Making Mauer-free batting orders
Posted on March 18th, 2009 – 8:31 AMBy Howard
Now that we’re more than halfway through the spring training that won’t end (Thanks, World Baseball Classic), it seems like a good time to throw out some batting orders-minus-Joe Mauer. Of course I’m hoping he’s back in time for Opening Day, but I’m not holding my breath and, really, making a batting order without him is that much more of a challenge.
I’m not going deep on the whys as much as putting these out for discussion and upgrades.
Against right-handed pitching: Span, lf-rf; Casilla, 2b; Morneau, 1b; Crede, 3b; Kubel, dh; Young/Cuddyer, rf-lf; Redmond/rookie, c; Punto, ss; Gomez, cf.
My thoughts: Am I too concerned about going lefty/righty/lefty/righty through the middle of the order? … If Morneau bats third, there really isn’t an obvious clean-up option, and I chose Crede because of his track record for hitting home runs. … Should Morneau bat third? … I’ve refrained from picking “winners” in the outfield race as much as recognizing that the four candidates are going to share the three spots… As you’ll see from my lineup-against-lefties, Kubel is my full-time DH.
Against lefties: Gomez, cf; Casilla, 2b; Young, lf; Morneau, 1b; Crede, 3b; Cuddyer, rf; Kubel, dh; Redmond/rookie, c; Punto, ss.
My thoughts: Entering games for defense and for a left-handed bat, Span still gets 400-450 ABs even if he doesn’t start often against lefties… Again, Crede bats higher than the other guys because of his power potential… Pretty much out of necessity, I’m betting on Gomez showing 25-30 points on OBP improvement against lefties … If Mauer’s healthy, I go Casilla-Mauer-Young and bat Gomez eighth or ninth.
And keep this in mind as a caution. It was about this time last season when many people were giving Detroit the division because of its sweet-looking batting order. There are no guarantees.
Heal, Joe Mauer.
131 Responses to "Making Mauer-free batting orders"
I know that calling pitches and handling pitchers is an important part of the catcher’s job but just how important is it? Can a rookie handle it or will the Twins need to pick up an experienced player before opening day?
Not only can a rookie handle calling a game, what about Redmond? I was under the impression that Gardy was only going to have him catch 3 games per week, maybe 4 at most. I’m thinking we need the rookie to catch on a daily basis with Redmond spelling him. What kind of effect will this have on the young pitchers? All questions with no sure answers.
Without Mauer, we need more power. So I say play Young, Kubel, AND Cuddyer and have Buscher DH. Then close your eyes to fly balls to the outfield.
I have no qualms at all about batting Morneau 3rd in a Mauer-less lineup. he’s your best hitter. That’s where he belongs (arguably even WITH Mauer in the order and hitting 2nd).
I don’t like the idea of Redmond or the rookie catcher hitting 7th behind Cuddyer/Young… but I don’t like Punto there either, necessarily. Can we use our DH for our catcher and let our pitchers hit? OK… just kidding… sorta. I know the kid catchers have hit OK. I’d just like to see Cuddyer and Young get a pitch to hit occasionally. I might solve my issue by hitting Cuddyer/Young 4th and Crede 6th. Crede strikes me as more of a “mistake” hitter. If a pitcher makes a mistake, he’ll punish the guy. If not, as a pure hitter, I don’t think he’s got the talent Young and Cuddyer could show.
I don’t think I’d really change the lineup based on facing a lefty. I’m thinking this for an everyday lineup:
Span lf/cf
Casilla 2b
Morneau 1b
Young/Cuddyer rf/lf
Kubel dh
Crede 3b
Redmond/rookie c
Punto ss
Gomez cf
Span should have been lf/rf in my proposed order.
Then when Gomez sits:
Span cf
Casilla 2b
Morneau 1b
Cuddyer rf
Kubel dh
Young lf
Crede 3b
Redmond/rookie c
Punto ss
When Span sits out, you just plug Gomez in to the leadoff spot in this order.
Against Righties:
Span LF
Casilla 2B
Young RF
Morneau 1B
Crede 3B
Kubel DH
Gomez CF
Morales C (he is a switch hitter)
Punto SS
Against Lefties:
Span LF
Casilla 2B
Young RF
Morneau 1B
Crede 3B
Cuddyer DH
Gomez CF
Redmond C
Punto SS
POWER LINE UP
Casilla 2B
Cuddyer RF
Young CF
Morneau 1B
Kubek LF
Crede 3B
Buscher DH
Redmond C
Harris SS
Wow Howard, that’s pretty gutsy putting Crede cleanup, I thought earlier you had said you saw him as a lower order guy (though I will admit that was before the lineup was mauerless)
Let’s see….
Gomez (CF)
Casilla (2B)
Young (LF)
Morneau (1B)
Kubel (DH)
Cuddyer (RF)
Crede (3B)
(Catcher) (C)
Punto (SS)
Gomez and Young have been hitting this Spring, Span has not. So those two in my book have earned their spots. Try Gomez out in the leadoff spot again, and if things start to look bad, then you hope Span gets his swing back through resting other guys in the OF.
And I still think Morneau protects Young well enough to get him some better pitching. Based on Crede thus far this spring, I wouldn’t move him up in the order until he gets his swing back to 100%…otherwise he won’t be able to protect ANYBODY.
Catcher is just that…Catcher. None of them are Mauer, but any one of them wouldn’t hit above anybody except Punto. And that’s just because I’d rather have Punto (who has some speed) on the bases ahead of guys like Gomez and Casilla instead of a catcher.
If things go the way the Twins hope, I could live with the following lineup by the end of the season:
Span (LF)
Mauer (C)
Young (RF)
Morneau (1B)
Kubel (DH)
Crede (3B)
Gomez (CF)
Punto (SS)
Casilla (2B)
Span gets his head together and is able to take back the leadoff spot. Mauer steps into the #2 spot. Having at least Span or Mauer on base ahead of him and Morneau coming up next gives Young better pitching. Kubel is still protecting Morneau, and Crede has shown his power.
The bottom looks a little funny. But I like Gomez to be on base ahead of Punto…so if Nicky’s struggling he can at least hope to advance Gomez for Casilla to knock him in. (Provided Gomez’s penchant for drilling himself into the ground when he’s at the plate with men on doesn’t return)
Here’s my two cents.
Gomez CF
Casillia 2B
Young LF
Morneaue 1B
Crede 3B
Kubel DH
Cuddyer RF
Redmond C
Punto SS
[…] A Fan’s View – […]
righties/lefties
Span
Casillia
Gomez
Morneau
Crede
Kubel
Young
Morales/Redmond
Punto
It’s time for the Twins to move on and forget about Cuddyer.
although mauer is probably better suited for the 2 hole in the batting order because of his great contact and 10-15 HR/year power, the more i look at a line up with mauer batting 2, the more i don’t like it. batting mauer in the 3 hole spreads the line up out more and looks much more intimidating to opposing pitchers, in my opinion. having casilla, or any of our other speed guys, in the 2 hole works better for our line up because of their stolen base potential. and thats how this team scores runs, by manufacturing. i think by having mauer bat 2, you’re almost relying on extra base hits for runs.
Against RHP
Span
Casilla
Cuddyer (Home)/D. Young (Road)
Morneau
Kubel (DH)
Crede
Punto
Redmond
Gomez
Againt LHP:
Span
Casilla
Cuddyer (Home)/D. Young (Road)
Morneau
Crede
Harris (DH)
Redmond
Gomez
Punto
Slight change in LHP:
Span
Casilla
Cuddyer (Home)/D. Young (Road)
Morneau
Crede
Cuddyer (Road)/D. Young (Road)
Redmond
Gomez
Punto
Harris does not quite make the cut.
Boy, tough morning that should be (Home) for D. Young in the 6th slot.
Please pick up Pudge for insurance
Thrylos, I liked both of your orders. Only thing I would change is making Delmon the DH against lefties and putting Cuddy in the OF.
bob, Too late. He’s going to Houston. And, yeah, Mr. *I*van Rodr*I*guez was gonna come to Minnesota to be a backup?
My grandma can catch … and for that matter, Punto could catch albeit not as good as grandma. The pitches come from the dugout. There isn’t any catcher in majors who calls the game without help.
Seems like most people here are okay having Gomez and his .296 OBP at the top of the order. That feels a little dumb to me - regardless of how fast he is, OBP is what makes a leadoff guy. I think Gomez will end up toward the bottom of the order this year. I like Gomez a ton, and I’m very confident he’ll continue to improve — but he’s no leadoff hitter.
Which actually is my biggest question for the Twins right now (yeah, yeah…after Mauer’s health) - who’s going to leadoff when Span sits. It seems to make sense to have Span in the 4th outfielder role since he can play all three positions; but is Casilla going to lead off when Span sits? And more importantly, is Gardy going to put Punto second? Exerience tells me that yes, he is going to do that. And those aren’t the guys we want accumulating the most at bats.
Whitey,
Is that TONY Kubek in LF?
Morneau should bat third, but how can you take Span, Casilla, or Mauer out of the top of the line-up? Of course, with an injury, Mauer is out, so that solves that problem. However, you have to have either Gomez or Span in EVERY DAY, just to set the table for the other hitters. You can’t have Casilla as your only speed guy in the line-up, it just won’t work. Punto doesn’t count because he never gets on base. Besides, how do you think Morneau racked up 100 RBI’s without hitting 30 jacks? He needed guys on in front of him, not power hitters.
Everyone should stop thinking about Carlos Gomez as a table-setter. He’s not. Nobody with a sub .300 OBP should ever be considered anything close to a table-setter. He’ll be a dynamic, bottom-of-the-order hitter. He may even push that OBP up to .325 this year.
having Gomez and his .296 OBP at the top of the order. That feels a little dumb to me
I think this is a little short sighted and presumptuous. The assumption is that a 22 year old cannot improve and his OBP will stay the same. Gomez worked hard this off-season and shows in ST. He is leading the team in OPS.
Here is one particular player’s of yore, age 22 season numbers: .194/.212/.194
if the team judged him by that, they would have not put him in the cleanup spot next season, he would have most likely riding the pine and would not put an age 23 season that looked like this: .242/.354/.516, 42 HR, 105 RBI
His name? Harmon Killebrew.
(by no means I am comparing Gomez to the Killer here… I am trying to give an example of the fact that players are likely to improve and for a 23 year old, his last season’s numbers are not a good projection for the current season)
I’d like to see Gomez and Young play everday. Gomez and Young are going to be the core of this team in 3 or 4 years. Cuddyer won’t even be in the picture two years from now. I would hate to see Delmon or Carlos have to sit just to get Cuddyer at-bats. I am not sold on Span, but if he continues like he has the past few days, he should definately start. I think all this debate over outfielders is really only relevant for the first two months are so. The lineup will work itself out over time.
Was Killebrew’s 22 year old stats a full season? Without looking it up, those stats look like they came from about 50 ABs.
I think it’s VERY presumptuous to assume that Gomez can raise his OBP enough to be considered a viable lead-off candidate. I would say a viable OBP for a lead-off guy would be .350 minimum. Anything below that would be less than ideal. Can Gomez raise his OBP .50+ this year? Seems unlikely. He’s just not patient enough to be a lead-off guy right now, and I think it would take years of work to get there.
That said, maybe it’ll turn out that Gomez will be our best lead-off option when Span sits. It doesn’t seem like it right now.
Punto doesn’t count because he never gets on base.
Didn’t Punto hit somewhere in the nature of .280 last season? Not spectacular…but hardly “never”.
WalJohn, I meant Kubel, not Kubek. But that’s not a bad idea. Tony played a little outfield on three World Champion Yankee teams. He was their shortstop mostly though.
Yeah T, and his OBP was over .340. Well, well above that of Carlos Gomez.
thrylos - thanks for the twins banter; I wish I had more time here, but I’ll have to be done for the day. I also enjoyed your post regarding the future of advertising in MLB - branded helmets, etc. I’ve had similar conversations while watching the WBC.
Benn,
“Can Gomez raise his OBP .50+ this year? Seems unlikely”
Not THAT unlikely.
Casilla raised his OBP .077 (from .256 to .333) from 2007 to 2008.
Span raised his OBP .064 (from .323 to .387) from 2007 to 2008, EVEN THOUGH HIS LOWER OBP WAS AT AAA!!!!
To me, WHO is in the lineup is much, much more important than WHAT ORDER they bat.
Put your best hitters in the top of the lineup, so they bat more often. If your left hand hitters are susceptible to LH pitching, consider breaking them up.
Other than that, concentrate on getting your best players INTO the lineup. The rest is details. I don’t buy the theory that player “A” gets better pitches to hit because he hits in front of, or behind, player “B”. (A possible exception would be number 8 hitters in a National League lineup, but even that is exaggerated, IMO.)
IMO, one of the outfielders will eventually remove himself from the everyday lineup through injury or ineffectiveness. If not, that’s a good problem to have…too many good hitters to put them all in the lineup.
This is funny:
Tony Kubek, shortstop, .266 hitter (lifetime)
Nick Punto, shortstop, .280 hitter
Tony’s in the Hall of Fame (as a broadcaster)
Nick is………in the WBC?
USAFChief,
Next time that Baker is the starting pitcher, a four outfielder defense may be a good idea.
Maybe we’ll play without a catcher.
That way, Mauer’s absence will not be a factor.
Next time that Baker is the starting pitcher, a four outfielder defense may be a good idea.
Can we have one of them positioned about 40 ft beyond the RF fence?
Killebrew had 30 AB’s in the majors when he was 22. Not even worth comparing to Gomez.
Killebrew had 30 AB’s in the majors when he was 22. Not even worth comparing to Gomez.
Isn’t that in itself worth the comparison.
But Killebrew didn’t PEAK at 22-yrs-old.
Gomez and Young have peaked at 22, and will not get any better.
I know this, because I read this blog every day.
Agree, not worth comparing Gomez to Killer. But back to Baker, I wouldn’t worry about him. His ERA was 3.45 last year and Cy Young at age 27 had a 3.94 ERA.
THAT’S A WHOLE HALF RUN LESS ! ! !
“Gomez and Young have peaked at 22, and will not get any better.
I know this, because I read this blog every day.”
sy:
And in contrast, the sky’s the limit for young Span.
I like Young in the third spot except for this: Is he patient enough to allow the speedsters to run first? And will taking too many pitches to allow for running upset his hack-attack? That’s why Joe is a double-pain for pitchers in that spot - hits for average but takes his time doing it.
The whole righty vs lefty thing is the most overrated, meaningless obsession in baseball. It only makes sense in individual, late game matchups when the specific pitcher and/or hitter have defined track records. However, I do believe having a good R/L lineup mix is important so that an opposing pitcher can’t get too comfortable with a certain pitch or target point. That being said, and taking defense into account, here is the optimal Mauer-less every day lineup I would field…
Span
Casilla
Cuddyer
Morneau
Kubel
Crede
Catcher
Punto
Gomez
Two things:
1) I acknowledge Cuddy in the 3 hole is odd. He takes pitches, allowing the jackrabbits to run, and he can hit the fastball, which he’ll get a ton of with said jackrabbits on base and MVP hitting behind him.
2) I know Delmon is killing the ball in ST. However, until I actually see him take a pitch, work a count, and just generally show that he knows how to hit, I’m not buying it. Throw in the travesty he calls outfield defense, and he doesn’t merit a spot in my starting lineup. I start him at DH against tough lefties and 5th starters that don’t know how to pitch.
I doubt Kubel will get many AB’s against lefties. I just see Gardy putting Young or Cuddyer as the DH so he doesn’t have to sit one of his regular outfielders on these days.
bufftwins,
I see the opposite. I see Kubel being the everyday DH, sitting out only, perhaps, against certain pitchers he has struggled against in the past.
I prefer going with three catchers and using a catcher as DH.
Trade Kubel *now*, either for a *starting* catcher or for pieces to get a starting catcher. Kubel is having a good spring and will have a solid career. His trade value is high.
Alternate Gomez and Young in the eighth spot (every other game), regardless of starting pitcher, for the first 54 games.
Right-handed starter:
1 Span lf/cf
2 Casilla 2nd
3 Morneau 1b
4 Cuddyer rf
5 Mauer c/dh
6 new catcher dh/c
7 Buscher 3b
8 Gomez/Young cf/lf
9 Punto ss
Left-handed starter:
1 Span lf/cf
2 Casilla 2nd
3 Morneau 1b
4 Crede 3b
5 Mauer c/dh
6 Cuddyer rf
7 new catcher dh/c
8 Gomez/Young cf/lf
9 Punto ss
Right-handed starter without Mauer:
1 Span lf/cf
2 Casilla 2nd
3 Morneau 1b
4 Cuddyer rf
5 Buscher 3b
6 new catcher dh/c
7 Morales dh/c
8 Gomez/Young cf/lf
9 Punto ss
Left-handed starter without Mauer:
1 Span lf/cf
2 Casilla 2nd
3 Morneau 1b
4 Crede 3b
5 Cuddyer rf
6 new catcher c/dh
7 Redmond dh/c
8 Gomez/Young cf/lf
9 Punto ss
1st of all, it’s just a matter of time before we need the 4th outfielder, so don’t trade Kubel. 2nd of all, we have another starting catcher…Mike Redmond who consistantly bats around .300. He may only be able to play 4 games a week, but that’s where a Morales etc. steps in for the 1st two weeks until Mauer’s back. Good god, it’s not like Mauer’s in a wheel chair. He will be back. and Young in the 8 spot? C’MON!!!
Who better to have around then Redmond to teach Morales or Ramos or Butera?
Im glad somebody stated that Young should not be batting 3rd. We need someone who is going to take advantage of the MVP batting behind them. Generally those batting ahead of the power guy will get good pitches to hit as long as the pitcher knows he wont swing at junk. Young has a history of swinging at junk and will continue to get junk no matter who is behind him. Put him 7th
And its pretty stupid to state the batting order doesn’t matter put the best hitters at the top of the batting order. After the 1st inning batting order takes a completely different view. You want bottom of the lineup hitters to be solid on base guys to keep that rally going for the top of the order guys.
Without Mauer
——————-
Span
Casilla
Crede
Morneau
Kubel
Young/Cuddy
Catcher
Punto
Gomez
With Mauer
—————–
Span
Mauer
Crede
Morneau
Kubel
Young/Cuddy
Punto
Gomez
Casilla
Next time that Baker is the starting pitcher, a four outfielder defense may be a good idea.
Maybe we’ll play without a catcher.
Nah, put Crede as DH and stick Kubel at “3rd” and shift him back into LF.
Then have Gomez catch. If anybody tries to steal 3rd Gomez will probably just beat them there for the tag.
The whole righty vs lefty thing is the most overrated, meaningless obsession in baseball. It only makes sense in individual, late game matchups when the specific pitcher and/or hitter have defined track records.
Meaningless? I don’t think so.
The whole right vs lefty thing is one of the most enduring, guaranteed advantages or disadvantages in baseball. It’s there year after year. Obviously individual hitters and or pitchers might have more or less of a platoon advantage, but by and large it’s a very real, very repeatable and very widespread phenomena.
Last year, for example, across the major leagues:
RH hitters vs RH pitching: 257/318/403 (721 OPS)
RH hitters vs LH pitching: 271/347/430 (777 OPS)
LH hitters vs RH pitching: 271/344/432 (776 OPS)
LH hitters vs LH pitching: 247/317/383 (699 OPS)
You can find similar numbers for any year you wish to research.
Morbo,
Have you ever stood in a batters box and seen a 90+ fastball right down the center of the plate and then see the next pitch, that looks the same coming out of the pitchers hand, come directly at your head, buckle your knees and then break down and away for a strike? Or see the pitch look like it’s in the center of the plate and watch it bounce in the dirt outside while you flail away?
That’s the disadvantage of rh/rh or lh/lh. It steals a fraction of the split second a batter has to determine the pitch location.
Morbo,
I shouldn’t of thrown the low and outside example in there. It’s not applicable. It’s the body safety issue. It’s an involountary response that is dificult at best to overcome.
Young shouldn’t be batting in the 3 hole until he cures his tendency to hit a rediculusoly high amount of ground balls. What good is it having 2 “jack rabbits” in front of him if they are going to be running into double plays on a regular basis. If he keeps hitting they way he has been for ST, however, I may change my tune.
Here’s my lineup:
Gomez/Span
Casilla
Cuddyer
Morneau
Young
Kubel
Crede
Catcher
Punto
It keeps the R/L/R and puts Young in a position to still knock in some runs.
Ridiculous.
Looks like I need spell check today.
I would think that Morneau will be staying in the cleanup spot no matter what.
Gomez
Cassila
Cuddyer
Morneau
Crede
Kubel
Young
Redmond
Punto
Paul,
“I shouldn’t of thrown the low and outside example in there. It’s not applicable.”
It IS applicable, because if you are geared to bail out on potential chin music, you are ill-prepared to hit the curve ball breaking away from you.
If Morbo doesn’t remember that, he has never faced a good pitcher in that situation.
It is very memorable and gets your heart a-pumpin’ and your corpuscles a-jumpin’! (To quote Jim Wacker)
sane,
I’m still not sure it’s applicable. No matter who’s pitchin, LH or RH, you’re geared to bail if necessary. With right on right or left on left there exists the momentary illusion of facial jeopardy. IMHO it’s that fraction of a split second lost that is the disadvatage. For me the running fastball or the 2 seamer never seemed as ominous.
I think this is the first time I’ve ever disagreed with you, expressly or unexpressed. Crap, now I’m not gonna trust my judgement the rest of the day.
I like all the lineups better with more Young/Span and less Cuddy/Gomez. Young will go to the all-star game with Morneau this year. I like our chances this year…I like them a lot. I also like Harris instead of Punto and think he can be a MUCH more dangerous hitter, and I like Tolbert’s potential.
everyday lineup with Joe (if Young doesn’t produce, replace Cuddy with Young and move Crede to the 3-hole.
Span (L)
Mauer (L)
Young (R)
Morneau (L)
Crede (R)
Kubel (L)
Harris (R)
Casilla (S)
Gomez (L)
Without Joe:
Span (L)
Casilla (S)
Young (R)
Morneau (L)
Crede (R)
Kubel (L)
Harris (R)
Catcher (R/B)
Gomez (L)
LDDublin,
Gomez bats RH
Paul,
Feel free to disagree with me.
All my friends and family do.
My point is that:
In the bail-out mode, a curveball (slider, whatever) breaking toward you is much easier to hit, than a curveball breaking way from you.
The latter pitch requires the hitter to dive toward the outside corner to hit.
That is when the spirit is willing, but the body may be weak.
Did anybody Bill James article on batting order. From a statiscal point of view the only batting order that makes any sense is to bat your best hitter first your second best second etc. You want to give you best hitters the most at bats. Other than that batting orders have no statiscal basis.
sane,
I’m not exactly sure what you mean by the bail-out mode. Would you be so kind as to define it for me? I never went into the “bail-out mode” until I sensed jeopardy.
Its about being able to pick up the ball…Left Handed hitters have a more difficult time picking up the ball from a left hander on release. I think most left handers throw from an angle and more right handers throw over the top to some extent.
The “bail-out mode” is when bailing out becomes one of a hitters conscious (rather than sub-conscious) anticipatory reactions he may consider, depending on the location and type of pitch.
It has taken my entire life (up till now) to use “anticipatory” in a sentence.
I hope that it is a real word.
sane,
Thank you.
As I anticipate more interesting exchanges with you, I now consider myself in an anticipitory state.
Yes! Now I’ve used it too!
a curveball (slider, whatever) breaking toward you is much easier to hit, than a curveball breaking way from you.
Its about being able to pick up the ball
IMO, those two points are the crux of the issue.
It’s inherantly easier to hit a ball breaking into your swing than one breaking away from it.
It’s also possible that for many hitters, it’s inherantly easier to pick up the ball from an opposite handed pitcher.
Add those two things together, and you end up with something around .060-.080 points of OPS, across major league baseball.
And the true difference is probably larger, due to the self correcting nature of the problem. Managers tend to limit ABs (as much as possible) against same-handed pitchers for those
hitters who have the most problems with it. Brian Buscher, for example, got something like 80 percent of his ABs against RH pitching. That’s not an accident, and it happens across baseball. Were there less platooning, there would almost surely be an even bigger platoon split shown by the overall numbers.
Early in the pitch trajectory from the pitchers hand to the strike zone, (for the LH batter facing a LHP or RH batter facing a RHP) there is a point where the ball may either be going toward the strike zone or toward the batter’s melon, and the batter can’t be certain which is the destination.
That is what causes the adrenaline rush.
Chief,
I guess some batters have problems picking up the ball but IMO, picking up the ball is a matter of focus. If a batter feels he doesn’t pick up the ball well, in certain circumstances, he is being distracted by something that the pitcher’s doing. It’s obvious that some pitchers “hide” the ball better than others. But once the ball is released it’s only velocity that determines the time a batter has to gage the pitch. No matter where the ball is released, or what the pitcher does prior to release, if the batter sees the ball on release his time to gage is only limited by his involuntary body response to jeopardy.
IMHO
sane,
Exactly!
Gotta go.
Thanks for the stimulation.
There, that oughta set BOP or t98 up.
Delmon Young in the 3-hole would be a disaster. Not very often does he offer a good at-bat, if ever.
Young: 4 GIDPs today. No need to be in the 3 hole ever.
how do you ground into 4 double plays if you TRY to do that? that’s ridiculous.
Right, Casey. Major League record is four in a game by Joe Torre!
I think he’ll have a better year than last year, but he needs to start driving the ball. Otherwise we get what happened today.
he needs to start having better at-bats… grounding into FOUR double plays shows a inability or a lack of effort to make an adjustment.
v. RHP:
1) Span LF
2) Casilla 2B
3) Morneau 1B
4) Cuddyer RF
5) Kubel DH
6) Crede/Buscher 3B
7) Redmond/Rookie C
Punto SS
9) Gomez CF
v. LHP:
1) Span LF
2) Casilla 2B
3) Redmond C
4) Morneau 1B
5) Cuddyer RF
6) Young DH
7) Crede 3B
Punto/Harris SS
9) Gomez CF
I find it interesting that Baker gave 5 home runs in 2 back to back games and it is business as usual and when Span actually hit the ball in a game, “he is back”. However; Delmon has a bad game (even thought he hit one out), let’s crucify him…
thrylos-
Baker has earned the right to struggle in Exhibition games. Delmon Young is fighting for playing time.
And Young is so far hitting .382. How does that compare to Span. Is he above .100 finally?
grounding into FOUR double plays shows a inability or a lack of effort to make an adjustment
Or, it shows that a guy hit the ball hard on the ground four times, at somebody, with runner(s) on base.
Delmon does hit too many ground balls, but let’s not overreact to one game, people.
If a couple of those ground balls were 10 feet left or right, and snuck through for hits, would you be saying he had a great game?
Chief-
Players are taught not to hit the ball on the ground with a runner on 1st base and less than two outs. 4 double plays is a lot. it’s a selfish play. lucky it is spring training…
From the quotes in JoeC’s blog, it’s clear DY was up there today to work on pulling the ball. In other words, it’s ST and he is working on a specific aspect of his game that he’s aware has been a weakness.
Wow… what a friggin revolutionary concept!
JC,
word
Thrylos….
Do you know what Left handers BA against Duensing was last year at AAA?
Players are taught not to hit the ball on the ground with a runner on 1st base and less than two outs. 4 double plays is a lot. it’s a selfish play. lucky it is spring training…
Players are ‘taught not to hit the ball on the ground with a runner on 1st base and less than two outs’?
I thought players were taught to swing at strikes and hit the ball hard.
Turns out that’s selfish if it’s hit hard right at the shortstop, but great hitting if it’s in the hole.
Funny, you’d think if it was that easy a selfish player like Delmon would hit EVERY ball in the hole, so as to make more money.
Do you know what Left handers BA against Duensing was last year at AAA?
you are thinking LOOGY? nah, he is better than that
2008 Rochester: .283 LHB, .275 RHB
career: .260 LHB, .267 RHB
He’ll no doubt start doing that once he’s at least arbitration-eleigible, Chief. Until then, he just has to do well enough to stay in the league and get his half-million or so a year in “serf pay”. 
Players are taught not to hit the ball on the ground with a runner on 1st base and less than two outs.
like someone can have a pinpoint control on where the ball is hit… At least he made contact. BTW, with a runner on first, players are “taught” to hit behind the runner. Today, with Delmon apparently working on pulling the ball, that could not have happened…
JC,
Delmon is making $1.15M this season.
when i played baseball in college we had SITUATIONAL batting practice sessions EVERY DAY focusing on things SUCH AS not hitting the ball on the ground with a guy on 1st so as to avoid double plays.
“I thought players were taught to swing at strikes and hit the ball hard.”
…don’t forget that players are taught to catch the ball in the air before it hits the ground; or that they are taught to touch all 4 bases in order to score runs.
“I thought players were taught to swing at strikes and hit the ball hard.”
…don’t forget that players are taught to catch the ball in the air before it hits the ground; or that they are taught to touch all 4 bases in order to score runs.
“I thought players were taught to swing at strikes and hit the ball hard.”
…you could also mention that players are taught to catch the ball in the air before it hits the ground; or that they are taught to touch all 4 bases in order to score runs.
oops sorry bout that
my hope is that Ramos comes up with the big club. Unfortunately it won’t happen, but the guy is amazing, and calls an even better game. Nathan absolutely loves him - no one EVER calls a change-up to Nathan. He is the future at the position, back-up or otherwise (ie Mauer moves on or changes positions).
I thought DY was netting something like 700K this year. I never did quite follow that whole “he’s getting a raise but it’s actually a paycut” thing.
Chief and sane,
I’ve been givin more thought to that righty lefty thing. I trigged out the difference in length from the release point to the batters head. Thinking the greater distance from the opposite handed pitcher would be a factor. I assumed 55′ for release point and 48″ for the distance from RH to LH release point. The difference is 1.7″ or .25%. Even given the relatively short time the batter has to react, my gut feeling is that this difference is not more than a minute factor. I also considered the stereoscopic aspect of vision. But the distance is so close to the same I don’t see this as a factor at all. Ergo, I feel very strongly that the only mitigating factor is not losing that fraction of a split second figuring out if you might get smacked in the kisser.
Chief, I’m with you on that taught to not hit on the ground thing. I was taught to hit it in the air, if you could, with a guy on 3B with less than 2 outs. I think maybe Casey misunderstood his coach. Or the coach did him a disservice. I remember, albeit fuzzily, a coach telling me 60% of ground balls are not outs and 60% of fly balls are.
BUT, overall I agree with Casey that hitting into DPs is not a good thing for a batter to do.
I thought DY was netting something like 700K this year.
here is the skinny: Delmon signed a major league contract with the Rays out of the bat, covering all his pre-arbitration years (with 2009 being the last one). The original contact was calling for a $1.4 M cap. However, clubs have the option to cut a contract for a player under their control by a maximum percentage (similar to what they did with Monroe’s contract last season, but because Monroe had more experience, both parties had to approve the cut to happen). The Twins did that with Young, unilaterally, so he will be making $1.15M for 2009.
I think maybe Casey misunderstood his coach.
I’m wondering exactly WHAT his coach taught him…”save your line drives into the gap for when there’s a runner on first and less than two outs, son. Hit that hard grounder right at the shortstop when there’s two out, nobody on, and we’re up by 5.”
Paul,
of course, all that theory goes away with my favorite pitches: a screwball that snicks in to a righty from a righty and a change up that snicks in to a lefty from a lefty.
On the other hand a nice sharp, late breaking slider that looks like might hit a batter on the hip and breaks into the strike zone 10 feet from the plate is equally effective; problem is that I have not seen many non-sidearmers and sub-mariners having that kind of action on their breaking stuff.
I don’t know, but most coaches, esp in the non-pro levels go for the basics:
* hit the ball with the fat part of the bat
* keep your elbows up
I am not sure whether a lot of major league players have control on hitting a line drive over a ground ball on any pitch. They do have control of hitting a fly ball with an uppercut swing. That’s about it. It all depends on the pitch, the spin of the ball and the part of the bat that makes contact with the ball and how late (on early) on the swing contact is made. Add ball velocity and bat speed, and that’s about it.
“when i played baseball in college we had SITUATIONAL batting practice sessions EVERY DAY focusing on things SUCH AS not hitting the ball on the ground with a guy on 1st so as to avoid double plays.”
What college program teaches that?
Hitting line drives by hitting down on the top of the ball is taught universally at the college and pro level programs with which I am familiar.
The exceptions are for power hitters and for driving the ball in a sacrifice fly situation.
Hitting the ball in the air to avoid ground ball double plays is not what is normally taught in my experience.
Hitting the ball in the air to avoid ground ball double plays is not what is normally taught in my experience.
Does “hit the ball with the fat part of the bat, keep your elbows up and use your hips, and keep your eye on the ball as it hits your bat” sound more right?
Even pros do not have much control of a ground ball vs a line drive. Way too many factors involved, most of them influenced by the pitch
it’s hard to hit line drives on demand even in the pros
Does “hit the ball with the meat part of the bat, keep your elbows up and use your hips, and keep your eye on the ball as it hits your bat” sound more right?
all of your points are valid to some degree but the higher level you get in baseball you should be able to “place” the ball for such reasons as sac flys, moving runners, etc etc, AND avoid hitting into double plays. that said, pitchers GET guys to ground into double plays. THAT said, 4 in one game is ridiculous. THAT said, it was a spring game and delmon could care less what happened.
seeing as how this thread isn’t going to be read by anyone tomorrow i’ll save my hitting approach for this summer and let delmon young work on his own game with coaches that know more than all of us combined.
After:
1) checking several college baseball textbooks;
and
2)interrogating a good coaching friend who has a College World Series championship ring from Pepperdine, and is currently coaching at his third college;
and
3) Reviewing handouts and notes from the many baseball coaching clinics I have attended:
I conclude that teaching batters to hit the ball in the air to avoid ground ball double plays is absolutely the opposite of what is normally taught in college baseball.
I already knew that it is not done in HS baseball.
In college, the hitter is usually taught to hit hard ground balls preferrably between the 3-4 hole and the 1B foul-line; otherwise between the 5-6 hole and the 3B foul-line.
Either Mighty Casey misunderstood his college coach, or his college coach was teaching a seldom taught technique.
pitchers GET guys to ground into double plays
nope. Batters ground into double plays. All pitchers can do (and that is the best of them) is to control the velocity, trajectory, movement and placement of the ball in and around the strike zone.
It is a guessing game. The batter is trying to guess where the ball would be coming and how and the pitcher is trying to guess what the batter is guessing and pitch differently…
“All pitchers can do (and that is the best of them) is to control the velocity, trajectory, movement and placement of the ball in and around the strike zone” and thus “GET guys to ground into double plays”.
IMO the “nope” should be a “yep”.
sane,
we are coming from different perspectives on this, but a pitcher’s goal is for a batter to leave the plate with the bat on his shoulder after a strikeout. The last thing a pitcher would want to do is to put the ball in play…
The last thing a pitcher would want to do is to put the ball in play…
unless there is a guy on first and you can keep the ball on the ground. is that an unusual concept?
Sane-
i understand what you are saying. i should also have clarified that we were taught to hit the ball in the air (line-drives, gap shots, etc), or to the corners. ground balls up the middle were unacceptable and we would get the boot from the cage for that… just like we would get the boot for hitting fly balls while simulating infield in, or ground balls while simulating infield deep… and other situational BP drills.
more or less we were instructed to not hit ground balls towards the middle infield. previously i said that we were taught to hit strictly fly-balls, and i can see why that is a stupid idea.
whether or not our coaching staff was right to “teach” us not to hit ground balls up the middle is debatable. (and in this case, your books and Pepperdine says that this is incorrect). i don’t disagree with you. but at some point adjustments must be made… like after the 3rd GIDP, perhaps?
thrylos98,
“a pitcher’s goal is for a batter to leave the plate with the bat on his shoulder after a strikeout.”
That is the ultimate goal I guess, but when I pitched, my favorite moment was when I sawed off or fooled a batter so badly, that he hit a pathetic, fluttering, little popcorn kernel back to me.
And with no out and runners at 1st and 2nd, a DP is better than a K.
Fooling the batter so badly that he nubs a little one-hopper back to the mound for a 1-6-3 DP is a worthwhile goal in that situation.
****just like we would get the boot for hitting ground balls while simulating infield in, or fly balls while simulating infield back.
Mighty Casey,
I agree with you and your coach that ground balls “TOWARDS THE MIDDLE INFIELD” are a terrible idea in DP situations.
Ground balls toward the corners, rather than flyballs seem to be the most widely taught remedy.
And I prefer THAT, because I don’t want to deviate from teaching the downward batting stroke, unless there is an overwhelming reason to do so.
IMO the sacrifice fly situation or a big-time power hitter with actual HR-potential are the only excuses that I would ever use, to deviate from the downward batting stroke.
Don’t forget that getting a batter to put the ball in play can make an out in 1 pitch vs. 3.
I’m sure most pitchers (if they truly had that much control) would love to go through 9 innings having only thrown 27 pitches.
All of our pitchers are instructed to “pitch to contact until 2-strikes”.
Of course, with a runner at 3B, and zero or one out, we revise those instructions.
Opening Day 25 Man Roster?
“1st of all, it’s just a matter of time before we need the 4th outfielder, so don’t trade Kubel.”
Kubel is the *fifth* outfielder.
Well I’m glad I have Memphis winning this whole thing in one of the brackets I filled out.
I don’t fill out brackets when I have a team in the tourney (Minn)
I find it to be a conflict of interest. 
Kubel playing against left hand pitchers, and Span on the bench? What on earth are you thinking, Howard? Crede batting fourth or fifth? Ugh!
Back to AAA to hone your skills, Howard.
Span
Casilla
Crede
Morneau
Gomez
Kubel
Young
Red
Punto
Oh no! Now Crede is batting third. What next? Lead-off?
Gomez should never be behind Morneau or jusin will never see a pitch to hit and would lead the league in walks. switch young and gomez and that would look good to me DOMI.
Let me try this…
Span
Casilla
Kubel
Morneau
Crede
Young
Gomez
Red
Punto
Against Righties
Span LF
Casilla 2B
Young RF
Morneau 1B
Kubel DH
Crede 3B
Redmond/Morales C
Punto SS
Gomez CF
Against Lefties
Casilla 2B
Punto SS
Young LF
Morneau 1B
Cuddyer RF
Crede 3B
Harris DH
Redmond C
Gomez CF
Anticipating Howard………..God bless Koskie.
A true Twin — a soft-spoken guy, with constant intensity on the field. He lost the labor of love of his life, but wouldn’t accept it as such. Gave it his all, and made all the right decisions at the right time.
So, he’ll never need to look back. A great North American. A friend of us all.
I just wish him peace and satisfaction.
No immediate thoughts about a non-Mauer lineup….just don’t put Red Dog in the 3-hole.
However, I write today to offer 220ers something to celebrate…a story that is apparently a couple weeks old….our old pal Lew Ford is back playing in the states; inking a minor league contract with the Colorado Rockies!
[…] what we were thinking a couple of weeks ago, when we took our first shot at Mauer-free batting […]
