Is the time right to trade Carlos Gomez?
Posted on November 20th, 2008 – 8:29 AMBy Howard
In a post last week, I made reference to the fact that Carlos Gomez is represented by Scott Boras, a name that chills front-office staffs throughout baseball. That note caused the commenter Jim Crikket to write: “I had forgotten that Gomez’s agent is Boras. That, in itself, moves him to the top of the list of Twins OFs that I’d trade if the decision is made to thin the OF herd. He’s a potential Gold Glove CF, but he’s clearly got problems with the bat and when you add the fact that, as a Boras client, there’s no way he remains a Twin beyond his arbitration years, yeah… he’s #1 on the ‘expendable OF’ list in my book… especially since it appears Span can handle the CF job just fine.”
So here are my questions:
*Does a team with the ongoing needs of the Twins, especially when it comes to power, need two players who essentially do the same thing — play a solid center field, run very well, hit a few homers and have the potential (one shown in 2008, one still developing) to bat leadoff for years to come?
*Would you be looking to trade one of them sooner rather than later? If so, which one would you deal? Or would you rather have Gomez in center and Span in right for the next several years?
*Do you buy the notion, advanced by Gomez and sometimes talked about on Twins broadcasts, that he will eventually be a middle-of-the-order hitter who will combine power and speed?
*How much should Gomez’ popularity figure into the discussion?
*What does it say if a team jettisons a player because it is wary of dealing with his agent?
When front office staffs hold their post-season meetings, they are typically not only planning for the following season, but for years down the road. The best thing for 2009 isn’t always what’s best for the 2010s, and one of management’s jobs is to balance present and future needs — and try to figure out ways to meet both at the same time.
You can bet that Delmon wasn’t acquired from Tampa Bay to become possible trade material a year later. But things change and now that issue has been under discussion. Span’s progress, which was surprising to most of us, is probably sparking some conversations the Twins wouldn’t want to make public.
But that doesn’t mean we can’t talk about it.
195 Responses to "Is the time right to trade Carlos Gomez?"
Howard:
Great questions. Bottom line in CF is that the Twins are a better team when Span is in the line-up. Does Gomez have more upside? Maybe. But his at-bats are more often than not brutal. He really reminds me more of an old Denny Hocking than a young Torii Hunter when it comes to offense.
I dont think Boras should be of consideration. His contract is years away from FA, and if Boras was the main concern, there would be no reason to keep him and see if he develops. If he does, his trade value would be much higher than it would be right now. I think the main issue is what kind of value could the Twins receive, and at what position? If they could get a SS, 3B, or RF that they could provide some consistent offense and power, than trading Gomez would seem to me a no-brainer.
Imagine if Cuddyer’s finger hadn’t been hurt so bad last year, Span never would have had the chance to start and we wouldn’t even be having the discussion of a jammed outfield.
I can’t decide which outfielder I’d most want to trade. More than likely injuries will play their role again and instead of having a great outfielder on the bench, we’d be calling on Pridie to come up and start.
I don’t think anyone other than the M&M boys are untouchable. That doesn’t mean you mean you have to trade Baker or someone like that but if there is a good offer out there I would seriously consider offers on any of the players. This team isn’t talented enough at this point in time to close off avenues that may be open.
The guy I really think they should see what kind of value he has is Liriano. With his delivery and past history of injury I don’t see his value going up much. If you could get a starting SS or 3B along with a young quality pitcher and a prospect or two for Liriano I would probably pull the trigger.
Howard,
The other thing to consider is that the Twins have a couple of good young prospects that will be coming up in the next couple of years that all play CF. Revere and Hicks are 2 of the top 5 prospects in the Twins organization and they both play CF.
I think the Twins should deal either Gomez or Span. Put feelers out on both, and see what you get in return. But I’d hate to deal Gomez, only to find out that Denard Span is the second coming of Lew Ford.
I think it really depends on what other teams think Gomez’s trade value is. If the Twins could get a player like JJ Hardy in a trade where the main centerpiece of the trade is Gomez, then a throw in or two like Bonser or Dunsing, then I’d be all for it.
Why don’t we just trade Jason Pridie for Garrett Atkins. That seems to be the most logical move
I think you trade him after his stock goes up. I’m one of the optimists about him. I think he learned some things and he’s close to a breakout. Based on this hunch, I think his value will be much higher after 2009 than before.
Gomez was the centerpiece in the Santana trade. If they turn around and trade Gomez, who has all the potential in the world, it would be very distressing. Having Span and Gomez in the outfield is not a problem for me - they cover more ground than anybody. I would much rather see Cuddy or Young traded.
I’d like to see them keep them both this season, and then move one of them with a bit more information than they have now about the minor league prospects and the two players themselves.
I think Gomez showed improvement in the 9th spot. He’s clearly not lazy and is willing to be taught.
Consider this: Gomez without refinement and sometimes embarrasing at the plate had about the same year as Ellsbury who is more refined and ready for prime time.
Ellsbury: Avg .280 HR 9 RBI 47 Runs 98
SB 50 (he had a great last month).
Gomez: Avg .258 HR 7 RBI 59 Runs 79 SB 33
AGE: Gomez -22 Ellsbury -25.
Give Gomez 3 more years and i bet you he surpasses Ellsbury.
it makes no sense to deal any of the outfielders now. all (except maybe cuddyer) are on the upswing and their value will never be lower. trade cuddyer and wait until gomez’s stock rises and see what his asking price will be. span had one good year (among several mediocre in the minors) so he’s definitely not a ’sure thing.’ delmon looked lost at the plate, so i’m not convinced on him either. making a move to ’solidify’ the young OF right now is a huge mistake. let’s keep our options open
i don’t think they could get much for either, right now. they would have to be in packages with other players, and what’s really the point in doing that? span is a legitimate leadoff hitter for years and gomez is a fan favorite who could develop into rickey henderson part 2 if the twins can teach him some plate discipline (they did it for span + casilla last year, anything’s possible).
Oh and here’s another BIG POINT in regards to the Ellsbury and Gomez (who may be always linked in their careers b/c of the Santana trade discussions)
Ellsbury hit in the most hitter friendly AL park, while Gomez hit in the most difficult one.
With the way Gomez and Span cover ground in the outfield, Jim Thome could play left….
So, no, I don’t think you trade either of them.
I think we still need to give him a chance. Think of all the pressure that was on his back this year. He was the centerpiece in a trade for a Cy Young award winner. That is a lot of weight to put on a player. He will rebound in the next couple of years after he learns that he doesn’t need to be compared to Santana all the time. Once he relaxs and just plays the game I think we will finally see what we have been looking for in Gomez, a quality fielder that can put the ball in play 3 out of every 10 at bats.
I don’t think Span will ever develop power or be a better fielding CF than Gomez. Gomez may never develop power either, but at least he has the potential. I think Casilla could be a decent lead-off hitter if Span was traded. Some teams are going to like Span more, some teams Gomez more. I think it would be hard to shop one without the other one entering into the discussion.
No
Keep both for now unless someone offers something truly too good to pass up.
I am up in the air about this. I like the potential of Gomez, his speed and overall athleticism and effort cannot be overlooked. I also love Span, the dude is out to prove something and I love that. He also has poise at the plate and decent pop on the bat. Those two, with Delmon Young are the future of our outfield.
I absolutely love Cuddy and his presence, but he has to be the odd man out here. I say we hold on to him and rotate the outfied this year with 4 guys, then jettison Cuddy next year.
Howard,
I am very impressed by all the sane and reasonable comments this morning. A credit to your question formulation.
Here’s my two cents. You can’t trade Gomez yet for the simple fact that he’s so far the best thing we got in the trade for maybe the best pitcher in franchise history. Doing so would admit we screwed up for one. Also, you can see the guy has talent, he just has to work really hard on his offensive game and sure up his defense so the silly mistakes stop.
I don’t know if I buy that he’ll be a middle of the order guy someday and I’m not sure that’s a bad thing. With the guy’s speed, would you want him batting down in the order where he would have less opportunities to steal bases because of slower guys on base in front of him?
As for one poster’s comment that he’s more Denny Hocking than a young Torii Hunter, come on, seriously. The guy hit in the .250’s this year. I can’t remember the last time Denny ever did that. Plus Denny was never an everyday player. If you look at the numbers, Gomez is pretty much at the same point that Torii was in his rookie year. Yes, he has brutal at-bats. So did Torii. Heck, Torii still does! Just not as many. That’s what we are hoping will happen with Gomez. That he’ll at least cut down on the stupid swings or dumb at -bats. Give the kid time. He’s only 22. Also, who his agent is should not come into play until about a year before he’s a free agent. By then, he’ll be at the prime of his career and we would be able to get the most bang for our buck if we decide to trade him. Barring injury which you can’t predict anyway.
Keep our outfield intact, trade Cuddy, and some of the decent talent we have rotting in the minors. Span, Gomez and Young are the future of our outfield. Let some of the talent in the minors get the chance with another team by way of trade, I still think B.B. at third is a good solution, let him get some experience and in 3 years he will be hitting 25 dongs a year. Go back and look at the Casey Blake early years. Then again, its the Twins, never easy to pull the trigger on a good trade. Or they sign someone older Yankee Stadium. I had a dream they brought Gary Ward out of retirement??? Stranger things have happened, remember, it’s the Twins.
Howard, I’m glad you brought up the Gomez issue. I really believe (despite all the hype) if there are 2 potential “flash in the pan” players on this team its Gomez and Young.
YES, they could become good players, but after wathcing them a full year, I’m much less convinced.
Gomez is a good enough fielder and will get better, but I’m not sure he has the hand-eye coordination to ever have a good batting avg or OBP. Therefore if he’s going to be a 4th outfielder/pinch runner for this team, he could be expendable for the right deal.
Delmon is not a good fielder and unlike Gomez will get worse as a fielder with age. He’s at best DH material with a good batting average, but at 10-12 HR’s per year not many teams will want him to DH…at least yet.
My conclusion is the league still has high regard for these 2 as potential prospects. They will bring more in trade than anyone other outfielder on this team. I would trade Delmon first if I could, or Carlos second.
Okay, giving up god players for these 2 was a mistake. Billy was trying to make impact his first year. If you get someone good in return now, its okay to cut bait. This team needs a great SS or 3B right now much more than a 4th outfielder. We must get the extra missing pieces for this team NOW when our core of star players is nearing their peak.
Look there will (unfortunately) come a time when we have to trade GoGo, but that time is far away! His value will continue to go up as he progresses into super stardom. Span is the best lead off hitter that the twins have had in 30 years. Trade Cuddyer his contract was not a good decision in the first place. DY is the third piece to the most talented young outfield in baseball.
I personally think it would be insane to trade Gomez. He has all the ability that you could want and he has the work ethic to go with it. The kid is fantastic and is already the best defensive CF in the game, IMO. Not to mention he is a fan fav and this is a business.
He improved at the plate towards the end of the year. If you look at his splits for the last month and his time in the 9th spot in the order you can see his improvements as the year went along. If we trade him, we will regret it.
As for Span I see a guy that isn’t going to get much better. I see last year as about the best you can expect from him. That isn’t bad, he was a good player, but he doesn’t have all that raw ability.
I would move Span and sell high, rather than move Gomez and sell low.
If push comes to shove - who would you trade between Span and Gomez?
(answer: neither, trade Delmon)
I see Span to be more similar to Jacoby Ellsbury in terms of batting, speed, defense, smarts, maturity.
That’s what we need out of a leadoff hitting CF.
I’d take either Denard or Ellsbury over Gomez. And oddly I think we could get more in trade for Go-Go than Span.
Would Milwaukee or Atlanta take Gomez (and a 2nd tier pitcher) for either Hardy or Cabrera?
“Give Gomez 3 more years and i bet you he surpasses Ellsbury.”
Yes, but that is when being represented by Mr. Boras starts to kick in. That’s part of what Howard is talking about.
Personally, I am standing by them just keeping all five outfields. Injuries happen. Pitching matchups. Depth is good. Unless of course, there is a deal out there that must be taken.
Don’t trade Go-Go. How would the Twins replace him and his great nickname?
I think Go-Go has more potential than Span, and Span is more likely to stick with the game plan and be a consistently good player. They’re just two different types of players.
I like ‘em both, and I think the Twins should hang onto the best outfield tandem in the league.
great idea brad. go go has great upside. cuddy is the odd man out unfortunatley. he only average with the bat at best and cant get past that slider he whiffs on most of the time. twins keep doing what they are doing. if gardy made the move to mijares a little sooner the twins probably would have been a game ahead at seasons end. neshek a huge setback. nathan, neshek, mijares, crain, breslow, reyes (if he stays) great pen. now we need to replace nesh. tough area. venziano and hughes are coming. most hr leaders are ego maniacs anyway and wont fit with the twins team play. young is coming. only 22 give him a chance to grow. most teams would love to finnish where the twins do every year. by the way. thanks for the great year minnesota twins. that comeback againts chi towners at the dome down 6-1 was the best game i ever saw in my life. throat still hurting.
They are different players with different ceilings. Gomez’ ceiling is Ricky Henderson whereas Span’s in Kenny Lofton. Gomez projects more as a middle of the lineup hitter, where Span projects as a top of the order hitter.
Gomez was the best fielding CF in the AL last season. He is under club control until 2012 (Span is until 2013). You just don’t trade someone before they reached their prime. When Gomez might be expensive, the financial dynamics around the Twins will probably be different. The current highly regarded OF prospects (Revere, Hicks, Angel Morales) would be ready in 2011-12. Depending on how they are faring, you might make a trade then.
The one thing that needs to happen is move Span to the left field and have Delmon starting at right. Having 3 outfielders, the oldest of whom is 23 under club control for 3 more years the least is a good thing. You don’t want to trade players (esp when their value hasn’t peak) just to trade players and open holes when you don’t have to open holes.
Seems like the Twins have 6 players (Kubel, Cuddy, Morneau, Span, Gomez, Young) for five spots and that’s a good thing. A rotation where they all get to play somewhere around 5 of 6 games (give or take) would be great. It would keep people rested. I also wonder why we don’t move Span to left and Young to right. Span can cover the vast left field territory much better than Young and Young has the classic right field cannon.
I vote keep all 4 OF for one more year. Then see how Revere is progressing. (Hicks is at least 2 years away–probably 3). If it looks like Revere could be the 4th OF after 2009–trade one based on value. Remember injuries happen–I would hate to see Twins bring up Pridie after trading one cause of injury or using a Craig Monroe type.
To be honest–either Span or GoGomez will have down year next year–hard to tell which will turn into Lew Ford but one could–give it a year to find out.
DAM
thrylos -
2 quick things.
1. Span really can’t play left - he throws left handed. That means anything down the line he has to pivot to make a throw. I can’t think of many left-handed throwing left fielders.
2. Folks really need to ease off the ‘Rickey Henderson’ ceiling stuff. Henderson had a career OBP of .401. During Rickey’s age 22 season he hit .319/.408/.437 and was the MVP runner up to Rollie Fingers. I can’t fathom Carlos Gomez ever having an OBP near .400, let alone continuing that for 20 years.
I’ve said from the get go to deal Span. His value will NEVER EVER be higher and I am not convinced last year was not a fluke. We have young center fielders in the farm system. Package him with a pitcher and get a middle infielder or third baseman. Cubbies want a left-handed hitting outfielder, lets try for Ramirez at third base. Wouldnt that be nice. I know just a pipe dream.
Thrylos, I want to put you on the spot!
If Gomez’ ceiling is Ricky Henderson and Span’s is Kenny Lofton, what is Delmon’s?
Be kind!
Pete D.,
Wouldn’t it be the same for right-handed right fielders? I think there would be an advantage to a left-handed left fielder not having to backhand a ball hit down the line.
Pete D,
Carl Crawford is a fine left-fielder, so was Garrett Anderson when younger. They both throw left-handed. Re: ‘Henderson ceiling’: Ceiling is the top of potential. The likelihood that Gomez will capture that potential is very low. It is not a comparison.
Great question Howard. I don’t think the fact that Boras is his agent should make any difference you cant fault him for doing a great job of getting his clients top dollar the problem with the obscene contracts is all on the owners and GM’s. The thing about Gomez is he brought a lot of excitement to the Twins last year and in return that put more butts in the seats for the Twins and if he continues to improve his value will go way up for that reason alone. I know it’s a gamble but i think they need to hold onto him until he’s eligible for arbitration at least and then weigh there options.
Unbelievable! says:
November 20th, 2008 at 9:49 am
“Howard, I’m glad you brought up the Gomez issue. I really believe (despite all the hype) if there are 2 potential “flash in the pan” players on this team its Gomez and Young.”
Unbelievable - based on what? If anything as last year wound down, Young and Gomez were improving as Span was getting worse.
Young: Someone on a prior blog showed how DY basically hit .280 to .300 wether it was a fastball or any kind of breaking pitch. as much as we hated him hitting the first pitch, i think his splits on that are pretty good too. i think part of his problem with the fans is that he doesnt have a personality. the guy has great potential. sure he’s akward in field (maybe switch Span and him?).
Span: Watching him in the OF is a treat. Gomez and him are electric and i’d pay for the ticket if i was in MN still just to see them chase down fly balls. i think he’s going to come out somewhere between pre and post-lasik surgery numbers. he’s exudes confidence and you trust him at the top of the order.
Gomez: why would you trade him? at least send him down AAA for a while maybe, but he’s going to be a unique player.
Cuddy: OVERRATED!!!!! dont get me wrong- he’s a nice guy. i think what happened here is that we were STARVED for outfield production since Puckett had left and we didnt want to lose the one guy with possible pop in the OF. but in all honesty, aside for his arm, he’s not above average in anything. Trade him when you can.
Why would you think of trading your young and possibly exceptional talent b/c of possible contract issues in 4 yrs when you already went and overspent on someone (Cuddy) who has less talent. i just dont get it. these kids overall got us to the best record in the division last year (M & M didnt do it alone).
Span is the best lead off hitter that the twins have had in 30 years
ouch. Chuck Knoblauch, Kirby Puckett and Shane Mack may disagree
No, don’t trade Gomez or Span!!They both provide a spark to the team with their enthusiasm and athleticism..
Both have got bright futures ahead of them & if they were to trade either one, I see them coming back & proving why we shouldn’t have traded them!! I really like Cuddyer, but he doesn’t possess the same potential that Denard & Carlos offer, so I’d trade him or Kubel before them… Just my 2 cents
You need to trade quality for quality, so trade Kubel for a 3B, let Cuddy DH, and keep Gomez and his crazy antics in CF. He’s the most fun Twin to watch and another year under Gardy’s watch should get him straightened out. As Gardy said, his enthusiasm fires up the entire lineup.
Are we really having this conversation about two guys who will cost the Twins just $600,000 next year each at worst? On top of that, the only two baseball writers that I trust (Keith Law and Rob Neyer), amongst others, rated Carlos Gomez as the best defensive OF in all of baseball, better than Ichiro, Hunter. You name him, and Gomez graded out better (Forget the Gold Gloves. Pure reputation too often). With a young pitching staff and a team that depends on strong defense and pitching to win close games, trading Gomez would not be foolish, it would be idiotic.
I’m all about better on-base, and in that regard, Span is superior. I’m also about the Twins hitting instructors teaching these kids plate discipline, not hacking. I should add that until last year, Span had below average plate discipline at best, in his SIXTH season including the minor leagues. I will not condone trading a ridiculously cheap and talented OF, period. Talk to me when Gomez is struggling at 25, 26 and costs $4-5 million a year.
thrylos and Walter -
You both make great points. I stand corrected.
As unpolished as Gomez is at the moment, I believe the Twins are better holding onto both he and Span for the near future.
Boras scares me quite a lot. And when that motivates the front office to trade a place — simply because of their agent — balance of power has gotten out of hand somewhere down the line. But Boras is a mega-shark-celebritiy and I can see why small market teams like the Twins would be quaking in their boots at having to negotiate with him.
Gomez has shown flashes of power and I think it will only get better. Definitely he’s a middle of the order hitter down the road, and I think just about the time he starts showing that off he’ll be about ready for free agency and price himself out of our range. We should wait to trade him until closer to then. He’s still of value to our team and we should get a larger return when he shows what a brilliant player he actually is.
Fingers crossed, Revere and/or Hicks will be about ready by the time this happens and will be able to sub nicely for the departing Gomez. Meanwhile, keep Gomez and the most expendable outfielder is still Cuddyer.
This may have been said already. But here’s the upside and down side of tradnig Gomez. First, upside: Span and Casilla in the #1 and #2 spot are fine with me. Actually, better for me. We can find a #9 hitter anytime. We shouldnt hold on to Gomez if are expectations are to keep him at #9. So trade him for something…anything. Down side: It means we basically gave Santana away
I agree with jama. Just about anybody can, and should, be traded if the return is good. For instance, I’d trade Gomez in a heart beat if he was part of a package that brough Jake Peavy (not trying to fuel a “Let’s go get Jake Peavy” movement, it’s just an example). Boras being his agent should have an impact on the decision, albeit not a significant one, because you know he won’t be a Twin six years from now. Boras won’t permit it. On the other hand, who on the 25 man roster is going to be a Twin six years from now? M&M and probably no one else. Trading Gomez does not indicate the club screwed up on the Santana trade if the return is good. It just means Span’s (and maybe Revere’s) development changes the picture a little bit.
The only reason I see to trade either one is the you have one of, if not the, lightest hitting OF in the Majors. Although there are some power-hitting SS, 2B & CF, you typically add power at the corner infield and corner outfield positions. If Span is only allowed to play RF, I don’t think his speed and fielding ability alone make up in the long run for his lack of power. Maybe if he remains the only legitimate lead-off option. Span should be playing CF on a team that needs a CF. For this, the Twins might be able to get something good for him. Even if it is a top prospect who might not be ready this year, I think the Twins should consider any serious offer for Span.
No way. The main reason being that Span and Gomez aren’t similar players. We already have a pretty good idea what Span can do. If he’s not already there, than he’s pretty near his ceiling. With Gomez, we have no idea where he’ll end up. Is it possible that he never learns how to recognize a pitch or consistently gets on base? Yes. But it’s also possible he turns into a superstar. He has the potential to be a middle of the order bat and he’s already one of the best defensive CF’s in the game. We could end up really regretting that trade. You don’t make a decision like that based on his agent either. It’s about the player. Besides, maybe an agent like Boras is what this team needs to get them out of their miserly ways. I’d rather trade Span, whose value is higher than it’s ever been for him. Ideally though, we trade Cuddyer. And I’d rather not trade Hicks or Revere either.
Thrylos, I want to put you on the spot!
If Gomez’ ceiling is Ricky Henderson and Span’s is Kenny Lofton, what is Delmon’s?
Kirby Puckett
The most logical answer here is to trade away Cuddyer. The Rockies have indicated interest in him. It is possible that a Garett Atkins could be had with a deal centered around Cuddyer. Too much is being made of this teams need for power. The game is changing, the steroid era is over. Having an abundance of speed (i.e. Gomez, Span, Young, Casilla, Punto)in the line-up is what allowed this team to excel and drive in a lot of runs. Stick with the speed and the kids and the Twins will stay ahead of the curve.
I think you wait on both of them. Cuddyer has the LEAST upside of any of our outfielders. A career year for Cuddy will be .285, 20 HR’s, 100 RBI, and you will not get that from him every year. If you have to trade Gomez because of the Boras connection, fine, but give him another year or two so he can establish more value and you can rake in some good prospects.
Trade our front office for a bag of bats and a Denny’s gift certificate. This team would’ve been a legit championship caliber team last year and for years to come with a happy Hunter and Santana, joined by Liriano, Span, Bartlett, etc.
Walter Johnson,
I think Gomez is unique b/c he has a chance to be CF with power. i havent looked it up but how many major league CF’s are batting in 3-5 spots? So if his power potential comes through, then we have a situation where our corner outfielder is a lead off type (Span) and our CF is a clean up type (Gomez). then basically we havent lost anything to our lineup. on the other hand we have a 4th outfielder who cant play CF, bat leadoff, doesnt have above ML corner OF power, and shouldnt be batting clean up (Cuddy). it breaks my heart cuz he’s a great guy, but we need to trade him while some team out there thinks he can repeat his career year. maybe he’ll prove us wrong and hit .280, 28HR, 100RBI? prob not.
But how were they supposed to get a happy Hunter and Santana? There’s just not enough resources for either one of them, let alone both. And we saw how Torii’s contract situation dragged the whole team down in 07, why go through it again with Johan?
As for Span playing LF and throwing left handed, it worked ok for Barry Bonds for 20+ years (although his late 30’s and 40’s were not pretty defensively, but he was a Gold Glover, for whatever that is worth).
I wouldn’t trade anyone. There will be plenty of injuries and needed time off to get 5 players in the lineup at 4 positions with great regularity for each. Why put yourself in a position where you need career years from guys every single season?
I agree it would be best to trade Cuddyer (I thought last winter that the new contract was a big mistake and stated so), but you have to weigh it against what you get in return. A 22 year-old speedster with big upside who is under club control for 5 more years will fetch a lot more than a 29 year-old OF who has shown his best (which is okay, but not elite) and makes what, $16 million over the next 2 years. You have to look at the entire equation; it’s not just who goes, but who comes in as a result. It’s not like a team will give you the same player for Cuddyer as they will for Gomez.
Walter Johnson,
Dont you think with Span you have a corner OF with lead-off profile and Gomez you have CF with cleanup profile (eventually). basically it’s a swap right? i mean it would mean we have one of each in the end, just switched defensive positions. i dont think we have two of a kind. if we ever lost span, we would still need a good lead off hitter that’s not named Gomez.
I think that you have to keep them both. I was at all 3 games of the white sox series at the end of the season. Gomez played good high intensity baseball. I dont think you would want anyone else running the bases with the game on the line. He is a scoring threat standing on first base. At least we have a good problem of having to many outfielders with good potential.
Get serious, trading Gomez (or Span for that matter) would be insane! we’re talking about the Twins here. It’s those type of players that make the Twins and keep them going. With that enthusiasm and dynamics, the kid is going to be great. As for Boras, they’ll have to cross that bridge when they come to it.
Trade neither, but start GoGo at AAA next year to learn some discipline. With injuries he’ll be up soon enough. I’m also not opposed to having Delmon, Gomez, Span, Cuddyer and Kubel all on the big club. That kind of depth is a good problem to have.
Side benefit of starting GoGo at AAA: possibly delay his free agency or arbitration years.
I totally agree that Span needs to be in LF when he and GoGo are both playing.
Trade neither, but start GoGo at AAA to learn some plate discipline. With injuries, he’ll probably be called up at some point.
The side benefit to this plan is possibly delaying his arbitration and free agency years.
I’m also fine with keeping all of GoGo, Span, Delmon, Cuddy and Kubel on the big league roster. Depth is good.
Finally, I totally agree that Span needs to play LF when he and GoGo are both in the lineup.
Trade no outfielder, but start GoGo at AAA to learn some plate discipline. With injuries, he’ll probably be called up at some point.
The side benefit to this plan is possibly delaying his arbitration and free agency years.
I’m also fine with keeping all of GoGo, Span, Delmon, Cuddy and Kubel on the big league roster. Depth is good.
Finally, I totally agree that Span needs to play LF when he and GoGo are both in the lineup.
danimals,
Good points. I had a lengthier response but I am having a hard time with this browser this morning.
I don’t believe that either should be traded. Gomez has the potential to be a multiple all-star and Span was a pleasent suprise in the second half of the season. I believe they will complement each other well in the coming seasons, both in hitting and out in the field
I think that anyone that has seen me on here knows how demonstrative I can be at times, and I went after Denard Span with the furry of a nasty divorce I was so disgusted with his lack of growth. Then he had eye surgery, became a different player, and now he’s number one on the list of OFs THAT YOU DON’T TRADE!
I hate being wrong, but I was You can’t trade Span.
I’ve refrained from commenting because Howard used my prior quote and it pretty clearly stated how I felt about the issue. Reading others’ comments however, has me feeling the need to respond to some.
People who say “keep Young, Span, Gomez and trade Cuddyer” are, in essence also saying, “it’s ok that you’ll only get marginal or poor value in return and we’re fine with that.” Cuddyer, due to injuries and contract will not bring the kind of SS/3B this team needs. If you trade him, it’s essentially a contract dump and the organization doesn’t need to do that.
People who say having Boras as his agent doesn’t matter are living in a dream world. It’s not that the Twins are “shaking” over having to negotiate with Boras, it’s that he simply does not allow his clients to sign multi-year contracts a year or two ahead of free agency… which is exactly how the Twins manage to keep the Santanas, Hunters, Mauers and Morneaus beyond their arbitration years… by buying out 2-3 years of their free agency ahead of time. That simply will not happen with a Boras client. Gomez will go through arbitration a year at a time and then go to the highest bidder at the first opportunity.
The closer you get to that inevitable eventuality, the less value the player has in trade
Regarding the Henderson/Lofton comparison… even if it’s true that those are their respective ceilings (and I disagree), the likelihood of Span hitting the Lofton level is far greater, imo, than Gomez hitting Henderson territory. If you think there’s a 70% chance Span becomes Lofton and even a 20% chance (which I think is generous) Gomez becomes Henderson, I keep Span.
As I’ve said before, I’m fine with the Twins keeping all of their OF and Kubel. It gives them flexibility and depth. But there are several teams out there looking for good young CFs and if I can get legitimate SS/3B with power and good hands on defensive for either Gomez or Span, I send Gomez without blinking.
I dont think they should get anyone or get rid of anyone, stick cudyer back at 3rd base, he may not be a huge powerhouse but he is better then any 3rd basemen we have had in the last 5 years and he has a better bat then our surrent SS, 2b combined so why get rid of him, span does belong in the outfield and his speed is great and gomez is young dont cut him off at the knees before he really grows, remember adam hauser for the gophers same story, had they sat him for the next 3 years they never would have won the NCAA
While I look at your point of Scott Boras being of the kind of EVIL that you rank sodomites, psychopaths, and George Bush with… the facts are that to win in baseball you have to have talent, and Boras represents talent… so we can keep running away from him because of what he did with Travis Lee, or with what he does with the insane contracts… or we can bite the bullet and buy a championship team.
It’s not that fun to be the cute little club that could all season only to be the prettiest Alter Boy in the Monistary every post season!
Boras’ clients make it an even fight.
Only one game needed for evidence in this case. Game three of White Sox Series. The best (most entertaining) game played at the dome of any sport in the last 10 years. Obviously keep them both and Delmon too, Cuddyer? Maybe.
“Gomez you have CF with cleanup profile (eventually”
Isn’t this where Scott Boras comes into play (eventually)? Even if Gomez does develop into that kind of player, will the Twins be able to keep him long enough to see this potential realized? I’m not saying they should trade him. But to use words like “insane” to describe a Gomez trade is a little extreme.
JimCrikket -
Giving Span a 70% chance of turning into Kenny Lofton is silly. Kenny Lofton is a borderline Hall of Famer, and we think that there is a 7 in 10 chance that Denard Span is going to be as well?
Have Twins fans already forgotten Lew Ford? Started off hotter than hot. And then continued to tail off, until he was finally released. Is Denard Span the next version of Lew Ford? I don’t think he is, but his minor league numbers sure don’t make me think he’s as good as he was this past season.
Both Span and Gomez are decent, young players. One seems to have the ability to get on base more than the other, while the other has more speed. Like you said Jim, you aren’t going to get anything for Cuddyer. So I throw both guys out there. See what you get for offers. I’d deal either one.
Gomez’ seemingly complete lack of plate discipline worries me. If we could get a JJ Hardy or Yunel Escobar, I’d be willing to trade him, however. He has too much potential to trade him for anything less.
Gomez will never be a good leadoff hitter - he just doen’t take enough pitches. Span, on the other hand, demonstrated a great eye at the plate and had a monstrous on-base percentage. He is, without a doubt, the only candidate on this roster to hit leadoff next year. Span has to start. If we keep Gomez, he has to start. If we keep Young, he has to start. If we keep Cuddyer, he has to start. One of the four probably has to go.
Someone else mentioned Alexi Casilla as a leadoff option - I like Alexi but he just doesn’t have a good enough OBP to lead off. I’d take him as a #2 or #9 in any lineup and I’m more than comfortable with him starting at 2B next year but I just can’t see him as a leadoff hitter.
I think you keep Span and Go-Go to go with Cuddyer, and try to unload Delmon. Delmon is a head case, he won’t listen to anyone instruct him on hitting except his Dad, and last time I looked, his Dad wasn’t on the Twins payroll. They have a hitting instructor that he basically ignores. When I watch Delmon, he looks like he isn’t very flexible or athletic when he runs - he runs like a ballplayer that has played 15 years on turf - very rigid. I think the guy is an injury waiting to happen. Combine the “thumbing his nose” to hitting instruction, his lack of power, which I don’t really think will ever come, and my guess that he will be an injury prone player, I say you move him and get what you can. Package him with some pitching to get a legit 3B or SS 2009.
And the poster SM who said we should trade Pridie for Garrett Atkins - hey why don’t we trade Pridie for A Rod. Get a clue, bud. No one is going to trade a minor leaguer with limited at-bats in the majors for an established veteran 3B-man.
Don’t Trade Either.
Delom Young LF
Carlos Gomez CF
Denard Span RF
Michael Cuddyer DH/4th Outfielder
Trade Jason Kubel and a pitching prospect and try to get something workable for the left side of the infield.
Only one game needed for evidence in this case. Game three of White
Sox Series. The best (most entertaining) game played at the dome of
any sport in the last 10 years. Obviously keep them both and Delmon
too. Cuddyer? Maybe.
Well, look at it this way: there are a lot of people who would think that Danny Valencia is untouchable. Danny is a year + older than Gomez. This season in AA @ 23 he hit .289/.334/.485, this season in the AFL where the competition is at AAA level, he is hitting .204/.250/.257 (as a 24 year old). Gomez as a 21 year old in AAA (international league, nothing crazy like pacific league) he hit .286/.363/.414 and last season he hit .258/.296/.360 in the majors as a 22 year old. If you compare his performance, level and age of performance with that of Valencia, there is no way one can say that Valencia is untouchable and Gomez is not.
As far as the Boras factor, who knows where Boras will be in 4-5 years when Gomez is about to become a free agent. Boras will be 60 then, I think that there are good chances he will retire before that.
Wow, there have been a lot of comments today. The stove is getting hot.
I say keep them both.
Valencia’s AAA/AFL numbers are completely irrelevant to this discussion.
To trade or not to trade. It depends on what you can get, of course, but most of the world seems to be higher on Gomez than I am. Keeping him would be OK with me because of his superior defense. But we also already have a quality alternative and I would really love to turn our outfield/pitching prospects into a quality 3B/SS. I could imagine Gomez generating lots of interest due to his defense and the perception of his high ceiling with the bat. Personally I have a lot of concern about his bat as I did not really see improvement over the course of the season (especially with strikeouts). So if I’m right, that other GMs would be willing to pay a price for him, I’m on board with a trade. Because of his popularity, though, it would have to be part of a deal that lands us a quality everyday player in order to manage the public disappointment.
The whole Boras agent thing to me is an issue, but a small one. After (if not during) arbitration years, all good players either leave or get expensive anyway no matter who the agent is. The real issue is what value we can get in return.
What a civil discussion we’re having! My criteria: keep the entertaining players. Who doesn’t like watching Gomez? Even his ridiculous AB’s are fun if you don’t get too emotionally invested. Span is aesthetically superb too. Keep the fast guys, and ditch the slow ones. Bye, Mr. Reyes.
How about we play Span and Gomez in the outfield and 5 infielders?
Then breed a lot of ground ball pitchers.
R/CF: Span
L/CF: Gomez
3rd: Blake/Buscher
SS: Punto/Everett
Behind 2nd: Everett/Punto
2nd: Casilla
1st: Morneau
Go-Go did make us forget about Torii Hunter pretty quickly. That’s a point in his favor.
Pete, I knew I’d get flak about those percentages I used… I shouldn’t have used any because doing so makes the argument about the “odds” rather than the point I was (poorly, apparently) trying to make. That is… in my opinion, Span may not have quite as high a ceiling as Gomez does, but the odds that he actually reaches that ceiling far exceed Gomez’s odds, if you’re projecting that ceiling as being Henderson-like. I also think Span is less likely to be an outright bust than Gomez, at this point. Gomez, in my mind, is nothing but a crapshoot at this point and as a Boras agent, even if he turns out to be the next Henderson, he won’t be performing at that level for the Twins for long.
Cuddyer can spell Morneau and Kubel, and rotate into the OF occasionally, and see action in 70 games. If any one of the five starters gets injured, what a relief to have another solid veteran on the roster when you’re a game out of first in September…
If the twins are exploring options for trading for an infielder or whatever, this is how I see it:
The pitching staff now is essentially set, and young, with a bunch of above average prospects in their system.
The twins are stocked at the OF positions with Cuddy, Kubel, Delmon, Span and Gomez, and their long list of OF draftees from recent years including Hicks and Revere.
Gomez and Delmon are 22 or 23 years old, most guys aren’t even in the majors by that age. Just think about that for a second…done? You CAN NOT trade guys like that, all that would do is potentially turn into a replay of David Ortiz and could haunt the twins forever.
Span, based off of last years miraculous turn around in production, is a better option right now than Gomez. I may even like his glove a little more, though Gomez does make some plays look easy that even Torii would only dream of catching up too.
I guess the point I’m trying to get at here is whether the Twins FO thinks the team overachieved last year or is ahead of their rebuilding curve and ready to contend now.
If they think they are ready to contend now, you absolutely try to move one of Span, Gomez, or Cuddyer and some of their pitching prospects to try and improve the infield with a Power bat at SS or 3B.
If they still want this team to grow and stick together, the only OF you trade is Cuddyer with those same pitching prospects as part of a deal.
And anyone who thinks the Twins should trade Liriano is dumb. If the twins didn’t plan on keeping him or were willing to consider moving him in the future after his injury and surgery, a certain other Cy Young Award winning pitcher would still be here. His nickname is ‘The Franchise’ for a reason. And if I remember correctly, he pitched pretty damn well after coming back up this year even though he didn’t have the unhittable stuff of before his injury. I don’t think there was a better pitcher in all of baseball after he was recalled, or you could count them on one hand. Where is the logic in trading that? Though our other young guys did look good for a lot of last season, did any of them besides Baker make you think they were a future 20 game winner? I don’t think they did and Liriano is still that post injury. End any discussion of this please.
If they want any value in return right now, Span would have to be one to go — and I don’t think the organization wants to get rid of him and risk Gomez being a big-time bust. Trading Gomez would be the epitome of selling low. Give him another year to develop and see if you can’t get those wheels on base a little more often. And remember that advanced defensive statistics suggest that Gomez was the best CF in the AL by a wide margin.
I’ll say this: Gomez, Span, and Casilla are a big reason the Twins finished 4th in BASEBALL in total runs last season while finishing 29th in HR’s and 20th in SLG. You put that speed in front of the couple of legitimate hitters on your team and other than the inexplicably high RISP they posted, the speed was the best weapon the Twins had last season. Don’t mess with that.
As to the Boras bit, I’ve been kind of waiting for the backlash. You’ve got a guy whose bread and butter is scoring astronomical contracts for established veterans in a baseball environment that seems to be headed in the direction of preserving its young talent. The Yankees and Red Sox have both shown a willingness to do that going back at least to the Santana trade last off season (it didn’t really work out for the Yankees with Kennedy et al - hence the push for CC and Burnett this year; seems to have worked out for the Red Sox). You’ve also got to consider the A-Rod debacle from last off season with A-Rod negotiating his own contract maybe to save himself some money but maybe also to move the negotiations along. All this in a poor economic culture with national sports media speculating that it might depress the big name free agent contracts and Selig at least expressing the expectation that Baseball will react to the economy accordingly… things don’t look good for Scotty B’s modus operandi. And if the market really is shifting towards placing a premium on younger talent, prospects will certainly be considering the way Boras handled Alvarez in Pittsburgh. He very nearly walked away with nothing and figured out real quick that isn’t the way to handle unproven major league talent. One injury while that guy was unsigned and he’d have been out millions of dollars.
As to how this relates to Gomez and the Twins, I’d just say that its at least possible that Boras effectiveness will be compromised enough and the big free agent contracts depressed enough by the time Gomez hits the market again that Boras might not be able to price out the small market teams anymore like he has been doing. At any rate, if you are going to trade Gomez (which I think is a mistake) at least do it for baseball reasons, not Boras reasons.
Keep them BOTH!!. I would look to move Cuddy if he had any value but he doesn’t with his injury history lately. Maybe we can package him up with something to get a decent 3B or SS. I can’t understand why the Twins aren’t being mentioned at all in FA talks. We have plenty of money if they can move Cuddy.
Three things the Twins should look at.
1) sign Casey Blake fill 3B void
2) need a right hander in the bullepen
3) see what Tex wants for M. Young, or Baltimore wants for Roberts.
None of these moves breaks the bank.
I say trade Mike Cuddyer and milk Carlos Gomez for the arbritration years. We could have Del Young in left, the aforementioned Gomez in center, and Denard Span in right. When we lose Gomez move Span to center and take whoever the up and coming outfielder in the minors at the time and put him in right.
So we’re talking about trading Gomez because he might be expensive in a few years? If he gets too expensive the Twins have plenty of time to trade him. And the Twins shouldn’t let Boras intimidate them anyway.
Why are we discussing trading anybody? The Twins were predicted to be fighting with KC for last place this past season. They finish one game from the playoffs. This was due, in part, to the development of their players (the starting pitchers, Span, Castilla, Kubel, Buscher). Both Young and Gomez are still developing. To give up on them after one year would be crazy. The Twins also have up and coming players that, given the opportunity, can play 3rd and SS. The Twins history of recent free agents signings is not good. Instead of trading players or signing any free agents, let the players they have develop further and let them surprise us again next year.
There’s no way the Twins should trade Gomez… I get a kick watching him talk to his Bat every time he’s up.
My question is why are we trading Span and Gomez…possibly the two biggest reason we were in the playoffs other than Mauer and Morneau. They cover the most ground in the league which turns many doubles into singles. Plus Gomez batted way over .300 in the last month with lots of runs, rbi’s, and sb’s. Why trade our strongsuit for when we can trade a guy who’s value is probably just as high in Cuddyer (as gomez) meaning we could probably get the same players for them.
DONT TRADE ANY OF:
Mauer, Morneau, Span, Gomez, Liriano, Slowey, Baker, Casilla
DONT TRADE UNLESS YOU GET AN AMAZING DEAL:
Delmon Young
TRADE IF YOU CAN GET HARDY/ESCOBAR (or maybe Atkins, but only pursue him after getting a SS: Blackburn, Perkins, etc.
TRADE IF AT ALL POSSIBLE (preferably for a position of need or something that clears up cap space so we can sign an Adam Dunn or Patt Burrel): Cuddyer and maybe Boof
Jim -
I know the point you were trying to make, and I guess I got caught up a little bit. Posters seem to think that they can count on Denard Span putting up a 125 OPS+ each year, and I just don’t see it. So all of this talk about ceilings makes me crazy. Denard Span has 347 at bats in his major league career and we think he is going to be Kenny Lofton?
And if that’s the case, let’s deal the next Kenny Lofton for the next Mike Schmidt or something. While organizational depth is a good thing, it’s a luxury that the Twins probably can’t afford. They have holes in the infield. They have holes in the bullpen. They have excess outfielders, and excess starting pitching. Seems logical to move outfielders and starting pitchers for infield and bullpen help. If you can move Span or Gomez and get a comparable player at a different position, it seems like it would benefit the squad.
Who said trading them is giving up on them? If you want to get something back, you need to give something up. Apparently the interwebs ate my first, quite long, response.
Young and Gomez did not help the Twins to any wins last year, at least if you believe in advanced stats. But, that’s not really the point. The point is, they aren’t going to win many championships with this offensive roster. M&M are near/at their primes. In 3-5 years when Gomez is good (if he ever is), they’ll be starting their decline probably.
The question is, do you strike while M&M are in their prime, or do you hope their prime is extended, or do you hope that Young can learn to hit the ball in the air and Gomez can go from one of the worst everyday hitters in all of MLB (for an OF) to something more, or what? That is the series of questions you need to consider.
The division is unlikely to be this bad again next year (especially if you believe the Twins can improve from within, as CLE will get healthy and they have higher ceiling guys coming - including one from the CC trade that is better than any that the Twins got, and KC is young, so they “have” to be better….).
They don’t look substantially better next year (other than Liriano replacing a bunch of Livan’s starts), while others they are competing with are working on being better (or have some youngs guys coming up that could be better).
is trading carl pohlad one of the options?
Trade Cuddyer to Colorado for Huston Street, they just lost Holliday and have a hole to fill offensively, and I don’t think that Street fits into their plans. This would essentially give us a closer in the 8th and a closer in the 9th.
No way can you trade Gomez, this guy has an unbelieveable spark i cant remember since puckett. He has a ways to go clearly with the bat. He is a better defensive guy that puckett or hunter was and Puck is still my all time favorite player! Cuddyer is the guy they need to trade! Delmon young I would think about possibly trading only because hes a horrible outfielder, and i dont know about everyone else, but at 22 years ago, he looks slow, and cant run very well. Gomez and span can run like the wind, so if we are going to have a SLOW guy, why not have a guy who hits home runs!!! Atkins is not a very good 3b either! hes not very good at defense and when he plays away from Coors, hes terrible! I still like Beltre for 1 year, and even blake could be a good stop gap assuming we actually have a good 3b coming up? what about mike lowell for 1-2 years? boston wants Texeira at 1st, they would then move youkilis to 3rd, which would open up lowell!
with that logic they might as well trade mauer he only has 2 yrs on his contract and he will want really big money.
I think the Twins need to look at trading Cuddyer if at all possible.
8 million and mediocrity, getting a bit older, and has shown a greater pension for breaking down over his career.
Denard Span could have been a fluke, but taking walks is never a fluke. I’ve never seen that as a one year wonder unlike Brady Anderson with 50 homers…
Delmon Young and Gomez are going to have another year to gain more value. Both players grow 10% from the season before and we can double what we get for them because it shows that the potential is real. Gomez is already a gold glove level fielder, and he has shown flashes of “IT” power… the kind of guy that you pay to see. No one pays to go to a game to see Michael Cuddyer…
Delmon Young has a great arm, he has more natural ability than Minnesota has seen since Puckett, and even though I think that Bill Smith made a mistake, trading Young now unless you get a steal of a deal is going to only compound that mistake and make it worse.
If a team has a need for a good young centerfielder and has the depth to give up a good young third baseman or short stop, why not pull the trigger on Gomez or Span? I think Garza is probably a better talent than Young, but the trade still made sense because of the Twins’ pitching depth and their need for an outfielder.
IMO Young is the most dispensible. By all means keep Gomez & Spann. Keep Cuddy for stability, don’t under estimate Kubel as he adds needed power to the lineup in the clutch. Spann could add 30 points to BA if Batting Coach could change his hitting stance as he dosen’t look bat ready to me, therefore hacks at the ball. I think Tolbert could be our SS of the future, excellant speed on basepath and a good stick with power. Don’t mess with the underated Casilla as he is terrific and still learning, add Gomez and Spann (if he adjusts his stance) and you know why we came within an eyelash of beating the SOX and winning the division. Look between the lines and you will see, with everything considered, Young could
go. Of course, can’t forget the M&M boys, as everything revolves around them
Span should have won the job out of spring, He out played both Gomez and Pridie.
No way is Gomez better at defense than Hunter or Puckett as of right now! Maybe down the line he will be because of his speed more than anything else.
Gomez is real wild when throwing the ball and sometimes he’s too fast for his own good which in turn makes him mis play the ball. Otherwise I think he has some huge upside so Twins shouldn’t trade Span or Gomez.
We need to remember that the team wins games because of it’s speed and pitching not the HR. If you get rid of all the speed to bring one bat in ,…it won’t make much difference in the now deemed “Non homer dome” Unless tehy give away mini 9v fans to the fans behind the plate.
As for 3b Blake is who I’d rather see the Twins get if they are going down the ever popular rent a 3b rout again.
Lets make him a shortstop, he is fast, has good range, and a good arm. With our past trade results we could only do worse than this.
What if Delmon had been hurt in May and Pridie had been called up and then put up the same numbers as Span and made the same impact as Span? Would you still want to keep Gomez, Span and Pridie? Do you really need all three even though (in my scenario) they are all great young outfielders? Or do you see if you can trade one of them to improve the team elsewhere?
I’ve been reading the potential trade proposals and for the most part, they’re laughable. Cuddyer for Huston Street? You must be assuming the general managers for other teams in MLB are idiots and fools. If I have Garrett Adkins and Bill Smith asks me what the price is, I say: Liriano, Delmon Young and Jose Mijares. Anything less and don’t even bother to call me back. Why do you think the Twins have such a hard time getting a deal done? And in case you folks missed it, my grandmother has a better arm than Revere, and by the time Hicks gets here, Mauer, Morneau, Liriano and Nathan will all be gone. Did you think he would start tomorrow? And I don’t know which left side of the infield prospects you think we have in the system, but I can shred them faster than you can list them. Tolbert and Hughes are OK hitters, but not the best fielders. They’re OK if you want to get by with that, but I don’t know who else you’re talking about. Valencia is a Matt Moses in sheeps clothing. Steven Singleton has made 11 errors in 23 games in the AFL so far. During the hot stove league we always put on our rose colored glasses. Time for a reality check.
Gomez isn’t going to cost the Twins alot of money for at least a couple of years.Why not see if he developes enough to EARN big money before shipping him off, because you are afraid he MIGHT eventually earn big money.His trade value would be much greater to the Twins when and if he learns how to hit a slider or at least lay off it!
The Span infatuation continues to amaze me.He is far from being a sure thing as far as being penciled in for a .300 plus BA and lead off hitter.He had a great season in ‘08,but he isn’t a lock by any stretch.If he backs up ‘08 with similar #’s in ‘09, then the debate over who to keep between he and Go-Go can be talked about.
Cuddyear has been hurt for basically a year and a half.He has been a model citizen and loyal to the organization.He deserves,IMO,the chance to re-establish himself.Which might also establish some trade value for him.
Young has tremendous upside offensively,but must improve his Numbers greatly in ‘09.The Twins need to trust their judgement of him and give him the chance.
Bottom line for me is that the Twins outfield is full of question marks,but the talent is there to field a good group.I like the idea of keeping all four to start the year and let the competition play itself out.Positional depth has never been a Twins strength.There is enough versatility among the four to make the OF and the team deeper and better.And collectively,they are still very cost effective.Always a Twins consideration.
The notion that speed in the form of Gomez, Span, Casilla, etc. accounted for the club’s improvemnt in runs scored in 2008 is not entirely on the mark. I’m sure it helped, but not as much as hitting .306 as a team w/ RISP. Maybe having speed on the bases helped that number to be as big as it was, but the Twins cannot count on hitting .306 in those situations again. That’s off the charts. The team needs to improve, and if trading an OF, including Gomez, helps them do that, then I’m all for it.
Excellent comments from Danimals and Brian A.
Personally, I fail to see why 4 starting outfielders is a problem and why one needs to be traded. It seemed to work out pretty well for the Angels last year. Even if they all stay healthy all year (and that is a big if), there would still be plenty of at bats for all 4.
Trading Gomez because he’s a Boras client and would get a huge contract 4 years from now? That is crazy talk. If a player puts up the numbers, it won’t matter who his agent is, he will be well compensated. Boras has just been more sleazy about it, for more years and has a much bigger client list, so his name tends to come up more often. He also tends to open all his negotiating in the press as well. These days, he is more of a perception and a reputation than a reality.
Both Gomez and Young showed a lot of growth last year and are poised for breakout years in 2009. Young had a tremendous 2nd half and Gomez shortened up his swing and really turned it on in the last 5 or 6 weeks. If you did trade either of these guys right now, you wouldn’t get anything near what they might be worth even a year from now. For Gomez, it’s just unfortunate that his growth spurt came too late in the season to have a real effect on his seasonal stats.
I’m also not sure why people keep wanting to compare him to Henderson. I see Gomez developing into more of a 3 hitter than lead off. One thing I’m sure about, he won’t be hitting 9th too much longer.
If I had to trade an outfielder, it would be between Span and Cuddy. Because of his injury plagued season last year and his contract, Cuddy has very little trade value right now. The team would either have to toss in a pitcher or get less in return than they have now. In other words, a Cuddy only trade right now is unlikely to net a player that will ever be as good as Cuddy is now. Why would anybody do a trade like that? It makes no sense.
Span had a tremendous season last year that far exceeded anything he’s ever done. His trade value would be very high right now - much higher than Cuddy’s. The question is whether those numbers are just a fluke, or did the eye surgery really have the impact is seems to have. His numbers certainly started to level off toward the end of the season, so a case could be made either way.
It’s a tough question, but it’s enough of a question to be worth considering possible trades. If trading Span over trading Cuddy means the team doesn’t also have to give up a starter to get a stud short stop or 3rd baseman, that might be the way to go.
Any trade has to be 100% what we get in return. A player’s agent or a perceived glut of starting outfielders are just not valid reasons for doing a trade. You will almost certainly wind up losing in the end.
More often than not, the best trades are the ones that don’t happen.
Guten abend:
What a distraction it is when work gets in the way of blogging.
Great blog today. Kudo’s to everyone. Lots of good thoughts. It shows the many opportunities/risks the Twins FO has right now.
Bottom line for Twinsville this Hot Stove League: They cannot stand pat. They cannot assume the circumstances of ‘08 will recur in ‘09. They cannot assume the SP will continue at the same level. They surely cannot assume they will score RISP to the extent they did. They cannot assume CWS will be as medoicre as they were.
IF….IF….IF the Twins actually want to contend in ‘09, they need to find ways to get better. Nobody, save for Mauer and Morneau, should be untouchable. It all depends on what value they get in return, and at what position.
FInally, as for Mr. Boras: He is a money sucking parasite. He is a leech. That being said, why worry about him when CG’s contract doesnt reach FA until ‘12 as I understand it. Dont trade Gomez because of Boras. Trade him if you have good value in return, and if you feel you are trading high. But that evaluation can only be made in the context of who would be returned in the trade.
The Boras “issue” isn’t an issue because of the amount Gomez could potentially get in FA, it is the fact that Gomez will not be a Twin 5 years from now because Boras clients go to FA and the Twins do not get into bidding wars. Boras usually succeeds in preventing his clients from allowing FA years to be bought off early. It’s just a fact of life. Again, I don’t think that makes Gomez a “must trade,” but it should factor into the club’s thinking at some point. I don’t think anyone is adovcating trading Gomez just to avoid losing him 5 years from now.
an awful lot of great posting done here today, and i am still out to lunch on whether i would like to see gomez go, but if someone like hardy is available in the deal, then its almost a no brainer..get him gone…but i dont know that anyone has thought of one thing and maybe its not important, but what happens to alexi casilla….he came from nowhere last year to have a great year and the relationship he has with gomez is one of those special deals….i dont know them personally but i do know they are awfully close and if gomez were to go, how would alexi respond to his blood brother being gone…like i say maybe not important, but i think it maybe is more important than alot of people would like to admit….called chemistry…interested in your response
I wish we could be talking about trading Cuddyer, but unless they eat about 1/2 of the contract they were dumb enough to give him, that’s not going to be possible. Why hasn’t anyone mentioned moving Span over to left and Young back to right, being that Young struggled so much in left last year?
The Twins are too quiet - seems every team BUT the Twins is lighting up the mlb trade rumors website.
Step 1 - Sign Blake (he’s reasonble, a solid veteran and would be a good short-term fit). Anyone who thinks he’s not much of an upgrade over harris/buscher is insane - that combo was mostly harris anyways (cannot stand buscher - guy is huge but rarely hits the dang ball out of the infield) - did that combo hit 20 HR’s and drive in 80+ runs last year? heck no
Step 2 - trades
These should go for infield help first (not pitching). Seriously, out of Roberts, Beltre, Atkins, Hardy, Escobar, M. Young, Cano, and others there has to be at least one willing and reasonble GM out of them to trade to us. Any one of those guys would be an immediate upgrade (as long as we aren’t giving up anything to major for him).
We have the pitching to get something done - many of these teams need it and should be willing to listen; there’s only a couple of other teams in the league with the level of pitching prospects that we have.
The starting five should not be touched. For the fiftieth time that I’ve said this (ill go another fifty if that is what it takes), do NOT trade Blackburn. He was so absurdly reliable last year, pitched the most innings, and was one of the few players on the team to actually show up against the white sux in the 1 game playoff. He can only improve - I do not see a drop off in his near future. Perkins is the only guy I am willing to give up, but it better be something good.
This team also needs to realize that Casilla just might not be the same guy he was before his injury; when he came back he wasn’t the same spark he was when he was called up earlier in the year. He was still good, hit the occasional homer and started a few rallies, but he slowed down quite a bit. I dont know what he did, but friggen give Harris a shot to start at SS or at least be higher on the food chain than Punto. I don’t care if Punto’s average was (slightly) higher and he has a rock solid glove; he had a piss poor average with RISP (Harris was clutch) and rarely got past 1B on his own (Harris was a double machine). We had a really good stretch with him starting at SS, then Gardy benched him and we started losing with good ol ’sparky’ starting.
This team has to evolve. they can’t keep being the ‘little engine that could’ every friggen season. Mr. Smith needs to get his butt in gear and solidify the infield and keep the nucleus intact. If he can do that, watch the team get 1 year older/wiser and keep pace if not surpass the rest of the Central
Know front office worth it,s salt, should ever worrie about dealing with an agent, over the parrles of running a baseball team,I would hope that the team would a little smarter than that. plus I think that the fans are the one,s that get their shorts in a bundle ,cuz, the sports wirters have to have good fodder for us to talk about, in the winter,,,
I agree with Tom K’s comment earlier…
TRADE KUBEL WHILE HIS VALUE IS UP.
We already have left-handed power (obviously)
Throw in a young starter to the package like Perkins or Blackburn and bring in a righty with power like:
ATKINS
BELTRE
HARDY
You do NOT want to break up this OF. If any are struggling you can always put Cuddy out there and have Redmond DH.
This is the ultimate solution.
The Twins don’t light up the MLBtraderumors site, generally, because they do not blab to the media about what they’re working on. The only reason they were mentioned so often last season was that the teams they were talking to about Santana were major markets (lots of competing media) with owners/GMs that couldnt resist talking to the press (how’s it feel to have your brother designated to take over the team instead of you, Hank?).
The Twins simply are much better at keeping their activities to themselves than other teams are.
Ryno, you need to read closer. The idea of swapping positions for Young and Span gets mentioned frequently. Just today, for example, see “Bruce” at 10:29 and a few comments after his posting for a discussion.
i’ll try again….The Twins will dominate the Central Division in 2009 and beyond for a decade, due to a rotation of Pitching Pups that will remind us of the Atlanta Braves of the 90’s. Delmon will be awesome, GoGo will be GoGo, Span will be super, M and M as magnifigo as always, Casilla an AllStar, 3rd and short will become an above average hot side, Cuddy and Kubel will be the best DH/PH combo in the entire AL. And Gardy will finally be Manager of the Year.
twah,
“Steven Singleton has made 11 errors in 23 games in the AFL so far.”
Singleton is not playing in the AFL.
The Twins AFL players are Tolleson, Martin, Valencia, Lahey, Delaney, Manship and Slama.
Hey, rayreiner!
You write, “Does Gomez have more upside? Maybe. But his at-bats are more often than not brutal. He really reminds me more of an old Denny Hocking than a young Torii Hunter when it comes to offense.”
Obviously, you are unaware of how bad Hunter was in his early years.
Hocking? C’mon, Hocking was crap and Torii did not hit well until his late 20’s. If anybody should go, it’s the vastly over-rated Cuddyer!
JJ Hardy is a fine player, an obvious upgrade in power, but he’d be a downgrade defensively, stole 2 bases last year, drove in only 74 runs despite his 24 dingers, and tends to run very streaky, and is not really known for his tremendous plate discipline (98k/52bb). He obviously has room for improvement, but I wouldn’t expect his at bats to be much improved from Gomez’ although production would be sure to be higher.
I agree with moving Span to left, Young to right, and Cuddeyer to third if we can’t upgrade by moving a pitcher, preferrably Perkins. Perkins has promise and poise, but throws one pitch. He’s better suited for the pen.
Also, with Neshek out, I would think the Twins might show some interest in the recently spurned Trevor Hoffman. Why no discussion of that?
Left field is bigger than right, move Span to left. Keep GoGo in center. Move Young to right field as suggested previously. Start hitting grounders to Cuddy NOW & move him to 3rd. & I don’t care how he struggled there before. He was drafted as a SS. He is more mature & more comfortable that he now belongs in the majors, he should be able to adjust. Outfield defense should be improved. 3rd base should at least be a “push”. Trade Harris or Buscher & some young pitching for a SS such as JJ Hardy. Chances are, Span OR GoGo should develop into a solid player. We will be lucky if they both do. If they both fail, we will still have Kubel & Cuddy to fall back on. The Twins have an excess of OF & young pitching, don’t trade it all away for the left side of the infield. We also have some young 3b close to the majors. SS not so much.
TRADE CUDDYER!!! Nice guy, great in the clubhouse but other than his arm he is just an average ball player. 2007 was his career year. In 3 years, Gomez, Young and Span could be the starting outfield for the All Star game. If they played in New York or Boston, it would be a lock! All have HUGE upside. Cuddyer should have some decent value on the market.
For all the Gomez bashers, remember Hunter his first three, four years. Throw him a high fastball and it was strike three, every time.
Gomez has too much upside at this point to consider trading him. Aside from his inaccurate arm, he’s probably the best defensive centerfielder in the major leagues and Span is virtually his equal aside from average arm strength which he makes up for with a quick release. Both cover extreme amounts of ground which says they are a great benefit to our pitchers. In fact, Span should be moved to left field which is a much bigger space than right in the metrodome and with Young’s arm, he belongs in right field. Cuddyer is without a place and unless we get a good right handed power hitter to play 3rd base, that’s where Cuddyer belongs next year.
Now you throw Hunter a slider out of the zone and its strike 3 every time. That’s progress, I guess.
Hoffman is going to get a job as a closer somewhere (Detroit perhaps). He won’t sign to be a set up man and I’m not sure he has enough left in his arm to do it well anyway. I hope he does sign with an AL Central competitor.
should “Howard” be fired from blogging? all signs point to yes.
JimCrikket,
Hoffman projects to be a closer in the AL Central (either Detroit or Cleveland)… a nice warm thought.
Exactly. Wouldn’t hurt my feelings in the least.
Geez, Delmon for Garza and Gomez for Santna and we might trade them both? How depressing =\
Minnesota Twins starting 2009 lineup:
LF = Span
2B = Casilla
C = Mauer
1B = Mourneau
DH = Young
RF = Kubel
3B = Cuddeyer
ss = Harris
CF = Gomez
The Twins are not going to trade a young guy like Gomez that has upside. Not until he is up for a new contract anyways!
Time is on our side with both Span and Gomez. Depth is a good thing –not a problem.
This is pointless. No, the Twins should NOT trade either Denard Span or Carlos Gomez. Nobody can deny Gomez’ inability to lay off sliders, but keep in mind how young the guy is. Remember when Justin Morneau was a rookie and couldn’t hit a curveball to save his life? You have to give these guys a couple seasons to develop. If the Twins trade anyone it should be Michael Cuddyer or Jason Kubel. Both of these guys have had multiple seasons to establish their abilities and what you’ve seen from them is what you’re going to get in the future.
Why would we trade the best defensive CF in MLB??? He bats 9th and has ridiculous potential. All the points brought up were good for starting a conversation, but that’s it. If Gomez bats 9th the rest of his career and plays CF like he did this past year; there is zero reason to trade him while we still control his rights. All this talk of trading one of our OF’s is ludicrous. There is nothing wrong with having one of the deepest benches is MLB. Billy keep the kids and add to the pen, and we have AL central dynasty potential. GO TWINS!!!
Keeping Young, Cuddyer, Gomez AND Span on the team all next season is the right move.
There are enough AB’s to go around, especially if the injury bug hits.
Moreover, having Casilla, Gomez and Span in the same lineup is exciting; look at how many runs the Twins scored last year.
If they add some HR’s (can Delmon step it up in this area?!!), it’ll be quite a lineup.
I had forgotten about Kubel in this mix, meaning there are five outfielders.
Hmmm. . .
I’d say you still keep all five, rotating Young, Kubel and Cuddyer through the DH spot.
Trade them both and throw in Thrylos98!
I posted those numbers before, but here they are for your viewing pleasure:
Cuddyer (2005) 3B .942 FP .780 ZR
Buscher (2008) 3B .938 FP .774 ZR
(2007) 3B .923 FP .600 ZR
Casey Blake (2008) .957 FP .768 ZR
and yes Cuddy whined when played third and Gardy patted him in the back, but methinks worse comes to worse those millions should make him be a big boy about it…
Trade? Trade for who?
Just sign Blake and say a prayer. We’ve got the money.
Let the four compete for the three outfield positions. Competition is good. One of them will likely flunk out by early next year. But its now hard to now predict who it will be.
The three OFers who remain in 2009 might then actually comprise the best OF in the AL, if presented with a little competition.
The Twins will be in their shiny new stadium by the time Gomez (and Span for the matter) are up for arbitration.
The Twins should be able to dish out some more money by then. Key word there is “should”.
If they don’t, I’ll be mighty upset at Polad.
That notion is just purely nutty.
For anyone to say the Twins are a better team with Span in center than Gomez is just plain insane.
GOmez is the best overall talent on the team. He even surpasses the M & M boys in that regard.
No other player changes the complexion of a game in such a posititive manner the way he does.
His plate discipline will improve as he develops through the Twins system.
This is the first time Span has played well for this organization. To rate him even close to the same class as Gomez defies logic.
With Young,Gomez, and Span, we have an outfield to grow with.
Cuddyer can bring us needed bullpen depth or a corner infielder.
Gomez is the man.
We can’t trade any of the four outfielders because their trade value can’t be accurately determined at this time.If we can get Blake as a free-agent,then shortstop(Esobar looks great)and a set up man should be the targets in the trade market.Determine which two(Revere,Hicks or Morales)can be used along with the abundance of pitching prospects in the system to secure a shortstop and a set up man.Remember guys and gals,Go-Go was obtained for a Rule5 guy(Santana)
klide -
At least Span has played well for this organization. Gomez was BRUTAL with the stick last year. I’d give up the small downgrade in defense from Gomez to Span for the massive upgrade at the plate.
After reading all the comments in this blog I am honestly surprised at how down some people are on Carlos Gomez and Delmon Young. Carols Gomez made huge strides during the year and was a big part of our winning streak at the end of the year.
Both are very young and VERY talented. They will be Twins for a long time and we will all get to enjoy watching them mature into great ballplayers. The only way they get traded is if we get the same time of young ability back.
with that logic they should trade mauer first because he is only 2 yrs from free agency (and will want big $$$) these other guys are 4-5 yrs away.
“The only way they get traded is if we get the same time of young ability back.”
I hope no one was suggesting otherwise. Lets not forget that this is how we got Delmon Young in the first place: a trade for a young talent. The Twins don’t have any major infield talent in the minors, so if they want to improve at 3b and ss they will either have to sign FAs or trade some of their young players.
I forgot about the Alexi Casilla and Carlos Gomez “best friends phenomenon.” Maybe Delmon Young needs a friend on the team to show a spark of personality.
It seems to me that’s the crucial thing Young is missing, and a big reason why a bunch of Twins fans aren’t too excited about his performance. If he had fire and personality, we would be able to overlook the lack of power (or at least find ways to excuse it) and praise his high batting average. As it is, Young simply hasn’t inspired people to say, “hey, I like that guy. Glad he’s on the team.”
No matter who your agent is, as soon as arbitration is over, good players leave the Twins. That’s how they operate. (replacing them with good young players.)
Keep both guys.
Honestly, I don’t know why people aren’t mentioning this, but I say move Cuddy back to 3B. We’re doing all this FA and trade talk about that position when we have a guy who came up to the league through that position.
Cuddyer has a great arm, one of the best in the league at throwing out guys at 3B, but Span is faster, has a great arm, and can cover more ground. The way the twins play we need to have speed in the outfield. Cuddyer to 3rd is such an obvious solution it boggles my mind that people are brining it up.
From Keith Law’s top 50 free agents:
Casey Blake, #31
“Blake, a great free-agent pickup by Cleveland in the 2002-03 offseason, signed as a minor league free agent and began a six-year run as a starting third baseman for the Indians and briefly for the Dodgers. Unfortunately for Blake, the late start to his major league career (he was 29 when he signed with Cleveland) means he’s an old free agent, 35 already and into his decline phase.
Blake does nothing particularly well at the plate, but isn’t awful in any area: He’ll hit for some average but misses above-average pitches pretty regularly, he draws a few walks but not enough to call him “patient,” he can hit a mistake out of the park but has fringe-average power at best. On defense, he’s well below average, fine on balls hit right to him but without range. As a bat off the bench, he’d be very useful, but he’s not suitable for a starting third-base job unless a club needs a one-year placeholder.”
Blake isn’t the answer. Get a younger guy and get a guy who can play shortstop…… (JJ Hardy???????)
Justin
I’ve read other FA lists that rank Blake higher than Law does. Depending on the dollars involved, I’d be fine with a 2+1 offer to Blake. I’d rather the Twins trade for a 3b, but it does look like the 3b that can be had via trade are overpriced. I agree that Balke isn’t the answer, but he may be the best the team can do right now.
I would not trade Gomez now. If the Twins must get rid of him eventually, then they should wait to trade him until he is nearing free agency. By then, hopefully, he will have had a couple of good years that will increase his trade value. Also, that would allow time for prospect Ben Revere to develop to take Gomez’s place.
All signs point to Michael Cuddyer as the expendable outfielder. He is the oldest of the group, thus he has no potential to develop into a star, unlike Gomez, Span and Young. He has only had one good season (2006), and from my perspective, he has been a perennial disappointment. True, Cuddyer would bring in the least in return in a trade, but I think that there is probably a team out there somewhere who would part with a relief pitcher to get Cuddyer.
NEVER TRADE CARLOS GOMEZ!…. he is a spark plug … great enthusiasm … a fan favorite … he is the main reason i was so enthused about the twins last season … the kid is fun to watch … don’t replace him with someone who can’t bring the same energy to the team … it would kill the excitement … he could be a gold glove center fielder next year, and as “bad” as he was at the plate, he batted .258!!!!!!!!!!! he should be the everyday center fielder and 9 hitter next year
I don’t understand why people are down on Kubel, and high on Young. Look at the numbers, and explain it to me. I’m trying to learn here.
I’m sick of seeing him and his “energy” strike out 3 times a game and fail to hit the cutoff man.
Saam, as far as I know, they are trading for Blake as a 3b. I think the Buscher/Harris combo is workable but the Punto/Everett combo at SS isn’t. I will say though, Blake would be the best free agent signing the Twins have had this decade… but they could do better.
I think trading Gomez will come back to haunt the Twins as much as letting Big Pappy David Ortiz go in free agency. Carlos Gomez is a far better player than Delmon Young is and has far more potential to energize the offense than Mr Young can do. It got to the point during this past season that watching Mr. Meticulous Young get up to the plate that I almost felt like taking a nap with his at plate presence, let alone his lumbering shuffle when he is heading out to field a ball. Yes I am a Carlos Gomez fan, I am also a Denard Span too, but in Spans case, this is the first season he has been up where he has demonstrated why he was being groomed to take Torii’s place. My challenge to him is, lets see you do it for an entire season. Carlos Gomez came to the Twins as advertised, spirited, talented, fast and RAW, lets have the Twins coaching staff have more time with him to help hone his talents like many players we have had in the past. I believe Gomez is arguably one of the most talented players the Twins have ever had in their system, to talk about trading him is really short sighted. The Twins said that once they were able to get into a new stadium, they would have the added revenues to help keep some of the higher priced talent they have had to let go in the past. Lets see them put their “money” where their mouth is and keep that promise. I believe Gomez will eventually be as important to the Twins as Mauer and Morneau and Cuddyer are.
I say that you trade either Young or Cuddyer. I dont see Young getting a whole lot better and a guy with Cuddy’s build that only hits 12-15 hrs every year? When you have people like Gomez, Span, Cassila that can score runs like these guys can you should trade Young or Cuddy for a 3b or ss. Just think what a guy that has power like a Garret Adkins or JJ Hardy could do hitting behind 4 .300 hitters Span, Cassila, Mauer, Morneau. Plus you still have Kubel who has shown what he can do in the DH spot and is a decent fielder if someone needs a day off.
Trade Delmon. Please!!!
The answer is not as simple as to who are the best three in the outfield and who could we get to replace them. By trading Carlos Gomez and or Delmon Young the “jewels” of last off seasons trades the organization would basically be saying “we lost” and we’re not going to take the time to develop these young talents. If you don’t know already front office staff have much bigger ego’s than that. Baseball is an individual sport imbedded into a team atmosphere. Take one player out and another steps in and CAN make an impact (Span ‘08 Tyner ‘06 etc.). It shouldn’t pain Twins fans that we can not go after top level free agents. The game of Baseball has facinated us over the years with the quick fix homerun ball. But take the Twins vs. the White Sox this year, opposite ends of the spectrum as far as home run producing however the Twins over the course of the year had exceedingly more runs total, isn’t that what you want. When the Twins slump and don’t hit it hurts. But saying that the game plan doesn’t work would be lying. My point to all of this? Keep Gomez. The kid has only been playing baseball since he was 14 yrs. old. Teach him to hit a major league off-speed pitch then we can have this discussion. If he and Scott Boras feel that down the road that they are worth more than the Twins can pay him. Then I guess he just isn’t “one of us”.
I would keep Span no matter what he’s a left handed leadoff hitter and find a place to play him in the field. Gomez is a unique talent, his speed is almost cartoon like, he’s so fast. I say the team gives him two more years, one in the dome and one in the new stadium. If he’s not hitting .275, soring 90+ runs and sealing 50 bases maybe he never will.
I love how people keep saying 3B is not as much a priority as SS is. You people forget SS is Harris’ natural position and this team WON with him there.
Let’s look at the numbers of the ‘platoon’ of Harris and Buscher at 3rd. Now first of all it is unfair because there were quite a few instances of them both being in the game at the same time. Total they had nearly 700 Abs; Buscher batted .294 with 218 Abs getting 4 HRs and 47 RBI’s much of it from June - August (he didn’t exist in September, more on that later). Harris in 434 Abs had 7 HRs, 49 RBIs, a bajillion 2Bs and played ALL OVER the infield. Keep in mind that Buscher had favorable matchups most of the time (rarely faced a lefty) and he never played away from 3B. Fielding was atrocious for Buscher (.938) with little range, whereas Harris was serviceable (.971). Harris was obviously more productive as a SS, but he actually showed up in september in the limited duty he received - .324 with a HR and a few RBIs
Blake batted .271, 20 HRs, over 80 RBIs and had ~ .960 fielding. He’s a veteran, 3B is his natural position and has more power than the other 2 guys combined. He’d cost about 5-6 Mill over 2-3 years.
Where am I going with this? Stop comparing ONE guy with 2 fill-ins. I’ll say it again - Buscher does absolute crap with the ball (at least Harris drives it in the gap once in awhile), has low stats with RISP and has a horrible glove. Sure he batted .300 but I’ll take a guy who batted 25 points less who can drive the produces runs, not just a baserunner. Harris is solid but is out of position (I demand he starts at SS next year if we don’t get one through trade/FA).
Sign him - we have the money and he’ll help for 2 years; that way we don’t trade prospects for a fill-in guy like Beltre or Atkins (whose asking prices are atrocious) and the lineup becomes instantly better.
Guys, This was excellent hot stove talk. I didn’t start reading the thread until Sat. morning and except for BC Beneke bashing George Bush on a sports blog (what else is new?) it was great discussion. What I take from everyone’s comments is that except for the M & M boys nobody is untouchable. The big question is “what do we get for each player discussed?” I’m against trading Gomez. Too much potential. I’m against trading Delmon, same reason even though he plays LF like a future DH. Maybe shifting him back to RF and putting Span in LF would help. If I dangle a young pitcher in our current rotation it would be Perkins. I like a staff of Liriano, Baker, Slowey and Blackburn. We could always offer a minor league pitcher. I’m intrugued with the idea of Brave’s SS Escobar. Would they take Perkins and Kubel/Cuddy? If you sign Blake and acquire Escobar, Harris is expendable, and he’s a player with value. As someone pointed out earlier, it’s hard to speculate on what the Twins are talking about with other teams becasue they do such a good job of keeping a lid on things. I think with the level of chatter Blake is getting he will be the first domino to fall.
i think you should let the Twins do the thinking.
You are all dreaming. You forget who our GM is. Wild Bill Smith, the most ineot GM in the majors. The man who makes Kevin McHale look like a genius. The dope who brought us Craig Monroe, Eddie Guardado, Livan Hernandez, Mike Lamb, Adam Everett, Brendan Harris, et al and gave up Johann (we would have won the division and received 2 first round picks in the MLB Draft much better than Go-Go and 2 soso minor league pitchers), Garza (MVP of he ALCS and Bartlett (Tampa Bay MVP).
Smith is an absolute dolt and is the reason the Twns will never reach the World Series during his term in office.
@ Bob
Terry Ryan makes most of those moves in a heartbeat
Craig Monroe - single-handedly won us a few games, serviceable power from right side, but the team was loaded at OF already, made him expendable with Ruiz emergence
Eddie - guy was a desperate move, I get that, but we essentially gave up a lower tier prospect (won’t see majors most likely) and who knew mijares would be as good as he was?
Livan - was stable for awhile, helped the rotation mature; was worth the few mill we paid him
Mike Lamb - who knew he would be crap? everyone here thought he’d at least produce similar numbers
Adam Everett - same as Lamb only I agree because of the guy’s injury history; we should not have signed him (Harris, Punto and Tolbert were better)
Harris - get off Harris, I like him; solid bat (more production than ‘mvp’ barlett), serviceable glove but was forced out of position because of Gardy’s love for Punto
Santana - yes lets win the division, get our butts kicked by crazy Tampa Bay, then lose him for a couple of first rounders that who knows what would happen with instead of getting 2 guys we now have on the Major League roster (GoGo and Humber) that have potential to be amazing in CF/a good 4 or 5 rotation starter, not to mention a guy with a rocket arm whose coming along (sort of) and a serviceable AAA guy that can still mature and possibly make it to the Bigs one day
Yes, that Bill Smith makes McHale (whose run the effing team into the ground) really smart. Hindsight is 20/20, remember that.
Interesting conversation.
I couldn’t help but chuckle, after I came to from passing out when I fell over laughing so hard from laughter.
It appears some/many think both Gomez and Young are busts already. Since both are 23 or younger that astonishes me. Alot of folks on these blogs complain that the Twins only sign OLD reclamation projects. So it seems than youth is no good, nor is maturity.
For all the Young haters on here, as I have posted on these blogs before, If you take the stats of both Young & Mauer for their 1st 3 ML seasons (2 full seasons and a small piece of the 1st) ALL of their stats with 2 exceptions are almost identical. The exception is the BB/K ratio. Granted that is important and I would hope/expect Young to get a bit better in that area, yet there are many posters complain about Mauer’s discipline. Go figure.
I love Gomez, and my only complaint with him is that he would take a deep breath once and a while. Hopefully that will come as he matures.
The seeming new love of everyones life, Span, was almost universally considered a bust less than 10 months ago. Is he the real deal or is he the 2nd coming of Lew Ford? I have no clue.
Casilla, was a spark for awhile, then after the injury was a lower standard. Was that only beause of the injury?
I remember back to 2006 when it seemed everyone had a career year, most regressed in 2007. I would hope Mauer & Morneau are pretty much more consistant now. For ALL the young pups in the field, AND the young pitching staff, I expect regression or consolidation more than continued improvement in 2009.
I’d keep most of what we’ve got, but I’m not sure what we really have. Also, Bill Smith and crowd have an idea of how to proceed. Last years choices worked out pretty well on balance.
Regards,
ps: to those who think keeping Hunter and Santana whould have equaled playoffs, I disagree. What would have been different from 2007? Hunter may have been happier, yet Santana would have sulked ALL year,like he did after the Castillo trade, IMHO.
Gomez is a key piece to the Twins future. His great speed, potential Gold Glove defense and good character fits this team. The bat skills will come with more AB’s, the guy hit for the cycle in his first full year and bothers the heck out of every pitcher he faces, gotta keep GoGo. As much as i hate to say it, Cuddy is the odd man out(in my opinion). Unless he can move to third and “magically” get better defense there, i say trade him and his contract for a third basemen that can or hopefully will hit for power. Gomez, Span and Young are the future in the outfield. Also, they CANNOT TRADE AWAY one of the starting pitchers. See “Garza” for example. If we can be a great team without Santana and Hunter, we will be just fine losing Cuddy. If there is some way to fix the third base issue and keep Cuddy and keep Span in the lineup…do it.
Admit your mistake, cut your losses and trade Young while he still as value. He’s immature, won’t listen to coaching; let him spend the next five years on someone else’s team before the lightbulb finally goes off and he finally thinks “hmm, maybe I should listen to my coaches.” He actually gained weight last year, you know how hard that is to do DURING the baseball season. Package him with a pitcher and finally plug the 3rd base hole (and no, Casey Blake isn’t plugging the hole)
I like the chemistry of this group. I wouldn’t make changes unless I received an offer I couldn’t refuse.
I say that we trade Delmon Young, he is young, has value, has horrible defense, and doesn’t back up Morneau like Cuddy does. Cuddy protects the guys hitting in front of them. Delmon wasn’t exactly a major threat in my eyes, if he hit over 20 hrs then maybe. Kubel is finally healthy and put up solid numbers, I like the left handed power hitting 6th or 7th. Cuddyer was hurt and has a decent contract, let him earn it instead of us dumping it. Signing Blake is a good idea in my mind, we don’t trade anyone and we solve the issue for 2-3 years. Harris did very well with limited at bats and produced many doubles. Tolbert is the SS of the future in 2 years. Punto is a great role model, but not an every day player. Not sure what to do here except have Buscher play LEFT BENCH or not even on the team. Casilla, Punto, Harris, Tolbert can handle 2B and SS/3B, just sign a proven vet for SS or 3B, I believe that Blake would be ideal.
KBB - I like your post but a couple of issues
one is that Young is a good hitter (batted .300 and had a few jacks and RBI’s) and he can only get better. In fact, all his offensive numbers improved saved HR’s and RBI’s (and they were only a bit of a dropoff from the previous year and Morneau took away quite a bit of his potential RBI’s anyway). Sure, he’s gotta work on not swingining at the first pitch so much, but on the flip side Cuddy always seems to strike out on the slider low and away (pretty easy to scout IMHO).
Another is yes, I like Tolbert and Casilla and *cringe* Punto, and I have been touting Blake for awhile, but we need more offense. I think we should be open to ANY player available for the right price who can drive the ball, with a decent average/OBP and hopefully bats righty. I like Hardy but he might be too expensive; same with Beltre - their GM is a jerk (guy wanted one of our STARTERS for Washburn? wth?).
Thats all for now.
the mariners’ GM last summer (interim GM Pelekoudas) is no more… They got a new manager last week, I hope we see movement on Beltre soon.
If we trade anyone it has to be Cuddy. I would hate to see him leave but he has to go unless if he moves to third base again. If they dont want him at third where can we put him. Span did well replacing Cuddy last year and they should keep D and Gomez they have so much potential. We can’t afford one of them just sitting on the bench. I think we should trade Cuddy in a package deal with Seattle for Beltre and one of their top pitchin prospects.
I like the idea of trading Kubel and a pitcher for an infielder. Move Delmon Young to DH, where he can’t embarrass himself or the organization with his Manny-esque fielding. Put Cuddy back in right and Span in left and you have an amazing defensive outfield. Your base running also improves, and really, Cuddy is the exact same type of hitter as Kubel, just from the other side.
Scott Boras is a name that chills fans throughout baseball, especially in areas not named Boston, NY, or LA. Gomez is too raw to trade and get good value now and as other trades have proven, you can wait closer to the deadline. I’ve stated all year long that “Delmon Young is going to be all right” and no matter what his role is, I don’t think they are going to move him either. If the Twins did nothing with the OF, 4 players playing 162 gane seasib equals 121.5 games each and that assumes no injuries to anybody for a whole year. Unless the mother of all trades shows up at the doorsteps of the Twinkies… I’d leave the OF alone and maneuver the other parts to fill the holes.
Keep them all. You basically will have five players for four spots (With the DH). 3 righthanders (Cuddy, Gomez, Young) and 2 left (Span, Kubel). Gives Gardy the opportunity to set up best options for each game, plus you have some punch off the bench. Cuddy can also play first if Morneau needs a break. This would also keep us solid if and/or when an injury happens.
3rd base and 8th inning help is much more important concern than this one.
Keep all of them. 4 OF and a DH is NOT a problem. That’s 5 guys for 4 positions. Hardly a “log jam.” Besides, it creates a healthy competition for playing time. This is an ideal situation for the Twins.
Not to mention, Gomez has a lot of work to do. A lot. He’s a raw talent, but he’s a terrible hitter. If worse comes to worse, we send him down to AAA to work some things out.
A little commentary on Young for the statheads out there….
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/fantasy/article/breakout-party-delmon-young/
i think you try to get rid of cuddyer he doesn’t even have much power. he is good defensivley but we all know not as good as either span or gomez. i say get waht u can for Cuddyer. get rid of the scrub!!
The Twins would be crazy to trade the young Gomez. Take a closer look at his number last year and then at his age. You have the five tool ball player in the making. The Twins shold trade Cuddyer and keep Young, Gomez, Span, and Kubel. Cuddyer is expendable as is Punto. I don’t think Casey Blake can bring much to the Twins to get them into first place in 2009. It would have to be somebody with more power and higher batting average. I would not discount Luke Hughes and/or Dan Valencia for the third base position in 2009. They are both very young but have unlimited potential.
I definately think the Twins should trade both Cuddyer and Punto during the off season. I think Tolbert will be a pleasant surprise for the Twins in 2009 as will Young, Gomez, Casill, and Span. Luke Hughes and Dan Valencia are future Super Stars. You have a good third baseman in Valencia and a good second baseman in Hughes. Both have very good power and can hit for a high average. The only position players the Twins should definately try to move are Cuddyer and Punto. Neither can help the team enough to put them over the top for 2009. The future of the Twins is Mauer, Morneau, Span, Casilla, Gomez, Young, Kubel, Valencia, and Hughes. The Twins could easily win a division championship with that core.
Wow, a lot of comments!
Keep em’
How about (for a run next yr…)
VS RH- DY, Span, Cuddyer, Kubel DH
VS LH- DY, Gomez, Span, Cuddyer DH
Gomez can always come in to PR/Def when he doesn’t start, and Kubel PH vs Rh RP late….
Looks like a div winner, Get Blake for 3B, and a guy who can field at SS, and away we go!(I’d love to put Cuddyer at 3B, but wishing doesn’t make it work)
bill,
Since we don’t have Punto (free agent), trading him is not possible.
But if we can trade someone that doesn’t belong to us and get something good in return, its a wonderful but stupid suggestion.
THE TWINS NEED TO TRADE THE CURSE OF THE CUDDYER AND MR PUNTO IF THEY ARE GOING TO SERIOUSLY IMPROVE IN 2009. OTHERWISE THEY WIN REMAIN THE NOT QUITE GOOD ENOUGH TWINS OF THE PAST.
SINCE MR PUNTO CANNOT BE TRADED, LETS HOPE HE GOES ELSEWHERE. THAT WOULD REALY HELP THE TWIN IMPROVE. MATT TOLBERT IS A MUCH BETTER PLAYER THAN THE INCONSISTENT MR PUNTO.
LF = SPAN
SS = CASILLA
C = MAUER
1B = MORNEAU
DH = YOUNG
RF = CUDDYER
3B = VALENCIA
2B = HUGHES
CF = GOMEZ
Wouldn’t make sense to trade Gomez this off-season or the next one, for that matter, for the specific reasons the other posters have mentioned here.
The article itself referenced a great point, though-Carlos Gomez will NOT be in a Twins uniform four years from now w/ the Boras factor, so this one’s just a short term rental regardless of what comes of his career.
Horrible reality concerning today’s game and where this has all gone so terribly wrong.
JustinCB: Good hitting stats on Delmon. He is an above average hitter percentage-wise and average so far as a power hitter. He is young and could develop into more of a power hitter over time. The problem is he is only half a player. His defensive liabilities cancel out his offensive capabilities. As he ages and gains more weight (already has over the past year) he will only get worse as a fielder.
At best, Delmon should be a DH, but until he can hit 20-30+ HR’s its not likely to happen.
This profile of a player (okay hitter, bad defense, questionnable personality) typically doesn’t work in Minnesota - not that we have to stick with any formula…becasue we haven’t gone far in the playoffs for many years. But I think trading him for a better fit might be best for this team and for Delmon.
This team has extra outfielders, yet some serious gaps at SS, 3B and BP. If you could trade him for an impact player at those positions, it might make sense and we would be a better overall team.
If you could trade either Delmon or Gomez for a great young shortstop (Hardy, Escobar) it would be worth it, although doubtful to happen.
Otherwise hang onto all of the outfielders for now and either: send Gomez to AAA and/or platoon Kubel and Delmon at DH. None of the 3 will like it but it will force the talent issue and we will see which of them will rise to the challenge.
They can’t trade Go-Go! Cuddy must move to third. If that happens, we’ll be in good shape.
PaintedDog-yourposts are always good for a few chuckles. Delmon is uncoachable? Who told you that, Patrick Ruesse, who has a stik up his butt becasue DElmon doesn’t kiss the media’s ass? Why would he after the crap they write? Delmon gained weight? Did you weigh him once a week or…?
To give up on 23 year old Delmon Young is CRAZY- who is already a .292 career hitter and if he’s traded, we will look like idiots. It will make the Ortiz trade look good.
