A great story … and words to worry about
Posted on July 14th, 2009 – 9:03 AMBy Howard
One excellent way to kill time during the All-Star Break would be to read Jim Souhan’s excellent profile on Joe Mauer, which you can find here.
The best line comes from a friend of Mauer’s who says: “Joe Mauer is ‘Shaft, 2009. The ladies all want to be with him, and the men all want to be him.”
For those who need a quick cinema history lesson, go here
For those who want to ponder Mauer’s future with the Twins, beyond his 2010 contract expiration, you can start worrying about the words of Justin Morneau, as reported by Jim: “We’ve been so close at the deadline so many times. “If he feels like we’re content being that team that is just good enough not to lose, but everybody is going to have to have a career year for us to scrape into the playoffs, I think that’s going to affect his decision a lot. It’s frustrating going out every day and hearing that ‘We want to win a World Series,’ and then not seeing more aggressiveness. I think something like that is going to affect [Mauer’s] decision more than the value of the contract. We’ve already got all the money we’re ever going to need.”
Mauer didn’t bite deep on the subject, which is understandable, other than to say: “Isn’t that why you play? To win championships? If I hit .250 and we won the World Series, I’d be happier than anyone.”
In other words, what happens for the rest of this season — with a team that’s four games out in a winnable division — could have a long-term influence on the Twins as they move into a new stadium. Target Field is looking good, but without Mauer and more top-level talent, it’ll become just another pretty space.
235 Responses to "A great story … and words to worry about"
Good point. I hope more than anything that the Twins get aggressive before the trade deadline…THIS trade deadline…to put a team on the field who can truly compete for a title. Bill Smith and the ownership group need to sit down and get to work. Twins fans have awarded this organization with great attendances this season, but mark my words…that will NOT continue if the Twins sit on their hands, put an average team on the field, and watch Mauer walk away. Target field’s seats will look much like the seats that surrounded the Expos before they folded.
this is why a FO that only cares about the amount that they gain in a season can work against them by frusterating its current players and fans for always planning for the future. I am tired of hearing that excuse from the twins as I am sure the current players are. Why not take a chance by bringing in a veteran who has good talent (Sanchez) or a starting pitcher who could really make the difference (Halladay) even if it means hurting them financially and MAYBE hurting them down the road.That is how you sign a player like mauer and get the respect from its fans. Cause who knows whether a AAA super prospect that the twins would have to give up will even make it. For every 100 excellent minor leaguers, there is probably 1 that makes it to the majors and who knows how that will pan out.
Bill Smith is terrible. He needs to step up and show us something. So far all of his moves have been bad. Santana, Garza, Bartlett, Ayala, Breslow and so on and so forth.
i am beginning to understand why johan and hunter left, even if the money was not the same it was more because the twins didnt seem to want to spend anything at the deadline when a “rent a player” could put them over the top. screw em if they pull that sh** again, why root for a team that focuses on mediocrity and not excellence. Franchise players will not wait for the “perfect storm” while the prospects in the minor leagues develop, they only have a short term of good years before they get older and lose the talent that made them superstars.
Here’s what I don’t get though. If the Twins make an effort to keep him, isn’t that the first sign that they’re trying to win?
It almost seems self-fulfilling to say “Well they don’t want to win!” and then walk away when they’re trying to resign you.
Mauer will look good in a Red Sox uniform…..Or Yankees.
He won’t be with the Twinkees.
I should also add that both players may have just handed Bill Smith leverage (”Well we can’t give you as much as New York, but what we can do is use the difference to try and bring in some more pieces around you”)
The solution is simply. Subordinate Bill Smith (I never like the chants for firing). And elevate Joe Mauer.
Make Joe Mauer the first Player-GM in baseball history.
Here’s what’s great about what Morneau said. It is EXACTLY what you want to hear from competitors.
And Mauer’s comment on batting .250 and winning it all? SAME THING.
These are consummate competitors. These are among the greatest baseball players of our time. And they have hearts and heads far bigger than their present or future wallets.
And here is what is most bleeped up about all this.
When Morneau and Mauer are talking to the media about this….that signals problems.
The front office should have these guys in the conversation. Sure, it’s not typical. Sure, it’s odd. But it’s like giving Kobe the clipboard. Giving Jordan the chance to call personnel decisions.
Obviously, to a point I’m kidding about Mauer as Player/GM (though I don’t think he could do worse than our front office has over the last 2 years).
But here is where I am quite serious. Mauer and Morneau need to be treated as leaders across this entire organization. They need to be given so much input that they would NEVER EVER want to or have to speak to the media about this.
We got correctable problems here. But make no mistakes…we have a few problems that need correcting.
I still can’t figure out why this isn’t a bigger story locally? The Cardinal fans are already getting antsy that Pujols is going to leave St. Louis because they aren’t doing enough to keep him happy, and he isn’t a FA until after the 2011 season.
It seems to me like Twins fans just assume something will get done and Mauer will take a huge hometown discount to stay with the Twins. I think that is a fantasy. If nothing else that Souhan article tells me Joe feels like the pressure here is much more than it would be in a bigger market.
I hope the Twins realize how huge it is to get Mauer signed ASAP. The longer they wait the more they will have to pony up and the higher chance that Mauer leaves to go to another team. It’s like with Hunter, when you get so close to Free Agency you might as well wait and see what kind of offers you get.
I just finished reading Souhan’s “The Joe You Don’t Know” piece and even I admit it was a good read. I say that even as I generally am not concerned with what pro athletes do in their private lives, and this includes ones who appear to be, by all accounts, perfect angels. The truth is as much as we want to, we don’t know these guys. That holds true for Mauer as well.
I’ve been critical of Jim Souhan a lot lately. Yes, this goes back to my fascination with the fact that he seemed to never press the Big Boys like Torii Hunter, but he never passed up the opportunity to take a cheap shot at Lew Ford.
His famous May 1 God-like proclamation that Joe Mauer “Isn’t, nor will he ever be, a power hitter” pretty much blew up in his face here in 2009, culminating with Mauer taking part in a showcase of power hitters on a national stage just over two months later.
Having said all that, this piece was different in that it gave you some indication of what’s going through the mind of an otherwise reserved player. See, I might not be interested in what A.J. Pierzynski or Torii Hunter are up to during their off days, but when they step up to a microphone, I’m all ears. Part of what makes sports great is the candor you get from those who affect the outcome of games. Twins fans are kind of dry in this area. It’s a Minnesota thing, I guess.
I was surprised to hear Justin Morneau voice concerns that he and Mauer want the team to be more aggressive in fielding a winner and it will have a bearing on whether or not they stay or go. You can say it’s laying the foundation for the inevitable, but I think it’s a serious message. Twins fans, as a whole, chose not to take Johan Santana seriously when he delivered a similar message late in his new contract game. This time around, we’re listening.
While Ron Gardenhire can’t be wasting his day-to-day efforts on worrying about how the Twins will be aggressive in fielding a winner in the future, he can help by ending this routine of favoring loyal, likeable veterans over optimum talent. The Pohlads and Bill Smith are the ones who clearly need to be put on notice.
Of course, let’s not ignore the money thing. Joe and Justin can conveniently claim to not care about the money, but you know their agents do (and hence, so do they). Let’s just call it what it is–Mauer will need a contract in the neighborhood of 10 years, $200 million, and the Twins best be prepared to pony up. Morneau, equally as valuable to this team in my view, will need something like 5 years, $120 million. Target Field will need to generate revenue and fans will need to realize that a new stadium means baseball is no longer cheap. Plan on spending three times as much at Target Field as you did at the Metrodome.
Let’s hope Joe and Justin remain Twins for a long time. Well done, Souhan.
This has been my point on Mauer re signing and I am glad someone with a platform is saying it. If the Twins want to keep Mauer, they need to show him they are willing to go out and get a team that can win. T’s point is well taken, that getting Mauer in itself is an effort to go out and win. But that is not enough. The team has key holes to fill and has not shown the moxie to go out and get them filled. If I was Mauer, and I saw that apathy on the part of the FO, I would walk. Why would a player with that much talent be content to sit on a team that is to content to just not lose?
Just wondering if the Twins have such super prospects in their system that they don’t want to trade and jepordize the future than why in the hell aren’t these prospects being given the opportunity at the bigs. The present roster has a handfull of either underachievers or over rated talent by the manager and/or front office.
i say lets form a large parade and storm the twins FO and demand Billy Boy pull his head out of his a** and attempt to pull together a winning team and not be a bunch of cheap bastards. attention pohlands: if you guys dont put that extra revenue towards signing players that will help the team then i will pack mauer’s bags form him!
This was my immediate response as well, Howard. Funny how when Johann and Torri said it, they were bad guys….
Ironically, Smith has tried to win by trading for Young. Of course, it has blown up in his face so far….This mess is still largely Ryan’s mess, not Smith’s. Unless you are the Yankees, it’s pretty hard to turn over half of your hitters in 18 months (which is what they needed to do when Smith took over). But, if Smith continues to be ineffective in making trades (either making bad ones, or failing because “the other teams just wanted too much” {like the Twins are awesome at developing hitters}), then we’ll need to start ripping on Smith too.
If I was M&M, I’d probably leave. This organization has shown no willngness to agressively add players in their prime. None. Notta. Nil. Why would any competitor want to be here?
Mike,
The “bad guys” question is an interesting and valid one. I wonder if it had to do with the fact that Torii seemed to be saying something different every 45 seconds and there was suspicion that Johan never intended to stay? Not saying that’s *the* difference as much as bringing it up to further discussion on your good point.
His famous May 1 God-like proclamation that Joe Mauer “Isn’t, nor will he ever be, a power hitter” pretty much blew up in his face here in 2009, culminating with Mauer taking part in a showcase of power hitters on a national stage just over two months later.
The only reason that is any kind of “famous” is because you keep bringing it up. Even 2-3 months later.
Should I go back to 2008 when you continually called Mauer a “Singles Hitter” and that he wouldn’t be suited for the #3 spot in the lineup?
Congrats, you found a time when press speculation was wrong. Yippee. Get in line.
mike you are right on the money, makes my blood boil just thinking about the sh** they pull, “oh we are small market we cant spend money”. yes you can!!! your owners are the richest pieces of sh** in the league!
too many times we have watched this team come close and management fail to upgrade and go for it. Usually the line is “getting someone back from the DL or up from the minors is like trading for them”. Enough already. What the off season failed accomplish should be corrected as this team is in a position to contend. What better way to go into a new stadium then with a defending playoff caliber team. We have a very good farm system, but sometimes you have to part with talent to get talent. Freddy Sanchez would look good in the #2 hole. But do something that improves this team and sends a message that we are willing to win and not just compete.
ben,
Your points would go down better if you did less name calling, even with people who wouldn’t return your phone calls. Thanks.
“Joe Mauer is ‘Shaft, 2009.”
Good one. Joe should make a movie someday, maybe with a baseball related one word title. Shaft is close. Maybe “Barrel”.
“Cup”?
If one were to name the all time Twins team (with some position juggling to get them all in there), it might look like this:
OF: Hunter, Puckett, Oliva
3b: Killebrew
SS: Versalles
2b: Carew
1b: Morneau
C: Mauer
LSP: Santana
RSP: Blyleven
Relief: Nathan
In other words, on an 11 man all time
Twins team, 5 of them were together as the core of this decade. We let two get away. Would they still be here with a more proactive attitude in the front office? Will we keep the others? This could have been the golden era of Twins baseball, but we’re stuck in mediocrity, pulled down by bottom of the lineup slugs who are marginal major leaguers.
I fear that the legacy of this decade may be what might have been rather than what truly was based on a paralyzed front office. A front office man of a bygone era was just added to the team hall of fame; pity that none of the present warm bodies aren’t on a similar trajectory.
If I was Mauer, and I saw that apathy on the part of the FO, I would walk.
By that same token though, the Twins can’t exactly go out and start making moves unless they know for 100% one way or another that Mauer will be around.
I’m hoping they’re in the background working with Mauer to get something done, because otherwise it’s going to be a HUGE distraction during the offseason when the Twins should then be focusing on making decisions regarding the large crop of young players up with the big club.
Keep talking joe. After all, these kinds of sentiments made such a HUGE difference when uttered by hunter and santana–NOT!! Stay or leave–the team doesn’t care about winning it all as long as they make their numbers. They just don’t care.
T: Right on. Ramos is untouchable until Mauer is resigned as an example.
Howard,
i agree swearing will not get anything done, but being passionate about the team is important and the apathy the FO has shown whether they were doing it for the best financial reasons or not is IMO why they lost Santana. This will play a large roll in mauer’s signing. Its frusterating seeing a such great players waste their seasons on a mediocre team.
Also firing insults at a fan wont help either, just FYI.
By that same token though, the Twins can’t exactly go out and start making moves unless they know for 100% one way or another that Mauer will be around.
Why? That makes no sense at all.
And even if you’re right, then simply sign Mauer. It’s not rocket science. There’s no MLB rule that says you can’t sign your superstar catcher during the season.
Imagine –
Lineup:
LF Denard Span
C Joe Mauer
1B Justin Morneau
CF Torii Hunter
DH Jason Kubel
RF Michael Cuddyer
3B Joe Crede
2B Freddy Sanchez
SS Jason Bartlett
Rotation:
SP Johan Santana
SP Matt Garza
SP Nick Blackburn
SP Scott Baker
SP Kevin Slowey
‘Pen:
LHP Glen Perkins
LHP Jose Mijares
RHP Matt Gurrier
LHP Craig Breslow/ RHP Rob Delaney
RHP (Pat Neshek for 2010)/(Juan Cruz for 2009)
LHP Francisco Liriano
RHP Joe Nathan
Bench:
MI Alexi Casilla
CI Brian Buscher
C Jose Morales
OF/1B Garret Jones / OF David Winfree
Would have been nice, yeah?
The Twins management has not helped the team much in recent years, so Justin raises a good point. There was a time when the Twins would go out and get someone at the break who could actually help the club in the stretch drive.
And even if you’re right, then simply sign Mauer.
What is “simply”? Give him whatever he wants without even bothering to negotiate?
Stay or leave–the team doesn’t care about winning it all as long as they make their numbers. They just don’t care.
Right. They don’t care about winning at all. Because we all know that even if they lost 162 games a year they’d still bring in all KINDS of revenue…right?
Why? That makes no sense at all.
I should add, it does make sense…because if Mauer sticks around for a while, you have a TON of minor league catchers that become expendable.
Unless you think they should trade Morales and Butera, and then hope to god that Ramos is a quality starter that never gets hurt.
Even with a .500 record the Twins are in the top 5 for attendance for the first half of the season. It sure would be nice to have management reward those fans by making a move or two so we can make a legitimate run at the playoffs.
Howard,
I also believe that is what you basically indicated in your short column, I was simply expressing it with a bit more emotion. If you tell me that you haven’t been angry at the FO at some point then you need check your pulse. Just my 2 cents take it as you like.
Howard, I think it is clear the Johann didn’t want to be here, so that could be the genesis of frustration with him and his statement. Torri, otoh, I believe would be a Twin right now if Ryan would have acted a year earlier. I’m not Souhan fan, but his other article about the look of this team had they just signed Torri, was enlightening.
Yes, Torii was/is something of a loud mouth. But I don’t know why people would say he was anything but a serious competitor who just wanted this FO to TRY to get a 3B or DH in the glory years earlier this decade.
If giving up Mulvey, Guerra, Casilla and say Gutierrez for Sanchez and Capps increases your chances of getting Joe Mauer to sign an extension by say 10-20% this offseason, isn’t it worth doing even if that’s a lot to give and we miss still miss the play-off or lose in the 1st round. It shows Mauer and Morneau we’ll try to do what it takes. And neither of those two are rent-a-players so they will still contribute next year.
The Pohlads and Smith simply cannot allow this to happen. Hunter was a different situation in that I think most of us agreed giving him 5-6 years was not wise. That said, if they’d offered the 3/$45 deal a year earlier, he’d probably have taken it. Johan was a bad mistake in that they simply waited to long, and by July 2007 he was never going to sign here no matter what we offered him. But Terry Ryan knows he screwed that up and Bill Smith needs to learn from his old boss’s mistake.
No one wants to see Joe Mauer leave or Justin Morneau either. I think everyone wants to see a World Series but lets get real, and this goes to Joe Mauer too. If the Twins have to spend a huge chunk of change on a two players out of 25, how can they honestly afford to pay another 5 or six players of the same talent and caliber of Joe and Justin? Oh and we can’t forget Joe Nathan either in this equation. It is a ridiculous notion on the part of anyone to suggest that spending more money is how you win World Series. The Yankees have the highest payroll in the majors and how many have they won in the new milennium? NONE! Why you ask? Its because a team does not have the word “I” in it. The Yankees and other high priced teams are all about egos, Joe Mauer has shown himself to be someone that seems to not be quite so enraptured with himself that many other former Twins ala Chuck Knoblauch, Torii Hunter, Johan Santana & several others have been. We all remember how successful Mr Knoblauch was when he left Minnesota. Mr. Santana has not exactly lit the world on fire in New York into his 2nd season with the Mets now has he? Torii has been decent, but he is not yet wearing a ring either, now is he? Face it folks, there is far more comraderie and chemistry in assembling a team that wins it all than there is in a team made up of overpaid millionaires.
ben,
Just stating my preferences. I appreciate your passion and your opinions. As for my pulse, I try keeping it in the 60s.
Right, Howeda. If we sign Torii early like you say, we don’t make the Young/Harris trade. Then we’d have Torii and Bartlett with Garza in the rotation, which would be pretty good I think.
Pohlad’s will do just enough to keep Twin’s competitive and playing in the one of the weakest division in MLB for years will always keep Twin’s competitive fans have proven they will settle for an average spunky team, we even gave Pohlad’s a brand new stadium meanwhile the team salary has been slashed the past 2 years
yep plenty of evidence Pohlads real care about winning, history refresher Daddy Carl offered this franchise for contraction so he could get a pile of money as payoff..
What is “simply”? Give him whatever he wants without even bothering to negotiate?
Mauer is 16 months away from entertaining offers as a free agent. Don’t you think the Twins should know by now pretty much what it will take to resign him? Shouldn’t they already have been ‘negotiating’ with him?
T: Right on. Ramos is untouchable until Mauer is resigned as an example.
This is EXACTLY what Morneau (and others before him) and many fans are complaining about…the idea that you can’t POSSIBLY try to help the current team because, dear me, whatever would happen in 2011?
Explain that to Boston, Aaron. Or Philly. Or the Angels. The Yankees have won more games than the Twins, against harder competition. Tell you what, let’s switch the Yankees’ and Twins’ divisions, and see who makes the playoffs and who doesn’t.
It’s about great players.
As for Santana, he has led the league for the last 1.5 year, in lack of run support (in terms of this stat: starts in which you go at least 6 innings while giving up 2 or less runs, and you leave with your team losing). You may want to look at things other than W-L record to judge how well Santana has pitched.
I should add, it does make sense…because if Mauer sticks around for a while, you have a TON of minor league catchers that become expendable.
While I’m on a roll…if the Twins truly do have a TON of minor league catchers that would make good trade bait, do you really believe removing a couple hundred pounds from that TON would somehow cripple the Twins in the future?
“Face it folks, there is far more comraderie and chemistry in assembling a team that wins it all than there is in a team made up of overpaid millionaires.”
a bunch of friendly Tolberts and LNPs will never win anything.. Yankees have a real shot at WS ring virutally every year Twin’s haven’t had a real shot at winning a playoff series since 1991 we can play the “money doesn’t buy a ring” card but there is a minimum amount of money that needs to be spent to truly contend and Pohlad’s haven’t done it
Chief: you’re a bright guy. You must know that any business that does not have a business plan for the future is doomed to failure. I stand by my Ramos as untouchable until Mauer resigns comment. Do we really want a return to the catcher 2000 problem that was discussed in the all time worse twins post?
I like Morneau’s comments. He is a guy locked in for many years and apparently likes it, but still offers up some downsides to the team. Maybe this sort of commentary means more from a guy that is staying as opposed to guys almost out the door.
well said Chief and Mike !!!
Good points Shawn. I just wish he wouldn’t say stuff like, “We’ve already got all the money we’re ever going to need.”
Well if Twins actually do something then this problem goes away, either Jack Wilson or Freddy Sanchez and maybe Jarod Washburn would all look good in twin uniforms
Howard,
i know since you are a columnist you cannot bluntly put things or you will be in section 220 without a voice, as far as the star trib goes. i am not trying to pick a fight, we are both twins fans. However misplaced my anger might be you have to admit the FO’s apathy wears on you. I realize economics will ultimately decide what the FO does and it will be a shame if those economics decide the fate of the best catcher in the game. Baseball is a business too, but things like this cant always be broken down into dollars and cents.
I think what he is saying about the money is…. no matter how much he gets it will be more than he ever needs…. if he likes what is going on here he should stay.
the idea that you can’t POSSIBLY try to help the current team because, dear me, whatever would happen in 2011?
I don’t think you get the argument being presented Chief. Maybe it’s my fault because I made it first instead of letting somebody else who isn’t me say the same thing but with a different moniker.
1) The Twins have three catchers that they looked at as potential backups (aside from Redmond). Morales/Ramos/Butera.
2) If Mauer is signed longterm, two of those three become expendable right off the bat. And since the third is going to be a career backup, they can afford to keep maybe the second best in their eyes comparred to the best.
3) Meanwhile, if Mauer is not signed…then I would say only one of those three becomes immediately expendable, but it would less likely be the one that could command the most in a trade.
What you’re basically saying is that the Twins should trade out their best catching prospects without knowing if they’ll be able to keep their current starter.
This is the exact thing that the Twins got absolutely reemed for by the press and fans for in 2008. They traded away Garza…who was at the time considered to be the “Ace” should Santana be traded.
Giving up Garza and Bartlett for Young and Harris is the kind of risky move people wanted, but then it bit them in the butt when they also ended up failing to keep Santana and thus were out one ace and one potential ace.
The Twins can deal one of those three catchers NOW to try and get some help, but they’d be able to be far more flexible with who and how many once they knew if they had Mauer.
You must know that any business that does not have a business plan for the future is doomed to failure. I stand by my Ramos as untouchable until Mauer resigns comment
I agree that business’s need a plan for the future.
I think you’re ignoring the fact that businesses need a plan for the present, and near future, as well.
If Ramos is standing in the way of a deal because the Twins have NO IDEA if they can resign Mauer, that’s a problem. A big problem. On many levels.
Ramos should be an example of someone the Twins are dangling, because he’s got some value, and because the Twins are set at catcher for the forseeable future.
T says: “Here’s what I don’t get though. If the Twins make an effort to keep him, isn’t that the first sign that they’re trying to win?”
No, it shows they don’t want to lose their no. 1 marketing piece. As long as they have Joe, they have butts in the seats and jersey sales. FIRE is right. The FO keeps doing just enough to keep the team competative in a crappy division, but not enough for us ever to get back to the WS.
Sign Mauer first? I think that Justin made the point that if the FO does not start showing a willingness to build a winning team and add key missing pieces, Joe may not sign. Cart. Horse.
Wash, so would Milton Bradley, but who wants that hot dog?
As an addendum:
Right now it sounds like this Tolleson fellow is who people are expecting to be next year’s starting 3B.
So let’s say the Twins have an offer on the table, they can land Sanchez if they build a package that includes Casilla and Tolleson.
Now, Casilla is expendable because Sanchez is the starting 2B, and would be next year as well (since at this point it looks like he’ll reach his incentives)
But the Twins also end up dealing who they looked at as one of the guys to play 3B.
Now let’s say the same deal is on the table, but the Twins have indications that they’ll be able to resign Crede for another season.
Suddenly that trade looks like less of a risk, as they’ll have Sanchez, and Tolleson would be blocked for another year by Crede anyway.
I think that Justin made the point that if the FO does not start showing a willingness to build a winning team and add key missing pieces, Joe may not sign. Cart. Horse.
It’s a double edged sword. You can do what you can to “please” Joe, but then you potentially run out of resources to give him the offer he wants.
I’d say at least find out what Mauer’s looking for, so you have an idea what you’d have left to work with around him.
Otherwise, again, you risk investing in a team built around Joe Mauer batting 2/3 and then suddenly he’s gone.
Okay, argument for thought. :”there is a minimum amount of money that needs to be spent to truly contend”. What is that minimum? You have the really large payroll teams that lure players every year dangling ridiculous amounts of money in front of these kids. These guys get their money and other up and coming players ala Morneaus and Mauers want their fair share of the wealth, so the prices to sign decent talent goes up every year. In an economy where most of us will never earn as much in a year as some of these players make in a three game series. You cant honestly defend that and say that its okay. Shouldnt there be some fiscal responsibility in sports as there is in every other business in the United States? Regardless of how much money the Pohlads have, how many more millions will the Twins have to spend to reach your hypothetical “minimum?” And when we spend at or above that “Minimum” will we have a World Series because we are a contender? We were picked before this season to be a contender, we have a rotation that has been spotty. We have several players who performed really well last year that have not done as well as expected. We have players on this team, stars mind you that strike out with runners in scoring position when last year we lead the lead in clutch hitting. We have boneheaded young players like Alexi Casilla who was a key contributor last season that seems to like to showboat on the field like he has been criticized for previously. We have Delmon Young, a player that I cringe every time he starts running towards a fly to right. Bill Smith made a mistake in trading for Delmon, I dont think anyone will argue with that, but on paper he looked pretty good. Bartlett was a decent player here, good and solid, never a star like he has proven to be in Tampa. Garza and Gardie locked horns when he was here, now, he is doing exactly what Gardie tried to get him to do (actually throw different pitches not gas on every pitch) and he is successful in Tampa. For those of us that lament the annual shoulda, coulda, woulda, I would not want Gardies or Bill Smiths jobs if you paid me a million bucks. They are far more qualified to make baseball decisions than most of the people who comment on how the Twins should do this or the Twins could have done that instead.
The Twins have 3 superstars and are moving into a new stadium next year, its time for the Twins to stop being the plucky team and start being recognized as a contender on the national stage
Yes its going to cost them, but if they have the big name stars and play great ball they’ll make plenty of money (via tv and radio contracts, merchandising, etc)
A new stadium will only guarantee good attendance for two years (maybe 3), fighting for a championship keep those seats filled for a lot longer.
I think you’re ignoring the fact that businesses need a plan for the present, and near future, as well.
And 2010 (Mauer’s contract year) isn’t the near future?
Wouldn’t it be great to have Mauer locked up and then be able to deal two of Morales/Butera/Ramos to get some bullpen or infield help?
My biggest beef with former G.M. Terry Ryan was that he sat on his hands too long.Ryan was actually on record as saying he “hoped Baseball would come to it’s senses” and salaries would go down.A great fantasy but not wise thinking for a MLB G.M.
Santanta and Hunter were prime examples of Ryan wringing his hands and failing to be proactive.I wonder if former Wild G.M. Doug Risebrough took lessons from Ryan in the art of doing nothing.
Both Santana and Hunter could have been signed before it got to the point of no return,and probably for less money than they eventually got.I gave Bill Smith a pass on those two because by the time he came on board the water was already over the dam.
One would hope Mr.Smith would have learned from the problems left him by TR.He did lock up Morneau, but Joe Mauer needs to be resigned before the end of this season.
Smith also needs to prove to Mauer and the remaining core players that the Twins are serious about putting a legitimate contender on the field.That means not being afraid to pull the trigger on a trade that would provide immeadiate help.The Casilla call up should be about a two week audition before pulling the plug and getting Freddie Sanchez,if it’s not to late.And that should just be the start.The pitching staff needs help also.
If Mr. Smith needs inspiration he should just stop what he’s doing and think to himself “What would Kenny Williams do?”I guarantee the White Sox and Tigers for that matter, will not be idle as the Trade deadline nears.
Wouldn’t it be great to have Mauer locked up and then be able to deal two of Morales/Butera/Ramos to get some bullpen or infield help?
Yeah, it would. What’s stopping them?
Yes, find out what Mauer wants, negotiate, sign him. Stop sitting on your hands.
Lifelong fan, 27 now, love the Twins more than any other team in any sport but, I swear to God, if they dont do everything reasonable to keep Mauer and try to win a championship with him, I will abandon the franchise until the Principals are all gone. From my keyboard to Bill Smith’s eyes…
Stopping them from signing Mauer? Thier silly little game of not negotiating during the season
Stopping them from dealing two of the catching prospects? See above.
Just get it done so we can move on!
Planning is neccesary. The thought of the 2011 catching depth chart being Morales/Butera makes me uneasy.
“Should I go back to 2008 when you continually called Mauer a “Singles Hitter” and that he wouldn’t be suited for the #3 spot in the lineup?”
T,
In 2008 Mauer was a singles hitter who wasn’t a classic 3-spot guy. The difference here is, unlike Souhan, I wasn’t telling the world “We’ve reached the point in Joe Mauer’s career where we know exactly who he is and who he isn’t…”
Souhan has one of about four jobs left in Minnesota coveted by every sportswriter and sportswriter-wannabe, so in my view, that’s what makes his work subject to a higher level of scrutiny than the average blog commentator. He also, as most journalists do, accepts plenty of bouquets and brickbats.
When he comes out with such an authoritative and forceful summation about Minnesota’s number one sports figure on the much-anticipated return to the lineup and that take proves to be a metaphoric flailing strikeout given the level of force with which it was issued, then yes, I think the writer should be impeached with that for a while.
Souhan didn’t write “I’m not sure Joe Mauer will ever develop a power stroke based on what we’ve seen so far.” He took the next step, essentially declaring himself the chief baseball evaluator and prematurely summarized the essence of Joe Mauer’s entire baseball career all at once by using the verbage he did.
Sure, my critique could fall on a lot of tired, deaf ears. But I think it’s still warranted…and I also, for the record, have yet to see Souhan publish an acknowledgement of how badly he whiffed with that proclamation. Not that Mauer cares, of course.
Those are words that Bill Smith and the Pohlads need to hear directly from Mauer’s mouth. Either spend some money on real talent, or I will be terrorizing you with pinstripes.
kjb thats exactly what a lot of twins fans including myself feel like. how can you follow a team who loses the best catcher in the game, how? there will be no good explanation in my mind. even if i hear they offered him 200 mill and he doesnt take i wont blame mauer for being greedy, i will blame the FO for failing to sign able person players in front of him, like Sanchez or another quality starting pitcher. Now is the time they need to wake up and make signings, because if they wait until after this season is over, i dont expect mauer to sign.
I don’t know if the Twins are talking with Mauer or not,but the “we don’t talk during teh season” thinking needs to stop.And they have broke from that in the past.If Smith doesn’t see Morneau and Mauers comments as a shot across the bow,then the ship may already be sinking.
Howard,
Completely unrelated - those adds you guys started having at the top of the blogs are intrusive and annoying. If you accidentally move your cursor over them it’s like a booby trap.
I understand you need to have ads to make money, but if you want a little feedback, they incite resentment (and I work for one of the businesses that had one of those advertisements).
I’m sure your sales team knows more about whether they’re successful or not, and if they are, I guess you have to keep them. But just sayin - they’re annoying.
I do appreciate all the free content you, LaVelle, and Joe provide. Thanks
Can anyone recall when Latroy and Everyday Eddie started complaining about their next season contracts during the season I believe in 2003 or 2004? It was a result of an article published in this very paper about the likelihood of the Twins resigning them the following season. Do you remember how those two players started grumbling in the clubhouse about not feeling that they were getting the respect they deserved and the Twins tanked the rest of the season? Come on people let the Twins finish this season and worry about the likelihood of the Twins finding a way to sign Joe long term over the winter when contract talks are SUPPOSED to be discussed. This team has enough to worry about without having the prognosticating public already having the Twins most popular player ever already playing in Yankee pinstripes or in Red Sox Nation. There was alot of talk in the medai about Kirby signing in one of those cities or even in his hometown of Chicago at one point well before the negotiations even began and the Twins found a way to keep him a Twin for the rest of his career, injury shortened as it was.
I’ve been a front office apologist in the past, but I really haven’t been impressed with Smith. I really hope he changes my mind.
Yeah, and the FO was content to keep Kirby, their then no. 1 marketing piece, and surround him with mediocrity the rest of his playing days. Hey! We won two WS, and Kirby gets fans to the game and keeps selling jerseys! We don’t need to build a contending team around him b/c people will pay to see Kirby and his AAAA side-kicks. Think Mauer wants that? I don’t think so. The Twins waited to talk to Hunter and Santana. That did a lot of good.
My quick take on the Mauer contract thing…
I think Mauer will remain a Twin, but I wouldn’t be shocked if he ends up elsewhere, whether it’s due to money, desire to win, or a desire to just be one of the guys.
I’m not bothered there hasn’t been daily stories on the progress of Mauer’s contract negotiations. I think this is a case where both parties pretty much know what the deal is and the only thing that would put a wrench in it is if the agent started to demand more and more.
I really, really admire Joe Mauer. But I’m not one of these guys who will stop watching the Twins if he ends up elsewhere.
That having been stated, I still shake my head at the thought that the only so-called “star” who came through our system and retired as a Twin during this modern-era of Twins baseball is Brad Radke. Brad Radke was the one the Twins wrote a blank check to. Does that fascinate anyone else as well?
I don’t know why the root of all these problems is not exposed- it’s Bill Smith. The man is velcro with the fans- horrible trades, bad free agent pickups, ignoring needs and not making deals. The man is utterly incompetent. It’s time to quit blaming the Pohlads and giving Smith a free pass. If he continues to sit on his hands he should be quickly canned after we fail to make the playoffs this year
The Puckett situation was really quite different.The money he signed for is chump change by todays standards.Also,Puckett had his two WS rings.I’m not saying he wouldn’t have wanted another,but that part of his career had been fulfilled.
At the time he was happy here.Given what happened to his personal life later,maybe a change would have been good for him,we’ll never know.
And Kay brought up a great point about what Puckett paid for with respect to signing his contract.He spent his last years(Hrbek also)playing out the string with little hope of winning.I can’t believe they both didn’t realize that.
But Mauer and Morneau haven’t won anything yet,and are in the prime of their careers.Puck and Herbie were on the way down when they signed their last deals.
Bill Smith is not the root of all the problems. Has he made some mistakes? Absolutely. But to say that all of the problems are due to Smith is to suggest that Terry Ryan (or someone else) would have had significantly different results and I don’t buy it.
I have news for you guys the only person that Bill Smith needs to impress is Jim Pohlad.
It’s simple, really. Superstars like Mauer and Morneau want to play for a contender. The “We’ve already got all the money we’re ever going to need.” quote tells us they like it here, would probably take a reasonable discount, but need to see a team around them that could concievably win more than the central division.
We have been notified.
The part that frustrates me with these comments from players is they leave out the key element of WHO exactly they want off the club to get better. It does little good to talk about how rotten the front office is at providing the team a chance to win, when you’re only identifying one or two guys as ‘good enough’.
I mean we all have out pet theories, and I’m sure Justin would never throw any guys under the bus intentionally. He has, however, managed to throw everyone BUT Mauer under it with that sort of comment. I can’t imagine anyone being particularly bothered by the comment, since they know to consider the source (One of those Souhan chop jobs).
Intriguing discussion today. It seems to me that the Twins’s “business plan” in recent years has been at odds with what a lot of fans (and even players) seem to want: that is, many want the club to “go for broke” rather that being satisfied with contending in a weak division and building for a future that never seems to get here. Front office timidity was one of my frustrations with the Ryan regime, so count me in with those who think the club should go for broke during Mauer’s and Morneau’s prime. However, going for it (and by that, I mean signing a free agent or two and making a trade or two that does, in fact, weaken the future to strengthen the present) does not guarantee success. Think Texiera to the Braves for Andrus, Salty, and several other good, young players. Didn’t exactly work out. If you want the club to make a bold throw like that, you have to be willing to accept that injuries, unlooked for declines, and a host of other factors could get in the way of the ultimjate prize and usher in an era of painful rebuilding. If that happens, we in the “go for broke camp” can’t rip the FO for throwing away the club’s future.
Yeah, it would. What’s stopping them?
Who said it was stopped?
Not that Mauer cares, of course.
Or any of us, really. Well except you. I guess the rest of us have learned to tune out sports commentators who make stupid comments and not expect any sort of apology later.
But of course, I suppose you of all people TOTALLY expected Mauer to go ahead and match his career high in HRs in the first few months.
The Puckett contract was the biggest in baseball at the time - you can’t call that chump change (even if by today’s standards it is small).
Terry Ryan’s regime (of which Smith was a part) is the root of the problem, Smith is just the tree growing out the side of that tree (and starting to lay his own roots).
You can’t fix a baseball team in 18 months. The holes that are here are here because the minor league system is barren of great hitting prospects (according to the Twins themselves, before the 2008 draft - they said that). They are also here because Ryan and team refused to “do things the wrong way” and sign free agents (like those idiot Red Sox), or to trade for players in their prime (or prime earning year) (like those stupid Angels, Red Sox and others). Finally, they are still here because of the terrible trades Smith has made (and yes, some of us questioned them at the time).
After i read Souhans article i thought it was kind of sneaky the way he got Justin to talk about how he was feeling in an interview about Mauer.
How about taking a different approach to this - I just hope that Souhan’s article can get a little more national attention, whether through ESPN or mlbtraderumors.com, so it can seem to be a sense of urgency to the FO and not something they can just sweep under the rug. Signing more scrap heap players and making a decent offer to Mauer without any substantial World Series run help is not going to get it done this time. I can see huge reprocussions from the fan base if this situation is not handled well.
Even if they sign Mauer, thereby bankrupting their payroll permanently, they will still fill in the lineup with AAA players and washed up dollar store finds. We are still doomed to hover around .500 for all time, with or without Joe.
mww, the trade with the Rays two offseasons ago obviously hasn’t worked out, but the trade was made specifically for the purpose of getting the club a good, young bat. That’s the risk you run when you trade potential for potential. The fact is, Bill Smith tried to improve the club with that move. He wasn’t trying to save money or anything of that nature. It was purely a baseball move. While I respect the fact that several people questioned the trade at the time, I think Smith has to at least be given credit for trying, and did anybody really predict DY was going to be this bad?
I would have been happy and would still be happy if the trade didnot include Bartlet and Harris. An article I read at the time stated that this was added to the original deal. We got hoodwinked by the Rays GM IMHO.
Other ben is right. Those pop out ads are right. I am a ad rep for a newspaper in the different state and completely different level, and I realize how much they must sell for. But they really do annoy the hell out of me and it creates a horrible negative impact in my mind. Please try to talk to someone in the ad department if you can. The leaderboard ads are still very effective.
I hate to be bombastic, but you’d have to expect a backlash if they don’t figure out a way to lock him up. He’s every bit as important to this team as Pujols is to the Cardinals. I personally could not stomach seeing him in another uniform, and we all know who the likely suitors would be, which makes it all the worse. Maybe the new stadium will change the economics, but I have my doubts. You’d have to expect they will start negotiating with him during the offseason, so we shall see…
Who said it was stopped?
Uh, you did.
When you told us the Twins couldn’t possbibly trade any minors leaguers because they have no idea if Mauer will be here in 2011.
Agreed boneyar, and I even said that earlier this thread - “the ironic thing is that Smith has tried to win now” with that Garza/Young trade, but he got it wrong. Between that trade and the “haul” for Santana, I’m not convinced he knows how to make a good deal (nor am I yet convinced he doesn’t, 0-2 is a small sample size, even for a GM).
As to Young:
Not this bad, but yes, some of us on these blogs predicted that he was just at best an average OF (and that seems overly optimistic now) and that you shouldn’t trade Garza and your starting SS for at best an average player.
Dear Front Office,
I am rolling over in my grave at the lack of aggressiveness by management over the last few years. If I took the same approach in my at bats your fine club would have never won a World Series. Take the Kirby approach and be aggressive. Forget about the focus on the bullpen. The real issue is the top of the pitching staff. We have no ace. World Series contenders have two. Since the division is likely to be weak for many years, disgorging yourself of talent would not be as harmful to your future as you may think. Get involved in the Halliday sweepstakes in a major way. Trade your best three prospects and one or two current major league players to get the deal done. Halladay and the m&m boys gives you a real shot at the playoffs and legitimate shot to actually win a game or two there. Now that would be like swinging at a Charlie Liebrandt hanging change-up! Go get Halladay and I will rest easy in my grave.
Kirby
And, everyday I wish I was wrong about how good Young was so far, and hope that he’ll be better in the future. I’d really like to be wrong about that.
Regarding the Pucket contract, he signed that in the winter of 1992, 14 months after they won the World Series and 3 months after they finished a close 2nd to Oakland, who was at the end of a mini-dynasty. There was no reason at the time for Puckett to think that the Twins were about to enter an era of being completely over-matched. If he had, would he have taken the deal? Who knows.
mww, I also ferverently wish DY will get better. If he was even average . . .
mike,
Delmon’s still gots lotsa upside. He IS only 23 yrs old.
I’m actually glad to see comments like Morneau’s. It would be foolish to assume that they weren’t rooted in actual discussions about the subject between he and Joe. You know they’ve talked about this.
Mauer is not the type to make waves publicly on his own. That’s unfortunate, perhaps.
But the only way the FO gets the message that they can’t simply assume they’ll keep these guys forever without a serious effort to upgrade the roster is when one of them says it out loud.
Sure the FO should be negotiating with Mauer’s agent now. But it takes two to negotiate. It sounds to me like Mauer’s waiting for an indication that he’s not going to be standing on the field in a suit 15 years from now and saying the same thing Radke had to say, “My one regret is that we never brought home a championship.”
If I were Mauer, there’s no way I’d be talking about a long term contract with the Twins right now either. I’d be telling them (through my agent of course), “put some effort in to improving this team and we’ll talk.”
As for Morneau not singling out team mates that should lose their jobs or be traded, that doesn’t matter to me at all. It doesn’t take a genius to see what areas need improvement. Every guy on that roster knows it. If you’re a middle infielder, a middle reliever, a starting pitcher, or even one of the “surplus” of outfielders, if you don’t want to lose your roster spot, there’s an easy way to make sure you don’t. Start playing better baseball.
If you can’t/won’t do that, you’re expendable and you can’t whine when they find someone better than you to do your job (or use you in a trade to get someone that improves another area).
Mauer’s agent called Smith and said they’d like to negotiate during the season. Smith said, “No, we don’t do that.”
Sound likely?
Good insight today per the norm on Howard’s blog.
One point I haven’t seen made yet is that even if the Twins are aggressive and get a good 2B or RP this July it in no way guarantee’s that Mr. Mauer will remain a Twin. If he wants a championship and Boston is loaded (which should be the case) and they push hard to get him (which they will) he very well may head east.
JimCrikket pretty much nailed it right on the head.
I like Kirby’s idea of getting Halladay, but how? He’ll be pitching in a couple hours in the All-Star game, I’ll scout him. I scouted the HR Derby last night. They should use pitching machines and have your old coach or grampa or somebody feed it balls. That would result in more homers, IMO.
When it comes to large contracts I do wonder how much leeway the FO has. I cannot recall the budget percent that is allocated for talent by the Pohlad’s but do seem to recall that it is pretty rigid. How rigid will they be when it comes to Mauer?
“As to Young:
Not this bad, but yes, some of us on these blogs predicted that he was just at best an average OF (and that seems overly optimistic now) and that you shouldn’t trade Garza and your starting SS for at best an average player.”
Except you got a starting SS back as well. Plus outfield depth for a minor league pitcher who was actually lost by the Rays in the Rule 5 draft before he had to be offered back.
There is no way ANYONE predicted that Jason Bartlett was going to blow up this year. In all actuality, it’s probably a career year, and he’ll never get close to this again. He’s already slowing down - since returning from the DL, he is hitting .299/.347/.425 compared to .373/.418/.596 before. His OPS+ from the previous 2 seasons were 88 and 82.
And how good is Garza, really? His FIP stands at a 4.28, while he has a K/BB ratio of 2.27. Here are the Twins starters -
Blackburn - 3.97 FIP, 1.86 K/BB
Perkins - 3.96 FIP, 2.25 K/BB
Slowey - 4.22 FIP, 5.00 K/BB
Baker - 4.41 FIP, 3.90 K/BB
Liriano - 4.53 FIP, 2.02 K/BB
The Twins traded from a position of surplus - young starting pitching - to try and upgrade a glaring weakness - young, offensive talent in the outfield. They also traded defense in the form of Bartlett for an upgrade in the bat with Harris. Isn’t that what everyone was screaming for when Smith made the move?
As for Santana and Hunter - sure, it looks bad for the Twins now. But how will it look in 4 years when those two are still making roughly 40 million between the two of them? For example - Dan’s lineup. If the Twins had signed Hunter and Santana, there is NO WAY they can afford Morneau, Sanchez and Nathan.
Bartlett for Harris was at the Rays behest. Undesirable for the Twins AT THE TIME.
As for the Pohlads’ money, I wish they would open the pocketbooks and hurt their profits once or twice a decade for key players. That is how an engaged fanbase is maintained and should have occured with Torii.
“Mauer’s agent called Smith and said they’d like to negotiate during the season. Smith said, “No, we don’t do that.” Sound likely?”
yes see Hunter T. and Santana, Johan
both of their agents were given (crickets) until off-season they left, both players stated they would have signed a multi-year contract for less then what they eventually signed for the previous off-season
I was glad Hunter was not resigned, in hindsight I was probably wrong
Johan got ticked off that Twin’s would not make moves to improve the club and by end of 2007 he would not have resigned with Twin’s for any amount of money
“I like Kirby’s idea of getting Halladay, but how? ”
They can’t. It isn’t even a possibility. Even if they DID have the talent to get a deal done, Halladay would have to agree to a deal to come to Minnesota. Best of luck with that one.
“As for the Pohlads’ money, I wish they would open the pocketbooks and hurt their profits once or twice a decade for key players. That is how an engaged fanbase is maintained and should have occured with Torii.”
It’s also how you get stuck with bad contracts.
Right, Fire. When a player cops an attitude we don’t need him. Players come and go, but we still got a team to run, er, I mean, “discuss”. But I thought Delmon made some plays in the OF the past month that gave me some hope. I still think he will hit.
A usual JC took his hammer and “nailed” it.Baseball is a business.If Nick Punto doesn’t realize that getting Freddie Sanchez is good for the team and it forces the manager to place little Nicky where he belongs,on the bench,then It’s Punto who isn’t being a good teammate.
Justin Morneau has earned the right to say what he said.If someone one the Team can out produce Justin,then you can question his voice in the matter.The ball is in Bill Smith(and the Pohlad’s) court.You’ve got your stadium and three true super stars,it’s time to go for it,or risk losing your stars and your fan base.
both players stated they would have signed a multi-year contract for less then what they eventually signed for the previous off-season
Hunter also said he all he wanted was the security of a 5-year contract, and that he’d LOVE to play at home in Texas.
Or the grass at US Celluar.
Or was it the scoreboard at Kaufmann.
Yeah, sorry, it’s easy to say “I would’ve done X” once you’ve already done Y.
“There is no way ANYONE predicted that Jason Bartlett was going to blow up this year. In all actuality, it’s probably a career year, and he’ll never get close to this again.”
Hey, even if it’s a one-hit wonder, I’d rather have it on my watch than go through a prolonged waiting period with no guarantees with Delmon Young.
The point is to see Santana and Barlett at this All Star game should remind the dreamers that when the Twins make trades, they aren’t just exchanging talent for talent, they are exchanging future payroll amounts.
But also remember this when you see Bartlett playing for the American League–what really matters is defense and in Nick Punto, the Twins have a better answer.
Pete D, a club can certainly get stuck with bad contracts. But you actually have to sign someone before you get stuck with a bad contract. Morneau’s contract may go into the Joe Mays category if he blows out a knee this year or next and is never the same. There is always,always risk. Doesn’t mean you can’t try now and again. That being said, your assessment on trying to get Halladay is spot on.
Good point Jason. Nick’s defense is better and Bartlett’ contract at $1,981,250 frees up some money for other things.
(this ought to be good)
“And how good is Garza, really?”
At the time of the trade Garza had just turned 24 and had five more years under club control. I’m fine that the Twins let him go, but I think the case could be made that if they were going to trade a young starting pitcher and a starting shortstop, who was also under club control, maybe they should have shopped around a little more.
True, Lil Nicky can really pick it. I heard he was soooo good they are considering giving him 2 Gold Gloves this year, one at short and one at second. They can’t decide which he should have, why not both I say!?!
“”"Logan says:
July 14th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
True, Lil Nicky can really pick it. I heard he was soooo good they are considering giving him 2 Gold Gloves this year, one at short and one at second. They can’t decide which he should have, why not both I say!?!”"”
1st nomination for SPOD for today. More to come I am sure, final winner will be determined tonight.
Bartlett is a good, not great, SS whose D has been over-rated. If he keeps hitting like Garciaparra then he is superior to Harris, but otherwise Bartlett v Harris is mostly a wash.
saam, I thought the complaint around here is that Smith shops around too much and never buys? Now the problem is that he bought before shopping around enough?
Bottom line… any deal that looks good a year or two later was a good deal. Any deal that doesn’t look so good at that point was foolish.
I’m as anxious for the FO to do something to improve the team as anyone… I just think it’s inconsistent to claim that they’re both too slow/cautious AND too quick to make a deal.
OB, I disagree that Bartlett/Harris is a wash. But, even if you are right, the fact that Gardy resists playing Harris regularly decreases his value.
But also remember this when you see Bartlett playing for the American League…
Didn’t Bartlett go to the All-Star Game because his manager BROUGHT him to the All-Star game?
I’ll give you Santana, but this whole “Bartlett as Rays MVP” thing that they kicked up down in Tampa is perhaps the most hilarious thing ever.
But, even if you are right, the fact that Gardy resists playing Harris regularly decreases his value.
You mean like how since taking over at SS Harris has only sat twice?
That aversion?
Jason -
I’m interested in which, if any, defensive metrics you feel are accurate? Because Nick Punto has played a better defensive shortstop over his career than Jason Bartlett has, when looking at stats such as UZR/150 and RF/9. Add into that the multi-position eligibility of Punto, I guess I don’t see the problem with the Twins ‘choosing’ Punto over Bartlett.
JimC, I’ve always defended the Garza/Young trade and will continue to do so. My point was more that even if we think Garza and Bartlett wouldn’t help the current team, they still had value in trades.
OB,
Your opinions are well thought out. But I believe you undervalue defense. The old baseball model of “strong up the middle” developed empirically. By that model SS attributes include superior defense as a priority. And superior offense as a luxury.
I think that there are 2 people with great influence on the Twins improvement: The manager and the GM.
I know alot of people don’t like Bill Smith, but he is definitely more active and willing to make risky trade ( unlike Terry Ryan ). Granted, the Delmon Young trade failed, but I hope if another trade like this comes along he won’t hesitate to pull the trigger. The Twins need offense and have quality pitching prospects, that’s why trading Garza for Young was a good trade with a bad result.
Regarding Gardenhire, he reminds me of 2 guys: Dennis Green and Flip Saunders. Both of them were good regular season coaches that took their team to the playoffs almost every year, but then they stunk in the postseason. Gardy has especially very bad track record against the Yanks. This team needs a good postseason coach, and not a good regular season coach.
In summary, I think the Twins need to replace Gardy and keep Bill Smith.
Bartlett’s a bit better at the plate Pete. Now, Punto and Bartlett are ~equal in the field.
Paul, I agree, superior D is definitely a priority at SS (CF too, not so much at 2B). While he used to be, Punto is not in that upper echelon anymore. Neither is Bartlett.
T, Harris has had to earn the starting shortstop job. Had they kept Bartlett the job would have been his to lose. I wasn’t criticizing Gardy, just saying that they didn’t get a ’starting shortstop’ from the Rays.
“And superior offense as a luxury”
maybe true at middle infield
but “poke your eyes out and pour lemon juice on a paper cut” terrible offense is not acceptable as a MLB starter unless you are a starting pitcher in the NL
interesting story on joe and jake mauer in the ny times. kinds serves as an addendum to souhan’s story and includes video of joe dancing ala thriller (just joking on that last part):
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/14/sports/baseball/14mauer.html
So which player has a better chance of winning a world series this year Joe/Justin, Torri or Johan?
Boneyard -
“There is always,always risk. Doesn’t mean you can’t try now and again. ”
Absolutely. And the risk increases as players get older. Or if they are pitchers who have 912 innings on their arms the past 4 years, and whose numbers are starting to decline.
Santana probably wasn’t worth a long term investment. Look at his numbers since leaving the Twins. His WHIP is up and his K/BB is down, even with a move to the National League.
Hunter is having a great year, no one would debate that. But he is getting on base much more than he ever has before, slugging for a higher percentage than he ever has before, and even has a better batting average. Are we to believe that Hunter is still improving at age 33?
I tend to disagree with a lot of posters on this board - I like that the Twins build with an eye on the future. It keeps them competitive now and 3 years down the line. If the players want to complain, fine. But who do the Twins owe more to - the players or the fans?
FIRE,
Superior and terrible have a lotta room between them.
Torii unless the Twins pull off a brilliant trade in which case equal chances to the Twins, IMO.
I wasn’t criticizing Gardy, just saying that they didn’t get a ’starting shortstop’ from the Rays.
Well they thought they were getting a “starting 2B”. But unfortunately it didn’t work out that way. 
As far as Harris having to earn it, he was the starting 2B out of ST…but as time went on (and other things didn’t work) he started getting shifted around.
Harris was kind of in a weird situation. I’m sure he was a “throw-in” for the Rays, since the Twins wanted something back since they were giving up their starting SS.
I know I’d love to have BOTH in my MIF if I were a manager, but I think in the long run if I had to choose it’d be Harris.
But that is not a choice I’d want to have to make.
The Angels can beat the Yankees. Don’t know if that means a World Championship, but at least they beat ‘em!
Pete D, Agree about Santana. I would have been very pleased if they had been able to sign him for four years plus and option (he wouldn’t have gone for that), but I’m not a fan of long-term deals for pitchers.
“Jason -
I’m interested in which, if any, defensive metrics you feel are accurate? Because Nick Punto has played a better defensive shortstop over his career than Jason Bartlett has, when looking at stats such as UZR/150 and RF/9. Add into that the multi-position eligibility of Punto, I guess I don’t see the problem with the Twins ‘choosing’ Punto over Bartlett.”
Allow me to catch my breath and then deliver a very simple-minded response:
I don’t need UZR/150 or RF/9 to tell me that Nick Punto is not qualified to be a starting infielder for the Twins.
But who do the Twins owe more to - the players or the fans?
Interesting question.
It appears that at least some of both groups want the Twins to get off their arses and show some commitment to winning.
You raise a good point of debate Pete: What matters more, long term competitiveness or shooting for a championship? It is hard to do both w/o lots of $$$.
I also agree about Santana; his peripherals are worrisome although he is still spectacular.
OB -
“Bartlett’s a bit better at the plate Pete. Now, Punto and Bartlett are ~equal in the field.”
He wasn’t better at the plate last year.
2008 Bartlett - .286/.329/.361
2008 Punto - .284/.344/.382
Nor was he better in the field.
Fantastic post today, Howard. Great stuff!
OB, a bit better?
Bartlett is a bit better hitting for average, a bit better at hitting for power, he has always k’d less, he is a bit better baserunner and basestealer. He is a bit better than Punto at everything excluding versatility, which overall makes him a considerably better.
Pete, note the keyword “Now”
Has Punto had enough consistant time at any position for his UZR to have much meaning? Obviously he has been well above average in the past, but I’m not sure you can say too much beyond that.
True, Logan, that was an understatement.
I prefer Bartlett to Harris, but I can see others disagreeing.
As for Garza’s numbers since he left, did you factor in that he faced the 2nd most difficult “lineup” of all starting pitchers last year. According to an article on ESPN last year, his opponents’ OPS was the 2nd highest faced of all starting pitchers. If I had to guess, the Twins’ pitchers aren’t facing the Yankees and Red Sox and the Jays in terms of quality or quantity that the Rays’ pitchers are.
But that’s not really the point. The questions are, “are either of those good trades at this point”; “will either be good in the future”; “by the time DY realizes all this potential, will he be arbitration and/or FA elgible, and if he’s good, will they sign him, and if he’s not, why should they”?
I’d say:
no, not even close
not likely, but still possible
yes/not likely
Pete, How about some career numbers?
Wait, never mind.
I’m well aware that this is a minority view:
Jim Pohlad is plenty smart, and he’s surrounded by even smarter people. The Twins have both a financial plan and a field plan that covers the present and the future. They have stated publicly, on more than one occasion, that they plan to commit better than 50% of revenues (averaged out over some time period) to player payroll. Let’s revisit this topic in two years, because I predict no reasonable person will be able to make a valid “cheap” shot. They have been making inroads on repairing and building the player pipeline, and the results are just starting to show. For proof, look closely at the records, team pitching, and team batting statistics for the low minors (on balance). And contrary to what many believe, they aren’t stacking these teams with older players.
Pohlad Companies know how to manage the risks and volatility associated with high-reward enterprises like airlines, beverages, and baseball. You have to take risks when you own these enterprises, but you have to be calculating, right? The players are the risky assets, obviously. The reason I’m optimistic is that the risk/reward dynamics have been becoming more manageable, and the stadium deal iced that cake.
They will not mortgage the future by doing something stupid, like trading four blue chip prospects (think Guerra, Ramos, Bromberg, Hicks) to acquire Halladay. Will they make a trade that gives us reasonable cause for optimism about this season? That will be another litmus test for Smith. I believe he has been given the reigns and can do it if he judges it to be the right decision.
I believe the chances are good that the revenue will allow Mauer and Morneau to stay in place. Let’s hope the boys control their agents and stand by their “more than enough money” admission. Maybe Mauer can give the team a better shot at surrounding him with more talent by settling for pissant chump change of say, $15M per.
Good point about sample size saam. Perhaps it is an anomaly for Punto at SS so far. This half season suggests his range has fallen off a cliff, though.
I sure hope you’re right bop. I do agree that the low minors look promising.
Well said BOP
did someone just drop a sack of praise for Pohlad Corp as a risk taker? and is not a cheap org but invests money back into their MLB product??
I didn’t know we had someone from Pohlad Corp Board of the Directors on these blogs?? they are obviously well paid(OFF)
Since Jim took over, they’ve shed salary. Will they reinvest those savings in future years? Will they be over 50%? So far, it looks like the answer is “no”.
And yes, I get that this is a young team, and so they are “underbudget” right now. IF their young players are any good, the arbitration cycle will force them to raise their salary structure (which hitter, exactly, looks like the next Kubel even, which pitcher looks like, um, hmmm, the next Radke?).
I guess filling in holes with other players didn’t make sense, it made more sense to spend less money. So, they’ve saved lots and lots of money relative to what they were paying 3 years ago - what will they do with that money? Will they sign a FA? Will they trade for a player in his prime earning years? Will they sign some expensive foreign player (btw, all those high priced latin players have pretty much not worked out so far - too raw is what I’ve read)? Will they pocket it? I don’t know what they’ll do, frankly.
Jason -
“I don’t need UZR/150 or RF/9 to tell me that Nick Punto is not qualified to be a starting infielder for the Twins.”
Well Jason, I was really responding to this statement -
“what really matters is defense and in Nick Punto, the Twins have a better answer.”
And, according to their career numbers, the Twins do have a better answer defensively than Jason Bartlett.
No one in their right mind would argue that Nick Punto has outplayed Jason Bartlett this year. But he did last year. And the gap between their performances has not been as pronounced since they both returned from their trips to the DL. While Bartlett is out slugging Punto by a significant margin - .125 since they came back - Punto is getting on base more and appears to be playing better defense. Granted, I’m not exactly sure how to compare SS to 2B in terms of defensive numbers, but Bartlett has a 2.9 UZR/150 and a 4.2 RF/9 at short this year, while Punto has a 13.0 UZR/150 and a 4.8 RF/9 at 2B.
But I’m not really trying to disagree with you on the point of Punto. He’s been bad this year. Terrible even. I wish they had another option. I just don’t think they do. Both Tolbert and Casilla have been worse, posting OPS+ of 37 and 28 respectively.
I would love to see the Twins make a move for a 2B. I hope they are talking to teams about it. However, until they make a move, Nick Punto should be the starting second baseman.
I expect Casilla to have a short leash. Punto, in all likelihood, will end up back at 2B within a month. Making a trade is the only good solution if the Twins want to challenge this year.
Pete, You can’t really compare defense at ss to defense at 2b since ss is a more demanding position. As for their respective UZR, neither player has enough games to draw any conclusions from the stats.
Why does a trade have to be for a guy with only 3 months left on his contract? Why does everyone assume a trade is only for the short term? Sanchez, for example, has 1.5 years left on his deal. Other 2B have time. They could trade for anyone in the majors, why assume that a trade is only for the present?
“They could trade for anyone in the majors, why assume that a trade is only for the present?”
because Pohlad’s won’t let Billy expand the team payroll??
it doesnt help that punto seems to have less brain cells than spikes on his cleats. getting picked off first base, injuring himself 2 years in a row because he cant get it into his head that sliding head first is dangerous whether it be first base or any other. how is that hard not to figure out, maybe he does it because he knows he hampers his team
Aw, c’mon ben. He just thinks he’s Pete Rose. Nothing wrong with that.
all gardy has to do to correct it, is sit him if he does it. then he might try and figure it out, he will have plenty of time while he is sitting on the bench.
I don’t understand why Freddy Sanchez’s expected 8 mil in 2010 has been a problem. If he’s healthy, he’ll likely be worth that money. The Twins cannot argue finances anymore, either, the new stadium revenue will kick in.
“less brain cells than spikes on his cleats.”
Wow!
Yeah, that was cruel, Paul.
“Nicky Hussle”
Joe Mauer’s biggest fans after last night are the Pohlad brothers because if Joe would have some how mysteriously would have won the Derby last night he would have been able to write down 10 years 280 million with a little smiley face with sideburns on it. Then the Twins fans would have been jumping off the Ark when Baby Jesus parted the seas and walked on water over to Boston or New York.
the end of the Joe Mauer story hasn’t been written yet, it still maybe a storybook ending where Joe stays with his home town club and beats those free spending big market giants
agreed OB, how much is punto making over the next two years? 4 mill/yr thats right so a 2nd baseman who is a career .300 hitter with gap power is worth the extra 4 mill. if punto ever starts hitting .300 and amasses 4,000 hits then he can slide head first anytime he wants, until then i will continue to call him a moron
OB -
“Pete, note the keyword “Now””
I understand. And there is definitely something to be said about predicting how players will perform in the future. But before this year, how would you have predicted Jason Bartlett would play? I’m 99% sure that you wouldn’t have said .347/.393/.536 at the All Star break.
Here’s some predictions for Jason Bartlett prior to this season -
ZIPS - .274/.332/.360
CHONE - .272/.336/.366
MARCEL - .277/.337/.369
OLIVER - .277/.333/.374
Now Punto’s projections are lower in each of these systems, but not as low as his numbers are right now. They average roughly a .250/.320/.335 line. I guess my main point is, while it was pretty much predicted that Bartlett would be better than Punto this year at the plate, it certainly wasn’t supposed to be anywhere near as wide of a gap as it is now. So, the question we have from here on out is, will both players play more like their projections or more like their current stats?
Shaun,
Maybe just another shot of the hyperbole I’ve come to know and luv round here.
bop,
No worries about losing those 4 for Halladay…not gonna happen.
The thing that has been mentioned over and over but always sticks in my mind: not mortgaging the future.
I agrees its stupid to not think longterm about the players who will be Twins down the road.
However the Twins always seem a piece or 2 away from being a serious World Series contender in the present. Especially since the Twins aren’t going to have guys like Mauer, Nathan, and Morneau forever. Strike while the iron is hot and you have 3 perenniel All Stars on your team!
Even in 2006 the Twins seemed to be missing something. With a Cy Young winner, MVP, and batting champ, the flameout against Oakland shouldn’t have happened. But the bats went cold and the pitching couldn’t do enough to avoid the sweep against a team which on paper was not as good as the Twins.
The Twins have been successful this decade-7 winning seasons versus 2 losing, with 4 division titles. This is very close to the White Sox-they have 7 winning seasons, 1 .500 season, and 1 losing. They have 3 division titles, but of course have the World Series win.
What’s the difference? Sox have a higher payroll, but they don’t spend like a big market team. I just think they are more aggressive with getting players than the Twins. Kenny Williams is a smart GM and maybe that with his aggressiveness gave them the one thing the Twins are missing this decade…
saam -
I understand that comparing the two is going to be pretty tough. And how many innings is enough to compare using UZR? I really don’t know. But looking at last years numbers -
Bartlett
1097 innings at short - 2.9 UZR/150
Punto
530 innings at short - 17.9 UZR/150
Salient point Pete. I don’t expect Bartlett to continue hitting like he has. Punto probably will hit better too. As you said, though, even if they both come back to earth, Bartlett is still the better hitter. As for Punto’s decline in range, it is not definitive, but his advance in age and recent contract provide further indicators that suggest it is not just noise.
Paul, since you are on this blog i am sure you catch quite a few games. Punto’s defense is not worth 4 million plain and simple and hyperbole or not the guy is not a smart baseball player. he might be a very intelligent person outside of baseball, but not when he straps on his cleats. i guess you can blame that on the manager as much as the player for letting that play continue
Those who say the Twins didn’t negotiate with Hunter during the season …
based on press reports at the time, “Not True.”
Around August 1 (if I recall correctly), it came out that the Twins had, indeed, made an offer to Hunter’s agent.
At which time Hunter, who’d been complaining about “wanting to get a deal done but they won’t talk” immediately changed his tune to “we’re in a pennant race now, it’s not the right time to talk about that.”
IMO:
Hunter had two goals with all the running of the mouth that season: #1, see if he could stampede the Twins into a deal good enough for him to stay; and, #2, ‘make sure’ the Twins, not him, were blamed if(when) he left.
And the reason for goal #2 was because he wasn’t interested in giving the Twins much (if any) of a ‘hometown discount’ on #1.
How do you think it would’ve played out if Hunter had said from the beginning “Look, I’d like to stay, if the money is right”? That would’ve been a perfectly legitimate and reasonable position for him to take - and it would have been 180 degrees opposite the public image Hunter always wanted for himself as a team leader, a great teammate, a fixture in Minnesota, etc.
Anyone recall Hunter’s comments after getting to LA? It’s not about money, I would’ve signed for far less, it’s about winning, they didn’t want to win in Minnesota, blah blah blah.
With Hunter, it was about the money. The Twins had no shot to keep him.
As for Johan …
first, it’s hard to believe all the hullabaloo Hunter created around himself didn’t affect Johan’s attitude.
Second, other than “stick a siphon in the owner’s non-baseball income,” who wants to argue that the Twins revenue stream could support the contract Johan got from the Mets? We’d wind up with Johan pitching every 5 days with 8 position players behind him who aren’t yet arbitration eligible.
And, no, ownership isn’t obliged to stick a siphon in its non-baseball income.
Pete, one of the writers over at fangraphs stated that three seasons of defensive stats is as meaningful as one season of offensive stats.
Punto played roughly 1/3 of a season at short last year, so a pretty small sample size.
“And, no, ownership isn’t obliged to stick a siphon in its non-baseball income.”
Absolutely correct.
But if there has ever been a time to do it since they kind of did it for Kirby oh so many years ago, Joe Mauer is that guy.
That’s interesting Saam. Because it takes a lot more than one season of offense to convice me, as if anybody cared. Which is why I am puzzled when a player makes the All Star for having three good months of baseball.
Shawn
I don’t really care about the ASG, but how do you think they should decide who plays? I’m fine with playing the guys who have had a strong first half, but I’d also be fine if the game were canceled.
That’s good to know saam. In trying to figure out why, I noticed that (for Punto) in a full season at a position he’d see 175-200 balls hit to his zone. Perhaps that is why 3 seasons in the field are roughly equal to one at the plate (assuming 600 PAs).
Hunter was as good as gone at that point. Ryan blew it by not signing him the year before (like waiting to sign Mauer…..).
who ever sells the most baseball cards!
seriously, i don’t know.
Or maybe not. Jeter sees 300-400 balls in his zone per year. That should be representative of the high end per year.
i don’t ever want jeter’s name mentioned on this blog again.
oops, sorry. i over-reacted.
It was obvious the 1987 Twins were serious about winning when they brought in Don Baylor.
In 1991, it was obvious the Twins were planning on winning, because they brought in a stud pitcher by the name of Jack Morris. (Some of you may recall a rather important 10 inning complete game he pitched)
This year, what is the one piece the Twins can bring in at the trade deadline to signal they’re serious about winning?
Personally, I don’t think they really need a bat.
I think they need to bring in a stud starting pitcher.
Which pitcher might be available that would tell fans the Twins are serious about winning?
OB, Has Punto ever played close to a full season at one position?
I think the three-to-one rule may be because there is more noise in defensive stats. (That’s just a wild guess as I am far from an expert.)
Shaun, OB…. who is Jeter?
correct Mike.. that’s what we are talking about Hunter wanted to sign a contract extension the season before, Twin’s picked up his 1 year option and then let him go free, he was mad the option was picked up instead of an extension, and then the next season(2007) it was far too late to get Hunter to reconsider FA especially with Terry Ryan selling instead of buying at the trade deadline
I love reading fans that stick up for the team vs the player when the player leaves the team.
For once and for all, Hunter wanted 15 million a year and he wanted 5 years. The Twins put in a token offer of 15 million a year for 3 years knowing he would decline the offer. I don’t think that was 100% wrong on their part because you don’t want to pay a guy that kind of money at the end of his career. However to think that they didn’t lowball him in years is just wrong. Had they wanted him for 5 years they would have offered him 5 years and 12 million a year, and seen him walk because the money was more important.
I don’t 100% blame the Twins for the Santana situation, but it was just brought up that him seeing how they handled the Hunter situation, how they were handling the Silva situation, and they did trade away Castillo instead of adding players for a run… The Twins did themselves no favor.
Then having their GM walk away and leave that mess for a rookie was unfortunate for the Pohlads. Terry Ryan deserves a lot more blame for this than he has taken.
Bill Smith handled it poorly, but we all screw up in our first year in business, and we will make mistakes as we go along in real life. However, baseball has an emotional component of fandom-ownership that makes the rationale of things a little more of a gray area.
And to say that Bill Smith’s tenure isn’t starting out poorly is about as Rose colored glasses as an outlook could be. It’s a lot like a restaurant. IF you have been there 20 times and the food or service is bad, you will most likely brush it off, and go back, but if it’s your first time, and it’s over priced, under cooked, and the waiter is a jerk… you aren’t coming back, and you are telling everyone that it sucks. Could the place become Oceanaire? Possibly, but pretty damn doubtful. Bill Smith so far has failed, and now even Gardy is slamming management.
Blake
If you mean Halladay, it won’t happen. The Jays have made their price known and the Twins can’t meet it. They want some major league ready talent and the Twins can’t surrender that without opening more holes in their lineup. Halladay likes pitching in Toronto and there is no reason for him to come to MN if he doesn’t think the Twins can win.
I was looking at his 3B years saam. I’ve been doing more research (essentially, just looking at different players who played full years at different positions) on balls in zone.
Position estimates so far:
SS: 300-450
2B: 300-400
CF: 350-400
3B: 200-300
I’m surprised by how many balls go to 2B.
ben,
Your passion is compelling. I’d want you on my team in any fight. I wasn’t, and am not now, trying to insult you. And I agree with you that his D is not worth 4M. But it seems your opinion that he is “not a smart baseball player” is based on him getting picked off a couple times and his sliding into 1B. I’m sure his judgement is he gains a fraction of a step with his sliding antics. This may or may not be true. But I’m sure he knows his body better than you or me. I’ve heard the term “false hustle” round here. I believe there is no false hustle in baseball. (A priest told me when I was a child “If you pretend to be good enough, you can even fool God.) Also guys get picked off for lots of reasons that have nothing to do with “smarts”.
IMHO, the fact that Punto has become a millionaire playing baseball indicates to me that he IS smart “when he straps on his cleats”.
Bill Smith doesn’t care what I or anyone else really thinks, but here’s an idea that is way out of the Twins stratosphere, but I think one that could work.
Baker, Swarzack, Morales, and Manship to the Padres for Peavy (provided he would accept that trade after turning down the White Sox).
Or drop one of the top 3 out of that, and maybe add another young prospect in for Roy Halladay as he is going to be a free agent sooner.
This team needs an ace that can help the rotation and the bullpen.
Expression: I doubt Peavy would okay the Twins if he rejected the Sox.
Maybe we should get em both. Make each pitch every other day. If Walter Johnson could do it, maybe they could too.
1B: 100-200
LF: 200-350, more outliers
RF: 200-350, more outliers
And about noise: it is more likely in small sample sizes. So yeah, there would be more noise in defensive stats as there are fewer defensive events (I’ve been using balls in zone or BIZ) than PAs. Hence, the 3-1 rule.
I’m surprised by how many balls go to 2B.
Could it be related to the righty/lefty thing?
For once and for all, Hunter wanted 15 million a year and he wanted 5 years.
And four teams he said he’d love to play for all offered that (Texas, KC, White Sox…and I think Houston).
Then he ended up taking the 6 year offer that even he admits came from a team he even admits he hadn’t thought about until they threw the money at his feet.
This year, what is the one piece the Twins can bring in at the trade deadline to signal they’re serious about winning?
It’ll changed based on who you talk to. There’s no one agreed piece that they could bring in.
They could get Sanchez, but some would argue they still need bullpen help.
You could get Grabow (just throwing a name out) and people would say the lineup still needs fixing.
You could try and fix both, but then there’s still questions about the young rotation.
So yes, the Twins need to try and come up with something. But regardless of what they bring in there will be at least one group that thinks something better would’ve worked.
And considering buyers at the deadline usually doing get off cheap, I’m also hoping people who want that move are willing to accept what it may cost to get the player here.
T:
I was surprised that 2Bs saw roughly as many balls as SSs when I always hear that SS is so much more important defensively than 2B. Perhaps something to do with the throw to 1st?
BD57, unfortunately, there are many who believe ownership is obligated to stick a siphon in its non-baseball revenue. Just ask our senseless friend FIRE! about that. But here’s something for those with some sense to ponder: the team has increased its investment in player development quite substantially. It’s clearly starting to pay off. While player payroll has declined slightly in the short term, the team isn’t “shedding payroll” like mww is determined to believe. This decline is attributable to a few contracts. Payroll will increase again rather significantly as core players commit to new deals, a process underway: Baker, Kubel, and Morneau. One can rationally argue, like Chief and JC do, that the Twins need to step up now and improve the team for the pennant run. Those of you who incessantly call for them to “add payroll” will get your wish, but perhaps not on your timetable. Still, it will be soon enough that some of you should begin thinking of some other things to whine about. I have faith in you.
mww, you asked who the next Kubel and Radke are. Tosoni, for example, was just described as having a Kubelesque left-handed swing, but if he fails, someone else will emerge from among Hicks, Revere, Morales, Benson, Parmelee, Bigley, Herrman, Lei, Martin, Winfree…you get the drift. Slowey, Blackburn, and Swarzak are good examples of the next Radke, although they seem more attracted to winning records than Radke. Any one of those guys could win 150 games in their career, but if they fail, maybe the next Radke is Gibson, Gutierrez, Bromberg, Robertson, Manship, Mulvey, Salcedo, Hermsen, Sanchez, Hunt…you get the drift.
I know this sounds like Pollyanna, but, I really think this team is entering its next golden age.
And no, FIRE!, I don’t work for the Pohlad Companies. I just have an appreciation for the talented people who work there. And I don’t have a cob up my keester about someone else’s wealth. Need a pliers?
OB, Yes it is the throw to first. The shortstop has less time to set up the throw.
And the fact that a 2B can play deeper means reaction time is just a little less impotant. That’s why the Twins planned on Harris at 2B.
Right handed hitters will hit the ball harder to the SS than 2b, just as a general rule of thumb, but obviously will hit some balls to 2b too. Exact opposite for a LH batter. Since there are more R batters than L batters, over the course of the season, the SS will see more hard hit balls than a 2B, but will generally see about the same amount of balls hit to each position.
Of course, the other huge difference is the footwork required at 2B to turn a double play. Now that is comparing apples to oranges for the two positions!
You know who turns a slick DP. Freddy Sanchez.
Right Paul. That settles it. Get Peavey AND Halladay.
Smart. Very Smart.
T, I agree with you that it is doubtful, but unless we ask, and try we will never know.
Maybe they did ask and were turned down. Maybe they know they don’t have what it takes to get Halladay. As for Peavy, do you know the terms of his contract?
bop, I appreciate your optimism. I don’t share it about the minors right now, but I appreciate that it exists. I just don’t see stars down there right now (hitting wise, there are a few pitchers that intrigue me though).
I did acknowledge in my tirade that they have lots of young players, and that they will naturally increase their payroll. I will say, it would have been nice to add one more median priced veteran hitter to this roster over the last two years, though. They had the money for that, and chose not to spend it. That’s certainly their right, but I think it is my right (as a fan and taxpayer) to wonder why they are dropping payroll, when we just guaranteed them significantly more revenue starting next year.
Frankly, the fact I was hoping for the next Radke made me nervous. He was a very good pitcher, but he was no viola or santana (and I don’t see those types anywhere in this system right now).
Revere will not be the next Kubel. You have more XB power than Revere has. He may be the next OBP/Base stealer type, but he won’t be the next Kubel by any means.
My issue with the team stems from earlier this decade, when they had great players, and no 3B or DH, and they couldn’t go get a DH. I see the same thing now, wtih M&M&N and some good players, and still fielding what they do at 2B and one OF spot (and I’m not overly thrilled with SS or 3B - 3B is great on D though, as is occassionally CF).
Gleeman showed quite well how if you utterly stink at two positions, you can cancel out greatness at two positions. They don’t have the starting pitching to overcome what they’ve received from 2B and the primary LFer so far this year.
Only one can imagine how GREAT the Twins would be with Hunter and Santana part of their current team. Damm.
mww,
Again, they are not “dropping payroll.” If Smith wants to add payroll, he can.
I understand the angst about doing something now to fix the holes. I also understand the tendancy to compare the current situation to “the last decade” but I think that’s faulty. Since then, we’ve added revenue-sharing, coupled with the NYY excess payroll tax, plus increased revenues from licensing, etc., and now a new stadium. There are fewer holes to fill. Last year, there were a dozen or so question marks entering the season, and roughly four problems to fix at the break in order to compete in postseason play. At the break this year, the consensus is that we have two holes at least: 2B/2hole, and 8th inning RP. Caveat: a GM can’t fix individual inexperience and underperformance issues. Ownership is not holding Smith back. It’s all on Smith. He can deal if he wants to.
On the minors: I’ve followed it for years. The system has higher numbers of high-ceiling prospects now, and it is a numbers game. It’s a very competitive pipeline and it’s getting stronger. Examples: the DSL team ERA is the lowest of the 33 DSL teams; Elizabethton is 16-3; Fort Myers won the first-half pennant (again); New Britain sent five players to the Eastern League All Star game, and our two best prospects on the team, Ramos and Gutierrez, weren’t invited.
So, I understand complaints based on Smith making feeble attempts to deal. I will push back at global arguments that the Twins are apathetic, witless, cheap, happy with mediocrity, and other such generalizations. The future looks rosy, and the organization, from top to bottom, is pretty well run. Smith may prove to be an exception, we’ll see.
If Smith wants to add payroll, he can.
Then the question becomes, why wouldn’t he? I mean, nobody can logically argue the Twins don’t have holes that could/should be addressed, right?
It’s pretty clear the Twins have payroll space. I’m just not sure they have any real desire to use it.
They certainly don’t give any such indication.
Along the lines of Morneau making interesting comments about Mauer’s future, is it just me or does it seem like in some of the Strib’s recent articles that Gardy has walked closer and closer to the line of straight calling out his front office? Some of his quotes read like “they’ve got to get someone” “I don’t have anyone else to play” and on and on. He also had some that sure seemed like he was saying the he does not agree with his bosses on an issue or two.
Forget the players/contract rift, it looks like Gardy could be about ready to “battle his tail off” with Billy.
Hmmm, isn’t Gardy the one who wanted Punto?
Saam, I don’t mean Halladay, I just don’t think that’s an option.
I don’t know who’s out there that might fit the bill.
Were Seattle falling rapidly, I’d suggest Felix Hernandez. He’s eligible for arbitration next year, if the information I found is correct.
Unfortunately, Seattle is still in the hunt.
T, I think the Twins need a pitcher, a Jack Morris bulldog type. If they can find a 1 year rent a pitcher that fills the bill, I think it puts the Twins over the top.
fcmlefty,
“Of course, the other huge difference is the footwork required at 2B to turn a double play. Now that is comparing apples to oranges for the two positions!”
Not necessarily. Their objectives are the same. Relay the ball to 1B as quickly as possible, and not get injured doing it. The rules of thumb are: SS-find the bag with right foot. 2B-find the bag with left foot. These rules generally allow the fielder to best adjust to the ball and avoid the baserunner.
Why Harris couldn’t master this is beyond me. The only thing I can think of is the SS has to rotate his upper body clockwise prior to releasing the ball. Allowing a fraction of a second to properly grip the ball. This may have allowed Harris to “hide” a slower release.
Paul
“the SS has to rotate his upper body clockwise prior to releasing the ball.”
Top view or bottom view?
I am asking to understand whether you are speaking of:
1) the act of coiling prior to throwing;
or
2) the actual act of throwing.
The SS is facing 1B the whole time he is making his play. The 2B has his back turned to 1B or at the very best, still has 90 degrees to turn, and hasn’t looked at first at all until he’s received the ball from SS/3B to complete the double play. Big, big difference between the two
Blake
My bad. I thought your first post was hinting that you had someone in mind.
I don’t believe there are any top-quality arms that are a good fit for the Twins. Hernandez wouldn’t be on the table even if the M’s begin to stumble. Plus he’d cost about as much as Halladay.
I’m not convinced the Twins need starting pitching anyway. Baker has been inconsistent and Liriano is a shadow of his old self, but it is reasonable to think (hope) that one or both of them will turn it around and perform well in the second half.
The middle infield, on the other hand, is a problem that isn’t likely to improve barring the reappearance of Casilla-2008. I’m fine with giving Casilla a chance, but if he falters (again) they would be best served to try to upgrade at 2b. That would also be cheaper than trying to upgrade the rotation.
some things to chew on:
Mauer has 3 HRs in his last 35 games.
Response to Twins fan in Texas:
You wrote: “Twins fans have awarded this organization with great attendances this season…”.
This isn’t true, when compared to the attendance of the teams against whom the Twins bid for the talent of others. It’s true only compared to the same number of games from the last two seasons.
To lock in long term, high salary contracts, the Twins need to know that the attendance at The Target will be at or above 35K for many, many years, as in the number of years of such long term contracts. So, it’s time for the Twins fans to put up (pay to go to the games and watch/listen to the games on TV/radio to increase the ratings) or shut up.
If so much is paid to a few superstars, then what can the Twins afford for a supporting cast?
No matter how you slice it of dice it, the Twins are a small market team and will never be able to match the revenues of the NY teams, LA teams, Boston, St. Louis (St. Louis is a small market team, but its attendance over its history is one of the best in the MLB).
Over the past four years (2006-2009) the Twins have averaged 28,000 or so fans per game each year. My guess as to why their MLB rank has jumped a few spots (low 20s to 15 this year) is due to attendance loss from other teams. Maybe 35K could be averaged for the first year at Target Field but I doubt that will last. 30K is perhaps more likely (hopeful?). And, yeah, St. Louis is a perfect model of where the Twins would like to be attendance-wise.
I like to think Mauer understands that competing successfully means bringing a championship to you, not going to where you think a championship is already headed.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=4317512
Jayson Stark from ESPN picked a Twin as the first half MVP… and it wasn’t Joe Mauer! Morneau is turning in another amazing season and it’s about time he gets recognition.
2009: $ 65,299,266
2008: $ 56,932,766
2007: $ 71,439,500
Including pro-rated siging bonuses, meaning 2008 is under reported for cash outflow, and 2009 is over reported for cash outflow. Both numbers are well under 2007, when they had high priced talent. They have not replaced that talent (either talent wise, or salary wise).
I’m not sure how anyone can argue that they are under their 50% goal the last two years. I’m not sure how anyone can look at this roster, and see superstars (other than Mauer and maybe Nathan) that NEED to be re-signed right now. They failed to fill 3B or DH the whole part of the first part of this decade, not filling DH was just plain cheapness - you can’t convince me that Terry Ryan thought Tyner was a real DH. I see no evidence so far that this philosophy has changed. I hope it has, but I see no evidence it has. They went cheap in the bullpen, they went cheap last year in “fixing” the bullpen. For 3B, they held up on signing one until Crede had NO alternative (passing on more expensive players). That may have been the right decision, or may not, but it certainly was not the most expensive decision.
As for the minors, the TWins themselves stated in 2008 that they had few, if any, impact players in the minors. Did the system get fixed in 14 months?
I find it hard to believe that the price for Sanchez is all that extreme. The Pirates are very anxious to get rid of his contract. However, the Pirates may still be asking too much at this time. Maybe the Twins are just waiting until closer to the deadline, when the price will come down… Ok, so my head is in the clouds. The reality is the Twins will do nothing, just like every other year. It doesn’t hurt to dream though.
“That may have been the right decision, or may not, but it certainly was not the most expensive decision.”
What are you saying? That the Twins owe it to the players or fans to sign the most expensive player just because they have some extra cash?
I’d rather have my team make smart decisions than spend money just because they can. Irregardless of how much room under their self-imposed cap they had, I would rather have Joe Crede on a 1 year deal than Casey Blake for 3. Signing players older than 30 to long term deals is usually a mistake. Lock up your younger players, and fill in around them. I have no problem with that at all.
sane and fcmlefty,
“Top view or bottom view?
I am asking to understand whether you are speaking of:
1) the act of coiling prior to throwing;
or
2) the actual act of throwing.”
Good question. Sorry for the vagueness.
Top view. 1) the act of coiling prior to throwing.
What I meant to express was perhaps Harris has a slower than avg tranfer from glove to throwing readiness that may be exposed as a 2B. Due to the fact that the 2B is aready coiled and just has to start the throwing motion. This may appear to an observer as bad footwork as the fluidity of the total motion would be interrupted until he was happy with his grip. As opposed to the SS who has to cock before throwing giving an extra instant to “hide” this.
Just an idea. A theory.
“Morneau is turning in another amazing season and it’s about time he gets recognition.”
Huh? He played in the ASG. Not sure how much more recognition you can expect for a first half performance, since there are no official first half awards.
No, I’m suggesting that it was not an example of upping the payroll in the long run. I was not saying they should sign the most expensive option, no where did I say that. I said it was not the most expensive option, nothing more, nothing less.
As for locking up young players, which ones would that be?
MAUER for sure
Young, Casilla, Gomez, Span? 1 of those four at this point makes sense.
Slowey, Liriano, Blackburn, Perkins? 1, maybe 2 of those make sense.
Other than that, they have no other young players to lock up. Harris isn’t young, Crede isn’t young, Cuddy, Morneau, Nathan are locked up (and Punto is signed for another year). It doesn’t make sense to lock up relievers (or pay them big money) in general.
Some of those guys will get raises next year no matter what, whether they lock them up or not.
But, so far, I see no indication that their philosophy (which has won 1 playoff series since 1991, I believe) is changing.
mww:
1. The salary numbers support my assertion. The lower number in 2009 vs. 2007 exists because so many players are ineligible for arbitration. Nothing more.
2. They have replaced talent. The players are young and not yet producing at their peak. This should be easy to grasp. Now, you can argue that they don’t know talent when they see it, but to argue that they have jettisoned talent and failed to replace it is silly. And to insinuate that they are doing so because they’re cheap? Not reasonable.
3. Let’s not go back into ancient history to a time period when the team was revenue-starved. In the recent past, the team has paid up for its home-grown talent unless it represented a stupid move (in their view, not ours.) Silva, Hunter, and Santana are examples. They continue to try to avoid overpaying players, giving long-term, risky contracts, and giving up too much in trades (Smith is trying to screw this up). They have blemishes, no doubt. The biggest issue? Smith still thinks he has to shop the bargain rack: Ayala. I’m absolutely convinced that Smith has the go-ahead to exhaust the current salary room. Why hasn’t he? Good question. Maybe he’ll surprise us by the deadline.
3. The Twins never said they have few “impact” players in the minors. That’s your misinterpretation. What they have said, usually in response to the question about who is ready to help, is that there aren’t a lot of players ready to step up and improve the ballclub immediately.
4. Why wouldn’t it be reasonable for even talented players to struggle when they first make the jump to the bigs? I’m often amused by those who think a player like Tolleson will arrive at the Metrodome and contribute immediately. These same people trashed Blackburn and Perkins when they struggled last year, and were ready to offer them as throw-ins for players like Atkins and Hardy.
1. So, they did not replace MLB players that left with players in their prime earning years, but decided to go with youth. That is either because they believe in that youth, or they are saving money. I think it is a combo platter.
2. See above, I don’t think they have replaced talent effectifly.
3. Earlier this decade, of which Smith was a part, is ancient history? They had no DH or 3B from the time Koskie left until last year or so. Until we see evidence that the philosphy has changed, why should we think it has. They do not add players either already earning prime money, or about to earn prime money. There is no evidence that has changed. It isn’t just about keeping the talent you have, but also replacing it when it leaves.
3. They did, but the STrib won’t let you search back that far for free and I’m not going to use google for the next hour to find it. The Twins said it in this paper before the 2008 draft.
4. I think it is reasonable for young players to struggle, did I say it wasn’t? All I said was I wouldn’t lock up the struggling ones.
Hardy? Did I hear Hardy? Did someone say Hardy?
Yea, he’d fit. Good idea.
I think it is funny I repeated 3 twice. btw, I really don’t want to get in a @%@#$% match about this, we just disagree, that’s cool by me. I probably won’t do point by point responses, as the rest of the board is probably already bored with our discussion….
Just one last point about the talent pipeline: I’m not interested in what anyone has said, only in the reality related to the talent pipeline. Let’s define “impact” players simply as future MLB players. Any other definition forces the discussion to fruitless debate about whether Revere will be any good once he’s here. All I’ve been saying is that the numbers of “impact” players is at a high level, and it’s trending upward. This is supported by lots of evidence.
This is important in refuting assertions that the Twins don’t have a strategy for really competing on a sustained basis as soon as they can get there. They have a different strategy than you do, mww. I accept your belief that it would be nice to see them pay for high-priced talent at the peak of their careers. They think the economics, and the odds of acheiving the intended results, are poor. They are building the pipeline instead. Until the pipeline delivers impressive results, starting as early as next year, they are still attempting to make temporary fixes, like Crede and Ayala, with decidedly mixed results. I’m with Paul, among others, who would like to see a Hardy-type transaction now. In summary, we can disagree with the strategy, we can plead for a watershed moment on the trade market at the deadline, we can criticise their execution, but this nonsense about the them being happy to be mediocre because they’re cheap just doesn’t have legs.
Aw, then we were defining impact differently. The Twins said impact meaning great, future all star types, if I remember the comments correctly.
Impact meaning future MLB regulars that are average or better, I think they have some of those.
I don’t think they want to be mediocre, but I don’t think they have been willing, in the past, to fill holes with more proven players, and so have settled for medicority. I can think of no other explanation for not getting a DH and letting Tyner have that job. I just can’t buy that they really thought he was a DH, and the only other explanation I can think of is that they were too cheap (either in wanting to preserve existing minor league assets, or in being unwilling to sign a FA). I just can’t buy that Ryan and others really thought they had a legit DH from 2004-2007. I just can’t.
As a response, I find it funny that fans who have no problem with players playing hardball in negotiations criticize the team whenever it does the same thing.
Yes, Hunter was offered 3 years - and $45 million - when he wanted 5. How dare the Twins offer Hunter a mere $45m!!!!! WHAT an INSULT!!
Hunter could made a counter-offer (didn’t have to, was within his rights not to, but he could have). Seems there was an obvious middle ground … 4 years @ $15m per year for $60m. Also seems Hunter decided he wasn’t interested in searching for ‘middle ground’ at that time.
IMO, he got ticked because the Twins called the bluff on his “I want to get a deal here, but they won’t talk!!!” song & dance, which gave him two choices: negotiate (in which case fans would find out it was all about the money) or find some excuse not to negotiate (and have fans ask “Hey, what happened to ‘I want to get a deal done but they won’t talk’?).
Either way, some portion of Hunter’s song & dance was going to take a hit.
IMO, he chose the latter (no negotiations now) because he’d already made up his mind he was going for the bucks, which meant he wouldn’t be staying in Minnesota, which would become apparent to people at some point during the season if he negotiated immediately, which would likely result in him being called out (to some extent) by fans & in the media. IMO, Hunter simply didn’t want to deal with it during the season - it would be a whole lot easier to leave if he wasn’t playing games at the time it became apparent that that was his intention.
Hunter had EVERY RIGHT to go for the paycheck. What I don’t appreciate is the inherent dishonesty in his approach.
on a year for four years - .
