Jose Guillen, taking it back and a big stretch coming up
Posted on July 2nd, 2009 – 11:12 AMBy Howard
First off, don’t know how many of you saw the highlights from Thursday’s game … but Jose Guillen made a cheap move when he took out Nick Punto on that double-play grounder. He went well out of his way on a certain double play. I mean, if it’s a close call, you absolutely have to give the baserunner the benefit of the doubt. But this one doesn’t come close. Funny to me that the Kansas City account of the game makes mention of Punto leaving the game without a whiff of how-and-why. That Morneau apparently strained his groin going for the throw on that play makes it a bit more outrageous.
How bad are the Royals right now? Gil Meche had a Liriano-like performance, throwing 121 pitches and putting on 11 base runners in six innings — and said account of the game referred to Meche as providing “a silver lining in that he resembled his old self.” The manager, Trey Hillman, said he was “pretty pleased” with his starter, which I guess if relative while watching your team get 12 hits and a walk while scoring only one run and wondering why you’re cursed with a guy like Guillen, who has played for nine teams despite five 20+ home run seasons.
Keep in mind the Royals were facing the B-minus lineup — and got snookered in the eighth, when the Twins went from 3-1 to 5-1 — by Matt ( .187) Tolbert, who smacked an RBI single on a 3-and-0 pitch with Joe Mauer on deck. That’s the takingest of take situations, unless you consider that you’re not going to see anything except a batting practice fastball. That the Twins scored their final walk on the intentional walk and two unintentional ones that followed was a fitting end.
Glen Perkins had his fourth straight solid-to-reasonable outing since coming off the disabled list. He’s given up eight runs in those 27 innings while putting only 32 runners on base. He hasn’t exactly been facing terrors at the plate in those games, and it’ll be interesting to see how he does against the Yankees in his next start.
Same goes for Scott Baker, who’ll pitch the opener of the Yankees series after not getting enough notice for pulling himself together in June, when he went 4-0, 3.20 and allowed less than one runner per inning while striking out 35 in 39 1/3.
If the Yankees rotation stays in form, the Twins will be facing CC Sabathia on Tuesday, A.J. Burnett on Wednesday and Chien-Ming Wang on Thursday. (So it looks like the Twins’ stretch of missing their opponents’ top guns is ending.) But first there’s the matter of a three-game series against the team that just happens to be three games ahead of the Twins in the standings. In other words, a good weekend that kicks off an interesting stretch that leads up to the All-Star game. So I apologize for looking ahead and expect that you won’t do the same.
One final thought: After watching Punto come back from his injury and slobberbobber his way through another stretch of hitless and poorly executed at-bats — 0-for-9 against the Royals — I went looking somewhere, anywhere for a replacement. Starting with the assumption that the Twins aren’t going to be able to get Freddy Sanchez from the Pirates, I found that the second-base market is extraordinarily thin. (Folks, Brian Roberts isn’t coming here, either.) The Twins apparently were wrong in thinking that Alexi Casilla was going to be the answer at second base — at least for this season — but that opinion wasn’t exactly a minority point of view. So I can’t join the “should have gone after Orlando Hudson” crowd.
But, on further review, Augie Ojeda isn’t any better what the current guys. My hallucination on that will hang out there on the Internet for anyone to see and hold against me, but I take it back.
Speaking on taking it back, I wonder if Gardy wishes he hadn’t gone off so publicly on Luis Ayala. If the Twins really did have a shot at an Eric Hinske-for-Ayala deal with Pittsburgh, I wonder if Gardy’s words helped douse those talks. At the same time, I have a hard time blaming Gardy on that one.
74 Responses to "Jose Guillen, taking it back and a big stretch coming up"
Ayala is to blame for being Ayala - I don’t blame Gardy for us not getting Hinske. I’m really hoping that Morneau isn’t hurt because we will need him against the Tigers this weekend. It would be so sweet to be tied for 1st place in the AL central on Sunday night and it could happen. I especially want the White Sux to lose the next three but short of that, I’ll take a sweep of the Tigers series.
I haven’t given up on Casilla. He is doing pretty well offensively in the minors. Might still be able to give us a spark. Nothing wrong with him physically.
I think the Pirates simply found what they wanted in other places. Hanrahan is better than Ayala and they were able to find a buyer for Hinske on the same day. I doubt Gardy’s piece changed the opinion of Huntington and the rest of the Pirates staff.
Is not getting Hinske hurting us THAT bad? He would have to replace Buscher or one of the outfielders, wouldn’t he? And he wouldn’t be that big of an upgrade in either case.
Unless, of course, he replaced Redmond and Morales became the primary back-up catcher. Now, THAT would make some sense. No offense to Redmond, I’m sure he’s a great clubhouse guy — which is why they’d hold on to him — but Morales is just plain better than him nowadays.
I think Ayala’s arrogance caught Gardy off guard you dont ask for a promotion when your job is on the line.
Howard,
I am still laughing about the Augie Ojeda story from you. I think that guys on here are going to remind you about that in the months ahead.. 
As for Sanchez .. If they traded Bay, McClouth, and Nady they would certainly entertain offers on Sanchez who they probably would like to move anyway because of his contract. I think that the Twins would fill a gaping hole and it would also send a message that they are doing everything they can to put a championship team on the field.
Cuddyer to 2b? Kind of far-fetched, but why not? Could then move Kubel to right, start Gomez in center, and Span in left, as a regular lineup. This would allow Morales to DH.
Need to be careful with Morneau this weekend. I think he should DH on friday and saturday, and play 1B only on sunday (assuming that Mauer will DH on sunday), and then have mondays off day to see how he’s feeling
Augie Ojeda in spanish is Nick Punto.
I been on that bandwagon Adam. Apparently it is a no go. I’d love to see it tried.
But no Kubel in RF. Have you ever seen Adam Dunn patrol LF? That is the equivalent.
I would like to see Maria Sharapova playing 2B with a short skirt on. I doubt it would help the team but i would still like to see it.
BC, do you mean Maria in a turtle skirt?
You got it Doc it would make all those errors much less painful to watch.
I don’t see why the Twins wouldn’t be able to get Sanchez.
He’s got an $8MM vesting option for 2010, and you know the Pirates don’t want that.
Granted $8MM is pretty steep for Freddy, but when you consider the fact that prior to last night’s game, Casilla/Tolbert/Punto had combined this season for a line of:
.195/.278/.234
It’s hard to argue that it wouldn’t be $8MM well spent.
I think a package could be, and should be worked out.
If not, get on the phone and call up Josh Byrnes to see what he wants for Felipe Lopez, or go for the big bat and ask about Dan Uggla.
He may only be hitting .224 this year right now, but over the past month he’s hitting .260 with 6 HR and an .839 OPS. I’d love to see hitters have to deal with Uggla in the #2 slot, with Mauer and Morneau waiting in the wings.
love to see pitchers*
In my last paragraph… not “hitters.”
Oops. 
I’d bet even money that Maria Sharapova
would hit for more power than LNP or Natty Tolbert…
She would certainly look better trying!
As long as were dreaming about 2b’s i would like to throw Aaron Hill’s name into the mix.
About Sanchez and Uggla: The Marlins are half a game behind in the NL East. There is no way they will sell now. The Pirates are 6 games behind the leader and 2.5 behind the Cubs. The 2 trades they did make helped their club this season. I am not sure that they will be willing to rebuild yet, but if the Twins dangle Casilla out there (plus) they might listen at this point.
How bout Ben Zobrist and Chase Utley. Whatever it takes!!!
LaVelle says that Duensing is up and Henn is down in Rochester - good move by BS.
Another one of Billy Smiths big Free Agent pickups is a bust….WHAT A SHOCKER. FIRE BILLY SMITH!!!!
PLEASE … Twin Cities sportswriters and sportscasters … ENOUGH of the cheap shots against our teams and bad calls against our teams. No one is out to get our teams. Report facts only, PLEASE!!!
Actually, BC of ND, Augie Ojeda in Spanish is Augie Ojeda.
Buscher at first, thats scary. The guy defense is horrible, if Morneau is out for awhile expect a lot of errors in the upcoming series. I’d rather have Cassila up here than Tolbert.
Having Nick Punto on a MLB roster is illogical
I watched the game yesterday and I didn’t think the Guillen slide was bad at all. He was trying to break up a double play in a close game. What I find amusing are Cuddyer’s comments about it though, since I’ve seen Cuddyer on many occasions slide way farther out of the base path than Guillen did. Good ole’ selective memory.
Again .. a Twins apologist. If Punto takes out Alexei Ramirez that way it’s ‘good old fashioned Twins baseball.’
And whatever you do .. for the benefit of fans of AL Central teams other than the Twins … keep Nick Punto in there going 0 for 4 every day.
David Eckstein? One year deal with San Diego, hitting .270 on the year, proven player who has won a world series. Nothing flashy, but man would it be nice to have him hitting 8th or 9th instead of Tolbert or Punto. Padres are like 15 games out of 1st place too. Would be nice to pick him up for the rest of the year if the can’t snag Sanchez.
Maybe we could try Morales at second. If this doesn’t work out, I say we have the pitchers hit so Punto doesn’t have to always make the third out!
Props, Howard for rescinding your Augie Ojeda suggestion. It takes a real man to admit when they were out to lunch. My respect for you remains intact. Speaking of respect…Brendan Harris has always had mine for his offense, but he’s really growing on me as a defensive shortstop. He may not have Ozzie Smith range, but he’s been making some pretty damn good plays.
WE NEED HELP IN THE BULLPEN.
THE END.
Stop worrying about damn Nick Punto.
Aghhhhhhhhh.
I have no problem with the play at second, you take the fielder out and try and make it look like a slide. That is baseball. Cannot take it, don’t play second or shortstop. This writer is clearly not a true baseball fan. Second, Cuddyer came up as an infielder, a shortstop I believe. He was a dreadful fielder so they moved him to outfield. This team would be better off if he could play second base, but his defense will cost them a few games. I think Gardy had it with Cuddyer tring to play third so I doubt he will make this move.
The Guillen slide was definitely dirty. You can take out the guy turning the double play IF YOU CAN REACH THE BAG, which he could clearly not. He was more than 5 feet from reaching the bag. It may, however, be addition by subtraction, because Punto is awful this year, and he is still hurt from the previous injury, forcing his swing to look even worse than normal the last two games.
How about Kennedy or Eckstein for the rest of the year?
Casilla and two mid tier minor leaguers for Snanchez. Pitt is going young.
Arthur Rhodes in the pen. $2M a year - ERA below 2.00
Howard, I think we can all write off your Ojeda suggestion as having been induced by too much time having to watch Nick struggle to do much of anything remotely close to that which would normally be expected of a major league ballplayer.
I’ve always hated piling on a guy… but he’s just struggling so bad it’s painful to watch.
And Pete… this is a blog. It’s not a news report. It’s all about opinions, whether the author/owner’s or in the comments. Chill.
I see the Cubs aquired Baker from Colorado for a minor league pitcher. Is he a guy who could have helped? How good of a prospect did the Cubs surrender for him?
But, on further review, Augie Ojeda isn’t any better what the current guys. My hallucination on that will hang out there on the Internet for anyone to see and hold against me, but I take it back.
Pain is temporary. Suck is forever.
Not that you suck. But it was a preventable mistake. We’re just going to have to work on your plate discipline.
“”Spock says:
July 2nd, 2009 at 1:27 pm
Having Nick Punto on a MLB roster is illogical”"
Comments of Pete and Spock are illogical.
Here is a shot of the Guillen slide:
cmath,
Normally my plate discipline is pretty good. At least that’s what the scouting reports say. I’ll chalk this up as something similar to Joe Mauer swinging at the first pitch and grounding into a double play.
TomK,
Nope, I’m not a “true baseball fan.” I just do this to fill a void of baseball commentary in cyberspace. I’d say that 99.5 percent of the plays at second base are totally legit — hard slides included — and I hate it when guys move out of the way standing up. But Guillen took a right turn and was heading for center field when he slid. It was a cheap shot from a career head case.
Thrylos,
Thanks for the photo. It would be a great slide if second base wasn’t two 22″ flat screen monitors to the left of the takeout.
Here is an animated .gif of the Guillen slide:
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o163/spiritualmansions/dirtyslide.gif
Excellent Howard. And you couldn’t be more right. Some slides at 2nd are “questionable”, but the slide last night was about 1 1/2 body lengths to the outfield. If Guillen was driving a car he would have gotten a ticket for an illegal right turn.
Ryan H,
that is a great gif. Shows where the slide was in relation to the base. In the NFL, that would have been a 15 yarder clipping penalty and a fine from the commissioner on Tuesday.
If you don’t want to be labeled a “whiner” quit, bashing punto and his ludirous contract. The man is batting .215 0 hr’s and about 15 rbi’s, not to bad for a 4 1/2 million. I’ll take Tolbert at 2nd and Harris at short anyday over watching Punto look like a little leaguer.
I think Guillen went to the Ty Cobb school of sliding.
I guess I’m in the minority. Most slides in to second in that situation are intended to disrupt the throw. It’s part of the game. The way the rule is interpreted, it’s interference if the slide takes place significantly outside the reach of the base. There’s no doubt this slide was well outside the path and the umpire was, accordingly, going to call the hitter out at 1B. That’s all appropriate.
I just think it falls short of “dirty”. When a runner barrel-rolls in to the legs of the SS or 2B instead of staying down in his slide until the fielder is clear, THAT’S dirty… whether at the bag or 6 feet away. That’s trying to injure a player.
I saw this slide as interference and it was going to be called that way. It falls short of my criteria for “dirty” though.
Sanchez would be great at 2nd……We need bullpen help more I think but the costs are too steep.Sanchez could help for less I think. We STILL can bring up Swarzak in some capacity also……I am so sick of Punto. We overpaid , he’s under produced and us fans have to see this debacle 5x a week it seems. Buscher / Tolbert have no right on a MLB roster. Are Arthur Rhodes stats as good as a recent poster said??? IF so , he may be an option.
JC,
what makes it dirty is that is took place 2 yards away from the bag.
Oh yeah !! Guillen gets DRILLED next time we play them. PERIOD. He went WAY out of his way……old addage is you should be able to touch 2nd base on the hard slide..Well , he was 3 ft from even dreaming of touching 2nd base….Gardy has any cajones his pitchers will be informed to DRILL him.
That’s where we simply disagree, thrylos. I don’t see a simple slide as “dirty” just because it’s away from the base. It’s outside the rules and there’s an appropriate penalty for that.
But “dirty”, to me, requires an intent to do bodily injury, not just disrupt a play.
Watch the above gif JC. Guillen kicks his legs out to get Punto. What constitutes a barrel roll?
I did watch it. A barrel-roll is when when you take out the fielder’s legs with your body. Sometimes you’ll see guys slide “late” or come up from the slide “early” so that as they roll their body, they hit the fielder with their side/hips/chest/back. That can do major damage to a fielder’s legs very easily.
In fact, OB, if you watch the .gif, and see how Guillen comes around with his body and comes up as he finishes the slide? By that time, Punto is well past him… but if he’d done THAT as he was getting to Punto, that’s what I consider a dirty take-out of a fielder.
Going out of the path but making a normal slide, kicking your legs out under the guy making the throw… sorry, I just don’t see it as dirty. It’s a rule violation… like a bunter running too far inside the baseline and causing the first baseman to have to come off the bag at first to get a throw from the catcher.
You call the guy out, that’s all.
Punto is garbage with all his fake hustle crap. We used to have a guy named Jason Bartlett, these are his 2009 stats as of today: Avg:.362 runs:43 HRs:7 RBIS:36 SB:17 and to top it off he makes 1.5 million, while Punto rakes it in at 4.5 million.
Well Guillen certainly didn’t do that. No point in arguing about the meaning of “dirty” so I’ll drop it.
Granted, my definitions are colored by the fact that I was generally one of those players that pushed the rules envelope… so my definition of dirty certainly is not necessarily “common”.
Howard…right on about the bush Guillen
and his lack of respect for all Twins!
That slide 10 ft from the 2nd base bag & roll into Punto’s legs shows what a
true “bum” this guy Guillen really is.
For those of you who did not see the game or the tape…take a look at it for what it is! Shameful!
Going out of the path but making a normal slide, kicking your legs out under the guy making the throw… sorry, I just don’t see it as dirty.
If you look at the fourth slide in the GIF sequence you’ll see that it’s more than him kicking his leg out, he has his full body up and his elbow/forearm leading to take Punto out. The only reason he didn’t complete crush Punto is that Punto was able to take an extra step out of the way. I think the fact that he was no longer going after the bag at all (not even reaching for it), six feet out of the base path, and had his body set up for maximum impact (not just disruption) make the play dirty.
Do we really want Sanchez? He just slid into first base against the Mets.
East way to take care of slides like Guillen’s - drop your arm angle and submarine the throw to first. Getting drilled in the chest will ge the runner down early and out of the way. Isn’t that the way Zolio used to do it?
Aw, c’mon Howard! I was looking forward to the “auggie doggie” references.
Do we really want Sanchez? He just slid into first base against the Mets.
Just gettin’ on Gardy’s good side ahead of time…just in case.
Again, why is Tolbert’s head not on a platter? You rubes love to go after Gomez and Young, but Matt Tolbert is awful at the plate, and yes, in the field. Just because Gardy thinks he “gets after it” doesn’t mean that he does.
Face it, Casilla should be playing every day. Oh sure, he makes some dumb mistakes and doesn’t always hustle, but he more than makes up for it with his range and arm … and he has shown some ability to hit.
While were at it, Kubel or Cuddyer should be traded, while they still have any value!
I will bet the Twins will jump right at that suggestion, Jack.
Ignorance is bliss, Jack Hammer. But the truth is Tolbert’s been okay for a couple weeks while Casilla is reportedly playing lackadaisically in AAA.
So, please go back to Detroit and hang out with Dontrelle.
I simply cannot bash Punto while guys like Tolbert and Buscher are still on the roster. While Punto may be batting abysmal at the plate, he’s not even our 2nd worst hitter! And somebody complaining about Punto dropping a ball yesterday is ridiculous, especially since the out was still recorded. And I don’t pay player salaries, so I will not compare Punto’s salary to Tolbert’s or Casilla’s. Once we get rid of Tolbert and Buscher I will then pick on the next weakest link on the roster, which may or may not be Punto.
Just got a chance to look at the shots of the Guillen slide at 2:35. Thanks Ryan, they are great! I was surprised that Nick had the ball while touching second, they are usually “neighborhood” calls. My impression on TV in real time was that Guillen COULD have reached for the bag and, although no fan of breaking up a DP in that manner, it was still no worse than what our guys have done in the past. As for sol-mo and frame by frame, they can lie also, just watch an NFL game sometime. For instance Sanantonio’s game winning NON-catch in the Super Bowl.
Ignorance is bliss, Jack Hammer. But the truth is Tolbert’s been okay for a couple weeks while Casilla is reportedly playing lackadaisically in AAA.
Ignornance is indeed bliss, romer.
Don’t mistake this as a defense for Casilla, because it isn’t, but…
1. Two weeks worth of data on any hitter, good or bad, is not very much to go on, and is a great way to draw really, really bad conclusions. There’s an old saying…anybody can hit anything over 40 ABs.
2. In this case, it’s not even true for Tolbert:
last 7 days - .267/.313/.267 .579
last 14 day - .231/.310/.231 .541
last 28 days - 200/.308/.222 .530
Season - .187/.279/.236 .514
I cannot find it in me to describe a .579 OPS as ‘okay,’ even if said OPS represents an improvement over the entire season.
A barrel-roll is when when you take out the fielder’s legs with your body. Sometimes you’ll see guys slide “late” or come up from the slide “early” so that as they roll their body, they hit the fielder with their side/hips/chest/back. That can do major damage to a fielder’s legs very easily.
From the .gif, it looks like it could have done major damage to Punto’s legs very easily. Just because it was not a textbook barrel roll doesn’t mean it wasn’t just as potentially dangerous.
I think they should have tossed him from the game. The .gif could be used to make a case for more discipline.
Need to be careful with Morneau this weekend. I think he should DH on friday and saturday, and play 1B only on sunday (assuming that Mauer will DH on sunday), and then have mondays off day to see how he’s feeling
I think they need Morneau in the line-up too badly. They really have no back-up who is in his class defensively.
Unless he’s in borderline DL condition and there’s just no way he can go, he has to be out there.
Boy, Fran, an infield of Crede, Harris, Punto, and Buscher should be adequate. Maybe we’ll have all flyballs, strike outs, liners to third and short and second, pop ups behind the plate, comebackers to the mound, batter interference, runner interference, pick offs, and, and, a forfeit. Yeah, a forfeit!
Chief,
“Tolbert:
last 7 days - .267/.313/.267 .579
last 14 day - .231/.310/.231 .541
last 28 days - 200/.308/.222 .530″
If this trend continues he should be well north of 1.000 by Sept. Just in time to help the team dominate in the playoffs.
