Michael Cuddyer … Alex Rios … Cuddyer … Rios
Posted on August 11th, 2009 – 1:06 PMBy Howard
Michael Cuddyer offensive stats
Rios vs. Cuddyer in the field.
Cuddyer’s contract:
3 years/$24M (2008-10)
-
- $2.75M signing bonus
- 08:$5M, 09:$6.75M, 10:$8.5M, 11:$10.5M club option ($1M buyout)
Rios’ contract:
7 years/$69.835M (2008-14), plus 2015 club option
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- 08:$0.735M, 09:$5.9M, 10:$9.7M, 11:$12M, 12:$12M, 13:$12.5M, 14:$12.5M, 15:$13.5M club option ($1M buyout)
- full no-trade clause, 2009-10
- may block trades to 6 clubs from 2011 to end of deal
Contract source: Cot’s Baseball Contracts.
I know we’re miffed at the Twins — and rightfully so — for not being more aggressive about fixing what’s ailed them. But taking on $61 million through the end of 2014 for … Alex Rios?
74 Responses to "Michael Cuddyer … Alex Rios … Cuddyer … Rios"
Rios is in the midst of a terrible season and Cuddyer is having a career year, so it isn’t exactly a great time to compare them. If Rios doesn’t rebound over the course of his contract, then this will be a horrible move for the Sox.
If he does come back to something near his career line of .285/.335/.451, this deal will seem much better.
That doesn’t mean it’ll be good, but a lot depends on how Rios does next season and beyond.
A 1st ever 1st?
I wonder if Kenny Williams is busy explaining this claim to Jerry Reinsdorf.
Now lets do Delmon Young vs. Alex Rios…
Though it doesn’t matter. Twins need starting pitching.
I’ve always thought the same thing. Rios has a little more speed, but they are essentially the same player. I’ll take Cuddy.
So Howard, what conclusions are you drawing from these numbers?
And will those be the same if Rios gets a boost from the trade and realizes his potential over the next few years? Id adding Rios a long term upgrade if they Sox lose/let go of Dye?
Money aside, if you were the Twins GM who would you rather have at this point of his career?
Finally, Can Rios pitch????
For all the critism the Twins management takes you have to give them credit for never really taking on an organizational crippling contract. The worst may have been Joe Mays’. But even that wasn’t an absurd amount of money or time (like Zito). And I believe the only player they lost that are/stayed good who we could have afforded was Torii Hunter. I still believe the Twins are among the best in team management.
i would rather have him than whoever our 3rd outfielder is right now (gomez or young).
Except I kind of wish they still had Garza and Bartlett.
I’d be willing to bet that if Delmon plays full time, weather with the TWins or someone else, from 2010 - 2014, he puts up a better 5 year stat line than Rios. He’ll end up short in the HR column, but be better just about everywhere else.
And this is coming from one of the biggest anti-Delmon guys you’ll ever meet…
It really shows the differences in philosophies between the two teams, and reminds me why it’s so much sweeter to beat the Sox than any other team. Six more chances to do that this year, which could make all the difference.
Heh, I made the coparison on twitter last night, i like Rios, just alot of money if he has peaked.
That’s a lotta IF for $61 million, dwade!
can’t someone work punto into this discussion? oh wait — i just did!
Howard, agreed.
plus the fact that if the Twins were the ones who would claim Rios, the Fans would be fairly upset when Mauer could not be re-signed or extended.
Because for the Twins, this is the real choice: Mauer or Rios?
I think that they chose well.
The Twins play the Jays quit a bit in spring training and, let me tell you this, Rios looks like a ballplayer. Based on his body-size/type one can easily imagine him as a superstar. (I say the same thing about Gomez BTW.
Still, there’s no way signing him would make a lick of sense for the Twins. Hard to say for the Whities but over the long haul, it seems untenable. (Of course over the long-haul we’ll all be dead)
I think we all know the answer here. Rios is obviously the preference over Cuddyer, because:
1. Rios gets paid more.
2. Rios was claimed by the brilliant Sox GM.
3. Cuddyer was hurt last year and Rios wasn’t.
Finally, the most important factor around these parts…
2. Rios isn’t Michael Cuddyer.
Why compare? It’s a huge risk signing Rios, but bottom line is the White Sox got better. Maybe they think they have a good enough team to catch the Tigers and make the playoffs, and maybe they think once they get there anything can happen.
Howard,
Yes the White Sox are on the hook for a lot more money than the Twins. They provide equal value to the team hitting wise, even though they are both different types of hitters.
Fielding, even though the stats suggest Rios is better, but just not a lot, for those of us who watch Cruddy run around there and misplay balls, I think the actual difference is greater. His (Cruddy) RF is a lot easier to defend than Rios. Plus Rios is only 28, and Cruddy is 30.
Although I think Rios is an upgrade, you are right in pointing out that it’s too much money to spend, with the difference not being that great.
I also think you have a man crush on Cruddy.
I, for one, have never said I’d rather have Rios. I’d rather have a lot of players for that contract. That’s the point. If the team cuts $15MM from it’s payroll, I’d like them to spend SOME of it on players in their prime.
What I want, is for the Twins to get better. They are unlikely to do that adding Ayala, Baustista, Cabrerra, Guardado, Lamb, Everret, career minor league pitchers, et. ecetera.
My biggest fear is that they sign Mauer, and then don’t add anything else while he’s here because he’s too expensive. Then you just have KG and the Timberwolves (though slightly better).
I hate typos. Maybe I should type these up in e-mail first, so I can edit them…..
“Maybe they think they have a good enough team to catch the Tigers and make the playoffs”
I thought this before they aquired Rios.
I still think the Tigers finish 3rd. Just a gut feeling
The length of contract is a bit troubling, but $12 million a year for a player who’s at worst decent is not going to cripple the White Sox. Would you rather pay an aging Thome or Dye $13 million for next year, or a younger Rios? They’re probably going to put up similar offensive #’s and Rios can actually play defense.
I’m kind of confused why everyone wants to make this comparison. If you’re asking me which player I’d rather have on my team right now, I’d say “His name is Rios and he dances on the sand…”
I applaud the White Sox for opening the checkbook. Guillen has some pressure now…he’s been given all the parts and he should win this division.
As for the Twins, Cuddyer is a nice piece of our puzzle. Pitching is a different story.
Rios is in the midst of a terrible season…
There’s a saying in the stock market: “There’s no such thing as one bad quarter.” Rios may be in decline — Toronto apparently thinks so, or at least they think there are better values available.
2. Rios was claimed by the brilliant Sox GM.
lol, yeah. But KW owes his job to AJ Pierzynski…and Doug Eddings.
I agree Jason. I’m not sure why it is really even relevant.
Is this a good acquisition for the White Sox in 2009? Maybe.
Is this a good acquisition for the White Sox from 2010-2015? Maybe.
Is this a good move by the Blue Jays? Probably.
Does any of that have to do with Michael Cuddyer? Absolutely not.
Please…..At least the Sox are trying to make a move and do something. D. Young as the next Mantle, give me a break…….
Maybe, just maybe Alex Rios is an amateur magician just like Cuddyer. I mean how else does he command that kind of contract from Toronto. That’s the connection everyone is missing.
In his 5 year career, Rios has played about 100 games in CF. He won’t be a big defensive upgrade for the Sox. As a hitter he has a career OPS+ of 104 and averages 16 HR per year. At age 28 he is already in his prime and unlikely to improve much as a player. Why would you want give that guy $60 million over 5 years?
This is what happens when a front office makes moves to show that they “are trying” or that they “care”. They waste money and/or prospects and hurt the team’s future outlook.
Thanks Howard it’s nice to see someone who agrees with me on Rios.
SethSpeaks…your 2:37 post…. Amen!!!
The White Sox want win championships! The Twins want to save money!
I was hoping the Twins would try to sneak Cuddyer through to do a swap for Rios but if Rios has peaked, that contract is an albetros.
Why would we need Rios? According to the so called experts that post on these baseball blogs Delmon Young is the next Hank Aaron.
Maybe, just maybe Alex Rios is an amateur magician just like Cuddyer.
Maybe J.P. Ricciardi is a magician, too. He made Rios’ contract disappear and transferred it to Jerry Reinsdorf’s pocket.
Fran, Maybe, just maybe, all of us bloggers are magicians and could do wonders if we owned and managed the Twins. $61M???? Not a chance.
PUNTO….$4 million
Sorry, almost $70M, Less of a chance.
My hunch is both Jake Peavy and Alex Rios will be very good-to-great players for the White Sox for years to come…
The reason this is a story is because of money. The fact is the White Sox, even as a second-fiddle team to the Cubs, are in a market where they can and will spend and the Twins lack at least one of those components.
It’s easy for Twins fans to say “what are they thinking taking on that contract.” Well, I’ll tell you what they’re thinking…they’re thinking they want to surround the team with proven veterans and not dart-board prospects. That’s the White Sox’ way. The Twins and Royals way is to put a bunch of young players on the roster and hope a few of them stick.
The frustrating part for Twins fans is that none of our young starters–each of whom make less than $1 million this season–have stuck.
For a guy with his numbers Cuddyer sure takes a lot of grief.
My hunch is that Peavy will spend a significant amount of time on the DL over the next 3 years, and when he is healthy his numbers won’t be anywhere near as good as they were in pitcher friendly Petco pitching to NL West teams.
My hunch is that Rios will continue to be a very average player earning an above average salary, thus preventing the Sox from signing someone good.
Hooray Kenny Williams!
“may block trades to 6 clubs from 2011 to end of deal”
I wonder what clubs these are? Or does he get to hold off making a list of 6 clubs until 2011? Are the Twins on that list, or will be?
Why is this discusion even taking place? This move isn’t and shouldn’t be an explanation for why the Twins didn’t make a claim for Rios,or about Cuddy vs. Rios.
The White Sox saw an opportunity to pick up a relatively young player with a better than average track record and had the money to do it.The same goes for Peavy.They have plenty of money coming off the books next year and felt they could handle the contracts.IMO Kenny Williams made two very good moves.Bottom line is The Sox got not only better,they got younger (Peavy and Rios vs. Thome and Contraras).
The Sox are still the team to beat this year IMO,and they have managed to set themselves up for the near future by looking somewhere beyond their noses.
The Twins front office can try and spin the deals anyway they want,but they are spinning from fear.Forget this year.Next March,when hope springs eternal,the dreaded Whities will have successfully reloaded.The Twins will still be looking for long term solutions at 2B,SS,front line starting pitching and bullpen help.So much for hope.
Dover hit the nail on the head.
I am I the only one here who realizes that Nick Punto will not be a starter next season for the Twins? Why prolong the inevitable? Shouldn’t Gardy go with either Harris or Casilla at second when Crede’s healthy?
Jason,
Must you change every subject to YOUR subject?
I hope that Punto kidnaps you and keeps you in his home, so you never have to think another(?) NON-Punto-related thought for the rest of your life.
Jason, Seth, Pro, agreed. Since the Twins FO does not much to improve the best Twins’ fans can do is try to pick apart the moves that the White Sox DO make???
Jason, I would really love to believe you about LNP, but as long as Gardy is here and Punto is here, Gardy will find a way to start Punto.
If you want to take bets on whether Punto, Harris, or Casilla is NOT a starter for the Twins on opening day, 2010, I’d be happy to take the Punto side of that bet.
I’m not sure any of them will be, but the contract they gave Punto and Gardy’s affinity for him would make him the guy I’d put my money on out of those three guys.
“Shouldn’t Gardy go with either Harris or Casilla at second when Crede’s healthy?”
Not if he wants to put his best team on the field.
who realizes that Nick Punto will not be a starter next season for the Twins? Why prolong the inevitable? Shouldn’t Gardy go with either Harris or Casilla at second when Crede’s healthy?
your wish happened. Casilla is starting today and Punto sitting. Harris at 3B
I’d venture to say Harris will never play another inning at 2B in a Twins uniform.
Now, you are picking between Casilla and Punto, and in 3 weeks, Tolbert to play 2B. I’m hoping Casilla stays warm (can’t say he’s hot, and can’t expect it) and keeps the job for the rest of the year.
I’m OK with Casilla at 2B for 2010, provided the line up has improved enough for Casilla to hit 9th
T98: where did you get the line up?
Crikket there is one way to solve Punto starting in 2010.
Gardehires need for Punto in the lineup is actually down on my list for reasons he should be dismissed at the end of the season.
This team is now a total of six games above .500 I believe,since the ‘06 run.All Gardy’s fault? Certainly not,but alot of managers have been fired for less.He needs to shoulder some of the blame.
The “Twins Way” has become a myth.The Twins make more fundamental mistakes now than they have since the Billy Gardner days.That IMO does fall on his shoulders.
Gardy is a great quote when he’s front running,but he is a finger pointer when things go bad.His “let’s get after it” and “bust our tails off” schtick has grown tiresome with many fans and I would guess a few of the players.Especially the ones he loves to blame personally for loses.
Throw in his love for his alter ego in LNP, and I would suggest there is ample reason to at least put him on notice for 2010.Afterwords he and LNP can ride off into the sunset together.
I think it should be noted that Cuddyer is NOT having a career year; 2006 was his career year. The Twins expect a .277 average with medium power (19 HR so far) for $7-8 million/year averaged investment. He’s only driven in 56 RBI’s and will come no where close to the magic 100 number. I think the Twins would be pleased with Cuddyer ending up in the .275/25 HR/80 RBI range.
Rios will hit 10-15 points higher than Cuddyer, will hit around the same number of HRs, and drive in the same, or less number of RBIs. Lets not forget Cuddyers CANNON of an arm in RF.
$7-8 million a year for Cuddyer or $10-12 million for Rios?
Lets give our guys some credit and admit we’re doing just fine having Cuddyer for another year.
What the Twin’s have failed in this comparison is a long-term answer. They still hope Gomez or Young would turn into their version of Rios. Last we all checked, that’s not happening.
They still hope Gomez or Young would turn into their version of Rios. Last we all checked, that’s not happening.
age 23 season for Rios: .286/.338/.383 1 HR, 28 RBI (460 PA). Young’s age 21 and 22 season when he was playing full-time were better, while Gomez in his age 23 season this season is hitting .238/.295/.371 with 3 HR and 26 RBI in 265 PA.
Still too early
Cuddyer constantly gets lambasted for not hitting with RISP. But while few would mistake him for an MVP candidate, he seems to have a knack for hitting leadoff doubles or bases-empty home runs in low scoring games.
Anybody have a stat on that?
Also, when he does hit with RISP, his detractors seem to disappear for a few hours or a few days.
Things would be pretty good if Cuddyer really was one of the team’s biggest problems.
Anybody have a stat on that?
just this:
2009 with RISP, Twins’ OF:
Young: .323
Span: .309
Gomez: .296
Cuddyer: .229
good enough?
“good enough?”
nope. not even close — that’s the one that always gets trotted out by the anti-cuddyer crowd.
the stat i’d like to see is doubles or home runs in 1-0 or 2-1 games. or leading off in late innings of close games. and for cuddyer i seem to recall many.
they can be as meaningful as with risp, especially since hits with risp of a 15-1 game count the same as a 1-0 game.
thrylos, thanx for the timely and informative stats. The fact is, the Twins young outfielders (Gomez and Young) are holding their own for their age, and should only get significantly better. Learning how to play “at the Major League level” is at least a 5 to 7-year curve for all but the most talented players (Mauer). Writing off a 23-year old because he’s not living up to an uninformed fan’s expectations is very risky. Just look at Torri Hunter’s career arc as an example. That said, there is still the risk that Young and/or Gomez could never live up to expectations. Be careful what you ask for…
“the stat i’d like to see is doubles or home runs in 1-0 or 2-1 games.”
Well, baseball-reference.com has a ‘Close & Late’ split, which shows Cuddyer hitting .255/.388/.436 in situations that match this description -
“Late & Close are PA in the 7th or later with the batting team tied, ahead by one, or the tying run at least on deck.”
It’s funny how the twins get slammed for not making a move, then they make moves this year and people still say they aren;t trying, I like OC we should’ve signed him in the offseason, Pavano, not hoping in the bandwagon but atleast they took a shot on someone as for Rios why is this a discussion, Sox need a CF so its a fit for them and there isn’t a spot on the Twins for Rios in the long run so why even bring it up?
So, thrylos, you suggested the Twins should DFA Cuddyer if they couldn’t get something for him in trade. This was about two months into thje season. Do you stand by that, or have you reconsidered?
the stat i’d like to see is doubles or home runs in 1-0 or 2-1 games. or leading off in late innings of close games. and for cuddyer i seem to recall many.
ok, how about this:
“Late and Close” as defined by baseball reference:
Young .263 (38 PA)
Cuddyer .255 (67 PA)
Span .224 (66 PA)
Gomez .215 (32 PA)
Kirby, 2 words: Delm on Young
You can’t predict how things are going to go in baseball
No matter what the Twins do someone is going to whine here. LOL
One note of optimism for those who read Joe C’s blog yesterday about how well the Twins would have to play over the final two months to have a chance to win the division.
If you take one 4-game Twins winning streak, matched with a Tigers 4-game losing streak, you get the Twins 1-game out with 7-weeks to go in the season. While Joe’s column was statistically correct, it is a red herring arguement. If the Twins get hot and put a little pressure on the Kitties and the Whities, a fold would not be a surprise. Remember 2006?
The Twins were 10-1/2 Games out in August and won the division on the last day of the season. It’s not over, baby!
“ok, how about this”
nope. not looking for averages. i’m looking for specific games where cuddyer has hit a bases-empty double or home run in a low-scoring or close game — usually, but not always, in the late innings.
Culpurple,
It’s not over. Here is my math:
the Twins are 5 games behind the Tiggers and 1 behind the White Sox in the loss column.
The Tiggers are playing 3 more at the Red Sox, the Twins are playing 3 hosting the Royals
Sweep both ways gets the Twins 2 back from the Tiggers.
The Twins are playing the Tiggers 6 times and the WSox another 6.
it is up to them, but they do have to step it up and look at every game from now on like game 163. And than includes everyone, from the manager to the coaches to the players to the bat boys.
Agreed, T98. Would anyone really care how many games over .500 the Twins have to play if they narrow the gap right away? The heat is on the leaders from that point, and the Twins have the favorable schedule. I happen to think this team, with their offensive and defensive talent, has a good streak in them.
However, this team has been known to play “down to their competition”, so they can’t just throw the gloves on the field and expect to sweep the Royals and Indians. One game at a time…
You know what happens now, Randy Ruiz becomes the Blue Jays Big Papi and the Twins will again be left wondering what if.
T98,
Are you Delmon’s agent? You always stats that slant him as the favorite. You should help negotiate a trade out of Minnesota for him.
Delmon looks OK tonight. Threw out a runner at home and hit a homer.
He’s just a slow starter.
This is about the worst as far as win/loss record they’ve been all season, right? Not bad enough to ensure a big draft pick next year, not good enough to even look like a .500 team, and the White Sox at the very least look to be in pretty good shape for the next couple of years. They actually go out and patch up the 2 biggest holes they have with the best available pieces. I’m a little concerned the Twins are going to turn into the Astros of the AL Central for the next several years. Sure, they have another year of Mauer and another few years of Morneau, and Kubel and Cuddyer have really rounded out the offense this year, but I’ve seen enough of those two to know that they are anything but a sure thing… and M&M isn’t going to make for W’s all by themselves. Its going to take a small ball, small market, small wallet team like this years to develop a whole new rotation, and by then, who knows what will be left of the offensive pieces they have now. You knew it was going to happen. The Twins spend a decade rebuilding and have had their shot for the last several years. They couldn’t make it work. Are we looking at another decade of terrible baseball in MN while they get themselves together again? There’s nothing much in the farm system at this point and the big league team doesn’t look like they can compete with the elite teams in the league. If they sign Mauer for the big money he’s sure to get are they going to have the money to pay for the role players they would need around him, let alone buy a couple reliable starters and blow up the bullpen? I doubt it. Rebuild or hover around .500 on the backs of the few good players they have.
nope. not looking for averages. i’m looking for specific games where cuddyer has hit a bases-empty double or home run in a low-scoring or close game — usually, but not always, in the late innings.
Translation: Don’t confuse the issue with facts. I’m only looking for an isolated incidence or two which supports my preconcieved notion. Anything else is noise.
I am completely miffed at this posting. Honestly I am a lifelong Twins fan through and through but at least the hated White Sox are making a play at putting together another WS team. Last I checked they won it in 2005, and made the playoffs last year. It sounds like the Twins are content to sit where they are up in their ivory tower and judge moves by their competitors. Now we will have to wait to see how this Rios acquistion plays out. If it succeeds and he helps lead them into the playoffs, we will cry out “why didn’t we make this move!”, but if he fails we will say “silly Kenny Williams”. This hoping others will fail tactic is getting very old. Too little, too late…
