Something more to feel gloomy about
Posted on June 30th, 2009 – 6:54 AMBy Howard
There’s no shortage of words and thoughts floating around about how poorly the Twins played last night against the Royals — clueless at-bats, T-ball defense, a silly ejection argument. I know this isn’t the case, but it almost looked like the consecutive full-count home runs that Nick Blackburn gave up came on “what-the-hey” pitches — as in: What they hey. If you guys are gonna swing the bats like that and I’m gonna get squeezed on some pitches, then let’s just throw it and see what happens.
So, while we’re feeling good and sour about the game, let me pile on with a look at what the Twins haven’t taken advantage of in the last couple pf weeks, despite the general consensus that they seem to have found their way when playing on the road.
It’s the starting pitchers they haven’t faced and aren’t facing:
*In Milwaukee last week, the Twins missed Brewers ace Yovani Gallardo (8-4, 2.86), who is averaging more than a strikeout per inning and has an ERA more than two runs better than any of their other starters.
*Against St. Louis, they didn’t face ace Chris Carpenter (5-2, 1.78), who had pitched the day before against the Mets and is pitching tonight against the Giants.
*For the second time this season, Zack Greinke (10-3, 1.95) doesn’t have his turn in the rotation coming up against the Twins. Instead, the Twins are facing three pitchers whose numbers look good mainly when compared to Sidney (1-5, 7.27) Ponson.
*And, for good measure, Detroit ace Justin Verlander (8-3, 3.40) is pitching in Oakland on Wednesday, which means he won’t face the Twins this weekend at the Metrodome.
Of course, the Tigers are giving Lucas French his first major league start on Friday night, which will allow us to hear more blah-blah-blah about facing unfamiliar pitchers. When you start hearing that stuff, cover your ears and keep in mind who the Twins haven’t been facing lately.
262 Responses to "Something more to feel gloomy about"
Howard-why was the ejection silly? It looked like the ball Kubel hit went off of his shoe and sure sounded like it did. Gardy has a right to ask for an appeal, doesn’t he? If so, the home plate umpire should’ve given it to him. I have no idea why he wouldn’t. Either way, it seemed lik a fair request and the umpire wasn’t giving a legit reason, so Gardy got tossed.
As for the pitchers they’re facing, I’m getting so sick of the Twins claiming the opposing pitchers are just hitting their spots. I totally agree with your thoughts. While this road trip has been an improvement, they should be doing even better than they have been.
is anyone really surprised the Twin’s have bounced around .500 all year?
this is a .500 team, fortunately Twin’s play in the worst division in MLB which allows them to still contend for a playoff spot
Wow, that really does suck the Twins haven’t taken advantage of all the mediocre starting pitching. Mauer and Morneau: a combined 16 for 80 since June 17th: a .200 average. It was good to win two road series in Milwaukee and St. Louis, but with the way things are going the Tigers might have a pretty comfortable lead by the all star break. Baker will dominate the Royals tonight.
Worst Division in the Majors?!?! I believe that the NL West has that crown. This year they have 1 good team (the Dodgers), but many of the past years the team winning that division has been barely over .500
Right Jed. White Sox moved ahead of us in the standings today, one less loss is the reason. Not really that far behind Detroit, and no one in baseball but the Dodgers has a real outstanding record. We split with KC, then sweep Detroit we’ll be in pretty good shape though.
I missed the game last night. Did Harris really try to bunt Span to second in the first inning?
Howard, that really wasn’t a silly ejection argument. Gardy just wanted Vanover to ask the third base ump. That’s all he wanted! Nothing else. And he wouldn’t do it, the snot. What was funny was after the ejection another ump came over and ragged on Gardy also and, I think, ejected him again.
I agree that we should have done much better last night against KC but if we can take the next two and then win against Detroit we will still be in it. The thing that gripes me the most is how we just appear like such a weak hitting team against these no name pitchers and then the virus spreads to the fielding and throwing and everything is a mess. I think if I would have been Gardy last night I wouldn’t have gotten thrown out of the game but rather save my wrath for my players who stunk up the field in so many ways. I think he could have pretty much ripped everyone on the team for swinging at not so great pitches and what’s with Mauer swinging at the first pitch when we have two guys on; why not try to work out a walk and then when Morneau hits his home run we score 4 instead of 2. We get a sniff at 500 and just can’t stand prosperity and pull another clunker of a game out of our arse. I’m done ranting now but last night’s game was UGLY!!!!!!!
Benny:
That is correct. Check LaVelle’s last blog at 7:12 the short comments are kind of funny.
Jeez… swing the bat, take a walk, steal a base, but be aggressive. That just sets the tone for a bad offensive performance when you’re giving away outs in the top of the first.
Brew, Shaun:
This may be a minority argument, but I think most ejections are silly, staged and bad theater. This one fell under that category. Ump blew the call. Deal with it, skip.
Well, it didn’t seem so bad at the time. KC probably wasn’t expecting it either and if he makes it we got something started right out of the gate and Hochevar is a nobody we could have got to him early. Things went downhill after that though.
I’m with you Howard, that was my first thought when he charged out of the dugout, this looks like it’s for show.
last 2 1/2 years (good sample size) the twins are;
169-180 against the al.
37-17 against the nl.
they’re done with the nl for the season, not a good sign. it’s to bad we play in the al, but lucky we play in the central.
Re-”Garding” the ejection. It seemed obvious to me, but i guess not to everybody. As soon as Gardy came out calmy to question the call, I KNEW this was one of those times that Gardy would stay out there and work himself into an intentional frenzy until he got ejected. One of those times he was just trying to do something - anything - to get the boys to shake off the groug hangovers and wake up. Didn’t work, but he tried, sometimes it does. I called it as soon as he stepped on the field. (Unless the pregame corn dogs were simply not disgesting well)
“digesting”
I expected Howard’s headline today to read: “We now return to our regularly scheduled programming”
Yeah last night was a buzzkill…we let a rookie beat us. We found out just how feeble our offense is when Mauer and Morneau don’t hit (Morneau’s late 2-run HR notwithstanding, of course). The bottom feeders acted like bottom feeders. Span’s average has dipped below .280. D Young continues to shake heads and Go-Go continues to read the stock reports in the business section during the game…
I know you guys are going to hate this, but here I go again: To the powers that be, please, do something about the second base situation. It’s a three-spot hole. You have a utility player starting–and he will sink our ship, folks, and you have two of biggest question marks of all time backing the infield up. I went into this season a Matt Tolbert fan, but now I realize we owe Denny Hocking a debt of gratitude. As for Buscher, I’ll let the rest of you handle the poetry of his discretions.
We can live with average outfielders and an average shortstop because we have an above average catcher and first baseman…we cannot live with utter mediocrity at second base and on the bench.
So for the sake of the team, those of you in 220 and Twins Nation who have been Punto backers, please, write your Congressman and tell them you’ve had a change of heart. I promise, if you do that, I won’t even make fun of you for wearing a Punto jersey to the game…I understand it when a player inspires you personally, I have no qualms about that…but this is for the greater good, folks.
What’s funny is our thirty nine wins would lead the NL East. Same as the World Champ Phils.
I thought I clearly saw the third base ump mouth: “If I saw it foul, I would’ve called it right away”…meaning, he didn’t need Vanover to ask him for help on the play.
I loved how Vanover ejected Gardy…calmly, almost as if to say, ‘this is really silly…I don’t want to eject you, but I can see you think it will fire up your team…which is also pretty silly…okay, take a hike then’
my apologies to Denard Span, who is hitting .281.
Announcing you won’t hear (dedicated to Jason)
Dick: “Here comes Brian Buscher to the plate. He’s been struggling this season with a .198 average…”
Bert: “But many people don’t notice that because they’re not getting past the fact that his defense is not suited for the major-league level.”
funny stuff, Eric. Actually, what we heard last night during Buscher’s first at-bat is how he is always ready to go before games even if he’s not expected to be in the starting lineup. It was an odd reference, something to the effect of “you always see him hanging out in the dugout before games” (as opposed to being in the clubhouse playing Texas Hold’Em, I guess).
It would be funny if there were such a thing as a bench player that wasn’t always ready to go.
Gardy - “Busch-Dog, Credesie’s got a back owie. We need you to be our 3-sacker tonight.”
Buscher - “Ah, I don’t feel like it tonight, Gardy.”
Why is Delmon Young in the starting lineup, let alone on the team? He does not deserve/belong here. His only hit last night was lucky, got a piece of a slider that didn’t quite get off the plate and chopped through. Looked awful in the field, as usual. Just make Kubs the starting left fielder for !@#$s sake. Then use the DH for giving guys off days, or even that .350 hitter rotting on the bench could even DH.
Also, I like Buscher, but that last atbat last night was unforgiving, he needs to go back to AAA. He didn’t even run to 1st after he stuck out, and he knew the ball hit the dirt.
Jason: I’d like to see 2nd base fixed too. Problem is, we have absolutely nothing to offer to other teams in trade. The depth of our minor league system is gone. We have exactly one starting pitcher that will be ready to start in MLB by 2011 (Swarzak). All relief canidates are needed here. No legit infield prospects. The only real possibility is one of the young CF’s (Hicks, Revere). We aren’t going to get gold for the garbage we have right now.
so where does that leave us lefty….at .500? Do we need to accept that?
Im not kidding, I KNEW Gardy was going for the trumped-up ejection the second he stepped out and I was LISTENING to the KC radio broadcast on-line! Sometimes it is may too obvious. And you’ll notice those ones usually dont provide the intended result: firing up the team.
Adam, Buschy is ready to go BEFORE the game. Late in the game, he’s ready to go back to the hotel.
Howard,
I love that you went after this team and the fact that they have been playing .500 baseball while NOT facing teams best pitchers. It is further proof that this team seems destined to juggle a .500 record all year.
I haven’t heard a lot of talk/rumors about trying to upgrade at 2nd Base. This has been the biggest hole all year. I know there isn’t a Mark DeRosa type player(can play ANYWHERE) waiting to get traded, but who do you think are REALISTIC options for the Twins to get in hopes of finding a player who can contribute at 2nd Base.
Just looking at the big picture: For this year, any improvement needs to come from within. Might be time to look to triple A and see if any of the imperfect solutions can offer a little more than Buscher or Tolbert
More wishful announcing, that was funny.
Dick: “It was raining again last night when I got home, so there I was in the driveway in my suit and tie filling my bait-bucket with nightcrawlers at 2am.”
Bert: “Instead of eating them this time, I suggest we put a couple buckets of worms at second and third base - can’t do any worse than the production we get now.”
There’s pretty limited options out there even in the remote likelihood that the Twins are looking for help. The problem is that too many teams are within shouting distance of contention (like the Twins) and that leaves very few teams willing to be “sellers” this early.
Maybe over the next 3 weeks there will be more separation. Of course, that also leaves time for the Twins to fall, as well, making them candidates to “sell” instead of “buy”.
Howard, must you give the eternal pessimists ’something more to feel gloomy about’?
They whine, win or lose. No invitation necessary. I assume you want readers for your blog. I guarantee this broken-record melodrama drives away far more readers than it attracts.
Jason, you despise Punto. T98 doesn’t like Cuddyer. ‘Fire’ wears sentiments on his sleeve. Etc. We get it. It’s trite. It’s redundant. It’s annoying as heck. Stick a bertin’ cork in it already.
JC, I totally agree. I doubt there will be any impact players available that would make sense for the club to deal for. There just aren’t a whole lot of sellers, which drives the price up for whatever talent is available. My biggest hope is that Liriano gets it going and that will ignite the club.
I said it last week and Souhan nailed it with his column today.Yes folks,this does look like a .500 ballclub.
For those curious as to why Delmon or LNP are in the lineup,the sad question is,who else do you put in there? Sure Gomez can play CF.But a weeks worth of horrible at bats and most would be clamoring for DY.Tolbert looks to have even less talent than Punto,and thats saying alot.
No one expected the M&M boys to continue at their paces,but the rest of the lineup doesn’t seem capable of any sustained success.On top of that the Twins have become a slow plodding station to station team.The manager admitted as much the other day.And we haven’t even talked about a bullpen that now seems only four men deep.
I agree that there doesn’t appear to be much ready help at the top minor league level.So all that seems possible is a trade.And unless someone lights a serious fire under this team(and it will take more than Gardinhires theatrics)my prediction is that the Twins will be sellers instead of buyers come the trade deadline.
Again,I hope I’m wrong.
Ugly ugly game. Only 1 of 78, though, so still half a season left. The Twins have been a .500 team SO FAR, but despair is not yet warranted. If the Twins aren’t going to make an external move though, they should just throw Cuddy at 2nd, get Young/Gomez their PAs and find out what they’ve got. Gomez is no worse than Punto in the lineup and Span is not the same caliber CF as he is corner OF so the defense will be better.
I like Gardy, but the picture of him arguing (see link below) is pathetic.
The umpire appears to be disgusted as he watches an un-funny clown give a pathetic performance.
Awful!
JC & Boneyard,
I don’t necessarily think this teams needs a “impact player” in order to improve. This teams lack of production at 2nd base can be improved by adding ANY player. Find someone who bats .260 and can play defense and this team improves. Heck, rent a Felipe Lopez or Brian Roberts type player and send a message to the rest of the players that it’s time to step on it.
Look, over the course of a season, every team is going to lay a few eggs. Last night, was one giant egg.
It’s good to see Morneau starting to get his timing back. Mauer needs to do the same (but let’s face it, he wasn’t going to go the year without a slump).
It was certainly one of the worst efforts in the field I’ve seen all year (I honestly don’t know what the heck Young and Span were doing out there in LCF all night). The bunt by Harris in the first inning was boneheaded.
Yet it was still just one game. Let’s see if things get corrected tonight. The next two games plus the 9 game homestand coming up will determine if the Twins have any shot at contending.
OB: Plan sounds good in theory, but that would be one of the worst defensive middle infields of all time.
Cobber, I would say a Brian Roberts type player would constitute an “impact player” for this team.
Pro: Who are we going to sell? Most of the club’s big contracts are guys the club needs to keep (Mauer, Morneau, Baker, etc.). Maybe Cuddyer is worth someting o the market, but probably not a whole lot even though he is having a much better year than last year. Crede might be a rental candidate for someone but again, ow much would he fetch? Kubel probably has a lot value on the trade market (I’m sure the Cubs would love to have him), but does it really make sense for the Twins to trade him, particularly since he doesn’t cost all that much next year? Nathan would probably also bring a haul as well as cost savings, but again, I’m nost sure how much sense that really makes. I’d love to get rid of Punto for a bucekt of bating practice balls, but there probably won’t e any takers.
I guess I’m just not in the panic mode yet. It’s not like the Tigers or the Sox are running away and hiding. The rotation hasn’t been as good as expected but they may still turn it around and that may be this team’s salvation. The bullpen and middle infield? Oy. Not much hope there. But again, what fixes are really available on the trade market?
sid,
I agree that picture was bad. And for the ones who wonder whether the ejection was staged, just look at where Gardy is looking. Kinda interesting that he is arguing with the ump while looking at the camera, don’t ya think?
Yes indeed, Jim, the AL central is not the AL east, all hope need not be lost. One good two week stretch where the pitching AND the hitting come together and the Twins are 10 games over .500. Not inconceivable.
Worst Division in the Majors?!?! I believe that the NL West has that crown. This year they have 1 good team (the Dodgers)
Last time I looked, they have 3 teams over .500 and the first 2 (Dodgers, Giants) have the best 2 records in the NL, while the Dodgers have the best record in baseball…
Right Jim C. We need to separate Young and Span. Dick called them Ball Hogs. Put Gomez between them.
That middle IF range would be brutal lefty. Agreed. But the current OF range is nearly as brutal. Span in LF and Go-Go in CF would improve that.
JC, True. BR would be an “impact player”. My point was simply that ANY player would be an upgrade, but a BR or FL type player would send a message.
I would be SHOCKED if they added a BR or FL type player, but I would also be seriously disappointed if they don’t try something to fix their 2nd Base hole.
“It’s not like the Tigers or the Sox are running away and hiding.”
This just in!
The Tigers are “running away and hiding.” (8-3 in last 11 games includind a 7-game win streak)
This just in! The Tigers are 4 games up in the central with half a season left.
Yes, sid. And the White Sox passed us in the standings. Might be making a “run”.
Cobber, fair point about not necessarily needing an impact player, just maybe someone adequate. However, I agree with JC that Roberts would constitute an impact player in this case. Plus, I don’t think the Orioles are going go let him go for Tolbert and some AA reliever. Given the dearth of sellers on the market right now, I’m guessing a merely adequate player might be too rich for Bill Smith’s blood. Any thoughts?
“Stick a bertin’ cork in it already.”
Fran must be a Cubs fan…forever content with losing.
I’ve seen nothing to believe this team has a significant run in them. Something’s got to happen to get them kickstarted because this muddling around .500 business isn’t going to cut it.
If the Twins want an impact player, they have to give up a true talent. Think: Revere, Dinkelman, Gutierrez. Someone like that will need to be the centerpiece.
You guys are barking about Span and D Young’s outfield play last night…if memory serves me, Young made a nice running catch at one point and it was Cuddyer who threw a ball to no man’s land, costing us a run.
I didn’t see the game Jason, but is Souhan’s account correct? It sounded like the whole OF was a travesty last night.
Boneyard, Bill Smith has done nothing but sign 1 free agent to help this team. If he does nothing to address their most glaring hole Im going to jump on the fire Billy bandwagon. Throw Casilla, Tolbert, and some others into a trade.
I’m fine with these sorts of discussions about how/if the team could be improved. It’s fair to point out shortcomings, whether individual or team.
What I don’t have any interest in are the daily whinings that pop up virtually every night when Joe/LaVelle post the lineups. No, they aren’t any worse than they were at the beginning of April, but 3 months of the same thing every day have made them tiresome so I tend to just ignore the comment sections of their blogs once they post lineups.
Since Roberts was mentioned though, I think he’s an interesting case. The O’s are notoriously tough negotiators but since they seem to always be looking 2-3 years up the road, they may be the type of team that would be a potential trading partner. The Twins minor league depth seems to be in that AA level right now, so maybe there are some guys there that would make a deal possible.
Not that the Twins would… you know… actually MAKE a mid-season trade.
The bloggers who complain so much about the complainers are becoming as extreme as those about whom they complain. And it gets just as tiresome.
Yes OB, the OF was F.U.
Cuddy couldn’t decide if he should throw to second or third so he threw a “tweener” that rolled all the way back to St. Louis. But Delmon and Denard are ball hogs.
sid, the Tigers aren’t going to play .727 baseball the rest of the way. I agree the Twins haven’t exactly shown signs of greatness, but it’s only 4 games with 80 something to go.
JC & Boneyard,
I doubt anything like this will happen, but it would be nice to see Billy go out and find a Shannon Stewart type player. A mid-season trade that sends a message and gives the team the option to keep the player for the future. This team needs to solidify a weak position by adding a proven player and not depend on a player developing.
OB
The whole outfield wasn’t a travesty last night. Delmon made a couple of good catches and Span did as well (but I think Gomez would have gotten to that ball hit late in the game that went in for a double). The problem was that DY and Span had some communication problems but it didn’t hurt us - the catch was made and the throw to the catcher was made and the runs didn’t score. However, Cuddyer made a routine catch and threw the ball into no man’s land missing both the cut off man and the third baseman - it was brutal and it did allow them to score the first run which turned out to be unearned. It just made me wonder if their heads were in the game last night and I put that right at Gardy’s feet - sometimes you need to light a fire under players to get them to concentrate and focus for 9 whole innings.
How about the guys who complain about the ones who complain about the complainers, rpar? Are they tiresome too?
Cobber, who wants Casilla and Tolbert? Anyone? Anyone?
Thanks Shaun and tMC. I am curious how the Twins will bounce back. Can embarassment light a fire under one’s a$$?
Dinkleman and Gutierez are hardly centerpieces of any trade discussion for an established major leager
I agree, Cobber. But what Shannon Stewart type player is out there and available?
Boneyard, EXACTLY! It was just an addition to your tolbert bash. It is laughable when people throw out the Delmon, Casilla, Crain GARBAGE player trades.
And about the .500 ball as of late. The last 14 days: Mauer = .220/.304/.341 and Morneau = 179/.313/.410. If the meat don’t hit, the team ain’t great. No way around that.
Crikket, your complainer observation reminded me of the Frank Burns line: “It’s nice to be nice to the nice.” I liked it.
I’m not generally in favor of making decisions based on a need to “send a message” or “shake things up”. I think those are as phony as managers who go out and get tossed to “fire up” their team.
But moves that first and foremost improve the team, and then also send a message (whether it be “see… none of you are guaranteed to be here tomorrow” or “we’re committed to winning THIS year”) are a different story altogether. Making a trade for, or promoting from the minors, another mediocre infielder or RP just to “send a message” would not only not help the team but wouldn’t even successfully communicate any message.
I’d give up Revere before Gutierrez lefty.
Shannon Stewart’s available.
But seriously, at the time of the Stewart trade, nobody was expecting him to do much. A lot of people thought Bobby Kielty was too much to give up.
Bone,
The Twins are a grand total of nine games over .500 the last 2 1/2 years.IMO the organization needs to take a hard look at what it considers to be its assets.
Cuddy,Crede,Guerrier,and anyone of the starting pitchers would bring value in return.And I’m talking young value.I’m not saying they need to trade all of those players,but why be happy with languishing around .500? I’d rather re build.
Simply put the front office has over valued its ML talent.And the high minor league cupboard looks pretty bare.Swarzak can fill starting spot and Valencia might be ready by the end of the year,but there is little else available that isn’t at least a couple years out.The Twins need to restock IMO.
And please spare me the “we should throw Casilla,Tolbert, etc. into a trade” nonsense.Those two in particular have practically played themselves of this mediocre team.Why would anyone else want them?
I like Freddy Sanchez, and I think he would really benefit in a lineup that could help protect him. Granted he would require the Twins to spend some money. I hope I don’t get struck down for suggesting an increase in our payroll.
Come on…..Bill Smith has to go, look at what the Yankees did today trade for Eric Hinske fora couple of minor leaguers…it’s obvious Buscher is over matched at the plate and barely average in the field we need a vetern utility player for the rest of the season…bringing up someone from the farm…managementneeds to send a message to the team and say HELP IS COMING…..come on Bill you can do better…
I’m not generally in favor of making decisions based on a need to “send a message” or “shake things up”. I think those are as phony as managers who go out and get tossed to “fire up” their team.
But some of them work:
Cases in point: 2009 Rockies, 2008 Mets.
“For the second time this season, Zack Greinke (10-3, 1.95) doesn’t have his turn in the rotation coming up against the Twins. Instead, the Twins are facing three pitchers whose numbers look good mainly when compared to Sidney (1-5, 7.27) Ponson.”
You know, it’s plenty nervy to go bagging on the Royals pitchers when the two guys we’re sending out next (Baker and Perkins) have worse numbers than their two (Bannister and Meche). So let’s not get too cocky here.
Cobber, I don’t think there’s any shortage of people here who would welcome a trade for Sanchez. Nor do many of us have any aversion to the Twins adding some payroll.
But then, it’s not our money. The Pirates, though, seem to usually want players immediately able to contribute at the major league level. That might make a deal more of a challenge. On the other hand, it doesn’t take a ton of talent to be considered “major league ready” in Pittsburg.
How much would it take to get Marco Scutaro from the Blue Jays?
I don’t know Jim, the Pirates took Gorkys Hernandez for McClouth. He’s AA and not ready for the majors (kinda like Go-Go). They’d want real talent for Sanchez, though. Their (relatively) new GM is no dummy.
Look,a lot can happen between now and the trade deadline.But as a fan I’d have more faith in the organization if come the deadline,they realized that the season is a flop,and try to improve long term.
Trading Cuddy,Crede,Shaggy,or say ANY one of the starters isn’t going to back break this team long term.The Twins need to realize where they are,find some better young talent and be ready to open up the purse come FA time next year.Hey,a guy can dream right?
Guilty, JC. That’s entertainment!
Depending on how the next month plays out, Pro, I agree. Although the three lefties in the lineup and the starting rotation should be off limits.
I agree with your ideas Pro From Dover, except for Crede. It’s taken us forever to find a viable third baseman and I know he has his injury issues but I’m hoping the Twins are cautious with him this year with the idea that he could be here for a while. I’m really hoping they sign him to a long term deal.
But yes, Cuddy and Guerrier…if you can get a great 2B in return or even some bullpen help, I say go for it. Carlos Gomez would also have high trade value one would think, but I’d hate to give up on him so early in his career with the chance he ends up taking off on someone else’s watch.
If he’s healthy at the trade deadline AND if the Twins have fallen out of contention, Crede will be traded.
The odds of him getting re-signed are very, very long and Valencia’s the heir apparent at 3B. He was intended as a one-year fix and if the season is a flop at the deadline, he’ll get dealt to a contender.
Fran, I’m assuming you’re not telling me that I should put a happy face on everything. Frankly, I’m surprised that I’m the first person (I think) who’s written about the Twins’ good fortune in regard to whom they’re not facing. If they’d won yesterday, it would have been a post about “one more fortunate thing” for the Twins.
glp, Your rebuke to me is lyrical — and has substance as well. Nicely worded. Ever wonder how the Section 220 community would react to a 4-7 pitcher (Gil Meche) in a middle year of a five-year, $55 million contract?
We get it. It’s trite. It’s redundant. It’s annoying as heck. Stick a bertin’ cork in it already.
Fran, does that include constantly demanding the starters simply pitch longer and better–as if wishing it so will make it happen–and all will be well?
We do not have the talent to make a deal, without crippling another part of the team. Cuddyer won’t be traded. Quit dreaming about it guys. It simply isn’t going to happen.
Only thing I see as possible, and its extremely thin possibility, is somebody really liking what they saw from Swarzak, or somebody being in love with the ghosts of Delmon Young’s or Liriano’s past. Pretty unlikely.
The solutions have to be in house. If they don’t come from there, the 2009 Twins are doomed to be a .500 team.
OB- I’m with you on the three J’s,but The Twins still need to lock up Joe!As far as the starting staff goes.I wound disagree to a point.IMO none of them is a bonified Ace,so I would listen to offers,but you’d need get a lot in return for any of them.
Jason-I’m a Crede backer,but I really don’t see the Twins resigning him.Unless Valencia really flops at AAA I’d bet he has the inside track at 3B next year.
I’d love to agree with you pro, but sadly, I see this as the IF for the Twins opening day 2010
1B Morneau
2B Tolbert or Casilla
SS Punto
3B Harris
BTW, I’m fine with Harris at 3B. I think its his best position. That MIF makes me want to puke
thrylos:
“Kinda interesting that he [Gardy] is arguing with the ump while looking at the camera, don’t ya think?”
Only you could conjure up such a ridiculous charge. Unbelievable.
“Kinda interesting that he [Gardy] is arguing with the ump while looking at the camera, don’t ya think?”
Only you could conjure up such a ridiculous charge. Unbelievable.
bop,
here is the picture:
http://www.startribune.com/photos/?c=y&img=1twin063009.jpg
where is he looking? At the person who is arguing with or the camera? Pictures do not lie.
hey howard,
i’m excited. i’m going to the games tonight and tomorrow in KC.
anyway, i know it’s too early to do this now, but when in the season are people going to start talking about optioning or sending buscher down and bringing up valencia? he’s the future of the team.
Isaac, they’re not going to call up Valencia to take Buscher’s spot on the bench. The only chance he comes up is if Crede goes on the DL.
That picture is priceless. The look on Vanover’s face says it all.
another day another BOP dropping
RE: trading for help.
1. I agree the Twins don’t much much in the way of minor league assets to use to acquire immediate major league help. For that, there can be nobody to blame but the people responsible for assembling the minor league talent.
2. I do NOT agree the Twins finances do not allow them to take on salary. This team’s payroll has been down for 2 years now, and last year they put in a waiver claim on Jared friggin’ Washburn, which tells me there’s plenty of payroll space, not to mention there’s talk a new publicly financed stadium deal might clear the legislature this year, which would, um, significantly increase revenues at some point in the not too distant future.
3. I also do not agree there isn’t help available out there. St Louis just traded for a player that would look pretty good at second base. I cannot believe Pittsburgh couldn’t be talked into giving up Sanchez.
Ultimately though, the time to fix the infield was over the winter, and the front office pretty much thumbed their noses at some fairly attractive options, settling for an overmarket deal to Nick Punto and a third baseman with health issues that fell into their lap.
I like Crede, he’s done pretty well, and I’m certainly glad to have him. (Can you imagine if we were watching Brian Buscher taking ground balls off his chest every night?) Casey Blake was always the better option though, and they had plenty of money to make that happen, as well as a shortstop or second baseman.
“where is he looking? At the person who is arguing with or the camera? Pictures do not lie.”
the photog takes a dozen shots of that argument and the editor uses the one with the most engaging composition. simple as that.
to say gardenhire is playing to the cameras is as silly as being all over him for harris’s bunt in the first (for one example in half a season’s worth).
bop…we’re generally on the same page, but do you not agree Gardy came out of the dugout last night with the sole purpose of getting himself tossed?
It was completely transparent, IMO. He couldn’t even work himself into a convincing lather, it was so staged.
the Twins don’t much much in the way of minor league assets to use to acquire immediate major league help
They do but they will not trade them:
Hicks, Revere, Ramos, Robertson, Gutierrez, Angel Morales. They are assets.
“… do you not agree Gardy came out of the dugout last night with the sole purpose of getting himself tossed?”
by the way, i’m not arguing that point.
T98
Gardinhire is looking at the thirdbase umpire,while asking the Home plate ump to get help on the call.The camera just happpens to be in the thirdbase camera box by the thirdbse dugout.Do you really think Gardy took time to look for the camera.You crack me up.
That’s got to be my favorite Twins game photo since the Cuddyer eyes closed misplay.
Howard, frankly I kind of like Meche. If he was on this team he’d have a better W-L record. The Royals aren’t exactly known for giving their pitchers a boatload of run support.
“another day another BOP dropping”
Another day another thrylos flaming turd. Did it occur to you boys that the camera angle captured Gardy as he glanced toward the umpire? That’s what most of us saw last night as we watched. But, of course, not you.
I’d use either Hicks or Revere (but not both) and possibly Ramos (as he has no future here behind the plate), but I know as well as T98 that it won’t happen. I’d also deal Gutierrez, but that is based on my general dislike of college pitchers, and besides, we may need him for our own bullpen.
BOP you would yell if T98 said the world was round.. get over yourself, I take it by your “boys” comment you think yourself the older wiser sage..
sorry sane already has that role and he has EARNED it
Chief:
“bop…we’re generally on the same page, but do you not agree Gardy came out of the dugout last night with the sole purpose of getting himself tossed?”
Yes, he came out to get tossed. But he didn’t powder his snout and peer into the camera. That is a stupid, stupid notion.
IMO, there is only one player in the Twins minor league system that I’d consider untradeable: Hicks.
However, the coin of the realm is ‘players ready to play in the majors’ and the Twins are pretty bereft of those assets. If they had them, they’d be here.
Speaking of the minors, has anybody ever heard a good explanation of why the Twins moved Revere off second base immediately after drafting him?
Isaac, By Oklahoma standards, it’ll be chilly in Kansas City. Enjoy … and have some barbecue for me.
glp, The Twins were interested in Meche, but the Royals offer after the ‘05 season was much more than what they thought he was worth — which means he should have been signed for somewhere between those two figures, right?
Tough for a fan to be a scout Chief. I don’t think anyone here could provide an adequate answer about Revere.
You just don’t get it FIRE, and you never will, I’m guessing. I swoop in when someone does a hatchet job on anyone. thrylos happens to do that occasionally.
By the way, the world IS round.
IMO, for the Twins to get an impact 2B they’ll have to part with a SP (Swarzak included) plus a Revere/Dinkelman type. The Twins better damn well know they are legit WS, not playoff, contenders to pull that string. I’m not sure I see it.
“By the way, the world IS round.”
my point exactly which of course you fail to get
Howard says:
June 30th, 2009 at 8:43 am
Brew, Shaun:
This may be a minority argument, but I think most ejections are silly, staged and bad theater. This one fell under that category. Ump blew the call. Deal with it, skip.
Yeah, that’s what all the great managers do, just sit on their hands and deal with it. Earl Weaver, Sparky Anderson, Tommy Lasorda, Billy Martin, Bobby Cox… What a joke.
” Earl Weaver, Sparky Anderson, Tommy Lasorda, Billy Martin, Bobby Cox… What a joke.”
the joke is putting Gardy in this class
Gardy would be an average 3rd base coach under these managers
Howard, not sure what Meche should have signed for, but whatever - the Blue Jays were willing to pay him the same (on a per year basis) as the Royals, but they wouldn’t go longer than four years with it.
a followup any of those managers would have this year’s Twin’s team firmly in place right now not adrift in .500 waters
FVG
“the joke is putting Gardy in this class
Gardy would be an average 3rd base coach under these managers”
LMAO! I couldn’t agree more.You’ve got the post of the day as far as I’m concerned.
Any terrible manager can get himself tossed if he wants to.
Chief, good thoughts about trading for help. Taking it a step further:
The reason I’ve been becoming more pessimistic about this season is that the team has several missing qualities, not just one. Quite a few individual disappointments, I’d say. I’d like the Twins to be sellers at the deadline, not buyers, because while Sanchez would improve the odds of postseason play, he isn’t enough to get us to the next round in my view. So, I’d prefer we dangle half the roster out there and see if we get any bites, adding prospects rather than looking for immediate help. With the exception of an everyday SS, the farm system has most of what this team will need to compete in 2010. This year, in my opinion, isn’t salvageable.
I’d give it at least until the AS break bop. The central is weak.
The thing about HOF managers is that people tend to remember their best seasons and conveniently disregard the years they fell flat on their faces. Go back and look at all those managers and see what kind of success they had in their first 7 years as a manager. See how they did with rotations having a total of less than 10 years of MLB experience.
Gardy’s no genius as a manager. I get frustrated with some of his decisions, like anyone else. (Frankly, I think few managers are all that smart.) But when people start suggesting a manager is posing for one of the 50 or so cameras in and around the dugouts, that’s beyond reasonable criticism.
I think the “get thrown out to fire up my team” thing is silly 99% of the time. But is it sillier for Gardy to do it than it is for LaRussa, Pinella, Leyland, etc.? Apparently so, if you’re simply looking to take every opportunity to beat the guy up around here.
Right on JC, Gardy deserves some of the blame for .500 but to lay it all at his feet is beyond reasonable.
Gardy’s antics when he’s arguing with am umpire look like they are straight out of the WWF. Over-the-top and rehearsed. I’m just waiting for the ump to give him a chop across the chest, look around stunned at the crowd, then clothesline the umpire.
gardy’s ejection was silly because it was such an obvious excuse for gardy to wind up the twins, and a half-heated attempt at that.
OK which is it? Is the farm system absent anything that any other team would want or does it already contain most of what this team needs to compete in 2010?
If we make half the roster available at the deadline, will there STILL be enough left to compete in 2010? If not, will people here complain yet again about the organization always making plans for competing “next year”?
You don’t know what might happen in 2010. If Mauer/Morneau blow a knee in spring training, it won’t matter what you have on the rest of your roster… 2010 will be a flop.
That’s why, if you’re within a reasonable shouting distance at midseason this year, you should be looking to BUY if possible and take your shot while you can.
I’m very disappointed that the Twins have backed themselves into a corner where their only perceived solultion involves violating their long held tenet
of strong D up the middle. I watched most of the game last night and saw a slow high bouncing single about 10 ft to the left of 2B. And I saw their catcher hit a triple over our CFer’s head. These events have a much bigger impact on the team than just the immediate injury.
I’d like to believe the onfield coaching staff realizes this but for some reason feels powerless. I’d like to believe that the FO is being inundated by requests from Gardy for help in this area. But I don’t know if I’d be right.
To me the answer is obvious.
A. Gomez is our CFer.
B. Find help outside the org for SS.
I think the window for the Twins is the next 3 years.
I could go either way right now with regard to BUY or SELL. 4 games back. Give it a couple weeks. The picture may be less muddy.
cricket Bobby Cox did quite well in 1990’s will his kids
I do get the point Gardy is a relatively young manager and some slack should be given though grace can be overextended
Gardy’s tantrums seem fake and contrived much of the time, perhaps if he had his teams playing actual fundamental baseball the ejections to fire up the team would either work better or would not be needed
What would the Twins sell if they were sellers? Crede? Cuddy? Punto?
How much would you expect to get for those guys?
Nick Punto’s UZR/150 at 2B this year = -17.4. Tolbert and Casilla have been no better. Can we at least accept the fact that Cuddy at 2B would have to be a complete disaster to be worse IN THE FIELD than the Twins have already gotten.
Pete,
About manager ejections. The “great managers” get ejected all the time, huh? Gardy’s been ejected 44 times now, tying Tommy Lasorda. Sparky Anderson was ejected 47 times, Billy Martin 45.
More numbers? Gardy has been ejected once every 27.5 games. Bobby Cox, who holds the all-time record, has been ejected once every 29.4 games.
Billy Martin was ejected once every 50.3 games, Lasorda once every 69.11 and Sparky once every 85.7 games.
Earl Weaver was ejected once every 26.1 games (97 times/2,541 games). But he’s in his own class.
The great ones may not “sit on their hands,” as you state, but they seem to do a better job than Gardy of picking their spots.
Still think it’s a joke?
I wasn’t comparing Gardy to any of the managers I mentioned. He isn’t a HOF manager, although, he is a lot better than you people claim he is. My point was a manager has to protect his players, and Gardy does a good job of that.
Who gave you those numbers Howard? You have Thyrlos on speed dial?
more gloomy stuff, phil miller st. paul pp twins reporter was layed off today!!
“Who gave you those numbers Howard? You have Thyrlos on speed dial?’
Sorry Howard but that’s funny.
Valid points as usual JC but at some point the front office needs to decide what the future of the 2009 team is,and be honest about it.
I’m all for giving this team every opportunity to win.But if buy the deadline they are still playing yo-yo with .500 I’d be more inclined to shop a Cuddy and/or Crede for help in the bullpen and/or a middle infielder.
At .500 at the end of July you need to get off the pot.If the FO believes in either DY or Gomez it might be time to unload Cuddy if possible and let those two play.If the FO has lost faith in either of those two,then maybe they need a new place to play.
Pete,
It’s called RESEARCH. The internet makes it very easy to do. (So easy even a blogger can do it.)
You go here: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2914558
And here: http://www.baseball-reference.com/managers/
And use a $2.98 calculator and you too can deal in facts.
BC of ND: Yes, it was a good line! No apology needed.
Cuddy to 2B, Cuddy to 2B, Cuddy to 2B. Do it now and get DY AND Go-Go that PT AND improve the OF defense. Or: expect that M&M will start hitting again and the rotation keeps it up. Maybe patience is the panacea.
JC:
“That’s why, if you’re within a reasonable shouting distance at midseason this year, you should be looking to BUY if possible and take your shot while you can.”
I can buy this position, and usually have. But think about this: there are so many contending clubs this year that appear to be quite a bit better than the Twins. That reduces the odds, so the cost of taking a shot may be steep with less reward. Contrarily, with more contending clubs as potential “buyers” at the break, maybe sellers have an edge. Maybe someone does something stupid, say, like giving us three blue-chip prospects for a player like Liriano. As for 2010? We’re toast if Mauer or Morneau gets hurt regardless. Other than Swarzak, Delaney, and Valencia, there isn’t another player at AAA likely to impact wins and losses in 2010. We need to trade for a quality SS, and if that can be done, I will be happy if the Twins become buyers.
I think the Twins are legitimately 2nd tier right now (based on run differential) bop. But yeah, the deal dictates buy or sell. And frankly, none of us 220ers know the details.
bop,
“We need to trade for a quality SS, and if that can be done, I will be happy if the Twins become buyers.”
It feels good to know you’re not alone.
I guess i’m naive but i honestly believe the Twins do look at possible trade options to improve the team. I think a lot of bloggers get upset because they dont make a trade just to make a trade.
I’m with Howard on this ejection stuff but I would file under the category of “harmless error”.
Wins and losses are what matters…if the manager wants to put on a dog and pony show, no matter how sincere or juvenile it may be, so be it, so long as the win-loss results are there.
As for Gardy being a young manager (I think someone mentioned that above), that’s a myth, folks. Gardy would be considered a “veteran” manager at this point…he’s the longest tenured manager with their current team in the AL Central and I bet if you look at it, he probably has more years as managers than all but a handful of those in MLB, including the likes of Terry Francona, Mike Scocia, and Ozzie Guillen, all of whom have won World Championships.
On the merits of Gardy as a manager (recall, folks, this assessment comes from the guy who keeps a Ron Gardenhire #35 ball seated in the front console of his car), recall a Joe C. live chat a couple weeks back where he “laughed” when fans brought up the job performance of Gardy, calling him a “top 5 manager in MLB”. We all know the “what you have to work with” argument is there, but this team has 3 All Stars to work with and several others in the midst of multi-million dollar contracts…yet here we stand perpetually at the .500 mark. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I won’t be calling for Gardy’s head unless we’re at this point a year from now, but I understand the conversation.
His insistence on sticking with the same mediocre core of guys (Punto, Tolbert, and Redmond) and his impatience with the youngsters (Go-Go and Casilla) could end up costing him. But as I said, I will give him a year to straighten it out. That remains true with our without the ejection antics.
Bill Smith, on the other hand, I’m not so patient with.
Dropping Cuddy in at 2B looks good on paper. But could he do it? Has he gained any weight since he last played there in ‘04? I’m guessing his traing the last 5 years has focused on being an OF, not an IF. It would be a totally different training focus, especially for his legs. I just don’t think it is that easy. How would it affect his offense. Look no further than HArris to see a wild offensive fluctuation based on what position he is playing.
I’m with you BC. At this point in time, I think its too hard to give up on either the season or the future. The picture is too muddy. Buying or selling would have to be necessitated, at this point, by another GM’s stupidity.
Certainly possible if not probable lefty but you don’t know until you try.
Not sure if the guy who used to be “shaun” decided to cap his name, but that wasn’t me in those other posts.
Anyway Pro from Dover-how do you expect anyone to take Cuddy from the Twins unless the Twins take on a large part of his salary?
BC of ND:
“I think a lot of bloggers get upset because they dont make a trade just to make a trade.”
I’m trying to recall the last time a Pohlad company was on the wrong end of a deal. Oh yeah. 2008. Garza and Bartlett for Young and Harris. But I mean, BESIDES that one.
Seriously, this franchise has a decent track record of getting value for marginal players, and we sure have a boatload of them now. Let’s deal.
bop, this is what frustrates me around here (OK, its just ONE thing that frustrates me around here). In one comment you say that, “With the exception of an everyday SS, the farm system has most of what this team will need to compete in 2010.” In the next, you say, “Other than Swarzak, Delaney, and Valencia, there isn’t another player at AAA likely to impact wins and losses in 2010.”
Now, I’m willing to concede that it’s possible both statements could be proven correct. Maybe those 3 guys turn out to be all this team needs to compete in 2010 if the Twins find a new SS elsewhere.
But those comments seem to in one case say that the organization has plenty of MLB ready talent and in the next case lament the lack of such talent available. That makes it pretty tough for an organization to satisfy you.
I’m picking on you specifically in this case, but it’s not intended to say you personally are THE commenter to be guilty of this. It happens a lot (usually based on the most recent game played and who screwed up the worst in that game or who didn’t get to play in that game).
No one here is a columnist JC, why so tough on commenters?
bop my point was that maybe, just maybe, the trades they get offered are just bad trades. For example what if the Brewers wanted Slowey and Perkins for JJ Hardy.
BOP: Terry Ryan had a decent track record. BS has made 2 horse$hit trades.
BC, I have no doubt that the organization continuously scouts other teams and considers possibilities. I don’t believe most people here just want a trade for the sake of a trade(I know I don’t).
But the frustration comes when virtually every year, the word that comes out of Twinsville is akin to, “well we were talking to this team about so-and-so but in the end they just wanted too much.”
Sure, that’s going to happen. But when the same thing happens virtually every season, at some point you have to wonder how seriously the FO is really trying. Why is it that only other teams can find deals that they think can help both teams and are a fair exchange?
That’s why, if you’re within a reasonable shouting distance at midseason this year, you should be looking to BUY if possible and take your shot while you can.
I just want to say I agree with this statement 100 percent.
I am still pi$$ed off the Twins made no legitimate attempt to help themselves last year, when a playoff spot was in reach.
As far as the playoffs are concerned, I’m fine with just getting there. One you’re in the playoffs, anything can happen. The trick is to get there in the first place.
The AL Central looks very winnable to me this year, again. Friggin’ go for it. I won’t complain 3 years from now if somebody out of the Twins farm system ends up helping somebody else in 2012. I won’t complain if the Twins make a legitimate effort to win this year, and it ends up falling short.
I reserve every right to complain if the Twins, once again, decide the 4th best OF prospect in the minors, or some decent arm in AA, is too stiff a price to pay to try to win in 2009.
I don’t want the FO to make a trade just to make a trade but I gotta believe there are teams out there that are now considered “Sellers” that we could get a decent 2nd baseman with either some prospects or money. When I saw that the Cardinals got LaRosa I was just mad because that’s the type of deal we need to make. We keep sending out these bench players to play 2nd and it’s very annoying to have that automatic out everytime Punto gets up to bat. I also hate it when Crede is out of the lineup (but understand that he needs to be careful) and we see Buscher who doesn’t have much range, has a questionable arm (accuracy) and can’t seem to hit anymore. What do we have on the bench for a pinch hitter besides Morales that would be any good? These are some of the issues that I wish the FO would address.
amen, Chief.
OB if you think I’m being tough on commenters, you really wouldn’t want to work for me! LOL
I have nothing personal against anyone here. Some I enjoy discussions with more than others. Some I tend to agree with more than others.
But other than what I have said about the daily whining about this or that player not being in the lineup when its announced, I don’t think I’ve said much that would be “tough” on commenters.
Jason
Valid points on Gardy and like I said in an earlier post,the Twins are a combined nine games over .500 since the magical season of ‘06.Two and a half seasons of basically mediocre play.Is firing the manager called for?Probably not,but managers get fired for mediocre results all the time.
As for Bill Smith,I’m inclined to give him a little more time.he stepped into a mess with Santana and Hunter already all but out the door.I agree he has done little to agressively help the team
but I don’t fault him for the DY trade.He tried and it hasn’t worked out. The worst thing he could do would to be afraid of trying again.
Doug Risebrough was said to have never recovered from making a brutal trade of Doug Gilmore while the GM in Calgary.Sitting on his hands and not making any significant moves (and telling the fans they needed to lower their expectations) got Risebrough fired.
Dover,
While I don’t pretend to be a Wild guy, I have to believe that not making a playoff push when you play in front of a sold out arena night after night is grounds to get the GM fired.
With the Twins, I know patience is the rule of thumb. However, Bill Smith has made two moves I would not have done with the money–signing Punto and Cuddyer to big money. At the same time, he did lock up Morneau, which we have to give him credit for, and his signing of Crede was absolutely clutch in my opinion.
The trades have been a disaster.
But the main thing is although Smith may have been thrown into the fire prematurely, he also hasn’t earned the leash that Gardy has (Gardy made the playoffs 4 of his first 5 years as manager). Therefore, I’m not willing to wait and see with Smith when our team’s future is on the line. If D Young, the Santana trade, Punto, and Cuddyer all fall apart…then Billy has to go.
Fran, I’m assuming you’re not telling me that I should put a happy face on everything. Frankly, I’m surprised that I’m the first person (I think) who’s written about the Twins’ good fortune in regard to whom they’re not facing. If they’d won yesterday, it would have been a post about “one more fortunate thing” for the Twins.
Howard, you assume correctly. Significant difference between putting a happy face on everything and encouraging gloominess.
“One more fortunate thing”? The Twins have been a lot of things so far this season. I would not include fortunate on the list.
That’s exactly how I feel Chief and you stated it much more effectively than I did.
If you’re 8 games back of the division and 5 teams are ahead of you for the wild card, no I don’t think you “buy” just because you’ve got a mathematical shot at a great comeback with a miracle drive the last 2 months.
But the Tigers and WSox are beatable this year and one or two key additions, assuming others stay healthy, can put you in the playoffs with some momentum.
Maybe you identify your top 3-4 prospects… guys like Valencia that you know you have to count on next year and for years after that… and you keep them off the table. But other than that, I don’t think any minor league ballplayer should be untouchable. That doesn’t mean you ship 10 of them out for a rental player, but if it takes one of them (or even a couple of them if it’s for a player you will get a couple of years of service out of), you have to be willing to pull the trigger occasionally.
“No one here is a columnist JC, why so tough on commenters?”
Because commenters’ opinions are just as valid as just as open to criticism (when printed for public viewing) as a columnist’s opinion, IMO.
That’s why we all get our buns toasted periodically.
“However, Bill Smith has made two moves I would not have done with the money–signing Punto and Cuddyer to big money.”
Cuddyer is earning his paycheck this year.
3 years for 24 million plus a team option is a bad contract for a guy with an OPS+ of 131? Not in my opinion.
“Howard, frankly I kind of like Meche. If he was on this team he’d have a better W-L record. The Royals aren’t exactly known for giving their pitchers a boatload of run support.”
~Isn’t this the argument that non-supporters shoot down as absurd and/or irrevelant when having the Blyleven HOF discussion, as far as they highlight his number of losses? Not saying I agree with it, however, for IMO the non-supporters are the absurd ones…
Jason,
That was my point on Risebrough,he got what he deserved.Like I said the worst thing BS could do would to be afraid to pull of another trade just because one blew up on him.Good GM’s have thick skin.
As for Gardy,how long does he get a free pass for what he did his first five years? Again I’m not calling for his head, but he is the manager and managers can and do get fired for mediocraty,which is what the last 2 1/2 years have been IMO.The Twins have many problems Gardy COULD be one of them,so COULD Smith.
Then again maybe as fans we just need to realize that the Twins HAVE had a prety good run from 2001 to the present.maybe the run is about over and the Twins and their fans need to think re build.
JC:
“Now, I’m willing to concede that it’s possible both statements could be proven correct. Maybe those 3 guys turn out to be all this team needs to compete in 2010 if the Twins find a new SS elsewhere.”
Bingo. Concession accepted. My view: it starts and ends with pitching, and pitching is a numbers game. With Boof and Neshek, Swarzak and Mulvey, Delaney and Gutierrez, we can compete in 2010. With a proven blue chip SS.
I’ve been rather consistent with my opinion on the team, I think. We should begin a “new era”. No more FA fill-ins like Lamb, no more bargain basement solutions like Ayala. Live with Gomez in CF, but no more platoon and utility guys playing every day. We can afford quality now, because we have fewer problems to solve and more financial resources. Consistently good franchises have at least one new impact player arrive each year from their system. We are there now too, for the first time in a long time. Swarzak and Valencia next year, Ramos and Tosoni in 2011, then Bromberg and Revere, then Gibson and Hicks, then…
I suggest we try to be sellers at the break just in case someone is willing to overpay us for players that we can easily replace, like Cuddyer.
“That’s why we all get our buns toasted periodically.”
~Happens to Reddog everytime he tries his naked BP at an outdoor facility too…
“Cuddyer is earning his paycheck this year.”
wow 7.5M plus a 1M buyout don’t buy as much as it use to Kubel and Crede combined make what Magic Man does and both have similar numbers,Kubel has a much higher avg
FIRE: Not a fair argument at all. Kubel’s salary is irrelevent since he is in his arbitration years. Crede is on a one year prove-it deal.
Want to make a fair comparison. List all the corner OF in MLB, ranked by OPS+. Next, list thier salaries. 3rd, make a formula for price per OPS+ point, or some other similar analitical measure. Now compare them. I’m guessing it will prove Cuddyer is doing his job.
Totally unrelated to the topic, but Twins’ fans (esp. outside of the TC area) might want to know that Phil Miller (Twins’ beat reporter) got laid off by the other TC paper this morning.
To be fair (not that there’s usually a lot of interest in being fair here), I don’t think comparing contracts signed during the past offseason with contracts entered in to in prior offseasons is exactly apples-to-apples. It remains to be seen whether the Crede-like contracts were a one year aberation or a new standard.
I saw Cuddyer’s contract as part of an overall message the FO was sending to fans and to the players… that the Twins would make efforts to keep players considered core players, rather than letting them all walk away or trading them away. If Cuddyer turns out to have been a bad decision (and I’m not yet convinced that’s the case), so be it. I’m sure that if Nathan had gone in the tank, Smith would be getting blasted for that contract as well. It’s a crapshoot at times.
I think Cuddyer is way overpaid and probably the reason we won’t be able to trade him without eating part of his salary. He’s played in practically every game (with the few he missed with a sore finger) and I just wonder what the stats would be if Delmon or Gomez had been given that luxury. Those two guys need to play everyday and I think they would come around with their hitting - it’s just a good groove to get into knowing that you’ll be in your regular spot every night. Any chance we can trade LNP for a Davanni’s pizza and a bag of balls?
Cuddyer may or may not earn his salary by year’s end…I still think he’s overpaid, but he has the opportunity to prove me wrong…but I threw him in as a possible misstep by Bill Smith. I didn’t claim he was a confirmed bust.
Speaking of deals, the Yankees just picked up Eric Hinske from the Pirates for two minor leaguers. To replace Hinske on the roster, the Pirates brought up old friend Garrett Jones who was having a pretty decent year in Indianapolis.
JC,
You are right about the Cuddyer / core players bit…but here’s the problem: Mauer, Morneau, and Nathan are core players. Santana and Hunter were once core players. I’m not sure Cuddyer, Punto, and Redmond (three recent signings) are core players.
“Daddy, what does ‘redundent’ mean?”
“Read Minnesota Cat’s 2:09 post, honey. You’ll understand.”
Cat,
I’m sure there are plenty of teams lining up to take Punto’s salary off our hands and take advantage of his “getting after it” night after night.
In fact, I wouldn’t doubt it if Bill Smith was working on a Freddy Sanchez for Nick Punto and a player to be named later deal with the Pirates as we speak…
thanks for the note re: Phil Miller, thrylos. That’s sad. Keep the train rolling, Howard.
I saw Cuddyer’s contract as part of an overall message the FO was sending to fans and to the players… that the Twins would make efforts to keep players considered core players, rather than letting them all walk away or trading them away.
If that’s the case, I’d rather they sent ME that message by keeping Santana and Hunter. At least Santana. He’s a ‘core’ player. They could send me that message now by announcing a Mauer contract extension.
As for Cuddyer, I want the Twins to win now, this year, and right now, he’s one of the players that have to be in the lineup every day. He’s hitting .276/.356/.506.
If you’re in the ‘Twins should be playing for 2010 and beyond’ camp, then I can understand arguments that favor playing another outfielder over Cuddyer.
But neither Delmon or Gomez are anywhere close to producing at Cuddyer’s rate this year.
The Cuddyer contract(at the time of the signing )was not that out of wack IMO.He was a bust last year due to injuries,If he maitains his current pace the rest of ‘09 and ‘10 he would be an asset to the team and not over paid.
Having said that,if BS feels that the team is going nowhere this year at the deadline,trading him would be a viable option.If you had to eat some of his salary and it allowed DY and Gomoz playing time to find out if they fit into future plans,so be it.
And Crikket was right Cuddy’s contract was P.R. based as well.Nothing wrong with that either.The Twins had to show the fans some kind of commitment coming of the loss of Santana and Hunter.
“And Crikket was right Cuddy’s contract was P.R. based as well.Nothing wrong with that either.”
Only if it provides results. Cuddy has given us something so far…so I agree it’s too early to say it’s a bust and Chief is right that he’s producing more at this moment than Go-Go and D Young.
Punto, if that was a PR move, then chalk that up to bad PR.
“I’d rather they sent ME that message by keeping Santana”
sure, but first they woulda had to hypnotize santana to want to stay in minnesota.
Finding out you’ve been “released” while in KC covering the team is tough (not that it would be easy at home either, of course). I’ve never been as regular at reading the other paper’s site as the Strib’s, but I wish Mr. Miller the best.
Jason, today Mauer, Morneau and Nathan are core players. But at the time of Cuddyer’s contract, he was coming off a decent year and was, by many (if not necessarily you) considered a core member of the team. Not to the same degree as Morneau (and he got a smaller/shorter contract that reflects that difference), but he was projected to be a regular and valuable team member. In fact, I would argue, that if he had put up numbers last year comparable to what he’s done this year (rather than being injured most of the year), he’d be getting much less criticism around here about his contract now.
It just seems like once a player falls out of favor with some people, it’s impossible to turn that opinion around. I think that’s unfortunate.
As for whether Gomez or Young would have put up similar stats with the same PT, I’m skeptical… very skeptical. It’s just too easy to say “I coulda done that, too.” Fact is, neither of them have done much with the time they HAVE gotten to support such a hypothesis, imo.
Harris sucks on D………………
“Cuddyer may or may not earn his salary by year’s end…I still think he’s overpaid, but he has the opportunity to prove me wrong…but I threw him in as a possible misstep by Bill Smith. I didn’t claim he was a confirmed bust.”
Can’t you replace the name ‘Cuddyer’ with ‘Punto’ in that statement?
Since his return from the DL, Punto has a .370/.419/.407 line. His career suggests he’ll play league average defense at 2B, which is odd because it appears he plays much better defensively at 3B and SS. If Punto can hit like he did last year, and play league average defense, he should be worth the contract he signed.
“It just seems like once a player falls out of favor with some people, it’s impossible to turn that opinion around.”
I guess I’m not “some people”. Exhibit A for me is Jason Kubel.
Plus, in 2004, I was extremely upset with the Twins for ditching Mientkiewicz in favor of Morneau and was overly critical of Morneau as a result. Now he’s my favorite Twin.
Pete D you must be joking with that last post…not even worth addressing.
Jason
You need to let the Punto thing go.No one here said anything about Punto being a PR move.
What is that website that estimates a players worth based on production? Last month it had Mauer’s production as being worth $38M.
Jason, Redmond is making $950k. I wouldn’t throw him in with Cuddyer and Punto. Also, he signed his extension in 2006.
Well, I won’t let it go but I admit I was too hard on Pete D. It was a legitimate take worth addressing…
I won’t get excited over Punto’s numbers since returning from the DL. He might be the worst starter in all of baseball. But what makes it really sad is his manager thinks this team “needs” him. I guess that’s not really Nicky’s fault.
Man, I hate it when people state their opinions as “fact”! (In light of that, please consider the “Fact is…” at the beginning of the last sentence of my previous comment to be deleted.)
My recollection of my thoughts when they announced the Punto re-signing was that it was a panic move.
I vaguely recall that a couple of other middle infielders had been signed after very little activity to that point and that there were rumors the Phillies or some other NL team were talking to Punto’s agent. Then bam, he re-signs with the Twins.
I remember thinking they over-reacted to a concern that all of the affordable MI options would be gone quickly. I have no idea if that was actually the thinking, of course. Obviously, if they had waited, they could have either (a) gotten him for less, assuming another team didn’t sign him quickly thereafter; or (b) gotten someone as good or better for less money when the market subsequently dropped like a rock.
sure, but first they woulda had to hypnotize santana to want to stay in minnesota.
If by ‘hypnotize’ you mean offer him close to market rate before he smelled free agency, and before they waived the white flag with the Castillo deal, then yeah, you’ve got a point.
Or–as I said at the time of the trade–you keep Santana for 2008, put 240 innings on his arm and try to win that year, and take the draft picks, instead of settling for a deal in which one year later the centerpiece of the trade can’t even hold down a regular job, the two low ceiling starters you got are languishing in AAA with not much chance of ever having a big impact in the majors and now won’t even get you much if you move them, and Guerra is mucking along in A ball.
USAFChief,
Santana didn’t want to be here anymore, regardless of the price. He wanted to play in the limelight of the Big Apple. Turn the page…
My thoughts when they re-signed Punto: “You gotta be kidding me, this is our big offseason signing?”
Chief’s on a roll today…great analysis.
SweetOne,
Redmond fits in because he’s considered part of the core (so much so that he plays in front of Morales, much as Cuddyer plays in front of Young / Go-Go). I wasn’t so much referring to the money with Red Dog.
And for that matter, the money isn’t all that bothersome with Cuddyer or Punto, either…it’s the Pohlad’s money, they have plenty of it (except they do operate on a tight budget)…it’s the commitment that apparently comes along with the money that can be tough to swallow when the player has red flags left and right.
“You need to let the Punto thing go.No one here said anything about Punto being a PR move.”
it was a PR move for the manager from Billy
I submit that Magic Man is overpaid based on the limited resources Billy is forced to work with.. he makes over 10% of the total payroll, if he is not on the roster, that’s money that could have shored up the bullpen hole and/or middle infield abyss Magic Man is exactly like LNP 1 good year way above career numbers
I tend to analyze Twin’s players based on is their a cheaper player in the org that could put up potentially similar numbers for alot cheaper allowing the team to shore up other areas.. with Span,GOGO,Young already there it seems Magic Man should have been the player shopped around not Young
Guess that’s one difference between us, Jason. I see something that I think is not a very rational decision and I try to analyze it to see if I’m missing something or at least consider what might have caused the decision to be made, rather than just react emotionally and leap to assumptions that have no real basis. (I would say Crede turned out to be the “big offseason signing”, wouldn’t you?)
“If by ‘hypnotize’ you mean offer him close to market rate before he smelled free agency, and before they waived the white flag with the Castillo deal, then yeah, you’ve got a point.”
i believe santana wanted the big east-coast stage and he got it.
now, by the way, his big-budget mets (37-38) are doing worse than the twins (39-39) and didn’t make it past game 162 last year. santana is still pretty dang good but his presence guarantees nothing.
Punto had to be a PR move…how else do you explain paying him and playing him in front of a guy on the roster who is clearly more talented?
It’s not like Harris was a spring chicken who just hatched in April.
Crede did turn out to be the big offseason signing, JC, but it came in late March.
You can’t tell me they were planning that all along.
“List all the corner OF in MLB, ranked by OPS+. Next, list thier salaries. 3rd, make a formula for price per OPS+ point, or some other similar analitical measure. Now compare them. I’m guessing it will prove Cuddyer is doing his job.”
Yeah, I’m not going to go that in depth, but I’ll do a little bit.
Cuddyer is currently 9th in OPS among qualified RF’ers according to ESPN.com. 7 through 13 go like this -
Swisher - .873 - $5.3 million
Drew - .873 - $14 million
Cuddyer - .862 - $6.75 million
Choo - .861 - $0.42 million
Werth - .859 - $2 million
Ethier - .849 - $3.1 million
Cruz - .849 - $.41 million
Now, obviously there are some problems with just looking at a salary for this year. Swisher, Drew, and Cuddyer are locked in for a couple of years, with both Swisher and Cuddyer due raises. Choo, Ethier, and Cruz all have fewer than 2 1/2 years of MLB experience. Werth avoided arbitration with his signing, and gets a raise to $7 million next year.
There are also some extremes on the overall list. Guys like Ordonez, Giles, and Guillen getting paid way too much, and guys like Upton and Pence not getting paid enough because they haven’t hit free agency yet.
Overall, just glancing at the list, Cuddyer doesn’t seem to be overpaid. He seems to be producing at a price that seems pretty reasonable for a free agent RF’er.
I like the numbers, Pete D, but you do have to factor in that Swisher is a Yankee and Drew plays for the Red Sox.
To me, guys on those teams are overpaid generally by definition, so they probably should get an asterisk.
Cuddy is hands down the 4th best hitter (best RH) on the Twins. His current 2009 stats are a mirror image of his 2006 campaign. Aside from his injury plagued 2008, he has performed. Good signing.
Jason, the “commitment” thing I might tend to agree with.
I do think Gardy (and probably others in the FO) tend to look at a guy in terms of work ethic, community involvement, and similar “intangibles” and give too much credit for some of those things when determining value to the team. Not that those factors should be altogether dismissed (and we’ll probably differ considering the appropriate value to place on them in a case by case basis).
But I’ve had employees I really liked. They work hard. They try to do what they’re asked to do. But in the end, it’s just a bad fit… they can’t seem to really grasp the requirements of the job. I hate having to do it, but in some cases, you just have to cut them loose in favor of someone who’s simply just better at the job that needs to be done.
by the way, his big-budget mets (37-38) are doing worse than the twins (39-39)
Beltran, Delgado, Maine, Perez, Putz, Reyes are all in the DL. Where would the Twins be with Morneau, Mauer, Span, Blackburn, Perkins, Mijares all in the DL at the same time?
Santana didn’t want to be here anymore, regardless of the price. He wanted to play in the limelight of the Big Apple. Turn the page…
By the time he was traded, that might be true. If so, you have to ask yourself why, no?
It’s also completely beside the point. There was no gun to Smith’s head forcing him to accept a bad trade. And you cannot have a discussion about Bill Smith without discussing the Santana deal. Smith was put in a bad position, I agree, but the bottom line is the Santana trade is the signature move of the Bill Smith era to date. It defines his tenure so far, and likely will forever. It’s the most significant Twins trade since at least the Pierzynski deal.
Jason: “Crede did turn out to be the big offseason signing, JC, but it came in late March.
You can’t tell me they were planning that all along.”
I do believe that they were planning on making a concerted effort to sign a 3B all along and certainly still had those plans at the time they signed Punto, yes.
“I like the numbers, Pete D, but you do have to factor in that Swisher is a Yankee and Drew plays for the Red Sox.”
Except that Swisher signed his deal with the Oakland A’s.
I’ll look at it more in a couple of minutes.
JC, it’s a moot point because they got the job done in the end, but my read on the Crede thing is they were holding out so the money came down to a level they were willing to pay. I wouldn’t call that an aggressive plan…another team could’ve easily swooped in before we got him…luckily for us, that didn’t happen.
Chief,
In retrospect, you were right in suggesting the Twins keep Santana and then settle for the draft picks, especially if you apply the rule that payroll should be >50% of revenue. I was in the other camp, because I failed to believe the results of the trade would be abysmal. It’s lookin’ bad. I place a high value on draft picks, and hence, I thought the Twin’s unwillingness to relinquish one for Cruz was understandable. The bottom line is that these decisions aren’t like reading the recipe book. Luck is a component. I guess a GM should be judged as good if he bats 2 for 3 with his deals?
His current 2009 stats are a mirror image of his 2006 campaign.
Just his slash line (and I think it is a mirage).
Look at this:
2006: 11 GIDP 635 PA
2009: 11 GIDP 295 PA
2006: (R+RBI/PA) = .332
2009: (R+RBI/PA) = .274
2006: GB% 44%
2009: GB% 51.7%
2006: Wins Above Replacement: 3.1
2009: Wins Above Replacement: 1.4
“Beltran, Delgado, Maine, Perez, Putz, Reyes are all in the DL. Where would the Twins be with Morneau, Mauer, Span, Blackburn, Perkins, Mijares all in the DL at the same time?”
but then how does that explain the 2007 and 2008 mets?
I do think they came out with an “aggressive plan” to try to get Blake, Jason. They weren’t willing to give him 3 years (and block Valencia in the process) and the Dodgers were. But they did pursue him aggressively.
Would it have made you feel better if they had “aggressively” pursued Crede and paid him 3 times as much by signing him 2 months sooner? I actually thought they handled his negotiations very well. The Twins knew there was little chance of anyone “swooping in”. The Giants were interested, but that’s all.
Surely you aren’t suggesting that whenever a bad deal is made, it’s because the FO is stupid, but when a good deal is made, it’s because they got lucky? That’s pretty harsh.
Remember way back when the Pohlads and the FO were saying things like “we will spend the money on payroll if we get a new stadium”?
When the team had a gift opportunity to win the division last year, NO attempts were made to put this team over the top.
This past offseason…
8th inning RP- We get Ayala.
3rd base- Casey Blake? Sorry, how about Joe Crede.
2b- O-Dog? Sorry, how about Alexi Casilla/Matt Tolbert .
Time for the owners and BS to put their money where their mouth is and try to make a move this year.
Johan wasn’t with Mets in 2007
but then how does that explain the 2007 and 2008 mets?
Santana was with the Twins in 2007.
In 2008, with their closer out with TJ surgery for half the season, the Mets finished the season with 89-73 record (better than that of the Twins)
“but then how does that explain the 2007 and 2008 mets?”
Was Santana on the 2007 Mets?
lol I think we covered Johan was not with Mets in 2007!
“Johan wasn’t with Mets in 2007″
ok, i’ll rewrite my sentence: but then how does that explain the 2008 (or even the 2007) mets?
point is, big budget signings (or re-signings) guarantee nada.
“Just his slash line (and I think it is a mirage).”
Wanna know what makes a slash line relevant or irrelevant?
Favoritism.
I place a high value on draft picks
All the more reason not to sell Santana cheaply, right? One year of Santana pitching, plus the extra draft picks.
I guess a GM should be judged as good if he bats 2 for 3 with his deals?
That would be pretty good, in my estimation.
by the way, the rhetorical question about the 2007 and 2008 mets was in reference to the point about injuries, not santana. but thanks, everyone, for the hair-trigger love.
ok, i’ll rewrite my sentence: but then how does that explain the 2008 (or even the 2007) mets?
Santana went 16-7 with the 2008 Mets, with 234 innings of 2.53 ERA/1.15 WHIP pitching. He didn’t miss a start, to the best of my recollection.
I’m going to go out on a limb here and proclaim that whatever the Mets problems in 2008, Johan Santana wasn’t one of them.
Johan wasn’t injured in 2007.
“Just his slash line (and I think it is a mirage).”
Wanna know what makes a slash line relevant or irrelevant?
Favoritism.
BOP,
mirage = an optical effect, an illusion. (like a magic trick, if you prefer). It does not denote relevancy but the probability of going away (and not being as such at the end of the season, because most of his other stats are worse in 2009 than in 2006)
“I’m going to go out on a limb here and proclaim that whatever the Mets problems in 2008, Johan Santana wasn’t one of them.”
still looks to me like his mere presence wasn’t enough.
more BOP droppings = BOP constant hatchet job on T98
BOP can you put down your bias mat and agree that T98 has relevant stats and facts on anything?
“is it just me or do you have a combustive relationship with everybody?”
name that move
opps name that movie
agree that T98 has relevant stats and facts on anything?
Fire,
even I disagree on the “anything” part of that statement 
A mirage does not denote hypocracy either.
One player’s (Cuddyer) stats are sub-par for some period, so your conclusion is that they are in permanent decline. The guy’s a stiff and a bigmouth (your words). You choose to ignore his injuries when drawing your conclusion.
Another player’s (Young) stats are sub-par for some period, so your conclusion is that they are in temporary decline. The manager is abusing him and is at fault for his wretchedness. The batting coach is weak. You choose to ignore any signs that point to the player’s frame of mind as a potential cause.
Wanna know what makes assigning probability to something a mirage?
Favoritism.
Fire, I appreciate the stats, believe me, and, so just you can witness:
thrylos, let me once again thank you for all your contributions, especially the facts you share with us.
I think BOP just went on my head
nicely done and I think we can agree to disagree on Magic Man,LNP,Gardy
and it’s not bias or favoritism IMO
we seem to have different ways of valuing players and looking at the Twin’s team from different perceptions
Jason,
I don’t know how you can consider a backup player part of the core.
Yes, Redmond plays in front of Morales because he is the #2 catcher and Morales is #3.
What will it take to get rid of Bill Smith? Will it take a losing season? Will it take the inability to sign Joe Maurer after having had a year and a half already to get it done? What is it going to take? When Bartlett finishes the year hitting .300 and Garza takes another MVP award in the playoffs? When Santana wins another Cy young? Please tell me what it will take to remove this cancer.
I wish someone could explain the following to me:
1) Gardy wanted Morales up with the club and then never plays him so instead of getting reps in AAA he collects dust.
2) Buscher and Tolbert could not even make a AA All-Star team yet find their way in to the lineup of a major league club despite defensive inadequacies and the ability to hit above .200.
3) Twins fans are ready to wait until Delmon Young turns 30 before realizing all that talk about his great potential is a mirage. He is a bust and while he still has any trade value at all, should be gone. I am not thrilled by Gomez but at least he plays great defense and plays with his heart.
Alright. Here goes.
Abreu - 114 OPS+ - 1 year/5 M
Pence - 138 OPS+ - 1 year/.439 M
Buck - 80 OPS+ - 1 year/.41 M
Rios - 95 OPS+ - 7 years/69.835 M
Francouer - 67 OPS+ - 1 year/3.375 M
Hart - 96 OPS+ - 1 year/3.25 M
Ludwick - 89 OPS+ - 1 year/3.7 M
Bradley - 89 OPS+ - 3 years/30 M
Upton - 149 OPS+ - 1 year/.412 M
Ethier - 123 OPS+ - 1 year/3.1 M
Winn - 82 OPS+ - 3 years/23.25 M
Choo - 124 OPS+ - 1 year/.4203 M
Ichiro - 140 OPS+ - 5 years/90 M
Hermida - 99 OPS+ - 1 year/2.25 M
Church - 91 OPS+ - 1 year/2.8 M
Kearns - 74 OPS+ - 3 years/17.5 M
Markakis - 110 OPS+ - 6 years/66.1 M
Giles - 54 OPS+ - 4 years/36 M
Werth - 123 OPS+ - 2 years/10 M
Moss - 86 OPS+ - 1 year/.4145 M
Cruz - 119 OPS+ - 1 year/.408 M
Gross - 118 OPS+ - 1 year/1.255 M
Bruce - 96 OPS+ - 1 year/.4175 M
Drew - 121 OPS+ - 5 years/70 M
Hawpe - 151 OPS+ - 3 years/17.425 M
Guillen - 97 OPS+ - 3 years/36 M
Ordonez - 78 OPS+ - 5 years/75 M
Cuddyer - 131 OPS+ - 3 years/24 M
Dye - 133 OPS+ - 2 years/22 M
Swisher - 128 OPS+ - 5 years/26.75 M
Obviously, everything isn’t created equal here. Rios has another 60 million left on his contract. Same with Markakis. Giles is on his last year. But there are only 4 guys on this list with an OPS+ higher than Cuddyer’s. Compare him to guys like Winn, Dye, Guillen, Swisher, Bradley, Drew, Ordonez, etc. These are guys that have hit their free agency, and signed large contracts. His salary fits right in with those guys, and he is producing as well as, if not better, than most. Just glancing at the list, his OPS+ of 92 last year wouldn’t be out of line, compared to the contracts given to guys like Guillen and Dye.
“I wish someone could explain the following to me:”
1. Perhaps Morales calls a bad game. There’s more to baseball than hitting.
2. The Twins have no other options. You can’t play the same guys every day.
3. I don’t know if I’ve seen anyone say wait until 30, but guys tend to get better as they get closer to 28. Young’s trade value is probably at a low right now - honestly, could it really get lower? Selling low would be a bad business move. Hopefully he heats up, and teams see the ‘potential’ again.
Let me just say:
1. Howard, as usual, your blog rocks. I appreciate your take and the topics you bring up. For some reason, the level of conversation on this blog is miles above the other two.
2. Thanks to everyone for the stimulating conversation today. I might be wrong 100 percent of the time, but I really enjoy the discussion, and I appreciate the opportunity.
And in conclusion:
Baseball, it’s summer
Surge in front? Wait’ll next year?
Pittsburgh’s dealin’ Bill.
“we seem to have different ways of valuing players and looking at the Twin’s team from different perceptions”
And I respect the vast majority of the views expressed here, yours included.
Overtly, thrylos and I place very similar values on almost every player you can name, by the way. I get on his case about the covert stuff exclusively. The stuff he conjures up in his active little mind.
I’m with you Howard. I believe Gardy was justified in his anger, but him throwing a fit to the point of ejection was stupid.
Chief,BOP, thrylos, etal….And I feel very strongly both ways.
chinmusic,
your negative post earlier about not getting anything in the off season..crede has been exactly what the twins signed him to be. he’ll finish with 20+ HR and 85+ RBI, not to mention great defense. just what the twins wanted. casey blake would’ve been fine too, but don’t whine and make it sound like the twins ‘were stuck with’ crede
The lesson I hope Kubel (and others) learned last night is that when you foul a ball off your foot, even if it just grazes your shoe, you hop around like a madman and motion for the trainer. If the umpire still doesn’t give you first base after all of that, so be it.
Frankly, I think Gardy was looking for an excuse not to have to continue watching his team suck up the place and used it as an excuse to head to the clubhouse. I should have stopped watching about the same time, myself, rather than wasting another hour of my life watching that performance.
ugh.. I mean if the umpire still doesn’t call it a foul ball, obviously.
But the same rule applies if you get grazed by a pitch.
It wasn’t a total waste to watch. Blackburn had yet another good start. He gave up a lot of hits and 3 ER but was able to get out of a lot of jams.
But yeah I think Gardy was frustrated with the game and just gave up, and once again looked stupid in the process.
Nope Cuddy and Gardy already blew that one a month ago, when Cuddy was “grazed” by a pitch.
Gardy went out and argued his ass off to no avail, and eventually got ejected if my memory serves me right. Highlights aired on ESPN making Gardy look like a fool for arguing for something that never even happened.
Gardy most likely has zero cred. when it comes to umps.
So let me get this straight. Garza pitches two nice games in the playoffs (16-14 since Twins traded him) and is a hero; and Delmon bats .289 with 10 HR’s 69 RBI, Manager benches him, so he is a trade flop? Personally, I’d like to play Delmon and wait until he reaches age 24 before I declare him to be the problem with all things Twins. And, with Tolbert/Casilla and Buscher playing in the bigs, why must people still complain that Punto is the problem with this club?
Every single player on this roster has taken their turn at being “the problem” in any particular game. And only Morneau and Mauer have shown their real value this year.
This is a .500 club and it will stay a .500 club for 3 reasons: 1) The Pohlads still own the team. 2)Tickets are still selling for games. 3)They are still “close” to the division lead.
I’m not saying the Pohlads are cheap. I’m saying they will not spend any additional funds when the team is doing just well enough to keep fan interest and to keep fans buying tickets. It is strictly a business decision. Of course, as a fan, I hate that.
Pohlads have handcuffed this team to mediocrity for years.
I have no problem with what Gardy did last night. It seemed to me he was more pissed that the umpire wouldn’t ask the 3rd base ump what he saw. And really, why wouldn’t the ump do it? No harm, no foul, right? Isn’t the idea to get the call correct? If the 3rd base ump didn’t see it, which is highly possible, then Kubel is still out, but the Ump doesn’t look like such a jacka$$.
It’s like a lot of jobs. If you come up with an idea and ask your Supervisor to implement it, it isn’t going to happen. But if your Supervisor had the idea, it’s brilliant. The Ump simply didn’t want to be told what to do or how to handle the game. Stupid.
I don’t disagree with you or Gardy on the principle agrument, however as I stated before, I think Gardy’s tirade’s have more than worn out his credibility with the umps. So he argues vehemently and gets tossed-what did that solve?
The Pohlads do not make a single decision without running spreadsheets to see if the bottom line will improve. They will spend money when it brings in even more money. It’s a very fine line that they walk.
I just wish instead of watching the Tigers and wondering what it will take to catch them in the division race, the Twins would make a move that will blow away the rest of the division. But again, the return on investment will not warrant such a move.
“I have no problem with what Gardy did last night. It seemed to me he was more pissed the umpire wouldn’t ask the 3rd base ump what he saw.”
didn’t you hear? gardy only did it for the photo op.
Gardy gets plenty of photo ops from the dugout. And he gets plenty of attention from insulting his players in the press. Maybe he was just sick of watching the game and decided to leave. Best move he’s made all year.
“didn’t you hear? gardy only did it for the photo op.”
Pictures don’t lie. People do.
bop: you’re right, but let it rest, man, let it rest.
There’ll be future opportunities to continue the conflict.
another reason to love the twins.
.500
Hi Mcleod. Those are some great insights you’ve brought to the boards. I can’t believe nobody once has ever voiced an opinion such as that before.
Thank for you the unique perspective.
