That one vote for Gardy
Posted on November 13th, 2008 – 10:39 AMBy Howard
The St. Petersburg Times is reporting that Cleveland reporter Terry Pluto cast the first-place vote for Ron Gardenhire that kept the Rays’ Joe Maddon from being the unanimous Manager of the Year selection in the American League. Gardy finished second for the fourth time.
In an interview on tampabay.com, Pluto explained: “The voting is done in the final week of the season, so I did not have the playoffs to consider,” Pluto said. “If they did the voting after, certainly Joe would have got it. I had great respect for both men, and gave the edge to Gardenhire for keeping his team in contention after losing Santana, etc. I had no idea how anyone else was voting. I certainly didn’t set out to stiff Joe by being the lone voice not to have him No. 1.”
Pluto also said, “I’m glad Joe won. Clearly after what he did in the playoffs, he deserves it. It’s just how it is.”
To me, Maddon was an easy choice. He took a franchise that had an alpha/omega tradition of horrendous baseball and got them into the World Serieswithin one game of the World Series. (Blogger’s note: Brain cramp repaired!) He did it with many of the same players who had been a part of the sucking noise we always heard from central Florida baseball — and he did it while doing a boatload of in-game managing. The things that stand out to me was how he worked through key injuries (Longoria and Crawford), B.J. Upton’s lack of hustle and a bullpen situation in which he often had to match the right reliever to the end-game situation.
One more note: Pluto is a veteran journalist and a good one. And if you’re wondering where you’ve heard his name before, he is the author of Loose Balls, an interview-rich history of the American Basketball Association, the offshoot league that spent a decade goosing the NBA a generation ago.
I think the Maddon ‘09 challenge is going to be even greater next year because he’s going to have to convince a pretty immature team that what it accomplished in 2008 doesn’t carry over, especially if key players spend a contented winter reveling in their accomplishments.
Give me odds and I’ll bet the Rays don’t win 80 next year.
***
The American League’s Cy Young Award winner is going to be announced today. Cliff Lee of Cleveland is the conventional-wisdom choice. Roy Halliday of Toronto will get some love (justified) and so will K-Rod (not as justified). Got thoughts on that one?
51 Responses to "That one vote for Gardy"
Maddon was the easy choice for #1. Gardy was the easy choice for #2.
Cliff Lee is a very easy choice for AL Cy Young.
Who cares if Maddon wasn’t unanimous? Why does the St. Petersburg Times even want to hunt that voter out? It’s not like it was the one loss on an otherwise undefeated season. It’s one vote in something which no one will ever again care about how the voting fell.
“anger” over stuff like this, that is both meaningless (the award) and trivial (by how much he won) is what causes problems in any society. Why can’t we just celebrate that he won, and not worry about other stuff that just makes people “angry” over nothing?
Depends how you look at it. I would have voted for Madden, but you could certainly make an argument that he had a lot more talent at his disposal then Gardy.
The fact that TB was last place, never won anything, and had to beat the Sox and Yankees….that gives it to him for me.
Yeah it’s too bad someone always upstages Gardy every year for top manager. If there were an award for overall manager of the decade where managers’ total annual votes were added up, Gardy would probably be #1 on the list. In hindsight I’m really surprised he didn’t win it in 2002–a rookie manager taking a team that was nearly contracted to the ALCS.
Cliff Lee should be a lock today. I hope K-Rod doesn’t get too much love. Beyond his save total his stats aren’t that great.
If K-Rod finishes in the top 3 for AL Cy Young all the people that vote for him should lose their voting privaleges. You could easily argue that he was maybe the third or fourth best Closer in the AL. I would vote Lee number won followed by a close number two in Roy Halliday.
No way can a guy be manager of the year when he uses Rincon in six close and late situations within two weeks of his outright release.
I would rather have Halladay pitch in a game 7, rather than Lee. Halladay had a great year, I wouldn’t be surprized if he gets the award.
K-Rod, and relievers in general, should not be in the top five.
[…] A Fan’s View – […]
K-Rod should not receive any more votes than Brad Lidge gets. Lidge’s accomplishments this year are far greater than K-Rod’s - I think 41 saves in 41 opportunities is a much better feat than 62 saves in 69 opportunities. 90% of the closers would have at least 62 saves if they had 69 opportunities.
I think the guys who voted for Mike Sciosia (sp?) over Ron Gardenhire should be hunted down, too. And anyone who left Gardy off the list completely. And the joker who voted for Ozzie Guillen in the top three.
If we want to call people out.
I agree jama. Not only does K-Rod not deserve the CY, he doesn’t even deserve the Fireman award. Don’t get me started on how overvalued the closer position has become. Even then, he was NOT the best closer in the game. Yes, he had the most saves, but that’s an arbitrary and crappy statistic. On peripherals, Joe Nathan or Mariano would be considered the best closer in the AL.
“He took a franchise that had an alpha/omega tradition of horrendous baseball and got them within one game of the World Series.”
??? Tampa Bay was in the World Series. And if you meant, “within one game of winning the World Series,” they lost it 4 games to 1. So kind of an errant sentence. Just sayin’.
Gardy’s a great manager. Too bad we can’t say the same about the head guy of Minnesota’s NFL franchise. Hey, does Gardy know anything about football?
Gardy is above average at best. Come on! I have witnessed many managers in over 40 years and he is not in the top 5 in Twins history. He is what he is - a .500 to .549 manager no more no less.
I am not going to comment of what kind of manager Gardy is and whether or not he costs or gives his team wins.
But here is something to look at: Team win differential AL 2008 from 2007:
Rays +31 (1)
White Sox +17 (5)
Twins +9 (2)
Royals +6
Angels +6 (3)
Rangers +4
Toronto +3 (6)
Red Sox -1 (4)
Orioles -1
As -1
Yankees -5
Tigers -12
Indians -15
Mariners -27
In parenthesis is the ranking of the team’s manager in the manager of the year award.
Now tell me that the vote is no more than a popularity contest?
And I don’t know what Terry Pluto smokes to vote for Gardenhine ahead of Maddon and Guillen.
So Howard,
No comment on the Neshek affair? I guess I can’t think of much to say about it other than, ‘oh well,’ but maybe you have something more to add to it? Is this team going to be ok with Mijares/Breslow/someone from outside organization setting up Nathan next season? I don’t know who else in that rotation would be capable.
The White Sox underachieved last year, and this year got closer to how they should play, thus the win differential.
Guillen has a lot more talent and couldn’t get his team to perform.
Gardy gets consistency and over-achieving out of a young team wiht no established talent (similar to Maddon)
Gardy gets consistency and over-achieving out of a young team wiht no established talent
funny, I just posted this on Joe’s blog:
here is a quote:
“[Bill] James lists the Minnesota Twins as the #1 team in all of baseball for young talent, even though they don’t have a single young player in the top 25: “But they have 6 players in the top 100, 8 in the top 120, and 10 in the top 150. The average team has 5 players in the top 150; the Twins have 10—Joe Mauer, Delmon Young, Justin Morneau, Kevin Slowey, Scott Baker, Carlos Gomez, Nick Blackburn, Jason Kubel, Denard Span and Glen Perkins. And then they have Michael Cuddyer, and Francisco Liriano, and Boof Bonser, and Craig Breslow, and then they have a bunch of other guys. The Twins rank seventh in the majors in young pitching talent, and first in non-pitching talent. The Twins ranked 11th on this list last year, and moved forward basically because of the development of the young pitchers. They’re loaded.”
from here:
http://sportsmedianews.com/10/bill-james-names-mlbs-top-young-talent/
No more excuses about talent. I just hope/expect to see results
To say Gardy is not in the top 5 of Twins Managers just shows your stupidity. He has the 2nd highest win percentage in Twins history. The only one better is Billy Martin and he only coached 1 season (so I would put him higher just from the loyalty aspect.) The fact we expect to go to the WS every year goes to show how much he has improved the culture around here. To have only one losing season in 6 his hard for any team to do, much less the medium budget Twins.
thrylos, that list is exactly why I don’t think they should make any blockbuster trades. Free agents, fine, open up the checkbook. No more trading young pitchers.
Like with everything else it seems, We have some extreme opinions about Gardy too. My observation is that he is above par as a clubhouse/team manager, and perhaps can be legitimately criticized for occasional lapses in game management. On balance, he’s top echelon in my opinion.
“Gardy gets consistency and over-achieving out of a young team wiht no established talent”
I’d consider Mauer, Morneau and Nathan to be established talent.
I still don’t think we’ll ever see another WS as long as Gardy is at the helm. He does do a lot of things right, but he consistently shoots this team in the foot by (a) playing favorites and (b) mismanaging the bullpen.
No way can a guy be manager of the year when he uses Rincon in six close and late situations within two weeks of his outright release.
Add Brian Bass to the list of brain dead reliever usage.
No more trading young pitchers.
Well, can’t be that absolute. I think that the Twins could have traded some of the yank pitching earlier, when there were enough signs of potential decline but yet they has some value (Mays, Lohse, Rincon come to mind) instead of waiting and practically giving them away…
So I guess it is to burn out the other 2 good relivers so you guys can’t bash him. Oh wait he did do that. By the way Rincon was one of the best setup men in the game just less then 2 years ago. Because someone has a bad game or two is not a reason to sit him. Gardy gave him the chance to succeed or fail and when he failed the Twins got rid of him. If he sat on the bench and pitched mop up duty for the rest of the season it would have been a wasted spot.
SDVike, the only time Rincon was any good was when he was on the juice. He did not have a “bad game or two” before the Twins let him go. His entire 2008 Twins’ season was awful. Every time he brought him in I said “Gardy has given up on this game.”
Kay, yes it was bad and yes he was gone by the end of May. If you are going to have an overpaid reliever you either use him or get rid of him. They got rid of him. If he sits the bench and never plays management would never get rid of the guy.
“And I don’t know what Terry Pluto smokes to vote for Gardenhine ahead of Maddon and Guillen.”
Yeah. Because a guy obviously has to be on drugs to think that Gardenhire did a better job managing than Joe Maddon or Ozzie Guillen. Because win differential is completely controlled by a manager.
I think he explained it pretty well. He thought that the Twins were going to take a step backwards with the losses of Santana and Hunter, and was surprised by them competing. I guess he wasn’t aware that they only way to truly measure a manager is by how many more wins they got this year than last.
Unless I remember correctly, Gardy was the one who decided to start the season with 2 of the teams major contributors (Span and Casilla) in the minors this year and injuries forced him to take them in the team and using them.
And if I also remember correctly, wasn’t Gardy the one that keep watching Livan blow game after game in July while Liriano was blanking other teams in Rochester? And wasn’t he the one who had a public urination match with Liriano’s agent about it?
One win. That was the difference this year. And Gardy blew it.
thrylos -
.258/.324/.258 - Those are the splits that Span posted the first time he was up with the club in April. Didn’t really ‘win’ a job, did he? What if he struggles for a whole month and never gets his confidence?
.243/.305/.303 - Alexi Casilla’s numbers after the All-Star Break. Doesn’t look like he contributed much the entire second half of the season. What if his downfall starts earlier in the season?
.289/.336/.509 - Opposing batters against Francisco Liriano in September. Looks almost like Livan Hernandez numbers to me. What if he starts pitching poorly in August instead of September?
We can play the ‘what-if’ game all we want. Bottom line - a Gardenhire managed team was tied with the Guillen managed team after 162 games, when many experts picked the Twins to finish 4th in the division.
One win. That was the difference this year. And the players blew it.
many experts picked the Twins to finish 4th in the division
How many Twins games did those “experts” see collectively? More than 10?
And how many Twins games did Terry Pluto see last season before voting for Gardy as the best manager in the league? More than 2?
I doubt it.
The players are the ones who got the Twins where they were last year not Gardy. Rincon, Bass, Guerrier in there blowing game after blowing game. Buscher starting pretty much in September while flirting with the Mendoza line and Harris being left on the bench to rot despite hitting .324 in September. Redmond in the 3-spot in every game he played. etc etc
Do you know one common thing the other 5 managers have? They all got their teams to the World Series and 4 out of 5 won. Not Gardy.
Way to reward a losing “leader” with a contract extension. Apparently the Twins expect as much accountability from their manager as AIG does from theirs. Great message delivered there: Losing is fine.
‘08 was a rebuilding, re-tooling, let’s see what we got year. And yet the team finished tied for 1st. Span, Cassilla, Gomez, Liriano, Blackburn, Perkins, and Slowey will decide how this team performs next year. If they do well, the team will excell, if they take steps backwards, so will this team.
The Rays will win 85, easy. Cliff Lee should be unanimous.
Halladay was the best pitcher for the reasons Joe mentions and more. W-L record does not reflect someone’s pitching ability per se; ask Livan Hernandez and Glenn Perkins. But so doesn’t the number of saves a pitcher recorded… Papelbon, Rivera, Nathan, even Soria and middle relievers like Balfour pitched better than K-Rod last year.
Because that statement might sound absurd, here is the Balfour/K-Rod comparison:
Balfour: 1.54 ERA, 0.891 WHIP, 12.66 K/9, 3.42 K/BB
K-Rod: 2.24 ERA, 1.288 WHIP, 10.14 K/9, 2.26 K/BB
“The players are the ones who got the Twins where they were last year not Gardy. ”
Absolutely they were. I think that the Manager of the Year award is stupid. Managers don’t play the game. They don’t field balls, throw strikes, or hit doubles. For everything negative you can come up with for Gardy, there is a positive about him. For everything positive about Maddon and Guillen, there is a negative.
I’ve gone over it before. I highly doubt that Joe Maddon is a different coach than he was 2 years ago, or even last year. So if you want to credit him for a 31 win increase over last year, shouldn’t you also mention that it was he who managed the Rays to a 66-96 record last year?
So you can complain all you want about how the Twins just gave Gardenhire an extension, and how they are rewarding a ‘losing “leader”‘ as you put it. Just realize that people who might very well watch more baseball than you do think he is one of the best in the game. 4 second places and a third place in his 7 years of managing kind of support that.
Pete D,
my problem is with the schizophrenicity of this place:
Lets look at the last 2 years.
The 2007 Twins were as bad as the 2006 Vikings. The 2008 Twins were as bad as the 2007 Vikings. Everyone is screaming about firing Chilly (and I don’t blame them) but the same people are rejoiced about Gardy getting an extension. Do you get it? Because it escapes me…
Thrylos…a lot of things seem to escape you! I just love guys like you who love to criticize Gardy or the players constantly. Really-do you think the MLB is going to tap YOU to be a big league manager? Your coaching from the couch and 20/20 hindsights aren’t worth much. Thanks!
Gardy is highly regarded and respected by his players and most everyone in baseball. He also is humble, admitting in interviews that he is “just a beginner” and that “he has a lot to learn.” He also didn’t want to sign a contract before knowing his coaches would be taken care of. He is a great leader and the man knows baseball. Span and Casilla needed time in the minors, and let’s not forget that Casilla had a .219 avg when he was called up, and Span wasn’t doing too much better. Sorry thrylos, but your arrogance disgusts me. Let’s not even compare the Twins and the Vikings, ok? The Twins tean are winners who generally avoid controversary and scandal, work hard and usually cheap, and have accomplished more than any other pro team has in our state. The Vikes are overpaid, overblown, and have a scandal on an almost weekly basis. The Vikings can carry the Twins bags as far as I’m concerned, ok? The Twins team is the M & M boys, Nathan, Liriano, and a bunch of no names, and they have had a winning record every year but ‘07 since Gardy took over. Every sportswriter, scout, former player, or true fan knows Gardy is the real deal. You think you can do better? I’d love to see you try!
Thrylos,
Everything is magnified in football because of the 16 game season (Very similar to baseball’s playoffs). There are plenty of things that happen over the course of the regular season that can make Gardy look good, but when the importance of the games are magnified shortcomings are exploited as his 6-15 record in the post-season indicates.
“Everyone is screaming about firing Chilly (and I don’t blame them) but the same people are rejoiced about Gardy getting an extension. Do you get it? Because it escapes me…”
Sure. In football, 6 teams out of 16 in a conference make the playoffs. The Vikings have exactly 1 playoff appearance since the days of Denny Green and his high powered offense. None of those appearances have been under Brad Childress. Also, the team has been carried by the defense since he was hired, even though he was hired as an offensive coach.
So, fans of the Vikings don’t like Childress because he has failed to take his team to a playoff appearance, and hasn’t really improved the team like he was supposed to when he came in.
Gardenhire, on the other hand, took a team that had been terrible for years and was finally making an improvement to the playoffs in 3 of his first 4 years. He also managed a team that many expected to be poor this year to a one game playoff. So fans are excited when he gets an extension because his teams have won.
So in basic terms - fans want Childress fired because he hasn’t produced a winner. Fans cheer Gardenhire because he has.
alright, my point is this (or these):
The Twins haven’t won a world series since 1991. In 2006 they were favored and they chocked. Gardy inherited pretty much the same team in 2007 and he led them to a record of 13 less wins and to a third place. Some of us last spring (forget about the ESPN ‘experts’) predicted that this team will win 89 games and the AL Central, based on the changes made (let me know and I will give you links). And, yes, 89 would have put the Twins on top.
Back to the other side of the coin: When the other team was a field goal away from a guy who never missed, everyone was screaming against the coach (and mind you much higher successful than Gardy in their respective leagues). And all the Twins fans who are trading their blue and red for purple and gold in the fall, for some reason expected more from their football team.
Why is that? As a matter of fact the Twins have a higher probability of wining than the Vikings, yet the same fans are satisfied with the Twins losing and screaming about the Vikings losing.
Fast Forward. A new stadium was approved for the Twins, meanwhile, while the Vikings (who btw have amassed a better winning record than the Twins for the last 15 years) are left to hang. Twins lose, Vikes lose. The “community” is up in arms about the Vikes and their coaching deficiencies but Gardy and the Twins can do no wrong for some uber-existential reason.
And yes sing Gardy to a lifetime contract…
gee
The Vikings have NEVER won a Super Bowl. Fans were upset with Denny Green, yet they didn’t call for his head after that game. I don’t even remember fans calling for his head anyway - it was more a clash between Denny Green and management, wasn’t it?
Anyway - I’m glad you thought the Twins should win 89 games. However, people who are paid to know about baseball disagreed with you.
Alright. Now let’s look at the differences between the 2006 Twins and the 2007 Twins. First thing that jumps out at me is the 2007 Twins didn’t have 28 games of Francisco Liriano - 16 starts - and 28 starts out of Brad Radke. They got worse pitching out of Johan Santana than they did the year before. Joe Mauer played in 31 fewer games. Nick Punto had one of the worst offensive seasons ever. Morneau regressed. Castillo was dealt. Bartlett regressed. I can go on and on.
As for the stadiums - look at the amounts of money. The Vikings aren’t getting a stadium because they want a billion dollars for 10 dates. The Twins stadium is a third of that for 8 times the amount of dates.
But I’m pretty sure it all boils down to one thing - winning. Ron Gardenhire is the manager of a winning team. Brad Childress is not.
Oh, and one last thing. This statement - “As a matter of fact the Twins have a higher probability of wining than the Vikings,” - makes no sense to me. Are you saying it’s easier for the Twins to make the playoffs? Or easier to win a championship? What are you saying?
Thyrlos-Gardy is 5th amongst active mgrs in winning percentages in the last 7 years. Who is ahead of him? Cox, LaRussa, Torre and Sciosca, they all have been active longer to win a championship. Let’s also keep in mind that NYY, Cards, LAA, and the Braves all have significantly higher payrolls and buying power as well. That’s damn impressive company and nuff said there.
I spent one month down at spring training and everyone I know considered 2008 a “rebuilding year.” My expectations were to be happy if we played .500 ball. You constantly comparing the Twins to the Vikings just doesn’t hold water. You can’t compare winning percentages of 16 games to a 162 game season that stretches over a half a year. You complained that the last World CHampionship the Twins won was in ‘91…when was the last year the Vikes won the Superbowl? Oh-that’s right-NEVER! Finally, if you can’t stand Gardy, then don’t watch. Watch the Vikes try to stay above .500 with their gigantic payroll and egos. I’m going to watch my Twins scrap.
Gardy is 5th amongst active mgrs in winning percentages in the last 7 years.
*yawn*
What would his winning percentage be if he hadn’t been gift wrapped a roster ripe for winning to start his career? It’s likely that most managers could have stepped in and done just as well.
I’m sure Gardy would love to be fired. He would have his pick of jobs and for alot more than the Twins are paying him. That is the kind of respect he has around the league.
I’m sure Gardy would love to be fired.
I am not talking about firing him. He had another year left in his contract. Let the year play out and based on the team’s performance extend him or not.
Snepp-just don’t watch. If you can’t understand that Gardy is a great coach, you don’t understand enough about the game to be watching. Ask most players in the league and they will tell you the top two managers that everyone wants to play for are Mike Sciosca and Gardenhire.
Walter-you are dead on. Gardy would be snapped up in a heartbeat.
Thrylos,
Agree 100% about Gardy. Who knows how many more games in the 2008 win column if he hadn’t bullheadedly played …ahem…PUNTO every dang day despite his utter inability to get a hit with RISP.
I really think frank Quilici was the best twins skipper!!
