What happens in the bullpen should stay in the bullpen
Posted on June 24th, 2009 – 9:20 AMBy Howard
I knew Francisco Liriano was going to struggle last night as soon as I read Joe C.’s post about the lefty’s great bullpen session over the weekend. Anyone else remember the last Twins pitcher who always seemed to find his stuff in the bullpen, but never translated that into success on the real pitcher’s mound?
That would be Carlos Silva.
Anyone who has read about baseball … or listened to announcers … or heard interviews with former pitchers… has heard/read that there can be little correlation between what happens on the sidelines and during a real game.
“I had nothing in the ‘pen and then it all came together on the mound.”
“He looked sharp in the bullpen but then he couldn’t even retire Bill Hall.”
You know what I mean.
Don’t fool yourself. Francisco Liriano was good enough to get the win last night only because the Twins took advantage of Milwaukee’s mess-ups in the field and weaknesses at the plate to jump to an early lead. Gardy said he was one batter away from pulling Liriano during the fifth, which would have deprived him of the victor. He threw 117 pitches in five innings. That’s hard to do.
It was one of those nights. The list of key offensive moments includes Michael Cuddyer’s clutch strikeout in the first inning, when he managed to wave at a curve ball outside and in the dirt that skipped away for a two-out wild pitch and Cuddyer reached first. It set up the Joe Crede double that gave the Twins a 3-0 lead and softened the pain of Liriano’s two-run first inning.
Mike Cameron’s hesitation in the second inning allowed Carlos Gomez a double that led to a run on Brendan Harris’ two-out single and J.J. Hardy’s boot in the third on a double-play grounder set up the Twins’ three-run third. Those are the places where the Twins’ seven runs were hatched.
I’ve heard a lot of people say that Liriano would be well suited to the bullpen because of his typical early-game success. But I’m not buying that. His incredible inconsistency and seemingly soft mental approach make me not want to run him out there in a close game, and I think that letting him languish in the bullpen — waiting for one-sided games — would pretty much be a concession speech. And as well as Anthony Swarzak pitched in several of his starts (three solid ones, two awful ones), I don’t know that he’s ready to go every fifth day in a title chase.
I’m holding on to the notion that Liriano can still be a front-of-the-rotation starter if he gets his stuff (literally) together. Somehow, the Nos. 3-4-5 hitters for the Brewers last night had no RBI and only one single against him (in addition to three walks). Liriano was at his worst, for the most part, against the parts of the Milwaukee lineup that struggle.
It’s frustrating to watch and seems like a reward for mediocrity — a generous description for a 3-8 record and 5.88 ERA — but the best course for the Twins may be to stick with Liriano and hope he comes around, all the while making sure that Gardy’s hook is quick enough to minimize damage to the team.
At least Luis Ayala won’t be relieving him.
108 Responses to "What happens in the bullpen should stay in the bullpen"
Liriano’s stuff is too good to not give him some more time. If there is no patience now, there is zero chance for a late season reward (rather than, what, 15%?).
He is Livian Hernandez like with Ks. Oh wait Hernandez was better.
I am tempted to think that a move to the bullpen would address a few issues (Liriano’s starts and a good late inning guy). But I would have to agree that it is not the solution. We recently saw his stats from the stretch posted on here, and relievers find themselves coming into games with runners on. Also, do we have anyone better? I think Howard is right - I don’t trust Swarzak in a pennant race…
“I knew Francisco Liriano was going to struggle last night as soon as I read Joe C.’s post about the lefty’s great bullpen session over the weekend.”
Pretty sure I hinted at the exact same thing in this space yesterday…suffice it to say a lot of die hard Twins fans probably had similar thoughts. Still, I was hoping Frankie would shutdown the Brewers. He struggled but he gave us a chance to win and thanks to Gardy’s correct usage of the bullpen, we won. I agree with Howard that Frankie is a starter.
As far as Louis Ayala, I do find it interesting how our friendsly Twins TV announcers pick and choose when they are going to throw certain guys under the bus (while other guys are completely untouchable). Last night they hammered Ayala pretty hard–citing inside things they would never bring up about other players. The height of it was when Bert acknowledged that Ayala was “thinking about next year’s contract.”
Seriously, Bert, what player who isn’t locked up long term doesn’t think about next year’s contract? It’s only natural. I have to imagine it’s crossed Joe Crede or even Joe Mauer’s mind a time or two (psst, Twins should work hard to retain both).
Of course we won’t miss Ayala much. I still content that as long as Gardy sticks to the A-squad, B-squad script, our bullpen isn’t terrible. I keep waiting for Guerrier to blow up but he’s looking solid, so there are no complaints.
Guess what…we really can’t complain about the lineup much either now. I mean, Go-Go is producing, albeit slowly, Young is showing some signs of life (although he will see the bench when Span returns), and Punto contiues to hover above the .220 mark. What a deal.
And the best part is 4-for-4 against the Brewers. A season sweep against the Brewers and Brett Favre as our quarterback? This has a chance to be a pretty fun summer in Minnesota.
Jason,
Speak for yourself, my friend. Jay Cutler is MY quarterback!!
Liriano tires me. He’s the Punto of the starting staff. Uncle Rico keeps trucking both on the field for questionable results.
Howard, you and La Velle can keep your Bears parties confined to your respective basements, in that case. I’ll be happy when AP tears through that fictitious defense.
But back to the point–the common ground is our rivalry with the Wisconsinites. I’ll cheer for your Bears to beat the Pack everytime if the Brewers get swept again this week by the Twins!
Didn’t the Twins brass say that Crain was having solid bullpen sessions as well during his struggles this year?
While I’m not ready to give up on Liriano at this point either,my reasoning would be a bit different than Howards.
That the Twins are in a “title chase” seems a bit much to me.I realize they are only four games back,but there are so many wholes in the Twins roster.Liriano’s struggles mirror the teams as a whole,no consistancy,and I can’t see that translating into a run at the division.
Barring a blockbuster trade this team looks to me like one that will tread water all season.And that’s the reason to keep trotting the former “Franchise”
out there every fifth day.Because in about a month, I’m afraid this team will be playing for 2010.I hope I’m wrong!
I suppose someone should bring up the SI curse, so I’ll bite.
Probably just coincidence because Mauer was showing signs of slowing down anyway (hard to keep up a .425 pace forever), but 0-for-5 on the day when he hit the cover of SI with the number .400 next to his name…oh well, he’s still not Puckett yet. 
He is Livian Hernandez like with Ks. Oh wait Hernandez was better.”
Liriano has been bad but not that bad.
Jay Cutler is MY quarterback!!
Oh, Howard. I pity you. Chicago is the NFL graveyard for promising QB careers.
Do you think Cuddyer saw that pitch was going to be wild and purposely swung and missed to get on base?
Seriously, Bert, what player who isn’t locked up long term doesn’t think about next year’s contract?
To Bert’s defense, the context of the discussion concerned Ayala’s contract thinking “out loud” to his manager and that his mind should have been on figuring out how to quit sucking.
I suppose someone should bring up the SI curse, so I’ll bite.
I say if they announce that he will be on the cover of the next season’s baseball video games, the Twins should look to trade him immediately.
Those two curses combined can only spell doom.
I like when we hear how great Delmon Young looks in batting practice.
Right, Jason. Another coincidence is the Twins have two catchers heading for .400 except in different directions. Morales needs two more hits and he’ll be there also. He’s .407 for his career.
I guess it was inevitable that Blyleven would crow on last night about the great inning Crain pitched in Rochester, throwing a lot of strikes. Hey Bert, Crain threw strikes for us, the problem was they left the plate faster than he could throw them. Control is not an issue, a straight as a string fastball is. Deal him!
Liriano was forced to throw a lot of belt-high fastballs and sliders down the middle because he was behind in the count all night (and the ump was squeezing both starters). Yet the Brewers hitters were content to watch those pitches, hoping the umpire called them balls, so they could walk to first rather than driving in runners on base with hits.
One at bat to Hart symbolized the night for them. With runners on first and second and two outs, he took a belt-high hanging slider on a 3-1 count. It was clear he had no intention of swinging. He struck out on the next pitch–one of the rare fastballs on the outside corner at the knees.
Any other team with any other approach would have knocked Liriano out in the third inning.
Can a move to the bullpen help? I doubt it. He needs to learn how to be consistent within the game (or at bat). That holds for both starters and relievers. Plus, if you move him to the bullpen, you concede that your best pitching prospect has regressed to the level of Jose Mijares.
Morrales is a converted catcher. Why not convert him back and let him play outfield for the Red Wings? He will be better than Young defensively and offensively and the way Cuddyer is sliding, will be better than he is by next Spring.
HOWARD:
This needs to be asked. How did you feel when former Chicago Bear legend and Super Bowl winner Jim McMahon was signed by the Vikings?
I’d take Mijares over Liriano any day. Jose can at least show some fire and get people out. Liriano is a trainwreck. No wonder every other team wanted Baker, Slowey and Blackburn over the winter but no one wanted Perkins or Liriano, even though they are lefties.
“(and the ump was squeezing both starters)”
The ump gave Liriano a pretty clutch called third strike on his final pitch.
Liriano can get it back. No sense throwing him away. Use him in the pen - we need bp help, he needs time.
“No wonder every other team wanted Baker, Slowey and Blackburn over the winter but no one wanted Perkins or Liriano, even though they are lefties.”
I would love to see your proof of that
I think Liriano was grooming Mauer for 3rd base with all the grounders he was throwing him last night.
I can’t ever remember feeling so discouraged after a 4-run victory. And one of the big challenges as a fan is to remember that the season extends 162 games. And given that we aren’t in the same division as the Red Sox and Yanks, we have the luxury of time. Gardy always thinks evolutionarily. You have to say you’re worried about your contract in future years to get him to act swiftly. He is the opposite of Ozzie. He manages for the long term. And while I don’t always love it, I do accept it.
That said, I am going to gently disagree w/ Howard here. I think Liriano is really pressing now. To throw 117 pitches in 5 innings. . after the season he has had. . in my experience, these things rarely just work themselves out.
I don’t want to send him down to work it out. But I do think middle relief is a fine place for him to get the innings, keep the arm strong, and do so with less pressure. You bring Swarzak back up and put him in the rotation. He has earned it before coming up, while with the Twins, and since going down.
You put Frankie in to long relief alongside Dickey, who gets a mild upgrade toward being the 7th/8th inning guy alongside Guerrier.
And what happens? I say we end up 10 games above .500 this year, winning our division by 20 games over the second place team :), and we get a shot at getting Frankie back on track.
Go Twins!
Was that a typo in the box score? Gomez had 2 hits, 2 runs, and 2 RBI? I bet it was a typo, it must have been Span, he must have come off the DL early.
Adam, Gomez had 3 hits. That was the typo.
I don’t like moving Liriano to the bullpen. He threw a ton of pitches yesterday. Stamina isn’t the issue, it’s repeating his mechanics. I’d much rather see him sent down to Rochester than put in the bullpen.
How bout this idea, instead of Liriano in the rotation put in Dickey.
All Liriano needs is one more good bullpen session and he’ll be completely back on track. Geesh, why all the worrying?
Matt, that’s a great idea - we’ll take one of the 4 good bullpen arms and take him out of the bullpen, leaving us with 3 good bullpen arms.
Send Liriano to Rochester and the focus will shift from fixing Liriano’s mechanics/psyche to how Liriano and his agent think they are being screwed by the Twins to reduce his service time.
WJ, I’m pretty sure Liriano is arbitration-eligible after this season regardless of how much more he pitches in the majors.
Benny W.,
Thanks for that info. I’m sure they can find something else to bitch about.
shaun,
Didn’t bother me at all when McMahon joined the Vikings. He was several years and two teams removed from the Bears and, frankly, I think Sage Rosenfels could have QB’d the ‘85 Bears to the Super Bowl. I’m in favor of Favre coming to the Vikings, because I don’t think he’ll make them a better team — AND because it drums up a lot of action for a media organization that I care about deeply.
By putting Swarzak in the rotation and Liriano in the bulllpen, you’re trying to kill 2 birds with 1 stone when you should just be trying to kill 1 bird.
It’s the same logic that Casilla didn’t get when he flubbed those grounders and got demoted.
Benny, do you not think that Swarzak could be a good bullpen arm? He pitced 7 shut out innings twice i think he could pitch 1 or 2 shut out innings.
Matt, Swarzak could probably be good in the bullpen. I think he’d be better in the rotation. And I don’t want to rock the boat with R.A. when he’s been pitching so well.
I didn’t mean to start a football thread, but do you honestly think Favre wouldn’t make the Vikings a better team, Howard?
Love Favre or hate Favre, but I don’t think there can be much debate–he would make the Vikes better. I would say dramatically better, actually.
That’s what I thought, Howard!
Green Bay Packer fans should just shut their pie holes!
I think sending Liriano down to Rochester to work with Cuellar on polishing a changeup through the All-Star break would be the best course. You tell him he’s absolutely coming back no matter what…his results down there will determine whether it is in the pen or in the rotation.
To “guide” him to that course of action you give him a “choice”: The three weeks in Rochester route or he takes Dickey’s role as the once-in-every-two-weeks filler. My guess is he’d choose pitching every five days and an intense course in changeup 101 from the master over sitting in the bullpen practicing seed spitting.
This assumes that FL has options left, of course.
Benny, it seems like we agree. Perhaps I’m not understanding. I think Swarzak belongs in the rotation. The only problems he’s had come when throwing out of the stretch. His fastball has movement; he works neatly through a game; and he had only one control blowup (and that was throwing from the stretch).
I don’t see sending Liriano down, but perhaps that’s your point. Liriano has worked out of the bullpen before. And I agree with the previous poster who notes that a minor league move might ruffle agent feathers (sure, you can say this shouldn’t matter…but…it’s an unnecessary distraction).
I don’t want to change Dickey much at all. All I’m talking about is upgrading him from coming in with the team up or down by 4+ runs to bringing him in during key situations. That we did not throw Dickey in key moments against NL teams was just a very bad call. Dickey is an AL arm. . . the NLers haven’t seen his stuff. We should have exploited that during Interleague, rather than taking the time to prove to the world that Ayala is a lemon.
But, I’d go Swarzak to rotation. Liriano to long relief when up or down by 4+ runs. Dickey to later long relief in key situations…often setting up Guerrier. And lets get this team where it belongs — continually above .500. Mauer and Morneau deserve a better attempt at making this a divisional leader with a pitching staff organized around strengths.
Tee Mouse in Da House
Has any pitcher ever won a game throwing 117 pitches in five innings? I challenge the stat geeks to find such an occurrence! It takes a lot of variables in order for that to happen.
First, your team must have scored runs in order for you as the pitcher to still be in the game. Liriano faced no fewer than five batters in all five innings and that happened in only two innings. Your manager has literally fallen asleep in the dugout due to the duration of the first half of the game. The opposing pitcher(s) must really suck in order to draw away from the suckitude effort put forth in tossing 24 pitches per inning while maintaining the lead your team gave you. The bullpen is so bad and in disarray that keeping you in the game is the “best option”. And finally, your arm did not fall off when you got past 100 pitches.
Would Favre only start away games? Because he has always stunk in the Metrodome.
Regarding good bullpen sessions or hitting well in batting practice. What golfer doesn’t hit the ball consistently straight and on the sweet spot when on the driving range and then struggles to repeat the same swing and obtain the same results on the golf course? It simply is not the same. A lot of it is mental. The mind ultimately controls the mechanics.
I think Liriano’s problems are mostly mental and/or mechanical.
I don’t think he has quite the stuff (on all levels) he had pre-surgery, but he’s talented enough that he should be better than this.
Apparently, you can DL a pitcher for “mental issues” as Detroit has done with Dontrelle Willis. That would be my course of action for Cisco. Give him whatever it takes, Anderson, Cuellar, sports psychologist, etc., to get his head on straight, locate his pitches, trust his stuff. When he comes back, it could be as a starter or in the bullpen, whichever seems the greatest need at the time.
Swarzak is more deserving of the rotation spot at the moment. I trust him with it a lot more than I do Liriano. And you’re not going to know if he can handle a ‘title chase’ until you put him in the middle of one.
I don’t buy Detroit as division champions, so I’m not even close to counting the Twins out. But if they’re destined to tumble, trotting this version of Liriano out there every fifth day or more often may well be the catalyst that starts them circling the drain.
This assumes that FL has options left, of course.
He was added to the 40-man in 2006, but not optioned out in either that year or 2007. He was optioned out in 2008. So, I think he’s only used one option.
Why not convert him back and let him play outfield for the Red Wings?
Other than he has never played outfield in his life, the main reason is he’s not fast enough. Delmon may look like he greases his spikes out there, but he can run.
Converting Morales back to 2B would be more in order.
Walter, this is not a football blog. Go to Access Vikings and make up a phony name. Like “Slinging Sammy Baugh”, he played for Washington too.
CPAMAN: This is not a golf blog LOL!
The ump gave Liriano a pretty clutch called third strike on his final pitch.
That was a no-doubter. Ump had to have someplace in the zone that was a strike.
I suppose someone should bring up the SI curse, so I’ll bite.
It’s been determined that it’s actually the SIB curse.
Shawn in Binghamton bought a Mauer authentic jersey that instigated the slump. He applied the same curse to Go-Go last year. There’s been some talk of banning him from the team store.
He is Livian Hernandez like with Ks. Oh wait Hernandez was better.”
Liriano has been bad but not that bad.
Livan had 10 wins in his pocket (and pitched well enough in most of those games to deserve the W) before he melted down.
Liriano has three wins and last night’s was a gift from the baseball gods. He’s worse, and it’s not even very close.
The comment on ’soft mental approach’ is one of the major factors in Liriano’s demise. Maybe he is having some kind of anxiety disorder — a sit down with a good sports psychologist might do wonders. He seems like he just doesn’t trust his stuff or his team to field the damn ball. Pitching to contact and trusting your defense is integral, although some of the melons he has left up on the plate just beg to be sent out of the park… but it seems like many times he is soft on the struggling batters and gets hammered as a result. He needs to get tough, nasty and vile. Like he used to be… I know there is no going back to that magical season, but he seems to lost so often. When a pitcher falls apart with one or two men on, something more than mechanics is at play.
And what is the deal with all the batters that have one or no home runs and this pitching staff seems intent on serving up the gopher ball to them? I mean didn’t Slowey do that last time out? And then there is the stat that comes up all too often how a long list of batters have done their best hitting against the Twins -Griffey, Jr., Thome, the list goes on… and this is on a team that is known traditionally for its pitching! Not to mention the pitchers that have their best record pitching against the Twinkies… Buerhle comes to mind, but there are many others…
But Frankie does need some kind of special attention to snap him back into consistency. This crap is getting old! There have been posts about different players being resistant to changes offered by the coaching staff - Delmon, Gomez,maybe Frankie — whatever happened to benching until you listen? Or fines for bone headed moves on the field or batters box? I think these guys are way too coddled…. everyone needs to toughen up… its the Big Leagues, for cryin out loud!!!
Why are people so convinced that Jose Morales is so good? I see him a .270 BA and .630 OPS guy, below average behind the plate, an adequate placeholder next year until Ramos or someone else emerges. Converting him to 2B or OF to get him regular time? Because you extrapolate his AAA numbers? I’m not buying into that kind of wishful thinking. Granted, he’s more fun to watch than Redmond, but those who think his defensive shortcomings don’t overcome his offensive advantage over Redmond may have a point.
Howard the fact that your a Cutler fan makes me lose all respect for you
shaun,
I probably would use the name “Sammy Baugh” if I was going to post on a football blog.
BTW, please list all the regulars here who DON”T use a phony name.
Who about a little perspective here:
At this point, Liriano is at best the Twins’ fourth starter behind Slowey, Baker and Blackburn.
How many teams do you know who have a better fourth or fifth starter?
bop, where do you get .630 OPS for Morales? His career minor league OPS is .707.
elwaypuckett,
It’s like being an American. My quarterback, right or wrong.
Now, back to baseball.
Career minor league OPS is not a great indicator of success for many reasons. Cases in point: Denard Span has a career .715 MiLB OPS and Doug Deeds (remember him?) a career .841 MiLB OPS.
Okay - his career AAA OPS is .751.
Just wondering where bop was getting his numbers from.
I agree with you about that not being a good measure of success. But Morales is clearly a better hitter than bop is giving him credit for.
I apologize is this has been stated, but I do agree that the UMP had a pretty tight zone last night for both pitchers, the Twins were just more agressive then the Brewers. I do feel the heat and humidity had a play in something, you know its hot when they are toweling down players. I think Liriano need to prove it next outing or we go in a different direction. But I don’t think he is the problem child, I still don’t trust PERKINS!!!
“bop, where do you get .630 OPS for Morales?”
Benny, I’m just throwing out numbers I guess are a greater liklihood for him as a big leaguer. The point is, I see Morales as more likely to be a forgettable backup catcher, for a short period of time, for the Twins. What I’m sensing is that there are people out there thinking he’s a Molina or Barajas type. I’m just guessing that he’ll be looked upon more as a Henry Blanco or Javier Valentin type when all is said and done.
“But Morales is clearly a better hitter than bop is giving him credit for.”
Benny, your guess is as good as mine, and I hope you’re right.
I’m just guessing that he’ll be looked upon more as a Henry Blanco or Javier Valentin type when all is said and done.
Maybe, but he could be a Brian Harper type of guy (both on defense and offense; Harper’s career line: .295/.329/.419; .748 OPS) which is great for a back up catcher for 2-3 years. Ramos will not be ready until 2011-2012.
Liriano has always walked too many guys. You can’t consistantly allow nearly a walk per inning and expect to have a lot of success. His strikeout rate is still good, he just needs to locate better.
“Maybe, but he [Morales] could be a Brian Harper type of guy (both on defense and offense;”
thrylos, your guess is as good as Benny’s or mine, and I hope you’re right.
Is anyone else (maybe just me?) noticing that it’s almost getting to be a joke to listen to Blyleven? There are times where he might go a minute or two without saying a thing and Dick will just go on talking….I was thinking it’s because Dick just wants to talk and talk but last night he kept trying to get Bert into the act and he wouldn’t talk. Bring Jack M. or Gladden in….Hey Bert, circle on outta here.
The question about Liriano should be;
What happened to him since the second half of last year?
When the team finally did bring him back from AAA in ‘08 (which, by the way, could have very well have cost the Twins another division title and play-off berth) he seemed to be a man on a mission to prove that he still had game.
This year, he seems more like a man on a mission to drive Gardy nuts…
Cisco’s biggest problem is that he doesn’t know what his biggest problem is! You can see it when he’s out there on the mound. The location obviously affects the consistency of his innings but as others have said, he seems to be more lax with poor hitters and more determined with good hitters. Very bizarre. Was is McCutchen for the Bucs that blasted one off him the other day? That guy hadn’t hit a homer all year (again correct me if i am thinking of the wrong player).
How come no one on this thread has brought up games on June 5 and 10, when the lack of offensive support (and lack of relief support) negated excellent pitching performances by Liriano. This young man struggles early in the season. I think he’s righted himself. Look at his June numbers in toto. Last night was the aberration and, for once, he won anyway.
“It’s frustrating to watch and seems like a reward for mediocrity…”
this sums up very well what watching/following this team has been like.
If people want to make last night’s game a make-or-break performance for Liriano, I think they should wait another start. That was a weird game on both sides of the diamond.
“How come no one on this thread has brought up games on June 5 and 10, when the lack of offensive support (and lack of relief support) negated excellent pitching performances by Liriano.”
Jake, the reason is that would be contrary to the popular opinion of the moment that Liriano needs to be sent down and / or demoted to the bullpen.
What you have to understand is, unless you’re an impeccable personality like Michael Cuddyer or Nick Punto, your spot can be parted with by the Twins and thus, a handful of blemishes on one’s portfolio, if cited enough by the fans, can directly lead to action.
The only surprising thing, for me, is that Jessie Crain does not have an impeccable personality, apparently.
to add to my 1:02 post…
That’s what frustrated me about Dick and Bert’s conversation about Ayala last night. It’s almost as if it’s not good enough to say “he wasn’t performing, thus, he had to be replaced / let go / demoted”. Instead the Twins need to find other reasons….(i.e. his head wasn’t in the game, his attitude needed adjusting, he wasn’t a ‘team guy’, his work ethic wasn’t the best, he didn’t respond to coaching…etc).
Look, all that needs to be said is he wasn’t cutting it and the team felt it was time to move on. Why isn’t this good enough? There’s no need to supplement the record with a lot of ancillary reasons.
It’s frustrating because it ends up happening in reverse when guys like Cuddyer or Punto struggle–their continued presence in the lineup is justified because they score well in these ancillary areas.
Jake, it’s a lot easier to remember 8 losses than 3 wins.
In short, that’s why my favorite 220 username is ‘mike wants wins’ (although “Crain would look good in a National’s uniform” is a close second)…
I’m not overly concerned if a player is nice, battles his tail off, is fun in the clubhouse, or is easily coachable. What I do care about is winning (without cheating).
new topic: better porn name; Brian “the bush man” buscher or R.A. Dickey?
It’s been 3 long years since liriano pitched effectively and physical issues prevent him from ever doing that again. It’s pretty simple: he gives this team no chance to win every time out. Why keep running him out there at the expense of an already shaky and overused bullpen that will be needed more in the “title chase” than this one guy??
I followed your thesis until the part about Swarzak. This team has NEVER been good enough to ever refer to it as “in a title chase.”
As soon as one team in this division started playing somewhat above average (Detroit) they easily pulled away from the floundering Twins.
The starting pitching, bullpen, middle infield, clutch hitting, defense, and bench are the only things standing in the way of the Twins and a “title chase.”
This roster needs an upgrade before next year. I don’t even think they are underacheiving at this point. They are an average team playing average baseball. Nothing more and nothing less.
“He threw 117 pitches in five innings. That’s hard to do.”
You mean that’s hard to do, well. I would not say that Liriano threw 117 pitches well in those five innings very well.
savvyspy, I somewhat agree that right now we have no business being mentioned in teh same article as the phrase “title chase.” However, the fact of the matter is we are in second place and look better right now that the rest of the teams in the Central, which is not saying much for our division but nonetheless. We always seem to have Detroits number too, whether at home or away so in many ways we are in a title chase and look like we can contend.
Right, savvy. We have the best record ever in interdivision play and we are splitting series with .500 NL teams. Maybe we’re not who we think we are.
I get tired of Liriano saying that his problems are mechanical; they’re entirely mental. He’s making poor pitch choices and leaving the ball up. This is evident if you watch him throw, and the numbers back it up. Comparing Liriano’s numbers in 2008 to his 2009 numbers reveals some interesting stuff…games started, innings pitched, walks, strikeouts, hits, HRs, and runs are nearly identical; he most noticeable difference is his ERA being much, much higher this year. The reason every other stat is almost identical to last year, yet his ERA is up dramatically is because he’s allowed almost twice as many doubles this year. Guys are hitting Liriano A LOT harder this year than before…to me, that says that he’s making the wrong pitches. He’s not walking more batters or fanning less–they’re just crushing the ball because his fastball is junk and he’s leaving it up over the plate. If I were Rick Anderson, I’d be hounding Liriano 24×7 about keeping the ball down…if he does, I’ll bet that he’d dramatically improve.
Good name, Tampa “Ray” Bays, I like that!
Toronto “Jay” Blues
Las “Angel” Angeles
San “Padre” Diegos
Boston “Red” Socks
Saint “Louis” Cardinals
San “Francisco” Giants
and finally………
Philadelphia “Phillie”
Florida “Marlin”
Shaun, don’t thank me thank Mike Ditka for that one! He kept saying Tampa Ray Bays on Mike and Mike
fittobetied:
It’s not Bert’s failure to talk that’s getting to me, it’s that he seems to say the same things every night.
“He just got under it a little bit”.
“He did not miss it”.
“Everything keys off the fastball”.
etc.
These things may be true, but he really needs to rephrase them somehow. They are becoming annoying to me, like certain commercials that seemingly run 500 times per game.
I have ripped Gardenhire in the past for his handling of the pitching staff, so I should admit that i was impressed that he stuck by Liriano last night to get through that 5th inning. I thought was great.
That being said, why is Liriano affriad to throw his fastball? That may be the most frustrating part of all this. He gets behind in the count by throwing slider after slider. Just throw the heater and let the hitters put the ball in play.
I would also like to see Gardy try starting Morales at catcher when Liriano pitches. This is certainly not a knock on Mauer, but maybe being being hablo espanol out there would help him relax. Anything is worth a try at this point. Otherwise, perhaps he and Dickey should switch roles.
Is there a reason most of the contributors here seem to share the mind-set that winning the AL Central and then “1 and done” is a good season? Coming close is enough to get the MinneSAPlis taxpayers to pony up for a new stadium so why actually set high goals and expectations?
As soon as one team in this division started playing somewhat above average (Detroit) they easily pulled away from the floundering Twins.
That is the same Detroit team who lost two of three to Pittsburgh not too long ago and the same Detroit team that is 0-3 against the Twins in their head-to-head match-ups.
Four games is weekend or so of good baseball, it certainly does not qualify as “pulling away.”
Baseball is a funny game sometimes. Had the Twins just won one more of the two games they lost against the Astros (who may be the best team in the NL Central), the perspective changes significantly.
Oh, brudder. Why was DIT-ka talking about baseball? He coached Da Bearss then had anudder heart attack.
Fran - kind of hard to call Houston the best team in the NL Central when they are in 5th place and have one of the worst run differentials in all of baseball.
Dickey has been super valuable out of the pen but I am starting to wonder if he couldn’t go every fifth day and be more valuable as a starter. Let Liriano be our long relief man for a while!
Fran,
I don’t mean to be anal, but we split a two game series in Detroit in the first month two…so it would be 1-4 against the Twins I believe.
two…should be too
A note about Guerrier. He has an 0.00 ERA on the road - - no doubt because he gives up OTHER PITCHERS runners, thereby inflating THEIR ERA’s!
Dale,
I doubt that as he has only given up 5 hits on the road and only one for extra bases.
I’m sure that he has allowed some Inherited runners to score on the road, but I bet it is alot less than you think.
Is there a website that tracks inherited runners?
It’s been 3 long years since liriano pitched effectively
Last year, he was 10-2 at Rochester with a 3.28 ERA, 113 SO and 31 BBs in 118 innings. After being called up, he was 6-1 with a 2.74 ERA with 60 SOs and 17 BBs in 67 innings. I’d say he was an effective pitcher last year.
What’s different this year? Unlike last year, he has sometimes had nasty stuff in the bullpen. This leads to his thinking that his stuff is all the way back, so he still tries to overthrow.
Some of the time, he get’s back into a good groove and pitches like he did last year, when he knew he couldn’t just blow people away regardless of the location of his pitches. Three out of his last four starts have been like that. The lone exception was last night, after his bullpen catcher said his stuff was “nasty”.
I posted this on Joe C’s. Should have posted it here:
Liriano struck out Hart IMO in the 1st for the 3rd out, but Hart was given the BB instead. As a result, the Brewers got 2 of their 3 runs. And you could see the reaction on Liriano’s face.
A civil reaction, not whining or anger. But it lasted for quite a while. An attitude. Liriano didn’t need that bad luck.
I’m sure he was feeling “Here it comes again” — a minor yet constant version of being shell-shocked. And so it’s been going like this all season.
He has the best stuff on the staff. It’s not his fault he’s going through this re-learning project, and bad luck isn’t his fault.
I am not a Liriano basher, and I don’t think he is a head case. But akin to that, I think he’s in a constant state of frustration beyond the normal course of competitive events in this game we call baseball.
So, now I am relenting and believe it’s time for the BP for him. Not as a demotion, but rather as a gift/opportunity for him to relax and turn the corner.
The time has come. It didn’t have to. If he had gotten that strike out, he may very well have cruised through 7. And that’s the good news — he’s very close to getting it together.
But any little thing of non-performance or bad luck uniquely sets him back miles rather than inches, because of this season’s experience.
Perfect candidate for a BP reset.
And yes, his pitching was all over the place last night. But he showed why he is definitely not a AAA candidate because of his outstanding marathon struggle last night. Might be the most outstanding performance — against all odds — this season for the Twins.
But, too many marathons this year for him. Let him do some sprinting in the BP.
Missing in the hypotheticals on this thread is the likely potential of one of the other four starters being injured or losing their stuff. Swarzak and Dickey are available to start and I wouldn’t be surprised if that is the logic. Like it or not, we need Liriano to stay right where he is and get better. Tis a long season. I do not have the time to get the names and dates, but has the starting five ever remained that at the end of a season?
This site indicates that Guerrier’s 9/27 in allowing inherited runners to score. Basbeall-Reference give his home/away splits. But there is no reference that logs what proportion of the 9 inherited runners scored on the road. My guess is if he’s only given up 5 hits on the road, not many.
Remembering what FL was before the surgery: wicked, wicked slider and lots of velocity. He didn’t have to worry about nipping the plate. Now he does. So, the bottom line is will he ever return to form, or are we stuck with a guy perpetually learning how to be a control pitcher (from a more advanced age than most). Give him another year and we will see if he get’s any more arm back. Still, it makes one wonder if he really rared back and fired it hard what the arm is capable of even now.
Someone mentioned that Liriano had good stuff his last couple of starts with nothing to show for it, specificially naming his starts on June 5, and June 10 - I’ll give you June 5 - one run in six innings is good, but 3 runs in 6 is hardly good. Yes it’s a “quality start,” but that stat is garbage. Besides, he’s not throwing strikes, especially not with his slider. If you know, as a hitter, to not swing at a slider because you know it’ll be a ball, it makes your timing easier, and you get hits easier.
“If you know, as a hitter, to not swing at a slider because you know it’ll be a ball, it makes your timing easier, and you get hits easier.”
A hitter who is able to differentiate a slider from a fastball early enough, should NEVER swing at a good slider in ANY location until he has a two strike count.
The differentiating part, is usually the problem.
Besides, he’s not throwing strikes, especially not with his slider. If you know, as a hitter, to not swing at a slider because you know it’ll be a ball, it makes your timing easier, and you get hits easier.
Last night, Liriano threw 62.86% of his sliders , 64.29% of his two-seamers, 56.41% of his four-seamers and 33.33% of his change ups for strikes. The slider was not that much of a problem as was the fastball and change. And laying off a hard slider is much easier said than done…
To put Liriano’s numbers into perspective, in his complete game shutout of the Pirates, Blackburn threw his slider 63.64% of time and his curve 33% of the time for strikes. His four-seamer was a strike 66.00% and his two-seamer 64.71%. Not that different on the off-speed stuff, but that extra 10% on the fastball helps.
1. I think team chemistry and attitude does matter. I don’t think we want stars with troubled attitudes. Every time Milton Bradley throws a one-out flyball into the stands, it hurts the team. I’m not saying the Twins have “wa”, the Japanese team obsession. But we do win on team dynamics because we simply cannot get the top to bottom talent to compete in the majors. It is not mathematically/economically possible. So Jason, I actually disagree. Winning, for us, comes from coachability.
2. Mind you, I’m a little tired of Bremer finding every excuse in the world for our play and for certain players. I’m not a cynic. I’m somewhere between a skeptic and a fan — let’s call it a realist. I wish Bremer would learn to call things as they are. How could anyone on the microphone stand by what Jesse Crain was throwing over the plate (same speed, no movement, insufficient pitch mix).
3. What I want from Bert is more about pitching mechanices. Useful stuff about Scott Baker not bending on delivery enough. Blyleven is a Hall of Fame talent. He can pick apart Twins and opposing pitchers to explain why two guys can throw the ball 92MPH and get such different results. The Twins announcers need to recognize that 90% of their viewers are repeat viewers. Teach more. What a complete gift we have to have Blyleven on the microphone. Use it to teach. (I can bear a little of the pick-the-stick nonsense; but focus on unique insights and fair/honest reads on our players and play.)
4. Thrylos, thanks for the numbers. Love those. Can you imagine if fans were taught how to follow the game, with stats that really give insight. There are so many fascinating aspects of the game. I think if you put the numbers together with Blyleven’s insights on mechanics, you’ll get a much clearer picture of what’s happening with Liriano. I actually think there is a mechanical problem there more than a mental one (willing to say it could be some of both). But Bly’s insight plus relevant numbers on screen…and we can all follow the game like the geniuses we aim to be here at the end of Howard’s columns!
T-Mouse in the house
The guy gave up three runs, lasted to the fifth kind of got his stuff together, opps not quite. What more do you want?
