a newspaper can refuse to publish a contribution if it contains content it feels in appropriate for its readers.
Harris at league minimum, albeit not young, qualifies as inexpensive, whereas Punto at $2.4M a year, qualifies as throwing away money
Howard–great post–I was getting annoyed by all the anti-LNP comments here. Yes, he is a utility player that is all Nicky is–but he hustles and has for years and his defense over the past years has been above average. Is he worth 2.5 million–NO–but he is not deserving of the criticism he takes he.
I agree with Jim Crikket–Twins have good OF with Cuddy, GoGo, Span and Young. Twins need help on the left side of the IF–not sure where to get it–but they do need help from somewhere–maybe Furcal or Rolen but they seem injury prone.
DAM
“The problem is, he was pretty bad in 2004 and 2006, so do you really feel comfortable counting on him to perform to this year’s level next year?”
Sorry, obviously I meant he was pretty bad in 2005 and 2007. My bad.
We’re never going to get accurate stats out of Harris until he has the opportunity to play everyday.
It’s a classic Chicken n’ the Egg scenario:
“Harris doesn’t play more because he doesn’t have good stats.”
or
“Harris doesn’t have good stats because he doesn’t play more.”
Take the same stats and swap the names. Would we suddenly be clamoring for Punto to get more play time simply hoping it would “work out”?
The answer is an obvious: “No we would not.”
The primary issue when trying entering into any sort of discussion involving Punto is the inability to detatch the name from the stats.
T,
of course, the trib has the prerogative to delete anything and anything and ban people from posting.
That was not the argument.
My citation of the 1st amendment was a response to (paraphrase) “don’t write that Punto sucks because his kid might read it some day”
Wow now were getting into analysis of the first amendment. All i care about is the right to bear arms so i can wear my tanktops when it’s hot.
“Sorry, obviously I meant he was pretty bad in 2005 and 2007. My bad.”
Well, Crikk, at least you found a way to get this Twins fan to jump off his chair when the the game wasn’t on.
:)>
All i care about is the right to bear arms so i can wear my tanktops when it’s hot.
I always thought it meant we had a right to keep a pet Kodiak in our garage.
Are you telling me I may need to send Fonzy packing?
BC,
There are other blogs that deal with the 2nd Amendment!
thrylos,
We do have that prerogative. I do want to point out, though, that this blog reached its 20,000th comment during today’s discussion. In that time, I have deleted fewer than 100 comments and have banned only four people. That’s a tribute to the civility of the people who wander through Section 220 and something that is much appreciated by the guardian of this space.
Thanks for giving me a chance to say that.
DAM-DCTwinsFan: Again, the “facade” that Punto is a magician in the field has grossly overrated him for the past 3 years…
In fact, over the past two seasons Revised Zone Rating shows Punto as slightly above average at third base, slightly below average at shortstop, and well below average at second base… - AaaronGleeman.com
I hardly think this constitutes as an all-around above avg defensive player…
Gardenhire has stuck with Gomez through his struggles, he should have done the same with Harris. Gardenhire loathed the thought of dropping Gomez to 9th in the order because he didn’t want to kill his confidence. What does he think he’s doing to Harris’ confidence? You talk about destroying a players confidence. Gardenhire has showed no faith in Harris. When he does get an occasional start, he knows if he has a bad game he won’t play again for a week. No pressure there.
Every season, even the best teams are going to have a spot or two in their lineup where their regular guys are just not… good. That (and free agency, of course) is why even teams in first place and teams that are WS champions make roster moves.
As the Yankees keep demonstrating, even spending $200 million on payroll does not guarantee that you’re going to end up with .900 OPS guys at every position.
I’m a believer that young pitching staffs need above average defenses behind them. It allows them to pitch to contact and hold down BBs. I’ll be very disappointed if the Twins go out and trade pitching for a couple of ‘good hit, no D’ infielders in the off season, just because they feel the need to ‘replace’ Punto.
MarkW,
Great post, and to add to that, ever notice how many balls he’s booted when the game’s on the line? Punto is at his worst when the pressure’s on. Ask Nathan or Blackburn about that one.
Yes T and my arms are very hairy that’s why it’s my favorite.
Back to baseball though has anyone heard word on Konerko yet? I’m not one to cheer when someone gets hurt but losing him right now will really weaken the core of that sox lineup.
JimCrickett,
See the Revised Zone Rating on Punto in MarkW’s post. BELOW average at SS.
Good post jimmcrikket I think the majority of fans do expect perfection at every position and think the Twins should win every game.
Oh Howard, take it easy on Perk. He’s 19th in the AL for ERA in the last 30 days.
Here’s my answer to the call for long-term memory and stats all in one number: Punto’s career OPS+ = 74.
For reference, here are some notable comparbles:
Steve Lombardozzi 76
Ron Washington 79
Jay Canizaro 77
Denny Hocking 69
Good company, huh?
Howard,
I actually didn’t bother to look up how old he was and just assumed he was younger than that b/c he’s ‘only’ making 450,000 this year compared to that fat cat nicky… so Harris has got a young guy’s paycheck anyway. I guess you got me on this one, caught me inventing things. I just hope they find a better way to spend their money next year, but might as well throw him out there while they’re stuck with him. I remember Harris having a few clutch homeruns earlier in the season… I think they were bunched together a little bit too. Seeing a guy do that on this team with its general long ball deficiency could have been enough to win some of us here over and cloud the reality of the statistics. I could be inventing that one too… maybe somebody here can help me out with that theory.
Winger: Well said about Gomez… it’s one of the main things that bothers me about Gardy and the managing of players, he handles Gomez with “Kid Gloves” for the whole season so not to disrupt his highly sensitive psyche, meanwhile he throws Harris, Buscher, Kubel under the bus for failing to get a big hit or committing a costly error in the field. It’s the double standard I’ve seen for years now and it’s very irritating to lot of us on here I believe.
BC, are you daring to suggest that a defense with Griffey in CF and Swisher at 1B every day might result in an extra run being given up occasionally? I seem to recall suggesting that might be the case myself when they dealt for Griffey and so many people cited it as an example of how Williams was “trying” so much harder than Smith.
By the way… you don’t suppose, do you, that the whole argument re: guns in this country is all because the guys sitting around the room in Philadelphia mistook “bare” for “bear”? Wow. Disconcerting to think that Jefferson and his friends weren’t really any more literate than most of today’s bloggers.
Winger is right. I find it rather interesting that you tailor each arguement differently. Most noteably any hitting on Gomez, and the lack of clutch hitting numbers. Not that I disagree with all the points made. It just makes me question them when the arguements are not made equally, as if you cherry picked your stats.
IN FACT:
The rankings for AL starters the last 30 days in ERA:
Liriano 1st
Slowey- 9th
Baker - 16th
Perkins 19th
Blackie 26th
Presumably, there are about 60-70 starters in the rankings. And 30 days pretty much represents 5-6 starts per pitcher — a sufficient statistical amount.
It was fun boys! My time is up! Atleast a couple guys here have common sense!
Last I heard on Konerko was that he strained/sprained his MCL (which is the ligament you would want to hurt if you did - i think) So it’s not a tear and I would think he could be back this season.. but again, only my opinion.
So the 5-core is ahead of the likes of M. Buehrle, E. Jackson, M. Mussina, J. Danks, F. Hernandez, A. Pettitte, J. Garland, F. Carmona, J. Verlander, and B. Bannister (100th).
Looks like the grass ain’t greener this year.
I think we all could rest a little easier if LNP batted 9th and nothing else when he has to be in the line-up. To give this guy more than 3 ab’s a game is criminal evn with the grit that only he has on this team.
Simply ask, would he be an everyday player on any other team in the league. NO
I my even go into Continental Diamond once if LNP didn’t tell me to drive right in. Shouldn’t it be “Dive right in” to the savings.
Steve Lombardozzi…. wow, don’t hear that name much.
Gardenhire has stuck with Gomez through his struggles
Because up until Span decided to stop sucking (aka his second callup this season) there wasn’t another CF option for the Twins.
And why is Gomez still in the lineup when Span is here? That’s because Cuddyer’s hurt and there’s no better alternative to Span in RF so he can be moved over to CF.
Young/Span/Kubel is not a better OF than Young/Gomez/Span.
On the other hand, there was an alternative to Harris. His name was Punto.
Justin,
Yeah, kind of a scary past blast on Lombo. As for the age thing, let’s call Harris a “young 28.”
Winger,
It’s been fun disagreeing with you. Come back soon.
Bobby,
And bat Gomez 10th?
Tonytec,
Each argument IS different. Duh.
Sun Times reported Konerko may be back Friday.
I’ve had s strained MCL a couple times, as long as that is the only injury that is accurate. It freaks you out when it happens, as Konerko described, but it isn’t very serious.
Just read on WhiteSox.com that he could be back as soon as he is ready to be back, days or a week… whenever he feels ready to play again. And I would assume since he’s the the “speedy outfielder” type, it could be sooner than we think.
yes, what Logan said. Friday may be early, but who knows… depends on how he’s feeling.
**my post should have stated “since he’s NOT the “speedy….”
anyways…
Konerko should be back soon. His injury won’t impede him from running much more than his ability already does.
“Sun Times reported Konerko may be back Friday.”
Thanks for the useful info, Logan. Just saw footage of Konerko’s play, and it didn’t look THAT bad to me. But of course he swings off his right leg.
And of course they’re still without Crede, and probably Quentin for the year.
“To his credit and the Twins benefit, Roy (Smalley) found other ways to contribute.”
One of his contributions was getting a big hit in the 87 World Series, that the official scorer incorrectly ruled an error.
MarkW, I just thought you were being sarcastic.
Jim C. I think our forefathers were such visionaries that they could see the scandal involving steroids coming and wanted to make sure Bonds and McGwire had the right to grow big hairy arms. Somehow that right has been misinterpreted. Damn fancy pants Harvard lawyers.
The only love child is Boof Bonser-he has allowed runs in almost every appearance he has made and it is remarkable that he has not been released.
What do you think?
Great blog Howard!
1. Punto is “our” best SS. No doubt. No debate.
2. Gomez is the best def OF in the majors and in a couple of years will be the best OF in the majors period. (I would say you heard it here first, but I’ve said it before). I project these 2010 numbers for Gomez: 23 HRs, .310 BA, 70 SBs, and < 60 Ks. All star selection; gold glove winner; batting 3rd in the winning World Series Twins lineup. At that time, we won’t be willing to trade Gomez for Granderson, Hunter, Elfsbury, Vlad, or any other OF.
Who’s got my kool aid. I just ran out. Later guys.
alan,
Boof has the fastball velocity and bite on his breaking ball to become a good pitcher.
Some pitchers with better stats have no chance to ever become anything.
Sometimes you have to bet on potential, probably as the Twins should have done with Grant Balfour.
Punto, while maybe a little short on MLB talent gives the Twins everything he has each and every night.
It’s time to pull for him and all the Twins the last 18 games. As mentioned, who thought they would be one game out in ‘08 on Sept 10. Let’s get behind our Twins……
Leave Punto alone! The man plays his arse off. Granted his plate numbers are not great, but the plays he has made in the field have saved more than a run or two. BOOF BONSER….Get rid of this sally! Everytime he comes in I change the channel. I cannot bear to watch.
Carlos,
I too am a Gomez guy and i like the optimism.
I think the 70 SBs and 23 HRs could be doable. But i bet he’ll always be a pretty high SO guy.
“IN FACT:
The rankings for AL starters the last 30 days in ERA:
Liriano 1st
Slowey- 9th
Baker - 16th
Perkins 19th
Blackie 26th
Presumably, there are about 60-70 starters in the rankings. And 30 days pretty much represents 5-6 starts per pitcher — a sufficient statistical amount.”
Sufficient for what? With the exception of the Tiggers, the Twins have played most of their recent games against teams that are below average in runs scored.
ARRRGH
the glass be half empty
Oh i forgot to say that i agree with everything you said Howard but the one thing i would question is Joe’s toughness. I like Joe and think he’s one of the best cathchers in baseball but two thing bother me. 1) For as bug a guy as he is i’ve never see him try to block home plate. 2) When there are plays at the plate he seems to miss a lot of the throws. Granted some of those are bad throws but it just seems to me like he might be scared of the collision.
I’m totally agreeing with Sane on Boof.
If Boof could locate his fastball he could be a dominant pitcher, in my opinion.
I hope he finds a coach who can realize his potential. Not ripping on anyone there, it just hasn’t seemed to work out in MN for Boof.
lol, Shawn. If you were talking to me, I wasn’t suggesting that the Twins pitchers aren’t good, I was taking issue with the comment that the sample size was significant to prove anything. If you look at the numbers for the entire season, they do show that the Twins starting five have been very good.
BC,
The blocking-the-plate discussion is interesting. Catchers don’t seem to do it anymore — not just Mauer. To a man, they seem to set up in front of the plate and then make a sweep tag. Anyone else want to weigh in?
“The blocking-the-plate discussion is interesting. Catchers don’t seem to do it anymore — not just Mauer. To a man, they seem to set up in front of the plate and then make a sweep tag.”
Is the POSSIBILITY of preventing ONE RUN, more important than the POSSIBILITY of missing games because of injury?
I don’t think so, especially for a key offensive and defensive player like Mauer.
If the pitcher throws strikeouts and popups, then nobody scores and nobody gets injured.
Now, here comes the old schoolers with their war stories.
That was the opinion of an ex-catcher who was once knocked out of his shin guards in a home plate collision.
Whose story is next?
BC/Howard, I think perception is exactly what it is, “one’s own interpretation of an event”… you can’t really question the manliness of Joe Mauer can you? No more than I can question yours, right? I think his first job as a catcher is to manage his pitching staff (he does this very well) and also to know the opposing teams hitters and their tendencies… Next, throw out runners, dont have time to check, but he’s been pretty good at that too, and lastly, block balls in the dirt or anything to keep the ball in front of him. Plays at the plate dont happen very often and when they do, so many things have to happen to have that perfect, catch, block and tag, that it’s quite impossible to say he is “scared” or “afraid” of contact… my opinion for now…
I’m with the old schoolers on this…show you care and block that sucker…
No, I don’t believe Mauer makes the play that Red Dog did against Seattle a couple weeks ago.
“…most of their recent games against teams that are below average in runs scored.”
I hear ya, but….
7 total vs. the Angel and Yanks (contenders). 6 total vs. a hot Seattle. 3 vs. the Jays (who don’t consider THEIR season quite over and who scored 21 runs against the swept Twins).
And the Twins went 14-13 the last 30 days, so SOMEone was scoring runs off Twins pitching….but not so much off the starters, is the point.
So, 10 out of 27 games vs. contenders (Jays are 7 out), and therefrom and additionally most importantly of all, it’s pennant-race crunch-time baby!
The young Twins starters are coming THROUGH!
i was always taught to block the plate and you still see veteran catchers do that. just a few weeks ago i-rod got run into in a game and had to come out. imo it has been a recent trend probably by coaches/gm’s not wanting to get a valuable player hurt. players are paid so much now front offices are trying to protect the investment. the 100 pitch count comes from the same idea of protecting the investment imo.
blocking the plate would be considered getting after it and battling your tail off so it’s funny that gardy wouldn’t stress that.
“I’m with the old schoolers on this…show you care and block that sucker…”
Yeah, “knock yourself out” Torri….see ya next year.
“Knock yourself out” Joe M……see ya next year.
MarkW Your right about all those other responsibilities being first but the majority of the time those rare plays at the plate are game changing plays and if you scared of the contact it might make you miss some throws to the plate as Mauer has this year.
GGG,
“getting after it and battling your tail off” applies to average MLB players like Punto, who can be replaced and upgraded if injured.
It doesn’t apply to players like M&M whose health is crucial to Gardy’s future employment outlook.
If the throw is in the line, he’ll get it. But I think it’s smart to not stand in front of the plate if the ball isn’t there. I prefer he stay in the lineup because I know full-well that if he did take a hit and ended up on the Disabled List, people would be talking about how he is ‘injury prone’ or ‘can’t stay healthy.’
Torii
BC,
“plays at the plate are game changing plays”
Measure GAME changing plays against SEASON changing injuries.
“Measure GAME changing plays against SEASON changing injuries”
GREAT POINT!
I’m not sure what throws he has missed… it’s hard to calculate what throws he should have got to while still trying to save a run and other balls where he’s gotten to but they’ve pulled him away from home plate? Definitely something you’d have to have film to be able to prove whether he’s shying away from contact or not. IMO, I dont believe he’s afraid of someone running into him as I’ve seen it happen and I think the media has played a large part in getting it into people’s heads that he’s not as tough as he should be given his size. (as opposed to Redmond being dubbed the “gritty, do all, backup catcher”) The fact remains that he’s an elite catcher and one of the best in the league as the numbers are there to back that up.
SethSpeaks says:
September 10th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
“Measure GAME changing plays against SEASON changing injuries”
GREAT POINT!
Exactly, which makes him a SMART player too.
my guess is that if morneau was catching he’d block the plate. hockey player mentality!
sane with the punto love fest today i’m shocked you’d call him an average mlb player, but you are right he does get after it.
Sane i’m a little surprised by your take because that just reinforces the arguement from others that maybe he shouldn’t be playing catcher. I’m not trying to rip Joe by any means but that’s the only part of his toughness i question. He is wearing protective gear right?
Whats Tolbert’s ZR at 3B?
Gomez is the worst hitter we have in our lineup. Howard has not mentioned Gomez in 2 months, the twins gain a 1 and half on the sox and Gomez makes a running catch and he is the greatest CF in the game or will be. Just like 3 Jack Young, get real Howard.
“my guess is that if morneau was catching he’d block the plate. hockey player mentality!”
Did Morneau play Football? Hockey players are a whole different breed. Did Redmond play hockey?
Howard,
You seem to be really stretching to make LNP a fan favorite which he will never be. Nor will he be a better SS than Harris if you look at all the stats. How about Win Shares, a Bill James creation that probably is the best way to measure the total worth of a player. BTW, Mourneau leads all players in AL and Mauer is third,but back to LNP and Harris.
Stats through 9/7/08 on The Hardball Times shows Harris is 9th in the AL and Punto is 13th. Harris is also above Bartlett….
for those of you young guns, ray fosse a very good young catcher at the time was run over by pete rose in the 1970 all star game and really was never the same again. many people thought that rose was way over board running into him in an all star game, but pete would get after it and battle his tail off no matter the game.
Gomez has a .251 avg and strikes out every 3.97 times he bats. We have 9 players who’s avg is as high or higher than Gomez’ OBP. What did you clear up Howard?
Gobble… I think you made the point…
can’t answer that seth but i played hockey and also blocked the plate getting run over a few times, however i can’t bend over any more because of a bad back so .. i didn’t say it was the smartest thing to do.
I’m just saying that the Fosse instance is one that says using your brain a little bit when deciding whether to block the plate or not makes a lot of sense. Mike Matheny was not available for comment.
sorry saam,
i was being a schmidt
Mike in Bismarck,
I’m not stretching and I don’t think Punto should be a fan favorite — and that’s probably obvious to people who read the original post. To review:
1) He’s the best option right now.
2) He’s better than Harris
3) The people who chew on Punto incessantly don’t have the numbers to back it up based on his ‘08 statistics.
4) Some of them are flat out irrational in their contempt.
I like Stats2.0 as much as many other people, but I recognize the difference between liking advanced baseball stats and forcing them down the throats of readers to a general interest baseball blog.
This will never be a blog about Win Shares or debating the virtue of Zone Rating v. Revised Zone Rating. We can have that discussion over beers, or you can find it somewhere else on the web.
Jason,
I remember the play you’re talking about — and I found the video. RedDawg caught the ball just in front of the plate and turns to make the tag. An excellent play, but not a plate-blocker in the classic sense.
I’ll take Gomez’s range in the outfield any day. A lot of 22-year-olds have poor offensive numbers their first year, his speed and defense aren’t going to slump. He misplayed a few rockets off Vlad’s bat in LA, but I want Gomez and Span tracking down balls in the outfield.
As for the ongoing Punto debate, it may be true that Harris isn’t a vast improvement over him, but Punto’s just cracking in every pressure spot he’s been in lately. It doesn’t show up in many stats, but his average with RISP is down almost 40 points over the past month, during which he has 4 RBI. He’s batting .204 with two strikes on him this year, and he’s made two extremely crucial late-inning errors at shortstop.
I just find it odd that Gardenhire is one to give just about everyone a day off here and there. He’s done it with Young, Gomez, Casilla, Kubel, Buscher… and yet Punto is out there all the time.
I also find it strange that he made a point of saying that the explosion Span had in LA “wasn’t the Twins way” and that he talked to him about it, but Punto continues to toss his helmet and hit it with his bat after he Ks, or throw the helmet, or stare at the ump in disbelief after being called out.
I frequently clamor about Harris, but it’s not because he’s not starting every day. It’s because that even in spite of Punto’s late-game struggles, or Buscher’s slump (until last night), Brendan Harris still has just two at-bats in all of September.
Either way, the Twins are a game out of first place, the former AL MVP lock (Carlos Quentin) is down for the count… Konerko’s a spectator now as well, right next to Twin-killer Joe Crede. Brian Anderson and Juan Uribe now have to be in their lineup every day. Clayton Richard is pitching every fifth game for the Sox.
Who’s situation do you like better? Let’s sweep the Royals, try to split or come out a game ahead on the road, and then bring on the Sox at the Dome… you think they want any part of us at home with the season on the line?
Here’s how I see the Punto debate. Until there is a viable option, Punto might as well be the SS. He has been in a pennant race. His defense will more often than not cover up any offensive struggles. His offensive numbers, if they stay where they are, aren’t that bad for a number 8 hitter. I would be OK with that. I like his range at SS, and his ability to make the routine play.
I am by no means a stat guy. I am willing to throw stats out the window when talking Harris vs. Punto. (by the way I was a huge Harris supporter most of the year). However, in discussions with baseball minds, they say that Harris does things that would get him benched on a HS team. He just isn’t defensive minded and on a Twins team, that won’t cut it. Look at Justin. He came up as an offense only player. He learned to play defense with the best of them, and now he is an MVP caliber player. He has the whole package. He learned that because he knew he needed it to survive in Minnesota. It’s those intangibles that go way beyond stats that I like to look at.
I’m swallowing hard the fact Punto is our starting SS, but for Gardy to ever bat Punto second is unfathomable. You know Gardy is chomping at the bit to bat him there.
Also, all the stats in the world tell me nothing, because all I need to see is the difference between Harris’s swing and Punto’s swing. The ball jumps off of Harris’s bat. The ball flutters off of Punto’s.
And Punto does crack under pressure. Game #2 of the 2006 ALDS, bottom of the 8th, 1 on and nobody out, Punto couldn’t get the bunt down. We don’t score, the A’s score in the 9th, Twins get swept. That seems to happen alot with Punto.
Okay, I am retiring from Punto vs. Harris for the second time today.
Baker is scheduled against all remaining Twins opponents after tomorrow except Tampa Bay. Big exception.
Slowey and Liriano scheduled against all remaining opponents from here on out except Chicago and Baltimore. Big exception with Chicago there.
[So, Slowey and Liriano will face Tampa and Cleveland on the road. (good)
And Baker/Perkins/Blackburn vs. Chicago. (not so good)
But, the last three games of the season vs. Kansas City — Slowey/Liriano/Baker. (very excellent)]
The Twins could have skipped and eliminated Blackburn’s turn yesterday because of the off day, and then skipped Perkins on the 22nd in the same fashion.
These two would have been available for BP use. And the starters for the Chicago series would have been Blackburn/Slowey/Liriano. So, Lirano would have been better than Perkins vs. Chicago.
And the starters vs Tampa would have been Blackburn/Slowey/Liriano/Baker (whereas now it’s Perkins/Blackburn/Slowey/Liriano). So Baker would have been better than Perkins vs. Tampa.
The starters then for the end of the season vs KC would have been Baker/Perkins/Blackburn. Weaker than now scheduled, but it’s only KC.
Slowey, Liriano, and Baker would have been in line to start the first three games of the playoffs.
Now it looks like Perkins and Blackburn leading off the post.
Thanks for thinking ahead Gardy/Andy. And don’t give me that crap about Perkins and Blackburn becoming too strong for their starts or getting screwed up because of extra days’ rest. They could have given them adequate BP sessions on the 9th and 23rd — if they weren’t used out of the BP — to keep their timing and tire them down a bit.
So, the option taken was for a weaker BP, weaker pitching vs. Tampa and Chicago, and their two weakest pitchers out of the 5-core to start the post-season.
The only way to remedy the situation now is to have Slowey and Liriano pitch 1/3-game-plus apiece tonight and Baker goes tomorrow.
Fat chance.
AJ Pesh says:
September 10th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
Okay, I am retiring from Punto vs. Harris for the second time today.
———————————————
I tried to retire from that a week or so ago. Apparently it keeps getting brought up, which makes it impossible to hide from.
As time goes on, I think techniques are weighed and reconsidered, as well. I’m “old school” on many things (and yes, I remember the Rose/Fosse collision well), but for every text book “blocking the plate as you catch the ball, absorb the collision without getting hurt, AND hang on to the ball” example, I would guess there were 10 examples where that technique resulted in something bad happening to the defensive team (e.g. missed/dropped ball, injured catcher, or both).
You can’t make a tag if you don’t catch the ball. The odds of catching the ball cleanly slightly out in front of the plate have to be much better than trying to catch it in the runners line of attack.
I think most catchers, including Mauer TRY to block the plate with their left foot/leg to prevent the runner from being able to slide directly in to home. But when you’re watching the ball coming in and positioning your foot by “feel”, sometimes it’s not right where you want it to be, especially if you also have to reach a bit for the ball as it arrives.
On a team like the Twins, where the offensive drop off between starting catcher and back up is so dramatic, it would be silly to demand that your starter “man up” and block the plate in every situation. If you’re the back up catcher and you’re mentality is to try to make as much of a contribution whenever you get a shot to perform, maybe it’s a different story.
romer, I really like the analysis. In fact I was hoping someone would research that, cuz I was curious. However, I wouldn’t want them setting the postseason rotation too early. If we clinch at home vs. Chicago, then they can set it up at the end by not letting Baker start the finale. Since they haven’t clinched a postseason birth yet, they should keep trotting out the horses. I think it’s gets dicey and far too presumptive to try any funny business.
Last thing we need to do is upset the baseball gods. Just ask the Mets how that works.
I’d be all for going with a 4-man rotation to the extent possible the last 3 weeks of the season if I could be certain who the best 4 guys are. That seems to be a bit of a moving target lately.
They can still make an adjustment with the off day on the 22nd, right?
It’s a bit of a crapshoot… if you really NEED those games vs KC at the end, you want your best guys throwing. If you don’t need them, you can hold them back for the playoffs and let the Sept call-up arms or Boof take the starts.
People continue to claim that Punto gets constant playing time while Harris is glued to the bench. Well Harris has played in 116 games with 399 at bats compared to 81 games and 281 at bats for Punto.
Punto has outperformed Harris defensively, offensively (Punto is even out-slugging “doubles machine” Harris), and has had far less playing time.
And in a season where 2B, 3B, and SS have seen injuries and lots of turnover, your utility guy is bound to play a lot. But it’s still 35 games less than Harris has had.
81 games and 281 at bats for Punto.
Punto’s also had two longish stints on the DL. The number of games in which Punto was a healthy scratch is low relative to Harris.
Yeah, Roto, get it all but over with at least against the oldsox.
Or if that doesn’t become the case, at least we’ll have Slowey/Liriano/Baker for the last 3 games of the season
Yup, got to get to post-season first. Play in conservative. It’s the Twins way….
4 man rotation makes sense:
Liriano
Slowey
Baker
Blackburn
and Perkins helping the pen.
And here is another tidbit about LNP.
On contract years he is batting: .287/.351/.388
On non-contract years he is batting: .225/.298/.318
Punto seems to get hits and makes good plays when the Twins are ahead by 4 runs and it doesn’t matter that much. When the score is tied and the game is on the line Punto usually does not deliver. That is the difference between Punto and Harris in my humble opinion. Is there a statistic for that and if so where can I look it up.
Thanks.
Is there a statistic for that and if so where can I look it up.
yeap. It is called ‘leverage’. In high leverage situations (in decreasing OPS):
Harris is batting .318/.366/.424
Everett is batting .368/.364/.421
Punto is batting .289/.346/.378
Buscher is batting .297/.326/.324
Tolbert is batting .211/.286/.211
I see nothing wrong with Harris at 3B and Everett in SS every day
Thanks thrylos98.
The antipathy towards LNP runs deep and cannot be explained with stats. With every petulant bat flip, the loathing grows deeper.
JimCrikket, actually, I’ve been very consistent on the Young/Garza trade, I was against that particular deal at the time, and neither player has done anything to change my mind yet.
Most of the people on this blog said Garza would be brutal in that band box in Tampa, and he’d barely win a game. I didn’t agree. I am surprised to see his strikeouts are down. I had no idea. That is not good for him, as it was what differentiated him from the 3-5 type starters.
Young was actually not all that great last year, statistically. He’s actually worse this year (proving that another year of play does not guarantee you’ll be better).
That said, I like that Smith dealt from a position of strength in an attempt to get better. I did not love the deal, as Delmon wasn’t actually that good in AAA, and he wasn’t great as a rookie. I am more than willing to admit he’s young, and he could get better, but he really hasn’t now for three years.
The loathing of Punto does not have to be rationaly explained. Illogical though it may be, I don’t like Punto because of his year last year, and nothing he does this year, short of being a world series hero, will change that. Images of his futility at the plate last year, and of Gardy marching him out there day after day, are seared into my memory forever. I don’t have to apologize for my dislike of Punto, nor does anyone else. Were Punto having another horrid year, does anyone really think it would make a difference to Gardenhire? He is blind when it comes to Punto; in Punto he sees the player he could have been, had his career worked out differently.
Howard,
Where is the stat on how many times Punto has been picked off first/caught stealing?
Either everyone is balking or these guys can’t read a pitcher’s move Especially a lefty) to save their soul (or season).
Nothing like a good sac bunt to break things open!
“stealing?
Either everyone is balking or these guys can’t read a pitcher’s move Especially a lefty) to save their soul (or season).”
If you wait to read a LHP’s move, its difficult to steal 2B, because your break will come too late.
Often the runner is breaking on first movement of the LHP’s front foot.
In other words, the Twins are making an “educated” guess that the pitcher is pitching (not picking) on that particular pitch.
If they guess right, the runner steals 2B. If they guess wrong the runner is caught stealing, 1-3-6.
Often its the ONLY way to steal off a LHP.
But given the fact that a balk is almost never called on a lefty anymore you almost have to wait that fraction longer and try to make it up with a bigger lead, walking start (ala Maury Wills) or something else because going on first move has killed them the past month. Otherwise the pitcher just lifts his leg, see’s their running, and whether he intended to or not just goes to first. And it’s not just Punto who got it tonight. All their base stealing threats have been picked during this stretch of lefty’s.
“you almost have to wait that fraction longer and try to make it up with a bigger lead, walking start”
A bigger lead or a walking start will even more likely cause the pitcher to pick rather than pitch.
It is a dilemma that causes some teams to rule out stealing 2B against LHP’s, altogether. The first movement (early) steal must be a surprise in order for it to succeed.
Mike,
Young was putting up ROY numbers last year. Not sure what you’re talking about. Nearly 100 RBI and hovered around .300.
If someone has the means to research the subject, I would like to know how many 21-year-old rookies have driven in 93+ runs as Delmon did last year at TB.
Personally, I always liked the Garza for Young move and though people have felt that the Twins got the short end of the stick I think the Twins obviously have an abundance of good starting pitching and offense was a big hole for them last year. They went out and got a good, young guy with a lot of potential. Can’t fault them b/c his numbers dropped off a little bit. He’s still probably going to end up with 80 Rbi or so, and he’s only 22 years old. I hope they stick with him b/c there is no reason to think he won’t get better as he puts more time under his belt. As for the Bartlett for Harris aspect, whatever. that was the throw in. Neither of those guys are going to be doing anything amazing. It looks like at this point that the Rays got the better end of that part but who here was a huge Jason Bartlett fan last year? He fit perfectly into the white noise of mediocre left infielders the Twins have been trotting out there in recent years…. punto, harris, bartlett, Gomez, whoever you want to talk about. Nobody is going to be able to tell which of these guys is going to have a modestly standout season all of the sudden. Its guys like this that are the bread and butter of the VORP stat…. they’re responsible for the whole rationale behind the fact that your average mlb player has below average mlb stats b/c there are a handfull of guys out there who are blowing 80% of the rest of the league out of the water and everybody else is just treading water, trying to get by with their one or two tools. At any rate, Delmon has the potential to be one of those really good, outlier types and Bartlett, Harris, Punto, etc are never going to be good enough for anybody to remember 2 years after they’re out of baseball.
Sane,
Precisely! I don’t think the Twins exactly took a flier on Delmon this year. That was a solid offseason pickup, probably one of the best they’ve had in several years. I don’t think anybody can make a credible argument otherwise, statistically speaking with the numbers that were available at the beginning of the season.
Does it factor into your assments that by trading Garza they then went and got Livan to fill the rotation (at a terrible price). And the fact that if you get to the playoffs it’s about having power pitching (as many have stated here before) and you just gave up your most powerful and potentially, biggest upside pitchers?
I was in the camp that liked the deal at the time but the trickle down effect, not to mention concerns now that Delmon may not develop into a 20-30 home run guy with any sense of the strike zone, give me pause.
Just wondering
There are a handful of 22 year olds that fit in recent history, Beltran, Rolen, Grieve, and maybe some others. If you’re strictly talking about RBIs, which seems silly.
The first 21 year old I came up with that had 93+ RBIs is, Jose Canseco with 117, hehe.
Strawberry was ROY at 21 with 74.
Rocco Baldelli had 78, but in 40 less games than D Young.
You could also make a list of 22 year old hitters who hit .280, hit 10 or so homers, walked less than 50 times while striking out over 100 times and driving in 70 or so runs and I’m sure you could come up with a long list of great players, average players, and players you never heard of.
RBI is not a good way to judge Young. Check out his stats in AAA, and also compared to other corner OFers last year. He just wan’t that good. RoY voting is fairly arbitrary. You may recall that many RoY players utterly disappeared shortly thereafter.
I’d have preferred a guy who was in the middle of his career (they have plenty of money), or a guy that had dominated in AAA. My opposition to the trade is pretty mild, as I think Smith did the right thing, just chose a different guy than I would have. It is not a trade that can be ripped as bad, or praised as very good at this point. If they could have gotten over the personality issues, the Rays could use Young in the field, and Price would be starting….
“Young was actually not all that great last year, statistically”
That’s the statement I disagree with.
At 21, Delmon had 93 rbi.
IMO that doesn’t fit under the category of “not all that great statistically”.
If Beltran, Rolen, Grieve” are his benchmarks for 21-yr-old rookies, IMO he had an excellent 21-yr-old rookie season.
Young was certainly tradeable for Garza, who this year has a lower K/IP than Kevin Slowey.(0.7 to 0.76)
RBI are not a good measure. Check his OPS and VORP and other measures. RBI are dependent much more on how many times he comes up with men at bat…
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