OK, let’s make things better in 2009
Posted on October 7th, 2008 – 9:46 AMBy Howard
In a division that featured two dreadful underperformers (Cleveland/Detroit) and another that’s always threatening to get to a competitive level (Kansas City), the Twins simply can’t expect that a year of experience alone will put them among the favorites for the 2009 postseason.
Neither, as Detroit showed, will going on and bringing in a batch of new talent automatically makes things better.
What to do for next season?
Well, based on what I think they need and what I’m led to believe, the Opening Day 2009 Twins should have a new left side of the infield, a new outfielder, a right-handed bat and enhanced middle relief.
Let’s deal with the outfield first. If you had to rank us, I think the biggest fans of Delmon Young are: 1) Me. 2) The front office. 3) Gardy and his coaches. Because what I think doesn’t really matter, it’s going to be interesting to see if Gardy can convince Bill Smith to trade Delmon to meet another need, maybe at third base and/or the bullpen. My understanding is that the Twins were not enamored with Delmon’s approach to the game and it seemed like he slowed in other areas of the game at the same time that his offense picked up. (Did he look heavier to you too? Do you think it concerns the Twins that big, big brother Dmitri is listed at 300 pounds on the Washington Nationals’ web site? Do you think that his tendency to make ill-advised throws has something to do with it?)
In other words, I can understand if the Twins think they can get some value for a promising young outfielder (.290 career average in 2+ seasons and an above-average arm). Yes, it means acknowledging that the Garza/Bartlett trade was a failed move. But if Young can bring a need-filler, I can see them making the move. The fallout would be moving Denard Span from right field to left, which is a good idea in the Dome, and returning Michael Cuddyer to right with Jason Kubel as the fourth outfielder/DH.
Young is the most marketable of the players the Twins are willing to deal unless they’re willing to part with one of their young starting pitchers, which I doubt will happen (and I don’t think should happen).
The Punto thing. Strip away all the emotional attachments that some people have to Punto and he’s worth keeping around in the role he was envisioned for this season — a three-position infield reserve. And while Punto’s offensive numbers were about as high as they’ll ever be, he showed himself to be incredible inept at bringing runners home on a team where chances were abundant. He had 28 RBI in 338 at-bats. Here’s one way to look at it: Craig (.202) Monroe had 29 RBI during his half-season in Minnesota with fewer than half the number of ABs as Punto.
Here’s another: At the pace he set this season, Punto would have needed 1,558 at-bats to drive in the same number of runs as Justin Morneau (129). That he was the best available later-season option at shortstop should not color anybody into inflating his long-term value and place.
By the way, if Punto goes, I’d favor keeping Matt Tolbert around to fill that role. Please don’t bring me Juan Uribe, who has eight seasons in the majors and a career on-base percentage that looks a lot like a certain Twins center fielder.
So who plays shortstop? Orlando Cabrera of the White Sox seems to be the people’s choice. But he’s going to be 34 next season and will likely want a long-term deal. He didn’t get along with Ozzie Guillen but he was also been deemed expendable by the Red Sox and Angels, for whom he compiled good numbers. It does make you wonder about temperament, especially after the tantrums he threw when he called up to the press box to complain about error rulings and explained afterward: “If there was a major league player who tells me he’s not selfish, he’s lying. Everyone is selfish about numbers, because that’s the only thing people cannot lie about.” I’m kind of intrigued by Edgar Renteria, who had a subpar year with Detroit and should be available for a year or two at a more reasonable price.
(Cabrera update: This is from a weekend q-and-a column by the Boston Globe’s Bob Ryan:
Dewey24: Looks like Orlando Cabrera is on the outs in Chicago. Should the Sox consider bringing him back here next year, even with Lowrie?
Bob Ryan: There’s a reason why he has bounced around that has nothing to do with what he does on the field, and we’ll leave it at that.)
Third base. Casey Blake is such a pro that I’d like to see the Twins make a run at him. I’m also in favor of pursuing the full range of options that could be available in trade — Adkins, Beltre, Mora, Kouzmanoff. The Twins set a pretty low baseline for defense at third base by being willing to platoon Buscher and Harris, so the argument of the suspect glove doesn’t really work. In fact, it makes the argument for trying Michael Cuddyer at third seem more reasonable, but I can’t see that happening - even though he’s now listed with the infielders on the Twins web site — unless the Twins can’t swing a deal of some sort. Joe Crede and his aching back is an interesting free-agent option, although I can understand if he’s artificial turf averse.
Set-up relief. Let’s be happy about getting Past Neshek back without getting carried away with our expectations. (See Crain, Jesse.) Prepare to say goodbye to Dennya Reyes because someone will offer him good money and Matt Guerrier needs to be prepared to battle for a job. Right now, the only sure thing beyond Joe Nathan appears to be Jose Mijares, the young lefty. The order of everything else is up in the air. I’d love to see Crain show me something in his second year back from the elbow surgery and I like giving Boof a chance. But the Twins are going to have to sift through the swine to find the pearls. I don’t feel comfortable throwing out names because the numbers attached to them can be as deceptive as Reyes’, which masked his tendency to give up big hits in short stint.
But given their reputation for giving relievers work and the good reputation of pitching coach Rick Anderson, the Twins should be an attractive landing spot for guys like LaTroy Hawkins or Will Ohman or Luis Ayala, who are among the current batch of free agent relievers.
Last winter was dominated by the distraction of Santana and the front office’s need to nail down its in-house talent (Morneau/Cuddyer) for the years to come. This winter is a time to look outward and make the moves needed so the Twins can do what should be within reach — play October baseball in ‘09 and beyond.
387 Responses to "OK, let’s make things better in 2009"
Thanks Howard. Great point on Cuddyer’s ability to play third being no worse than Buscher’s. But has he had any infield practice in the past two years? Moving him back to third would only be a short-term solution (assuming Luke Hughes will be ready by 2010). Aside from defense, I think Cuddyer became a much better offensive threat when he moved to RF.
I really like Nick & Nick’s idea today about Orlando Hudson at 2B and moving Casilla to SS with Punto worked into the mix — he’s 30, compared to 34-year old Cabrera, and he has the upside of not being a former White Sox player.
Interesting that Cuddyer is back listed as an infielder on the Twins web site.
I would be in favor of returning him to third base if there isn’t another option. I’m ok trading Delmon Young if it fills a glaring need (3B). I think Delmon needs to go to a lighter bat and should get his eyes checked like Span did last off season and got lasik surgery. Neshek at 80 percent of what he once was will be a plus, but another veteran RH arm in the bullpen is a must. They should have traded for Chad Bradford and we would have made the playoffs. One point about Crain Howard, it was his shoulder not his elbow. We need a shortstop on the FA market with Punto going back to the utility role. He can’t hit in the clutch and his numbers prove that. Great to see you and Joe C. still writing about the Twins. I guess LEN3 is getting rested up for spring training.
Sorry Sinker but I have to disagree with the idea that the Twins should even think about trading DY. Make free agent acquisitions to bolster the BP and lets ride with what we have now. Maybe Hughes is ready sometime this coming year. Maybe you put cassila at SS cuddy at second(because he was better there than 3B) and let Buscher and Harris have third until Hughes is ready. Having major run production from second base might make up for the loss of defensive range cuddyer would offer as a second baseman.
Luke Hughes is NOT the Wonder Boy of the Twins!
Hughes has stone hands and a bad glove.
For the relievers, I would put Craig Breslow in the “definitely gets a shot” category- the guy delivered plenty of good innings for the Twins this season, and I would like to see more of him next year.
Shameless,
I tried to make it clear that I was writing about Young based on what I was picking up from the Twins. I seem to like him more than they do, but he is probably the most marketable of the trade prospects.
Cuddyer at second is a scary, scary thought.
Swannie,
I think Breslow is a front-runner and I probably didn’t show him proper love in the post. But a half-season doesn’t make a set-up guy a lock.
Shaikin of the L.A. Times: says the Angels have considered acquiring Dan Uggla as a way to compensate if Teixeira leaves. Uggla would probably play third base.
if uggla is on the market, as reported, we should do whatever it takes to get him!! imho!
florida needs young cheap pitching and we have plenty of that.
ok
“florida needs young cheap pitching and we have plenty of that.”
And we don’t need to spend $$$ because we are CHEEEEEEAP!! Also Carl Pohlad is an ebeneezer scrooge
I have seen Kouzmanoff here at Nats a couple of times–good looking kid at 3B–probably better than any Twins prospect or Buscher at this point. I dont think he is free agent–but Twins should make a play for him.
I am leery of trading Delmon or moving Cuddyer to 3rd–just because GoGo and Span had good years last year doesnt mean they will have good careers–Twins shouldnt lose depth.
Why not trade one of starters (Blackburn or Baker) for good 3B/SS–give Boof or Humber chance for spot–if that does not work–sign a free agent during spring training–there will be lots out there.
DAM
Howard,
Why not give Cuddy playing time where ever it works out? Bat him between M&M again let him rack up RBI’s them trade him at the deadline. Then we can keep are super young super talented outfielders until we can’t afford them anymore!
here’s a link to a bit by sickel on luke hughes done a month ago:
http://www.minorleagueball.com/2008/9/2/606024/where-did-this-guy-come-fr
Shameless,
I think there’ll be a spot for Cuddyer next year, especially because the Twins aren’t exactly swimming in right-handed pop (and they don’t like Delmon as much as we do). It’s stuff like this that makes for an interesting off-season.
Blah,
Did you take a wrong turn on the way to the Vikings blog?
When are we going to trade Cuddy because he is no longer needed and we could save just that much more money by not having to pay him.
Howard do you think we will ever see Toby Gardenhire making the team. We could have a combination like Cal Sr and Cal Jr
How about Delmon as DH/fourth outfielder? Let him concentrate on hitting.
I agree with all the reasons to trade Delmon, just doesnt seem motivated to be here. But, i would hate to lose another potential slugger to where he goes and dominates on another team and becomes huge (Ortiz). Maybe he has become a victim of the influence of the Twins smallball philosophy and it screwed him up this year. We know he can hit HUGE bombs. Let him do what he does and hopefully he can stay away from the buffet table and keep it in check unlike his bro and hit more bombs. Stop trying to hit the other way and turn on it and he could potentially be a 120 rbi guy, IMO. Besides, hes only 22-23; so im sure, or I hope, he hasnt come close to his maturity in this league. Same reasons to give Gomez slack, I just want to see him look like he enjoys himself.
I must be the only Twins fan that never liked DY. Whenever a ball was hit to left field, I felt like it was going to either bounce in front of him because in Left Fielder School he never learned how to dive for balls, or it would sail about a foot wide of the glove he stuck up in the air. On a couple of occasions even Bert N’ Ernie commented that DY had taken a strange route to get to a fly ball. The guy is NOT a natural in the outfield. So if he’s traded I won’t lose any sleep.
Cuddyer in the infield, especially at 2nd base, is scary. He is not quick enough with his hands and there won’t be any double plays turned if he’s there. Put him back in right field until he can be traded.
I liked Craig Breslow’s pitching last season and think he should be in the “definite” column for next year.
After watching Cabrera have a tantrum at home plate during his at-bat against Balfour in the playoffs, I realized that there was more to why he didn’t get along with people. I believe the front office is smart enough to pass on him because his personality won’t mesh with the team, and who wants to deal with a behavior problem.
Kent Hrbek Dimitri is diabetic and shouldn’t be made fun of. I think there is something in the meds that makes him gain weight.
I like the idea of Dan Uggla playing 2nd or 3rd and moving Casilla to SS.
What about trading One of our starters for J.J. Hardy? The Brewers have an even younger cheaper SS that’s being blocked by Hardy, so they be looking to move Hardy before he gets a pay raise.
I think Crede would be a better choice at third than the other free agent options. I don’t see the value in Beltre’s contract for the Twins.
like the idea of Dan Uggla playing 2nd or 3rd and moving Casilla to SS.
and how do we intend on paying him??? I am just saying the Twins can’t afford him. I also like Tex and A-Rod but it’s just not in the budget
Howard,
All these letters and no response to the Punto part of your column. You are right, Punto and the team are best served when he is in a reserve role. There is, of course, a problem with that. We both know that if Punto is the utility guy, Gardenhire will find a way to start him 5 to 6 games a week. That’s unacceptable.
Our 3B problems are over.
The Dodgers have granted free agency to an inexpensive switch-hitting 3B, who hit .378, 9-69, OPS=.977 at AAA last year.
The bad news is that that guy is Terry Tiffee.
Could Teixeira play third base?
Why can’t we trade for Evan Longoria?
“Could Teixeira play third base?”
He could play below average 3B for 10 years, $200 million.
Blah:
Uggla isn’t a free agent until 2012. he is arbitration eligible, but a $5 million/year is still a bargain compared to what we’re paying Mike Lamb to NOT play 3rd for us.
It would be disappointing to me to see Gardenhire and his coaches give up on another young talent (see Ortiz, David) so quickly, but I can’t argue with the fact that he’d be much more marketable than Cuddyer or Kubel would. If they do make that kind of deal, it had better be for fair value and not just a one year rental (see Beltre, Adrian).
Punto’s value is that while you ideally have him in a utility role, he’s demonstrated a couple of times now (2006 and 2008) that he can step in to play a regular role, if/when injuries occur. To me, this comes down to a financial decision… he’s worth utility infielder money, but if he expects starting infielder money for multiple years, the Twins have to pass.
As for other options, the Twins have the money to absorb guys like Blake, Beltre, Uggla, Hudson, etc. There’s over $20 million of payroll room between current levels and the 52% of revenues “target” the Twins have always talked about and there really isn’t anyone of note that has to get a big payday this off-season (Kubel, perhaps, if they decide he’s part of their long term plans).
Brian we won’t get Uggla. We only get washed up vets that don’t last a whole season. If the Twins were to get Uggla it would be against there principals
As far as the outfield goes, I think that Young RF, Gomez CF and Span LF are the way to go. Last year, Young was better than Cuddyer, even when the latter was not hurt. Cuddy might have a couple more good years left. I think that they should keep all five OFs, unless they decide to go with someone like Milton Bradley at DH (who would be a great pick up, btw) which makes Kubel/Cuddyer tradeable.
I am fine with Punto as the starting SS, if the Twins pick up 2 power bats. I am more concerned with Casilla’s slide in September than Punto being Punto and Gardy being Gardy about Punto. That said, I’d love to see them try to get Rafael Furcal and install him on the #2 hole in the order.
As far as pitching goes, I think that starting pitching is more of an issue than the pen. The pen was very good in September (3.68 team ERA) while the rotation (esp. Perkins) struggled (4.92 team ERA)… Perkins could be good bullpen material or trade bait for a 3B. I know that he is the local boy and a former first round pick, but he should be more available than Young. A core of Nathan, Neshek, Mijares, Breslow, Crain, with the potential addition of Delaney, would make a good group. The Twins have an excess in pitching in the organization and should not go out and get rethreads like Ohman, LaTroy or (god forbid) Ayala (he makes Guerrier look like Cy Young).
I think that given the fact that the Twins as a team struggled defensively, having a good defensive and power hitting RH 3B is essential. In my book (other than the untouchables Wright, Longoria, Zimmerman, A. Ramirez and co) only 3 players fit the bill: Beltre, Glaus, Rolen. All 3 might be available for the right price… and the Twins have: Perkins, Cuddyer, Kubel, Guerrier, + a slew of decent rated pitching and OF prospects to dangle… I think that people like Joe Benson and Dustin Martin who are blocked in the majors and have Revere/Hicks/Morales behind them should be made available…
So here is my take for a roster that would cost about $25 mil more than the current Twins’ payroll (italics = new):
C Mauer
1B Morneau
2B Casilla
SS Furcal (Punto)
3B Rolen/Glaus/Belter
LF Span
CF Gomez
RF Young
DH Bradley
bench:
C: Redmond
OF: Pridie
IF: Tolbert/Plouffe
IF: Hughes/Harris
gone (minors or trades): Cuddyer, Buscher, Ruiz, 1 middle IF between Tolbert/Harris
SP Slowey
SP Liriano
SP Baker
SP Blackburn
SP Swarzak/Humber/Duensing
CL Nathan
RHP Neshek
LHP Mijares
LHP Breslow
RHP Crain
RHP Delaney
gone: Perkins/Bonser/Guerrier/Korecky
uggla still has 3 yrs of arbitration left so his salary won’t be that high. his #’s compare to morneau’s so if they had to give him 10m big deal. the marlins have a bunch of guys going into arbitration and need to dump a couple players. it would be better then giving punto 2-3m for a 1/4 the production. blackburn plus a few middle prospects maybe gets you uggla. if they are determined to trade young the reds are looking and maybe edwin encarnacion plus a prospect for young? sure would transform the infield into some serious production. casilla at ss wouldn’t have to produce much at the plate.
Baker, Morneau, Mauer, Slowey, and perhaps Nathan are untouchable; anyone else…
Howard,
I agree that Cuddyer will have a spot with this team next year (at least the 1st half).
Right now he has virtually no trade value due to his salary and his injuries this year.
In order to have any trade value he has to stay healthy next year and produce at the plate. If he can do that, he could be used as mid-season trade bait.
I doubt many people are interested in committing to a player for 2 years @ $6M/year when he missed most of this year.
ganderson,
I would say Liriano is untouchable as well.
“unless they decide to go with someone like Milton Bradley at DH (who would be a great pick up, btw)”
thrylos98 I like the way your thinking. Milton Bradley and Delmon Young on the same team.
ganderson I don’t think Gomez is going anywhere either
I like the upside of Delmon, but if he must go, I would like to see them trade for Uggla, a nice RH power bat that we need desperately.
And, how long do you think Cuddyer can last playing in the field? The many more years of service you could get from Delmon is something to consider
Oh, thanks for the article Howard.
This is going to be a telling offseason for the Twins. If we sit pat, we could make another playoffs push. But if we improve, the Twins could be a favorite for the division title
Uggla is ugly. Can’t field and way too many strikeouts.
Delmon might net a quality arm for the pen. Even if they can only get a good minor league prospect, they should still trade him.
I agree with someting Thyrlos said,
Why don’t the Twins move Delmon Young back to Right Field? As soon as Cuddy went down DY should have been moved to RF where there is much less ground to cover. You move Span to LF where his speed is much more of an asset.
Howard,
I don’t know if I would really call what Cuddy has as pop. He has only hit 20 HR’s once and that appears to have been quite a fluke. His numbers will be worse than DY’s next year guaranteed.
jama,
If the Twins had known the outfield would be Span/Gomez/Delmon, I’m pretty sure they would never have moved Delmon from right field. But when Cuddyer got hurt, they didn’t want to shift two outfielders, especially when they weren’t sure what they were getting with Span.
As far as Cuddy v. Delmon next year, I’ll take that bet for a ginger ale.
Count me in as saying there is no way the Twins should give up on DY after one year.The Twins biggest problem is they over sold hom to the public as a power hitter,and the public bought it.He hit THIRTEEN HR’s in his rookie year!He may develope into a power hitter,but do you want to trade him after one year and whine about him hitting thirty HR somewhere else.Keep DY,Gomez,Span and Cuddyear and give this team some depth.
The Punto situation shouldn’t be # 2 on the list.He should be an after thought if all else fails.Shortstop could be solved by filling secondbase and switching Casilla to short,although I must admit to not being up to speed on the 2B’s out there.I agree that Tolbert could more than fill Puntos role.Count me out on Cabrera at SS.At the risk of sounding like Sid,How about making a run at bringing Christian Guzman back?Isn’t he a FA?
Although he’s coming off two injury plagued seasons,I would like to see the Twins take a look at Hank Blalock.He’s still only 28 yrs old.Aikens,Beltre and Kouzmanoff are probably going to come at a steep price.I don’t see the Twins really having that much to offer in the way of trades.
The Twins biggest problem with their bullpen remains Gardenhires(over)use of it, and the Organizations reluctance to take the diapers off the young starters.It doesn’t matter who they get if they are over used.
The starters shouldn’t be happy with piching five or six innings and the coaching staff should demand more of it.Watching the playoffs,and other teams use of young starters,convinces me that the Twins baby their starters more than anyone.Get rid of the 100 pitch count.The only reason these guys “tire” after 100 pitches is because they are conditioned to do so.
“The Twins biggest problem is they over sold hom [Young] to the public as a power hitter,and the public bought it.”
I never once heard that from the Twins. Do you have a quote?
Howard -
I can’t believe I’m going to do this, but I’m going to defend Nick Punto.
Yes, he only had 28 RBI this year in 339 at bats, while Craig Monroe had 29 in 163. But Monroe batted an unreal - for Craig Monroe that is - .287/.389/.609 with RISP this year. Compare that to last year when he hit .254/.316/.430 or 2006 when he hit .259/.307/.483. When you look at those numbers, Nick Punto’s .265/.315/.349 line this year doesn’t look so bad.
Yes, Craig Monroe is going to get more RBI than Nick Punto, mainly because he hits for more power. I’d love to see Punto get more RBI, but they really are a pretty team-dependent statistic. Who was on base in front of him? At the start of the year, Punto batted in the 2 hole a lot - right behind someone like Carlos Gomez, who was never on base. At the end of the year, he was in the 8 hole a lot - with guys like Kubel, Young, and Buscher on base ahead of him - not the quickest guys on the team.
On a final note, I’m kind of disappointed that in the same post that criticizes Punto for not getting enough RBI, you praise Cabrera for putting up ‘good numbers’ with the Red Sox and Angles. I would say that Punto’s year this year was comparable to any of Cabrera’s years outside of 2003.
The problem with putting Cuddyer in RF and off-loading Kubel and Young is that Cuddyer has only been able to play 121 games per year between the ages of 25 and 29.
Except for Paul Molitor, very few players become MORE durable at the age of 30.
ONLY Mauer and Morneau are untouchable. Everyone else could be traded if the right deal arose….
Liriano too- forgot ‘im
One note on Milton Bradley -
2008 Home/Away Splits :
Home : .358/.466/.679
Away : .290/.410/.462
Differences : .068/.056/.217
Now, almost every player will have home splits higher than road splits. But those numbers are pretty crazy. Slugging 200 points higher at home?
And to whomever suggested Hank Blalock - no chance. Look at these numbers :
2008 :
Home : .343/.415/.610
Away : .248/.282/.438
Career :
Home : .306/.375/.531
Away : .244/.299/.402
Texas is the American League’s answer to Colorado.
Good post, Pete D.
Also, a solo home run counts as an RBI and a run scored, but only one run is produced. HR hitters stats always look bigger, due to this baseball anomaly.
Punto scores a fair amount of runs considering his playing time. At the end of the day, runs scored is all they add up to determine who wins the game. Punto scores runs, and with his glove he keeps the other team from scoring. Not a great player, but a good player.
Both history and common sense tell us that there isn’t going to be nearly the turnover that you and others are suggesting.
It’s dangerous to evaluate our team completely on the basis of how they ended the season. The bullpen was tired–I agree there are some talent issues, too.
This is one area where another year of experience should help. I’m thinking that this group of starters will go at least a bit further into games next year (and remember we’ll be minus the guaranteed short starts from Livan next year that taxed these guys early in the year).
I think we will see perhaps an arm or two added to the bullpen. Perhaps one will be a proven commodity and the other will be a journeyman who Rick Anderson will be asked to resurrect. The good news is that he’s pretty good at that.
I’ve said before that I think giving up on any of these young outfielders is a mistake. As others have said, their relatively limited amount of experience is not necessarily a guarantee of future performance.
So some depth there is important and we must get Morneau a break here and there so the ability to have Cuddy play some there is important. I really think there are enough at-bats to go around.
I really don’t know how many times it needs to be proven to us that bringing in an outsider at shortstop will likely not yield us much more than what we have in Punto/Tolbert/Harris.
A right handed power guy at third base should be the top priority. I truly believe that Buscher has the ability to be that guy, but I’m not sure this club has the luxury of waiting for it to happen (remember Koskie).
The bottom line, you might see a new face or two in the bullpen and at least one additional hitter–hopefully in the body of an everyday third basemen. But that will likely be it. And to expect much more than that is both naive and foolish.
BrentG,
Good takes, but Buscher (LH hitter) can’t be that righthanded power guy at third base.
Pete D.,
the away numbers of Bradley (.290/.410/.462) are similar to Morneau’s totals (.300/.374/.499) plus he is hit lefties last season at a .341/.476/.651 clip.
I’d take that
Geez Howard,
Maybe you should do some research before trying to slam Punto’s status of hitting people in. He only had 83 at bats with runners in scoring position. You talk about chances being abundant? 83 chances? he had 24 RBI’s in those 83 at bats with 7 walks (.265 avg). That is a lot less oportunity then you would like to have people believe. Do some research before you spout off. At this rate, maybe anybody can have their story published by the trib.
Oh yeah just to make you feel better, Monroe only had 46 at bats, had 21 rbi’s with a .283 avg, with runner’s in scoring position.
Monroe was more productive, but don’t try to convince people that Punto was so inept at hitting people in, by throwing stats out that are very misleading. Try to be a better “journalist”.
Howard,
Sounds like a deal. Overall I think Delmon’s numbers will top Cuddyer’s and you think otherwise. I’m basically just looking at BA OBP OPS. Would you like to include any other stats? HR’s and RBI’s?
These posts are interesting. Milton Bradley??? Are you kidding? If you want to consider the (power #s v. good clubhouse guy) why not just give Barry Bonds a call? Why would we want a cancer like Bradley?
Howard: I’ve heard the same things about how Gardy & the coaches feel about Delmon, but do you think Bill Smith can check his ego at the door of the winter meetings and admit he made a bad trade right out of the blocks and deal the kid again? I doubt it. Is is possible that another year of Twins baseball could make Young better? I’m sorry he’s not an All Star, but for a 22-year old kid he’s still REALLY good. Why can’t we cut the kid some slack and see what happens in his 3rd year of pro ball?
I can’t beleive people want to trade Delmon Young. He is 23 and has a lot of room to grow. I love Span’s D but I ‘d put him out there just to see who you could possibily get. The Padreas need a CF real bad and Span would fit. I like Span but we have way too many left handed batters on this squad. Your 3, 4 and 5 hitters are all lefties. Trade Cuddyer and a pitcjing prospect to the Padreas for Kouz or move him back to third. I never thought he was that bad at third. Sign Cabera, maybe take al ook at Sweeney for you right handed DH and pinch hitter.
The Twins also need someone to back up first base. Sure, Cuddyer is always a possibility. Do you replace Tolbert/whomever as infield reserve with a Buscher?
Casey Blake would be a dynamite pickup for third/first/outfield.
ALso be ncie if the Twins could eliminate the 12th pitcher.
Humber or Boof?
Punto decision ahs to be amde for shorstop (considering salary demands) or letting him go free agent.
Tolbert/Harris backup?
If Young goes, Pridie becomes the spare outfielder, capable of playing all three spots (or Kubel switches out right/left and Span center).
Do the Twins find a big-bat DH. Is such a thing out there anymore?
Perkins — starter, relief, tradebait? Lefties in the wings Swarzak/Duensing. Do you need more than two in a rotation?
Breslow/Mijares out of the bullpen. At least they both can pitch more than an inning. That’s a plus.
Crain/Neshek/Guerrier…not all three, or replace one (but we DON’T NEED 12 PITCHERS). Wish Boof/Humber could serve one more year in reserve in the minors. Maybe Boof can…….does anyone want him, really?
Or, turn the roster like you did this year. Get rid of Guerrier, one or two staretrs (Perkins and Balckburn), trade Boof, Young, Buscher, Harris/Tolbert. Have 5-6 new faces. The Braves do it regularly. The Twins did it alst year. Oakland likes to switch faces. Standing pat is not always the answer.
Nice post, Brent, I’m with you. Why break up a first place team? It seems to be working to get a few veteran free agents to start the season off with and plugging in minor league call ups that the farm system has been grooming after a while. I don’t see the harm in paying Mike Lamb for doing nothing if we get the chance to see what Casilla, Span, and the like can do later.
But I like that Milton Bradley idea.
Why break up a first place team?
second place, last time I checked… any team has flaws and if you sit still either those flaws will come back and bite you or the opposition will get better or (most likely) both.
The twins will never pick up Bradley. He’s been a cancer at every clubhouse he’s been at. And he’s not at the decline of his career 
THIRD BASE HOT TOPIC:
Kouzmanoff at 3B is tempting since he could probably be pried from the Padres relatively cheaply. He’s under a one-year deal and struggled the end of last season.
Beltre is the flashiest name of them all but he would come at a pretty steep price and I’d hate to give up a handful of talent only to lose him in another year.
I liked Blalock a few years ago but his power numbers have fallen off the earth and he’s another lefty.
Casey Blake is one of those guys that comes up almost every year and has always been a Twins “kind-of-guy” (except when we had him years ago). He’s 35 and you have to wonder how much longer his defense can hold up. He still hits the ball well. No for me on Crede. OR…we could just teach Buscher how to hit lefties. Nonetheless, we need to get that corner nailed down.
thrylos -
Yes, Bradley is a good hitter. However, he isn’t as good as his numbers might suggest. That was my point in bringing up the splits.
Now, add into that fact that he is known to have ‘clubhouse issues’ or whatever you would like to call his blow ups. He’s also played only 1 season that I would even consider a ‘full’ season, when he played in 141 games for the Dodgers in 2004. Otherwise his career highs are 129, 101, and 98. Those have to count against him.
I’d be interested in bringing Bradley in. But I would expect that he is going to be looking for a big contract for several years - and that is something I wouldn’t want to give him. A 2 year deal? Sure. But I don’t expect he would accept it.
I guess I like the Twins to be fiscally responsible. Don’t get stuck in a dead end contract.
Casey Blake doesn’t suck enough for the twins to go after him.
I really think that if we trade Young they will end up regretting it in the end. I can’t speak to his weight, or his attitude but hasn’t Gardy shown the willingness to call Young players out that he thinks are hot doggin it ie. Cuddy, Lohse, Casilla, Bartlett, Kubel, Morneau, etc. As far as I can rememebr there was none of that this year, just media speculation about Young’s poor attitude. Give him another year and I think he will show some real improvement.
has shown
Sorry, thrylos, gotta disagree. When the season ended, Twins were in first. Chicago tied US. The coin toss decided who went to the playoffs (and obviously the home team would win.) That’s the way I am looking at this season all winter.
A first place team.
New and Improved
Do I have a quote? Just go back to when the trade was made and take a look.I don’t think anyone came right out and said Delmon is going to hit 30 HRs but the theory was implied that he would off set Hunters leaving.
Like I said,give Delmon a couple of years,like Torii got,or Morneau as another example,and you might see more power production.I am just not in favor of giving up on him after one year.
Nope, can’t give up on Young. Bartlett is the Ray’s MVP. Delmon might be the Twin’s MVP next season. Especially if we use the Ray’s criteria for selecting MVP’s. (LOL!)
Mauer untouchable? Rumors out of Boston is that the Sox–hot for a replacement for Varitek–will test that theory. Possible package of Youkilis, Crisp and a young bullpen arm…not Papelbon’s.
If Young goes are we bring back L.FORD im not a huge Young fan but age what 23 his upside is stll ahead keep him one more year. Baseball America voted him what best prospect 2 years in a row
I am of two minds about Delmon- I have heard that he’s not particularly coachable- anyone else heard anything about that?- but Delmon’s upside still seems high to me And… I’ve been a Cuddy booster since day one- but if they could move him for a 3B or SS I’d be tempted- he’s not getting any younger, and doesn’t seem real durable.
GREENMOSTER:
I suppose they would give up Coco Crisp and others for Mauer. Who wouldn’t? Although Youkillis is gotta be one of the top players in the league. I’ve never seen him do anything wrong. Boston would be dumb to get rid of him.
“Mauer untouchable? Rumors out of Boston is that the Sox–hot for a replacement for Varitek–will test that theory. Possible package of Youkilis, Crisp and a young bullpen arm…not Papelbon’s.”
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!
Youkilis, Crisp and a young bullpen arm will not get you Mauer… The Twins have 5 OF for 3 spots as is, so there is not need for that.
To get Mauer, you’d probably look for giving up at least: Lester, Lowrie, Masterson and Kottaras and probably another catcher like Jonathan Still. The Twins just do not have catching in the high minors…
I frankly do not see it happening.
Delmon’s rankings on the Twins:
3rd in HRs, hits, and runs scored.
4th in RBIs and doubles.
5th in batting average.
Thanks Walter.
(by the way, do you think the twins are a first place team also?)
Delmon’s only weaknesses are defense and hitting the long ball as was hoped. But the Twins should hang on to all four current outfielders until Ben Revere is ready to move up. For a big man, Delmon is surprisingly fleet afoot.
The Twins will keep Punto if for no other reason than Gardy’s attachment to him. But he does have what the Twins are building their team around: (1) speed, (2) defense, and (3) good at-bats. Punto was the only guy in the final game with the White Sox that made the opposing pitchers throw strikes. He got his hacks. Is Punto your everyday SS?
If going outside for a SS, don’t get a headcase (Orlando Cabrera). I’d rather wait and see one of the youngsters compete (Tolbert and Macri) during spring training. Emphasis should be on switch hitting, speed, and a solid glove.
The only troubled position remains 3B. The Twins have plenty of trade chips excluding Delmon: Harris, Buscher, etc. A switch hitter 3B would be ideal.
The relief corps was a major disappointment this year. Aside from Nathan, Neshek, and Mijares, none of the others should feel safe.
Right, Captain. Defense and hitting are weaknesses.
Wait a minute.
What the heck is his strengths then?
Mudcat,
The Twins finished in first place after a full, 162 game schedule.
The White Sox were division champs.
jama,
Choose six categories and we’ll wager the whole six-pick of Canada Dry on them.
Moose40,
Yes, the beauty of the web is that just about anyone can get their stuff published — even you ‘n’ me, pal. My opinion, backed by data: Punto underperformed with runners in scoring position by almost any measure you can find.
Punto pops up way too much with runners on base. Shallow pop ups that never move anyone over.
Delmon was 3rd in hits on the Twins.
Twins were 3rd in hits in MLB.
Delmon was 4th in RBIs on the Twins.
Twins were 4th in RBIs in MLB.
Demon IS the Twins!
I meant “Delmon”. At least I think I did….
Will anyone honestly be upset if our lineup is
Gomez
Casilla
Mauer
Morneau
Kubel
Young
Cuddyer
Uggla
Harris
We can trade span and perkins for uggla and an A prospect. The rotation could still be: Liriano, Slowey, Baker, Blackburn, Humber/Duensing.
This team would be young, have speed, play pretty solid D, and most importantly have power. This team will make a playoff run next year. Then with players like Hughes, valencia, mulvey, revere, plouffe,well have the ammo to make more improvements for cuddyer and at 3rd, at the new stadium.
A switch hitter 3B would be ideal.
not sure that those beasts are growing in any trees As a matter of fact, from all the starters at 3rd in the bigs, only Chipper Jones is a switch hitter
“Will anyone honestly be upset if our lineup is…”
I really don’t want to see Gomez anywhere near the leadoff spot.
uggla batting 8th? yeah right. also, he’s not your prototypical twins defender, and his approach at the plate is swing for the fences or strikeout. not your typical twins hitter either, so that’s not happening.
Switch hitter 3B.
Terry Tiffee - .378, 9-69, OPS=.977 at AAA last year.
Or would you prefer a good MLB switch-hitter 3B?
delmon for adrian beltre makes sense if the twins are going to resign beltre. delmon is under control for 4 more years. there’s no reason to give up 4 years of delmon (who has a whole lot of upside) for one year of beltre beltre would be about 12 million next year, and if the twins were to resign him, somewhere around 12-15 million a year.
Orlando Cabrera of the White Sox seems to be the people’s choice.
Who are you reading? Every blog I have visited has left me with a resounding “No Thanks!” from “the people” whoever they are. And the people are right here. His career OPS plus is just average, He’s not that good in the field. He’s old. He’s expensive (high salary plus two draft picks). And he’s never been well liked in five stops in the majors. If the Twins get him, you can add him to the growing junk heap of Everette, Lamb, Monroe, White, Sierra, Cirillo, Batista, Castro,….
And I’d say Breslow is a lock as well. Otherwise, I agree with everything here.
I still think some team will offer Punto more money than the Twins care to (or should) match.
Nice job Howard, but not as good as your article on FFCC years ago
span and perkins for uggla and an A prospect is overpaying…
Uggla is arbitation eligible this offseason and under club control for 3 years. Both Perkins and Span are under club control for 5 years.
Plus with Maybin in their team, there is not much need for Span by the Marlins. On the other hand they do need pitchers.
I assume that you want Uggla to play 3B, but he played there several years ago in the minors and his fielding percentage was Buscher-like… I wouldn’t mind seeing Uggla (or Cantu for that matter) at DH, though..
I think that Perkins (and maybe an mid-level pitching prospect) might be enough for either of them, but there are better options out there.
here’s what my crystal ball says for Punto:
Punto will sign a 3 year $10-12 mil contract with the BitchSox to replace Orlando Cabrera… Ozzie has almost as much manlove for Punto as Gardie
t: i’d think blackburn, manship and duensing. imo we need to keep the 2nd lh starter. i don’t think you’d want the rotation to be that rh’d. humber or mulvey could probably step in for blackburn, after his start against the sox his value may be at it’s peak.
uggla batting between mauer and morneau or after morneau would be a big addition and for 3 yrs.
Why, may I ask, do the Marlins want to move Dan Uggla?
thyros98,
But Kenny Williams makes the trades and he only has manlove for big, slow, power hitters.
If anyone makes a move for Uggla, it will be the Whiteys.
Okay, looks like someone is trying to do a reverse trade proposal similar to many that commenter’s on these blogs seem to propose all the time. Give someone your cast-off and pull in the big fish. There is value for value there with Youkilis, but no regard to the trading teams needs or wants.
The Twins don’t have a replacement in-house for Mauer and teams won’t trade away a star player without a replacement in the wings unless money is the issue. Right now, money is NOT the issue.
I would think that BS will do more trading this winter, keeping with his wheeling and dealing first winter.
Expect to see some pitching leaving the Twins system this winter, probably even from the major-league roster.
I have long been of the opinion that Cuddy will get the chance at third this coming spring-training, and given the proper opportunity, I fully expect him to win it. The guy is not worried about being demoted like he was his first time around, so he would most likely play loose, instead of pushing. That is a BIG thing for any player. They need to have a comfort level, and as we all know, Gardy can be very hard on young players. Given the chance, I honestly think that Cuddy will pull it off, pretty dang good chance in my mind actually.
the marlins have 3-4 guys who are up for arbitration and they will all get big multi million dollor raises. they don’t spend money and need to get rid of some of these guys to stay in their $1.50 budget.
cmath,
If you go back through my comments recently, there were several Cabrera fans — as well as a post from a White Sox fan (Nellie Fox) who said to stay miles and miles away because he’s a bad guy. I don’t want him, either. I’d rather have Smalley, especially if Coomer’ll play third.
While I won’t say he’s an RBI machine, was the expectation of Punto to produce 100 rbi’s? He’s a bottom third of the order hitter, with hitters like Morneau, Mauer, Kubel and Young (I think Monroe and Lamb were also expected to produce a lot more then they did) on the team, I don’t think Punto was expected to put up a ton of RBI’s.
A question for rbi performance for me would be: Why do the Twins have 2 of the top 10 guys in the American League who hit into double plays? That certainly is an issue, when those names are Joe Mauer (most dp’s from a catcher) and Justin Morneau (2nd most dp’s from a 1b). Those are the guys who are supposed to be hitting the 1 and 2 guys in.
i think they have 7-8 guys first time arbitration $$.
from mlbtraderumor,
The Marlins are one of the intriguing storylines of the upcoming offseason.
The general sense is that they’ll shop Jacobs, Uggla, Willingham, Hermida, Olsen, and Gregg. Those hitters accounted for more than a third of the team’s plate appearances this year. The Marlins want to rebuild the team based on pitching, speed, and defense for ‘09.
gobble,
not 3-4… most of the 25 man roster is arbitration eligible… here is a list:
http://www.fishstripes.com/2008/9/5/608012/the-florida-marlins-arbitr
gobbledygookguy,
Thanks.
To respond to the idea that Twins gave up on David Ortiz too early-no way if David Ortiz had stayed with the Twins would he have become Big Papi. Pretty well covered that when he went to Boston they asked him why he swung the bat the way he did. He said something about the Twins telling him to hit the ball to all field. Red Sox stopped that and soon David Ortiz was just swinging away and hitting HRs.
Not saying Delmon Young would become Big Papi-like, but I would like to see what he can do a few more years. Not sure if the power will come since he will have to hit the “Twins way.”
If the Twinks are going to go after anybody on the Marlins, it should be Hanley Ramirez. Right handed. SS. Power bat. Solid fielding. Pure stud. Send any and everybody in the minor league system to get him.
Alternatively, how about we sack up and see if we can’t let Manny be Manny in Minny?
“At the risk of sounding like Sid,How about making a run at bringing Christian Guzman back? Isn’t he a FA?”
Cristian signed a new two year, $16M contract with the Nats in July.
“Did he look heavier to you too? Do you think it concerns the Twins that big, big brother Dmitri is listed at 300 pounds on the Washington Nationals’ web site?”
Dimitri is also 12 years older than Delmon. He was still playing some OF at 29 for the Tigers (and hitting 29 homers that year).
1234,
Makes sense. You can add power in other places than 3B. You could also get Uggla and move Cassila to SS.
thanks thrylos98, looks like they would like to move the guys at the top who will be making multi millions. i think i’d take gregg and uggla for a bunch of prospects along with a perkins or blackburn plus some cash and a bag of balls.
do you think gregg would be a good 8th inning guy?
Gregg scares me because of a. his mediocre performance when with the Angels and b. because he walks too many people. I think that Crain is better than he is and Neshek will be the RH 8th inning guy (with Mijares being the LH 8th inning guy)
That, said and because I think that the Twins need a starter more than relievers, I’d try to see if the Marlins are willing to take Perkins (+Boof/Humber) for either Rickey Nolasco (the Twins will probably need to send another prospect the Marlins’ way for him) or Josh Johnson…
So Howard what do you see in DY that Smith and Gardy don’t? I’m kind of on the fence with him myself and i think there’s some good young outfielders in the minors that could take his place in the next couple of years so he is expendable.
Let’s see how Neshek is when he comes back. Even if he is physically healthy 100%, there is still the mental aspect. Look at Jesse Crain this year. Also, even before he was injured, he wasn’t finding the same success he did early on. I think a major part of his effectiveness is his quirkiness, which wears off after you’ve been through the league a few times.
Hanley Ramirez signed a 6 yr ext. He is the Marlins building block. Cantu would be great, I like that ideal, but the Marlins want to try and keep him.
I am not crazy about trading a left handed starting pitching or any of our starters for that matter. Perkins came back strong in his last appearance after getting some rest. Blackburn came thru with a outstanding performance against the Whitesox. Pitching and defense.
If Delmon was some Rule 5 pickup or came up through the system, I think there would be a greater possibility the Twins trading him. But considering what the Twins gave up for him, I don’t see them giving up the ship yet. I would wait another year, see how he progresses and make a decision. Unless his numbers drop off dramatically, at worst he will still be (just barely) 24 years old with potential.
And it isn’t just Garza trade. You also have to add all the trades the Twins DIDN’T MAKE over the last couple years because they were unwilling to deal Garza.
Last year the Marlins signed Dallas McPherson to a FA contract. While he was in Triple A he hit 275/42hr/98rbi
The Twins signed Lamb when McPherson was available…
The Marlins always get great value with it being a trade or signings. They would be tough to deal with
Moose40,
Just because someone hits into a lot of double plays does not make them a bad hitter. Look at the other names on the top 10: Guerrero, Ordonez, Jeter…
Also, your earlier argument about Punto and RBIs is completely flawed. You are assuming that all his RBIs came with RISP, which is false.
Surest way to avoid hitting into DP’s?
Strike out!
The issue isn’t Punto at Short, or Young in Left, or Harris/Buscher at third, it is the combination of those and the lack of power in right and the hitting of Gomez. One of those positions needs to be updated, either through growth of gomez and/or Young (I was, and remain, opposed to the trade for Young), or through a change. My target is Brandon Wood. He’d be a great offensive threat at either SS or 3B, is adequate to good defensively at both, and is right handed.
Again, keeping any of those players, in and of themselves is not a bad idea, but keeping all of them as a portfolio of hitters is a bad idea.
To add some more odd stats.
Casilla and Punto both played in almost the same # of games (99 vs. 98). Casilla had 50 RBIs while Punto had 28.
Punto had 93 Plate appearances with RISP and produce 21H, 7BB, 2SF, 3SH and 24 RBIs.
Casilla on the other hand had a grand total of 3 Plate appearances with RISP, going 2 for 2 with 1BB and 1HR and 5RBIs.
Casilla drove in 45 RBIs when they weren’t in scoring position, Morneau only drove in 30.
“Casilla on the other hand had a grand total of 3 Plate appearances with RISP, going 2 for 2 with 1BB and 1HR and 5RBIs.”
Ummm…Casilla had 122 plate appearances with runners in scoring position. He actually hit .253/.310/.354 in those PA. A reminder - Punto hit .265/.315/.349 in 96 PA.
My mistake,
When I filtered by RISP, Twinsbaseball also split it out by position. That is where I got screwed up. He went 2 for 2 with RISP while playing SS.
to argue what is better between a .664 OPS (Casilla) and a .664 OPS (Punto) with RISP is a bit futile, when available alternatives like Furcal had a 1.070 OPS with RISP in 2008 and .787 lifetime…
a lot of the time the ave doesn’t really reflect the quality of the hitter. punto’s ave this yr was decent but very weak and over the yrs he has been a very weak run producer. his rbi per at bats is 13.3 by far the worst on the team. many people like to complain about youmg, 1 every 7.8 ab’s, harris 1 every 9.1 ab’s and gomez 1 every 9.9 ab’s on here and brag up punto. he is a utility guy and not an everyday player he doesn’t produce enough no matter how great you think his fielding is. everett had 20 rbi in 1/3 the at bats but his ave stunk. i’ll take the guy who drives in runs anyday all thing being semi equal.
imo ozzie wants him to play 2nd for the sox and that would be fine with me.
There’s been a lot of talk about how getting Neshek back next year will be big… and that’s only if we’re getting the same Neshek.
Given his delivery was born of necesity due to an injury, I think the Twins would be well served to not count on him as a late inning guy for next year.
You don’t know what kind of impact the injury will have on his ability to be the same pitcher given there’s not necesarily a track record with guys with that unique delivery.
Trade “Swing At The First Pitch Every Time Delmon”. We need a right handed hitting thir baseman with decent power.
“Mauer is the most irreplaceable player in the American league” - Peter Gammons
My trade:
Uggla for Ben Revere/Delmon Young + high Pitching prospect + Busher/harris (to replace Uggla) -
If Marlins want more pitching:
Uggla for Guerra+Ben Revere+ Perkins
thrylos -
2008 salaries :
Alexi Casilla : $390,000?
Nick Punto : $2.4 Million
Rafael Furcal : $13 Million
Furcal played in 36 games this year - he made $361,111 per game. The Twins can’t afford to waste that kind of money on a guy that doesn’t play. It’s really tough to assume that kind of risk. So, if Furcal agrees to a one year deal, I could see making a play for him. He would be an obvious offensive upgrade over our current shortstops.
Perhaps you have answered this before and I just missed it, but what kind of an offer would you give to Furcal to get him?
Swing At The First Pitch Every Time Delmon
this stirred up some memories…
here is a comparison:
Delmon Young this year:
age 22, AB 575, H 167, HR 10, RBI 69, SB 14, BB 35, K 105, BA .290, OBP .336, SLG .405
Mystery Former Twin in his 1st year with the Twins:
age 24, AB 557, H 165, HR 0, RBI 31, SB 14, BB 16, K 69, BA .296, OBP .320, SLG .336
Can you name the mystery Twin?
hint: notorious 1st pitch swinger
Pete D,
check Furcal’s performance during the Cubs’ series and throughout the postseason…
“check Furcal’s performance during the Cubs’ series and throughout the postseason…”
You mean going 4-12 with 4 singles? Sure, I guess that’s nice. Raises his career postseason batting average to a robust .237.
Again - Furcal would be an upgrade over Punto. However - I’m not interested in signing him to a deal of $13 million a year for 3 years like his current deal. A one year, heavily incentive laden deal? Sure. I might even give him 2 years if he dropped his per year even more. I guess I just don’t see him doing that.
“keeping all of them as a portfolio of hitters is a bad idea.”
mike,
The 2008 Twins scored the third highest number of runs for a season, in the 47 year history of the team! That’s plenty of runs. They need to improve the fielding and pitching. They might have to sacrifice some of their great hitting to improve the fielding.
alright,
let’s assume that Furcal is not realistic. Given the facts that:
a. Cabrera at 34 and Rentaria at 34 will give about the same production as a Punto or a Tolbert or a Harris
b. a big RH bat (at 3B) is a bigger priority than a SS
and
c. a trade for a SS will be centered around a starting pitcher (Perkins/Blackburn) as will one for a 3B and the Twins should not give more than one away
what would you do at SS?
My preference (if they get a good fielding power hitting RH 3B) would be to let Tolbert/Harris/Plouffe fight for it…
“Last year the Marlins signed Dallas McPherson to a FA contract. While he was in Triple A he hit 275/42hr/98rbi”
No offense intended, Janet, but Dallas McPherson is an awful major league player.
Assistant GM Rob Antony has said the Twins don’t care about HR. He said they look at run production.
Terry Ryan has said the same thing for years. Though Terry is no longer GM, that philosophy remains intact, and it’s a good one.
Not really about the options you throw our there Howard.
Delmon Young is going to be the starting left fielder for the Twins. I can’t see him being traded it doesn’t make any sense for the Twins to trade him. He has a low Salary-Young and Talented-Played a great 2nd half.
Glen Perkins and Nick Blackburn should be trade bait. They are overvalued right now. Both had way better seasons then their stuff would indicate. Their strike out rates were not impressive nor were the amount of hits they gave up.
I’d trade Perkins-Bonser-Hughes for Brian Roberts of the Orioles. He makes 8 million next year and then he is a free agent. He posts 385 OBP can steal 35 bases hits 290-300 and scores about 110 runs a year AND plays solid defense at 2B.
You obviously let Reyes go he isn’t very good and he will probably get 3 million a year. I do agree to let Punto go as he makes about 2.4 million this year. Tolbert can do what he does for 400k a year.
You also should let Guerrier go. He will have arbitration again and he will probably make 1.5-2 million next year. He’s washed up.
The only free agent I’d forsure go out and get (and overspend) is Jeremy Affeldt. He can be a spot starter but more importantly a good 6th-7th inning guy. He strikes out a good number of hitters and has good stuff. He probably will command 3 years 12 million. Probably not the Twins style but he’s be an upgrade.
The Twins might consider a 1 or 2 year deal for Jamie Moyer as well at 9 or 10 million a year. This would put them around 80 million for payroll through so it’s probably too much. But he would be a REAL veteren to have at the 3rd or 4th starting spot. He had another good year in the NL. 120ks sub 4 ERA and pitched a lot of innings.
In any case besides those moves the Twins won 88 games and I could see improvement with no changes. Delmon Young is a future All-Star. At only 22 he is young but he had a much better 2nd half. I think Gomez will also improve. He probably shouldn’t have spent the full year in the majors but I don’t think it hurt him as a player.
You move Casilla over to SS and have him play there with Harris and Tolbert taking some of this time. You keep Buscher at 3rd base with Harris taking some of his time. You just deal with the throws. 2B is anchored by Roberts with Morneau at 1B. You have Mauer at Catcher. Young at LF, Gomez at CF and Span at RF. Yes Span I’m still not sold but he really had a good year. Cuddyer would be the 4th outfielder and share DH time with Kubel. Baker-Liriano-Slowey-Blacburn-Moyer would be great. If not Moyer i’d give Mulvey or Duensing a try. Nathan-Neshek-Affledt-Crain-Mijares-Humber-Breslow in the bullpen. I think Humber would be a great addition in long relief. Tolbert, Redmend (pickup his option at 900k) Cuddyer and Harris on the bench. I think playoffs is a guarantee with that roster.
Cabrera is a waste at Short Stop. Put aside for a moment that he plays an awfull SS. His OBP was 334 and he hit 8 home runs. So he doesn’t get on base much 340 being an average OBP and he doesn’t hit for power. Now lets bring back that he can’t field. What do you have? A guy who makes 10 million a year but gives you no upgrade at short-stop. Twins need a guy who can either really hit them out or who can get on base a lot. Beltre or Roberts come to mind, although Beltre is risky. He can really suck and he didnt provide that much power. Roberts has a proven track record. I don’t like Garrett Atkins either. He has a bad year and his road splits are terrible.
“Cuddyer and Harris on the bench.”
Unless Cuddy is hurt, he isn’t going to be on the bench. He expects to play RF almost every day. Gardy loves Cuddy, so Cuddy definitely plays.
Craig,
I was pointing out that he would have been a better try for little cost than what Lamb gave us at an huge cost
Janet,
Okay, I understand your point.
“…the Twins don’t care about HR…they look at run production…that philosophy remains intact, and it’s a good one.”
No. No, it’s not a good philosophy.
Ignoring HRs means the team philosophy, by definition, does NOT focus on run production.
HR’s are not the only componant of scoring runs, nor even the most important.
But in the long run there are two primary componants to scoring runs: getting on base, and hitting for power. Ignoring one or the other–and at times the Twins seem to ignore both–is not a recipe for long term success.
Spare me the “Twins scored the third most runs in history” crap, too. While true, it ignores the longer term history of the offense, or more accurately, HIGHLIGHTS the long term history of this club. If 840 runs, or whatever the team put up this year, is the third most in their history, that’s a sign of a long term problem, not an indicator of sustained success.
I have little doubt that, left intact, this team as currently constructed would not score 800 runs again next year.
And a big part of the reason for that is the lack of power on the team. HR’s, doubles, whatever. They need to hit for extra bases more, and throughout more of the lineup, going forward. You won’t get that when 5, 6, 7 or more of the hitters in the lineup have so little power.
“Mystery Former Twin in his 1st year with the Twins:
age 24, AB 557, H 165, HR 0, RBI 31, SB 14, BB 16, K 69, BA .296, OBP .320, SLG .336″
Looks like Kirby’s stats from 1984?
East Coast Twin,
absolutely…
I hope that people put Young’s numbers in perspective now
Chief,
Terry Ryan called the 801 runs the Twins scored in 2006 “Plenty of runs”.
The Twins scored 829 runs this year. Third highest in the league. Only Boston and Texas scored more. They also were dead last in the league in HR. As long as they score, it doesn’t matter how they do it.
I agree…as long as they score, it doesn’t matter how they do it.
The question is, will they be able to score 800 runs again next year if they are near the bottom of the league in HRs.
I’m betting against it.
Sort of like 2006’s ‘plenty of runs’ turned into 2007’s dismal offense.
Mystery Former Twin in his 1st full year with the Twins:
154 - Games
569 - AB
89 - Runs
170 - Hits
31 - 2B
4 - 3B
15 - Home Runs
72 - RBI
20 - Stolen Bases
.299 - AVG
.381 - OBP
.446 - SLG
.827 - OPS
Craig,
you got it about half right… here are the runs scored and given as well as the finish in the division by year in the Gardy era:
2008: Scored 829 runs, Allowed 745 runs (2nd)
2007: Scored 718 runs, Allowed 725 runs (3rd)
2006: Scored 801 runs, Allowed 683 runs (1st)
2005: Scored 688 runs, Allowed 662 runs (3rd)
2004: Scored 780 runs, Allowed 715 runs (1st)
2003: Scored 801 runs, Allowed 758 runs (1st)*
2002: Scored 768 runs, Allowed 712 runs (1st)
The problem is that this year they did give up way too many runs. The closest to this team was the 2003 AL Central Champion team, but then Detroit had 119 loses, Cleveland 94 and 3 more teams in the league had more than 90 loses.
In 2008, the worse team in the division had 88 loses and only 2 teams in the AL had more than 90.
That is the difference.
Starting pitching and defense were lacking this season; getting Liriano instead of Livan helped the last 2 months. Defense has to be emphasized in the off season.
Craig,
that was his second year when he was 25 years old… Delmon is 22… remember?
thrylos,
What did I get half right?
Chief,
I know what you are saying. In order to score without power, the team needs to have a lot of guys in succession hit for high AVG, or have a high OBP. Speed helps.
Too many weak links, and the runs don’t cross the plate.
thrylos,
It was his 1st full season. He had only 73 AB the year before.
Craig,
the half non-right part of the equation is that this team gave up the most runs since 2003. You can score 1000 runs, but if you give up 990, it’s hard to compete (ask the Vikings if you don’t believe me)
nope… here:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/puckeki01.shtml
Puck’s first season in 1994 (at 24) was worse than Young’s last season (at 22).
thrylos,
Is the half non right part what I wrote below?
——————————————————————————–
The New and Improved Craig says:
October 7th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
“keeping all of them as a portfolio of hitters is a bad idea.”
mike,
The 2008 Twins scored the third highest number of runs for a season, in the 47 year history of the team! That’s plenty of runs. They need to improve the fielding and pitching. They might have to sacrifice some of their great hitting to improve the fielding.
——————————————————————————–
“They need to improve the fielding and pitching.” - Is this the half wrong part????
Delmon’s hitting should improve, IF he works at it. Delmon’s fielding should improve, IF he works at it. Sometimes Delmon seems indifferent in the field. That isn’t going to please the Twins. I think if they switched him to RF, and he worked hard at it, he could become an adequate fielder.
Delmon should be the every day RF next year. The reason that the Twins put him in the LF last season was that they wanted to hide the every day deficiencies of Cuddyer at RF. Cuddyer was the second worse RF in 2007 as far as plus/minus goes:
( http://www.billjamesonline.net/fieldingbible/charts/leaders2-07.gif )
what beats me is the fact that when Span was up and Cuddy was nursing one kind of an injury or another, Young was not moved to RF allowing Span to be the everyday LF…
Craig,
the half wrong part is not mentioning them together…
We are (kind of) on the same page as far as that goes, but you cut half of the page and…
“what beats me is the fact that when Span was up and Cuddy was nursing one kind of an injury or another, Young was not moved to RF allowing Span to be the everyday LF…”
Beats me as well. I think Gomez and Span are interchangeable in LF or CF. Gardy can choose. I’d prefer Span in CF, but I’m just fine with him in LF and Gomez in CF.
If Delmon is in RF, what do you do with Cuddy? I doubt if you can trade that contract.
the Twins ate a lot of money this season. If they eat 50% of Cuddy’s contract, he is tradeable…
How about this plan: Let Cuddy start in RF and have Young and Kubel split the DH duties. Once Cuddy establishes that he can hit and play in the field, the Twins trade him. Say, 1 month into the season. Problem is, Cuddy is almost always a slow starter.
“what would you do at SS?
My preference (if they get a good fielding power hitting RH 3B) would be to let Tolbert/Harris/Plouffe fight for it…”
Honestly? I think you improve second base, and move Casilla over. I am intrigued by the Brian Roberts idea. Perhaps make a play for Orlando Hudson. I just think it would be easier to upgrade there than it would be at shortstop.
As for third base, I am fine with a Buscher/Harris platoon. I might even just give the job to Harris. I’m not in the camp that feels the Twins need to add another power bat to the lineup. Would it be nice? Sure. But I don’t want to sacrifice a lot of defense to get it. Beltre is an interesting name, and he brings some glove with his bat. But guys like Blalock? No thanks.
So, because it worked this year, it is likely that they’ll bat historically better than ANY team in history with RISP compared to their normal batting average, is that everyone’s contention? That they can be historically good two years in a row? That slugging percentage is irrelevant? That over 100 years of stats are bunk?
thyros98 & East Coast Twin,
Are you implying that Delmon should start hitting the juice this offseason?
I really hope the Twins don’t give up on Delmon. His “attitude problems” are just hype by the media (see Reusse, Patrick, and Souhan, Jim). He did look slower towards the end of the season but he had a bum ankle. And his defense was BETTER during the last couple months.
I find it highly unlikely that the Twins would move Delmon Young after only one season. The more likely option is trading either Jason Kubel or Michael Cuddyer. A tough decision no doubt. Though Cuddyer is more reliable and a great clubhouse guy, I don’t think Gardy will part with Kubel’s left-handed power potential. If the Twins aren’t willing to look at Cuddyer at third base, then he should be the odd man out. Cuddyer, then, would be the primary player in trading for a solid third baseman. The bullpen, though, is still the #1 priority.
Are you implying that Delmon should start hitting the juice this offseason?
nope.
Have you seen the length of the home runs that Young has hit this season? Have you seen or heard about what he does in batting practice?
I think he’s got to relax at the plate and do what he needs to do. He has been pressing (not sure if it is Vavra’s instructions buzzing on his ears or what?) on the plate. When he is relaxed he is fine…
thrylos, did you see that bomb Delmon hit behind Kubel’s HR in the final series against the White Sox? I hadn’t seen a home run hit that far in the Dome since Jim Thome faced Rick Reed.
JimCrikit, faithful and T : Wow, you all blasted me yesterday on Christenson’s blog for saying Delmon has underperformed, has rubbed the coaching staff the wrong way and should be traded because he still has some perceived value. Its interesting that Howard is picking all those vibes up from the team.
We SHOULD trade Delmon - his liabilities outweigh his potential. Get something for him before other teams figure out he doesn’t have the upside we had hoped for. We need a solution in other key areas much more and have a surplus in the OF…. go for it !!!!!
“My preference (if they get a good fielding power hitting RH 3B) would be to let Tolbert/Harris/Plouffe fight for it…”
If THOSE three fight for the SS job, the losers will be the Twins pitchers, the Twins fans and the Twins W-L record.
None of the three are even average MLB shortstops and all three should be playing (primarily) other positions.
Casilla at SS, Harris-Buscher-Plouffe at 3B and Tolbert-Punto-Trade Acquisition at 2B would be MY overwhelming preference.
Quote from T on Joe C’s blog yesterday re: my comment to trade Delmon:
“If that’s seriously the best argument you have, you’ve lost. Go home, let the people who know what they’re talking about discuss baseball.”
Okay, Howard brought it up today. Should he go home too and let us all sit back and just listen to you experts?!?
Thanks for the humor T !!
Agree, sane. An infield of Harris, Casilla, Tolbert, and Morneau, would be serviceable. Might not make your heart race and put fear in the opponents, but whatever.
Where does Brian Buscher fit into the Twins plans? A light-hitting LH infielder whose best position is 1B or DH? I know they like his attitude, but they liked Rondell White’s attitude too.
Delmon should platoon DH with Kubel - he is way too much a liability in the field. And he will only get worse as he ages and most likely gains weight. Best to convert him sooner than later.
As a DH only he can focus on driving the ball to hit for more power. If he can’t find the power swing, then he’s not a DH either and yes we should trade him.
However, after his issue in the minor leagues and then being traded twice in his first two major league seasons, realize that he will be recognized as a player with significant baggage and we may not get much in return.
Skip T’s #1 mission in life is to be “Blog Monitor” on Startribune.com
we rely on him to keep us on the straight and narrow
Why no mention of Casilla at short? I believe that is his “natural” position.
Plus - regarding Neshek - the Twinks have had 2 pitchers in recent years with unorthodox or dangerous deliveries - Neshek and Liriano. Surgery for both. My gut tells me that Liriano has a better chance for long-term health than does Neshek - and that Liriano at 90% of his past self is a quality starter, whereas Neshek at 90% spells “have a nice year in Japan”.
[…] Howard Sinker has a few ideas on how to make things better in […]
One problem, IMO, with those who say the Twins score enough runs (based on last years production) is that their flawed roster/approach makes those runs dry up when in the playoffs of meaningful regular season games. There are exceptions (usually when in the dome) but the 163rd game or most any game at Yankee Stadium or the first two games at Fenway or when under pressure like the KC series to end the season. They have no power and no patience from those potential power hitters. That is what it takes in games when you can’t take advantage of bad opposing pitchers or waiting for the other team to make errors. This post season has been a perfect example of that. So they may not need to increase their total runs output but the Twins do need to add diversity in the way they can get them or risk becoming a one trick pony.
Howard,
From reading many of the posts here and elsewhere on the Strib I don’t get the same “sense” that OC is the people’s choice for short. Just the opposite. I’d be more in the trade for a Hardy camp. More pop, better contract and less baggage. Save the money to get a 3rd/RH hitter or bullpen help. SS doesn’t need to come only via FA just as it doesn’t in getting a Beltre. Brewers are in dire need of a young pithcer and they have a SS they are ready to promote. It’s a lot cheaper than what Furcal or Cabrera will cost. And in the end we know that’s what it about with the Twins.
Reyes has got to go. Dont worry boys , they will all play better in there new open air stadium. What a joke, no roof in Minnesota.
While trading Delmon would be a good way of showing the “fans” that they are willing to admit mistakes…I don’t think Young WAS a mistake.
While Garza has earned his keep in Tampa Bay, I STILL don’t get why people miss Bartlett. He and Punto put up almost identical numbers in ‘08 (Punto actually coming out on top in SLG, AVG, OBP)…
The only reason people seem to miss Bartlett is because of this bizarre fixation the TB media has on him. I mean seriously…Barltett as team MVP when you’ve got LONGORIA?! Absurd.
Young didn’t meet expectations, but you have to admit some of those expecations were pretty lofty. I figured 20 dingers, but there were some forseeing 30-40?
Who knows, maybe there is something behind the scenes that we fans don’t know about. But I think dealing Delmon Young would be an ACTUAL mistake comparred to the mistake people thought bringing him here was.
I love Cuddyer’s attitude, and he did a LOT for this team in 2006. But 2007 he had an off year and then spent all of 2008 injured. Giving up Young to go with Cuddy in the outfield is essentially trading the potential to mature for potential to come back healthy.
As far as the rest of the lineup. Punto gets a thank you for 2006, and a pat on the back for 2008. But if he doesn’t accept a paycut and a move to bench…then he can do whatever on the market. Much like Reyes, somebody will overpay Punto.
I wasn’t high on getting Hawkins based on his numbers. Then he gets traded somewhere else and puts up some impressive stats. Based on his second half, it could be worth bringing him in for a 6th/7th inning type role (I don’t want him near the 8th inning anymore than I wanted Guardado)
Does anybody think Jon Garland could be a good pickup provided he doesn’t get sucked into the vacuum that’ll open once the Sabathia bidding war ends?
If he is, that opens up the Twins to be able to deal a starter for potential 3B help. Out of all the options Howard provided, Kouz/Beltre would be the best…Atkins was a trendy pick, but I agree with concerns on his road/home splits.
Okay, Howard brought it up today. Should he go home too and let us all sit back and just listen to you experts?!?
Another fine example of poor reading comprehension, as well as a great demonstration of cherry picking quotes that seems to be so common with some people around here.
Well I was going to try and keep from getting too into it with anybody…but since I’ve been called out. Might as well set the record straight.
Skip, let’s go back to that post and actually read the whole thing.
The original comment (which Skip didn’t reference):
“If DY did pretty much what was expected - than we should be content with not being a playoff caliber team. Minnesota mentality once again~“
The opening to my post (that Skip so conveniently left out):
“This argument needs to be put to bed…it’s tired.
To say that FO, fans, players, etc, have no desire to make it to the postseason is 100% bulls**t. There isn’t a single person in an organization that doesn’t benefit from postseason play.”
I do so love the aversion to facts that some people have around here.
A few quick responses because there’s no other baseball today:
Kirby91: Upon further review, “the people’s choice” was too strong a term. “Some people’s choice” would be more appropriate. I think he’s a bad idea.
Jemmer: Moving Casilla to short next year is a good idea, in theory. But I don’t see him being ready to assume the “captain’s” role in the infield.
Chris: Trading Cuddy or Kubel? Cuddy has little value right now and Kubel is the only serious HR threat beyond Morneau.
Thrylos98(not PeteD — see below): You really want to settle for Tolbert, Harris and Plouffe fighting it out for shortstop? I can already hear the chanting, “We want Punto!”
Howard -
I don’t want to settle for Tolbert, Harris, and Plouffe at shortstop. I was quoting thrylos’ post at 5:13. With the way that Punto played this year, and for the money I expect to go to guys like Furcal, Cabrera, Hudson, and Renteria, I wouldn’t be too shocked if Punto is back, and ends up starting at short for the Twins next season. What other realistic options are there? I hope the organization is wise enough not to get locked into a terrible contract with a player on the downside of their career.
I was actually discussing this with a friend last night, and I think the best option, even though it has been one that I have railed against all season, is to move Cuddyer back to third. He’s a right handed bat, has a little bit of power, and his defense isn’t worse than Buscher’s. The Twins aren’t forced to give up any young talent to get a Beltre or a Blalock, he can play multiple positions, and you have Harris and Buscher there to back him up. It just makes the most sense.
It’s not just bad luck or a coincidence Punto only posted 28 RBI’s this year, and 25 RBI’s in 2007. All you need to do is see the guy swing the bat. That answers everything. Someone shoved a stat in my face that Punto had a respectable batting average with RISP, however, since he has no threat of power, the outfielders are more like rovers and play shallow, and there is little chance runners can score from 2nd base even if he does get a hit. Now that is a HUGE negative.
Twins should really trade some young pitching for young hitting. The Twins sat on JD Durbin and Adam Johnson. Yeah, how did that turn out for them?
I have to admit that my eyes got a bit blurry late yesterday afternoon and I quit checking back here to read comments, so pardon me if this is repetitive…
With the Padres apparently entering fire-sale mode, they seem like a pretty logical trade partner for the Twins. Sure, there have been suggestions about making a deal for Kousmanoff to play 3B, but the Pads’ GM is now apparently openly willing to listen to offers for Jake Peavy.
Peavy is under contract for several more years, with a heavily backend-loaded deal that wouldn’t get TOO expensive until after the Twins are well in to their new ballpark.
I love our young pitchers as much as the next guy… but does anyone honestly see a liegitimate, can’t miss #1 starter in that group?
San Diego would get plenty of interest in Peavy and the resulting bidding war could make the price, in talent, pretty hard for the Twins to swallow… but I’d sure like to see them investigate the possibilities.
It just seems like the Twins are one organization that has the young talent (not only MLB-ready, but actually MLB-experienced) that San Diego would demand for a Peavy-Kouzmanoff package.
Acid test for Delmon:
A player needs to be one of a few things to be a driving force on a playoff caliber team -
First, he could be a good position player. In Delmon’s case, we know he isn’t. He’s already stiff and lumbering and doesn’t read balls well. He is young, but will only get less agile as he grows older (and possibly larger…he has the build and family genetics for that).
Second, a player who is a bad fielder could be a DH if they exhibit good power. The jury is out on this one. Give him a chance to platoon at DH with Kubel next year and concentrate on just hitting and driving for more power. If he can’t do that … then -
He is nothing more than a overall below average player. Not someone a playoff contending team should have taking up a spot on the roster. Especially when a coaching staff is indicating he’s not the easiset guy to work with.
Delmon could end up being a starter somewhere as a .290 hitter with 10 home runs on a team like Seattle or Kansas City or some other perennial rebuilding team.
That’s why I say the Twins should seriously look at any trade possibilities for him now before other teams realize he may not be that good or with that high of a ceiling.
If I were the GM and could include him in a trade for someone that would legitimately fill one of the gaping needs that Howard outlined for the team in ‘09 - I would pull the trigger now.
So we have a glut of outfielders and some AAAA-caliber pitching right now. We need a SS and 3B badly. Here’s what Bill Smith should do:
1. Sign Casey Blake to 2 yr. (3rd yr option). He’ll come back to MN and stabilize 3B and provide a solid 5-7 hole hitter
2. Trade Delmon Young and Boof Bonser (maybe a 3rd low prospect) to Baltimore for Brian Roberts. Baltimore gets young hitting and pitching, Twins shore up 2B. Sign Roberts to an extension ASAP. You have to think that McPhail would do business with us!
3. Move Alexi Casilla back to SS, which is his natural position.
Now, here’s your line-up. This would be a great Dome hitting team (speed, tur-hitting) and 2010 team (can still drive the ball, speed, etc.):
LF Span
2B Roberts
C Mauer
1B Morneau
3B Blake
DH Kubel
RF Cuddyer
CF Gomez
SS Casilla
Better defense all around, better pop throughout the whole line-up, great clubhouse guys, keeps the speed rolling with 8-9-1-2 spots in lineup.
This keeps the entire starting rotation together:
Baker
Liriano
Slowey
Perkins
Blackburn
Relief pitchers will be fairly solid as well, bring up a AAA guy to fill Bonser’s spot and hopefully Crain and Guerrier come around in ‘09:
Nathan
Crain
Guerrier
Humber
Neshek
Korecky
Breslow
Mijares
Bench can be any number of players, but we definitely DO NOT NEED Punto!
C Redmond
2B, 3B, SS Tolbert or Harris
3B, 1B Buscher
OF (maybe?) Pridie or another bargain bin free agent
They shouldn’t trade any OF. Remember last year? Injuries happen, depth is good, and who is next in line as a replacement? Pridie? No thanks.
Fill one of these 3 positions with a RH 15+ HR guy and I’ll be happy: 2B, SS, 3B. However, Howard’s onto something that Casilla isn’t exactly a captain of the infield. I’m intrigued by JJ Hardy.
I don’t see the Twins signing any big name free agents. Why? Because the big names are in high demand and get overpaid. A trade is far more likely.
Somebody said Uggla to CWS. That makes almost too much sense. Power hitter with ugly defence and they need a 2B…
If:
1) Punto is NOT re-signed and;
2) if Everett is let go; and;
3) if Casilla is NOT moved to SS;
THE TWINS WILL HAVE NO ADEQUATE MLB SHORTSTOPS.
They will be trying to make a trade in a no-leverage, desperate situation, so at least one of the three must be put/left at shortstop before the offseason progresses too far.
Howard,
it was me who said that I would not mind seeing Harris/Plouffe/Tolbert fight it out for SS if the Twins sign a power RH 3B with good fielding and a power DH bat (because the latter should be the priorities and not SS)
The center defensive positions (C, SS, 2B, CF) are traditionally defense first. The Twins are blessed to have an offensive catcher who allows the team to carry a non-traditional corner OF (Span). The team has no power RH batters (unless Young and Gomez develop overnight) and the 3B primarily and DH spot are probably the only places to fit them.
By itself, the statement sounds inane, but in context, I think that it makes sense: If you get 20-30 more runs from 3B and 20-30 more runs from the DH, you can afford to stay flat at SS.
to all Delmon Young haters
In what way has Delmon young been a failure? Okay, he takes awkward routes to flyballs sometimes. He hasn’t hit for tremendous power… yet. He’s not very outgoing in postgame interviews. Big deal. I’ve seen seen the term “clubhouse cancer” tossed around. In what way is he a clubhouse cancer? I would like to see a link to a verified quote, saying that he was a source of dissent or resentment in the clubhouse. For crying out loud, he just had a pretty good year as a 22 year old, showing some improvement in his second year of major league baseball. He will be a star. So he isn’t outgoing, and isn’t a defensive wonder. Big deal. It’s a tradeoff you have to be willing to make, in order to have big time talent. See, ego can manifest itself a couple of ways, with good major league ballplayers. You can get lucky, and have players whose ego says, “I’m a damn good ballplayer, so whether I like it or not, I am a team leader, and a face of this franchise”, like what the Twins have in Justin Morneau or Joe Mauer, or, you can get a little less lucky, and have a player whose ego says, “I’m a damn good ballplayer, and i’m doing my part, everyone else be damned”. In either case, you have a good player on your team, and should not complain unless that player becomes a super huge headache, as was the case with Manny this year in Boston, and has been the case with Jeff Kent his whole carreer, to name 2 examples. So Delmon isn’t Mauer or Morneau, so what. Neither is he Kent or Manny, attitude-wise. The twins being overly picky about the attitude of a good player, who does more good than harm on this team, is like a fat kid in highschool turning down a prom date with a good looking girl, because he’s holding out for the prom queen. If the Twins trade Delmon this winter, a few years from now, the same people that would applaud that move would be the same people pissing and moaning because the Twins traded him. Like George Zimmer, I guarantee it.
sane,
I assume that you are talking about defense when you are talking about inadequate SS. Is this correct?
Last year Harris made more plays OOZ and had fewer errors at SS than Punto and Tolbert’s RZR was about league average at SS.
Another direction would be to go with a good fielding SS who is inexpensive like Marc Scutaro or Alfredo Amezaga (or even Everett). I just don’t think that they should shell $4+ mil a year at SS, because a. there are higher priorities and b. an expensive SS (unless his name is Ramirez) will not have the impact a couple of power RH bats at 3B and DH will have…
FRYDOG:
“He is nothing more than a overall below average player. Not someone a playoff contending team should have taking up a spot on the roster.”
I always thought that also, and Tampa Bay kind of proved the last part. But a two year player who has a 90+ rbi year and a .290 BA year, it would be dumb to give up on him and have to watch him put up those numbers elsewhere.
No one can be 100% sure of a trade and how people will turn out - you take a chance in any transaction. I just think that this team needs at least 1 more true power hitter to contend. The Twins have too low power numbers at the corner OF spots and 3B. If Delmon could get to 20-25 HR’s and 100 RBI - he’d be the guy. But I think you have to hedge your bet with him and platoon him at DH and part-time OF…he really shouldn’t be in Left every day.
I’m still not too intrigued by that prospect and again if could trade him for one of the 2-3 holes on this team I would. The peak of the core of this team is the next 3 years or so. We need to try to fill the gaps and if DY could be trade bait to do that, I’d still take the chance.
MudCat :
“I always thought that also, and Tampa Bay kind of proved the last part. ”
In what way did Tampa prove that? Just because he was on the roster last year and not this year?
Delmon Young hit .288/.316/.408 last year for Tampa. He was not the reason they went 66-96, nor is getting rid of him the reason they went 97-65 this year. I would assume the main reason in the turn around is the fact that the team ERA dropped from 5.53 in 2007 to 3.82 this year. In fact, the Rays scored fewer runs this year without Delmon than they did last year with him. But they also allowed 270 fewer runs. And I don’t think you want to pin all 270 of those on Delmon.
Twins should really trade some young pitching for young hitting.
That’s what they did with Garza and Young.
And I don’t think you want to pin all 270 of those on Delmon.
*insert obligatory joke re: Young’s fielding* 
As far as Casey Blake goes…I’d love to see him in a Twins uni, but I get the feeling the Dodgers really like him (especially Torre, who’s credited Blake a lot with the Dodgers making it to the postseason). If they continue to do well in the playoffs, I’d expect them to resign him. (especially if they end up letting Manny walk)
If I’m the Twins, I’m looking at teams that are no longer playing first. Because as we often see, playoff performance can sometimes completely change a player’s value (see Ellsbury, Jacoby).
I think the Twins could trade Delmon IF they get something good for him. Not because he’s a bad player. Because he’s a good player with better potential, but with the emergence of Span, they want to go with an outfield of Span-Gomez-Cuddyer. Because of Cuddyer’s contract. And maybe because they’ve decided to keep Kubel and he’ll need some starts in the outfield. So they might dangle Delmon out there and see what they can get. Fill a need elsewhere. That scenario would make sense to me. Not the scenario where they want to trade Delmon, no matter what, because he’s a major flop or “uncoachable”.
thrylos98,
Yes, I was referring to DEFENSIVE shortstops.
Harris and Tolbert are not MLB shortstops, regardless of the defensive stats which have never adequately evaluated defensive skills.
Harris has failed with the Rays and Twins at SS despite being a good hitting infielder. Tolbert was signed as a second-baseman. Neither have the skills to be a MLB DEFENSIVE SS, regardless of what defensive metrics say.
The Rays organization picked Bartlett as MVP over Longoria (unbelievable), Navarro (All-Star), Iwamura (91 runs scored) and Pena (102 RBI), solely because he replaced Harris as the DEFENSIVE SS.
No one associated with the Rays or Twins truly believes that Harris is a MLB SS, regardless of the metrics.
Tolbert has been a 2B most of his career because he apparently did not demonstrate SS skills and tools, while playing 2B and SS.
I have more faith in baseball insiders visual evaluation (and in my own) than I have in any fielding metric yet devised.
I realize Beltre has had the offseason surgery and is more expensive than Blake. But he is 5 years younger too. Both players have decent numbers - what’s your preference and why…?
Beltre vs. Blake is not even close:
Beltre has more power, is younger, is a much better fielder and the Twins will have only one year commitment to him, allowing them to potentially bring up Valencia in 2010.
The only thing that is advantageous to Blake is that he will not cost the Twins any players.
There are other 2 3B that like Beltre are RH bats with power, good defense, are in the last year of their contracts and might be available: Glaus and Rolen. The Twins should have a look at those 2 if they cannot swing a trade for Beltre…
thrylos: I’ve heard Glaus’ name a lot, but hasn’t he also had health issues during his time with the Cards/Jays…
If you just want to make it to Valencia being ready, how about Melvin Mora? What’s his contract like?
If the Twins feel they have the long term solution at 3B in Valencia, it makes both Blake and Beltre dubious options, for different reasons.
We already know the M’s overvalue their players so they’re going to want more than what the Twins will (or should) be willing to pony up for one year of Beltre.
Blake’s a FA and while that means the Twins would not have to let go of talent to get him, it also means there will be competition for his services, including teams willing to give him a longer term commitment than the Twins would be comfortable with.
If the M’s were reasonable in their expectations, Beltre would be my choice, between the two. Younger and, if he’s healthy, better defender. But “reasonable” is not something anyone should expect from the M’s right now, so if the Twins could make a deal with Blake that would not involve so much long term money that he would be untradeable in a year or two, he would probably make more sense.
I honestly just don’t see either of them being likely Twins in 2009. Of course, if Valencia flops in the Az Fall League, that might change the Twins’ thinking a bit.
As for Mora, I thought he might have made some sense for the Twins at the trade deadline but for all the Beltre talk, you never really heard Mora mentioned. Of course, the O’s seem to play hardball on what they want for their players, too. That means the trick, again, would be to avoid giving up more talent than a one year rental should warrant.
HERE IS THE STARTING LINEUP FOR THE 09 MINNESOTA TWINS WITH WORLD SERIES IN THE MAKING
1. CENTERFIELD SPAN
2. 2ND BASEMAN UGGLA
3. CATCHER MAUER
4. SS J.J. HARDY
5. FIRST BASE MORNEAU
6. THIRD BASE ATKINS
7. LF YOUNG
8. DH GARRET JONES
9 RF GOMEZ
TRADE KUBEL,RUIZ,MACRI,ALEXI,BONSER,SWARZAK,BRENDON HARRIS, ANOTHER AAA PITCHER FOR THE SS 3RD BASEMAN AND 2ND BASEMAN ADDITIONS. KEEP THE FIVE MAN ROTATION IN TACT, AND FOR THE BULLPEN BRING UP FROM WITHIN. THE THREE ADDITIONAL INFIELDS CREATES PLENTY OF POWER AND SPEED. WORLD SERIES HERE WE COME.
LEON JOE CROOKS
Also interested to get opinions on Brendan Harris. The Twins are working on potential solutions for the left side of the infield, but Harris doesn’t seem to be a starting option at all. If Punto is re-signed and Tolbert makes the squad again - does Harris really have a role with this team? Seems like odd man out but is there any trade value with him either?
Fry Dog,
Harris’s role is at 3B, by himself or platooning with Buscher (if Buscher can play defense).
Harris should play SS only in case two shortstops ahead of him are disabled.
ALSO, FURTHERMORE DO WE USE MIKE REDMOND FOR TRADE BAIT, SINCE WE HAVE MORALES AND JORGENSON. IN THE MINORS. FURTHERMORE DO WE ALSO USE RUIZ AND KUBEL FOR TRADE BAIT SINCE WE HAVE GARRET JONES TO DH LF AND 1 BASE BACK UP. WE ALSO COULD USE ON OUTFIELDER FOR TRADE BAIT SINCE WE HAVE PRIDDIE, MCDONALD AND REVEREE IN THE MINORS. LET US ADD SOME POP TO THE INFIELD CHEMISTRY
AND NOT ADD ANY WASHED UP VETERANS THAT CAN NOT PRODUCE, IF MONEY WAS NOT AN OBJECT WHAT TEAM WOULD YOU PUT TOGETHER TO CREATE A DYNASTY AND WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS.
Mora is signed up to next year ($9M) with an one year option for 2010 and has no trade clause. He will be 37 on opening day, a bit too old for a starting 3B, his defense is barely adequate (think Mike Lamb), plus he is short, turning line drives into doubles. Also, I am not sure how available he might be. I definitely would put him at the second group of 3B with Kuzmanoff, Atkins, Blake etc, rather than the first (Beltre, Glaus, Rolen)
Glaus has a brief shoulder issue that did not really hurt his production (27 HR, 99 RBI) last year
LJC,
one of the problems with your argument is that: Kubel, Ruiz, Macri, Casilla, Harris and Swarzak will not bring back J.J. Hardy, Garrett Atkins and Dan Uggla…
Another problem is that there is not a place really in NL teams for someone like Kubel & Colorado, Florida and Milwaukee are really hurting for starting pitching and not second basemen and bench players.
Since someone asked about why some people don’t like DY: he was 27th in most offensive categories among LFers last year. As in, he was one of the 3-5 worst offensive producers at LF in all of baseball. Does that mean he can’t be good in the future? No. But, to say he was good this year just isn’t borne out by the stats. Oh, and if someone posts OPS+, remember that is not adjusted for position, so, yeah, he’s league average when you throw in SS, 2B, C and P into the the calculation….
Delmon had the 9th highest batting average among left fielders.
12th in doubles.
19th in RBIs.
(sorry, wasn’t done yet)
In the MAJORS among leftfielders:
6th in hits.
14th in triples
How does this come out to being the 27th rated left fielder in baseball?
9th in stolen bases…….
Here’s Delmon’s rankings as a RIGHT FIELDER in 2007:
6th in hits
8th in doubles
10th in RBIs
12th in BA
30th in HRs
it comes out that way because mike doesn’t like young. i think young was 27th in the league in batting ave. for all players.
he was also the best left fielder we’ve had in years!
but he’s a bum, doesn’t smile enough, is a cancer in the club house, doesn’t take coaching, doesn’t hit enough homeruns (nobody has said yet what enough is) and a long list of bad things that must be true because they were said on here.
How does this come out to being the 27th rated left fielder in baseball?
I guess for all of those rankings you posted…
30th in HRs
Must count for triple or something.
LEON JOE CROOKS says:
October 8th, 2008 at 11:37 am
HERE IS THE STARTING LINEUP FOR THE 09 MINNESOTA TWINS WITH WORLD SERIES IN THE MAKING
1. CENTERFIELD SPAN
2. 2ND BASEMAN UGGLA
3. CATCHER MAUER
4. SS J.J. HARDY
5. FIRST BASE MORNEAU
6. THIRD BASE ATKINS
7. LF YOUNG
8. DH GARRET JONES
9 RF GOMEZ
TRADE KUBEL,RUIZ,MACRI,ALEXI,BONSER,SWARZAK,BRENDON HARRIS, ANOTHER AAA PITCHER FOR THE SS 3RD BASEMAN AND 2ND BASEMAN ADDITIONS. KEEP THE FIVE MAN ROTATION IN TACT, AND FOR THE BULLPEN BRING UP FROM WITHIN. THE THREE ADDITIONAL INFIELDS CREATES PLENTY OF POWER AND SPEED. WORLD SERIES HERE WE COME.
LEON JOE CROOKS
Leon Joe Crooks, 1 big problem with this…we’re not the only team in the bigs looking to upgrade. You really think we can land all those big name players? And you really think we can afford it as well? Be sensible. You’re creating this team as if you’re playing “Fantasy Baseball” on ESPN.com
GOBBLE:
I heard on Jay Leno last night that things you read on the internet are true unless they have an “LOL” after them. So you are absolutely correct.
Delmon was 27th in BA in the American League (ALL players).
5th among AL rightfielders.
LEFT fielders.
“LOL”
Don’t contradict “mike hates facts”!
Better numbers than I had thought for Delmon. A big and slow(?) player who can’t field and hits pretty good. Some think we should get rid of him, but I’m afraid he would come back to haunt us.
He reminds me of David Ortiz more and more.
LJC,
There are so many problems with that lineup, I hardly know where to begin. Beyond the fact the Twins could never get all those players, Gardy would never move Gomez to RF. He’s the best fielding CF in the league. That aside, you have to be the only person in Minnesota who would actually want to see Garrett Jones on the roster. He’ll be lucky if he makes the Rochester squad next season. He has consistently showed he has no business playing in the major leagues.
leon, your caps lock is on also
I like your thinking, sane. You say “I have more faith in baseball insiders visual evaluation (and in my own) than I have in any fielding metric yet devised.”
That might be the case for hitting also. A major league career is a small sample size.
Mudcat,
For many players, their major league career was a painfully small sample size.
sane what would be your top 3 priorities this off season(give some names please, you have a better grasp on baseball than nearly everybody on here)?
of course, that means you think we have 3 leak spots.
ggg,
IMO the top three priorities are SS, 3B and starting pitching.
SS should be Casilla because other solutions are very costly in trades.
So now 2B replaces SS as the problem.
POS Next Year 2010 2012
SS Casilla Casilla Casilla
2B Tolbert-Punto Hughes Revere?
3B Buscher-Harris Valencia Valencia
SP No Change Mulvey Hunt
RP Slama-Delaney Slama-Delaney Gutierrez
sane’s thinking ahead, not just for next season. And that’s probably what the Twins should/will be doing.
I think at least for 2009 we need to add power at EITHER 3B or SS/2B. If you land a power-hitting SS, then get a good glove man at 3B. Or vice-versa.
ggg,
If you were asking for my proposal for trades, I don’t have one.
The multitude of unknowns, fringe factors and the various wants and needs of the Twins and their proposed trade partners is so enormous, that it is unrealistic to project.
Later, when teams announce their wants, needs and expendables, I might try to wrap my mind around the simplified possibilities.
Hey, I’m not talking about basic stats here, I’m talking OPS and other medium to advanced stats that take into account the totality of a players contribution.
You’ll note in most of your stat examples, you aren’t talking about OBP and slugging percentage. He hits like a middle infielder, that’s the point.
I have never said I hate him, I have never said that he is a bad human being, I’ve never said anything other than he wasn’t very good this year, and that you hear on the radio and read on this very site that he doesn’t take coaching well. I’ve never met the guy. I don’t generally hate people I’ve never met.
And, I compared him to all LF, not just AL.
The best advanced stat I can find for him is runs created (in terms of how high it ranks him), and that is 17th. That actually isn’t too bad.
Of those LFers that qualified for the batting title, he’s LAST in OPS in the American League (17th of 17 that qualified). That’s because all those stats you listed are generated by singles, almost no HRs, and mediocre to average doubles totals.
Also, personally attacking me and my motives isn’t going to get you very far in terms of getting me to change my mind.
If you land a power-hitting SS
The only decent fielding ss who can qualify as “power hitting” is JJ Hardy. I am not sure what it would take for the Twins to get him, but expect at least a MLB-ready starter + prospects & I fully expect the Brewers to want the Twins to get Bill Hall’s contract to trade Hardy. This might not be a bad think, if the Twins can unload Cuddyer’s contract to the Brewers (the 2 contracts are almost identical money) and the Brewers could use Cuddyer at 1B if Fielder goes…
so: Perkins + Cuddyer + an A prospect + a B prospect for Hardy and Hall is doable, with Hardy assuming the RH DH, PT 3B role. Basically you have Hardy at SS and Hall off the bench instead of Punto at SS and Cuddyer off the bench, which improves the Twins, but I do not think that it is enough of an improvement. Add a Casey Blake as a free agent with a 2 year contract as your main 3B, lock in a low risk, high reward FA pitcher to compete with Swarzak/Humber/Mulvey for the #5 spot in the spring training, and I might start to like the Twins’ chances next year…
Of the power hitting SS’s available, I prefer Brandon Wood. I realize he’s more projection that MLB proven right now, but I also think that might make him cheaper to acquire. The LAA don’t seem to want him all that much.
mike i certainly didn’t mean to attack you. if he was 25-26 yrs old i could see being disappointed but he was 22 this yr and very few guys even reach the majors by that age. did you compare him to other 22 yr old left fielders?
it’s apples to oranges and he is the best left fielder we’ve had in yrs. is he perfect? no. was he better this yr then last, probably. less rbi but he hit 5th most of the time in 07 and 6th this yr. that alone could explain a big part of the rbi decline.
now if you wanted to go at it from we didn’t know we’d get gomez and that span would play like he did when we traded for young. we lack power and the 3 guys this year will probably not hit a big hr total. so which one can we get the most for to correct that problem? gomez, span and young all have potential and flaws. span will not give you the power numbers either. (how does span compare to other rf’s)? then the question is young has 2 full yrs you kind of know what he is and you hope his power #’s will improve, gomez has been erratic at best after a full season plus, span hasn’t played a full season and how will play next yr with a better book on him is a question? so do you gamble on trading one of these guys to get cuddy in the lineup when cuddy has been injury prone the last 2 yrs and has not produced that well when healthy? imo you don’t chance trading a 22-23 yr old talent away to get cuddy in the lineup. i may be wrong, but i don’t think only looking at young is the answer to the problem. kubal is not an everyday of’r and having pridie as the backup doesn’t work for me.
imo you attack the problem with our excess(if that’s possible) pitching and plug the holes that way unless you get blown away with an offer you can’t refuse.
i’ll try to be nicer next time!
Of all the projections made for Delmon Young, it seems to me to be safe to say his power numbers will improve.
Probably his BMI numbers also, but we’re not going there today.
mike,
All of Delmon’s rankings that I put up were against all MLB left fielders. Yes, in HRs he is near the bottom, and if that’s where you are putting the greatest weight, then he would be near the bottom of the pile offensively. However, in most other areas I would say he is an above average left fielder. If he follows the trend of most players, he won’t even hit his peak for another 4 or 5 more years.
Whether it’s better to hit HRs or for average (if you can’t do both), I offer this: the White Sox hit more than twice as many HRs as the Twins in 2008, but scored fewer runs. I think Del fits in with the rest of the Twins team offensively and any future power will be an added bonus.
Please take down the Twins/WS box score on the Strib Twins page. I can’t look at it all winter.
No, I’m taking into account slugging percentage and on base percentage. These measure doubles and HRs as more important than singles, and walks as important and not ignored. BA and hits ignore these completely.
As for how many runs the WS and Twins scored this year, that really doesn’t prove anything other than what happened to those two teams this year. The Twins hit at an historic, many would say unsustainable level, with RISP. If the Twins were made up completely of Delmon Youngs, they would not have scored as many runs. They scored runs because Span and Mauer were on base a lot for the hitters behind them. If you want to examine these types of things, VORP is an interesting stat, as is winshares. These measure what would happen if the entire lineup was made up of Delmon Youngs vs Joe Mauers, for example. The Twins scored alot of runs because of Mauer and Morneau, and because they hit at an historic rate with RISP relative to their “regular” hitting.
As for fitting with the Twins philosophy, if the philosophy is to hit a ton of singles, not walk, and hit less HRs and doubles than the median player at your position, yes, he fits. If the philosophy is to have lots of extra base hits, a high on base percentage, and play good defense, he fits 1 or 0 of three, depending on how good of a defender he is.
Another option is to look at win probability added, which measures every play a player is involved in as a hitter. Delmon has a negative score, and is 7th worst among all OFers in all of baseball (I think he’s around 55th of 62 qualified batters).
by the way, Gomez is worse on most of these stats than Delmon, which part of my point about the team. It is hard to sustain victory when you are weak offensively at multiple positions. Having Delmon on the team is not a bad thing, having Delmon, Carlos, Buscher, Punto on the team, with a DH that is league average and inconsistency at 2B, that is a likely to be a problem.
It was the pitchers and Mauer and Morneau that carried this team as far as it went. The other players either were neutral or midly negative or mildly positive in their contributions.
finally, I’m not talking here about his future. I’m not talking about him “only being 22″. I’m talking about his performance this year. Nothing more, nothing less.
I’m pretty much done, I think. No one is going to change their mind here - I’m convinced he wasn’t very good this year, and others are convinced he was, so I’m not sure there’s much point in continuing.
If someone asks me a specific question about my opinion of Young, I’ll certainly answer that (though the other posters here probably won’t like you if you do :))
Well mike, I have to admit, whatever stat you are refering to seems to be way over my head. It just seems odd to me that a guy can be near the middle or better in almost every offensive category except HRs (singles= 6th; doubles= 12th; triples= 14th) and still only be better than 3 or 4 other players at his position. Your quote: “he was 27th in most offensive categories among LFers last year”. Now I uderstand you meant categories other than the ones I listed.
I assume the runners on base when Delmon batted tended to be Kubel, Morneau, and Mauer more often than Span, Gomez, or Castillo. In that case, a Delmon Young double would have less chance of driving in a run than would a Justin Morneau double. Maybe their is a stat for that. Delmon had a high BA and a high hit total. A single scores a guy from 2B or 3B (if there is a man on 2B or 3B). You can’t fault him for what happens before he comes up to bat.
If we were to trade Delmon, why trade for someone expensive(Beltre), or a cast-off from another team with no upside. For once I would like to see the Twins go after a bona-fide superstar and risk some of their young talent. Isn’t this why they wanted a new stadium? (Too be able to afford mutiple high priced salaries and keep their own stars). Why isn’t anybody talking about Matt Holliday? The Rockies had him on the block this summer. A Cuddyer, Young, Baker, and mid-level prospect might be enough to a least get the Rockies to consider. With Holliday you would have a top 5 number three in your order. Mauer is not a number three, but he would be the best number two in anybody’s order. Mauer, Holliday, and Morneau would be the best 2-3-4 in baseball. I’m tired of this team rarely ever battling back from 4 or 5 run deficits. We either crush or get crushed. The Phillies, Red Sox, Cubs, etc. are teams that are able to pull out slugfests. As far as salary goes, Holliday at 18 per would be better than Cuddyer and Beltre at a combined 20. What is Baker going to command in a couple of years. He’s been hurt every year, but will probably get at least 12 per considering what Silva and Lohse got. With Holliday batting between Mauer and Morneau, third base doesn’t become that much of a glaring need. Buscher would be fine(remember 91-Leius and Pags).
“It was the pitchers and Mauer and Morneau that carried this team as far as it went. The other players either were neutral or midly negative or mildly positive in their contributions.”
I can’t agree with that at all, mike. With all due respect, I think you have entangled yourself in formulas and theories.
All the players made significant positive contributions this year. Some of course more than others. I’m not a big Delmon fan, but he made significant contributions. He played most every day and hit .290. That’s a contributor.
Span and Casilla were top contributors. Gomez, Punto, Harris, etc….the list of contributors is long.
Morneau and Mauer are excellent players, but they didn’t “carry” the team. They were just parts to the team. I am a huge fan of Joe Mauer, and I like Justin too, but it wouldn’t concern me at all to lose either or both of those players
FYI: Cuddyer being listed as an infielder was simply a misprint/typo. Don’t get carried away. (I have it on good advice.)
Secondly, I heard Delmon has already gained another 25 pounds since the season ended. OK, perhaps that’s not true. But a guy that runs on his tip-toes and can’t field? Get rid of him while someone else wants him. If he’s anything like his brother, he’ll never live up to the hype anyway.
This season DY hit for a better average, accured more walks, less strikeouts, a better OBP in ten less games. He was 3 homers shy of last years mark in ten less games. He also just turned 23. It would not be Twins baseball to give up on a player this early. I agree with a previous post on not losing a potential slugger (Ortiz) in favor for a 30 year old outfielder that cannot stay healthy.
The notion of trading Baker is also just as ludacris. A younger pitcher that sat 8th in the AL in ERA, and also either lost or failed to get a decision in 6 games when allowing two or less earned runs is not someone you shop around. There are all of these previous posts talking about going and spending money (what the stadium is supposed to help bring in, money) and you are afraid you may have to pay Baker $10 mill. Rough for a consistent pitcher. ESPN said once this summer that the Twins’ staff is full of a bunch of Brad Radke’s, Baker the closest. I say keep him.
Also, DY hit 2 HRs and for a .330 average in the month of September, good finish, good notion? Compare it to Mourneau’s 2 HRs and .243 average or Mauer’s 0 homers and .290 average. Who was the better finisher? The batting champ or the OF’er no one wants? Mourneau had 10 more RBI’s in the final month but when you have the chances he does, that will happen. I think his finish, comparable and partially better than the core M&M boys, will win him a place on the team next year. The rest of us were probably veggin’ and boozin’ it up when we were 23.
disregard the mauer avg. my source was different than ESPN…. credibility, such an issue…
Not to divert the subject too much, but this recent “thing” going on with Childress and Kluwe is a prime example of why I respect what Gardy’s been doing.
The Vikings come out and lose their first two games. A coach who’s had his QBs back all the way through, suddenly goes from “He’s our guy” after the game, to “We’re going with Ferotte” the next day.
Now, in a game where his job was likely on the line, the team’s offense struggles in the second half, and his special teams gives up two touchdowns.
And he promptly throws Kluwe (who’s nationally considered one of the best punters) under the bus. Even going as far as to bring in four guys to try out for the punting job.
That my friends, is a sign of not only a poor coach, but a poor person. With his job on the line, Childress is doing everything he can to throw somebody else in the way of whatever axe is coming down.
Would Gardy have been upset with his players? Yes. Would he have called them out in the press? Heck no.
We get frustrated at times with “Battle your tail off” and the like…but you have to admit that one of the jobs as manager is peacekeeper. Praise in public, punish in private. No good ever comes from throwing blame at the feet of any one player. Because you risk losing the respect of that player, and you risk losing the respect for the rest of the team.
T:
Thank you. You hit the nail on the head regarding Gardenhire. This team overachieves year after year and he is a big part of it.
T: I agree with your assessment of Gardy relative to Childress, but that is a pretty low bar to overcome. Gardy deserves a good part of credit for this year’s success, no doubt.
As for the top two guys and the pitchers carrying this team, they only won a few games more than finishing over .500. I think Span and in spurts Gomez and Casilla also helped this team to its record, but not particularly consistently (and yes, Morneau was not too good those last weeks, testament to just how good he was the first 5 months that he still finished with the numbers he did).
I agree with your assessment of Gardy relative to Childress, but that is a pretty low bar to overcome.
I agree that “better than Childress” isn’t really much to go with, but I’m only comparing the two in terms of how thye handle situations such as these.
Because I see the Childress/Kluwe gamething as the same situtation as Gardenhire/Young during the KC series.
A player screws up and nearly costs his team the game. One coach steps between the press and the player afterwards, the other throws him to the hounds.
In both cases, I’m sure there were choice words shared (Young was benched briefly following the KC series if I recall), but I’d like to think that out of these two situations, Young likely came out of the whole thing with more respect for Gardy than Kluwe will for Chilly.
T,
Good point re. Gardy. However, I was puzzled by his comments toward Mike Lamb after the team released him. Something about his intensity. Was that a slip of the tongue? It was very un-Gardylike.
I say this thinking of the Young comments above, but it goes for any player?
Why compare Young to other league LFs? Wouldn’t it be more accurate to compare his stats to other #7 hitters? There is no rule anywhere that says corner players should be power hitters.
Shaitan -
Young actually had more plate appearances in the 6th spot in the order than the 7th. 275 in 6th, 199 in 7th, and 144 in 5th.
Thyros 98
I’m not quite understanding this JJ Hardy talk….is he really available? Where did you hear it if he is?
If Punto is resigned we’ll have an Achilles heel next year as Gardy will not use him in the role he is best suited for, as a utility/reserve player. Gardy will start him as often as possible. We should not trade DY just because he’s not one of Gardy’s faves. Gardy’s love affair with his faves, ala Cuddy and Punto, has been detrimental to this team. The Twins gave up on Ortiz way too early, and look what that got us, and how many DH’s have we gone through since?
Kay -
1. Punto was the best option this team had at shortstop last year.
2. Cuddyer was the best option for right field for this team when he played.
3. What does Ortiz have to do with anything?
Pete, that does not change anything I said.
1 - Punto being the supposed best option at ss this year has nothing to do with the fact that if he is resigned, even though he is not the best option, Gardy will find ways to start him.
2 - Cuddyer being the best option back when … has nothing to do with the fact that he is not the best option for right field today. I like him as a reserve player available in late innings when we need a righty with an occasional start, but Gardy will start him on a frequent basis probably at the expense of DY, who is on his “not a fave” list, while Cuddy most certainly is.
3 - Do you really not see the correlation between hastily giving up on a young Ortiz who had potential but didn’t want to hit the “Twins’ way” and potentially trading DY after one year?
Kay,
You are correct on all counts.
Kay -
1. In case you forgot, Punto did NOT begin this year as a starter. Harris was at 2nd, Everett at SS, and Lamb at 3rd. Punto outplayed them ALL.
2. Cuddyer was the best option for right field at the beginning of this year. And, contrary to how you feel, I think he will be the best option going into next year as well. He’s a right handed bat with some power that this team desperately needs. It could be argued - and I believe it - that right now Cuddyer is a better player than Delmon Young. Does Delmon have potential? Absolutely. Cuddyer has actual seasons under his belt that are better than what Young has done in his brief career.
3. David Ortiz was 26 when the Twins let him go. 26. He had shown flashes of being a great hitter, but couldn’t stay healthy, and really didn’t put together a great year. They had to make a decision, and chose to release him. As far as I remember, the Red Sox were pretty much the only team that offered him a contract. How that relates to a 22 year old Delmon Young is beyond me.
I don’t remember there being any protest when David Ortiz was released, (except that maybe they should have tried to working out a trade instead of outright releasing him). It’s easy to look back now because we know the kind of player he became.
Name another former Twin besides Ortiz and maybe Kyle Lohse that the FO let go or didn’t re-sign as a free agent that has had any kind of career since leaving the Twins
and Casey Blake
Cristian Guzman had a pretty dang good year this year.
Pete, I do not agree that Punto outplayed Harris nor do I believe that Cuddyer is our best option in RF next year. And again, if Punto is on the roster next year, Gardy will start him. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Guzman did have a good year this year and in the few games he played in 2007. Torii Hunter also had a good year, but I don’t include him because the Twins did try to resign him at $15M/year. I don’t recall if the Twins made a serious attmempt to resign Guzman. His salary at Washington wasn’t that much higher than with the Twins.
Kyle Lohse was traded, not released.
Name another former Twin besides Ortiz and maybe Kyle Lohse that the FO let go or didn’t re-sign as a free agent that has had any kind of career since leaving the Twins
Kenny Rogers
Casey Blake
Grand Balfour
J.C. Romero
Aaron Fultz
Eddie Guardado
LaTroy Hawkins
Javier Valentin
Mark Redman
Quinton McCracken
This century
I seem to recall that the Twins made no real effort to resign Guzman. At the time, then 3rd base coach Newman campaigned with the FO to resign Guzman arguing that the Twins would find no better SS, that they would find none faster and that he had the potential for becoming one of the best.
thrylos,
Compare that list to a list of Dodgers, Yankees, Marlins, etc.
JC Romero brought us Casilla in trade.
Mark Redman brought us Todd Jones in trade.
Javier Valentin brought us crap in trade.
They weren’t discarded for nothing.
sid,
ok, I give you Redman and Romero (gotta add Todd Jones in list though - thanks for the reminder)
Here is updated list (added the other 3 talked about already)
Kenny Rogers
Casey Blake
Grand Balfour
Aaron Fultz
Eddie Guardado
LaTroy Hawkins
Javier Valentin
Quinton McCracken
Todd Jones
David Ortiz
Christian Guzman
Kyle Lohse
feeling better?
thrylos98,
Some of those players were traded, but some (like J.C. Romero) were traded mostly to get rid of them, so I think it’s fair to include them.
Besides Casey Blake, and maybe Rogers, I don’t see anyone there that was a huge mistake to let go. How long did it take Balfour and Romero to rebound?
Just because Cuddyer doesn’t start in RF doesn’t mean he doesn’t get to play. He is the 1st option if any fielder doesn’t play and he also plays a lot of DH against lefties as Kubel is a joke when facing one. So he gets a lot of playing time.
I don’t understand why people want the Twins to sign Casey Blake. He is a dog. Granted not a dog with flees (Mike Lamb) but pretty close. The guy can’t play 3B so if there is an upgrade over Harris/Buscher it’s marginal. Then you have the fact you are paying him millions instead of thousands and he is getting pretty old.
Kyle Lohse brought us Brandon Roberts (wow!) in trade.
But you and Walter Johnson make a good point. -
Sometimes players are discarded by trading them.
It makes it difficult to differentiate between discarding a player and a legitimate trade.
Casey Blake has 125 HRs in six seasons since leaving the Twins.
He’s had 14 erros at 3B in each of the last two seasons (compare with Beltre’s 18 in 2007 and 14 in 2008).
Casey Blake is no dog.
Read some Dodgers press.
After Manny, he is the Dodgers savior#2.
whoever said that we should trade Span is on somthing…..thats stupid. with all the tallent we have on the team we dont really need to trade for anyone. a power hitter would be nice but who knows mabe kubel will muscel up or somthing. our pitching staff is amazing, baker 4 team ace. tolbert 3rd? possiblilty maby. wev got everything we need on our team already
How long did it take Balfour and Romero to rebound?
here is how long it took them all to rebound:
Romero: 1.92 ERA, 2 years after Twins
Ortiz: .288/.369/.592 31 HR, 101 RBI, 1 year after Twins
Kenny Rogers: 18-9 4.76 ERA All Star, 1 year after Twins
Casey Blake: .271/.354/.486 28 HR, 2 years after Twins
Grand Balfour: 1.54 ERA 0.891 WHIP, 4 years after Twins (but was hurt for 2 years)
Aaron Fultz: 2.24 ERA 0.968 WHIP, 1 year after Twins
*Eddie Guardado: 2.78 ERA 0.993 WHIP, 1 year after Twins
*LaTroy Hawkins: 2.63 ERA 1.049 WHIP 25 Sv, 1 year after Twins
Javier Valentin: .281/.362/.520, 3 years after Twins
Quinton McCracken: .309/.367/.458, 1 year after Twins
Todd Jones: 2.10 ERA 1.027 WHIP 40 saves, 4 years after Twins (but was in COL before)
Christian Guzman: .328/.380/.466, 3 years after Twins (lost a year due to injury)
Kyle Lohse: 15-6 3.78 ERA, 2 years after Twins
to be fair, the ones noted with (*) signed contracts with other teams the year after they left that were much higher than their Twins’ contracts.
josh,
If you trade Span (or Delmon) you would have to bank on Cuddyer lasting a full season and getting some production out of him. Without Cuddyer’s big contract, I doubt if there would be any talk of trading either Span or Young.
Who cares if we trade minor leaguers we desparetly need a right handed power hitter. Everyone in Seattle pretty much did bad even one of my favorites Ichiro didnt hit his career avg. We should trade Boof, Gurrier, and minor leaguers for Beltre. If that don’t happen then we should just try out for third or try to get Scot Rolen but I really think that Beltre would have another breakout season with us.For Pitching we only need like one starter and it has to be a vet that had lower than 4 and is consistent in his starts. For middle relief I like the Jeremy guy that plays for Colorado. He will probably do better than Mat.
i never said we shouldnt trade delmon, that mite be a good idea, but why cant we have 4 interchangeable outfielders? that would keep everyone fresh. i read somthing in the paper about cuddyer playing third, idk if its a good idea but maby a possibility
thyrlos98,
You are a stat machine.
McCracken and Fultz I barely remember when with the Twins. Todd Jones didn’t help the team much. We really could have used Kenny Rogers the year after he left.
Let’s get back to the original point, though. What YOUNG players did the Twins give up on too soon? I would say only Ortiz and Blake and Guzman. Especially since the areas the Twins are hurting the most in are 3B, SS and DH.
I guess we should expect big things from Brian Bass next year?
wj,
I think the key question here is not who left but who was the replacement next season… in most of those cases (e.g. replacing Valentin with LeCroy, Ortiz with a DH by committee led by LeCroy, Rogers by Seth Greisinger) the replacement player was of lower quality than what they lost…
I expect Bass to be a mop up pitcher for the Orioles next year
Guzman had several dreadful seasons after leaving the Twins for a monster (at the time) FA deal with the Nationals. His first year there, he finished last in the major leagues in hitting, sub .100 I believe. Nationals fans were all over him. Then he got hurt and missed an entire year. Yes, he did better this year but has been gone from the Twins for a long, long time.
Walt says: “Let’s get back to the original point, though. What YOUNG players did the Twins give up on too soon? I would say only Ortiz and Blake and Guzman.”
If we get rid of DY, we’ll be able to add him to the list too.
1 - Punto being the supposed best option at ss this year has nothing to do with the fact that if he is resigned, even though he is not the best option, Gardy will find ways to start him.
If the FO felt they gave Gardy a better option than Punto at SS to work with…and Gardy refused to use that option, Gardy wouldn’t have a job anymore.
He doesn’t manage in a vacuum, and his isn’t the only opinion that factors into which players are used and how.
Furthermore, if the FO doesn’t want Gardy using Punto…they will not bring Punto back.
JayTEE,
for the record:
Guzman made $3.75M his last year with the Twins and $4.2M each of his first 4 years with the Nationals (about 500K more per year, which is less than what the Twins ate by letting Mike Lamb walk).
The extension he signed this summer (for 09 and 10) was larger…
if the FO doesn’t want Gardy using Punto…they will not bring Punto back. or they will not bring Gardy back or both
t98,
Valentin was replaced by LeCroy as the back-up catcher under AJ. I don’t think that move ever hurt the Twins much.
Ortiz, you look up his numbers his last year in Minnesota and you scratch your head:
G AB 2B HR RBI BA SLG
125 412 32 20 75 .272 .500
Almost the same numbers he put up in 2008.
Ortiz hit 38 HRs his final two seasons with the Twins. Durability issues aside, how do you just release him without trying to get something for him?
Seth Greisinger? Sounds like someone who pitched for KC. Was I comatose the week he was in the starting rotation?
Greisinger started 9 games with the Twins. Was signed as a FA to replace Rogers, and amid general suckage was outrighted to Rochester for the remainder of the season
“If the FO felt they gave Gardy a better option than Punto at SS to work with…and Gardy refused to use that option, Gardy wouldn’t have a job anymore.”
A little overly simplistic, doncha think? The FO is hardly going to can Gardy over this one issue when he is touted as AL Manager of the Year.
“if the FO doesn’t want Gardy using Punto…they will not bring Punto back.”
I can only hope…. There is also no economic sense in bringing Punto back in a reserve/utility role when Tolbert can do the job for much, much less. The Twins could use the money saved by not resigning Punto to help acquire a solid 3rd or 2nd baseman.
Why the LeCroy vs. Valentin move hurt the Twins? Because LeCroy, like Punto and Hocking, was one of Gardy’s pets and ended up having 345 ABs as a back up catcher and DH. And he was Gardy’s main DH in the postseason, starting 3 out of 4 games and batting clean up. That’s why…
now, let’s cheer for Gardy’s upcoming extension…
Does anybody else think that Young looked uncomfortable in the outfield this year? He got the job done but I always seemed to hold my breath when he was running after the ball. If it were me I like the idea of putting Young in the DH role (if he would accept it) slide Span to left and Cuddyer back in right. Nick Punto could win a gold glove at any infield position and his batting average was right there with the rest of the teams infielders. Sounds like a pretty good asset to me.
Patrick,
You praise Punto at your own risk around here.
I think Kubel and Cuddyer both fit the same role as split-time DH/OF. Kubel and Cuddyer are almost the same player now. I think those two should share the DH role as a right-left combo with occasional spells in the OF. Delmon starts most of the games in RF/LF.
“Why the LeCroy vs. Valentin move hurt the Twins? Because LeCroy, like Punto and Hocking, was one of Gardy’s pets and ended up having 345 ABs as a back up catcher and DH. And he was Gardy’s main DH in the postseason, starting 3 out of 4 games and batting clean up. That’s why…
now, let’s cheer for Gardy’s upcoming extension…”
You are seriously upset about this? Javier Valentin is NOT good. He had a 221 at bat season where he played out of his mind. EVERY other year he is a below average offensive player. And it’s not like he is a defensive wizard either - in 2007 he gave up 40 stolen bases while only throwing out 5.
As for those 345 at bats that LeCroy got for being a ‘pet’ of Gardenhire? He hit .287/.342/.490. That .490 was the highest slugging percentage on the team. The other guys who had more than 6 appearances at DH that year were Bobby Keilty, Jacque Jones, and a 22 year old Justin Morneau. LeCroy was the best option to use at DH on that team. So what are you complaining about?
I won’t defend LeCroy, but saying that releasing Javier Valentin was a mistake because LeCroy, who replaced him as back-up catcher, eventually became the DH is a bit of a stretch, isn’t it?
Let’s see what the complains are about Young:
he runs tip toed
he swings at the first pitch
he gained weight
for the one’s who do not remember, check this compilation of another Twins’ outfielder who ran tip toed, swang at the first pitch and gained weight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ7SVORswUs
Look at the similarities, at the plate, at the field and at the bases then realize that Young @ 22 had better numbers than him @24 and give the man a break.
thrylos98,
Those three similarities don’t mean anything, and you know it.
The only thing that really matters is that Kirby had a nice smile and Delmon is surly-looking.
Puckett and Delmon had similarities in the field?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
thrylos98,
Anyone who has read your comments this year recognizes the fact you’re a Delmon apologist. And that’s cool everyone has a cross to bare.
However, I respectfully submit, this is easily the least intelligent thing you’ve written on this site. Did Delmon finish 21st in MVP voting this year? I guess by your reasoning then all Young has to due is hit .328 with 31 HR’s next year. Because that’s Puckett in his 3rd full season. Delmon then needs to lead the Twins to a title in his 4th, win
Even though I’m not a Delmon fan there are actual arguments that could be made on his behalf. Comparing him to Puckett is just dumb. Because one of the arguments made against Delmon, by many including writers for the Strib, works against you comparison. Puckett exploded his 3rd season after working with Tony O to increase his power production. Has anyone submitted that Delmon is really developing under the wing of anyone other than his father? No is answer of course.
Here’s a bet for you, even in this offensive age of baseball what do you think the odds of Delmon surpassing Puckett’s career total of 207 HR’s is? And Puckett was not a HR hitter. How about his career average of .318? So he worse in terms of average, power and defense…sounds like a good comparison to make.
As many a coach has said, Potential is the most dangerous word in sports. Keep using it as it will have turned into something else.
Sometimes what you see at 22 is what you’ll get at 27, 32 and beyond. Read Gleeman today for some further statistical support to Delmon’s effort this season.
I actually hope to be wrong about him if the Twins keep him but I’d be willing to bet otherwise.
I’ll see in Cooperstown in 2023 for Delmon’s big day!
WOW!!!
23 years old +1 month with 2 years of good/decent ML service and washed up because a player doesn’t have 400 HR’s and 2000 RBI. Go Figure.
IF 23 is the cut-off for washed up players, Kirby Puckett, the scufflaw, wouldn’t have even played in the show.
Looks like the Twins have to do what European Soccer teams do. They, European Soccer teams, have under 18 teams, under 13 teams EVEN under 10 and 8 teams.
Looks like the Twins need to play their under 13 guys to get any value, with a little help from the under 8 & 10’s.
Regards,
It seems to me that much of the debate about Delmon’s future with the Twins and his own potential misses the point. It’s not about Delmon’s done compared to other LF or to what he did last year in Tampa or even his potential since nobody REALLY knows what that will be. At best we can hope or guess.
It’s about whether or not what Delmon is producing fits what the Twins needs are. If they do then great, he’s helping the team. If not then they need to see of they can find it in someone else.
Span may hit less HR’s then other RF’s in the league but he fits for the Twins as a great leadoff man. Go-Go has many things to improve upon but he is one of the best defensive CF’s in baseball and seems to provide something out of the #9 spot. M & M boys provide what the team needs out of them.
So is a LF who hits in the .280 to .290 range (last 2 seasons #’s, with little power, no plate discipline, puts the ball on the ground way too much when he does hit it, has below average range in the field, strong arm, questionable decision making in the field and maybe (depending on what you believe) have “coachabilty” issues, what the Twins need hitting in the 5 or 5 spot?
I think for team that is poised to make the playoffs over the next few years if they can fill some of there line-ups statisical needs the answer is fairly obvious.
Maybe you can if you add all of those things at some other positions and what you need Delmon to do is that which he has done. But me thinks that is not the case.
The Delmon issue leads me to another point regarding all the trades discussed here the past few days: The Twins and Yankees are obviously very different in how their franchises can put together a team. But with the Twins well stocked in the young major and minor league talent pool they need to borrow a mindset from the Devils in Pinstripes:
Your farm system is not only to provide your major league club with players but also to acquire the the Major league proven talent you need. We have used trading our star but soon to be expensive players for years in return for players with “potential”. Turn the tables and use some (not all) of the potential you have to bring in the right kind of player that can allow the Twins to compete for a title now without mortaging the future. In the past the Twins seem loathe to trade anyone with a “future” for MLB proven. This may be as equipped as this franchise has ever been to do it.
The Twins have uncovered some gems in those past trades but there have been a lot of duds. There’s no guarantee what they’d give away is something they’d later regret.
Just because the deal with the Rays doesn’t look now doesn’t mean Billy should stop taking chances. And this mindset, IMO, would seem to be a low risk high with a possible high reward given the depth of young “potential” talent.
Go Twins!
“We have used trading our star but soon to be expensive players for years in return for players with “potential”.”
Who was the last star besides Santana traded away for “potential” because he was too expensive? Frank Viola?
In defense of thyroid98, I don’t think he meant to say Delmon is the next Kirby Puckett. He justed pointed out some of Delmon’s weaknesses that have been criticized that were also displayed by Puckett at the same age before he started juicing.
“In the past the Twins seem loathe to trade anyone with a “future” for MLB proven. ”
You mean like the trades for Todd Jones, Shannon Stewart, Luis Castillo, and Rick Reed?
I don’t think the Twins are loathe to trade young talent for proven players. It just usually doesn’t make a lot of sense for this team to do that.
Kirby91,
I realize .280 or so is apparently the mendoza line.
One of my favorite Twins players of all time, I grew up loving Killer, was Kirby Puckett. Somehow, Kirby made it to the Hall of Fame, and he batted .000 in the ML as a 21 year old and a 22 year old, AND a 23 year old.
By the time Delmon becomes 24 years old, the over the hill age that Kirby slinked into the major leagues, Delmon will have 3 years ML experience. Somehow Kirby overcame and improved over his career. I guess it is idiocy to think that Delmon might improve as well, although I realize minor league experience is far better than actual major league experience.
Regards,
Add the Knoblauch trade to that also…
Nobody knows whether Delmon will match Kirby’s number.
The fact is that Delmon at 22 years old had better numbers than Puckett at 24. A lot of the things that people are complaining about (weight, tip toeing and first pitch swinging), he shares with Puckett.
All I am saying, is that it is too early to judge and better give the guy a break and some time. And the bottom line is that last season he performed better than Cuddyer. If you want to find a scape goat, look at Cuddy
Kirby91,
Also, posters are talking like Valencia is the future answer at 3B.
Quite stupid, Valencia turned 24 4 days after Young turned 23.
On the New Britain Roster, ONLY Jay Rainville is younger than Delmon Young, and he is 1 month and a couple of days younger.
On the Ft. Myers roster ONLY 10 of 27 players are younger than Delmon Young, AND 3 of those are 3 month or less younger.
You have to get all the way down to Beloit to find a Twins Minor League team where the bulk of the roster is younger than Delmon Young. 28 of 34.
2 years of ML experience , ALL WASHED UP, and younger than 1/3 of the Ft. Myers roster.
Got to love it.
Regards,
the Dragon,
NICE.
Pete D,
Rick Reed hardly proven. Journeyman yes, at or near All-Star level…no.
Jones had some great years after the Twins so his not working out in 2001 does not prove he could’nt pitch anymore.
Shannon & Luis actually did the job at the time they were aquired and served their purpose. Luis was then unloaded at the proper time (even though many players were critical of that). So he didn’t financially weigh down the team. Stewart’s play was a major factor in the Twins winning the AL Central title that year and putting the Yankees on the ropes in the first round. The mistake was not making the trade but the subsequent large contract. Jones I can’t speak to but if you could please tell me who the prospects are that they traded for these three men? Any that are currently MLB stars or significant players? If they are I stand corrected but if not then it only proves my point.
AJ & Knobbie are two other guys the Twins could not afford and sent away for prospects. Eric Milton was another good player on the verge of being to expensive and he brought a return of Punto and Silva (2 starters for the Twins even if many don’t want Punto to be one!). Rod Carew if you want to go way back.
I’m not trying to find fault or blame with the Twins. I’m merely saying this is a time and opportunity they’ve rarely had and to not let it pass by. The Yankee’s approach (now used by the Red Sox and Mets as well) did not let them down because they changed their mind. It’s not working now because they aren’t stocked with as many blue chip minor league “potential” stars.
This is a chance to trade for the Beltre’s or Hardy’s of the world. The latter young, sound defensively, and way above average in what he produces offensively compared to others at his position (especially the Twins). As for Beltre he not only helps now but buy’s another year or two until you are totally set on which young 3B prospect you want to take the job in the future.
Rick Reed hardly proven
if it were not for Rick Reed anchoring the rotation with a team leading 15-7 record, 3.76 ERA, a 1.160 WHIP and 188 IP, the Twins would have not won the division in 2002. The only other starter who came within an ERA point from his was Lohse (4.23)…
at or near All-Star level…no
Reed was an All-Star with the Mets in 1998 and in 2001, the year he was traded to the Twins
Knoblauch was traded because he wanted to be traded. He was tired of losing, had a piss-poor attitude, and declared that he didn’t want any part of the Twins’ future. That’s why the fans hated him so much and pelted with dollar hot dogs when he returned as a Yankee.
AJ was traded because of Joe Mauer. Joe Nathan was on the major league roster and we wanted to convert him to a closer to take the place of the departed Eddie Guardado.
Rick Reed was the stopper down the stretch in 2002. I think he hurt his back the next year.
Yeah, Reed retired after the 2003 season at 39.
I gotta go. I’m actually going to St. Paul this weekend for a wedding. Maybe I’ll stop by the new ballpark and see if it really smells like burning garbage.
Based on expectations, this season was a success. But I cannot give Gardy any credit for it. He chose Gomez over Span coming out of spring training. Why should he get any credit for Span’s success? What would Tom Kelly have done with this team over the past five years? If Gardy does so much with the personnel he’s given and is so motivating, then what happened in 2007? Why does anybody think our farm system is so great? More than half the team is players from other organizations that we got lucky with(Nathans, Casillas, Puntos, Buschers, Lirianos, etc.).
kirby91 -
I guess I don’t understand your point. The Twins are shrewd traders - they don’t just give away talent for veterans. They can’t afford to do it. And it really isn’t the best way to do anything. And I guess I really don’t know what great moves the teams like the Yankees, Red Sox, and Mets have done.
*Sure, the Red Sox dealt for Beckett and Lowell, but are they better off than if they still had Hanley Ramirez? You argue with the 2 titles, but man, Hanley is amazing.*
That should read : ‘you can’t argue with the 2 titles’
Gotta get this outta the way before a much longer post:
Patrick, if “Nick Punto could win a gold glove at any infield position” then why hasn’t he by now? He played full time in ‘07 so should have enough games played to qualify. Is a perennial Web Gemmer. You know why? Maybe it’s because it’s other managers and coaches who vote. And they are not fooled by the several memorable plays while not forgetting some of the routine plays that he tries to turn into spectacular plays and fails miserably. And they are human so it would not be beyond the realm of the impossible that while the award is supposed to be about defense, maybe, just maybe the player’s offensive contributions might color their vote a tad.
Beisbol,
The Gold Glove is a popularity contest. Didn’t Tori Hunter win one last year? He surely wasn’t the best Center Fielder or one of the Top 3 Defensive Outfielders in 2007. These things happen to be on reputation rather than performance.
Regards,
I started out in the RH power 3B as highest priority camp, but after considering things like
- Twins are not playing in a trade/FA vacuum, there will be much competition for all the usual suspects
- Some of the usual trade suspects play for teams in lala land e.g. M’s as far as fair value in trade
- Many of the FA will have overvalued money thrown their way by large market teams.
Thus, my suggestions:
Keepers - M&M, RedDog,Lexi,DY, GoGo, Span, entire starting rotation, Nathan, Mijares, Breslow. As much as tip-toeing, first pitch swings and poor conditioning scare the you know what out of me, I’m willing to go at least one more year with DY.
I agree more than 100% that Lexi may not be ready to be the captain of the infield whether or not SS is his natural position or not. He needs to prove next season that he can stay focused for all nine innings. Going after Brian Roberts would be wonderful but moving Lexi maybe not so much.
I like the idea of going after Hardy. The BrewCrew need pitching and we have that to offer. Boof/Humber + Guerrier + prospect.
As much as this doesn’t solve what had been my number one priority, platooning Buscher and Harris at 3B may not be the end of the world if Valencia shows something in AFL. But platooning must mean more than the few games that Harris was in. His defense was better than Buscher’s and with regular play I truly feel his offense would have been better also.
Utility: Tolbert yes, LNP no.
DH: Cuddyer/Kubel platoon.
Rest of Pen: Either Humber or Boof (whoever is not traded, although I favor Humber for both long relief and as a possible starter), give Crain another season although be prepared to bail and replace with someone from Rochester EARLY, same with Neshek, promote someone from AAA, e.g. a Delaney, Slama.
LF - Span
SS - Hardy
C - Mauer
1B - Morneau
DH - Cuddyer/Kubel/Young
RF - Young/Cuddyer
3B - Harris/Buscher
2B - Casilla
CF - Gomez
Not ideal, doesn’t meet my original #1 priority but eminently doable within current payroll parameters as well as realistic trade possibilities/partner. I don’t think Hardy warrants it but a 2nd pitching prospect would be OK to seal the deal.
This scenario comes with some other to-dos that I blogged a number of days ago as my low (zero) budget improvement plan. One of the reasons I gave up on ideas like Uggla is the Twins propensity to turn power into powerlessness. I truly wonder if that has not contributed to what many of us view as a disappointment with DY. Did anyone out there watch him much last year as a then Devil Ray? I didn’t…didn’t pay hardly any attention to the Rays. I’d be willing to match Howard’s crate of ginger ale that DY was pulling the ball a heckuva lot more last year than hitting all those balls the other way for fouls. I’d rather the Twins not go after potentially over the hill FA’s or worst, turn formerly power hitters into not power hitters. Along the same lines, maybe Vavra, Gardy, etc. should have a summit meeting with Young Sr. to come to some agreement as to how Young Jr. is going to become a power hitter. We don’t need him as a defensively challenged, rather light hitting OF. Could they possibly interest Young Sr. into letting someone like Tony O. work with Young Jr. more than in a commercial? I am being somewhat tongue in cheek here but I do wonder big time whether the obvious need for power is a waste of time so long as the Twins org. is satisfied with small ball and thinking that a team .300+ BA with RISP will happen every year (NOT!!).
Not resigning LNP is definitely to save Gardy from himself. Same with Reyes. The kids definitely need to be thrown out of the nest next year. The objective should be a minimum 6 innings, preferably 7, EVEN if they get into a jam, wasn’t that what they were supposed to be watching in Livan??? (It’s interesting that even when they knew there was no chance to resign Santana they never asked him to extend himself like the Mets did.) This is also to save Gardy from himself. 6 or 7 from the starter, maybe a MR for 1, set-up man for 1, Nathan — Gardy is a genius. Kids fold early, not so much.
Platoons, Harris deserves a little more playing time than this year. Buscher and Cuddyer to spell Morneau from time to time. Kubel on pine when LHP from other team.
Coaching needs to focus on throws to Justin (he got more airmail this year than the Post Office), turning DP’s especially if Hardy is acquired as a new SS and Santa grants me my wish and LNP is employed elsewhere (does Ozzie really want to turn his humpback whales into a small school of piranhas??), reacquainting DY with RF and working with Span if he needs it in LF, hitting, hitting, hitting with patience at the plate for DY and Go-Go. Also using RedDog more strategically as in with the kids he did better catching this year than Mauer rather than the automatic day game after night game routine. Also not automatically batting RedDog 3rd just because he is spelling Mauer.
Last thing, and yes this is probably much more fantasy baseball than anything, if they want power, let’s go for the GUSTO, forget all the people named so far. I want Manny to DH. Whatever his price is it would still be a great value because not only would you get a proven power hitter feared by all, you’d get the hitting coach missing all these years…the Dodgers have commented about how their young players are hitting so much better, Larry Bowa confirmed what has been said by many people not in Red Sox uniforms that he is a hard working professional who has been willing to share hitting knowledge with the young players in LA. Gomez for one would almost surely become a much improved hitter since he was buzzing around Manny and Big Papi when they visited the Dome this year, not surprising since these two are heroes to any Dominican player. Don’t respond with a pooh-pooh to this idea, I fully expect it and then some. But as someone else already said, there is no MLB salary cap, the only cap is the one inside the Pohlads’ wallets. Since we have all been given no choice in bailing out millionaires these past few weeks, maybe it’s time for a billionaire to reciprocate???
Hey, does anyone else think that there is any chance the Nats would be willing to trade Ryan Zimmerman? Sure, he’s their star, but that is such a terrible team that they’d almost have to jump at the chance to deal him for a crop of young players. What about this: Nick Blackburn, Phil Humber, Michael Cudddyer and a mid-level prospect for Zimmerman? To me, that sounds like a good deal for both teams.
Cuddyer will play everyday. He is a better all-around player than Young or Kubel.
Gardy will be happy to have him back everyday in 2009. The front office loves him. They aren’t going to pay him all that money to sit on the bench.
Cuddyer has said he expects to be the regular RF, when he is healthy. One would certainly think so.
Dragon, exactly my point. Punto has quite a reputation from constantly being a WebGemmer, as much as Hunter used to be. But I do think that “reputation” includes offense as well as just defense. I also truly think that the pros in the game also recognize the Puntoism of trying to turn a routine play into a WebGem and then missing e.g. that barehanded catch.
After the trade of Santana and Garza the Twins are bare bones, in the starting pitching department. They won’t be trading away starting pitching. They have no depth. Boof is available because he is no longer seen as a credible rotation option.
Craig, if you’re talking to me, I’m OK with Cuddyer starting in RF and Young platooning with Kubel at DH. In either scenario DY has lots of homework to do.
Forgot to add for ‘09, Cuddyer really needs to change the math for his motivational ‘09 t-shirt. Magician maybe, clairvoyant obviously not, or maybe didn’t know the MLB tiebreaker rules either.
The Twins are looking for a SS, because of durability concerns with Punto. They want him back, but they don’t want to depend on him.
Beis,
My comments were to anyone.
I think if Cuddyer started in RF and showed he could play and if he was productive, the Twins could market him at that point. Right now, his contract looks too risky to other teams.
thrylos98,
I stand corrected on the Reed’s pre-Twins resume. Thanks for the facts. One’s which further prove my point. He, as you pointed out, was a key contributor to a Twins division title. A trade for an already proven MLB player that worked.
Walter Johnson,
I agree with the why Knobbie & AJ were traded. And both of those deals worked for the Twins. It also worked short term for the Yankees who could afford to make the move because they had prospects to deal. So do the Twins now. Like the reasons you gave for AJ moving on, the Brewers may also be in such a spot with Hardy. The Twins could benefit from that because the Brewers sure could use young pitching and/or prospects (they did lose a few when trading for CC).
Pete D,
I’m not questioning past trades that have been made, although the debate will rage on about the Rays deal last off season, just the number of them and that this is a time to be bold in that way again. I’m saying that need to make more of them at a time when they can afford to do so. 3 examples over the last decade is not much of a history.
But the point is this: Now is CLEARLY a time when they are in position to do so given the number of quality young players in the minors or just at major league level. There are a few teams who would seem to be ripe to make a deal with because they have a players that fits the Twins needs/money and those teams have reason to move them for young talent. Brewers-Hardy and Seattle-Beltre. IMO you might, I say might, be able to get one or both of these without drastically taking away from the current MLB roster. Example: Would the Twins be better going into the season with SS/3B combo of Beltre and Hardy if they lost Young, Boof, Blackie or Perkins, maybe even a Crain (just to put out a name) and a minor leaguer or two? IMO I’d say yes for 2009 and for the future. Young & Blackie/Perkins would be the best of the “potential” to which I refer.
And I’m also saying, while there is risk, this is a better way than to keep “hoping” to catch lighting in a bottle and throwing millions at the Livan’s, Everett’s Lamb’s, Monroe’s, Batista’s & Rondell White’s of the world. THAT is what the Twins can’t afford in terms of talent and wasting money that could go to paying for a real player.
While the Rays deal may end up being one that doesn’t work for the Twins, I give Smith credit for at least trying such a move they don’t normally make. The intentions seemed to be sound behind if the players execution wasn’t what they or most of us thought it needed to be. And if they turn around and trade Delmon and/or Harris to say Seattle or the Brewers or some other team as part of a deal that brings them what they really need than the Rays deal can still work. Signing a washed up vet or just hoping all current guys get better only has one way of working.
I was negative toward Harris most of the year, but I can’t help think that he might have more in him than he has shown so far. He’s not a middle inf, but I don’t mind him at 3B. He has a good arm. The Twins need to improve their fielding, and he might be a better choice than Buscher.
Tolbert could surprise and take the 3B job in spring. He can hit, field and run. His arm is good. Not much HR power, but the Twins don’t care about that.
Beisbol,
the Twins have about $25-30M to spend this offseason. What you are proposing, basically leaves the team about $20 over that.
Here is what I would do:
C Mauer
1B Morneau
2B Casilla
3B Glaus/Beltre
SS Hardy
LF Span
CF Gomez
RF Young
DH Bradley
bench:
C - Redmond
IF - Harris
IF - Hughes
OF - Pridie
SP Slowey
SP Liriano
SP Baker
SP Blackburn
SP Pedro Martinez
CL Nathan
LHP Mijares
RHP Neshek
RHP Delaney
LHP Breslow
RHP Crain
that adds to about +$25 from last year. You can figure who goes from the names not mentioned.
I think the Twins could sign Cesar Izturis to play SS at a reasonable price. He has a dandy glove, and some speed. He has had right hamstring problems, but if they could sign both him and Punto, they would be okay at SS. Tolbert can also play there.
Izturis and Punto are in the Twins price range. They wouldn’t lose any players or draft picks.
Guys like Hardy are a pipe dream. The Twins don’t have the depth to trade for him. Even free agent Orlando Cabrera will get too much money, and too many years elsewhere.
Punto and Izturis are affordable players the Twins could realistically retain.
The New and Improved Craig,
So you don’t think the Twins can afford to trade one or two of: Perkins, Blackburn, Humber, Brian Duensing, Kevin Mulvey, Anthony Swarzak Jeff Manship,Yohan Pino along with Boof and/or a position player?
I respectfully disagree given the fact the entire rotation is young and should, barring injury, be around as a reasonable price for awhile. And even if injury becomes a problem getting a vet starter as a 4 or 5 is far cheaper and easier than getting a big bat free agent to fill that need.
Again, with respect, if not now then there will never be a time the Twins will be able to “afford” trading a young pitcher.
Cesar Izturis? I’d rather have Adam Everett back, thank you
The Twins will likely go with 12 pitchers, 2 catchers, 6 infielders and 5 outfielders:
Pitching:
Baker, Slowey, Liriano, Blackburn, Perkins, Nathan, Crain, Neshek, Guerrier, Mijares, Breslow, Humber
Catching:
Mauer, Redmond
Infield:
Morneau, Casilla, Harris, Buscher, Tolbert, ??????
Outfield:
Young, Gomez, Span, Kubel, Cuddyer
The Twins are looking to add a veteran SS. If they also bring back Punto then Buscher or more likely Harris will go. The team is pretty set right now.
I would add Punto and Izturis, drop Buscher, and call it good.
Craig, how exactly, does this improve the team?
thry,
I’d put Cuddy in RF and Span in LF. That improves the fielding in the OF.
I’d use Harris at 3B, spelled by Tolbert. That improves the fielding at 3B.
I’d use Izturis and Punto at SS. Izturis is a magician. That improves SS over last year.
The hitting suffers just a little without Buscher, but the fielding should help the pitching.
Overall, it’s a much better team.
The card that Smith could play would be swap Cuddy sometime before the mid-season deadline, and put Delmon in RF. Cuddy could be traded to patch wherever they prove to be weak.
Thry, you and I agree on most things. I’ve got one eye on the NLCS, one eye on the dreadful national/world news, and also peeking at the blog from time to time. You’ve lost me on my budget overrun other than the obvious (ManRam, yes I AM doing that to irritate someone, can’t remember who, hope it’s not you).
Oh wait, I see you said $20, not $20 mil, over budget. Ah, but you have forgotten my prize (ManRam), that will easily match YOUR spending (HAHA!).
Thry, I know you like Bradley but honestly the Twins would have to go to something no other MLB team has…a co-manager. Bradley has been a keg of dynamite ready to explode except when Ron Washington has the starter safely in his back pocket. If DY isn’t coachable, Bradley isn’t controllable.
Cuddy at RF improves fielding?
Check this out
http://www.billjamesonline.net/fieldingbible/charts/leaders2-0507.gif
Other than outfield assists, Cuddyer is to right field what Buscher is to third base.
Izturis is better than Punto at SS, I give you that. Harris is better than Buscher at 3B, I give you that. But this is like saying that your Yugo got totalled and you are going to replace it with a later model… I think that this team needs more than that
Thry, BTW I’m extremely serious about the Twins propensity to take the power out of even a proven power hitter. Only someone like Manny would tell them to take a hike and who even the Twins would not dare mess with about hitting the ball the other way.
Amend that, maybe proven power hitter is a bit too strong, let’s just say guys who can definitely hit with power, e.g. Ortiz, DY.
Beisbol,
a couple of points:
a. Jose Offerman was a model citizen when with the Twins; so I would not worry about Bradley
b. about DY’s “coachability”: the last person that the Twins’ masterminds claimed that was not coachable and they let him go was David Ortiz; methinks that the “coaches” should go before they do more damage (hey, if you have some time go read Ortiz’ book -and Hrbie’s for that matter- cheaper than a nose bleed seat at the dome and much more insightful…)
The Twins have nothing to trade. You have to go all the way down to low class A to find an OF (Revere).
Tolleson and Dinkleman are AA 2B, but they might not be ready. Those two aren’t going to bring much in a trade. Plouffe at AAA has some potential, but he’s been disappointing.
Drew Butera is all they have at catcher, until you go down to class A. He wouldn’t bring anything much in a trade. They are grooming him as a backup.
The major league pitching is thin right now. They need any little depth they have. The Twins usually always use 7-9 starters during the season.
Beisbol,
you are preaching to the choir about the Twins’ propensity to try to take power away…
(year old data, but it’s still good) check it out:
http://tenthinningstretch.blogspot.com/2008/04/bit-of-batting-research.html
The Twins have nothing to trade
I beg to differ:
Perkins
Guerrier
Bonser
Tolbert
Swarzak
Bonser
Humber
Mulvey
Plouffe
Cuddyer *yes teams will bite if the Twins eat up $
Dustin Martin
Joe Benson
Brock Peterson
Erik Lis
Matt Moses
Ryan Mullins
Yohan Pino
Oswaldo Sosa
etc etc etc
(and yes Bonser was mentioned twice because of a mistake and not because of girth)
thrylos98,
Who is this Pedro Martinez you want to add as a starting pitcher? Is he any relation to the Pedro Martinez that pitches for the Red Sox?
thrylos,
etc etc etc had a better year than Oswaldo Sosa and Matt Moses.
Sosa’s stats:
2-2 5.44 at High-A
2-5 5.81 at AA
Matt Moses’ stats
.230 3-35 at AA
Not much trade value there.
Walter Johnson,
Are either of those Pedro Martinez’s related to the Mets pitcher?
Aquire Manny. Do something special for once. Additionally, if you sign Manny then nobody gives a rip about the whole Cuddyer/Young/Kubel/Span/Gomez situation–trade whoever you want.I like the idea of Manny hitting between Mauer and Morneau.
Let Manny be Manny in Minny.
Or acquire Hanley Ramirez from the Fish. Send them all of AAA, half of AA, and a quarter of A. Sell the farm! Win now and pay later. Throw in Cuddyer and pay his contract. The Fish have proven willing to trade players for a steady pipeline of young talent.
yeah.
I’d rather have the future hall of famer (Expos/ Red Sox/ Mets) in the rotation next year, than Perkins. I think that he will be a great influence to the Twins’ young pitchers, especially Liriano
Gomez will probably try to kiss his cleats, but that’s a different story…
sane,
Sosa a couple years ago was what Deolis “the centerpiece” Guerro is today; that’s why I am mentioning him…
speaking of it,
who was the last hall of famer without local ties (i.e. Molitor and Winfield don’t count) who was signed by the Twins?
the first to answer the question correctly will receive a Twins’ vintage thingymagick of my choice
thrylos,
Kirby?
sane,
nope. Kirby was brought up by the Twins… he was not signed (he was drafted, but there is one later than him)
If Kirby was drafted by the Twins, but never signed, the Twins have a lot of old forfeits to confess.
no
I mean he was not signed as a free agent or traded from another team
Kirby did sign
(*but the f$(&(ing A’s have a lot of forfeits to confess based on PED useage….)
Steve Carleton
sane,
spellcheck, then send me your snailmail address at thrylos98 at yahoo dot com.
I can spare a couple of all star Twins’ autograph cards
thrylos98,
Steve Carlton is the correct spelling, and I’ll donate the prize to your favorite kid. (friend or relative)
sane,
cool…
i’ll take you up for it…
and here is a story that you might relate to:
Last spring I was asked to coach inner city high school kids (at a major municipality of the east coast). And I accepted. First thing I did was to bring in a bunch of signed cards from established major leaguers and hand it out to them. Their eyes popped open. A couple of them might make it to college ball or be drafted before that, but I am pretty damn sure that none of them will get killed by a gang-related gun fire… And that’s all I can do (other that having to explain the value of sacrificing or taking a walk…)
don’t know how cali is these days, but back east here, I am still teaching the two seamer and the forkball, over you know what…
thrylos98,
We have kids from a wide range of demographics where I coach.
A few of them find it necessary to separate themselves from inner-city problems in order to play and those kids are usually more grateful for the attention that coaches give them.
That, in turn, makes coaching those kids more gratifying for the coaches.
Everyone likes to be appreciated.
I didn’t realize until recently how much boys look up to men, be they uncles, fathers, mentors, teachers, coaches, etc.
I admire you gentlemen for being active in the lives of these boys.
everyone likes to be appreciated and they deserve it…
yeap. especially if they have to hurdle over a couple of drug dealers to make it to practice. And that’s where I draw the line and I am quasi sick of Minnesota nice temperance as far as Gardy goes…
A little overly simplistic, doncha think? The FO is hardly going to can Gardy over this one issue when he is touted as AL Manager of the Year.
Judging by some of the reactions around here…Punto is the only issue that ever matters.
Please get rid of Young. Sometimes players are described as ‘naturals’ for their position - Delmon is positively uncomfortable in the outfield. Making waist high basket catches (although NOT showing off like Rickey Henderson). He is also SO not clutch. He may have had a good batting average, but everytime he came up and we needed a big hit, Delmon struck out or grounded out. I am so over Delmon Young. I will take my chances with his replacement as long as we can solve the 3B problem…. since the Twins aren’t going to move Mauer there.
How about we try signing Guzman or Furcal and trade for Beltre and go after AJ Burnett or Tim Wakefield.
why would we move mauer to third? and young was only 23 this year cut him some slack
i dont think we should try to sign any big guns this summer. if u look at our track record at signing players durring the offseason it would seem as thogh none of them work out for us. the past couple years we have brung in new people only to have them lose their job to someone on our farm system or on the current roster. i think we have all the players we need on our team already
trade boof bonser, phil humber, totten for uggla - then trade blackburn, duensing for jj hardy and then trade slowey, mulvey for glaus.
leon,
Totten was released by Rochester in May.
Join a Fantasy League and make all the trades you like.
You are out of touch with Reality.
MY COMMENT IS ON JULY 31, THE TRADE LINE WHY DID WE NOT TRADE LIVAN HERNANZEZ, MIKE LAMB AND CRAIG MONROE WITH BASS AND SENT THME TO BALTIMORE FRO BRIAN ROBERTS IF WE HAD TO WE COULD HAVE THROWN IN AT THAT TIME BOOF BONSER AND ADAM EVERETT. WE ONLY GOT CASH INCENTIVE FOR BASS AT BALTIMORE THE OTHER WE LOST AND DID NOT GET ANYTHING IN RETURN NOW IF WE TRADE WE HAVE TO GIVE UP SOMEBODY
LEON JOE CROOK
I would say we trade Cuddyer,Perkins, Bonser for uggla and play him at 2nd. We then trade Mulvey, Ruiz, Guerrier,Buscher for RH Fuenntes from the Marlins. LINEUP:Span rf,Cassila ss, Mauer C MORNEAU 1b,Uggla 2b, Young rf, Kubel dh, Harris 3b Gomez cf,. With Tolbert and Hughes utility infeilders and e. Lis to back up 1b. Pitchers : Baker,Lariano,Slowey,Blackburn,Humber. Releif: Nathan,Neshek,Majares,Breslow, Crain, Delaney,Fuentas. world series bound!!!!.
Sorry to break it to you guys but Glaus and Bradley are not coming to Minnesota as long as you guys are in a dome on turf, especially Glaus. He has mentioned time and time again how much better he felt to be off of turf playing in St Louis he will block any trade back to turf surfaces….. and Milton knows he is only going to be successful as long as he is with Washington because that is the only manager he has had that truly understands him and doesn’t set him off like the 4th of July fireworks display.
Oh Leon…. I love Lamb and Everett to pieces, but there is no way they along with Hernandez, Monroe, Boof and Bass would have gotten you Roberts…… Baltimore would have laughed right in the Twin’s faces
okay my first comments might have been to idealistic, yet here is my observation starting pitching baker, perkins,liriano,slowey,blackburn up and coming in the minors duensing,swarzak,tyler,manship,mullins,guerra,mulvey,burnett,danielberlind, and phillip humber - the relief staff nathan,neshek,mirajes,guierrer,crain,slama,lahey,julianel,delany,korecky,and guiterrez believe it or not give bonser another year who knows he might be the ace in a year or two perhaps the only thing to upgrade somehow is a power hitter as everyone has said between mauer and morneau it seems we lost a lot of one run games if we had a power hitter to put a little fear into the pitcher who could hit for power. also, it would seem to me that it is not a whole lot of the players fault in one run losses, perhaps the managers could critique their skills and make better decisions first look to free agency for a power infielder then dh. keep the core of players you have for sure the fab starting five pitchers - because if you have to trade them later because they are going to ask for all the money like johan, then we can get 3-4 players in return for each one.
leon joe crooks
also, in continuation of my previous comments perhaps with a crowded outfield in young span gomez cuddyer kubel, in the minor league priddie mcdonald reveree martin winfree tosoni —- if we had to make that one big buster trade for a power infielder, perhaps package an oufielder, some combination of prospect pitchers, and one of our infielders who we would replace. Also make sure you do not get a veteran who is at the end of his career - even though you know you have to pay the big bucks later to keep the power infielder suggestions uggla,hardy and or atkins one of the three would sure be an upgrade.
leon joe crooks
for one thing, punctuation is not our enemy….. if you are going to list people separate them with something, that is insane. Secondly, Dan Uggla is not a defensive upgrade anywhere and will be too costly in terms of prospects and cash to resign him to keep him. Maybe Uggla could be decent depending on how the groundscrew decides how they are going to keep the grass cut when the twins move outdoors but on the turf and short grass the balls are going to eat him alive and he will have way too many costly errors.
Oh, Atkins is not going anywhere until Colorado knows what is going on with Helton…. cause they were liking the Stewart/Atkins corner combo if Helton needs to start the season on the DL…. Atty might be a midseason move.
Dan Uggla is not a defensive upgrade anywhere
Dan Uggla last year had a .981 FP and a .803 ZR which is comparable to Casilla’s .974 FP and .830 ZR
and will be too costly in terms of prospects and cash to resign him to keep him
I think that he will require about $5-6M a year for 2 years in arbitration money. As far as what would it take to get him, I think that Casilla and Humber would do it (but trading Casilla might be an unpopular opinion, even though the team would be better with Uggla at 2B)
