As Gardy and the others said…
Posted on July 23rd, 2009 – 9:19 AMBy Howard
Went into a meeting yesterday and the score was 1-0. Came out and it was 12-1.
Got into the xB for the drive home right after the game ended. Heard that in both of Glen Perkin’s one-inning knockouts this year, the temperature was in the 50s. No wonder some people complain about the overuse of statistics.
Flipped on the kitchen radio in time to hear Gardy say, “We got our a$$e$ kicked.” As Beavis would say if he’d been sitting on the sofa, “Heh, heh. Gardy said a$$ on the radio.”
That pretty much tells you everything you need to know, except for what other people are saying:
LaVelle wrote this after the game: “The middle infield needs to be addressed. I heard that Oakland’s Orlando Cabrera can be had. What about Cristian Guzman? And while some might think that $9 million is too much to pay Freddy Sanchez in 2010, it’s for one year. Thanks to Target Field, you’re about to get PED injections — Payroll Enhancing Dividends. The Twins can handle the salary. And late-inning relief hasn’t been addressed since May of last year. Trades aren’t easy, but this team needs a jolt.”
From Nick’s Twins Blog: “Fresh off an absolutely embarrassing series in Oakland, the Twins could find themselves in a very precarious position if Crede’s (shoulder) injury turns out to be serious. This team already has enough gaping holes, and adding one more could very well end their chances of contending in this division. The pressure is mounting on the general manager and the front office to right the ship and keep this team from unraveling completely. Let’s hope they’re up to the challenge.”
At the blog 162 Reasons, Alex writes about the ninth inning, which probably makes her the only one who stuck around for it: “In the ninth, manager Bob Geren wants to try out rookie reliever Edgar Gonzalez. It’s very hard for a game like this to have an interesting ninth inning. In fact, one has to assume that players and staff are restless to get on with their getaway. But Gonzalez wants to keep us engaged. He gets Michael Cuddyer out leading off, then walks Brendan Harris. Then he walks Brian Buscher. And then, just because there are three bases, he walks Nick Punto. This is not the time to be experimenting with pitches. The tried and true strike is all you need to throw with a 15-run lead. Yet somehow Gonzalez is losing the knack for it. Now, if this were the fourth inning we’d have time for the comeback that comes back from Monday’s blown lead. But it’s the ninth, with one out. Alexi Casilla has a chance to get an RBI or two, but not much chance to launch us off on a brand new winning streak. The game ends in a swift double play.
Babes Love Baseball pointed out that some things are worse than getting beat 16-1. In this case, it’s life with the Matinglys: “The son of former New York Yankees great Don Mattingly has been arrested on charges of shoving his mother, Kim Mattingly. No, wait. It gets better: he also spit in her face. Taylor Mattingly, 24, is now facing charges consisting of battery, battery by bodily waste (ew) and criminal mischief. He was let out of the slammer late Tuesday on $250 bond, which is not nearly enough money, in my opinion.”
Aaron Gleeman offers this: “Not that anyone with the Twins would care given that they haven’t even bothered to promote him to Triple-A at the age of 25, but Anthony Slama has a 2.98 ERA, 20 saves, and 77 strikeouts in 54 innings at Double-A. His control isn’t great, but opponents are hitting .218 against Slama while striking out 35 percent of the time, and he now has a 1.83 ERA with 236 strikeouts compared to just 102 hits allowed in 157 career innings. What possible reason could there be not to at least promote him to Rochester?” (I would include the link, but his post also has video of Ron Coomer getting a massage during last weekend’s Wisconsin Dells infomercial … and I’m not going there.)
Dan Wade writes at Bleacher Report: “Rehashing the ins-and-outs of an obliteration like the one on Wednesday isn’t useful. The pitching was an abomination, the bats went silent, and the Twins head to Anaheim with their tails firmly between their legs. To call this series frustrating would be an understatement. Losing is always unpleasant, blowing big leads is even more so, and getting blown out is worse than the others combined.”
119 Responses to "As Gardy and the others said…"
Enough said.
I’m heading to Anaheim on Saturday to see the Twins.
I’ve been looking forward to seeing the game until yesterday.
This team needed a jolt in the offseason when guys like Orlando Hudson and Orlando Cabrera were sitting there waiting to be signed. But, alas, nothing, except of course that ridiculous contract for Nick Punto. Now, I read that the Twins are interested in trading for Cabrera after the debacle this week.
I sure hope they get a guy like Cabrera who seems to have a little swagger and seems to be a bit fiesty, because that’s exactly what this team needs right now.
Having Oakland score 16 and 14 runs against our pitching staff is really embarassing to say the least. We almost swept Texas a much better offensive team then Oakland and had a chance to build up some momentum before facing Anaheim. Now we go into Anaheim looking totally dazed and confused and that team is far superior to that of Oakland or Texas.. This team needs some sort of a shakeup to say the least..
Oh, and don’t sleep on the fact that Bill Smith has had 2 years to address a clearly weakened bullpen, particularly when Neshek went down.
All he has to show for it up til this point is pretty much Eddie Guardado, Luis Ayala (both are now gone of course, and thank god) and a bunch of AAA calibur guys who are starters, not relievers. I find that unacceptable.
The Orioles can find a way to trade for a guy like Meredith, for pretty much nothing, but Bill Smith sits on his hands while Gardenhire struggles with an 11-man staff. 5 of which really don’t have any business being in the bigs right now.
Howard, I highly recommend Bill James’ new article on steroids and the Hall. It’s a great read (as you expect).
http://www.actapublications.com/images/small/PressReleases/Cooperstownandthe%27Roids_F2.pdf
I’m not sure if you can disagree with any of his conclusions, frankly.
As for this last series, ugh. That was ugly, really ugly. A good team might lose one of those games, but not two. While I’ll continue to say this mess is mostly Ryan’s doing, Smith has not exactly done a good job of cleaning it up (as a matter of fact, I’d say he’s made it worse so far). I was surprised Morneau signed an extension, given this team’s refusal to play for the present. I’m not sure what Mauer will decide, but I don’t think either decision will surprise me at this point.
Why isn’t much being made of how terrible Perkins has been since his first three starts of the season? He has been horrendous, doesn’t appear to be a team player at all, and worst of all, complains about pain only after getting schellacked twice. Twins should have traded him when they had the chance. Now, nobody is going to want him.
Howard, I hope you’re not suggesting that weather was a factor in his one-inning outings. He’s from Stillwater, and played college at Minnesota. He should be able to handle it.
As for the bullpen, the vast majority of good bullpen pitchers were starters in the minors, and became bullpen pitchers because they weren’t quite good enough to be starters. I have no issue with trying starters are relievers, but I’m with Gleeman on how they’ve handled Delaney and Slama.
I’ll disagree with Dan Wade on one thing, Monday’s loss was more disappointing than yesterday’s.
Teams get blown out all the time, particularly on getaway day. Sometimes one of the teams just doesn’t come to play. Blowing a 10-run lead is a whole other matter. That’s not supposed to happen (It hasn’t happened to the Twins since 1984).
But who cares which loss was more disappointing…we lost two of three to the hapless Oakland A’s. Not good.
Then we find out our bandaid is coming in the form of Jesse Crain. Can I just say for the thousandth time that I refuse to get excited about any bullpen adjustments to our roster (and it seems like there’s been one per week lately) until we fix our real holes: middle infield and pinch hitter. The Twins are as random with their bullpen strategy as ESPN is with its reporting policy.
When I heard about the Grudsie deal, I was encouraged. Can we get him on the Jesse Crain fast track to the majors? And while we’re at it, would the Twins scouting staff please do a coast-to-coast search for a reliable veteran bat that still has some pop left from the right side so we don’t have to rely on Brian Buscher to be our big bopper off the bench?
The Twins went with a lineup yesterday that featured three Mendoza-liners hitting 7 though 9. Those boys didn’t even get through their first plate appearances before we were down 12-1. In other words, that game was over in like 10 minutes.
Still, we are 1.5 games closer to first now than we were at the All Star break. Kind of amazing, huh? Don’t expect that to continue if we don’t fix these gaping holes.
Time for the media to stop looking the other way on the topic of Nick Punto, too. La Velle had that blog note Howard mentioned about the need for middle infield help…that’s Step One. Step two is calling a spade a spade and sitting Punto and Casilla once and for all. Punto had his magical day on Sunday, but was O-for-Oakland, dropping his average to a cozy .203. Enough’s enough.
Grudsie…Valencia…Howard went with
Every (Game) is a Winding Road yesterday, I’m going with A Change Will Do You Good today.
Shoot. If only we had Juan Cruz or Orlando Hudson, we wouldn’t have lost 16-1 yesterday! Nuts!
I have to believe that Pittsburgh’s price will have to come down on Sanchez. Especially after seeing what the Brewers gave up for Lopez. Heck the Pirates want more for Sanchez from us then what they got for Nate McClouth. With Sanchez making all that money I still gotta believe they will get real and off him soon.
Good one Pete D. But if we had Hudson’s production at 2nd and in the 2-hole, this team would have a few more wins under it’s belt, and in this division that means a lot.
Bill Smith makes working out a deal, even for the likes of a Meredith, like it is the most difficult thing in the world. The Orioles didn’t seem to find it so hard. We’re not talking about trading for guys like Halladay here. We’re talking about making some moves to address clear glaring weaknesses if this team has any interest in winning this year and next.
Plus, that clubhouse needs a sign that there is an interest in winning now.
Sanchez is a better player than McLouth. It remains a mystery to stats’ heads like me* why anyone thinks McLouth is a good player.
*I’m not really a stats’ head, but compard to Dayton Moore I’m a stats’ savant
With Slowey’s status in doubt and Perkins’s (feelings) hurt, I think the biggest problem is the rotation.
Why is it that the Twins never know about possible injuries until after the pitchers get raked?
Okay, who do the Twins bet the farm on?
Freddie Sanchez or Roy Halliday?
As of right now, does anyone blame Joe Mauer if he decides to move on? He’s an All Star catcher on a mediocre team.
From what I see at this point, if the Twins don’t recognize that it’s going to take more than a paycheck to keep Joe Mauer, they’re dreaming.
these are the days when a beavis and butthead analogy is brilliant for gardy and bill smith.
the problem with any trade for an infielder is that harris will be the one on the bench and punto will keep playing. so the net gain may be very little.
FirePerkins, I’m totally NOT saying that. I’m saying that it’s laughable that someone would take the time to make that connection.
BC, When I first read your comment, I read “raked” as “naked.” That’s a pretty good sign of how bad things are 
LOL maybe they need to be stripped first Howard.
Howard,
it’s the back up catcher who gets naked literally. The pitchers just do it figuratively.
Jason -
“Time for the media to stop looking the other way on the topic of Nick Punto, too. La Velle had that blog note Howard mentioned about the need for middle infield help…that’s Step One. Step two is calling a spade a spade and sitting Punto and Casilla once and for all. Punto had his magical day on Sunday, but was O-for-Oakland, dropping his average to a cozy .203. Enough’s enough. ”
Perhaps it’s time for you to stop looking the other way on the topic of Brendan Harris?
Harris and Punto each have 4 hits on this road trip. Why aren’t you constantly calling for Brendan Harris to be benched?
@Blake, my sources tell me Sanchez will be a Giant within the next two weeks, and the Twins can’t pay for Halliday in terms of prospects, so I’d say its time to find new targets to be the farm on.
Howard-
You need to start being more factual on here. Call it like it is…. Punto and Casilla suck!
What’s sad is that at beginning of year it was only bullpen needing to be adressed. Now its:
-bullpen
-2B
-SS (well Harris is ok, prolly around average for the league in Def. and hitting)
-3B
-at least 1 starting pitcher
just don’t think they can cut it with buscher, harris, punto/casilla starting, guerrier as your set up, and dickey mijiris duensing and whoever in middle relief
Adam S I believe there were more then a few of us who had concerns about the young rotation. I think they’ve pitched as well if not better then i expected.
I was at the A’s game yesterday, and it looked like batting practice - scorching line drives from every A’s player. But it could be worse - out here, A’s fans are totally discouraged by their team’s willingness to trade everyone, all the time, with no prospects of a nice new stadium, and by the way, the team is way under .500. We Twins fans have it pretty good compared to some teams, so try for perspective. And try to get some new middle infielders….
Because Harris is hitting 60-70 pts hire then Punto..
Harris has had way more clutch hits then Punto.. LNP role is as the utility MIF and he is pretty good at that I will give him that much…
“Perhaps it’s time for you to stop looking the other way on the topic of Brendan Harris?
Harris and Punto each have 4 hits on this road trip. Why aren’t you constantly calling for Brendan Harris to be benched?”
Really, Pete? Here I was under the assumption the only one delusional enough to think Punto is a better player than Harris was Gardy. It’s no contest, Pete. 70 points difference in average cannot be overlooked, among a myraid of other things.
I can maybe offer a little perspective on Joe Crede’s A/C joint troubles. I read they are going to try cortisone to help with the inflamation. I have arthritis in that joint, and have had cortisone shots to address that. This is my one chance to be like Joe Crede!
This has a high probability of success, but may be temporary. Mine was 99% good for about a month, and then came back. The cortisone could be repeated. If my experience is applicable, Crede will get near instant relief for at least a while.
“Really, Pete? Here I was under the assumption the only one delusional enough to think Punto is a better player than Harris was Gardy. It’s no contest, Pete. 70 points difference in average cannot be overlooked, among a myraid of other things.”
It’s absolutely a contest. You cannot look at 1/2 of a season of stats and conclude that one player is better than another. I’ve shown you multiple times that Nick Punto has been better than Brendan Harris since he came back from the DL in June. Punto hit better than Harris last year. Punto plays better defense than Harris.
The first 90+ games are done. We need to figure out who is going to help this team win more from here on out. It’s hardly ‘no contest’ that Harris is head and shoulders better than Punto. Because if he is, he sure hasn’t shown it for 2 months.
“Harris has had way more clutch hits then Punto.. ”
How many has he had, exactly?
While I’ll agree with all that think the bullpen probs are the most glaring, I still cannot quit feeling ill every time I see Punto OR Casilla in the lineup. I don’t get the feeling that Lexi learned anything by his demotion(s). (Punto is just, well…Punto.)
I think I saw somewhere that the Pirates want Liriano for Sanchez. If true, PLEASE Bill Smith, get off your keister and pull the trigger!
I disagree with the statement “Losing is always unpleasant, blowing big leads is even more so, and getting blown out is worse than the others combined.”
Getting blown out is much easier to stomach than blowing a ten-run lead. Blowing a ten-run lead has happened twice in my lifetime. Getting blown out happens a dozen times a year.
Career statistics:
Harris (6 seasons, 1,502 PAs):
.270 avg, .729 OPS, 26 HR, 86 2B, 143 RBI
Punto (9 seasons, 2,335 PAs):
.247 avg, .643 OPS, 12 HR, 83 2B, 158 RBI
Pete, you said 90 games were done, is it okay to look at their entire careers, or do we have to confine the analysis to what happened since Punto returned from the All Star break?
But I’ll be glad to analyze it from your point of view…what evidence do we have, other than a 3-hit game last Sunday against a rookie starter, that Nick Punto will take off in the remaining 67 games? Punto has 3, count them, 3 extra base hits since May 27.
Bill Smith is too intimidated to make a move at this point, all he does is get fleeced!
Pete,
I don’t even know why I’m doing this, because your statements are so ridiculous, but here goes
Batting stats last 14 days:
Punto .154/.303/.308
Harris .290/.333/.516
Perhaps it’s time for you to stop looking the other way on the topic of Brendan Harris?
I think the position of SS and Harris’ role on this team would rank very low on the totem pole of problems with the Twins.
Is he the answer at short for years to come? Probably not. But he is an absolutely serviceable player right now and every team has guys that are simply decent enough to hold a spot in the lineup. We aren’t going to field a team that has .300+ hitters 1-9 all with Gold Glove defense.
That being said, I woud like to see Harris find his pre-break stroke again.
But before I worry about that I’d like to see…(not necessarily in this order)
• A couple solutions to the starting rotation that is coming apart
• A high-caliber, everyday 2B
• Bullpen help
• Now maybe a 3B replacement
• A GM with a pulse
• Gardenhire to improve on some of his in-game decision making
Jason -
You can absolutely look at their entire careers. I encourage it.
Harris - 2008
.265/.327/.394
Punto - 2008
.284/.344/.382
Just last year, Nick Punto put up a statistical offensive year at least equal to that of Brendan Harris. How can it be that big of a stretch to think that Punto can be more valuable - especially if we include defense - than Harris for the remainder of the season?
great post, Eddie.
I expect Bill Smith to make a move within the next week, even if that’s nothing more than bringing Grudsie along.
I also would like for Harris to find his stroke again, although I imagine being benched against a lefty on Tues. night didn’t do much for his confidence.
Here I thought we were kind of set with Harris at SS and now Gardy has made a circus out of the infield situation. Man I hope Crede gets back in the lineup in the next couple days…
you win, Pete, I give up.
Pete,
I’m sure this is just oversight on your part, but you forgot their other 2008 stats:
Harris 29 2B, 7 HR, 49 RBI
Punto 19 2B, 2 HR, 28 RBI
Not time to panic. 2 bad outings by our pitchers. So what? Aside from this series and the Yankees the Twins have done pretty well the last 6 weeks. Bring up Valencia. Casilla will get on a hot streak sooner or later. We have a lot of games to play within the division yet. We need good games from Liriano, Baker, Blackburn and Swarzak. I have faith. Take 2 in LA and it is not a bad road trip that includes the 2 top teams in the west.
here’s a link to people twins could get for middle infield help. http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9841272/Indians-considering-trading-ace-Lee-to-Rays
This team desperately needs a move from the outside to address glaring needs Des, not more AAA fill-ins.
And simply hoping that Casilla gets on a hot streak sooner or later is the exact type of thing that has helped put Twins in this mediocre spot. I think everybody has seen enough from guys like him.
Bring in O. Cabrera. The dude can help shake things up and light a fire under these guys, who seem to be sleep walking right now.
And if getting crushed by the A’s this week is no time to panic, and with a truly average record, when is it ok to panic? When the team is at least 5 or 6 games back this time next month??
Harris since he has been a Twin has been solid.. LNP is like the rollercoaster at Valley Fair..
Jason save your breath you scored at TKO!
ES16 -
I didn’t overlook that at all. Harris hits for more power than Nick Punto. He also gets out more frequently. All that should have been obvious from the splits I posted for 2008.
Also -
Harris - 490 PA in 2008
Punto - 377 PA in 2008
Harris - 142 PA with RISP in 2008
Punto - 96 PA with RISP in 2008
Those differences in total plate appearances are going to give you a lot of the differences you see in the strict numerical counting of stats that you posted.
Also, regarding your splits -
Last 7 days -
Harris - .211/.250/.263
Punto - .222/.318/.444
Last 21 days -
Harris - .203/.242/.356
Punto - .162/.362/.256
14 day splits mean very little - probably a bit more than 7 day splits and a bit less than 21 day splits - so posting it doesn’t really prove much at all.
For the person asking yesterday the Twins are at the Hyatt Regency Century Plaza
Hopefully, if the Twins land Cabrera, they have the clubhouse leadership to keep this guy in line. He’s a hellava player.
here you go pete:
risp: H-.262, P-.235
2 out risp: H-.237, P- .188
late & close: H-.260, P- .125
is that what you wanted? or would you like #’s from some past year that work for you better?
Pete D,
Kinda like trying to explain green to a blind man, huh?
Pete D- thanks for putting up LNP stats for the last 7 days.
You just cemented Jasons point.. because LNP has been on FIRE the last 7 days I have seen that on the board numerous times from the few LNP supportors
Last 7 days LNP = .222/.318/.444 these are Ernie Banks like. This is one of his best 7 day stretches of the year! Pitiful
Thanks
It’s absolutely a contest. You cannot look at 1/2 of a season of stats and conclude that one player is better than another.
But we can look at the ‘number of hits on this road trip,’ 7, 14, and 21 day splits, and 2008?
LOL.
This is too easy.
Pete,
I posted the 14-day stats, because you made a point about how Punto has been playing better than Harris recently.
I’m with Jason. I give up. You’re right Pete. Punto is a great player. In fact he might be the best .203 hitter in the major leagues.
If this is truly a team that is as bad as everyone says then it is time to get rid of everyone for prospects and build for 2015. Apparently we need a new 2nd baseman, shortstop, 3rd baseman, 2 new PROVEN long relief and one proven setup man along with a PROVEN number one starter and another number 3 starter. Can’t get all those just by
opening the checkbook.
Giving Cuddyer time to hit a hot streak has helped this team quite a bit by the way.
Is Blackburn giving up 7 to the A’s the norm? Is perkins giving up 8 in 2 innings the norm?
I am fine with Sanchez but giving up one of our few remaining starters to get him?
The good news is we don’t have to have this debate about how to improve the bullpen, starting tonight, we get Crain back.
Yeah, Crain will make it all better…
Punto is better than Harris…because he was selected to play in the World Baseball Classic…on a serious side though, Brendan Harris really annoys me when he’s up to bat. I could probably down two beers easily before he’s all done with his nervous ticks before he steps back in the box.
Danny Valencia….goodbye Crede
Actually, Jason, Crain makes a lot more sense than Mulvey.
What was the point of bringing up Mulvey over the break anyway? Another long reliever…right after everyone has four days off? How many relievers that can’t be used in a close game does one team need? If you look at Gardy’s quotes about Mulvey it was clear he didn’t see any need to bring him up, either.
Crain may or may not provide some help. Probably not, but maybe.
Mulvey was never going to provide the Twins with anything they didn’t already have–another sh!tty long reliever who can only be used when the game’s no longer in question. They already have a couple of those. It DOESN’T MATTER WHO PITCHES THOSE INNINGS. What matters is who pitches when the game is still winnable, or loseable.
Bringing up Mulvey never made any sense whatsoever. He hadn’t even pitched in relief in Rochester. Just more thoughtless, make a move to make a move, “we need a seven man bullpen, but it doesn’t matter who” roster management by Bill Smith.
Agree Chief- I think it just allowed Bill Smith to say another player from the Santana trade made it to the Bigs!
Houston Jimenez
I wonder why the Twins stay so far away from Anaheim Stadium when they come to town. The Century Plaza is about an hours drive from the stadium and is located in Los Angeles. A lot of other teams stay right here in Anaheim or Irvine.
Chief
Was Mulvey even on the 40 man roster before he was brought up??
ggg -
“is that what you wanted? or would you like #’s from some past year that work for you better?”
I want to know how many ‘clutch’ hits he has. What is the definition of clutch?
You are trying to draw information from a sample size that is too small. For example, last year Nick Punto had a .317/.411/.429 line during ‘Late and Close’ situations. It’s pretty pointless to look at those stats based on the small number of plate appearances they actually cover.
Houston and USAFChief -
I’m not trying to use the 7, 14, or 21 day splits as proof of anything. Just showing how they can fluctuate pretty differently between arbitrary dates. Posting the 14 day splits - or 7 day, or 21 day - is pretty pointless. Again, it is just way too small of a sample size.
ES16 -
What I said is that since Punto came back from the DL, his offensive numbers have been roughly equal to that of Brendan Harris. Do you disagree with that point?
I’ve never once claimed Nick Punto to be a great player. I haven’t even claimed he should be starting over Brendan Harris. I’m pointing out the silliness in Jason’s posts - day after day - about the terribleness of Nick Punto, while he completely disregards how Brendan Harris has been playing.
Because all my baseball “friends” here in SoCal know that I am a Twins lifer, I being besieged with wager offers on the Angels-Twins series.
Apparently they think that I am rich (wrong!), stupid (possibly?) and so emotionally attached to the Twins (wrong!) that I am willing to help all my “friends” during the current economic crisis. (Not bloody likely!)
I’d like them all to take their Stimulus Package money and shove it up their @#$%@#$%@#$%!
I dunno who’s better between Harris and Punto… but what I do know is that there HAS to be a better option than having BOTH of them out there night in and night out.
… and don’t even get me started on Casilla.
“I being besieged with wager offers on the Angels-Twins series.”
Houston Jimenez, Are you postin as sane?
LOL
sane,
I know what your saying.. I am NOT betting any of my friends this year even with Torii and Vlad out.. Not after what I just saw in Oakland…
sane,
On another topic. Got any ideas on how to get in on some of that “Stimulus Package money”? I keep hearin the term but I can’t find the line.
Been too busy to catch up on the comments today but I scanned enough, I think, to see the general tone. Not surprising, all things considered.
I don’t think there’s cause for jumping off a bridge, no matter how badly one particular series went. But this 4-gamer with the LAAAAA looms pretty big… or at least it would if I were the GM of this team.
The Angels are a playoff calibre team. If I’m the one making roster decisions, I will be watching closely to see whether my team is competitive in these games, regardless of what the W-L results are.
If it looks like the two teams at least appear to belong on the same field, I could ignore the two disastrous games in Oakland, get on the phones, and find a couple of players that will (a) constitute an improvement over the status quo (which can’t be all that hard), and (b) either expect to be a significant contributor in 2010 as well or be someone marketable that I can get some return for in the off-season.
But a repeat of the humiliations suffered in Oakland would cause me to take a family vacation and start thinking about next year. Sure, I’d publicly say, “we think Grudzy can help us and the trade deadline isn’t really a deadline because we expect a lot of players to pass through waivers, so we can still make deals if we think they’ll help the team.”
But my unspoken message, to the manager, coaches and players would be, “Guys, you just haven’t demonstrated that as a team you’re good enough to warrant giving up anything of value for a quick fix this season. There are just too many holes to try to fill. Good luck the rest of the year and I hope you prove me wrong.”
And honestly, while my belief remains that any time you’re only a couple of games out of the Division lead this late in the season, you ought to try to cash in on that position, I can’t say I would really blame the GM for taking that approach.
“Got any ideas on how to get in on some of that “Stimulus Package money”?”
Got some.
Spent it.
Wasn’t all that stimulating.
Jeff in So Cal,
As you know, the Century Plaza is closer to better nightclubs in the “greater LA area” than Anahiem.
A skeptic would say something like-
“that way they can go somewhere after they get their asses handed to them in this series, to take their minds off the game”.
Of course, this .500 team will probably rise to the challenge and “battle their tails” off to a series split.
Here is a strange split this season:
against teams with record better or equal to .500, the Twins are 35-32
against teams with record worse than .500, the Twins are 13-15
Blowouts happen all the time. Remember pasting the Sox, 20-1, back in May? Chicago has bounced back nicely. In fact, they’re probably the team to beat in this division. In fact, how is it that Kenny Williams, year in and year out, is able to make some sort of splash at the trading deadline to try and improve his team, without giving up any of his core players??? Why can’t we EVER do something to TRY and improve this club. I’m tired of hearing the same old reason. I’m tired of bringing washed up players on board as well (Grudz, and all the others over the past several years). And, we definitely need some sort of a bat available off the bench (other than Buscher). This division is right there for the taking, but our GM doesn’t seem to want to do anything about it.
Ironically, I think Des in his/her sarcasm hit it pretty much on the head:
2B
SS
3B
RP
true number 1 type starter
That’s what they need to improve.
They appear to have a legit 3B prospect, so I’d not invest any other prospects or real money there. I don’t think anyone would argue they have a “for sure” prospect at SS or 2B right now (I’d consider moving Revere there, but that’s a different conversation).
They have some RP and SP prospects, though. I’d probably not invest there, unless you are trading the SP prospects for a great prospect or proven SP (that has at least 2+ years left under control).
Do they needt to solve all of those problems to be contendors - no. But, its hard to win when your SP are imploding (god how I hate depth over quality), and your 7-9 hitters are so bad that they are actually capable of wiping out the sublimity (word?) of M&M&K.
t98,
It does seem that the team easily falls prey to the disease of “playing up or down” to their competition.
last year at this date the twins were 55-46 .545, finished at 88-75 .540; one game short.
this year they are 48-47 .505, and need to go 40-27 to match last year.
reasonable expectations?? does this look like a team that can go 40-27?
Wow, I just checked the stats for the American League!
Mauer is #1 in OPS
Morneau is #3
Kubel is #8
How bad are the other hitters on this roster that they are 6th in runs scored (and only 3 out of 7th, or League median)?
JC,
Your points are quite valid.
I feel that this is just another series in this strange year that is the Twins ‘09 edition.
I don’r have the feeling that this series will determine whether or not they become “buyers” or “sellers”.
With a team that is drawing in the upper 3rd in attendence in MLB this year in a crappy, winnable division, you would think that the FO has the revenue to at least attempt to win now.
Of course, they also could also ride the
“Final 2 months in the Metrodome Tour” all the way to the Pohlad’s bank and save their $$$ until next year…
ggg,
look at this:
Twins 17-12 (.586)
Tigers 19-15 (.559)
White Sox 22-19 (.537)
Record of the 3 top teams against AL Central opponents this season.
The Twins have 5 more games than the Tigers and 12 more than the W.sox against AL Central teams.
If they keep it up and beat on the Central esp. Detroit and Chicago, they might win this thing. The next Chicago series is close to a must sweep.
wow, the Sox have played 12 more games against the division than the Twins have? wow. Of course, I’d feel better about that if the memory of the KC series from last year wasn’t so fresh in my mind still. But, still, that is something to provide hope, thrylos.
mike,
I think the one big piece (and I think Gardy realizes it too) is a horse in the MI. IMO that’s why they are even lookin at a guy like Cabrera. With such a bad rep. A strong SS leads the team and helps the fielders and pitchin staff (mentally) in ways that really can’t be understood by most people (apparently) unless you’ve experienced it. This exhibits itself as increased confidence and the attendant quicker reactions. It conversely affects your opponents.
That’s why I say get JJ Hardy. I betcha he’s in our price range.
I have been checking the trib’s website all day to see a story about a “blockbuster trade” involving Halladay and Marco Scutaro to the Twins for some prospects. In the real world I don’t see anything big coming down but I’ve sure been wrong lots of times before. Come on BS, prove us wrong and bring us some players that will help this team - moving Crain from Rochester back to the cities is not an answer.
Read a little blurb I just noticed over at MLBTR. They referenced an article from the Toronto Sun about the Jays’ potential trades. I followed the link to actually read the whole articles and found two items particularly interesting.
The writer quotes a “visiting scout” as saying, “They tell me they are getting calls from teams you would not guess if I gave you 10 guesses. Not all the names in the papers and elsewhere are accurate.”
I found that surprising because, frankly, it seems to me like virtually every contending team in MLB (except the Twins) has been involved in media speculation concerning Halladay. Not to mention at least one non-contender (that would be your team, Johan).
The Phillies, Red Sox, Yankees, Angels, Dodgers, Rangers, Cardinals, Cubs, White Sox, Brewers, Tigers, and recently the Rays, have all been mentioned. None of them would really constitute a surprise trading partner at this point.
Who does that leave, among contending teams? Mariners? Rockies? Giants? Astros?… Twins?
The other item in the article that caught my eye was some speculation that the Jays may be looking to make a Halladay trade even broader. They would consider adding some pieces to the deal to get the return they want (and, in the process, dump more salary).
Wouldn’t it be just about enough to cause mass hysteria around these blogs if poor, abused, Bill Smith made a deal next week that broke the Twins’ prospect/salary banks and brought, say, Scutaro and/or Downs to Minnesota along with Halladay?
“JP, I’ll send you Young or Gomez (I could even be talked in to both, perhaps), any position prospect in the minors not named Valencia (we’re going to need him next year), any RP in the organization not named Nathan, and if there’s any middle infielder on our major or minor league rosters you think can help you, just name him and he’s yours. Still not enough? Call me… let’s talk.”
OK my fantasy break is over… back to work.
Can understand everyone’s frustration with the middle infielder but the real problem lately has been the starting pitching. LNP was adequate when Casilla hit but now with both of them not hitting everything get’s exposed. This team is built on the premise that the starters will pitch 7 quality innings with 3 or fewer runs. That is the type of offense the Twins have, just enough to win if the pitching holds the line. Having said that, who would you even target that is realistic? Halladay no chance, to keep him not worth the risk reward of going in the tank, Cliff Leem Indians will never trade him here. John Garland from the D-backs now that might be someone that can be had, has playoff experience and would be motivated against the White Sox. Everyone want’s a bat, would be better if the starting pitching could be shored up. Garza sure would look good in the Twins uniform right now, but Gardy didn’t like his tude, and banked on Bonser being healthy. One thing you can almost bank on is the Twins not really making any deals that will help, that is the mentality we have all become accustomed to. Sad but true, Souhan already said it and set us up for nothing to happen.
We’re all just stooges who follow this team, genuinely care about them, and just don’t get any support from the front office. You’d think we’d have learned by now that we’re never going to be great. As long as we’re competitive, fans will fill the seats, but the F.O. won’t have to break the bank to make us great. The bottome line is: At least we’re not Pirate, Reds, or Royal fans.
Pete D- I agree Puntos best numbers are equal to Harris’ worse numbers over the last week. Do you agree?
So Cal guy my bad..
Twins are at the Double Tree in Orange
speaking of blogs: http://dctwins.wordpress.com/
JC,
The guys I’ve read they could add dump salary are Wells and Rios. Not cheap. And not aligned with the Twins needs.
Take 1 releiver off the market the Rockies get Rafael Betancourt.
Pete, either you are related to Gardenhire, Punto, or you are President of the three-member Nick Punto fan club. Sheesh! Punto is terrible. Admit it and please leave it at that.
I felt bad about us getting crushed yesterday, but how do you think Ray’s fanns feel today, Buerhle is 6 outs away from a perfect game.
Buerhle 3 outs away from perfect game…
Whities are going to be tough the rest of the way, folks. They have the leadership and they have the manager for it.
sometimes when I am too busy to read through all the insightful posts on this board, I do a quick scan for “T”s posts as his unwavering defense of the Pohlads and the Twins FO is always good for a chuckle. However, I see that he has not posted today, which might mean that even he is not able to defend the Pohlads. This could be a sign that the roof surely is caving in, and even T wants the FO to do something.
Good for Buerhle. The Twins sure could use a veteran workhorse like him in the rotation.
Paul, I realize that the Jays would love to dump Wells and Rios, but the Toronto writer wasn’t even mentioning them. He specifically mentioned that Scutaro, Downs, Frasor and Tallet as being players the Jays might consider packaging with Halladay.
I think everyone, including the Jays, recognize that nobody will be taking Wells off their hands.
There is simply too much wrong with this team to fix at the trade deadline. We don’t have any SP that I would want to hang my hat on in the playoffs. We have ONE decent 3B and he can’t stay on the field. We traded Garza, Santana, and Bartlett and the players we got for them have all been flops or worse than their counterpart in the trades. Hunter walks!
HOW GOOD WOULD WE BE RIGHT NOW WITH HUNTER, SANTANA, AND BARTLETT?
Now honestly tell me this team is under good management.
We didn’t get a single above aerage player for our organizatons two best power pitchers? What has gone wrong here? Has some savage capitalist reptile gotten control of the Twins? Yup and all they (Pohlads)care about is the bottom line. Thats why it’s so hard to cheer for the Twins when they ALWAYS do he fiscally prudent thing that leaves the fans feeling like a drunken man at the strip club desperaely yurning to go all the way!
“Thats why it’s so hard to cheer for the Twins when they ALWAYS do he fiscally prudent thing that leaves the fans feeling like a drunken man at the strip club desperaely yurning to go all the way!”
shazel,
A very interesting perspective.
I think everyone, including the Jays, recognize that nobody will be taking Wells off their hands.
Gomez for Halladay and Wells.
I wonder if Toronto would seriously consider that.
They get little back for Halladay, but get out from under the Wells contract.
Not that the Twins would to that, it’s just sort of an interesting academic exercise.
Chief,
Im’ thinkin that Wells was a likely PED guy. What with how his stats dropped off the past few years.
Hey. Wait a minute. I don’t think they can check for HGH yet. Can they? Maybe the team could spike the after game buffet table.
HOW GOOD WOULD WE BE RIGHT NOW WITH HUNTER, SANTANA, AND BARTLETT?
Hunter was a free agent after the 2007 season. He declined the Twins offer and went for the most money. Santana was to be a free agent after the 2008 season. He declined the Twins extension offer so there was no way he would have opted to be with the Twins. These guys controlled their fate.
Bartlett would have been in Gardy’s doghouse (as he was during his stay with the Twins).
I don’t think they can check for HGH yet. Can they?
One can check for HGH with a blood test. The union allows only urine tests. There is a urine test for HGH in development.
“I think I saw somewhere that the Pirates want Liriano for Sanchez. If true, PLEASE Bill Smith, get off your keister and pull the trigger!”
~Soooo, the rotation is then Baker, Blackburn, Swarzak, Dickey, and Duensing??? Problem(s) solved. World Series here we come!
Hey here’s another thought. The 104 guys on the list tested positive for steriods. The users knew then that steriods was detectable. They also knew HGH was not detectable. If 14% of the players got caught using an illegal substance that they knew WAS detectable, what % probably used HGH, that they knew was undetectable?
t98,
Thanks for the info.
The first step in correcting a situation that needs attention is to define the problem. As a group we cannot even get past step one. As a matter of fact (or opinion), there is no single facet or area of the team that has NOT been identified as the problem at some point or by some posters (ie, SP, RP, Inf-D, OF, hitting, power, etc.). One could therefore conclude that the current Twins roster is a far cry from contender for anything significant.
Im’ thinkin that Wells was a likely PED guy. What with how his stats dropped off the past few years.
Maybe so. Who knows? Who cares? My guess is he was never that good, and turned a good year or two into a really really big contract. Not the first to do that, won’t be the last.
The point was…if a team was willing to take on his contract, how little would Toronto accept for Halladay?
And like I said, it’s not really about the Twins. Just sort of an interesting question, to me at least.
How much time / money is left on Wells’ contract?
I remember some people poo-pooing the idea of getting Washburn during the off-season but he would look great in Twins uniform right now. I really think that thye need a tough veteran lije him to anchor the staff.
I think I saw somewhere that the Pirates want Liriano for Sanchez
That was in Sid’s column the other day and his only source was a conversation between Sid and Reusse over the water cooler talking about what they think it would take to bring in Sanchez. As valid as any speculation in the comments section here…
How much time / money is left on Wells’ contract?
Per Cot’s:
7 years/$126M (2008-14)
-signed extension with Toronto 12/06
-$25.5M signing bonus (paid in 3 $8.5M installments, March 1 2008-10)
-08:$0.5M, 09:$1.5M, 10:$12.5M, 11:$23M, 12:$21M, 13:$21M, 14:$21M
-full no-trade clause
-Wells may opt out of contract after 2011
-award bonuses: $0.25M for MVP, $0.2M for World Series MVP, $0.15M for LCS MVP, $0.1M for receiving most All-Star votes in league
-Wells to donate $143,000 annually to Blue Jays charity
That is a truly onorous contract. Probably second only to Zito’s deal on “worst contracts in MLB.”
Yeah, bet the Jays will be trying to unload that one on anybody interested in Halladay.
I wish I had the money to buy the Twins. I would fire all bloggers and do what I frikken wanted to do.
Why wasn’t Gambino given a shot instead of Crain?
Honestly, Halladay and Wells for a bag of balls would be close to about right.
There is .1 billion dollars left on that contract…and I thought Puntos was a raw deal.
Why wasn’t Gambino given a shot instead of Crain?
AAA numbers 2009:
Crain: 2.60 ERA, 1.212 WHIP, 11.4 K/9, 2.75 K/BB (.317 BABIP)
Gabino: 2.93 ERA, 1.060 WHIP, 5.4 K/9, 2.06 K/BB (.237 BABIP)
Gabino is a “control” pitcher. Not that much different than Keppel (other than endurance) in many respects… I would not be surprised if he is left unprotected in the off-season, or if he is traded before than now that he has some value. Not a spring chicken either, he is turning 26 in a month.
Same reason Tolleson hasn’t been given a change. The twins are freakin stupid.
