More than we had reason to expect
Posted on October 1st, 2008 – 12:56 AMBy Howard
But right now that doesn’t make the way the season ended any less painful.
Watching the Twins get shut down by a pitcher they’d dominated and watching Nick Blackburn pay so dearly for one mistake — one mistake — feels like the wrong way to end this 163-game joy (and pain) ride we’ve taken. Right now, the big picture hasn’t yet settled in, not compared to knowing that the Twins pretty much gave it away with those Friday and Saturday losses to Kansas City while the White Sox were losing to Cleveland. (Yes, there were giveaways scattered throughout the rest of the season, but the same holds true for the White Sox, and the Twins knew what needed to be done in those final games against a losing outfit.)
Really, it was a good year, and in time I’ll be appreciative of all the gifts that Twins baseball brought this season. But it’s hard to look all the way back from the last day of September to the last day of March, when we trudged through the snow to the Dome and told jokes about outdoor baseball as we celebrated that opening night victory against the Angels.
Some people are more resilient. The commenter DCTwinsFan offered this in response to the previous post: “It was a heck of game. It was a heck of a season. The Twins were not an amazing team, but they played some amazing baseball.”
And there’s Mike, who said: “This team gave us everything that they had. I remember sitting in the middle of a snowstorm waiting to get into the game on opening day…wondering what was in store. This team gave me one hell of a ride. No one gave Nick Blackburn a chance tonight, but he pitched his tail off. I love my Twins right now after the loss more than I would have loved them had they won.”
In these hours after, it’s still pretty painful.
It’s painful to know that Justin Morneau pretty much gave away the MVP award because his bat disappeared in the final weeks of the season. I have to take that position because, all along, I’ve said that the closeness of the division races meant that end-of-the-season performance was going to decide things.
And to know that he was one at-bat away; one lousy at-bat on Saturday. What if he had lined a double with the bases loaded and one out instead of grounding into a double play? That would have been another one of those game-changing hits that we bragged on (and properly so) about him for most of the season. That would have been game changing and season changing. It was clear that Morneau was worn down and hurting by September, which I hope serves as a lesson for those people who have been on Joe Mauer whenever he’s been taken out of the lineup.
Morneau had an excellent season. So did a bunch of other guys who aren’t the MVP, either.
The Twins were shut out eight times. Five of those were 1-0 games, including Blackburn’s first and last starts of the season. In that first one, against the Angels, his mistake was bouncing a breaking pitch off the plate for a wild pitch with a runner on third. (Scott Baker was the starter in the other three 1-0s — at Cleveland, Boston and Texas.) In the last one, it was the down-the-middle change-up to Jim Thome. I guess if you’re gonna beat, it’s a little easier to take when you get beat by a future Hall of Famer who treats the game the way you like to see it treated. I mean, if the peroxide brat Pierzynski had hit that home run …
John Danks pitched his a$$ off. He was Mark Buehrle with better stuff, and he may be the poster child for not being afraid to bring back a pitcher on three days rest, especially after a short outing. His stuff and whatever jumpiness the Twins brought to the park contributed to some helpless at-bats. It was especially sad to see Mauer reduced to bunting his final time up after striking out the first two times. If the batting champ feels that helpless, it doesn’t bode well for anyone else, right?
This wasn’t an easy team to manage, and I really think that Gardy did the third best job in the American League behind Joe Maddon of the Rays and Mike Scioscia of the Angels. If the Rays are a rock ‘n’ roll fantasy and the Angels are heavy metal, then the Twins were a pick-up band: parts that were pieced together out of necessity and eventually worked together well enough to almost win the talent contest.
I remember thinking, “Oh, great,” when Denard Span misplayed one of the first balls hit to him after Cuddyer got hurt and wondering how desperate the the Twins were to call up Alexi Casilla, who was hitting .217 at Rochester when he got promoted. (And you were too, probably.) And it would have been the easy way out to argue for Carlos Gomez’ demotion, as many people did, instead of trying to harness and re-harness (and re-re-harness) his energy for the team’s good.
But Gardy combined the numbers from his laptop with the knowledge he had from working the clubhouse. There were setbacks and misfires along the way (relying on Guerrier for too long and not finding a way to get Morneau days off, are two examples), but I’ll argue with anyone that the good moves outweighed the bad with a team that could have been managed to a 78-win season. (I’d buy the coffee if Gardy would explain to me why he sent Guerrier back out to pitch the seventh against the Royals on Saturday.)
The challenge for the Twins right now is to know they have to get better. This was a fluky year for the two teams that were supposed to dominate the division (Detroit and Cleveland, remember?) and it would be folly to think that this season’s 8788 victories will automatically translate to 98 simply through experience and individual improvement. There are changes that need to be made.
But that discussion can wait a bit.
For now, it’s best to end with a text I received after the final out from the philosopher Young220: “Fun year!”
Yeah, it hurts. But the kid’s right.
482 Responses to "More than we had reason to expect"
Great blog entry. That about sums it up. This team although they had disappointment to day has a bright future. Things can’t be said for alot of teams in this division full of older players. Twins may not have made it to the playoffs but these players got a big taste of playoff type game the last few weeks.
i think the twins teem should be favored to win the division next year. the tigers are going nowhere and will probably shed salary. the royals will be the royals no matter how they played in september. the indians showed some signs of improvement the second half, but that seems like it was a bunch of players playing with nothign to lose and not facing pressure than anythign else. they have a lot of holes in the bullpen and in the rotation and will need huge bouncebacks from martinez and hafner to contend. the white sox are going to be older, but should still be the top rivals for the twins, and it will be interesting to see what offseason moves they make.
the twins could do absolutely nothing this offseason (though i think that’s unlikely) and still be the top team going into next year. i’m really excited about the rotation, especially liriano in his 2nd year after surgery. the bullpen needs the most help but with the emergence of mijares and hopefully neshek returning to form, that should take care of most of that. i think a couple of trades could be made but i’m not seeing a big acquisition in the works.
Well said, Howard. I feel proud of this team, they have heart. We as fans could not have asked for more for Blackie. They battled all year. There were highs and lows. Shoulda-coulda-woulda. Once again, they were underestimated all year, given up on by their own fans at times. All in all, I saw great things this year and the future for our MN Twins looks bright.
With the M&M boys, our youth and speed, our tremendous range in the outfield, a solid starting rotation, the best closer in the game, and the return of Neshek and the emergence of Mijares, I’m excited for 2009. A pick up to protect Morneau better and some possible BP help would solidify us as a bonafide contender.
I think back to March. I’m in Florida w/my dad during spring training. He says to me, “They look good, but a lot of new faces, a lot of youth. I’m not sure at all about the starting pitching-they might get killed. We have to remember this and be happy if they are a .500 team this season.”
I replied, “My thoughts exactly.”
Proven wrong again! My logic and numbers foiled by the youthful, scrappy team yet again. How can you not love these Twins?
88 victories, howard, not 87. but nothing to sneeze at either way — a wildly entertaining season.
[…] A Fan’s View – […]
Next year’s gonna be awesome…
As foretold in your “Tonight’s first-place high, er, haiku” blog of 9/25.
Lakeseven says:
September 26th, 2008 at 1:15 am
Palehose appear beaten
Reservations with Rays are made?
Royals are waiting!
Our hopes united
Twins Central Champs on Sunday?
But Mon-Tuesday cometh.
Frustration fades quickly
Over-achievers get accolades ’round
Hold chins high.
Prospects look bright
We’ll smile at spring training
Great memories! Goodnight!
Hats off to the Twins-great 2008 season.
A lot of times in baseball 1 game doesn’t make a difference-however for out Twins it certainly did. As Howard pointed out if Morneau had it an RBI double Saturday night vs. KC, the Twins maybe would have won that 1 game-and no one would have been complaining about how MLB decided where tiebreaker games are played (and even the fact they have to play a tiebreaker).
Think about the 5-9 roadtrip. Had the Twins not given away 1 of those games (especially Nathan’s meltdown in Oakland) we wouldn’t be talking about the Twins’ season being over.
I think some underestimated the White Sox after they dropped 2 of 3 against Cleveland. They had all the momentum after winning Sunday and knowing they had the possibly 2 more home games. They weren’t afraod of the Tigers and based on what I heard on Chicago radio down here there weren’t afraid of the Twins at the Cell.
2009 will be interesting. I don’t see the White Sox just going away. Kenny Williams likes to wheel and deal. The Indians played great in the second 1/2- if not for many injuries they really should have taken the AL Central. If the Royals can somehow learn to play the whole season like they did in September, they will be dangerous. Detroit is the one team I would write off in 2009.
As for the Twins-this game shows the need to get some more power. Small ball doesn’t work when you can’t get guys on-but power can change a game with 1 swing of the bat. Morneau needs some helop-and needs some days off so he doesn’t totally fade in September again. Mauer will be fine. Kubel-not sold on him, too streaky. Cuddy will be a bench guy. Gomez and Span will be exciting. Young will hit .300 and with 20+ HRs. Casilla will learn how to stop bunting in the air.
Pitching is easier-I feel much better about the young starters (thank you Blackburn). Bullpen-I wanna see keep Guerrier but use him less. I think Big Sweat will be the odd man out.
Enough rambling-Go Rays and Go Brewers/Cubs!
This team overachieved, and the youngsters surprisingly grew into their roles. I agree with Shaun — we need more than one power hitter (Morneau); maybe this winter the Twins will actually make a deal for one and not at the last minute?
I think the Hot Stove League chatter will be blistering this winter as the regulars here figure out what the Twins need. I look forward to the offseason blogging.
I have to root for the Rays in the playoffs, and because of friends in Milwaukee, the Brewers (despite my wish that the Cubs would win the whole things because I am so tired of hearing about curses!).
Too many conflicting feelings right now to attempt a haiku.
The GOOD:
- Compared to my expectations of this team back on Day 1, they far exceeded those expectations.
- The team far exceeded the predictions of all those talking heads on sports TV.
- This young team provided many exciting moments of energetic, enthusiastic play.
- There were some spectacular defensive plays.
- They played very well, especially Blackie’s pitching, in the most important game of the entire year. For anyone who thinks otherwise, how many Whities scored other than Thome? This was a bona fide playoff game and it all came down to one pitching boo-boo. I for one am much happier that it wasn’t a lopsided blowout nor did the Twins play “young.”
- These youngsters now have some down the stretch run and playoff (yes, even if it’s only one game) experience.
- The rotation has now experienced a full year’s use of those arms and should be in good position next year not to run down in September.
- Mijares and Breslow are valuable new additions to the pen.
- The amazing situational hitting with RISP.
- Growth and development of players right before our eyes.
- Scott Baker seizing the role of Ace.
The BAD:
- I know that for quite awhile, maybe all winter, I’ll see in my mind’s eye all those atrocious defensive mistakes that cost games.
- Ditto for some of the memorable bullpen meltdowns that cost games, including blown saves.
- The unfathomable lack of power.
- DY swinging at first pitches about 95% of the time or more.
- The incredible number of hand injuries of which the corollary is the unforgivable “I want to be like Nick” syndrome when sliding.
- The seeming inconsistency of who rides the pine, who doesn’t and why.
- Coming this close and not closing the deal.
- Liriano’s last start against KC, a major disappointment. Especially not enough visits from Anderson/Mauer or even an early replacement from the bullpen when it was obvious that he was struggling bigtime. Maybe Liriano finally hit a wall also.
- Not bringing Liriano up one game sooner. All we needed was one Liriano win instead of another Livan loss. If his agent’s accusations have any merit, then there is considerable doubt about Twins FO and the stingy owner really wanting to win another WS.
The UGLY:
- Sending Cuddyer. That was a very shallow fly ball and even though he may be a bb senior citizen Griffey didn’t have that long a throw. IMHO only Gomez, Span, and Casilla, maybe Tolbert, would have beaten out that throw. Even people way faster than Cuddyer such as Punto and Harris would have been dicey to send. (And yes, I do know it was Harris’ fly ball, we are talking hypothetical here re the running.) I say this even with LNP being the batter on deck. Pinch run Cuddyer? Pinch hit LNP? That’s the problem with no better RH or SH alternatives. Actually Punto had some of the better at bats since he at least wasted a lot of Danks’ pitches by fouling them off. Lastly if Cuddyer is going to be sent, the least he can do is knock that so and so to the moon! (LOL)
- Deciding home field advantage via coin toss rather than head to head record. This is not being a homer, all the commentators on various ESPN shows said the same thing.
- A game not even involving the Twins. Whities vs. Rays, won by Whities in extra innings due to Rays catcher dropping a perfect throw home, Upton dogging a fly ball catch and throw that allowed Billy Idol II to advance and then of course Billy getting that ridiculous interference call (guess his stint as a pro wrestler helped with that dive and ooh, ooh ump he touched me act). The Rays and, if the Whities advance, winner of Angels/Sox had better hope Doug Eddings is not part of the umpire crew for their games. He’s now 2 for 2 in Billy’s favor on controversial calls. The Angels haven’t forgotten I’m sure. Now maybe the outcome of the Rays-Whities game in August would have still been the same, who knows, but for sure we know the Whities won because of all those things above.
the coin flip complaining needs to stop!
The Twins were done in by a slumping offense and a terrible bullpen down the stretch, if this team had taken care of business 10 times over there is no playoff play-in game ironic that such a powerless team lost on a HR…maybe HRs are a good thing!
Howard:
Thank you for a great post with which to end the season. The disappointment runs deep for everyone, and you captured the feeling of it so well.
It’ll take a few days to let the wonderment of what they accomplished really settle in. Who in their wildest dreams expected all of this back in March?
I hope most of the posters here will continue as we roll into the offseason. As I think you are saying, Howard, the front office cannot expect improvement simply based on the young players maturing and gaining experience. This team as it is presently constituted may be at a plateau. There will need to be additions, and additions by subtraction, to raise the talent level in all areas. So the offseason will be great fun. But it will be great fun because they’ve given us all a lot of hope for the future.
Thanks for all the great posts this year everyone. Hope to hear from you all in November!
No, FIRE, the coin flip was the single most deciding factor of the division title. We got screwed. We were in first place on the final day of the season. Chicago tied US! We were the first place team. First tie breaker is always head to head competition. Advantage=Minnesota. I can’t believe the home field advantage should ever go to the second place team.
Coin flips decide who gets the wind, not championships.
Howard: Thank you for yet another excellent post. And, thank you to the Twins for making this exciting right down to the end. I am choosing to look at this like the ultimate learning experience for the young guys. Hopefully, the bitter taste of losing the pennant remains with them and motivates them next September.
Fire, it’s not just Twins fans. You know ESPN is not full of Twins fans among their commentators/analysts. THEY also said it was ridiculous that the coin toss was used rather than head to head record. When it comes to two teams specifically built for their respective home stadiums, and when both stadiums work against the prevailing style of play of the visitors (although less so for the Whities, the Dome is always characterized as park friendly to HR’s, but all that real grass sure doesn’t do much for the Twins) then how the venue site is determined is a BIG DEAL.
I agree totally that Twins needed to take care of business on their own watch. But with neither team doing so, the reality was the one game playoff and the reality is that a coin toss unfairly negates the head to head record which is the basis used in other sports. About as fair as sending the Astros to Wrigley North to play the hurricane games. For that matter as fair as sending the Astros whose families/homes were in peril to play at all anywhere.
And yes, HR’s are good especially in tight playoff games.
MudCat will all due respect.. Twin’s choked the division away by blowing 8 games after leading in the 7th inning or later since early August..
everyone knew the rules for deciding this play-in game they are not new, the rules have been in place for decades.. and besides the Twin’s road problems have all been pitching, that wasn’t the problem last night.. bottom line Twin’s had more then a dozen chances to clinch the division much earlier they choked.. hopefully this young team will have gained experience that will bode well for next year
Right, Beisbol. The strike out in the first game counts the same as the strike out in the last game in the standings. The tiebreaker (and the playoffs) is a new season and everyone starts 0-0. Nobody recommends dispensing with the season and just flipping a coin to determine the winner. This toin coss and the Astros “neutral” site game were two big blunders in baseball this year.
I meant “coin toss”.
(Still a little upset LOL!)
Howard: nice post.
I’m glad you didn’t talk about coin flips and A.J. showing the ball to Cuddy and instead put the season in its proper perspective.
Gardy, for the most part, deserves a lot of credit. He’s a very good manager. He does it his way, but his way usually provides 6 months of exciting baseball…more that can be said for most teams.
There are two elephants in the room that no one seems to be addressing, and they are related (I listened to about an hour’s worth of Twins discussion on various radio stations this morning and it seemed to slip under the radar too):
1. An all or nothing game, and this Twins team, which has scored the most amount of runs since 1992, came up empty. 0 runs and 2 hits.
2. Mauer and Morneau, the faces of the franchise, were a combined 0-for-6.
Other than that, last night’s game was a classic…if you didn’t have goose bumps from about 5:45 last night until the final out, well, you’re not a Twins fan. Even in defeat, I’m glad we had our moment in the spotlight, and for the most part, we embraced it. We looked like we belonged.
So we can debate if Cuddy crashed into A.J. hard enough, if A.J.’s move at the end was cheap (as Gardy hinted) or merely securing the out in front of Tim McClellan….we can debate the impact of the coin flip (I have no issue with this) or the Mauer bunt or the fact that the visiting team had one player in its starting lineup with double-digit homeruns…and I look forward to these discussions, but Howard’s right, in the end, it was a fun year and that should be celebrated.
Just for fun, Twins management should buy a 2008 AL Central Champs pennant and hang it up when the Black Sox come to play next year just to tick them off!
Oh my word, just scrolled up…
Enough of the coin toss discussion, folks. Enough. Let’s not be that guy / gal today.
We lost. We lost fair and square. Did a coin toss cause Mauer and Morneau to go 0-for-6?
Howard, you and I, on one single episode, excoriated the Twins for not making the effort for post-season this year.
Your episode was to call out the FO when it came time to “waste” money on re-signing Santana. The writing was on the wall after he left. No real expectation of an excellent season remained after he left.
My episode was the failure to “waste” personnel and money in acquiring Beltre. We could have won the WS with him.
The purported lack of $$$ is the reason for the Twins’ current grabbing of the pine.
It’s not Gardy and his coaches, nor the players.
And thus it remains. Good season or not. Fun season or not.
7 days after the WS, we’ll begin to see if it’s to be forever thus.
Look what happens when you play small ball in the Majors…that type of play make work at the Metrodump because the infield is so fast and hard hit balls make it through.
However when you play on grass all those ground balls turn into routine outs.
Not to mention Mourneau and sideburn boy Mauer not showing up for the last 15 games!
GO BREWERS!
thanks howard. I always enjoy reading you. thanks for doing such a fantastic job. Best wishes. Thanks for the memories, boys!
One starter with double digit homers.
I was surprised with Cuddy at DH, but I said pinch run immediately if he gets a hit. I wanted to see Randy Ruiz on third drilling AJ.
Hey Brewers,
Once I stop laughing here I’ll be able to type…
Small ball has won us 8 division titles, 3 American League pennants, and 2 World Championships…
Whatcha got over there east of the river? Wild Card?
Now there’s a late-season woodpecker pecking away outside my window. God’s little analogy joke re the Twins FO?
Lotsa luck…….
cheese, they got cheese
why would a brewers fan come in here and crack? I was a little kid their only playoff year, now i am an old bald guy.
It was a fun year. It hurts to lose it this way, but after losing the best pitcher in baseball and a gold glove outfielder who knew that we would even have a shot at it?
The Twins rarely fail to make me proud.
Jason and company stop living in the past! Enjoy watching the Brewers in the postseason LOSERS!
Hey Bernie Brewer, you better enjoy your ride while you can and hope that your boys do it this year. No more CC, no more Sheets. Sveum or maybe someone else all year. We’ll see how good you are after this year.
I was hoping that the blackout, in combination with the d-bag wearing a Georgia Bulldogs cap right behind the Sox bench, would have given some karma to the Twins, but I guess the coin flip evened it out.
So, what does the off season hold? The only major change I see is trading Cuddy. I love the guy, but we don’t need him anymore, and we need to trade him for some relief pitchers or some fat-bat prospects.
Remember, many fans of many other teams would have salivated to be where we were last night.
Hopefully, the sad sting of last night’s loss stays in the hearts and minds of the Twins all year, and they pay it back to the Pale Hose in triplicate next year, and the year after that, and the year after that, and the year after that….
Right Jenny, lost the best pitcher in baseball. I say get him back when he’s available. I have been begging them to sign Jim Thome every time he was available also. What’s the hold up? Gasoline prices?
Jim Thome (unlike AJ) didn’t want to come to Minnesota.
I heard that about Jim. I could see why, he’d have 54 less career homers.
55 now.
Let me add my thanks, Howard, for a great wrap up entry and for providing this medium to share the season with all of the regular… and a few irregular (you know who you are) commenters. Despite how it ended, it’s been a blast.
As for last night’s game, I’m not sure what more you can do than tip your hats to Danks, Thome, Griffey, and (swallowing hard) AJ. Danks was terrific (and just barely more terrific than Blackburn, who earned my respect by coming up huge on the biggest stage of the year).
I disagree with comments that Cuddyer should not have been sent on the Harris fly. You HAVE to send him in that situation. Scoreless game, getting late in the game, pitcher not looking like he’s going to give up many baserunners… it took an on-target throw to get Cuddyer and Cuddy took a good shot at knocking the ball out of AJ’s mitt.
That Spring Training t-shirt Cuddy distributed said it all… 162+ No Excuses. Let’s remember the “no excuses” part.
This is a young team that, with some offseason help from their GM, will be poised for a good run in 2009 and beyond. The kids on this team gained valuable experience with the way this season ended. They’ll be prepared to face pressure well next season and, as a life lesson, they (and their Manager) learned that every… single… game… matters.
I’m ready for Spring Training to start right now!
Well said, Crikket, re: no excuses.
Sending Cuddy was a no-brainer; his double also vindicated his manager, in my opinion, for going with his guy and starting him…I disagreed with that move, but Gardy’s right more than he is wrong.
Beisbol-a-GO-GO the Brewers may lose Sheets and possibly CC but Fielder, Gallardo, Suppan, Hardy, Hart and the rest of the team will be intact.
Brewers will be good for quite some time as the owner is willing to spend money.
Just an FYI the Metrodump was rated second form last as a venue for sports…just like ALL Minnesota sports teams they suck!
Crickett:
That’s my point also. Every…single….game…..matters.
No flippin’ coin toss! ! !
HAHA Crikket, maybe the magician Cuddyer isn’t clairvoyant also. His shirt shoulda said 163+.
What is second “form” last? Some kind of concrete mold? Something to make shoes from? I’m mixed up.
Butt romer that is called a typo!
One thing I know. TB will not be afraid of the White Sox. Rays have played much better then anyone in the central. TB in 3.
After having my out-laws call me last week to brag about the sweep, I felt so good to let them know how sweet the revenge is. When the dome season ends the Twins chance of victory goes with it. Get used to it Twins fans, history will be made in Chicago, hopefully on the south side.
Go Sox!
That wasn’t me at 8:46 and 8:48. The hacker is at work again, Howard.
Ignore the troll, gang. He can’t help being an asshole. It’s the way he was raised.
As for the coin toss… it’s not ideal. But it’s not like MLB made that rule up just to screw the Twins… and if you don’t want it to screw you, there’s an easy way to prevent that from happening. Win one more game.
I also would point out that I am happy for the White Sox. I sincerely believe they will beat the Rays…no real insight there, just a hunch.
The Whities are a team to be scared of in the post season for the simple fact that they are loaded with veterans (as Ozzie said last week in Minnesota–”I only have one kid out there”). No doubt they should be viewed as underdogs against the Rays and they are not at full strength without Crede and Quentin, but for some reason I think they’ll pull it off.
Why did Punto hit in the 8th? Isn’t that a better spot to pinch hit Kubel? Punto was 1-12 against Danks, there is a runner on, only one out and Danks is tiring. Why save Kubel for the 9th?
I’m out o’ here.
Isn’t there anyone at the U/M who can fix your blog problem, Howard?
romer, good to hear that. If I hear the phrase “coin toss” one more time, I think I’ll throw up.
As I said earlier, we lost fair and square.
Think of it this way–what happens if we play that game in the Metrodome and win on a ball lost in the lights? Then we have a real issue.
JimmnyCricket a troll that’s funny what fantasy land are you living in? Is Cinderella nearby, or how about Peter Pan?
Just wish it wasn’t against the Sox and AJ. I hate the Sox so bad. The Rays better take it to them.
It was a good season but it sucks bad. Minnesota Pro-Sports and the Iowa State Cyclones (graduate) are my teams. And they all suck, except for the Twins but they just miss it by inches in the playoffs or with this game everyear. Killing me.
On a side note it’s pathetic to hear from a Brewers fan on here. They made the playoffs for the first time since 83! and will probably lose in the 1st rd like the Sox. We beat the Brewers in the overall series this year and they suck. Just an FYI the Twins have won 2 World Series in the time it took the Brewers JUST to get a playoff spot without winning their division. The Brewers and their fans are what we call a joke. Without C.C. and Sheets next year we can except never to hear from them again.
To the Brewers troll. Took 26 years for the Brewers to get back in the playoffs. You have no reason to troll here. You look like a fool.
Howard, you basically summed up my thoughts. Last night was a excruciating game to watch. Blackburn pitched a heck of a game, and I cannot blame him for one bad pitch. Mijares looks like the 8th inning answer. Just think if we had him at this level all year. The Twins may have won a few that they threw away.
Overall, though, this was as good a year to follow as the last 7. The ups and downs, and peaks and valleys were tremendous. I think I nearly gave up on this team about 15 times. They just kept fighting. The fight is one reason why I contend that Gardy is one of the best managers in the game.
I want to say that 95 wins is a strong possiblility next year, but the bullpen needs to get figured out and the left side of the infield needs to get figured out. Other than that, I’m pretty confident in the future.
I would agree Roch.
No one seems to want to acknowledge 0-for-6 by M&M either…
Oh well, Dick Bremer is happy today. That batting title he’s been reminding us about everyday since June is finally realized.
Right, Jason. You’ve got to respect the White Sox and fear that lineup. I mean the skinny little rookie infielder has FOUR grand slams! What is he anorexic or something. Get the kid some juice.
And why would Brewers and Sox fans post here after their games?
The Brewers last made the series the year i watched baseball when i was 9. Now I’m 35 and they are already back. WOW! Time just flies when you are a dominant baseball team.
Twins did not lose fair and square. What did White Sox do to deserve that game being on their home turf? Absolutely nothing! They played no better then the Twins down the stretch.
Nora….I’m as a big of Twins diehard as I know…
Reality check for you: We lost. We lost the game, okay. The game is played between the lines (not in the stands) and we lost it. At least we didn’t punt with 2 minutes to go…
The White Sox won, we lost. Like Cuddy said, no excuses.
So much to be said, so I’ll try to keep this short-
I don’t think anybody expected the game that we got last night. Based upon the comments I read from yesterday, the outing by Blackburn was more than anyone expected, and listing to Chicago radio all day, Danks’ outing was just as surprising. Yes, Mauer and Morneau looked lost, and as if they were pressing, but the location of Danks’ pitches aided in that befuddlement.
As the team moves forward, I would like to see them address the left side of the infield, and shore up the bull pen. I think the starting rotation is set for years to come, and the young depth on this team is enough to have a positive outlook for the long term future.
I have been a life long Cubs fan (and still am), but jumped on the Twins bandwagon in 2001 when this franchise started to turn things around because of the way that bunch played. This year’s edition exemplified why I have rooted for the Twins since then, and I look forward to watching this team excell in the future.
Jason, I really don’t see the Whities as any kind of playoff threat. Rays should take them out in no more than 4 games.
I think the BitchSox, Brewer and Dodger seasons are about to come to abrupt ends. Won’t be surprised to see them all swept in 3 games. ECBS and Angels series should be great though.
I’m pulling for the Rays and anyone who plays the Cubs.
Bernie, you will get absolutely no argument from most Twins fans about our stingy owner, so you’re totally wasting your venom ranting about him. We’d gladly join your chorus there.
But you are way off base as far as being quite good for some time because your owner is willing to spend money. There is absolutely no way you are keeping CC. Unless your owner is so willing to spend money that he wants to compete with Yanks, RSox, Dodgers, Angels, maybe even both Chicago teams. Now we ARE talking megabucks, that’s assuming his arm doesn’t fall off during the playoffs.
Your best position players are still serfs. They are very good but don’t tell me your owner spent money on them, you are reaping the rewards of years of getting good draft picks like the Rays. Good move giving Braun a big and long contract but Twins have done the same with Morneau.
The biggest chunk of your team’s payroll is with the pitchers including (cough, cough) Gagne at $10mil. Without CC that rotation and pen wouldn’t have gotten you into the playoffs at all.
If you want to be an obnoxious troll you should, if you haven’t already done so, go to the Tribe’s blogs. If they hadn’t traded CC, it might have been a three way race after all in the AL Central. They didn’t end that far behind.
Like I said Crikkiet, the Sox are underdogs for sure, but you have to admit they have a winning mentality.
If you count Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday (all essentially playoff games for Chicago), Ozzie’s postseason record is unbelievable.
Again, this is more of a hunch than anything, because I agree talent-wise and numbers-wise, the Rays have been the better team this year. I just truly believed that whoever won last night’s game would upend Tampa, a team that has already far exceeded anyone’s wildest expectations this year.
They would not have lost at the metrodome. That is m y problem with it. That coinflip that the Twins get penalized for even though the Twins won the season series. Not an excuse, it is a fact. Nothing you could say will dissuade me from that.
Jason, you gotta understand, this Twin team effin’ near killed themselves taking first place in the division. They were in first place at the end of the regular season. Chicago tied US! That’s all anybody is saying. We got screwed.
Nora Twins lost essentially playoff games last Friday and Saturday against the Royals at the METRODOME! stop with the whining!!! Twins lost fair and square GET OVER IT!
Folks,
Go easy on Brewers fans. They’re a little desperate after all these years. I mean, check this one out from the Cheesehead file.
Best playoff game that I’ve ever seen, made all the more sweeter by the fact that the losing team was the Twins. The only thing that would have made it better would be if AJ had hit the winning home run.
Stop whining about coin tosses and having to play on grass. Outdoors. In the cold. With some wind.
Just beat the KC Royals for God’s sake.
Next time, celebrate after you win the division, not before.
Was Gardy really complaining about AJ showing the ball to Cuddyer? Oh please, spare me. This coming from the same team whose CF (Gomez)thumps his chest after he makes a play, or from LNP sliding head first into home plate when he could have walked in. The taunting goes both ways.
9 times out of 10 Cuddyer probably scores. He gave it his best Tori Hunter crash into home plate, but this time the catcher was AJ, not some third string catcher. It takes a perfect throw, a perfect catch, and God only knows how AJ hung onto that ball. The ghost of Jamie Burke has been put to rest.
There was nothing “dirty” about what AJ did. To me it looked like AJ was going for the tag after the play, in case Cuddy had not touched home (he did, but AJ couldn’t have seen that)
As he went to tag, the ump saw the ball in his glove, which was what he needed to verify that AJ had made the play.
Hey Fire, Didn’t the Sox lose to Cleveland those 2 games also? And didn’t the Royals have the best September record in all of baseball? Give it a rest. Sox played no better down the stretch then the Twins.
Regarding home field adavntages in the regular season and otherwise. Everyone has one. I think they all try to build a park and team that work together. I think we can expect the groundskeepers at Target Field to make the infield hard and fast. They’ll roll it hard with a big nasty steam roller before every game. The grass will be short, almost like artificial turf.
Good one, Howard, and appropo. It’s all but certain the Brewers are going to wet themselves in the playoffs (unless they can figure a way for Capt. Cheeseburger to pitch every game).
Excuse me, Mudcat? Ah, go back and look. At no point this year did the Twins hold the division lead for more than 48 hours (even last Fri. night, lost it, regained it, Sat. lost it, regained it). They had several opportunities and never took control.
Oh my the excuses are giving me a headache. How do you know we win that game at the Metrodome? Is there a force field that causes John Danks metaphysical difficulty there?
Look, I understand the numbers show what a huge home field advantage the Dome is, but guess what, not every game is played at home. The Twins are equally as awful on the road and at some point you have to be accountable for that, too.
I can understand why this is tough for Twins fans to swallow, since they were handed home field advantage in two World Series in an equally arbitrary manner.
I really didn’t want to be having this discussion this morning. The Twins simply didn’t have enough to get it done this year–I know it hurts–but it’s not the fault of a coin flip, okay.
Nora - get over it the coin toss didnt cost the Twinkies the game!
If sideburn boy Mauer hit’s like the batting champ he is then maybe they win. Morneau stunk the last 15 games as well as several others.
Twins were LUCKY they made it this far…didnt you hear the announcers Twins were close to last in so many categories it wasnt even funny!
Overachievers bottomline be thankful their not playing the Rays they would get swept easily!
Nora you are spinning your wheels - your whining that Twins would have won for sure at the dome is proven to be faulty as Twin’s just lost to KC!! Twin’s have proven they can lose a 1-0 game anywhere anytime.. this team had their chances to win even in “THE CELL” the coin did not screw them.. they screwed themselves by choking down the stretch and getting 2 lousy hits last night..
this year’s team shouldn’t have to apologize for anything - they went where noone could have expected them to go!! again it bodes well for next year, the 2 year rebuilding plan is over!!! AHYEAH!!
Can’t bring myself to write much more than this: great post, Howard. There’s a reason I save your blog for last every day. It illustrates my feelings better than I ever could. Great season, Twins. There were so many IFs and Just Abouts and So Closes. Heck of a ride, fellas. Thank you.
Two things:
Thanks to Howard, La Velle and Joe and all the posters on these boards this year (even the ones I disagreed with a lot). I had fun watching the Twins and talking about them here.
It was a great, fun, unexpected season. They really did over-achieve to some degree, and the players and Gardy deserve credit for that.
Here is an interesting article by the Sox beat reporter, Joe Cowley, about last night’s game. I thought that both Twins and Sox fans would find it of interest.
*************************
Cowley:
If there was a cold war going on between the White Sox and Twins players, it’s over.
As for the fans?
”Well, I’m sure Sox fans still hate the Twins,” manager Ozzie Guillen said.
But showing pure class after his team’s 1-0 loss to the Sox in Tuesday’s play-in game, Twins manager Ron Gardenhire waited outside the Sox’ clubhouse for at least five minutes for Guillen to come out so he could congratulate him.
Not that this practice was new, considering Guillen did the same in 2004 when the Twins won it.
Gardenhire kissed Guillen on the cheek as they hugged, and Guillen whispered to him, ”If it would have happened a different way, you know I was coming down there. … You’re my friend.”
Even former Twins catcher — and present-day Twins antagonist — A.J. Pierzynski had nothing but kind words for his former team after the game.
Asked if beating the Twins made winning the division even sweeter, Pierzynski said: ”Everyone knows how much respect I have for that team, how much respect I have for that organization. They’re not going anywhere. But next year is next year. This year is ours.”
As for the hyped feud between Guillen and Twins starter Nick Blackburn, Guillen wouldn’t commend Blackburn for his outing against the Sox last week, but he said the right-hander earned his respect Tuesday night.
”To make this clear, I tip my hat to Mr. Blackburn,” Guillen said. ”He should be proud of what he did. [The Twins] should be proud of what they did.”
As for AJ… yeah we love to hate him, but I had no issue with him showing Cuddyer the ball. A little classless? Maybe… but on the long list of classless AJisms, it’s way down the list. He was excited (and probably a little surprised) to have held on to the ball.
Frankly, while he clearly goes above and beyond what’s appropriate too often, I wouldn’t mind having someone on the Twins with a little bit of AJ’s “in your face” approach to the game in the future. Maybe Gomez is that guy. Anyone that pisses off BitchSox fans as much as he does must be doing something right.
FIRE and Nellie Fox seem to forget that the first game of the season counts the same as the last game of the season in the standings. Can’t really pinpoint one regular season game as the culprit. But you conveniently overlook the importance of being able to have the final at bat in a baseball game. THAT is the biggest advantage of being the home team.
the twins have really lacked a big game player in the gardy era. sox have one and he came up big last night. our big guns the m & m boys have not proven to be “the guy” when it really counts, like playoff time. puckett was that guy, hunter wasn’t that guy and they are hard to find.
i’m not sure either of the m & m boys has that quality, they are both very good players but don’t reach the superstar, put a team on their back type player.
imo we need that one more guy with a big bat, i’d prefer uggla 1st and then beltre. might take blackburn or perkins but i think it is what we have to add for those extra 10 wins we’ll probably need next yr.
we have plenty of pitching depth what we don’t have is a second big time power bat.
(even last Fri. night, lost it, regained it, Sat. lost it, regained it).
See, there you’re just playing games with semantics. Saying the Twins didn’t hold the lead for more than 48 hours simply based on scheduling is riddiculous.
Funny, Mudcat. The White Sox won last night, yet the Twins were the ones who had the final at-bat.
Get over the coin flip already, folks.
Well even if you give them that whole weekend, T, that’s still the only time all year they held the lead for more than 48 hours. The opportunity was there for both teams…Jim Thome hit a long fly, AJ holds on to throw from center, and we lose.
Case closed.
It wasn’t black t-shirts, it wasn’t loud screaming, it wasn’t final at-bats. We lost fair and square.
T:
Didn’t you think Cuddy took it kind of easy on the catcher instead of drilling him because it was AJ? Plus Cuddy is injury prone anyway? And AJ decided not to do an “in your face” spike because it was the Twins?
I think the BitchSox/Twins rivalry is great for the game and great for both organizations. I’d love to have those two teams dominate the Central for years to come. I do think the Twins have a better shot at doing that, given their relative youth, but I won’t discount Williams’ ability to make the changes necessary to keep the Sox competitive, as well.
I think a little healthy disdain between the fans is great. I also think that it’s great that the teams themselves seem to be able to manage to have a competitive dislike for one another, while maintaining some level of respect.
“But you conveniently overlook the importance of being able to have the final at bat in a baseball game. THAT is the biggest advantage of being the home team”
and you conveniently forget Twins had the finally at bat TWICE against the Royals and lost!! GET OVER THE STUPID COIN FLIP!!!
Young220 comment: “Fun year!” could just as easily been a Sox comment if the outcome was reversed (and it easily could have gone the other way). How much closer can it get! We had no expectations to win and like the Twins pieced it together as players with injuries came and went. The “fun” can continue next year. Having the rivalry is what makes it worth the interest.
Nora,
Baseball has to be played at venues other than the metrodome, as much as the Twins would love to play every single game there. Rules are rules…time to move on!
Howard - I’ve lurked here all year without participating, but wanted to let you know that your blog is the best, and I’ve really enjoyed reading your stuff. Needed to get that in before you go “dark” for the winter.
-Alec
It is not a fair rule at all. Again that is my problem with it. What other sport does that. Regular series season means nothing? Ridiculous! That is what 162 games comes down to.
Fire, What happened to the Sox against Clevland that you have conviently forgot? Or at the metrodome when Sox got swept after having a 2 1/2 game lead?
Mudcat, I thought Cuddyer did exactly what he needed to do. AJ caught the throw in fair territory and reached to make the tag. Cuddyer delivered his blow at AJ’s arms and mitt. I think that was his best bet at knocking the ball free. To deliver a straight on body blow to AJ, he would have had to do so well inside the third base line and I’m not sure he even touches home plate after the collision.
As for AJ deciding not to spike the ball… no… AJ doesn’t “think” about things like that. He didn’t make any decisions out there. He’s all about competitive instinct. And that works for him… most of the time.
It’s painful. I hate being a sports fan just for this reason. I had a hard time sleeping last night. The Twins are what they are, which is flawed, but they were better than the Sox. Thome crushed that HR though. A little consolation.
Sox did not play better then the Twins down the stretch. That is all I am saying.
Jeezuz, Nora… give it a bleepin rest!
For 100 years MLB has used a coin flip to determine home field for this kind of game. Did you expect them to say “oh, THIS year that doesn’t seem fair to the Twins, so we’ll use head to head competition instead”?
Give it a rest or at least go get some cheese to eat with your whine.
I did like AJ’s move before the Cuddy collision, where he faked like the ball had gone to the backstop…
I know most Twins fans hate that stuff, but hey, that’s why he’s wearing a World Series ring and we’re reflecting on the season right now.
This was a great year for the Twins considering what they did compared to what they were supposed to do. They are young and have alot of energy. I feel they will be in the playoffs next year. Lets make some good off season move(s) and hopefully find the the right matches for a team that only needs a couple of piecess to get them to 90+ winning seasons. Go Twins!
Therefore, they did not deserve to have home turf more then the Twins who had actually woin the season series.
I am done respondng to the “coin flip” trolls!! you give Twin fans a bad name and put a bad mark on the surprisingly great season the Twin players had
It is a ridiculous rule no matter who it involves. I don’t care how long the stupid rule has been in place!
I am done responding to Fire who is nothing but a troll in general.
Nora.. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Nora, nothing’s fair in life, is it?
How do you think the 1987 St. Louis Cardinals, who won 10 more games in the regular season than we did, feel?
We lost fair and square. Get over it.
Thank you, Twins for a wonderful season. Never in a million years did I think we’d have a shot at the playoffs and in a way, you gave us our own mini-version against Chicago last weekend and again last night. Hold your heads high because you should be proud of what you accomplished. Here’s to 2009 and the chance to reclaim the division title in Twins Territory doing it the Twins way.
Twins did not lose fair and square and nothing you can say will change my mind. So why don’t you get over it.
Twins had a nice season, better than you would expect for a team that opened in April with Mike Lamb, Livan Hernandez and Craig Monroe. Had the entire division not been mediocre, the Twins would not have been playing 163 games. On paper, the Twins overachieved while the White Sox underachieved, too bad for most of you that trend didn’t continue last night. The future looks bright for the Twins…and I’m not a Twins fan, so I can say that without the rube goggles you all wear.
Nora,
Already over it…now time for you to do the same!
and if you hate the coin flip rule, you should have been b*tching about it at the start of the season. keep apologizing for your squad, they weren’t even the fifth best team in the AL, let alone the fourth.
“Johan Liriano”
Now THAT’S a pitcher! ! !
I think someone has hijacked Nora’s moniker I don’t remember her being so illogical and emotional.. wait…
Nellie, the Sox WON. If they had continued their trash talk even after they won, then they would truly be the all time sh*theads. To talk nicey nice in victory about your opponents is not in my opinion any proof of character, just proof they aren’t absolute trash.
And the white Sox are? HA that is a joke!
All,
May I respectfully request an end to the coin flip discussion.
There’s so much else.
thank you Howard!!
Teams getting home field advantage even though they lost the season series? If that is logical I am fine being called illogical.
Alright Howard. And Fire, you certainly did not help it ending sooner either.
Thanks, Howard.
Can I ask our lively panel…is it okay to wonder where Mauer or Morneau were last night, or is that un-Minnesotan?
I think someone above said they were “pressing”. How do you “press” in a game like this if you’re a team leader? Pressing is something you would expect Go-go and Span to do.
Agreed Howard it was a fun year and the Twins i think over achieved this year but at lest they gave us all something to cheer about all year. I give Gardy a lot of credit for getting the most out of these young guys. I’m optimistic for next year but i still a little skeptical because we only have four proven players coming back Mauer, Morneau, Nathan and Baker. The rest of these guys still have a lot to prove and the AL central will be even tougher next year.
Those youngster proved alot to me this year…I only see them getting better because of it.
Nora unless I have the power to stop you from posting to this blog I have no way to end “it” only you have that choice. I respect your obvious passion for the Twins and your taking their demise hard.
Well, you were responding as well. There would likely have been one post if it was ignored.
It wasn’t one mistake. It was two. The pitch that Thome knocked into tomorrow was the exact same spot as the pitch before that he just missed. Either way, I feel totally let down. By the batting champion swinging like arse, to Morneau looking like he couldn’t have been more out of place at the plate if the bat had been up his … nose. Wasted at bats, a wasted effort by Blackburn where a two bad pitches caused a whole season to be crap. I’ve never NOT looked forward to next year like I do now. I dread the whole thought of baseball right now.
Your right though. At times my ‘passion’ gets away from me. LOL
Jason - Morneau have been a no show for awhile, he obviously doesn’t deserve the MVP, Mauer has been setting the table for him down the stretch, last night unfortunately we needed someone to hit a Dank mistake out of the park.. we all know Mauer can’t do that.. this last game should prove to everyone that the Twin’s offensive game while effective over the long haul of a regular season is limited during a heightened playoff game where the pitching is top notch and you need multiple mistakes by the oppsoing pitcher to generate runs where as with HR power you need only 1 mistake.. something to debate and think about over the off season
I think the Twins need a power arm in the pen and a right handed 3B like an Adrian Beltre
Right Firegod. Twins HAVE to write the big checks for free agents to get over the hump. Chicago did, and BOUGHT themselves a playoff spot.
Not that there’s anything wrong with that, but that’s what happened.
Thanks Howard both for your beginning words and blowing the ref’s whistle on the (unmentionable) topic.
Several things:
- first I’m sick of hearing about the AL Central as being weak. Please look at the final standings. Can there be anything weaker than the AL West with the Mariners? Well, um, possibly the NL West of course.
- Jason, nothing un-MN about not talking about M&M. For myself I didn’t mention it because it was so friggin obvious and so friggin disappointing.
IMHO there is more than clutchiness here. I think there are some bb things that need improving. Not easy but it would certainly help if Mauer could reduce his GIDP % a bit. Or ground outs period. I won’t even go into (again) how a guy with such superior hand-eye coordination and be a large person also be so lacking in power, as in HR. And while I sympathize with the beating he takes behind the plate, Mike Piazza was a catcher also, wasn’t he?
I still think Justin needs to do something with his stance at the plate. Can’t blame him after the Villone beaning for not wanting to crowd the plate but he is making it way too easy to pitch him away.
Mauer and Morneau both failed to come through last night. It happens. They’ll be having to live with that (and Morneau with his overall underperforming the past couple weeks) all off season. I hope it just motivates them to do better next year.
But this team has never been about just 2 guys carrying them. Seems like it was a different player or players who was/were responsible for coming through in the games they won. Last night, outside of Cuddyer and Blackburn, nobody was able to step up and get the job done.
Hopefully Smith will get M&M a little help in the off season.
Just my 2 cents -
1.) The coin flip 3 weeks ahead of time is ridiculous. There has to be a better way. Head-to-Head makes sense. How about Division record since they are going for the division title (if they did that, the White Sox would have had home field).
2.) But again, the Twins played poorly the last month kind of across the board. One more win again the Royals. All the losses in Seattle. It’s hard to be too upset about a coin flip. They had chances.
3.) And that was the rule at this time. MLB needs to consider changing it, but until they do, that was the rules that the teams knew they had to play by.
Mauer does not hit for alot of power because of his swing. Same with it being the swing pf a skinny guy like Ramirez (besides Cellular field being a virual launching pad)
Wah Wah Wah….are you twinkie fans really complaining about the coin flip? How about not celebrating Thursday night like you won the world series and wait until Sunday when you have taken care of business and beaten the Royals 2 out of 3
Compliment your team..they had a solid year with a lot to build on. Talk about the future…talk about missed opportunities…but for heavens sake dont cry about the coin flip
Wow, a half morning of coin flip discussion. I didn’t miss much while I was away.
Question, now that Morneau showed he does not deserve the MVP, who gets it? Pedroia….Youk
I want to say Morneau’s crappiness down the stretch had to do with his 163 games played. I think he averaged about 150 in the past couple years. I would imagine between picking bad throws from the left side of the infield and carrying the team for 4 months, that it just gave out.
Setg, The problem with that is didn’t the Sox have chances as well?
Sorry, I mean Seth
Seth you must not have gotten the memo.. Howard respectfuly said ixsnay on talking about the monetary metal object flipping in the air
Sox trolls need to stay out of the discussion.
Overall I’m pleased. The Twins far exceeded a lot of people’s expectations. I’m not sure what’s up with Morneau and Mauer, but those guys have not been impressive to me at all this year. I hope they get out of their funk in the off-season.
Thanks for a GREAT summer of baseball!!
Morneau just got worn down playing every single game!! Gardy kept saying that the offense would fall apart if he gave Justin a day off, who do you blame? Gardy for not taking some “chances” and resting Morneau or blame Billy for not assembling a roster where the manager feels he HAS to play him every single game??
Mudcat, I have to disagree with you about Whities buying this playoff spot. Two of the big reasons they got this far are named Carlos Quentin and Alexei Ramirez.
They got Quentin because the Dbacks FO was dumb enough to give Eric crash dummy Byrnes a large and long contract and tossing off Quentin. The Cuban Missile I have no idea how Kenny Williams landed him. The Missile BTW folks is not a young rookie like our rookies are truly young. He’s 27 and a veteran of the Cuban National Team, the closest thing to MLB outside of the US of A.
I still suspect that Williams took on Griffey as a “project” to help a fabulous African American player get arguably his final chance at the WS ring that has eluded him all these years.
IMO not only do the Whities have a bigger budget but they have a pretty darn good GM, at this point better than BS.
Don’t let a 1-0 game cloud your vision. The White Sox were better last night. But only a little bit. I did my dwelling for about a half-hour after the game. Spilled milk. Done. Get over it. Wait ’til next year.
Good team, good season. And, Howard, very good blog. Enough said.
It is easier though as a GM when you have so much $$ to get sluggers if they need to. Twins don’t have those resources.
Whites have a GM that has millions more in resources to work with
W. Sox 2008 payroll - 121.1M
Twins 2008 payroll - 56.9M
pretty sure if Billy had double his current payroll we would have had replacements for Neshek,a competent 3rd baseman, and a starter at SS
Hey! Alright, no more coin flip talk!
Just Morneau bashing!
But Beisbol, I’m thinking of the guy who hit the winning homer and the guy who threw out the (maybe) winning run.
“The coin flip 3 weeks ahead of time is ridiculous.”
Well, Seth, we’ve been put on notice not to go there…
2 hits in a make or break game, no matter the venue, is ridiculous.
Still, it was a great year. I’ll say it–a great year.
Somebody had to lose. A well-played one run game, to decide who goes on. Who can ask for more (except a win)? No reason to lament any of it.
Maybe there is a better way to decide it than a coin flip and it probably should be cast in stone in advance.
But, as we just put the Twins to bed for another season we can all say it was a fun season. Again, who can ask for more?
To me, losing to the Sox is sort of like sibling rivalry. I like Ozzie and his team, I hope they do well the rest of the way.
We were on borrowed time it seems, but I, along with what sounds like most of you as well, had fun while it lasted. Actually met some very cordial white sox fans last night. We shook hands afterwards and agreed it was a very well played game and very respectable way to go out/win. I heard several people say it last night and I have to agree, it was the type of tight, hang on to every pitch type of game in a high-pressure situation that reminds you why baseball is far and away the best sport out there. My thanks to Howard for the forum here thanks to all the bloggers for making my workdays go by a little quicker. I’ll be checking in over the winter and let’s hope the Twins spend their last year in the dome with an absolute crusher of a third baseman!
On Morneau…
I was taken back a bit by that portion of Howard’s blog…I would argue that for the great majority of the season, Gardy had to play Morneau as not only was he his one true power threat, but he also was a consistent hitter! He finishes the year at an even .300, which is very impressive.
I’m not sold on the cause and effect of playing everday and slumping late…I’m not sure what the reason for the slump was, but look, they had the day off on Monday (as well as the previous Monday) and it didn’t seem to help. So I don’t know. I think there were times this season when you would envision Morneau getting a day off but the bottom line is the guy was such a key component of what they did offensively that it really made no sense to bench the guy at any point.
It was a helluva ride. Helluva ride. But it hurts pretty bad right now. 5 months until the first spring training game. Seems like a long time. But it will come.
It will come.
…. and I want to see some bullpen upgrades too! Mijares looked good though, eh? A little erratic, but the balls on that kid for going out there 2 weeks after being called up and not doing any more damage than was already done. I like it!
Losing to one of the world’s largest and wealthiest cities who have world championships in every major sport and the money to throw around to win even more is just a little more than sibling rivalry to me, but that’s OK, I’m with you on everything else.
Oh my, sorry Howard, at the risk of substituting one type of money flying through the air with another type of money, the folding kind, here goes. Feel free to blow your whistle at any time.
Nora and FIRE, you obviously totally ignored the main point of my post. I KNOW Whities have a huge payroll especially compared to Twins. But did you not see the names Carlos Quentin and Alexei Ramirez in my post?????
Quentin was available to anybody to pick up, he currently makes $400k. The Missile makes just over a mil, even the Twins can afford that, what the heck we still owe $3 mil on LambChops alone.
I’m giving props to Kenny Williams not because he has a big budget, we all know that, but for finding these two guys. I guarantee you, without those two guys, there would be absolutely NO discussion of money flying through the air to determine venues.
It was a good game, it was a good season, it was a good ride, but changes need to be made sooner than later.
A lot of bad decisions throughout the year were made in several levels. I am not going to enumerate them. The Twins need to learn their lessons from this year and make changes to improve the team next year, instead of patting themselves on the back and calling this disgrace a “successful season”.
It all on one’s definition of success: for some success is competing. For some success is wining the division half of the time and bailing out early at the post season, for others is wining it all.
Unless the bar is set high, this team will not get higher. It is that simple . And unfortunately, I do not see the bar tried to get set any higher…
Here is an example: “162+” on those shirts, should have been changed to “Twins world champions 2008″. If you cannot dream it, you cannot believe it and you cannot make it happen.
And the blame should go to the ones who should have provided leadership for this team, instead of leading it to falling apart in the end of the season while competing for a title. It is about time that this fan base had about enough of the manager and his coaches and Smith makes the necessary changes to bring a WS title in 2009.
Nenetheless, they have that money and players like Thome in the lineup who I think make a big difference as well…
That is alot of protection around them. Twins have a much smaller budget and really can’t afford a ton of protection around Morneau.
So thrylos, you are saying that they should Fire Gardy? The same guy many are saying is a top 3 Manager of the Year candidate. The same guy who took a 79 win team and turned them into a contender. I can’t buy that. There are definitely issues with this team, but it does not start with the coaching staff.
I would just like to thank Howard and all of you for enhancing my baseball pleasure to an extent spam emails only promise. I have not said much, but I have learned a great deal.
I DO believe I was the first to introduce the concept/curse of baseball haiku. Sorry. I won’t do that again.
Jason,
Interesting counterpoint on Morneau. I’m still feeling like if he’d had a couple of games off (a couple, not a dozen) before scheduled off days, the long-term benefits would have outweighed the price of those missed games.
But you’re also right when you say there was little else in the way of power in the lineup. This team needs another bat.
Sox lucked out on Quentin. If everyone knew how they would turn out there would be a bidding war for him. Players don’t come cheap unless they have something to prove.
W. Sox 2008 payroll - 121.1M
Twins 2008 payroll - 56.9M
Rays 2008 payroll -43.7M
it’s not what you spend. It’s how you spend it. Payroll is not linearly related to success. The Twins were spendthrifts this year, wasting about $25 million on Livan, Everett, Lamb, Rincon and Monroe. That would have brought in 2 $12.5m good players who would have an impact in the team.
Time to stop shopping at the bargain bins, but identifying needs and going balls out to solve them (e.g. don’t resign Punto at $3.5M to be your starting SS next year but pay $9M and go after Furcal)
Don’t mind thrylos, he’s one of the people who’s invented that “Loss by Manager” stat that is completely subjective and based entirely on knowing the results of the decision vs. assuming the alternative would’ve obviously worked better.
Gardy doesn’t deserve to be fired. Nor would Ozzie had he been in this position. (I just think Ozzie’s job MAY have been on the line the last few days)
Mudcat, again, without Quentin especially, there would have been no play-off (or play-in, as some call it, never heard of that before). Twins would have won it all. Back in the early days when Whities were only ones in AL Central not beset with injuries they still stank until Quentin picked it up.
I would also suggest the opposite side of the flying money issue (I almost used a synonym for “opposite” starting with the letter “f” (no NOT thst f-word!) that might have gotten us back to the other money discussion no no!! :)) would also have been moot if Quentin hadn’t clobbered himself with his own bat. I think the Twins would not have gotten in if he had not gotten hurt.
So Thome and AJ would not have happened at all.
Re: Morneau,
there is a lot of public outcry from the quasi-local NYC media about the Mets’ collapse v2.0 this year and a lot of finger pointing esp toward David Wright. There is a pretty strong rumor mill going about trading Wright to the Twins for Morneau, 1 for 1.
Anyone here who wouldn’t do that in a heartbeat?
First, thank you Howard for your passion of the game, well-thought out posts and running a generally civil blog spot. I don’t always agree with you but you are clearly knowledgeable and passionate about this game and this team.
Second, some thoughts on the season and last night: nice run but there were too many unnecessary mistakes made throughout the year - in the end, this team shot itself in the foot. Except for the 3-game sweep, Sept was rather ugly. No PR for Cuddy last night? Ugh. No PH for Punto in the 8th? Ugh. Blackie pitched his heart out; hated to see him hang his head in the dugout. He had absolutely no reason to hang his head. This team could not score him one single run. Very disappointing end of the season for the M&M boys. With Morneau struggling, our only other threat to tie the game with one swing was sitting on the bench except for one at bat. Dang.
Third, next year: I am so impressed with Mijares. He has been great since getting a chance but more so last night, he’s young, inexperienced, pitching on the biggest stage of his life, and he comes in cool as can be and does an awesome job. Neshak, you might have lost your set-up role! Gomez, Young, Span and Casilla should all be back and even better next year. Hopefully, BS saves Gardy from himself and lets LNP go (Gardy will never use him in the role he should be, bench, utility player). A power-hitting 3rd baseman would be nice BS, although I could, perhaps, see Harris in that role. The future does look bright!
We don’t know what would have happened if Quentin was there. He went and did a dumb thing and got hurt but that does not mean he gaurunteed the Sox would be in the playoffs. Twins might be in the playoffs as well if he did not go into a big slump but it was not a gauruntee either.
T,
it is not hindsight…
examples:
How many games should Rincon/Bass/Guerrier blow before one should stop using them?
At what level should Livan Hernandez’ ERA go before he stops starting? (Livan lost his last 2 starts, with good run support; imagine what could have happened if the line was drawn earlier and Liriano started those games)
How many hitless games should Monroe/Cuddyer/Lamb have before they are out of there?
How many whiffs should Gomez have because he moves down the lineup?
To what level should Punto’s and Buscher’s BA drop in Sept. before they are replaced in the lineup?
Good management is about learning what your players can do and based on their performance in similar situations, anticipate their performance in a particular situation and use them to the team’s advantage. Gardy does not do that. He works with his “hunches” and “favorites” and is usually a little bit too late to right the ship when things go wrong…
Sorry, ‘He’ for the Twins means Morneau.
It’s Gardy’s fault, he kept putting Guerrier and Crain in to blow game night after night after night after night after night after night. This is not an exaggeration. They probably blew upwards of 10-15 games in August and September by putting the same failures out on the mound night after night. It’s being stubborn, like Brad Childress…the Vikings will go 1-15 and he WILL NOT bend on his horrible game plan and play-calling. Coaches move the pieces into place so they can perform at their highest levels. It’s Gardy’s fault, his eek out a win every night mentality has to go, you need to have an attack and destroy mentality. The last team I can honestly say that has won anything in any sport that didn’t have an attack and destroy attitude is the San Antonio Spurs. I’m tired of watching sleepy players coached by a sleepy coach.
What a great season. You really can’t ask for more than being able to play meaningful ball into late Sept. Baseball is a game that guarantees you nothing. Just ask the Tigers and the Indians (and Yanks). And in baseball the best team doesn’t always win (e.g. Cardinals of 2006). The drama and euphoria of the last 3 game series w/ the Sox in MN will be my best memory from this season.
But as much as I am a fan of the Twins, I think we have be prepared for a very competitive 2009. The Twins overachieved this year and I think it unlikely they will hit .300+ with runners in scoring position next year. That’s really what kept us in it all year long with no HR power. I also think the Twins need to start thinking about the 2010 team. Not playing in the Dome will require a different kind of team - speed is good but it won’t be as big an advantage when not playing more than half your games on turf. That being said, I look forward to seeing the careers of Span, Gomez, Young, Casilla, Baker, Blackburn, Slowey, Franchise, Perkins and Mijares develop. These guys are just starting their careers and already have playoff(like) experience. If we could get a legitimate 3B that would really complete this team. We’ve got some pitching and we have 5 MLB outfielders. That’s got to be able to get something.
Last thought - I agree that Morneau probably just got tired at the end of the season. Hope that Gardy agrees and will rest him regularly next year. His bat should have made a difference in the last couple weeks.
“Anyone here who wouldn’t do that in a heartbeat?” Not me even though Wright would be a huge upgrade at 3B we still wouldn’t have a quality 1B to take Justins spot.
Nora, it was not luck. It has been reported that Williams had wanted Quentin for quite some time. He apparently saw the guy’s ability even though AZ GM Byrnes (no relation I don’t think to crash dummy) saw him as expendable. Was he wrong when crashdummy finally found some hard surface he couldn’t overcome and went on the DL. Dbacks never recovered from that and went from sizzle to fizzle.
Twins trolls need to stay out of the discussion.
When the “franchise’ can’t beat the Royals at the big inflatable toilet, your team is not spectacular.
When nobody in the division can dominate and run away with it, that’s parity, but not a strong division. Look at the divisional record versus the AL East or West….the Mariners may be awful, but the Central didn’t own the west division, because the Central is weak from top to bottom.
Thry, I’m going to jump ahead and recycle back later, I see Nora may have latched onto another ref whistle topic.
Go read ESPN website article about Wright. They think he’s a head case at clutch time. As much as Justin slumped badly in Sept. I don’t think he’s a head case. So no, even though I’ve coveted Wright as that power 3B and would have thrown a lot at the Amazin’s for him, right now maybe not so much. Wright has lots of veteran power hitters on his team…if he’s a head case with all that around him, what would he do in MN???
Gardy did make the decision to start Blackburn, he pitched well. Gardy managed the rotation solidly throughout the year.
You wanna know what Gardy didn’t do. He DIDN’T go 0-6 in the final game. That’s on Mauer and Morneau. However, I guess blaming the manager for not going 162-0 is a lot easier to do.
It has been said that you will win 60 games and loose 60 games and it is what you will do with the other 42 games that will make the differance. The Sox and Twins where the same in all stats when it came down to win and loses both home and away and division. Both teams failed to take care of business during the 162 game season. From a Sox fan from Chicago who was at the game last night, both teams played good. It could of gone the other way with one swing of the bat buy some one in the middle of your line up. Don’t go sounding like Cub’s fans that always have an excuse and try to put the blame on some one. If you are not on the field you CAN’T know what it’s like.
Beisbol-a-GO-GO Maybe he’s a head case because he’s living in a huge fishbowl in NY and the pressure is getting to him moving to Minnesota would help. I would love to have Wright on the Twins but not at the expense of losing Justin.
Thank you for hours of enjoyment over
this season. Win or lose we always
looked forward to another game. My 98
year old father missed very few of your
games and really enjoyed it too.
Any talk of trading Justin for Wright is crazy talk. Justin is the MVP of the franchise. You don’t trade him away. Wright would solve a hole at 3B, but leave a huge hole at 1B. I wouldn’t want that trade off.
I would not pull the trigger on a Morneau-Wright trade from either side. How many All-star caliber players would want to go from NYC–>MN? You think Wright would be happy playing in MN after playing in NYC? And does Morneau have the capability of playing in the NYC media glare? It’s okay to trade role players between big-small markets but to trade/trade-for top players on your team and risk it not working out due to playing environment is not worth it.
Gardenhire gets another free pass for blowing a big game. This man’s record in games that really matter should be exposed. I am completely convinced that another manager could win just as many, if not more games in 2008 than our bearded choke artist masqerading as a saint. The front office sticks with Livan way too long, and we don’t hear a whisper of dissent from the homers that pass as a Twin Cities media corps. Gardenhire torpedos their chances with crazy bullpen moves, nonsensical pitch counts and paint-by-numbers managing, and gets lifetime employment and non-stop accolades from a soft fan base. As a long-time Twins fan, I’ve had enough of fans in this state rubber stamping whatever this organization does. The parties responsible for losing what was a very winnable division should be called out. Patrick Reusse is about the only one willing to take on that task. There’s no one else. What a dream to manage in a state so completely forgiving of misjudgement and incompetence. Minnesota: where mediocrity is always good enough.
Great season, exceeded expectations. Now let’s kick off the hot-stove talk.
Next year: PLEASE get rid of Delmon Young! PLEASE!! That was probably the worst trade the Twins have ever made…at least in the last 10 years Not having Garza/Bartlett cost us the division title. Delmon makes it an adventure every time a ball is hit his way (easily our worst defensive outfielder) and his at-bats are excruciating to watch. Use him as trade bait (for a decent third baseman with some power or bullpen help).
We need a shortstop. Punto is not the answer.
We need another power hitter beyond Morneau (hopefully in the form of a new third baseman?). There’s nobody batting 5th right now that gives pitchers any reason to throw to Justin in situations like nobody on/two outs, etc. Also, Gardy needs to sit him down now and then, even if he thinks he’s the next Cal Ripken. Looked tired at the end and lost plate discipline.
Bullpen is a BIG issue. Neshek is a huge question mark for next year. We MUST have a reliable setup guy for the 8th inning.
Work hard to get Gomez to hit better situationally (bat control, moving runners, etc.) and also get Molitor to coach the heck out of him on base stealing. He could be a Ricky Henderson-type threat but he’s too raw and undisciplined in too many ways right now.
Sign Mauer to about a 6-year extension THIS WINTER! He is an amazing talent at the plate, defensively plus he calls a great game. We need him as a fixture in the lineup and he’ll only get more expensive. 2 batting titles at the age of 25, the only catcher to ever win one? Enough said.
Few other kinks in the system but I think addressing the above would go a long way toward keeping them in the hunt–and beyond–next year.
Thanks again for a fun year and can’t wait until pitchers/catchers report in February!
i read this on LENIII and though it was interesting: here’s a little something to chew on for those of you that would like to get a big bat to support our young hitters
this is the forbes listing of team earnings http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/33/biz_baseball08_The-Business-Of-Baseball_Income.html
go to the last column and click it to sort the earnings. it interesting. another thought-the startrib listed the median home price in the twin cities as 200000. if you had a net worth of a million dollars, you could buy one house a day for 5 days. to give you a perspective pohlad is listed on forbes.com as having a net worth of 3.1 billion dollars. that means he could buy 15500 of those houses. or to put it another way- he could buy a house a day for the next 42.4 years. the median household income for minnesota is 55800. the average season ticket for target field 1640, 20 dollars per game. that means to purchase 2 season tickets will cost 5.87 percent of one’s gross income. twins payroll this year is 56,932,766. that is 1.83 percent of pohlads net worth. taxpayers are picking up 392 million of the cost of this new stadium. take this as you will, all i’m saying is that in these hard times, thanks in large part to bankers (where home grown pohlad made his Billions)- i want to see a comittment to our community. a legit free agent would be a good start
I didn’t read through all the posts so I apologize if somebody already brought this up, but I noticed that Morneau was wearing some sort of pad above his left elbow. Some kind of injury we don’t know about?
I think that a hole at 1B is fixed easier than a hole at 3B, esp. when there is a decent 1B out there who would command annually about what they Twins wasted on Livan, Monroe, Lamb and Rincon this year.
This team has to go after
Morneau’s and Wright’s numbers this season:
Morneau: (27 years old) 129 .300/.374/.499 23 HR 129 RBI
Wright (25 years old): .302/.390/.534 33 HR 124 RBI.
To get quality you need to give quality…
Imagine this lineup:
Span RF
Mauer C
Texeira 1B
Wright 3B
Kubel/Cuddyer DH
Young LF
Furcal SS
Casilla 2B
Gomez CF
better than the current?
Sad to see it end this way. A few (very critical) changes needed. Still not happy with Gardy’s inconsistencies - he is no better than a .545 manager and not a playoff caliber one for sure. Good young nucleus BUT when will the team be equipped for a real run for the World Series??
Fun year but many questions remain - it is now up to the Pohlads and Smith. How can we, the fans, add real pressure??
You people asking the Twins to get rid of Young are crazy, and it isn’t going to happen. His production slumped a little this year but he’s 23 yrs old and put up nearly 100 rbi last year. This guy has a lot of potential and the Twins knew exactly what they were doing when they traded for him. Sky/teflon roof is the limit with this kid.
Haiku’s go in verses with 5, 7, and 5 syllables, but nice try.
Wow. Jay, that is one of the best posts I have ever read. Too many writers and too many fans are happy with 2nd place on what was a slam dunk division championship. I swear some of these idiot fans think the Twins are little leaguers. Imagine if the Cardinals had done nothing (same size city and market)No other team in the entire league would have done nothing when any kind of reliever was needed. Honestly, I am glad this team lost. If they would have won, the front office would have continued to do nothing in the future(they probably still will anyway) at least now a few people will get that this was our division to win and if management gets one semi-solid arm for the bullpen, the team wins the division by 5 games. A monkey could manage this team. Teach the monkey to get the pitcher when he reaches 95 pitches. When a lefty is up bring in a lefty. When a righty is up go switch to a righty. Last night was the first time Gardy managed to win. Sending Cuddy, pinch hitting for the immature freeswinging Gomez, leaving Majeres in there for more than one batter, not letting Guerrier pitch, bringing in Nathan in the 8th. Where was this when the team was struggling for a win and instead he brings in Boof or Matt G. to immediately give the game away? I could go on and on. Look at the year Morneau and Mauer had. What a shame to waste it on a team with a front office who refuses to try.
“thrylos98″ - as painful as it may be, I agree that the Twins may need to consider a major/blockbuster (real “cojones” needed here) deal: Morneau, Cuddyer, Kubel, and Young are going to have to be considered for trading bait if the Twins want to make a serious and realistic run at the WS. None of them are “October Men”
PLEASE - Stop it with all this “potential crap!”
I dont understand how people can be excited for the future. Yes, the staff looks good. Yes, Mauer and Morneau will only get better. However, when management refuses to help the club. When management refuses to resign their best players. When all management can muster to bolster the roster is guys like Rondell White, Batista, Lamb, Everett, Ponson, and Livan Hernandez, what exactly is there to be excited about. The team needed a middle inning reliever - it brought up something called Randy Ruiz. Someone please show me where the Twins front office is trying to win.
Twinkie. Now this is a guy who gets it.
BC, good point about Wright. He’s a Tidewater guy like Cuddyer, so East Coast but not necessarily big city. Guess we’ll find out when he becomes a FA.
thrylos98, I cannot imagine any scenario where Texeira can be signed or will want to be signed by the Twins. You’re in the wrong universe.
So, Howard? What do the Twins do with their bonus starting outfielder? Right now, we have four starting-caliber outfielders. My recommendation is to move Cuddyer. Yes, I know people don’t like Young. But he’s only 23 with two season under his belt, and it’s far too early to write him off (like Gomez). He’s A) had only one truly good year (2006) and B) has had consistent injury troubles (I’m not about to label him as injury-prone because he’s not a pansy like J.D. Drew, but things always seem to happen).
Everyone wants a good 3B, but where is one going to come from? The top guys aren’t leaving their teams (David Wright, A-Rod, Detroit’s Favorite Fatty Cabrera, Longoria, Aramiz Ramirez, etc.) and the middle guys who might be available are overpaid, constantly hurt, or aren’t an improvement (Beltre, Blalock, etc.) Or do the Twins think Buscher the Butcher or Macri is the answer? If so, can Buscher make like Corey Coskie and become a good defensive third baseman?
Really cool to read all the crap.
Sorry Jay, Thrylos etal. This wasn’t a 250 win team, no matter what your crazy stats or theories say.
Regards,
Jim Thome never said he didn’t want to play here. At the time he was a free agent he was still playing first and there were a ton of whisperings about him coming here but Dougie was a first and Justin was just starting to emerge.
I think he’s hit about 50 plus homers in the Dome alone - why wouldn’t he want to be our DH?
I am glad it was Jimmy who hit the HR - good guy.
Anyway - I couldn’t have asked for a more enjoyable season, even with all the highs and lows. I look forward to next year, I’m pretty sure more fun is in store.
See you all in a few months.
be good
Twinkie, Span and Mijares to name a few. And Twins didn’t have to spend anything except draft picks to get them.
Someone beat me to this but it’s worth repeating:
BS needs to start transitioning the roster for outdoor baseball. Only one more season in the Humpdump. Crikket I said you got my #1 award for the best response back when Howard featured my “why no power” question as the lead to that day’s blog.
Speed on the bases will never get old, so need to keep that advantage. But small ball will not be enough unless as someone else said, they use a steamroller to prepare the field.
my point in relaying the above comment. it looks like we could get a FA that is a real threat. why not go after say texiera, manny, dunn, chipper et al. some have a club option but not all of those will be picked up.
Twins are not going to get much better if they trade away their best players it just means they will have more holes to fill.
the problem with trades is you have to trade talent to get talent. our farm system is not as deep as it was a couple of years ago and no one is going to give us a hard hitting 3B that can field cheaply for cuddy. id love it if they would but it isnt happening
Howard, great job today and all season. You are a rare talent in the blogosphere–somebody who gets that blogging isn’t just newspaper reporting or commentary.
I really appreciate how you generate and direct meaningful discussion and keep things entertaining. I look forward to an exciting off-season of brewing exuberance for the Twins in 2009.
Perhaps we can celebrate our last season in the vast grain bin and win a championship. As we see the Dome’s Twin greats march out onto the field ala the Yankees in Yankee Stadium at the end of next year, perhaps the great mystery will be solved as the person controlling the air conditioning will be recognized for his contribution to Twins dominance throughout the years!
As for the on-field product, I hear a lot about jettisoning one of the outfielders. That would be a big mistake–there are no guarantees these young guys won’t slump and we’ve got to get Morneau a break now and then.
The rotation of Cuddy, Delmon, Span, GoGo, Kubel, and Morneau through the outfield, DH and 1st base position will make us fresher, provide insurance from injuries and give us the depth we need to be a quality team.
Oh and another mistake would be to depend on a comeback from Neshek–with his delivery this injury could really be the end–he doesn’t have overpowering stuff in the first place.
So really the needs are rather modest. We need a couple of servicable arms in the bullpen–thanks to the emergence of Mijares as our potential 8th inning guy. But we need to have a few more dependable arms to spread the load.
And the long-discussed acquisition of Beltre, probably needs to happen–if the Mariners don’t try to hold us up as revenge for their charitable boon doggle in taking Silva off our hands.
I can hardly wait for spring training. It was a fun and thrilling ride. We probably weren’t ready for the post-season and may find this to be the best outcome for our young lads and front-office in the long-run.
I just don’t think it will help because the team will just traded good players to get good players back. Twins will pretty much be in the same spot that way.
Nora,
the points are that:
a. you have to give some value to get some value back
b. this core hasn’t gotten the Twins a world series for a while
c. if you trade a 27 y.o. 1B for a 25 y.o. 3B with better numbers and better potential is a steal of a trade, even though you would have to replace your 1B (Worse case scenario with that trade is that Cuddy who is a man with no position for 2009 will be the starting 1B for the Twins)
I turned on ESPN during lunch and Michelle Tafoya was whining about the coin……….issue. They didn’t think it made sense either, so I won’t bring it up.
Howard,
Excellent post.
It’s been an interesting and enjoyable year. While yesterday was very disappointing, there is a lot of reason for optimism for the future.
A lot of young pups got blooded. It will be interesting how Span, Casilla, Gomez, Young, Blackburn, Slowey, Perkins progress next year. Will they learn and grow? Will they consolidate? Were they a flash in the pan?
This group has the makings of a good core.
I expect Bill Smith to make at least one “value for value” trade (like Garza v. Young) to fill a perceived need.
Expecting far less turmoil during the offseason. Probably quite boring.
Keep up the good work.
Regards,
First Time, thanks for having more guts than me to bring up ManRam. I would luv to get ManRam. I don’t know with a superstar like him and with Boras as his agent whether a contract could be structured based on performance. My only concern with him is more disinterest and decline once he gets the contract. I thought he was declining physically this year but not anymore — he really perked up when it came time to put on a good show for the offseason.
thrylos i’m trying to hear you out here but it smells like a frank robinson type trade to me
alright,
let’s assume that Texeira is unattainable… How about Dunn for DH and/or 1B if Morneau is traded?
beisbol. i can only imagine how good morneau would have hit with manram behind him. the guys in front of him hit something like .450. i know he might be a cancer, but he would be loved in MN. we just dont do the NY boston thing and expect perfection. failure is part of the game and we get that. sometimes feeling like you are loved is great motivation
Mets would probably trade Wright for Nathan straight up. Then try to get Soria from Royals.
Ok, we’re back to dreaming about scenarios that involve Manny Ramirez in a Twins uniform? I can’t take 6 months of this…see you in April, folks.
dunn is listed as a FA. i know he strikes out alot, but he is a statistical anomaly. he also gets on base alot. plus when you know one pitch can burn you, pitchers make mistakes. maybe we see a more power out of mauer when there are 2 legit threats behind him.
Why do we always sugar coat our big losses when any of our major MN sports teams lose? Bottom line is when it comes down to crunch time and the big game MN chokes! It doesn’t matter if it’s the Vikings, Twins, Wild or the Timberwolves they can’t get it done when it counts. As for the Twins, yes they had a great season and played above their potential and finished better than anyone expected them to. As far as I’m conscerned it was a big disappointment. We should have run away with the division, but instead we had a terrible Sept and gave it away. Then when it came down to the big game we choked! I believe we played scared. Only 2 hits! You have to be kidding me. Mauer and Morneau a combined 0-6 with 3 K’s uncalled for. They are your 2 big time players who should live for that kind of game and they failed. Morneau doesn’t deserve the MVP after his performance in Sept. All we can do is wonder the what ifs all winter long and see how the Twins front office signs all the has beens again. Just to set up another disappointment for the end of next season.
Folks, this is the Twins we’re talking about. Don’t waste a keystroke on Manny Ramirez (do we always need to have cutesy names like “ManRam”?), David Wright or any other marquee name. The Twins will never acquire a star player. They’ll pursue declining veterans and marginal B-grade backups for bit roles and nothing more. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. Come back to earth. Again, this is the Twins. Go ahead and dream of Manny Ramirez if it makes you feel better. Just don’t take those kind of thoughts seriously.
MudCat,
It’s not that I object to the flippin’ issue, it’s just that we were going over and over and over and over it, like a spinning coin that won’t just drop! There’s too much good stuff on here from people for the discussion to get bogged down on that.
Jason,
Would a “Manny Ramirez” filter help you? 
If they wouldn’t have dinked around with Adam Everett and Craig Monroe and Mike Lamb, none of that would have been necessary. A failed season, from a fan suddenly seasoned in failure.
Since the Twins have 4 starter-caliber OFs, is there any chance they move Cuddy back to 3B?
He was an average defensive third baseman a few years ago and brings some pop back to the position.
i am sure the people of dallas were saying the same negative things about the maverics before cuban bought them
Jim Souhan’s said on KSTP last Saturday that the Twin’s org don’t like Delmon Young(his attitude, way he plays the game,lack of power and production) and are looking to trade him for a 3rd baseman or 8th inning reliever. He went on to stay the Garza for Young trade was essentially 2 teams unloading their “problems” on each other, too bad for Twin’s Young is the bigger problem!
I want:
1 - A power hitting, right handed 3rd Baseman
2 - A solid set up man with a + fastball
That’s it.
If we keep our same team and add those two parts, we wil 90+ games next year
haha…yes it would, Howard. install the filter.
The coin flip issue is one of those things we wouldn’t waste ten seconds on in the old days….but in today’s talk radio / talk tv / insta-blog world, we like to over-talk everything. We ignore the basic and unavoidable fact–we lost the game–and we divert our attention on something that is completely ancillary to the main fact.
Then we have a committee analyze it, we have a Congressional hearing, and we make a knee-jerk rule change on an issue that has gone unquestioned for over 100 years.
Bottom line for me is it reeks of whining / excuse making / missing the point. That’s why it’s embarrassing to focus on right now. If you want to discuss that issue in December, I may actually listen. But if you watched last night’s game and came to the conclusion that the story was plastic sheets in the clubhouse and coin flips (as Strib columnist Jim Souhan did), then to me, you’re missing the story and you’re diverting reality.
Howard:
I knew that Howard, I just feel like lashing out at an inanimate object like Carlos Quentin did to take out my frustrations, LOL!
Here is the bottom line for what the Twins have to spend in the off-season, if they are willing to get their payroll to 2007 level:
Pluses:
$15 million for the difference between 2008-2007
$5 million Livan
$2.5 million Rincon
$2.8M Everett
$2.4M Punto
$1M Reyes
$1M Guerrier
$.5M Lamb (the Twins have to pay him 3M in 09 but paid $3.5 in 2008)
$3.8M Monroe
$1M Redmond
total: +$35M
minuses:
Morneau +$3.2M
Mauer +$4.3M
Cuddyer +1.8M
Crain +$.7M
Kubel +? (assume $1M)
Young +? (assume $1M)
Harris +? (assume $.5M)
total: +12.5M
Net=
$22.5M
And this assumes that Cuddyer will be with the team next year…
and they are willing to get to the league median payroll of $81M (Brewers), it would be $32.5M Methinks that this money is enough to make the difference if Smith does not try to look at the bargain bin…
Howard:
Great post–and Shana Tovah to you…
Waited a while to write to calm down from last nite–never expected 200+comments…almost like BatGirl.
Noticed a couple proposing trading Cuddyer–before you do–remember LEW Ford–Span/GoGo look to be good OFs for years–but so did LEW after one year. Keep Cuddyer around till we know for sure about Span/GoGo. Also Gardy should play Cuddy at 1B every once in a while and rest Morneau so he has something left for Sept. and Oct. I think Redmund (NBP) should have caught a few more games and given Mauer more of a rest.
All in all, a great year for the Twins much more than the 75 wins I expected.
DAM
Jay, the Amazin’s would probably throw in a bonus pick for Nathan! (LOL)
BrentG, please don’t blame Twins for Silva going to M’s. He was a FA and it’s M’s own stupidity for signing. Twins had seen what he had for several years and wouldn’t sign him again at half what the M’s gave him.
First Time, IMO the cancer thing is overblown. For every story about that there are ten times as many stories about what a hard worker he is. He seems more like a goofball than anything, at least his public face. ESPN was up in arms about him but does that surprise you? And for Curt BS Schilling to call him out, you just want to barf. ManRam wants his money and he’s happy when he gets it. That’s why a contract without performance components would be risky. But think what the youngsters would learn from this guy about hitting. And he could even teach GoGo and Lexi in Spanish!! When the Bosox were in town, GoGo was just buzzing around him and Big Papi. Big heroes probably to him.
thrylos98
thank you for understanding my point. a high profile FA isnt a pipedream. we have just developed a culture of thinking that such a thing would be impossible. and we dont have enough expendable talent to trade for a difference maker
to be clear, on my critique of Souhan’s column, I was talking about his first version last night (which I imagine ran in the outstate editions). I notice he has another one with more substance on the game, starring none other than A.J. Pierzynski.
We now know the real reason why Twins fans boo A.J., by the way: He’s a winner.
thrylos you make it seem like Wright is capable of hitting just as well when surrounded by Cuddy,Mauer,Young and Kubel instead of Reyes,Beltran and Delgado not likely.
Despite my tears last night, I woke thinking one thing…
Four 1/2 short months ’til spring training!
The coin flip issue is thoroughly baseball.
A real head scratcher.
Interestingly, MLB’s tie-breaking proceedure for 2 divisional teams who are tied when BOTH have clinched a spot in the play-off’s is 1.) head-to-head %…a coin flip is the 4th and final option.
NOW, like 2006, when both the Twins and Tigers were tied going into the final day, IF the Tigers had won, they would have won the division since they had the better record in the Twins/Tigers games, and the Twins would have been the wild-card.
I realize that those rules are in place to prevent a game to determine the Division Champion, why wouldn’t that same criteria be used for the home team in a play-off for a divisional champion?
That to me is the head scratcher.
Regards,
P.S. It’ll be nice to go a couple months (hopefully) without having to read F.G.A.V.’s poison.
thrylos,
Your Payroll calculations are good as they go, yet 2009 IS NOT the problem.
NO big FA signing is going to sign for 1 year. I think that it’s the out years which might be more problematic.
Regards,
Just a crushing way to end the season,this stings big time. We got screwed. Any other sport rewards teams with a better head to head record. What the heck is wrong with BUD “the MORON” SELIG. Its amazing how they can allow this to happen are they fricken blind to this. OK they don’t give us the division with a better head to head thats 1 screw job so at least we get a home game to decide this OOPS I guess not thats 2 screw jobs, but lets implement the instant replay 3/4 of the way thru the season. MAKE AN ADJUSTMENT WHEN YOU SEE SOMETHING IS NOT RIGHT!!!!!!! BUD YOU ARE DISGRACE TO BASEBALL I hope the Brewers get swept. I can’t stand the undeserving White Sox. Man this hurts big time.
the Dragon,
I look at the coin flip to determine home advantage in a tie breaker the same way I look at the coin flip to determine ball possession in the NFL overtime… Fair? No. But it is what it is.
First off, great season by our young Minnesota Twins. Sad the way it ended but it was a great learning experience and we certainly have time with our youth. Making the playoffs one year later and two years removed from 2006 will just make the birth sweeter with time. In the end, I think it is almost a blessing in disguise that our team full of rookies did not make it, making the playoffs year one could cause them to get bigheaded or something (COULD is the keyword, i like our young guys and think they have a good demeanor).
The Jim Souhan statement about the Twin’s FO not liking Delmon seems a little shady to me. Granted this is a fan’s prespective looking in, but Delmon always seemed to have a good attitude, get along with teamates, and so on. I definitely don’t think we should try to unload Delmon after one season…give him at least one, preferrably two more seasons to prove himself.
I agree the Twins need a powerful right-handed bat, and that person being a third baseman would be optimal.
I actually like a our bullpen for next year, we just need a couple extra parts. I like Nathan as closer of course, Neshek/Majiris set-up, Breslow. I would like to see us bring back Big Sweat but I’m not sure we need another lefty out there in the ‘pen. We do need a good, strong right-handed arm out there though.
I’d like to see us bring Punto back as well. Everett has to go, as well as either Buscher or Harris (can’t keep both around if we’re looking to bring in a third-baseman w/ power).
“The coin flip issue is thoroughly baseball.”
This is officially utterly hilarious.
White Sox fans today are debating the best way to figure out the Rays and Twins fans are talking about coin flips.
A.J. Pierzynski is busy preparing for the Rays while Twins fans are complaining about A.J. Pierzynski.
Think about it. We had a great season, but we lost. Other than Manny Ramirez, it’s time to think about next year while enjoying what we had in 2008.
Jason, sorry to hear that you’re too high and mighty and always right to have to listen to me and First Time yak about ManRam. We are talking to each other, if it bothers you, skip our posts. And it’s not out of the realm of the impossible. The latest number bandied around on sports tv (and I was shocked that the number wasn’t higher) was $85 mil for 5 years. Like Johan, the sticking point for Twins FO would be the years, not the $ amount as Thry just did with his math.
From a Sox fan, only respect for a great Twins team and organization.The Sox were heartbreakers all year with the streaks and slumps, but I’ll always be a fan. Kudos to the Twins, next year will be here pretty quickly.
Oh yeah, and the unmentionable which I see continues to pop up again. Howard, you’re going to have to find freeware for an unmentionable zapper!
Contrary to what some are saying, not all of us who talked about the ummentionable are blaming the unmentionable for the end of the Twins season. Some of us agree 100% that the season was lost (and could have been won) long before the unmentionable was sent flying into the air.
Speaking only for myself I brought up the unmentionable only because most of the sports talk shows said exactly the same da*n thing, so it’s not just Twins fans whining. Yes, the rule has been around forever, so in the words of DGreen, it is what we thought it was. That said, maybe MLB would like to revisit it before the next century? By then I trust MLB will be comfortable with instant replay???
I think that any FO with some sense will not give a 5 year contract to a 36 y.o. player… A 3 year would be fine for Manny but not more… But at the end, Boras will find a team that is willing to do it
It was a fantastic season. They certainly gave us plenty of reasons to groan, and I realize saying this doesn’t make it any easier to lose the final game, but it’s true — if I’d known the Twins would have ended the season tied for first place, I’d have been ecstatic. There’s always next year. And for this team, it’s really true. They’re only going to get better. The players and manager and hopefully GM have learned some things, and there’s so many young players that will just keep getting better. I wouldn’t be so confident about any other AL Central teams getting better next year.
Whoops Jason, it was Jay that objected to ManRam. This time it was Howard’s bad because he said it was you.
Whoops again, Howard, have you ever had anybody retracting a retraction?? Jason, you’re not off the ManRAm hook after all. I see you objected also, sorry Howard, not a total bad on your part.
No I did too….
I honestly think it’s a pointless discussion on many levels, including the fact that there’s no way this organization brings in someone with his personality…but discussion is what this forum is all about, so go to it, I guess.
I just chuckle when people bring up high-priced free agents during the offseason, only to be greeted in March with Rondell White, Tony Bautista, Jeff Cirillo, Mike Lamb, and Craig Monroe, just to name a few.
when is cheap A$$ Carl going to spring for a power hitter? You cant win forever playing small ball. You need someone who can now and then win a game with one swing of a bat, like Thome did last night. Had the Twins had that, they would have pulled out at least one more game during the season to make last night game unnecessary.
OK I give up! Is there a real Jay and a troll Jay on here? One Jay says trade Nathan for Wright. Another Jay says forget about it re Wright, ManRam, etc. etc.
Should be working- read this bog instead. I had fun this year- caught a bunch of games- in Det., Bos, Cleve.Chi and the Dome- I saw some bad baseball and some good- and I have to say last Wed. PM was one of the most exciting games I’ve ever seen- live OR on TV.
I was happy the Twins stood pat at the trading deadline- I hope they sit down and make some decisions about next year
1. Which outfielder goes? Is Delmon going to shed those traits that irritate me so much and become a good regular? Can this organization teach him patience at the plate? I frankly have my doubts, and have heard that he is not a model for coachability.
2. Who’s going to play on the left side of the infield? I can’t take another year of Punto!
3. Morneau for Wright? I think that would be terrible from a marketing perspective. I enjoy, in this age of overhype and overcelebration, watching Morneau and Mauer quietly go about their business. They are from the Jim Thome school, and I mean that as a compliment- I don’t know how many times I’ve said today:”I hate Jim Thome”- but we all know we really don’t. Quiet dignity is a good thing.
4. I don’t see bullpen help as an isssue- the Twins have generally been able to cobble together a bullpen.
5. I’d like to see, just once, a big name free agent- Not Larry “Chipper” but perhaps Tex or someone- I know I’m dreaming but.. Anyway UMASS hockey opens their year Saturday- Let’s go Minutemen- see you Gopher fans in the NCAAs!
mleeob - what rock did you crawl out from troll!!!
Twins getting MANRAM is like me winning the lottery in every state at the same time! sure it could happen..
remember the Twins passed on Mark Prior because he was unsignable.. hindsight 20/20 it worked out great! but it points to the low budget, picking up washed up veterans ways of this franchise
The Twins have NO POWER HITTER whatsoever. A power hitter hits 30+ HRs, brings in over 110 runs and will hit over 40 doubles. The downside of most power hitters are hitting for no-so-high average (ie, Killebrew, Thome, Dunn, Ryan Howard, etc.) and Ks (Reggie Jackson, Mickey Mantle, Jim Thome, R. Howard, etc.). Take your pick - what wins championships in MLB? Good to great starting pitching, solid relievers, superb closer, clutch hitters (esp. in last 2 to 3 months), and a power slugger or two (usually two).
Okay, now take a Twins inventory and assess - is this the team to take us to the WS for the next 5 to 7 years? What do we need? (consider that Gardy and Smith are staying)
Well Jason if we couldn’t daydream and play GM/manager on these blogs, what would we be reduced to? Cubs fans? I know in my heart of hearts that chances are slim to none. There is still hope for slim. Seriously, though, a different owner, maybe different demands from a very docile fan base, an obnoxious local media would probably help the cause.
Baseball is a game. It’s a field of dreams. For the past few days I snuck in some real world news and peeks at my portfolio. UGGGHHHH. I’d rather blog about the slim to none with you guys.
Congrats to the Twins for a great season and providing, along with the WSox, a good run to the end. As a baseball fan what could be better than having the division go down to the wire with both teams having the exact same record and having a one game playoff? The score shows how closly matched these teams truely are. I also respected the amount of class that both teams and organizations have shown to each other. Sure there’s chest thumping and ball showing, but that’s part of the game and doesn’t diminish the respect and class each organization has shown. It’s a shame someone has to come out on the short stick.
One critisism though, let the coin flip go. If the Twins would’ve won it no one in MN would’ve complained and it was fair in the sense that the rule was known up front and both teams had an equal chance of winning.
Our season will probably be over in a few days so I’m sure we’ll all be watching the Cubs lose at the hands of Boston or LA.
Enjoy!
“I know most Twins fans hate that stuff, but hey, that’s why he’s wearing a World Series ring and we’re reflecting on the season right now.”
Um…the reason AJ is wearing a ring now has absolutely nothing to do with all the crap he does on the field. It has to do with the fact that the White Sox pitchers were pretty much untouchable in 2005, including giving up only 34 runs in 108 innings of postseason play.
The Twins suck and mailed it in yesterday. Too much celebrating and assuming they won it all on Sunday..you’d think they just won game 7 of the world series. They should have just high fived and walked into the dugout. Quit whining about AJ…face the facts there isn’t a better student of the game in all of baseball. Did you see him fake like the ball went to the backstop? He gives 100% and is always thinking. The fact that he’s always in the middle of controversy isn’t a coincidence. I’d take him back over Mauer anyday……
WhiteSoxNation, good to see there are some classy Whities fans out there. I’m more optimistic about your club’s chances than you are. Your starters have held up well although it might be wise to send Javy to the pen. Linebrink and of course Jenks look solid. You’re probably going to get Quentin back sometime.
” It has to do with the fact that the White Sox pitchers were pretty much untouchable in 2005, including giving up only 34 runs in 108 innings of postseason play.”
who do you think caught all those pitchers, and called those untouchable games?
Good post Howard, you put everything in perspective very well.
We all have our own gripes, myself included, but I’m not going to go into detail because many of them have already been hammered out. That being said, I’m still proud of my boys.
Have a good offseason guys (as BatGirl would say, “the offseason sucks!”), and thanks Howard. You’re a gem. See you in ‘09!
“I’d take him back over Mauer anyday……”
And your team would be worse for it.
“who do you think caught all those pitchers, and called those untouchable games?”
The same guy who caught all the games last year when they went 72-90 with a 4.77 ERA.
Thank you Twins for the great season. You need to hold your heads up. This was a successful season and have alot to be proud of. This is a team that noone expected to do anything. We have alot of young players who now have one good year of experience under them and all I can say is watch out for the TWINS in 2009!
I’d take him back over Mauer anyday
the math is not AJ for Mauer…
It is AJ for Mauer + Nathan + Liriano + Bonser
I’d take AJ back for Bonser any time. The Twins need a back up catcher for next year
MIL beat PHI
CHI beat LAD
LAA beat BOS
TBR beat CWS
CHI best MIL
LAA beat TBR
LAA wins WS
Yeah…do the math…..AJ has a ring and maybe one more this year…Nathan+Liriano+Bonser= 0. I wouldn’t count out the Whities this year…they’ve got the big mo and EVERY single “expert” has them going down to the Rays. Wouldn’t that be the ultimate curse for the Cubs…losing to the Sox in the world series??
Why are we all being so nice about another Minnesota team choking when it matters? It’s always the same crap every year….”good try (insert team), next year we will be much better”. They cut the payroll by $20 million and brought in 3 losers in free agency who weren’t on the team at the end of the year. And we call that a success? We build a $400 million tax payer funded stadium and then traded away the best pitcher in baseball for some prospects. And you all just swallow this bitter pill by saying “well we tried hard….”
I think that the ultimate World Series this year would be Dodgers and Boston. Dodgers winning game 7 at Fenway with an extra inning Manny HR and Manny is named the MVP.
Sorry, but I cannot root for Chicago (and Wisconsin for that matter) teams…
“Yeah…do the math…..AJ has a ring and maybe one more this year…Nathan+Liriano+Bonser= 0.”
If that’s all the math we need to do, we don’t need AJ. Mike Redmond has a ring.
That post by Kane at 2:03 was actually me. Seems like that bug is still around.
Good point Kane! The dome was worth at least 20 wins this year…especially against the Sox. It might be “wait till 10 years”
where I dont cut the Twins, specifically Pohlad any slack is in the power hitter area. (I do think the team and Gardy are doing their best, even Morneau, who stunk lately, is owed a slump)
But for YEARS, the we have known this team has a serious lack of power, and yet they fail to address this. The reason is of course power costs money, but you have to spring for this now and then. They could have had Frank Thomas a couple years back for an incentive laden contract and would not even do that.
Zygi, for all his faults, is not afraid to go out and spend money. Having said that, he does operate in a salary cap, revenue sharing environment. But the Twins can never go too far without a pure power hitter, like Thome. And for that, I blame Pohlad, and Pohlad only.
Yes, Kane, we taxpayers of Hennepin County are springing for 400 million and Pohlad will not do anythign other than sign re treads.
Apparently Jim Pohlad was approached over the winter and asked if the team had considered signing Johan has a good will gesture to the public who was buying a stadium. He said, no, the money would be better spent on charity. The interview, I think Souhan, laughed, and Pohlad said he was beign serious. Well, maybe the taxpayers of Hennepin County mayhave preferred their money go to charity,,
Maybe Johan was not the best person to spring that money on, but he could have gone out to get a power hitter
If the Twins keep doing that when they are in a new stadium you can complain all you want. For now they are at the dome.
Good to see Kevin is back and as in form (and uninformed) as ever.
Here’s the beauty of the “Pohlad’s Cheap and We Paid for the Stadium” (TM) argument.
It’s a no-lose. No matter WHAT the Twins do you can always whip that out on a moments notice for whatever reason.
Ignore the thrylos and Kevin’s at this time. With the season ending yesterday the knee-jerks will be out in full force for the next few weeks or so.
They’ll crawl back into their holes by the end of the postseason, and then poke their heads out to whine regardless of who the Twins do/don’t sign.
I don’t know about you guys but I slept like a baby last nite….(woke up every 3 hours and cried.)
LOL
Izzy, I was forced to take bereavment leave from work. I’m in a deep state of morning.
All black today, laying flowers at the base of the Dome. 
And because these are the types of things Howard likes to post:
The Upside:
1) Hunter, Ortiz, Bartlett, and AJ can fight over who’s the best ex-Twin.
2) Garza doesn’t get a chance to win his first game at the Dome…against the Twins.
3) No longer forced to sit through endless amounts of FrankTV commericials on TBS.
4) People who cry “Season’s over!” can finally stop looking funny.
5) With the Twins eliminated, we now have a month or so of distraction free time to decide who will be the new Nick Punto if his contract is not renewed.
6) With all of the infighting in Chicago, maybe a few bruised egos mean Orlando Cabrera could be available.
7) Twins may never have to worry about Thome after yesterday (class guy, but his bat is fear)
Now have two reasons to root for Tampa, and won’t have to feel guilty about either.
9) Nick Blackburn pitched his best game of the season in the biggest game of the season.
10) An unusual series of injury situations lead to the resurgance of Span and Casilla in 2008.
11) If Mijares is for real, Neshek may not have as much pressure to return earlier than needed.
12) The following contracts are expiring this season: Crain, Reyes, Redmond, Punto, Guardado …Guerrier? Plenty of opportunities to shed some contracts and perhaps fix the bullpen better than the silver bullet “One-Arm” everybody thinks will do it.
13) Plan to rebuild is ahead of schedule. OF is set, DH isn’t as big a problem anymore (Kubel/Cuddyer vs. Tyner is a huge upgrade). Holes are SS/2B (depending on Casilla) and 3B (though Harris would be a great bench option)
That’s what I’ve got to start, but I thought it would be great to get some kick off points to talk about something other than the same boring loop we’ve seen after every loss this season.
Brewers are down now 2-0 what were they thinking starting a pitcher who just came off injury and is on a pitch count? Seem like a bad idea and so far it is.
Well once we’re done with monetary instrument flipping issues, we get past the “Pohland is cheap so the Twins will never be good” diatribe. put away the “Why did we have to pay for a stadium” whining, and get a good laugh out of the “trade Morneau, sign ManRam and fire Gardy” nonsense, we’ll hopefully be able to have some reasonable discussions about what actually CAN be done to improve this team next year. For example, we can think about:
-Will Punto be re-signed and, if so, for what amount and envisioning what role?
-What will BS do about Kubel? I believe he’s entering that last year of arbitration where the Twins generally either sign a guy to multiple years or trade him while he still has value. Which will be Kubel’s fate?
-Are all four OFs brought back?
-Will the rotation be left intact or will one or more be used to improve the team elsewhere… if so, which prospects will be given the opportunity to be next year’s Nick Blackburn?
-What will Boof’s role be, if any, with the Twins?
-The Twins arguably have a very bright future… will a type A FA or two decide they want to be part of that future and, if so, will the Twins use some of their available payroll room to sign them?
A lot of reasonable discussion topics to have, but first you have to set aside the outrageous and bitter comments. Maybe we can establish Mondays and Wednesdays for whining and people who want to do that can do it on days when the rest of us just know not to bother coming around.
one comment:
Cheap A$$ Carl:
Please spring for a power hitter, I have been saying this for years, and all we get our rondell white, Craig Monroe, et al,, (who was that guy two years ago they brough in towards the end of the season?)
Has anyone considered the fact that the Padres lost a one game playoff last year and the following year they were horrible? What makes us so sure it won’t happen to us?
Also, we have to worry about the possibility that maybe the Twins overachived and some of their stats (run scoring) will come back down to earth and maybe some of these players had career years.(Gomez, Span,)
What makes you so sure it will just because the Padres had a bad year? Twins are not the Padres.
you can have all your comments you want,, the bottom line is this team needs a power hitter, I have been saying this for years, and it became painfully more obvious last night
The people who want to over engineer the situation here and play GM wannabes like Cricket and T are wasting their time,,, its not that hard, spring some money, sign a power hitting, preferablyl 3rd baseman, but if not, DH
“its not that hard, spring some money, sign a power hitting, preferablyl 3rd baseman, but if not, DH”
Sounds simple. Now… which power hitting 3Bs are hitting the FA market this winter? For that matter, which potential DHs that would meet the Twins’ needs are on the market?
These are millionaires playing a silly child’s game.
I’m sure when the Steroid Stadium opens it will be filled with world series banners, borrowed from another team.
What a waste.
Roy Smalley makes comments after the FSN games that are so insightful and helpful about hitting that even I understand them. How bout a new hitting coach for starters, one who doesn’t take the one or two power hitters we may have and teach them then the “Twins way” (to hit like little bee-yatches??
If it was so silly we wouldn’t be fans and they would not be millionares.
Just a reminder Twins had the 3rd highest runs scored…
Well thanks to MLBtraderumors.com, we can take a peek at all the power hitters that BS will be able to stalk in the off-season… since Kevin seems to think it’s so easy to find a 3B or DH to fill this need, let’s check out the available FAs (2009 age in parens):
Third basemen
Rich Aurilia (37)
Casey Blake (35)
Hank Blalock (28) - $6.2MM club option for ‘09 with a $0.25MM buyout
Willie Bloomquist (31)
Aaron Boone (36)
Russell Branyan (33)
Craig Counsell (38)
Joe Crede (31)
Nomar Garciaparra (35)
Wes Helms (33) - $3.75MM club option for ‘09
Mark Loretta (37)
Fernando Tatis (34)
Ramon Vazquez (32)
DHs
Milton Bradley (31)
Pat Burrell (32)
Adam Dunn (29)
Cliff Floyd (36) - $2.75MM club option for ‘09 with a $0.25MM buyout
Jason Giambi (38) - $22MM club option for ‘09 with $5MM buyout
Vladimir Guerrero (33) - $15MM club option for ‘09 with a $3MM buyout
Raul Ibanez (37)
Manny Ramirez (37)
Juan Rivera (30)
Mike Sweeney (35)
Frank Thomas (41)
Jose Vidro (34)
Who should be on the Twins’ shopping list?
Here’s the deal with free agent sluggers: the few that are worthy of a paycheck are grossly overpaid, which is something the Twins (and any smart team) won’t do. That’s why Torii went to the Caliheim Angels of LA. That’s why we’re not going to go after Teixeira (look at the numbers - he’s not that much better than Morneau, at least not $4 million a year more based on salaries this year), Manny, or any others. The Twins could drop a bunch of money on a big slugger but the production will not be worth the money. Look at Adam Dunn - Morneau smoked him across the board for $4.5 million less. Manny? More home runs, but 8 fewer RBIs than Morneau for $11.5 million more and he’s completely worthless on defense. Yes, it would be nice to get someone to protect Morneau in the lineup. Maybe Delmon Young can assert himself there - the guy is only 23 and has two years of experience. That’s why the Twins traded for him. It would be nice to have Beltre batting in the #5 slot, but his production the past few years has been a joke: sure, he may hit some home runs, but he’s passed 90 RBIs in a season ONLY TWICE IN HIS CAREER. He’s surpassed 30 home runs ONLY ONCE. For a career average (based on a 162-game season), Beltre only bats .271-25-89. Morneau averages .281-29-116. Dunn? .247-40-96. Manny? .314-41-133, which is better than Morneau, but again he can’t play defense, is a clubhouse problem, and is obviously overpaid.
What it boils down to is this: people want home runs, but home runs are not the answer, just a sexy strip tease. How many games did the White Sox win this year when they didn’t hit a home run? The stat I saw recently was something like 8. Eight freakin’ games. How many did the Twins win without hitting a home run? A lot more. Dingers usually don’t win games. Yes, they can be the disappointing difference (ahem, Tuesday, ahem), but if that’s what you rely on, then you’re screwed.
On to a different topic. The reason why they had to go by coin flip instead of winning percentage was because both the Twins and White Sox finished behind Boston. The rules state that if two teams are tied for the division lead, if they have a winning percentage lower than any of the other second-place teams in the league (in this case, Boston) then they flip a coin for home field in a playoff. If the two teams finish with a higher winning percentage than all second-place teams in the league (in other words, one would win the wild card) the first tiebreaker goes to the team with the highest winning percentage in head-to-head competition. This year, if they had both beaten Boston, the Twins won the season series 10-8 and would have won the division with the White Sox getting the wild card.
hey,
whoever is sponsoring delmon young’s BB-REF page, i think you need to update your “ad” (http://www.baseball-reference.com/y/youngde03.shtml) it seems as if “baseball purgatory” has won the hardest division in sports to win if your team is not located in NY or BOS…….. and will continue to roll over the lowly whitesox.
My choice would be Adam Dunn
Just a note, TwinFan. Gomez and Span having career years? I suppose that’s pretty easy to say when it was Span’s first season and Gomez’s first full season in the majors (he played 58 games with the Mets in ‘07).
Hey, look! Brian Bass had a career year!
look, I know power hitters are grossly overpaid. All ballplayers are grossly overpaid for that matter.
But thats the market. Overall, the Twins make good use of what they have, but there are games when small ball does not work, and a power hitter can win one with one swipe of the bat, then they become very valuable. Would I rather have Morneau than Dunn? Of course, but its not an either or thing.
The White Sox depend too much on power, but the Twins have little power, and in order to be a championship team, they need it. If you are not going to go do what it takes to get it, then jsut say so, and admit we will be bound for medicority, mabye contending for playoffs now and then, but never getting far in them.
I think Dunn would be an interesting topic for discussion. Can you put up with all those rally killing Ks? Are you ready to say you have a full time DH that will not and can not play defense? Does that mean Kubel is traded? What kind of financial package is it going to take to sign Dunn, is he worth that money, and will it be significantly more than you’re paying your existing “stars” and piss off the rest of the clubhouse? Does that matter?
All fair questions.
Howard, is it possible to update your blog title with “and if you are even thinking about (unmentionable), please don’t. It has been trying to die a dignified death for over 7 hours and just keeps rising from the ashes like a phoenix.”
The trouble is with as many posts as you’ve had people skip everything already said and keep bringing up (unmentionable4).
I’d take Adam Dunn as well, but at about $7 million a year, which is about half of what he’s going to make as a free agent. He either hits home runs or strikes out and is mediocre at best on defense. Cripes, for that money, I’d rather have Cuddyer and use the difference to sign some of the other young guys to extensions (at least save it up to offer to Span, Mauer, etc. after the 2009 season).
the point is, last night, and other nights, the Sox won a game when nothign else was clicking, and the Twins did not.
We cant count on Morneau and Mauer to click all the time. We cant count on the little guys to do their thing.
Thing I don’t like about Dunn is that he is another LH batter. If at all possible we need a righty!!!!
yes Cricket, fair questions all.
But, at the end of the day, I think we need a power hitter, even one who Ks a lot.
This was a most un-Twins like year with the at times extremely shoddy defense. Thought that used to be a point of pride under old TK. Ball hit to the outfield: hold your breath. Ball to hit to the infield: ditto. Esp. with LNP hotdogging every grounder.
Milton, you’d have to hire Ron Washington also. He’s the only one who seems to be able to keep his emotions in check.
Sure Kevin (and others)… but that’s my point. You won’t see anyone around here who doesn’t agree that the Twins need another power hitter (or three). But it isn’t until you look around at reasonable options that you realize how few there are if all you want to do is open the purse strings to buy one this off season.
The reality is that most of the FA power hitters are going to get some team to overpay for their production and I don’t think the Twins will ever be a team that does that. That means, you have to consider making trades to get the power… and now you’re asking what you’re willing to give up to get it. Quality requires quality in return.
Definitely look for a RH power guy. After the Sox unexpectedly grandslammed the Tigers Monday, all I could think was….gee 1 swing, 4 runs. That would have taken us 16 bloops and 5 errors by the other team to push those runs across.
If they sign Dunn, they almost have to trade Kubel…
Re: Dunn and Ks: His OBP last year was .386, that would put him 3rd in the Twins’ team with .001 less than Span.
Another source would be the Asian players. Twins and other teams without ever signing an Asian player are becoming minority more and more each year. And I’m not talking about the superstars whose home teams demand a ransom before you can even talk to them. If I’m wrong somebody set me straight, but I’m thinking of the Iwamuras and Choo-Choo with the Tribe.
Now here’s an interesting thought. The Rangers are planning on exercising Hank Blalock’s $6.2 million option for 2009. But they’re going to keep Chris Long at first. When he’s healthy (maybe being a DH would keep him so) he can put up around 30 HRs and 90+ RBIs. He’d be good protection for Morneau at a Twins sticker price. Big question: what would the Twins have to give up for him?
Once again Twins have scored 3rd most in runs sop stop with the 16 bloops to get a couple of runs crap.
Seriously. Howard needs to ban these tired arguments that the whiners bring up over and over. It is tiresome.
Big Jimmy, any Twins pitching prospect would probably do it. (LOL)
P.S. I mean any prospect…I’m not sure the Rangers would even recognize a good pitcher if they saw one.
JC: Do you think recent comments by Cabrera and Ozzie are signs he won’t be resigned at the end of 08?
With that in mind, do you think he could be convinced to come to Minnesota? He seemed to respect the way they play. So what would it take to go to him and say “How would you like to be a part of that?”
As far as your DH/3B list. The only name that jumps out at me is Crede (injury problems)
That DH list pretty much reads like the menu at a fancy French restaurant. Good luck getting anything of value off that list once the dust clears.
Except maybe Thomas or Sweeney, both of which would be mistakes. (Oakland was SO smart to sign both of them…what were the Twins thinking letting those two get away *eyeroll*)
Here’s another though: Twins killer Raul Ibanez. He bats left, but if you bat Young fifth and Ibanez sixth, that can still provide protection. He’s a 20+ HR guy with 100+ RBI. And he bats right and could be available at a reasonable price ($6-$7 million) if he’s willing to leave Seattle.
Well Nora, have to disagree with you on this one. When the ball goes over the fence, there is zero chance of a GIDP. When the ball goes over the fence, you don’t have to rely on maybe two or three other guys to get hits also so the guy(s) on base can move over and in. No one so far has asked/wished for 3 or more power hitters. We’re just asking for one, two would be heaven. It was widely said, widely accepted, and IMHO correct, that a team BA of .300+ with RISP is difficult to sustain, ESPECIALLY when power challenged.
Beisbol, I had the same thought about the Rangers and their throwing staff (not a pitching staff, a throwing staff).
Maybe a Danny Graves for Blalock swap.
T, if Crede could be cleared by docs as not ongoing health risk, he would be my #1. I didn’t even realize he was just 31. Another class guy (guess the Whities have enough class guys to offset AJ and Buehrle), great defense, no need to mention how many HRs he teed off the Twins this year!
Of course if the docs cleared him I’m sure Williams/Ozzie would grab him or bar the door.
Good topics by the way JC:
-Will Punto be re-signed and, if so, for what amount and envisioning what role?
I really don’t want to say this, but I think Punto has value off the bench. The only problem is if the Twins can cut his salary enough to reflect it. I’d say let Punto hit the FA market, if nobody signs him come back with a invite as a bench optin.
-What will BS do about Kubel? I believe he’s entering that last year of arbitration where the Twins generally either sign a guy to multiple years or trade him while he still has value. Which will be Kubel’s fate?
Span threw a wrench in the works, as did Cuddy’s fluke foot injury. Kubel was inconsistent this year, but showed more power out of the DH spot than we’ve seen in a few years (Kubel vs. Tyner…night and day) I wouldn’t actively try to trade him, but I would listen if teams inquire.
If he’s brought back, it will be as the Twins full-time DH. So if the Twins make a trade or sign somebody who looks to fit this role, expect Kubel to be gone shortly thereafter.
-Are all four OFs brought back?
Young and Span are locks. If the Twins deal Cuddy/Kubel somehow, then Gomez returns as the starting CF.
But I wouldn’t be surprised if the Twins look at using Cuddyer back in RF and Span in CF, with Gomez either being the 4th option, providing flexibility and speed off the bench.
-Will the rotation be left intact or will one or more be used to improve the team elsewhere… if so, which prospects will be given the opportunity to be next year’s Nick Blackburn?
Baker and Liriano are locks. If Blackburn can work on the mental aspect he’ll be in there as well. But he Slowey, and Perkins are likely touchable for the right offer.
-What will Boof’s role be, if any, with the Twins?
I get this feeling Boof’s time is up. He struggled in the rotation and was inconsistent out of the ‘Pen. He’s still young, and has shown promise in the past. Twins will likely try to move him while there’s still value (instead of letting him turn into a Lohse/Romero/Rincon)
-The Twins arguably have a very bright future… will a type A FA or two decide they want to be part of that future and, if so, will the Twins use some of their available payroll room to sign them?
I’ve mentioned Orlando Cabrera a few times. He’s on the record as respecting what the Twins do…and was then ripped by his coach. I could see him being swayed provided there isn’t too much of a bidding war. I guess that depends on the SS market.
Maybe we can establish Mondays and Wednesdays for whining and people who want to do that can do it on days when the rest of us just know not to bother coming around.
That’s got my vote. Heck, we could hand the keys to a blog to a few of them so they could have their own “Whiners Blog”. 24/7 all whining all the time.
Jimmy: I think Ibanez will be one of the DHs that sets the market next season.
Giambi won’t be back in New York, so they’ll be looking. And Ortiz is fading, so Boston may also be involved.
I wouldn’t be surprised if he, Dunn, and Bradley end up getting MONSTER contracts, which throw the rest of the DH signings out of whack.
I hate my team right now.
Count me in on voting yes for setting up a Cheese & Whine blog on specified days and/or times.
Bernie, you’re back. Aw, what’s wrong, your mighty team got you down???
lets trade for Hafner,, hes an upper midwest boy,,,
I realize that is not easy to do, but thats my point,, at some point, this team needs to change its philosophy where it is willing to overpay for a key cog, or get rid of some future talent
Delmon Young can be Power Hitter #1 if the Twins coaches A) teach him not to swing at the first pitch and B) let him swing away.
Then it’s up to the front office to find hitter #2.
The Twins do need to find a big bat (preferrable a 3B), but cost (see, e.g., Batista, Tony and Lamb, Mike) will prevent them from obtaining anyone who is actually good. There will be no good free agent acquisitions nor acquisitions by trade who will make a difference in the everyday line up. We cannot rely on the club hitting .306 w/ RISP again. If a big bat is not added, the offense will regress. We’ve seen what Kubel is capable of; decent but nothing remarkable. Ditto with Cuddyer, and he actually seems to be regressing when he actually plays (3 HR’s, really?). Young still has roome to improve, but Mauer and Morneau cannot be expected to carry much more of the load. In addition, the bullpen needs beefing up. Unless the FO changes its attitude this winter (unlikely), don’t expect better results. I’m usually not this negative, but that .306 avg w/ RISP was the club’s chance to catch lightning in a bottle. It is highly unlikely to happen again next year.
Big Jimmy, same can be applied to several Twins hitters. Hitting the ball the other way is a great way to get out of a slump or correct some bad swing habits but you can’t beat turning and hitting the ball the other way for power. Uggla’s philosophy, even little itzy bitty Pedroia, he pulls the ball with all his might.
It just drives me crazy to see the Grandersons, Sorianos, ARamirez’s of the world whip around and bop that ball outta here and big, strapping JMauer tries it a few times this year and says it ruined his swing. And he’s missed a few big bops by mere feet this year.
is that the answer? trying to turn some of our hitters into power hitters? I would guess we dont want to mess with mauer, but there has to be something in why this organization has such little power
Exhibit A is Ortiz,,,, he claims they did not let him hit the way he wanted to here and who knows? But the results looks to be supportive of his point
Good points, T. Although on Ibanez I could see him going for less. He signed a 2-year, $11 million deal for 2007-08. He’s also 36 and flies under the radar. I agree completely with Bradley and Dunn setting the market, with Ibanez behind them. I could see Ibanez being offered not much more than a 2-year, $16 million deal at best. Bradley and Dunn are much younger, and Dunn isn’t going to take less than what he’s being overpaid already. Bradley was playing for a contract this year, so he’s going to follow the money as well. But I don’t think Ibanez goes the same way. He’s played for two small-market, low-budget teams (Royals and Mariners), which tells me he’s either going to re-up with the Mariners or sign for a more reasonable contract in a small market. He’s not going to bolt because of a giant contract offer, which means he’s not going to the pressure cooker of a big team like Boston, no matter what the price. Therefore, he’s a likely option IF (and that’s a 50-foot-tall “if”) he elects to leave Seattle. My bet is he doesn’t unless the brain trust out there screws up worse than signing Silva.
T, I’d be all for making a run at Cabrera. You hear a lot about this guy or that guy having “bad attitudes” or being “bad clubhouse guys”, but I think that stuff is overblown.
It would certainly add to the entertainment value of the Twins/BitchSox rivalry to have Cabrera and (a hopefully healthy) Crede forming the left side of the infield next year.
Nora,
I am a die hard white sox fan and i think you need to give your team more credit than you do. The Pirannahs are better than the White Sox we know this in Chicago. They played their hearts out just wasnt to be. But it wasnt a coin flip or home field advantage. This loss goes to the GM. No money no team. You guys have the best farm system for major leaguers but having one or two good veterans on team thats battle tested. Priceless. We love the rivalry and better luck next year.
One more thing to consider, then I’m heading out…
This is the first time in for as long as I can remember when a Twins GM has had money to spend going in to the FA season. The Twins are going to be WELL under their target of 52% of revenue for a payroll and that means that unlike any other year, Smith already knows he has money to spend.
Last year, he didn’t know he was going to be running below budget on payroll until the Santana fiasco was resolved. He had to hold back during the FA season as long as there was any chance, no matter how remote, that Santana might be signable or that the Twins might decide to keep him through his last contract year.
There’s no reason to shop at the bargain basement this year like there has been… well… for as long as I can recall. The question is whether the Twins can break themselves of the habit and whether there are higher level FAs out there interested in playing for Minnesota.
Should be interesting to find out.
Nice article, but your admiration for Gardy is so absurd, not to mention cliche as hell in this town.
How do we know what another manager might have done with this group? The team certainly didn’t surprise me. What surprised me was the collapse of Detroit and Cleveland. Otherwise, this team precisely what I, and others, thought they capable of. (You’re free to check out the archives in April for proof.)
With that said, Ron Gardenhire isn’t a good manager; he didn’t make this team. What he did, in reality, is piss away no less than 11 road games this year with ill-advised micromanagement, especially of the bullpen, and some absolutely ridiculous pinch hitting and defensive replacement decisions.
I have an idea. Let’s ship Gardy to Pittsburgh, give the reigns to Scotty or one of the Cliburn brothers, and let’s SEE how everything turns out–let’s SEE how “good” Gardy really is. I GUARANTEE you Pittsburgh remains worthless while the Twins get noticeably better. (After all, it is Gardy that insists on all these veteran bums being signed in the off-season.)
This system has a ton of talent. These players are taught the game, the right way, in the minors. But, when they get up here, they’re forced to deal with a manager that hates to teach because he’s never had to “teach; he’s NEVER, not for one day, managed at the minor league level.
It’s the system, Howard. It has NOTHING to do with Gardy. He’s more overrated than Nick Punto himself. A change would demonstrate that loud and clear.
BTW: With almost a half-a-billion in taxpayer dollars going into a new ballpark, you’d BETTER raise your level of “expectations” a bit, my friend. This little train that could in an “itsty-bitsy, teeny-weenie market” vibe is getting old.
BTW: Twins are not in the new ballpark yet.
Yeah, JimC, the club has money to spend, but they’d rather spend oh, say, roughly $15 million on Mike Lamb, Adam Everett, Craig Monroe, and Livan Hernandez than on a legitimate hitter who makes the club better. Neither Lamb nor Monroe had ever won a full time big league job. Everett had at least done that, but he is a one-dimensional player (btw, his weakness was the club’s weakness). And Livan had a huge ERA the last few years in NL. Disaster with these signings was predictable. Last off season was not an anomaly (Batista, Ponson, etc.). Expect more of the same.
yea, Boneyard, unfortunately you are probably correct
the money theyve wasted on these retreads may have gotten them one decent player for a year,,,,, rondell white has to be on the top of that list
I do my best to forget Rondell. But in the interest of full disclosure . . .
How do we know what another manager might have done with this group?
How do we know that Adrian Beltre or LaTroy “Somebody Wants Me?” Hawkins would’ve been the Silver Bullet?
Give it up. You don’t like Gardy and think Pohlad’s a cheapskate.
Here’s your medal now go take some time to come up with an original thought and actual factual evidence vs. “My opinino is more valid than yours because I say so.”
The Twins didn’t win the division and the coin flip is a fair way to decide one game. If you don’t want to play one extra game then win one more game in the regular season. Games in March count as much as games in September. If you remember AJ won a game because he was caught in a run down and the Rays shortstop bumped his arm. He was awarded 3rd base and then scored the winning run. Win one more game and you win the division or win one more game and tie the division and then play the extra game and win that. The White Sox won the division and all you have to watch now is the Vikings. Yuck! It’s time to get the fishing shanty ready for winter and sit on one of the 10,000 lakes and continue to complain about a coin flip. The White Sox fans sure made alot of noise and the Black Out was a very cool idea, perhaps we can spend the extra time thinking of something cool to do for next year, like blowing a horn. Oh wait we do that already and it’s tough to blow your own horn when are watching the playoffs from home, again.
Additional note -
2008: Twins extend contracts of Cuddyer, Moreneau, Nathan. While also dealing pitching for a much needed RH bat.
Feel free to gloss over that fact with whatever “My opinion is better than yours” comeback you want.
Hindsight bias and second-guessing are welcome as well.
Quotes from a recent AP article (out half an hour ago) about the Twins loss:
Cuddyer:
“It kind of stings a little bit. It kind of hurts a little bit,
And he is not talking about his foot, he is talking about the loss to the White Sox.
A LITTLE BIT? Just A LITTLE BIT
if the man who supposedly is a leader in the clubhouse and stunk up the place with his performance this season after signing a multimillion multiyear contact to the rate of $140,000 per RBI he got, has this kind of attitude, who is going to expect hustle and not a September collapse from this team?
methinks Cuddy needs more than a little bit kick on the butt.
Big Jimmy: Do you think Seattle will sign Ibanez? I get the feeling that after the FO fumbled the trade deadline they’ll look to set things right by cleaning house (Beltre, Ibanez, Washburn?) this offseason.
JC: I haven’t heard anything bad about Cabrera, just Ozzie’s comments the last few days. (Though admittedly who HASN’T Ozzie ripped in the last few days?)
The comments from Cabrera after the Twins swept them sounded like he really respected the team…and I would say hinted he’d want to be in an environment like that.
And, yes, it would be awesome to have a Cabrera/Crede tandem (provided Crede’s healthy) to come back at the Sox with in ‘08.
T,
Crede is awful on the field. Believe it or not his fielding this year was worse than Buscher’s and lifetime he is a .257/.306/.447 hitter… If they don’t pull a trade, I’d rather see them go after Casey Blake for 3B.
The Twins scored the third highest number of runs in team history. The hitting is more than adequate. The fielding and pitching could use attention.
one thing i have to say about morneau. he was slumping so bad because he was trying so hard to please twins fans after chanting MVP for the last 5 home games. he just couldnt produce under those expectations/pressure
From the 2 biggest Twins fans in Northern Illinois! (my son and I).
We didn’t try for tickets last night, we opted to watch together in the basement. We are bummed. Didn’t think it would mean this much once we lost, thought I could shake it off.
But now the Cubs are playing Dodgers and Sox are talking like they will now take the whole enchilada, while we are taking a bit of guff.
I told my co-workers and those offering condolences at work: Just 1 pitch! That was the difference.
The Cubs are talking about how they felt when they got swept by the D-Backs 3 straight last year and how it stayed with them for 1 year.
Maybe these Twins will keep this loss in the back of their minds…and build off it.
I Love the Twins.
From the Old Met Stadium at Knot Hole Gang Day, to sometimes being the only 2 MN fans wearing Twins gear at US Cellular!!! That, I think, is saying something. Always rooting them on!!!!
T - I could see Seattle bringing back Ibanez if the price is right. If Seattle is willing to offer him 2 years/$14 million, I bet he stays. He’s well-worth a price like that. Beltre? Nope. Hi Ho Silva? Nope. Washburn? Nope. But Ibanez has lived up to his contract. But I could see him ending up here if Kubel was moved.
Maybe the Twins think Buscher is the answer at 3B. He did show a little pop in the bat and drove in 47 runs in only 218 at-bats. With some defensive work and some honing of his hitting, he might be serviceable. That would put him about average in all of MLB.
As far as Gardy being a lousy manager, you’re dead wrong, Lala. He has to be better than Joe Girardi or Jim Leyland based on the results this season. He is one of the most respected managers in the game, and I’d be willing to bet at least half of the teams out there would rather have him at the helm than their current manager.
A LITTLE BIT? Just A LITTLE BIT
What do you people want from this team? Now you gotta rip the quotes apart?
Oh my god he said “a little” instead of breaking down into hysterics. Christ…
For MVP, I’ll go with Barty. Why not? He turned that Rays team around along with Garza. He played the hell out of SS, and that won it for them. Give credit to the glove.
Sheez, I go away to get some things done, vote that Justin’s bat or lack thereof was reason #1 and find voters, I assume mostly Twins fans, are still blaming the unmentionable flip through the air. That is the upper limit of my tolerance even though I griped a bit about the unfairness. At least I never said that was the reason for the loss.
The Twins would have won by a large margin if it wasn’t for the penurious owners. Stadium cost overruns had them cutting back on player payroll. It will be worse next season. More cuts.
Do you think the Twins’ moderate success hurt them this year? By that, I mean do you think Smith and Pohlad will sit on their hands this offseason because “look what the current team did?”
I sure hope not, but I’d say it’s 50/50 that it happens. To me, Pohlad is one of the worst owners in baseball. His teams have won divisions on accident, because they were all thrown-together teams that came together and played hard. All the credit in the world to the guys between the foul lines, none to the management.
Craig: Bartlett isn’t even the MVP of his own team. Evan Longoria, Grant Balfour, and Matt Garza did more for the Rays than Bartlett.
Maybe amoung the players on the Rays he’s the sentimental favorite…but that’s not what makes a league MVP.
To the person who listed contract expirations for this season: There is a club option for 2009 on Mike Redmond. Do the Twins really have anybody ready to come up and be the backup to Mauer? Last year’s top prospect had to have ankle surgery.
I hope they resign Punto (obviously). As much as everyone likes to bash him, who would have filled in during Everett’s injury, and Casilla’s injury, and Tolbert’s injury…. There isn’t anyone on the team who can play all the positions he can at a high level.
And lo, he came down from the mountain carrying tablets made of stone. And on those tablets were writings, handed down to him from Pohl(or)d himself.
And Punto stood before his people, words in hand, and spoke these 10 commandments to thee.
I. I am your shortstop Nick Punto, you shall hate no other players before me.
II. Thou shall worship the one arm, and the one bat, for they are the one true fix to all problems.
III. Thou shall manipulate sample sizes to prove thy argument.
IV. Thou shall never believe that which is spake by those in the front office, unless those words can be used to support thy argument.
V. Thou shall never honor thy winning team. The opposition shall win because the we let it be so, and we shall win despite our attempts otherwise.
VI. Only coaches and players in thy favor shall be responsible their success. All others shall only be “getting lucky.”
VII. Only we players thou hatest shall be responsible for our failings, as well the failings of those players thou favor.
VIII. There shall never be a number 8. For it is my number, and thus is sacred.
IX. Thou shall bear obvious solutions only after thy solutions are made obvious.
X. Thou shalt covet thy opponent’s players unless they become thy own.
PR: You’re right about Redmond. Twins don’t have anybody ready this year. They limited his time quite a bit this year comparred to 2007. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Redmond get phased out even more in 09. By the end of the year we’ll likely know who the backup will be going forward.
T: I was at the game in Tampa when they secured a post season berth by beating the Twins. Before the game, the Tampa/St. Pete Baseball Writers Association gave the MVP to Bartlett.
The Tampa/St. Pete scribes got it right.
I don’t see any player in the playoffs who was truly outstanding this year. Maybe K-Rod. I’ll go with Barty. His glove got the Rays there. He’s the man. League MVP.
For me, this season proved one thing: the Twins plan to compete for the 2010 has been pushed up one year. Honestly, the 2008 season was a season to figure out what we had. I was happy to see the Twins did not chose to lock up $25 million per year in Santana and $15 million per year in Hunter, because now they have room to build this off season.
We found a legitimate Second Baseman (Casilla) a solid Outfielder (Span) and a Center fielder with a lot of promise (Gomez). That makes for an exciting 1-2-9 hitting lineup. Mauer and Morneau had solid years as expected, locking up First base and Catcher, and the 3-4 spots. As usual, the Twins have a wealth of slightly above average infielders that can platoon Shortstop and Third base. Punto proved to be valuable this year, with very solid defense and a decent batting average. Young was expected to do more, but his numbers were consistent with last year; I like Young in the 7 spot. The pitching rotation is the most solid its been in years. Nathan proved his worth. Crain struggled, but he just came off arm surgery. Mijares looks exciting and seems ready to take over for Reyes.
What does all this mean for the 2009 season? Well, the Twins need someone to play Third with power. The Twins need a legitimate DH. Kubel had a good year, but he is best used as a 3/4 time backup outfielder/DH. The Twins will win the Division if they can get:
Third baseman with Power ($8-12 million per year)
A solid DH ($10-15 million per year)
Veteran Pitcher out of the bullpen ($4-6 million per year)
The Twins 2007 payroll was $72 million. Their 2008 payroll was $62 million. There is no reason why the Twins shouldn’t be near $80-85 million in 2009.
Again, the 2008 Twins pushed ahead one year the Twins’ ultimate plan of having a contending team for the opening of Target Field. Now maybe, the Twins will open Target Field in 2010 with at least the Central Division Champion Minnesota Twins.
First off, thanks to Howard, LEN III 7 Joe for all your great Twins coverage this season!
A couple of items that I didn’t see in readers comments:
1) What troubles me about Mauer’s bunt attempt is what it says about his mindset that needs to be tweaked for the teams sake. Mauer needs to see himself as a run producer not a table setter. Doesn’t mean he has to suddenly start swinging for the fences everytime up but when you trail by a run in the biggest game of the year, you have killed the pitcher over your career and the guy behind you is in a slump so bad he couldn’t hit water if he fell out of boat, you need to be thinking drive the ball hard and maybe it gets out. If Tony O can teach Puckett how to hit for power and he still wins a batting title over Wade Boggs I think it’s ok for you Joe to try and add that to your aresenal.
Trade Kubel and a prospect for a good reliever or a right handed bat. You need RH sticks so let Cuddy DH/4th OF/backup 1st. He’ll get plenty of Ab’s and Gardy likes versatility and Cuddy can do that, Kubel can’t.
The comment someone made about small ball and the Twins way having won WS titles in ‘87 & 91 that way made me think of something: while pitching and good defense were keys to the succcess of those teams… they actually did not play small ball or Twins offense as we now know it. ‘87 Kirby, Bruno, Herbie, G-Man, Don Baylor, Laudner all were free swinging power guys (or least gap & power guys). They weren’t moving runners over they were driving them in. Think of most of the big post season hits from the season…Herbie in Gm 6, Gladden Gm 1, Gagne Gm 2, G-Man the entire ALCS, Baylor & Bruno…most all were HR’s with a few extra base knocks thrown in. Gagne in Gm 7 is the only little one I can think of.
1991, while less than ‘87, was more of the same. Kirby Gm 6 HR & triple, Chilli Gm 3, Gladden Gm 1, Leius Gm Gm 2, Pags Gm 3 ALCS winnning HR, Kirby in Toronto and on and on. The Gm 7 winning run was small ball but that far and away the minority of how that team prodcued runs.
My point is this, the Twins haven’t won any WS titles with the small ball mantra and you’d be hard pressed to find a team that has since 1991. Watching today’s first round I’m reminded that power pitching (SP & RP) and patient Power hitting is what wins championships. Hits are hard to come by in the big games against the best pitchers. Work counts, take walks and the pop a big hit once or twice and you will more often than not.
The “Twins way” is more out of economic neccessity than a path to ultimate success. It’s an idea that can only hve ultinate success if power is in enough supply as well. A balance is best. Look at last night box scores and the proof lies within.
A humble suggestion for a differnt path to take the next day or two, in honor of Howard’s tutorial background how about seeing what grades you would give each of the main players this year, Gardy & Billy and a brief reason why?
And/or something Howard mentioned the other day, what you list as the 10 worst/toughest/crucial losses this season and conversly what were the Twins 10 biggest wins.
Just a thought for further non-coin flip, kill LNP discussion.
PS-I disagree with the suggestion that Torii wasn’t or isn’t clutch. Say what you want about the guy but 2nd half of ‘06 he killed it, 2003 at Yankee stadium in playoffs HR in extra’s for the lead that an out of gas Nathan couldn’t hold. Not to mention all the catches (except Oakland ‘06 Gm 2) and the playing thru pain. He wanted, loved and had plenty of success in the big games. That to me is clutch.
sometimes i wish the season lasted 11-1/2 months a year.
Mauer was striking out in earlier at bats. I just think he was trying anything to get on base. It did not work out.
Craig Bartlett is not even in the top 10 for MVP nor should he be.
Just some notes on some posts:
“Punto Rocks says:
October 1st, 2008 at 9:02 pm
T: I was at the game in Tampa when they secured a post season berth by beating the Twins. Before the game, the Tampa/St. Pete Baseball Writers Association gave the MVP to Bartlett.”
Bartlett was given MVP award by his TEAM only, they had a ceremony before the Rays played the Twins. They nominate a team MVP each year in the Rays org.
Texeira wants a 10 year deal (like A-Rod) and has stated this blatantly to the media. Hank Blalock is rumored to be a former steroids guy.
thrylos98 and Lala72 are bitchy, whiny trolls.
Lala72:
Let me educate you:
Pohlad allots 70% of the Twins revenue into payroll. That is high-but still a sound figure. It’s called a business plan and financial strategy. It’s good business. If the revenue goes up at the new Ball park(and it should; though not dramatically)the payroll goes up. That’s about as simple as I can explain to a troll like you. Class dismissed. Tomorrow: Why thrylos98 is actually AJ Pierzynski in disguise.
Before the game, the Tampa/St. Pete Baseball Writers Association gave the MVP to Bartlett.
I respect that, but I as an outsider looking in there are players on the Rays who contributed more.
I’m sure the Twins “MVP” would be far different if they chose one than if the fans and press did.
Here’s an interesting discussion to have…
Depending on what happens with Punto/Cuddyer/Kubel, is it possible that the lineup could be shuffled around to get Mauer back into #2?
I’m not trying to start up the “OMG Mauer isn’t a 3-hitter” discussion…but it looked like the Twins wanted to try that until Cuddyer’s injury screwed everything up early.
With Casilla and Span forming a solid 1-2 punch, it may be tougher to convince the organization that it’s an option.
You wouldn’t have Casilla at the top of the order, but if Punto doesn’t come back you’ve got a potential spot at the bottom with Gomez/Casilla/Span or Casilla/Gomez/Span wrapping around to Mauer/Morneau.
This says nothing of Casilla’s ability, and would average out to one less AB per game, but if the Twins are looking to invest/upgrade at the DH or 3B positions, they’re going to want the new guy to have as many opportunities to hit.
Other lineup discussions, has Young earned the right to be tried out in the 3 spot? Depending on roster moves I think it’s worth a look in Spring Training. I still believe potentially having either Span or Mauer on in front and Morneau behind him will lead to some better pitching.
As I said going into 2008, Morneau protects Young better than Young protects Morneau.
And if you’ve got Span or Mauer on, Young seeing better pitches…odds are somebody’s going to be on base for Morneau. And the more men on base when Morneau comes to the plate, the less likely they’re going to pitch around him (recent slump not included)
While Mauer is a great hitter, I think a solid power guy between them would help a lot. Twins didn’t have this option available in 2008, and it showed.
Plus it wouldn’t hurt to have less pressure on Mauer to swing for th fences vs. just swinging for hits like he is more comfortable doing.
Faithful, thanks for the education. Only one problem. Baseball’s NOT a business, its a game. And a hobby for millionaires. The same type of hobby as when you and I collected baseball CARDS. Throw some money at your hobby, don’t worry about the bottom line, but don’t go bankrupt. It’s just a GAME!
MudCat:
Baseball may be a game to you and I, but that’s because we can enjoy it without much investment on our part. (And no, you don’t HAVE to buy tickets to watch games. An no, your cable bill doesn’t count because its not exclusively baseball)
To the owner’s, they need to consider what level of investment will maximize their ability to not only put butts in the seats, but produce a level of competitiveness that’ll keep the hobby enjoyable for them.
And yes, you or I may collect baseball cards…but you and I don’t have millions of fans breathing down our necks if we decided to not spend $45 bucks for a Hunter card. Or have a number of people on a blog screaming at us when we decide to trade a Santana for a Gomez, Guerra, Humber, and Mulvey.
So no. Baseball is not a “hobby” by any means of the word. Because a hobby is something you enjoy on your own without any care for what others may think of it.
Also:
In before “We payed for the stadium”…
I just have to say this, fellow 220ers…
Amen to Patrick Reusse today.
Once again he proved why he is, without question, the best sports writer in this market.
That column absolutely needed to be written and thank goodness he stepped up to the plate and wrote it.
It’s not a bash on the Twins or the organization, we’re all very proud of what they accomplished. It’s a bash on a mindset–a mindset that if we fail, it’s not our faults. That’s precisely the mindset I and others were attempting to vocally discourage throughout our discussions yesterday.
Nice job, Mr. Reusse. Now we can move on to 2009.
Patrick Reusse is not the best sports writer. LOL
I guess if you agree with what he says you can think that but he is not. Angry rants are not my idea of good writing.
Twins missed alot of oppurtunities to put the Sox away earlier. Yes, but couldn’t the same be said for the White Sox? My point is neither team was any better then the other except for the final game (and not by much)–in Chicago.
This wasn’t an angry rant, Nora. Sure, there was probably some anger involved, but this is simply called making a point that had to be made.
Ask your parents what the better approach to life is–accountability or excuse-making?
This is a simple concept. I agree with Reusse, the idea that this topic was being thrown out there on the Twins post game show must have sparked some amount of flashing red lights in the minds of Coomer and Smalley–but as I said yesterday, we live in a different world today. We live in a talk radio / talk TV / blog-debate world where we can put any angle on any fact situation we want to.
Decent people should know better. They should know what the real story is…the real story is it was a fantastic game and we got beat. Not because Bud Selig wanted us to, or fans were wearing black t-shirts and swearing in the stands, or any other unforseen force of nature.
It should be as simple as that. We should be happy with what we accomplished, tip our hat to the other team, and move on. You think Pete Rose or Kirby Puckett would’ve said, “if only we played this one in the Metrodome, it would’ve been all ours…it’s just not fair.” I don’t think so.
Well, still don’t think it is fair. But it does not much matter. As the season series win the Twins had over the Sox. I just think that should mean something. MLB has ridiculous ways of deciding things. It’s a joke no matter what and I don’t think I am making excuses. Just stating a fact imo.
YES!! Reusse’s column was right on! all the whining from a MINORITY of Twin’s players that the monetary metal object flip cost them a trip to the playoffs not their choking down the stretch
seems like sour grapes from the players and some rubes..the Twin’s again had many chances to clinch the division long before the final day.. THEY lost the division.. a flip of chance did not beat them
” My point is neither team was any better then the other except for the final game (and not by much)–in Chicago”
careful Nora you have just admitted the White Sox beat the Twin not a flip of a metal object…
Didn’t the White Sox have many chances to clinch before the last game as well? I believe they did.
And I have to pile on Nora because I’m absolutely tired of hearing lines like this: “My point is neither team was any better then the other except for the final game”
That’s absolutely right. One final game. And in that one final game they were the better team, period. If it helps your grief therapy to assume it was only that way because of where the game was played, then I suppose we can refer you to a few psychologists. But I have news for you, Mauer swings and misses at the Dome too, and that HR that Thome hit…that one leaves the yard at 34 Kirby Puckett Place as well.
I feel your pain. I understand losing a close one hurts. But we lost. They earned it, we didn’t. End of story.
Now, while I praise Reusse today I want to move on to a former Strib columnist, who, on his afternoon radio show yesterday made the absurd claim that Michael Cuddyer should not have been sent home in the 5th inning.
Folks, that was a no-brainer. I put the percentages of him being thrown out somewhere between 35 and 40. Heck, Ken Griffey Jr. needed a two-hop throw to nail Cuddy and A.J. himself said he didn’t even know he had the ball in his glove. That’s a situation where the Twins have to force Chicago to make a play and unfortunately for us they did just that.
Actually I did not. Since at the dome I think it would have been a totally different story. LOL
Season series Twins won. I just feel that should count for more then it does. I don’t think it is wrong to question rules or to change them.
so Nora you are saying playing the game in C-Town wasn’t fair because the Twin’s lost.. maybe Nathan and the few other whining players should approach the union about playing all 163 games at the DOME next year, after all it’s the only way the Twins can make the playoff.. anything else is not fair!!
see how crazy and illogical that sounds but that is your opinion I guess..
So winning the season series should count for nothing? Guess we should just ignore record and pick teams out of a hat. Sounds illogical to me as well.
Fire, That is not what I said at all. But winning the season series matters in other sports. ESPN has even said that the team that wins the season series should get the right to play at home. Guess they are whiners as well.
ESPN said that to drum up rubes like you to watch them and increase ratings!! all year Twin’s nation rips ESPN now only now is ESPN all good!!
“winning the season series matters in other sports.”
guess what other sports have salary caps and unions that don’t have the game by it’s throat too!
it’s doesn’t matter what other sports are doing or your opinion that the regular season record should automatically allow the Twin’s into the playoffs.. the rules are the rules and BOTH teams played by them!!
and let’s not forget the Twin’s did not automatically forfeit Tuesday’s night game, they had just as good of a chance to win it as the White Sox!!! well maybe not because White Sox have players that can hit a mistake out of the park.. Twin’s don’t
Whatever, Fire. So there is no advantage to the home team in their own park. LOL
Here’s my take on the coin thing…for whatever it’s worth.
Yes, it sucks that the head-2-head record ended up amounting to nothing, especially after how hard fought the games were towards the end.
But there is NO way of stating for fact that the homefield advantage would’ve done it. We saw the homefield mean nothing for the Twins in 2006, and we saw it at the end of the 2008 season.
Heck, even Chicago put it’s best attempts to piss away their shot in the final homestand.
So yes, complain about how dumb of an idea the coinflip is. It’s just as dumb as the All-Star Game deciding World Series homefield.
But don’t complain about it like that’s what lost the Twins the game.
What lost the game was Jim Thome blasting a moonshot into centerfield. And he’s just as capable of doing that in the Dome as he is at the Cell.
But please, don’t group those who think the coinflip is a dumb idea with those who think the coinflip cost the Twins the game. That’s just getting into the same generalization problems that plauge this board enough as it is.
How did that HR advantage work for the Sox when they were in the dome? Not to well.
1-8
2-7
Sox and Twins records at each others parks. Not good odds for either team on the road.
How did that HR advantage work for the Sox when they were in the dome? Not to well.
How well did that Homefield advantage work out for the Twins against KC?
Or for Chicago against Cleveland?
maybe this will help smooth over this discussion (and sorry Howard, but I have to believe the fact that Reusse devoted a column to this issue means the prohibition against discussing it has been temporarily lifted)…
Is this a talker? Yes, this is a talker. This is an issue that can be debated. In fact, if they went to the winter meetings and threw out all the pros and cons, I probably would agree that a coin flip isn’t the best way to decide this (although some have countered that for logistical reasons you can’t leave it to potentially the last weekend of the season).
So I agree it’s a talker.
If Woody and Skip want to banter about it on ESPN, I’m cool with that. But if passionate Twins fans use it as their angle to discuss that amazing baseball game Tuesday night when it was all said and done, well, I’m sorry, but they don’t get it. They just don’t. They miss the point, and they end up sounding foolish in my humble opinion.
In other words, the fact that there might be a better way to decide home field in that situation is 100 percent mutually exclusive from the fact that the Minnesota Twins lost that game and the Chicago White Sox are the Central Division Champions.
So my point is we can discuss the topic of coin flip at the appropriate time, but to drag it into the discussion of why we’re talking coin flip today while the Whities are in St. Petersburg, to me, is simply not getting it. And it sends the wrong message (that being, it’s not our fault, we got screwed).
“Yes, it sucks that the head-2-head record ended up amounting to nothing, ”
folks are forgetting a basic premise here, if the Twin’s would not have won the head-2-head meetings with the White Sox. THEY WOULD HAVE LOST THE DIVISION ANYWAY!!!!
so “hello!” the H2H record meant the Twin’s got to fight for another day(actually 5 more days as it turns).. dont’ tell me the H2H record meant nothing.. it meant everything!!
I think it is clear. The first thing the Twins should work on next year is the fundamentals of coin flipping.
When a Sox fan says today season series winner should have home field, it’s fair.
When ESPN says it, it’s analysis.
When a Twins fan says it, repeatedly and without remorse, its whining.
Case in point:
The crew of Dick Stockton, Ron Darling, and Harold Reynolds (who were fantastic by the way) joked about the coin flip as being silly during the game broadcast. I agreed and got a good chuckle out of it (Reynolds had a funny line about ‘the Twins execute the fundamentals well but what I want to know is who called heads or tails’).
However, when the game was over, after that great catch by Anderson, they weren’t talking about the coin flip.
See the difference?
Just FTR: Has any member of the Twins FO actually come out and said anything about this coinflip? I don’t recall the players, coaches, or FO trying to blame that.
I think I may have read a comment from someone in the org that it was unfortunate they didn’t get homefield…but I don’t think a single one of them is treating that as the reason they lost.
But this whole “it cost them the game angle” unfortunately seems to be strictly a fan thing.
The only reason it would come up in the media locally is because it’s being discussed locally. But I would like to hope that nobody in the press is actually trying to run that story like it’s the big deal.
ESPN mentioned it, and rightfully so. It IS a stupid idea. Hopefully it can be changed going forward. And while we’re fixing that, why not also get rid of the “it counts” ASG? It’s an equally stupid way of determining home field.
The Twins probably talked about because the media probably were looking for an angle and asked about it.
so “hello!” the H2H record meant the Twin’s got to fight for another day(actually 5 more days as it turns).. dont’ tell me the H2H record meant nothing.. it meant everything!!
You completely and utterly missed the point of what I was saying (as is par for your course).
The head-2-head record meant nothing in the tiebreaker scenario.
And as far as this only being an issue now, I do recall a few people around here raising eyebrows when the tiebreaker was played last year.
Was it not San Diego that had the season series against Colorado last year…yet still had to go to mile high?
There were other coin flips that same day. I believe one for Mets/Brewers, possibly one for the Astros, and I think the Dodgers were involved.
The only one that ended up getting any press was the Twins/Sox, because it’s the only one that ended up being put into effect.
T - opening paragraph on a La Velle story about it:
Twins players, still frustrated that the site of Tuesday’s playoff game against the White Sox was based on a coin flip, will contact their union for help in getting the policy changed.
“For us to win the head-to-head series this year and not get anything for it is pretty tough,” Nathan said.
(Reynolds had a funny line about ‘the Twins execute the fundamentals well but what I want to know is who called heads or tails’).
That cracked me up. It was also nice to get a bit of insight as to how the process works because after that they talked a bit about how the Assistant GM went to the offices in New York to take part.
I had wondered how that worked, and who represented the team at the flip.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with the team trying to change a rule that (and themselves, should it be necissary again ever) to take more into account when deciding where to play a important game. Nothing wrong with that.
Twins players, still frustrated that the site of Tuesday’s playoff game against the White Sox was based on a coin flip, will contact their union for help in getting the policy changed.
“For us to win the head-to-head series this year and not get anything for it is pretty tough,” Nathan said.
FIRE…go back and read what I said. I mean actually read. For comprehension:
“I think I may have read a comment from someone in the org that it was unfortunate they didn’t get homefield…but I don’t think a single one of them is treating that as the reason they lost.”
Nobody in the Twins org is blaming the flip. They think the policy sucks, which we all agree it does.
Feel free to replay with some post including the word “rubes”, but when you’re done writing it be sure to rip that page off your “Word-a-Day” because I think you’ve been stuck on September 1st for the past month now.
“You completely and utterly missed the point of what I was saying (as is par for your course).”
nope I got your point. I was referring to the whining rubes who think the coin flip cost the Twins a playoff spot
it boils down to this, Twin rubes are in 2 camps:
1)coin flip cost Twin’s playoff spot because FOR SURE they win at the dome
2)coin flip as way to decide where a play-in game is played is lame, but it has been an acceptable rule since long before most of us were on this earth
seems like sour grapes from the players and some rubes..
ESPN said that to drum up rubes like you to watch them and increase ratings!!
I was referring to the whining rubes who think the coin flip cost the Twins a playoff spot
it boils down to this, Twin rubes are in 2 camps:
Did you seriously just learn this word in the last few days? You’re starting to sound like a kindergartner who just got done taking a vocab test.
So rules even though they are ‘lame’ should just continue because it has been around a long time? I just can’t imagine what life would be like if nothing ever changed.
It is not as if the Twins are petitioning the league to change the rule including this year. For future years is what that is about. I find nothing wrong with that. If you don’t agree with something and find it silly, why not try to get it changed?
Nora: Now we agree.
Here’s how it looks to be breaking down.
Common Viewpoint: Homefield can be an advantage, and the coinflip is a stupid way of deciding it. Head-2-head should be used instead.
Majority Take: Homefield was not the only factor that contributed to the Twins loss. (This view includes most members of the press, and a large portion of Twins fans and personel)
Minority Take: Homefield was the reason the Twins lost. (This is a minority of Twins fans and some members of the press…though those writers/broadcasters may be reluctantly pushing a company line to get ratings/readers from controversy)
Just an observation, I’ve noticed this for quite a while, and yesterday’s comments bear it out:
Joe Nathan is a “top 5″ revliever, BUT he isn’t the brightest bulb in the Metrodome scoreboard. He’d have a tough time spelling “cat” even if he was spotted the C and the A.
my typo - reliever (doh!)
Mr. Brimmer,
You’re right - when you’re calling else someone stupid, you should spell your words correctly.
I’ve never met Joe Nathan, but I have no reason to criticize him. Any evidence at all that he’s a dummy? Unless you have it, that’s kind of a crummy post.
“Now, while I praise Reusse today I want to move on to a former Strib columnist, who, on his afternoon radio show yesterday made the absurd claim that Michael Cuddyer should not have been sent home in the 5th inning.
Folks, that was a no-brainer. I put the percentages of him being thrown out somewhere between 35 and 40. Heck, Ken Griffey Jr. needed a two-hop throw to nail Cuddy and A.J. himself said he didn’t even know he had the ball in his glove. That’s a situation where the Twins have to force Chicago to make a play and unfortunately for us they did just that.”
How in the world did you come up with those numbers? 35-40 percent? Did you take into account the wind factor? How about how well the grass was groomed? Did Griffey sleep on his arm funny the night before?
It isn’t absurd to think that they shouldn’t of sent Cuddyer there. It’s an opinion - and a valid one at that. Cuddyer got thrown out by a significant margin. I think it can be questioned. In a game the Twins lost 1-0, they had a runner who had broken his foot earlier in the year thrown out at home on a shallow fly ball to a multiple Gold Glove defender. And you think it’s absurd to question the decision?
There is no evidence. He’s trolling.
When was the last Gold Glove Griffey won? Watching him this season for the Sox, he’s got no speed in the field and a weak arm to boot.
Cuddy was the first hit the Twins had all night, and I get the feeling that with Punto up behind Harris they figured it was now or never to try and score him.
OMG, we’re still arguing about the friggin coin flip.
Someone wake me when the kids are sent to bed and others can have an adult conversation.
imo if nancy pelosi hadn’t made that speach the twins would have won that game!
To answer Pete D’s gracious concern above, here was my formula:
xy^4 / z^3(4z-37) = 35-40 percent
oops speech.
imo if nancy pelosi hadn’t made that speach the twins would have won that game!
A valid point. If the Republicans don’t come to town, the Twins don’t go have to go through that painful road stretch all at once.
I KNEW there would be a way to get some Republican Haterade in here.
sounds like from the Star Tribune articles Twin’s are going to bring LNP back
where does that leave the infield log jam of Buscher/Harris/Tolbert/Macri ??
Was there ever any doubt that LNP was coming back?
I mean seriously, the people who are surprised the Twins are bringing back LNP are the same people who were surprised that they didn’t pinch hit for him in the 8th inning Tuesday night.
“I mean seriously, the people who are surprised the Twins are bringing back LNP are the same people who were surprised that they didn’t pinch hit for him in the 8th inning Tuesday night.”
do you mean RUBES ?
fire; buscher isn’t a major league infielder, harris will be traded and we will probably again have an infield of mostly mix and match utility guys.
if they don’t bring back nicky who mows gardy’s lawn?
t; i was making a joke, we lost because the sox scored one more run, gets kind of old listening to all the excuses and finger pointing.
The only person I’ve seen mention Punto could be back is Sid Hartman in his article.
Other than that…why are we acting like that’s set in stone?
Oh wait, we’re just ASSuming again.
t; i was making a joke, we lost because the sox scored one more run, gets kind of old listening to all the excuses and finger pointing.
I know you were joking. I was too. Hence the little winky dude.
ggg - and LNP will be starting SS.. 
good t sometimes you don’t come off as having a sense of humor, glad you do!
if they don’t bring back nicky what the heck would we talk about on here?
I love all the LNP hate cropping up again.
Compare the loathed Nick Punto’s 2008 numbers with that of the noble heroic Jason Bartlett.
Funny, everybody wishes we had Bartlett back, and yet there are his numbers…
Fewer HRs, fewer triples, higher AVG, but lower SLG and OBP.
Not to mention more Ks and fewer BBs.
Hmmm…
if they don’t bring back nicky what the heck would we talk about on here?
The Vocal Majority will latch onto some other guy and rip him relentless. Same crap, different name.
My guess would be either Span or Casilla if they struggle out of the gate in 09.
If neither does, then look to see people continue to lay into Delmon Young and Carlos Gomez. They especially seemed to be using Young to ween themselves off of Punto over the past few months.
from Joe C’s article titled “Twin’s winter goal: Maintainence”
“Of their pending free agents, the Twins’ biggest decision is whether to retain Nick Punto, and it sounds as if they will.”
yep only Senile Sid is talking about LNP in Twin’s uniform next year.. it seems even the “Blog Monitor” is talking out of his posterior
“Vocal majority” sounds alot better then the “screaming and nashing of teeth minority”
Oh, and just to make things REAL easy to compare:
That’s Punto, Bartlett, Everett, and Harris. Just to REALLY get a feel for how things went.
I see two ugly spots for Punto (early in the year and then that dip later in the year)
Other than that, actually was hitting consistently well.
Hmm….gotta hate it when facts get in the way of a perfectly good whine session.
yep only Senile Sid is talking about LNP in Twin’s uniform next year.. it seems even the “Blog Monitor” is talking out of his posterior
Still unoriginal, but at least you’re trying to say something other than rubes.
Of course, you’re still going ignore the statistics. Gotta follow those 10 Commandments after all.
“Vocal majority” sounds alot better then the “screaming and nashing of teeth minority”
“Vocal Majority” meaning you only think you’re the prevailing opinion because you’re the loudest.
““Vocal Majority” meaning you only think you’re the prevailing opinion because you’re the loudest.”
funny that’s a great definition of a “Blog Monitor”
funny that’s a great definition of a “Blog Monitor”
I speak for nobody here but myself.
“Of course, you’re still going ignore the statistics. Gotta follow those 10 Commandments after all.”
let’s clear up some myths about any commenters that would rather LNP not be the STARTING SS next year:
1)I have said it and most level-headed folks would agree/or have said it LNP is the best option at SS looking at the current roster
2)a upgrade over LNP is what is asked for whether via trade/FA/a minor leaguer that develops/or can develop to be better
3)ten commandments? is it allowed to bring God into this blog realm?
I guess the whole LNP saga, the 3rd base circus, etc.. comes down to some of us that comment on these blogs are not satisfied with mediocre with this team we have seen since after the 1992 season a series of gory train-wrecked teams, to the present configuration of a team that is good, but will never truly contend for the World Series unless upgrades are made..
you can call that whining, or “trolling” or whatever label you want, but I went through the lean years of the 80’s until Nirvana in “87″ and then watched the abyss of the 90’s after 1992 I want to see all those years of forming a foundation(I hope) of a success franchise blossom into fruit with a team that is locked and loaded!
Let’s get this straight about my opinion on Punto:
1) Going into the 08 season, I figured it’d be Harris/Everett in the middle.
2) Once Punto showed he could contribute everyday, I had no problem with this. Especially with Everett and Harris not giving me a cozy feeling defensively.
3) Now that we’ve got Casilla, and Tolbert is healthy. The Twins should look to use youth as their starters if they can’t get a guy like Cabrera off the FA market and keep Punto as a bench role.
4) I’ll have to check that article you posted earlier, but Punto can still be brought back as a bench role (much like Redmond would be). If Punto could be had for Everett money instead of 07/08 Punto money than it may not be a bad option.
5) But none of this will matter, because Punto is so strongly hated based of 2007 and 2007 alone. His 2008 numbers are being overlooked completely by about 70% of those against the resigning.
6) Out of the three years in which Punto has had regular starts for the Twins, he’s had two good one abysmal season sandwhiched between two good seasons.
ten commandments? is it allowed to bring God into this blog realm?
Sorry, I was referring to that post by Moses’s earlier…thought it was pretty funny, figured you’d have seen it as well. (You do read everything that’s posted here right?)
comes down to some of us that comment on these blogs are not satisfied with mediocre
Now you’re just using the “No True Scotsman” fallacy.
It’s the typical comeback to say: “Well I guess I just want my team to do good and you don’t.”
That’s just like me saying “Well I guess you’re just like a Yankee fan in that it’s never enough unless your 162-0 and win the Series in 4.”
The problem is that some are content to fail while others want success. It’s that there’s two different mentalities as to what will help the team and what won’t.
And simply saying: “Well spend money and sign guys!” isn’t offering any kind of solution. As that’s not a problem unique to the Twins.
EVERY team could get better simply by “spending moar money”, but that’s not how it works. The Yankees and New York threw around all kinds of money and they’re sitting at home.
The Tigers tried to go the trade route and ended up flat on their face when they didn’t have any pitching to back them up when injuries hit.
It’s not as simple as “trade X for Y” or “Sign X”. Because there’s 8 divisions worth of teams all trying to do the same thing.
The problem is that some are content to fail while others want success. It’s that there’s two different mentalities as to what will help the team and what won’t.
Should be “isn’t that some are content to fail”.
And I suppose while I’m correcting myself, there’s more than just two ways of looking at this problem.
“But none of this will matter, because Punto is so strongly hated based of 2007 and 2007 alone. His 2008 numbers are being overlooked completely by about 70% of those against the resigning.”
what does that matter to the Twin’s Org? they have already demonstrated they don’t listen to public opinion, if LNP makes cents(get it?) to be brought back as a backup and it doesn’t block out a cheaper option of a youngster from the minors then it will happen, which according to Joe C is will
FYI - I have sworn off reading Senile Sid many years ago, he is ..well I have alot of words bouncing around in my head I could write about him..
“And I suppose while I’m correcting myself, there’s more than just two ways of looking at this problem.”
I am devoid of coffee so I maybe more mentally challenged then normal..
I dont’ see more then 1 way to look at the “problem” of upgrading the team at 3rd and SS - simply put better players are needs at both positions.. who wants to argue with that???
here’s another way to put it:
Do you want the Twin’s org to look for players better then LNP at SS and the infield mess at 3rd or are you content with what’s on the roster already?
raise your virtual hand if you want status quo, I will start counting..
too early for me to reach for the ‘i told you so’ on Chicago upsetting Tampa Bay?
LOL
I dont’ see more then 1 way to look at the “problem” of upgrading the team at 3rd and SS - simply put better players are needs at both positions.. who wants to argue with that???
The problem is what the agreement is on “better”.
I wish it was as easy as “Let’s trade for Rodriquez” or “Let’s go sign Manny this offseason”, but it’s not.
So you have to acutally come up with realistic solutions other than just “spend moar” and “trade guys”
yep, apparently so…4-3 Rays
as for nicky, imo he is a good to very good utility guy. problem being that gardy doesn’t use him that way but always seems (justified or not, your choice) to get him in full time. as he plays more he seems to make more bonehead baserunning and critical errors. maybe he puts to much pressure on himself, witness some of his temper outbursts. his ave this yr was good (in #) but it was a very weak ave. 1 rbi in every 12 ab’s by far the worst on the team amd a .194 ave with 2 out and risp.
if he comes back as a utility guy he would have value as a starter then we have a problem, imo.
FIRE: i would like them to make a real run a uggla to play 2b, move casilla to ss and if they need to use buscher and cuddy at 3b i could live with that bring in nicky in the 7 or 8 for defense.
In short: The solution often posted by some around here isn’t a solution, but rather the obvious.
“Find better players” isn’t some goal unique to the Twins. That’s why the Twins can’t just reach out and pluck whoever they choose off the market. Because every other team in baseball is also looking for “Better players” to improve their team.
it rather interesting that so far in the playoff games most runs have been scored via HR and plenty of extra base hits
if he comes back as a utility guy he would have value as a starter then we have a problem, imo.
I think the “problem” that lead to Punto everyday was that there seriously wasn’t a better option available.
Everett had a “good” glove (but struggled on the whole throwing thing), and a less than helpful bat.
Harris had a consistent bat but struggled defensively.
Punto at worst was the happy median between the two, and became moreso when Tolbert went down.
As far as Harris, who would’ve figured that Harris (who was aquired to be a middle infielder) would end the season as a split 3B with Buscher?
One of Buscher or Harris will probably not be around next season, as the Twins will be looking to upgrade at 3B.
I’d wager it’s going to Buscher, since the new guy would be brought in to hit. Harris would be on the bench with Punto as a backup. Of course, that changes if they go with Tolbert…but who knows, maybe he or Harris gets dealt.
It’s going to be interesting. Twins have a lot of young guys in the minors that stepped up this season, while also having some “regulars” that showed they had value.
“So you have to acutally come up with realistic solutions other than just “spend moar” and “trade guys””
“One of Buscher or Harris will probably not be around next season, as the Twins will be looking to upgrade at 3B.”
LOL..
Anyone who has suggested Caberra is nuts. Ozzie isn’t the only one who’s managed him that hates him. Look at how many teams he’s bounced around to in short period of time. There’s a reason why a guy with that talent keeps moving on to the next stop.
As i write this he just gets into it with Balfour and then K’s. Dude is a big mouth hot head. Not exactly the kind of guy the Twins have shown an interest over the years to get in their clubhouse.
I don’t see the point in bringing Punto back if we have Tolbert. I know he loves the team, and he’s a good guy in the clubhouse, but what’s the point? Why should we give him $3MM or so when Tolbert can provide basically the same function?
We have far cheaper and more affordable options for utility players in the infield (Tolbert, Harris), and the team already has plenty of speed.
Let’s try to trade for Evan Longoria. I’m sure Tampa’s not TOOOOO high on him… haha.
We’ll give them Span, Perkins, Hughes, Revere, and Delmon Young’s first-born son. We can also make the agreement that when we play them, we’ll sit Longoria and let the pitcher hit instead of a DH, as long as it’s regular season.
Or just offer Mauer straight up. I think it’s worth it, haha.
As for Orlando Cabrera, thanks, but no thanks. He sounds like he loves the Twins’ team philosophy, and that this is a place he’d enjoy playing… but I don’t think that would last.
I still say Beltre’s the best realistic option we can get. His splits away from Safeco are fantastic, the opposite of Atkins who can’t hit away from Coors to save his life. Kouzmanoff is nice away from PETCO, but he’s got a .299 OBP.
As for one more name that hasn’t been tossed around: Troy Glaus has a $12MM player option for the 2009 season. His power numbers were down in 2007, but he quietly had a pretty nice rebound season with a .270/.372./.483 line, 27 HR, and 99 RBI. If he declines his option or even he takes it… why not make a play for Glaus? There’s a right-handed bat that can offer protection for Morneau and add some power to this lineup.
If his option is exercised, he’ll go for $12MM… if he opts out, I don’t think offering him a two-year, $25MM deal would be a horrible signing at all.
Just my personal opinion, but it seems to me like it’s worth a shot. Bring on Glaus to take 3B, move Casilla to SS, try Hughes at 2B. If he struggles, we can go to a combination of Tolbert/Harris. I don’t think Punto is a necessary piece to the 2009 puzzle, but I’m also not delirious enough to think that he won’t be back, sitting on Gardy’s lap asking to hear a story between every single inning. Sigh…
The Twins have a number of good 2B prospects in the minors. I think they will switch Casilla to SS. He has a great arm and plenty of range.
There is some question about his sure-handedness and his fundamental play, but I think they will try him at SS.
I would like to see Nick return, but I think he will get an offer elsewhere for way more than the Twins will want to pay.
Oh, I see. FIRE doesn’t follow what I’m doing there.
See, I recognize the Twins need to upgrade at 3B.
However, instead of saying “Fix 3B!” and then calling somebody a “rube”, I instead add that with the upgrade at 3B, it will allow them to dispense of either Buscher or Harris.
I then discuss why Buscher would likely be the one to go, and then also realize that Harris serves the same type of role as Punto AND Tolbert, and since Punto has more defensively flexibility than either Tolbert or Harris it comes down to one of those two being expendable as well.
It’s called building to a conclusion. Follow how that works?
But I guess I can simplify it for you.
*ahem*
“Harris/Buscher/Punto suck! Make 3B betterer! SPEND MOAR MONEIZ!”
That more your language?
Not exactly the kind of guy the Twins have shown an interest over the years to get in their clubhouse.
Many thought the same about Young when he was first picked up. But I don’t recall there being any problems.
The reason I brought up Cabrera was because of comments he’s made in the press about his respect for the Twins.
I was hoping that those comments were a sign he could be approached to play here. And maybe that reputation that preceds him could lead to the market being less demanding for his talents (less chance of overbidding)
Twins,
Thank You for the great season. Have a nice winter and see you in the spring.
Jim Hingeley
T,
I think you may want to check out the comments made on this site from Souhan as to what management thinks of Delmon now. It sounds like buyers remorse and a realization of the error of their ways. Young is an underachieving cancer. Maybe he can turn it around. I hope so but I don’t think he’ll be in Twins uni long unless he does.
I agree it’s nice that he sounded like a guy who wants to play here but given the fact that none of his numerous former employers, including his current one, want him back and watching his antics today I don’t see it happening.
Especially since they have other options including those on the current roster (Alexi or a cheaper Punto or cheaper Everett) so as to use that money for 3rd/DH/BP help).
If you’re referring to Souhan’s most recent article, I didn’t see anything about Management’s take. I see Souhan’s take, but that’s it.
The line I find foolish is this:
If the Twins had kept Garza and found themselves with a surplus of young pitching, they might have been able to make a trade-deadline deal that would have sent them to the playoffs.
The Twins had a surplus of pitching going into 2008. That is why they dealt Garza for Young. It was part of that “being proactive” thing that Souhan later claims the Twins need to do more of.
Then you have this comment:
He would have pitched the Twins into the playoffs this season, and the two draft picks might have yielded as many quality players as the Mets trade did.
Which one can only make once the season has passed. Twins FO didn’t have a crystal ball, and again…anybody who suggested the Twins would be in the postseason race in 2008 were openly mocked.
Letting Santana walk after 2008 and only settling for picks would’ve been more of the same old from the Twins. (Essentially repeating the mistake they made with Hunter).
Losing Johan set the Twins back a ways, but by trading him instead of simply letting him walk, the Twins were able to control what they got in return, and be able to factor those returns into their plans.
Draft picks in MLB are a crap shoot. The Twins would rather gotten back a known commodity. I hated seeing Johan go, but it was the best they could’ve done.
Last offseason was about trying to cleanup after TR’s mistakes, and patching in holes while they assessed their talent.
Heck, if anybody could’ve seen Span’s 2008 coming….who KNOWS how the Santana trade would’ve played out (was that Jon Lester deal legit?)
But to get back on the subject of Young…I’ve yet to see anything in the media regarding his teammates or coaches not liking his attitude.
In fact, the only time I can think when it came up was following his ugly game in KC (the Inside the Park HR play). He was benched following that series. All the comments in the media were Delmon taking responsibility for his actions and accepting that he needed a break.
I think all the hate heaped on Delmon is unneccesary, and based mostly on the over-expecations of those in fanbase (myself included) about what to expect in his first year with the team.
In regards to Cabrera, if you look at the team he plays for now…the reputation of the Sox is a bunch of punks and then Jim Thome. If that’s actually what the clubhouse is like, I imagine that Cabrera’s behavior is likely fed by the atmosphere.
Compare that to the Twins, which from a fans perspective appears to be a pretty class organization…and perhaps his abrasive nature won’t be prevalent.
Is it possible that a guy with Cabrera’s personality would be less abrasive if surrounded by teammates who don’t feed into it?
I think it’s a risk the Twins should take. Again, it’s part of stepping outside the mold that many feel the Twins should be trying to accomplish.
T -
I usually agree with many of your takes. On Orlando Cabrera, however, we are going to differ. It isn’t worth the risk at all. At best, you get a slightly below league average hitter with a decent glove. Nick Punto actually outplayed Orlando Cabrera this year. Orlando Cabrera actually led the American League in outs this year.
Spending anywhere near $6 or $7 million dollars on a 34 year old short stop who seems to have declining skills seems like a bad use of money. Even if we have some to spend.
Since I hate it when people don’t give alternatives, I’ll throw a couple out there. I’d rather spend my money on Orlando Hudson, and move Casilla over to short, or spend it on a shorter term deal with Edgar Renteria and hope he just had a bad year, and hasn’t started to decline.
This kind of got lost in all the gloom following the Twins’ loss in Chicago but it’s pretty amazing that Joe Mauer got his second batting title as a catcher. He deserves congratulations for that achievement, even if the season didn’t end as auspiciously as we had hoped.
Pete,
Edgar Renteria? No thank you. Renteria’s two years in the American League have been complete and utter garbage. Maybe if he plays back-to-back years here and has more time to adjust, he’d improve, but that’s not a risk I want to take.
As for Orlando Cabrera being a “below average hitter,” he’s hit .281 or better in each of the past three seasons. He led the league in outs this year because he batted leadoff for one of the best offenses in baseball, meaning he got more chances to make outs than probably anyone in baseball. That argument to me is comparable to those who try to claim that K-Rod is baseball’s best closer because his team presented him with the most ridiculous amount of save opportunities in baseball history. He may have led the league in that category, but his other numbers show he’s far from the best. The same principle applies to Cabrera; he led the league because he had the most chances, but he still hit .281 and got on base at a .334 clip, which isn’t great, but I think he’d be a fine fit in the #2 spot in the Twins lineup.
However, that doesn’t mean I want him on the team, I’m just saying from a purely statistical basis, you’ve underrated him and he makes some sense for the team.
My reply to T’s comment that the White Sox are a bunch of punks (and then Jim Thome) - which I completely agree with - is that Cabrera also picked up a bad reputation from his time in Boston, and also his time with the Angels. Now you can say that Manny was there in Boston, so that was a problem, but many people compare the Angels to the Twins in terms of team philosophy. If they were so willing to trade him coming off of a .300+ season when he scored 100 runs and won a Gold Glove, that says something to me.
It’s especially troubling when you look at the return they got: Jon Garland coming off one of the worst years of his career.
Also, look at their replacement for Cabrera: A platoon of Erick Aybar and Maicer Izturis?
Cabrera is so consumed with his own image that he’s done things like call the official scorer and try to get his errors reversed. Taking pride in your defense is one thing, but that’s ridiculous. Did you see him kicking dirt across the plate and yelling at Grant Balfour yesterday in the middle of his AB during Game 1? He may respect the Twins, but I don’t think he’s the kind of player the Twins like.
I’m gonna stick with my Troy Glaus/Adrian Beltre hopes. Or, for those looking for more options… how about J.J. Hardy?
People this season went great!! I still think we could have done better, and that’s the scary when you consider that we didn’t get our ace healthy until after the all-star break. All this talk about fixing the 3B issue is blown out of proportion. The team needs to shore up the bullpen and look for a SS! If you think we NEED anything to help in the line-up or defensively just think how many more games we would have won if Neschek never got hurt. We were literally one lights-out reliever away from totally dominating the division that was supposed to belong to the over powered tigers and tremendously talented Indians(at the beginning of the season). I will look for Luke Hughes to solve our lack of power from 3B position. Until then I think platooning BB and BH is good. However, making a longterm investment in a legit SS is something that couldn’t possibly be a bad idea….right?? We need to prepare for the possibility that Neschek won’t be the same or be able to stay healthy and that is more important that bringing in some over priced 3B like Glaus or Beltre. Both of those guys are past their prime and will command big money. However, if we could get Hardy that would be a different story!!
Thyros 98
made a good point with the Cuddy Qoute and it go’s back to what I’ve been saying about the “new leaders” in the twins clubhouse. They are a bunch of whitebread overly affable pushover’s who buy too much into the we win and lose as a team philososphy. This has taken away all personal respondsiblity. At least if someone was doggin it when Torii was here there was old 48 to hold them personally respondsible.(remember the punch thrown at a younger under-achieving justin morneau)
I actually missed most of the Sox/Rays yesterday so I only heard about Cabrera’s behavior. Thanks for the description.
As far as offering alternatives. Moving Casilla to SS was mentioned. Anybody think the Twins could pry Roberts away from Baltimore? It sounds like they tried going into 07/08, and then again when Casilla got hurt. Still think he’s on their shopping list?
(remember the punch thrown at a younger under-achieving justin morneau)
Taking a swing at another player isn’t being a leader…that’s just being a douche.
I suppose Michael Jordan was a douche for making his team-mates scared to screw up too! That was a total bust and the bulls never won anything!
I can’t remember if I’m registered to comment re Souhan’s article but I know I can get on here.
First off, maybe either political party should hire OC for PR. It would appear he’s in Ozzie’s doghouse for whatever reason (reportedly for calling out his teammates to a reporter, is that the kettle calling the pot black or WHAT!). So now he’s all nicey nice re the Twins, think he’s trying to butter up BS for a FA contract???
I don’t think it would be money wisely spent to get him when we have bigger needs that he cannot provide and we already have infielders galore. And I caught a glimpse of the name Edgar Renteria as I was scrolling down to the comment box. YOU’VE GOT TO BE KIDDING…WHOEVER SAID IT, DID YOU WATCH ANY OF THE TIGERS GAME THIS YEAR???
T,
Sorry I can’t find the exact quote on Delmon (I got tired searching) but it was not a player or coach going on the record about Delmon but clearly was based on off the record background info. And it’s an issue Souhan and Reusse have raise several time either in print or on the radio over the season. The Twins players and management are to smart to call a guy out on the record like that. Certainly we have anecdotal evidence that we can all see he has many issues that call into question his “coachability” or attitude. His 23 and Longoria’s 22 are decades apart.
As for Cabrera, I think his signing would be a huge mistake in that it misses the reams need and is a misguided allocation fo the teams money. They need an impact bat. One that can slide into the 4-5 or at worst 6 spots. A 20 plus HR threat. They don’t need a #2 hitter. They’ve got those coming out their ears. They don’t need Cabrera being forced to bunt in the #2 spot and getting pissed about it. They have He’s also been sent packing by the Angels who are much like the Twins in terms of attitude so what does that tell you? Team has the money to pony up for at least one real impact player and it’s time to make that a big bat in the middle of the order (like a Beltre). They have .280 hitting shortstops. Just think the need and money would be better served elsewhere.
Steve -
Cabrera is a below average hitter. It’s pretty clear. Yes, a .281 batting average is nice. However, a .334 on base percentage is league average, and a .371 slugging percentage is 50 points below league average. His OPS+ this year was an 84. In fact, in his career, he’s only had an OPS+ above 100 once.
Compare those to Nick Punto. Punto had a higher batting average, on base percentage and slugging percentage than Cabrera this year. He is 4 years younger, and is probably Cabrera’s equal in speed and defense. Considering that I assume Punto will cost a fraction of what Cabrera will, and given Cabrera’s (alleged) clubhouse attitude, and why would we want to take a chance?
You make a good point about the outs. Cabrera was 3rd in the AL in plate appearances.
As for Renteria - I’m not saying I’d really want to take a chance on him. Just I would rather take a chance on Renteria than get Cabrera. He’s younger than Cabrera and actually has some really good offensive seasons in his career. I think he will want too many years on a contract, however, to make it worth it to the Twins.
So, perusing the list of potential free agents for next year, the only names that really intrigue me are Orlando Hudson, Edgar Renteria, and Rafael Furcal. Furcal definitely will be overpaid. Renteria will probably want too many years. So I would aim my sights at Orlando Hudson. But even then I would be careful what I offer him, because he seems to be a bit of a product of hitting in Arizona.
I couldn’t quite slog through all 11 pages (at the time) of reaction to Souhan’s article, so maybe a late entry ssid the same as what I’m about to throw out here. First of all, I’m definitely in the WE NEED POWER camp, just look at the postseason games so far, not just the usual suspects (Manny, Longoria) but even little Shane Victorino. But rather than repeat and repeat we need power, we need RH power, we need a RH power 3B ad nauseum, let’s try something else.
Having gotten that out of the way, even if BS does absolutely nothing this offseason in the way of trades or FA signings, there are definitely things that can be done in the offseason (winter ball) and for sure in spring training.
1. Defense. Even though the Twins missed by one win, how many did we lose through atrocious defense? Given all the new faces in ‘08 it’s not totally surprising there was a dropoff from traditional Twins defense. Well by now after 163 games, all you fellas should be used to each other by now especially in the field. These are not outrageous performance improvement objectives I’m suggesting. Throws to 1st HAVE to improve. Justin will not grow 12 more inches taller this winter nor land any faster when he has to jump. The runners who were slow and should have been thrown out because you had plenty of time are probably not going to suddenly run that much faster.
PFP was pretty good in the second half but horrible in the first few weeks of the season. MORE PFP, MORE PFP!!
DY’s defense, where to begin? There are a number of possibilities, most or all already suggested in the comments to the Souhan article, so I won’t regurgitate. DY has more to do in other areas IMHO.
2. Offense. DY has to work on batting approach, we can neither afford his free swinging with total disregard to the situation he’s in unless he can suddenly morph into at-his-peak Vladdy (not likely) nor his lost power. Gomez has to also improve on his batting approach. Believe it or not, I’m going to suggest this even for the M&M’s. I’m sorry but I just find unacceptable the lack of power from Mauer. And Justin needs not only a rest every now and then but also making adjustments to the way MLB now pitches him. But the biggest responsibility rests with the coaches and whoever is responsible for the Twins philosophy of hitting. Wake up Twins FO, manager, coaches, part-time coaches such as TK, Molitor, Tony O, etc. This is the last year of the DOME!!!! Unless you have a way to steamroll the grass without killing it, we need people to pull the ball outta there.
3. Pitching. The area needing the least homework. FO needs to figure out what they are going to do with Boof and Humber. Both are candidates for long or middle relief but not if they are going to get a bad attitude in that role. I would even say Humber is a candidate to replace Perk in the rotation if Perk can’t figure out why he’s good for 5 innings and can turn to horrible after that, and change that around. The bullpen, if no changes are made, they better figure out real soon what shape Neshek is in and whether Crain will ever regain his form of several years ago. Or for that matter whether Guerrier is totally fried or salvageable with rest this winter.
That’s my not low-budget, but actually no-budget approach to the offseason. Not my first choice but if BS does either nothing or g*d forbid picks up yet another over the hill or never on top of the hill FA, there are other things that need doing.
Pete, I’d take ODog before others you’ve mentioned. SoCal and I have been talking up ODog because we see him a lot way out our way. He’s a Gold Glover, hustles and plays hard, is a leader, and provides decent offense.
Oh I forgot one thing in my no-budget improvement plan: get DY running, lifting weights, whatever. I was appalled watching him in one of those late Sept. games obviously out of breath and laboring as he trucked into 3B. As has been said also ad nauseum in these blogs, he’s only 23. Exactly, he’s running like he’s 63 and a slimmer version of big bro Dmitri. If it had been his gimpy ankle I’d expect a grimace when he got to third, not huffing and puffing. He needs a conditioning program every bit as much as the Boofster did last winter.
Pete, curious about your comment re ODog being a product of hitting down here in AZ. What did you mean?
Since we know the Twins will spend very little what would you do if given the choice of only one option:
A) Get a power hitting RH 3B like Beltre or…
B) Get someone like Hudson or Cabrera
If you only get to make one addition which would it be?
Kirby, A - no brainer.
We have serviceable middle infielders, not worse than Bartlett who became the MVP of the RAys. Some of our guys have better range, or better gloves, or more offense than Bartlett, not unfortunately all in the same guy. But my point is SS over to 1B, we have enough solutions already. Not so power, and not so RH power, and not so power RH 3B.
“Pete, curious about your comment re ODog being a product of hitting down here in AZ. What did you mean?”
While I haven’t really looked hard at the numbers for B.O.B, I’ve always heard that it was a hitters park. And Hudson’s numbers would seem to support that statement :
Home/Road splits
2006 : .321/.397/.489 to .254/.313/.421
2007 : .302/.382/.511 to .286/.370/.369
2008 : .326/.403/.536 to .288/.337/.381
Obviously, most players hit better at home than on the road. However, those splits look pretty significant to me. You wouldn’t want to pay for the home numbers and get the road numbers.
Pete, in this climate of financial institution takeovers, I feel obligated to bring you up to date: it’s now Chase Field, but the mascot is still Baxter the BOBcat!
Even though I live here I’m not really a Dbacks fan. Oh I’ll root for them occasionally but I’m a diehard Twins fan. I’ve gone to games at Chase Field and I was thinking about what you said. Two things do come to mind.
It’s easy to forget that Phoenix is at approx. 1000 feet altitude in downtown where the stadium is located. The Dbacks website says that actually accounts for about 7 feet more carry on hits. No need for a humidor yet!
The other thing is that of course with the high temps in the summer, the roof is closed and the place is air conditioned. That eliminates unfavorable winds blowing in. Don’t know if they have an alleged air conditioning “god” who toggles inlets and outlets!! (LOL)
So with those two things going on I suppose it is a hitter’s park. Since Hudson has only modest power those factors shouldn’t make that big a difference for him. Maybe allows him to fist line drives or flyballs farther?? So I’m left scratching my head on that one.
I suppose Michael Jordan was a douche for making his team-mates scared to screw up too!
And I suppose leadership via fear is a good example to set?
Isn’t that called a dictatorship?
ZZZZZZZZZZZ….
Oh. Let’s see how many Old Sox suffer groin pulls on the sloppy field in Chicago today. I bet there’s a 2-hour+ delay.
Rooting for the Phillies and Rays. The Dodgers, Sox, Sox, and Angels are where they are because they’re rich and bought their players.
Raining in Chicago as usual. Do they travel in cars or boats there? It is always raining there.
Garza gives up 4 runs already.
Kubel and Hunter with almost identical output at the plate this year across the stat board of BA, HR’s, Xtra basehits, RBI’s — considering Hunter had more AB’s.
Punto and Tolbert had higher BA’s than Casilla.
Looking at the Angels lineup (and game) tonight, the Twins could field pretty much an identical lineup in effect and potency if they did this:
1-Gomez
2=Mauer
3-Morneau
4-Beltre
5-Kubel DH
6-Young
7-Cuddy RF
8-Punto SS/2B
9-Casilla SS/2B
Angels current lineup:
1-Figgins 3B
2-Anderson LF
3-Teixeira 1B
4-Guerrero DH
5-Hunter CF
6-Rivera RF
7-Napoli C
8-Kendrick 2B
9-Aybar SS
Match ‘em up, number by number. Twins would look very good.
God, he even RUNS like Kubel now.
Didja see that a couple minutes ago?
